 We will focus on practical, so far successful experiences on the ground to inform policymaking that supports finding that illusory balance that everybody was drawn as you heard throughout the day. Speaker after speaker has put forward the challenge of balancing sustainable growth with activity. And then of course the house is clearly divided on not only if we should do it, if it's the right thing, I think everybody agrees on that. But how should we move forward to make that triple win happen? Let me invite the eminent panelist to the podium. Let me first invite His Excellency Ulla and Mr. N. I hope I got that pronunciation right to kindly join us up on stage. He is the head of the parliamentary committee for energy and environment in the kingdom of Norway. Norway's instrumental role in tackling climate change needs no further elaboration. The Indonesia-Norway partnership is an exemplary model of how bilateral partnerships can make gains for climate change mitigation and help strengthen target settings for the global community. He will share with us Norway's experience in supporting Red Cross globally and how Norway's efforts help to find the balance for achievement of the triple win. Now I have the privilege of inviting Mr. Pavan Sukte. Pavan has had an extremely diverse career that encompasses work within the private sector, public enterprise and civil society. On topics ranging from banking to biodiversity, his work of experience has contributed to his becoming one of the world's influential voices on the transition to a green economy. He led the process of compiling what are arguably the two most authoritative studies on the green economy and the green economy report and, of course, the path-breaking deep study. We're fortunate to have the opportunity to draw up his knowledge and experience for the purposes of this workshop. Our good friend Andrew Mitchell will be joining us next. He founded and heads the Global Chemistry Programme. GCP is a key interoperator between the scientific community, policy makers and local communities. Andrew is a geologist by training in touch fell in love with the Prophet of the Forest doing great work in Indonesia. It's always a pleasure to have him back here. Amongst many achievements in addition to leading the GCP, he serves as an advisor to governments and international institutions and is a special advisor to the Prince of Wales train forest project. I now invite Rob Robson, who joins us today from Wildlife Works, a 15-year-old project and development company that has successfully used carbon offsets in Kenya to protect communities, forests and wildlife. We look forward to hearing more about how this working model has strengthened social equity, environmental protection and economic growth. We look forward to this being the start of a strengthened collaboration and learning between ASEAN and other Red Cross implementing countries in Africa and Latin America. Last but certainly not least, it is my pleasure to introduce Parvashan Amartono from Piti Rimbau Mahonutama which is currently implementing the Kathingan Big Land Restoration and Conservation Project. Many of you know Parvashan Amartono from his many cast-heading talks on his adventures, all of his adventures. Through innovation, bureaucracy, particularly in getting permits for environmental work. Let me take this opportunity to thank each of our evident panelists for finding the time in their busy schedules to join us here today. We'll see in each of the panelists' presentations today that different innovations generated through different minds and partnerships are crucial to helping us shift the pipeline to achieve social equity, environmental protection and economic growth simultaneously. And with that, let me apologize for not having introduced myself. I have the illusion of grandeur that everybody don't know me. It's really not the case. I am subject to party. I had you an offer. A U.M. system in which it is set up by the Secretary General to support interracial, binary, Red Cross work and ambitions. And I apologize once again for those that I haven't had privilege of meeting before and resuming that you all knew me. Let me set the ground rules for today's discussion. We have about 90 minutes of which we lost 50 for the coffee break. So we have roughly about 75 minutes. And because we have been provided by very many wise people that extremely brave is a person that stands between humans and their dinner. And I don't want to be that person. So we will finish now on time. And so with the 75 minutes, let me suggest that we have five panelists. And each of you could mandate seven minutes each to make your presentations. That will still last 40 minutes for follow-up questions from me as the moderator. But more importantly, from this very distinguished audience that we have today. So that we can have a few questions back and forth to get your points across in a more effective way. And there now it's clarified as well as possible. So let me stop there and start by inviting His Excellency Kula, who I was doing, to make his remarks. Excellency. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for inviting me in here. It's my first time in India. And looking at the good examples, I have already had a great pleasure to be able to jump in the province from Saturday and Sunday. And also looking at one of the great examples that you can have for small villages when it comes to preserving the rainforest at the same time as you can make it through the lives of the people who live in India. I was fortunate here yesterday to visit this small village called Senamat in Jambi province. And of course, this is the great challenge that they have. Everyone agrees that when it comes to preserving the rainforest, when it comes to the great program, this is not just about preserving the carbon and to fight global warming and climate change. Of course, it has to do most of all with the people that live in the forest. How can we create a system? How can we have a systemic approach to work these problems so that you can get results so that you can give them the possibility to develop their personal life. And I think they have a problem over and over again on how to combat climate change. And it is several different areas where we work on. Of course, we have to mitigate and reduce our own emissions in our life. It's a broad agreement on that. We have to work on how to develop new technologies, how to develop new markets, how can we set an example for all the other parts of the world. We work on building more clean energy and a part of also a broader solution within Europe, how can the Europe also make it and produce their emissions. But also it's important for us to be part of a broader international solution. So there is also a broad agreement that we should work with rainforest countries and be a partner in how to reduce the destruction of how to keep the rainforest in the world. So far we have a well established cooperation with Brazil and there is a well established cooperation with Indonesia. Or I should rather the other way around, what is important is that it's a cooperation from Indonesia with us. Because for Norway this is something where we can be, our decision is that we should be a partner with Indonesia, but it has to be Indonesia, Brazil, other countries that has to make the choices themselves. And for us it's important that this, what we can help with is to make the systematic tools how can we develop better in governance, how can we look at the broader, how will it be, we work towards these particular results in the end. And we have agreement with Indonesia where there is a letter of attention, there is a three phase approach, there is a first phase, one part of that is of course also that we have a red plus agency established in Indonesia. So we can have, how can we get better maps so that they can agree on how the situation is today. And then we have to work with Indonesia on every level on how to be, and how can we develop particularities to get results. And that is of course when you get to the third phase, if we can establish the right systems, there will also be a larger input when it comes to the transfer of resources from all levels of the Indonesian. What is important for my constituents, and my constituents in Norway is that this is something that has to benefit the people in the countries where you receive the resources. And it's very important that we can show that you get concrete results. There's too many efforts in international, environmental policies as such where you end up with some good examples. But we did not manage to bring these examples together so that we get all the results that come to the beauty, the country of course as such, and the world as such needs. So that is why I am here, is to learn more about these problems. And it's about also, of course, seeing what is the next step to develop this cooperation with Indonesia. And hopefully, if we do this right, we can also be an example for how we can make this cooperation between other countries and also other countries both on the side where you contribute the resources but also on the receiving side. A vision behind Norway's global support, which is a reckless call, which is not unknown. I think many of the stakeholders in the group are already aware of it. But I think it is very reassuring to hear from you as the head of the Parliamentary Committee on Energy and Environment and that's the new parliament. I think it really strengthens the resolve of all of us in this role to keep pursuing the reckless call with even more vigor and enthusiasm. With that, let me invite Andrew to, you know, Andrew, the past is very important. And of course, we will be hearing from Rob and Father Sonon on their trials and evaluations and successes and achievements in pursuing the reckless call in their respective domains. But it might be also useful to focus a bit on the future. You know, looking through the, looking last and the past, what would we expect in the future and have that possibilities that are exciting and that are rewarding. So, Andrew. Can I go on there? I think you already got seven minutes. I'm going to take you through this pretty quick. So, as it's the end of the day, I thought it would be nice to have some pictures because I know you're all very tired of listening to people like us out here. So, here's a picture. And I'm going to show you some examples of the work I've been doing in Australia. And I think they can work very well here in Indonesia. It was 35 years ago, a war, when I first came to Indonesia and worked in Borneo and the forests were very, very different then. Not all of them, but like that yet. But that's the effect of cattle ranching over the last 20 years in accurate state, right over at the western side of the Amazon. We're all talking about landscapes. We're talking about landscapes. So, how do we come up with a landscape solution that is good for forests, good for what's going on in the landscape from a business point of view and commodities, and good for the communities? That's the big challenge. And if you were in the last session, you would have heard a lot of talk about green bonds. Well, green bonds are very nice in theory, but how would it work on the ground? I'm going to give you a two or three-minute session of how that might actually work because an investor came to me once and he said, what could you do with a billion dollars? And nobody really answers that question in this context. We're all thinking about projects of 10 or 20 million of project size, world bank scale projects on the ground. How could you really have a billion dollar project for forests? Well, here's three areas that we're looking at that, funded by the German government, looking at how you create a landscape scale green bond that would funnel the upfront transition costs of agriculture because that's the big problem, the big commodities that are causing deforestation. The barrier. The barrier for that is who pays the upfront transition costs to do it sustainably when there's no premium in the market? Why should I produce sustainable beef, sustainable palm oil or sustainable soy if no one's going to pay me extra for that? So there's a big drop. These are the kinds of people who are working there. Robatackers who sell traditionally in the forest. Farmers who live in the frontier where the forest is degraded. And then the cattle ranchers who live where the forest was gone. All of these have different upfront costs and needs to transition towards sustainability. You take an area like Acre, a whole state. How do you take a whole state from an individual project and jurisdiction and create a green bond for that state? We've been working there for the last two years modeling the transition costs to sustainability of 12 supply chains which include just those three that you've seen that are a lot more. You have to work out the costs of transitioning from good to bad, from business as usual to sustainability. Once you've worked out that upfront cost then who's going to pay for it and is it something the private sector could get interested in? So we look at these three things. Ecosystem services that the forest provides. Those are things like water, biodiversity, carbon, etc. Sustainability of supply chains and resilient livelihoods. All that goes into the model. If you work it out, it roughly comes out it would take about a billion dollars upfront to transition a whole of Acre which you would save around about two billion in ecosystem services. Now, the problem is the two billion in ecosystem services is phantom economics today. No one will pay you for the cattle. No one will pay you for the water services or the biodiversity. There's no real market for that. That's the transition that red is trying to make and it's proving tough. But in commodities there are huge markets, vast turnovers of commodities. That's the real economy so that's easier for investors to look at. How do we turn these two things together? So this is what we're looking at in the green bombs. We're looking at patient capital and we model this over 10 years, 20 years and look at the returns. The return looks like somewhere around about 14% but here's the big problem. We are dealing on the one hand with natural ecosystems and on the other capital that converts them largely for food and other uses. The value of the supply chains of that conversion process is 135 billion a year. Whereas the amount of money we're putting up to look after the forest of the natural capital is about 1.1 million a year. This is a hugely unequal contest. For investors to get involved in doing that process better we have to change the rules of the game. That means not just amount of money because you're never going to have enough money to beat that 135 million. We have to look at changing the fundamental rules of the game. That means tariffs, subsidies and the cost of credit and things like this need to change. If you can move those levers the market will find a way to do it all in its own way. We can talk more about that on the panel. Now let's go to a totally different end of the scale. If you produce all this money in these benefits how do you get it down to local people in a very equitable way? This is community MRV. The communities have a huge potential role to play here in verifying at the local level what's going on. Safety guys and monitoring, verification and reporting MRV. Got that slide in the wrong way around. So how do we do that? Well we've been working with communities in several parts of Latin America using hand-held phones and special software they develop that collect information all around their communities. You've got to have the top-down MRV from satellites meeting the bottom-up MRV and safeguards coming from communities. Here's that query again. You start with computers. You put all of our phones around the state and you set up these systems. There's no Wi-Fi out there so you have to bring it all back to base and then put it up in the cloud. We then come up, we measure carbon and forest change, ecosystem services, community well being. We have indicators developed over the last three years for all of these, all developed by the communities themselves. Then put it out into the cloud of data, the GIF and the train the communities to use it. We end up with a vast amount of data on forest change, how the communities are well-being is going and ecosystem services. Small areas like this are all plotted by the communities. We have photographs they take showing you what's there. This is the ground truth of a satellite MRV that national governments will leave. It's a huge new opportunity, I believe, for communities in job creation. Here, who owns the data? What the communities do? And you have to work out what they are prepared to release to the outside world. This is something that you have to learn. More of this we can discuss during the panel. Those are just a few insights, though, at a macro and a micro scale that I hope will give us food for thought. Thank you, Andrew, for that wonderful presentation. Connect me to the macro and the micro and also demonstrating that big ideas and small projects all kind of coexist within the same space leading to outstanding results. And I think here we are working with different partners on designing something of a green born possibly for Central Kalimantan and these are lessons that we would heavily rely on to not make the same mistakes or benefit from the results that have been there. Thank you very much for bringing those insights into the conversation today. Let me now learn to walk wildlife works from wildlife works. It's a great project with some very, very insightful results. So thank you. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I, like Andrew, I'm going to really go down to the micro and talk from a project level about what we've learned on the Casagal Corridor Red Project and we'll do a very quick presentation again that introduces that project to you and looks at some of the lessons that we've learned since we started this project about five years ago. That's where we are south-eastern Kenya in the semi-arid salvo ecosystem. We set up wildlife works 15 years ago to try and protect wildlife and to try and create work for the communities that live in and around these wildlife areas. The project encompasses 200,000 hectares and is a wildlife corridor between the Salvo National Park and the 14 blue branches that make up the project accounting area are owned by 4,300 families and there are 100,000 other community members that live around the project area. There's our project area between the two halves of Salvo on the top right there and Salvo Wet's National Park in the bottom. The centre which is in the centre of the corridor which is the element of migration between the two halves of the protected area. Threats to our project area principally unplanned expansion of Slash and Burn agriculture commercial charcoal production about 4,000 bags of charcoal leave the area around Tassagao per day, heading to Morfasa someone's exported as well commercial bush meat poaching the loss of wildlife and of course ivory poaching. The recent upsurge we are losing about 10 elephants a week in around this ecosystem at the moment. So what we've learnt is really Mark Burroughs earlier was talking about de-risking red and de-risking green what we can do for a project level is to make sure that the way red operates on the ground in the field with the communities, with the landowners with the governments is to make sure that it's operated in a fair, transparent and open way. The income distribution in Tassagao is spread three ways money goes directly to the landowners and goes to the project operations the day-to-day nuts and bolts managing the project the annual verification MRV etc. money goes to the community what we've learnt it's extremely important that the community can choose how to spend that money themselves on their behalf and to report back so the way we spend the money where the community spends the money the revenue comes in goes through a trust goes through a transparent committee system and then goes to the community based organisations who actually physically handle the cash community projects our community decided to put 40% of the money they made into bursary schemes there's 2,500 children now who are sponsored through secondary and tertiary education ours is a very arid area so water catchments water storage, water distribution is extremely important and finally educational infrastructure we built 17 classrooms and schools last year from an operational point of view forest protection, putting trees back into areas where they have been lost through charcoal burning creating a different way of making charcoal so that we're not just banning something that is essential to the community and to the country at large and protection by the community of their own lands challenges the unpredictability of the sales of carbon credits is one of the largest challenges we face if we have a good month and money goes through the system if we have a bad month then that's how it is and the community then struggle to protect their environment when they don't have money going through the benefit sharing system how much is enough how much money going in the top end of this system is enough for a community to protect their forest the forest area is relatively small compared to the number of communities that live around it measuring the additional benefits that red brings is also very difficult what we're focusing on in the Casagout area where the sale of carbon credits being very difficult is the other things that red can do to social cohesion the added security can bring to an area the land tenure, land security and alternative sources of income we're investing the little money we have in eco-routorism in industrialization building small eco factories putting together women's groups looking at expanding markets, commodities distribution of products that are made in and around the project area so utilizing the money we have so that the community has something to pull back on where red revenue is low or after the 30 year expiry of the Casagout Corridor red project and that's all I have to say for now I will be happy to answer questions on the panel about the expectations of the project operators and the community thank you very much Rob for for outlining those challenges that are epic for those that believe in the core and persisting I think that's a great source of inspiration to all of us let me come back home and request Parasono to share his experiences from his inspiring work in Indonesia so would you like to speak from there please good afternoon ladies and gentlemen Basantia thank you for having me it's an honor to be here with you it's funny I was just talking with Andrew when I started this journey about six years ago I actually met Andrew as my inspiration I remember I went to New York to learn about red class developers in Indonesia my journey which is our company journey started in 2008 I mean I see there are actually three things with the background of a banker that I used to work with I was always a banker myself in New York and came back here and I decided I saw this new thing about red class you know a carbon bed so something just blinked in my eye my brain is like oh this is going to be a new commodity in town it's going to substitute equity bond but there's 2007 and it still blinked we have to have that so when I did that I started learning knowing that I'm a banker so I looked at how can I make money and also doing the right thing and I met my partner he came to me and they said oh I'm doing this red class it's a triple bottom line triple bottom I was always a banker I was always like good for the profit people, planet and I said you can't have it so I was like okay I was just entertaining his idea and I was into them and suddenly after I realized this is actually a new proposition this is going to be a new paradigm of the policy initially you have to have a right to manage a land so we decided to company a 5 week system restoration license at that time there isn't really no procedures to do it so we had to do it in 2008 it took us merely 6 years to get the license 6 years until the original I guess 6 last October 2013 it was about 5 5 plus years almost 6 years I think the reason why it took me so long than I've ever really told people is because the license is for us to restore the concern for us and I think typically in the licensing part of Indonesia it's quite common to give someone for people to get your license processed last year so believing that I will not this is a good cause for me to do this a good business and I'm coming from somebody from Indonesia if you ask me 7 years ago you don't have to brag about it you'll get things done I said that's impossible seriously I would say that's impossible we get caught on a street as in red light and we end up driving the police but I think at that time I thought okay this is a journey my journey so I started and I did it technically I would pay anything this whole process but it just took me 5 years but that's the problem that a lot of people are having it's a balance between being patient and willing to wait and this is the bottom line of the problem you start seeing a lot of calm all the other sectors that are seeing this as an opportunity cost loss so that's one thing that we have to start thinking if you want to change this whole paradigm there should be a better government because it would be better transparency and I'm glad I did this is an example that actually it can be done in this country so I really put a lot of hope for this country that it should happen hopefully with the new government we are changing in Indonesia if you see some people are half glass I'm half glass full with this LOI I think it's a great thing for us because we start talking about it without the LOI we're going to be talking about community rights technical issues now so I think the Norway for having that whole commitment in Indonesia from our perspective there are two things that we have to do one is the licensing secondly it's a community that's where we've got to work for 60 years with the licenses for 60 years so the area that we try to conserve is about 200,000 hectares in center still in a great condition actually the minister of environment of Norway visited our site a couple years back when he was here so when I made the pledge to do this six years ago I said that for community it has to be continuous we cannot just say that my license is not there I'll see you later after the license is done and I'll see you again so I think we were just crazy enough just crazy and bold enough and we do all this in the community we talk to them we go to one village of the villages we visited all 34 villages even before we got the license and we were asking all the socialization of what we want to do and all of them come with a very similar theme it's about annual rights it's about land it's about boundaries so thankfully the past five years we've given that we are working so hard funding including from Norway funding of something geos in our area to do the participatory mapping so from a private sector from a project of one is a good thing because it's got good boundaries and it's always village mapping it's over time you can get it done so I think from a community perspective the thing is sometimes benefit is not about money it's about what can they do whether it's a certainty of land it's a sustainable life or a new type of life that they have so to give you an example when I visited a few villages 12 months ago all of them once said about this whole thing about mapping nobody knows where we are so we finally get it done in addition to that we also have I also see a lot of protection for our town in the area and I think we were lucky enough to start getting some attention that we work with a UK furniture company to actually assemble a return basket from the community working with the small corporate of the community and ship one container that's very important from a community perspective not only that the company we sort of I always believe that never over deliver so it's always about over deliver 100 pounds so I think that's what we did and that's how we get a lot of support I think we probably did I would say that we are proud to be one of those few companies as a CEO of a company we visited all villages we visited 34 villages we socialized with them every time I talk to them they are three principles that I always follow as a cutting down project we believe in transparency very transparent is a good thing to the communities two, because whatever I told them like whatever I told you it's actually the same that's how transparent I am I even need to give them my hand code number so that's how transparent I am and then secondly I told them you have to be equitable whatever we do has to be equitable because if it's not equitable if you make all the money that I don't whatever the benefit then I will leave so let's find some equitable only over time you can have that kind of choice so the third thing is I think unlike the donor money right plus is there's accountability you have to be comfortable with what you do so this is not money from heaven but this is something that lets work together so when I talk to them they understand what I'm trying to say a lot of people think communities are communities are a liability a lot of companies actually I would think that community is an asset if you dare to be transparent to them it's all about being transparent and the good governance among us so I think that's a lesson that I learned in terms of working with communities I would think that the bureaucracy and the government is the toughest part community is the easiest part and of course the market is going to be the toughest part too but I think as long as you are just being transparent and being honest you can actually do this so of course given that the persistence that we have the consistency that we have I've done for the past five years to show that we have that kind of commitment so that's a lesson that lesson learned from my side I think the myth of not being able to work with communities has been broken the myth that we don't have to drive all the time has been broken so it's a new paradigm change this is what you will see in Indonesia the next five, ten, twenty years from now I'm the optimist I mean some people say that how are you willing why did you willing to forget for all these five years of making all the money but I said this is about trying to just be crazy and do something at the end I think the satisfaction of not just doing something good so the journey that I started to be honest with you six years ago I was in the form of doing palm oil already I was right there I might be doing palm oil I can guarantee you I probably have about 50,000 years of palm oil now but I didn't but I think the road less travel people say and I think it is the right decision I think it's the right time for Indonesia to show that kind of leadership private sectors that are willing to do it I can tell you that we are not the only one we have a lot of others as well but it's just that we have people a lot of my colleague in my world said that you have to be successful first plus the palm oil and I said I don't mind to be that experimental rival so I think I really hope that in the five years from now we will be sitting here and we will say how how much effort you have made thank you thank you as I said at the beginning there was no exception thank you very much for standing after the system throughout the march of history we have seen that the world has not changed by the masses or the classes the world has changed by people that believe in causes and the ethical foundation of what they believe in and stand up for what is right and so even if it took you five years maybe you have a little less money in your background but it is much better for your country and the generations to follow so thank you for that for talking about communities let me now ask Poman Poman your work in Central Kalimantan breaks another myth that in terms of GDP is perhaps the only indicator of progress as well as in terms of conventional economics but your work clearly shows that that is not true that is perhaps one of the indicators but the more also indicator is the GDP of the poor and I think Pahe was very eloquent in quoting from that work that he was talking in the previous session so would you please share with us your experiences GDP of the poor and how important it is from the context of our conversation today the idea of GDP of the poor was actually born in the Teeble project way back in 2008 in fact it is not a new idea it is just probably a new framing of the idea that the poor in rural conditions and in forest approximate areas do depend a lot on nature so intuitively we all know this but people had not put in the effort to measure quite how much in economic terms I go back to the point that you cannot manage what you do not measure and unless you measure things like the dependence of the poor in forests in economic terms unless there is an economic equation then you are not communicating with policy makers economics has become the language of policy whether we like it or not so we set about doing this some of the preliminary calculations for India, Indonesia and Brazil and thanks to UNDP and UNRK we got the opportunity to work on this in Kalimantantanga so now in Kalimantantanga the forest dependent communities really are four different types of households there are those who live deep in the forest who basically write and gather us and they will live off the hunting and produce the produce to the market they would also have chicken and pigs which they feed and then sell in the market place and then there is the riverside dependent communities who would do all of that gather ratten but also probably use the river for fishing and in some cases for gold mining as well and then there would be the rural communities who would be agriculturalists, maybe small scale palm oil but also collecting ratten and selling it to the forest so what we did and then of course the coal miners as well who grow palm and other such subsist product but also small scale mining coal so we did a full survey of about 180 odd households in Kalimantantanga picking a balance across these four different characteristic types of households and what we found was actually both interesting and heartwarming and also a signal of what it is to have development policy and development planning in conditions like these we found that of course there were cash incomes that these people were working as part time laborer and they were also selling cows and pigs and chicken whatever the local market was and the ratten collect was sold to cash but there was also a consumption it was direct consumption so for instance people would go into the forest using fuel would cook the tarot that they collected from the forest to feed the pigs so therefore the inputs that we like to their pig arrays was free coming directly from nature and they would sell the pigs at the market once they are sizable enough so there was both direct incomes from as was they would eat produce from the forest so there were both direct incomes and indirect incomes coming to them from the forest we did the calculations for them to see what is the ecosystem dependency of these households now I'll point out why is this relevant it's because these are the very same households that you will have to engage when the time comes to implement red plus these are the very same people who you have to connect with and work with to prove to them that in the process of implementing a landscape based red plus which covers not only their fields but also the forest and everything else that is their livelihood that they are benefiting because they already benefit from the basic income in the hands of these poor people specifically when we worked out how much these incomes are here and the statistics that we found for our sample is that in the case of the forest households 77% of the incomes of those households were actually coming directly from nature of course price is zero the economic invisibility of nature if there is any more pertinent and poignant example that it is exactly in the GDP of the world in the case of riverside 86% in the case of the rural households who are also collecting and selling butter 75% in the case of rural households collecting and selling coal still 34% quite high average of all of these households 76% 3 fourths of the income of these rural and forest craftsmen poor households and directly from nature this is not part of any GDP estimate there are some estimates but this is certainly not part of the official statistics in the way that it can be because BPS in Indonesia does collect a lot of this data so it is actually possible to construct a new indicator called the GDP of the poor or if you would like to be more precise the GDP of the rural poor and then see what kind of ways you have of improving that and adding on that fair pricing so that we get a better price for the platinum and the animals that they rear and sell it to the local marketplace and fair pricing is a question of creating communes and cooperatives and providing technology and support on informational pricing it is also possible to add education because not all of these households spend on education and it is also possible to add health services and that really is relevant when you retain what there is and possibly even grow and improve the value of the GDP of the poor at the same time add health education and other income opportunities that is true development destroying the forests destroying their access to their own 75% of their livelihoods that would not be true development and really that is the lesson that we deliver on this exercise in a study that highlights the invisibility of nature that roughly 75% of the income of the poor comes from nature services that can be directly counter both as income and as disposable expenditure as we see in the study and of course we get to work on that study and we do other provinces as well because there are provinces in Central Kalimantan have their own characteristics but there are mountainous provinces like Pakoha that has 40% of the indigenous forest roughly about 100% of the population which of course would again present fascinating insights into how the community is there depending on nature and nature services and thank you very much and I would really like to thank all the panellists for being here very disciplined, thank you very much because we still have quite a bit of time a big applause to our panellists and thank you very much to the lady there let's start with I have a role in the project that Andrew mentioned about community MRV my question is actually for Rob this panel as I understand it I was wondering if you could reflect a bit on how easy or cheaper it was to set up your activities in the DRC after your experiences in Kenya was there some lessons learned there that made your whole experience better and easier to scale up we have done and we always will do for that project so we see it very much as a groundbreaking project and a place to test things out try and get things right so I think using that project as a demonstration for communities for leaders, for politicians for project partners of all types in other areas has been very valuable to us we don't mind if anyone comes to our project even other project developers, other governments we've had delegations from all over the world now and we try and find the best practices we try and engage with as many institutions organizations, universities big tanks people that we can to try and make sure the Castigal project runs as well as it possibly can we try out new ideas and we try and spread those ideas out as much as we can thank you Rob next question yes please thank you panelist my name is Haradhan Monique from the forest and you and I are from one of the others my question that is he from his presentation I learned the benefits distributed to landowners community people and project implementation so my question is that what is the amount of benefit per year and what is the how much percentage of distributing the benefits to the owners, community and project and these benefit is sufficient for their livelihood this is too wrong and another Mr. Darshan Haradhan that is they got license about 60 years and managing 2 large hectares of forest lands in Kalimantan and he has suggested about the party should be mapping so my question is there this is a good idea the party should be mapping but this map is ballistic and everybody obey this map Mr. is there the people income is about 77% or 70% come from nature so and other that is 25% from which sectors and these are sufficient for livelihood thank you very much thank you for those questions I will start with Rob and you have the questions so it is very interesting your question I stood recently with two of the directors of the Althelia climate fund on top of the Taita hills next to a little forest called Ngangao that forest is 2 hectares very very special forest for that community but it shrunk down to such a small area we stood there with our back to the forest looking out at the community of about 17,000 people which you could see from the little outprop where we were and that was where we started asking ourselves how much is enough how much revenue needs to be generated by that little 2 hectare piece of forest for those 17,000 men women and children to feel that that forest is special enough to them we still don't have an answer to that question I think it's going to take us the next 30 years to work it out but what we have found is that this money that's coming in if it is spread out properly transparently in a fair way and the community feel that they are getting something for their community which is fair, transparent and is coming from an asset which is important to them then that forest will survive the amount of money physically per hectare that they seem to require as a community to look after that asset is very small when we arrived there 15 years ago one acre of land was worth about $7 which is a terrifyingly small amount of money it just goes to show that we as human beings only really put value to something which will bring us something back in again we only love what actually has a physical value and puts money in our pocket and send our kids to school and so on and so forth we spread the money out in three ways once the contractually goes to the landowners not every person in the community is a landowner these lands were split and apportioned 40 years ago a lot of people have moved into these semi-arid areas in the last 40 years so if I was God I would probably take the land off of all of the present landowners and redistribute it to the modern landowners in a fairer way but of course we can't do that so by spreading to the landowners and then to the community so that everybody sees a benefit is the best way we feel of protecting the biodiversity of the land there how much money we spend to run the projects depends on how much on how much protection needs to be done by ourselves in a utopian dream we wouldn't have a single ranger we have 120 today that number is falling down and of course Switzerland even Switzerland has a police force so we will need some form of community control of the asset even if the amount of money from the revenue is enough in the community's eyes to put some numbers to it we have 1.2 million tonnes of carbon credits if we sell them all for six dollars we have seven odd million dollars it costs us about a hundred 1.5 million dollars a year to run the operations that's the first amount of money we don't have the operational side covered then the project will collapse one third contractually goes to the landowners the rest of the money goes to the community so if we sell all of our carbon credits then it works out very well there's probably about 20% of the operations one third to the landowners and the rest of the money 50% say to the community thank you so much would you like to repeat the question I was not very clear with your question could you kindly repeat the question you would like to know more about what you did on participatory mapping for the area that you run the ecosystem restoration project so I guess just to give you I mean I don't have the mapping our area it's about it's an oval shape 100 kilometers from north to south and then about 30 kilometers from east to west and then if you look at it technically just looking at the concession area there's really no villages because it's peatland, it's wetland but we have that particular ecosystem was surrounded by two river system so along the river we have all communities and villages all the villages so what we do is we start having what we do is the local NGO gets some funding from NORAD Clinton Foundation as well as USAID what they do is they have a participatory mapping with communities so they sit down they go by boundary by boundary between villages and after villages and they decided to have that map digitized and they even have the head of I guess the village head stamping it and agree but that process itself takes 6 months at least because you have to go a lot of focus group discussion you have to meet the villages you have to point, you have to go what I'm trying to say is when I envisioned red plus 6 years ago I thought it was going to be 1 year, 2 years should be done unfortunately this is one of the business I think we as a believer of red plus and green economy somehow have to start thinking how to do some kind of public funding while a project developer is doing it because realistically I think it's going to take at least 4 years microchinsky in Kasingau has been there for 15 years we've been here, we've been there for 5-6 years so no private sector players are willing to invest that much time and money without any public funding so it has to be some kind of bridging on that so I think it's a long process but I think it's a process that is worth doing because that creates a lot of certainties in terms of getting the map done among villages, communities and the private sector using that map that we can have more clarity of where they can actually do their livelihood they can even do agriculture they can do for either and then that will not be stir our activities seeing the villagers are some of the villages feel like this is my boundary but I think, I always believe that at the end, communities are very honest they're honest and then they're honest brokers so they always get at the end with the whole process talking and discussing they will get it so basically our company is not interfering in any of this process it's an NGO and help that thing start thank you Baban and the question was what are the other 25% or 24% in terms of the we did have much the other 25% firstly we have to look at direct and indirect income households pigs and cows and sell them to the local market that is cash income which is not considered to be part of coming from nature the only element of that is the feed that they get free from the forest the feed for the pigs and the cows so the actual sale of animals is a large part of the household income then on top of that these riverside and forest households are also sometimes being employed as part-time laborers for example it is being done quite often and then if you move to the the field areas, the agricultural areas they are small scale farmers of palm oil and various cash crops that happen to grow in their blocks these are broadly speaking the main elements and of course they are digging for coal in small scale way in places and in other places if they are on the river some households have the equipment and some communities have the equipment for gold mining which is not as limited as you might think so typically the kind of incomes we have in the other countries between two most of the populations are between 2 and 4 million rupees per month total which means not the cash income but the total income so 2 million rupees is basically like less than $200 per month so that's the kind of typical range and of course the answer is they do need more I mean they are not at a level where you can consider them well to do but the point is they manage at that level Thank you Pawan Yes please Thank you very much for the opportunity my name is Garland and I'm from World Resources Institute in Indonesia I would like to ask a question from Mr Darsono so based on your explanation it seems like you are the champion of not only green economy but also clean economy so you do business in a clean way so I want to ask especially as an Indonesian citizen based on your calculation how much profit did you get or are you sure you lost when you did the clean way to do business compared if you did not wait for 5 years Thank you He wants to answer the opportunity cost What is the lack of it I guess when I started this 6 years ago like again I was on the forum doing palm oil just to give you an example if I decided to do palm oil then I would assume that we have maybe 15,000 hectares 15,000 hectares is probably $150 million now so that's the opportunity cost but again that's still a lot of struggle of course I don't have hindsight but I think if you look at the business communities especially our generation we actually want to do business the right way ethically as well as environmental more ethically than green economy because some of them are not just not aware because at the end you start looking at all these people who get caught by the KTK corruption eradication commission and they go to jail for 10-15 years so it's a good system now in a way if you go to jail for 2 years maybe it's worth doing but if it's 10-15 years it's not worth doing anymore a lot of private sectors start thinking and an example that somebody that is so close to the president end up going to jail it's also an example so I think the community wants it it's just that it takes 2 to tango as a term but every private sector is not private then we have the same level of fear but that can only be done with the better governance, law enforcement and we're optimistic it's moving in that direction maybe 5 years from now with the new government coming in because at the end the punishments start coming if the punishment is not here if the enforcement is not here I will not say so but if you look at the past 12 months you have ministers become suspect you have parliament members go to jail you even have the head of constitutional court that is already soon to be jail so you get all these people and then private sector is easy it's about certainty of doing business if we don't have to bribe and we can still do business we will do that that's a simple because it's cost saving we cannot go to jail thank you I think I want to share a little anecdote here the first time I came to Indonesia in 2006 in my earlier incarnation as the even recovery coordinator of tsunami with Pa Kunturo as my counterpart and when I met him for the first time I said and I introduced myself I said what is your biggest challenge Dr. Kunturo I still wasn't used to the Pa concept so I said Dr. Kunturo what is your biggest challenge so he was reading a copy of the tempo magazine which he passed on to me and in that there was a beautiful article about corruption in India Indonesia and China somebody had done a beautiful comparison and it started by saying India which is my country of origin it said in India corruption is under the table in China it is over the table and in Indonesia it includes the table and so you can well imagine my my consternation I am meeting the minister for the first time introducing myself as the person that is taking over the UN's billion dollar program and this is what he said this is my biggest challenge this is my biggest opportunity as well if we can deliver this together with your help in managing the stakeholders in coordinating them and being our brain trust the ideas people bringing all the ideas together and I say this with a very clear conscience when I left three years later and even now till now if you google Ache tsunami recovery it will be very difficult for you to find anybody talking about corruption anybody talking about mismanagement anybody talking about lost opportunities everybody talks in glowing terms about Indonesia of course there were actors like Pakantaro who were designing examples of Indonesia's leadership under SPY and the president but more importantly it is about the people of Indonesia it is about the public of Indonesia showing the way to the world that despite all these insurmountable challenges we can actually do it and of course as the head of the UN I feel humbled to have been a small part of that success but coming back to that I think you are absolutely right that the tide has turned it is fantastic the constitutional code head is going to jail parliamentarians there are ministers that I met with when I was the head of the UN for the tsunami recovery that are actually being investigated possibly end up in jail and have been jailed there are ministers in that cabinet so this is very encouraging because this happens when people turn the corner we are not going to accept this anymore and politicians listen to the people and that is why it is an empowering process and so thank you for being at the vanguard of that process even if the opportunity cost was 150 million dollars thank you very much any further questions yes Tim yes thank you very much this is officer from the UN red program I would like to ask the panel to reflect a bit more on how we can merge the experience from pilot projects with what hopefully will become a true world performance of red class one series and international human place because it is worth recalling that red class did not really exist until last year it was a warshow rule book I was adopted at the last part that first laid down the ground rules for financial transactions between countries all we had until then or until now are pilot and demonstration activities so red only is a few months old actually and of course Paris the cop will be very decisive to have an international regime in place how do you see the pilot and demonstration activities I think there is 40 alone in Indonesia merge with the international regime and the face that I will have in Indonesia thank you Tim and I think it's a very very interesting question because as we all know proof of applicability is not proof of scale so how do we transition that from projects to programs to landscapes and let me start by by asking our friend from Norway and give your Indonesian name Paula who would kindly reflect upon how we could bring all of this together in real terms into a mission reduction because that's the conversation at the end of the day whether it is in terms of concepts or policies or programs it all ends up being a conversation about a mission reduction so let me start with the honorable member Paula I think that is the key question I think it's wrong to think that this is about finding one mechanism that works in every country and all over the world I think you have to realize that India also is very important the local businesses are very important what is done globally also the pilot programs are very important in itself all the work that is being done but then in the end we have to realize that if we are going to make this into a scale it takes hard work above all that takes also political leadership because you cannot get around that you have to make the legal framework you have to create the business of opportunities that drives this in the right direction and as also the member of the parliament and the position I have I know that one thing and the first part where everyone is in the discussion the debate is important the first part is of course to find the goals that you want to reach you have to set your goal but then secondly when you are in the parliament you also know that and the devil is always in the detail you really have to work hard to find those mechanisms and I think that is the part where the Norwegian experience I think that what we are trying to do is to work with Indonesia to work with Brazil how do we make those how do we set the frameworks because first you have to set the common goals you have to get the right maps you have to look at what legal changes do you need and they will be separate from country to country and of course it is a dynamic political environment and it will change also over time so you have to deal with different political leaderships throughout the time where we have to work with this but I don't know it is first of all it has to start believing in that it is possible and then it has to be a true co-operation between the countries where you have the rainforest where you have the facilities that is the only thing that we can be we can help the transition go smoother we can help with developing the different necessary agendas and we can also help financially but in the end it has to be decisions that have to be taken nationally regionally and locally in the different countries transparency is a key accountability is a key and it has to insist on in the end that you have the necessary results so that we can also go back and show that what we have been helping with is working but it is hard work Thank you so much I think just to reflect a bit and to add to what the Honourable Head of the Parliamentary Committee mentioned from my interaction with our Norwegian friends and our Indonesian friends because being the head of the UN breakfast office it is kind of you are a predestined but you are equally engaged and what I see is a virtuous partnership and for all of us who were at the opening this morning the President mentioned two sterling achievements the moratorium and the significant drop in deforestation rates and the creation of the National Red Cross Agency I think there is no doubt in anybody's mind as to these are the byproducts of the engagement that came out of the letter of intent which further strengthened the President's reserve in his dream of making this a 26.41 economy or a 7% sustainable growth economy and what have you so I think that has worked out very well and I think the country is poised to leapfrog into jurisdictional red in a grand scale and at the presence of all of you from different parts of Asia and the rest of the world here in support of the conversation in Indonesia is actually proof of the fact that the world believes in Indonesia and it is for Indonesia to deliver with those words let me turn to Andrew to offer in his final remarks because we just have about 5 minutes so I'm going to be each to you and wrap it up Well I think one of the key things to answer your question is leadership we need leadership in three areas we need leadership from government not least like Norway we need a kind of red shockwave around the world more of those and that's what Norway did it's not just about the money it's about the wellness of money and it changed the whole game red has been in a kind of a party we've had an amazing party over the last few years I know you say it's only just because but a lot of us have been working on it since long before 2007 before it was called red but we've got a bit of a hangover and it's time for a big double express for red because unless the private sector the big institutional private sector is going from it and only the voluntary market is really going like Casigarh these are the people who are keeping it alive and then of course we've got this bubble called the UNFCC negotiation process where red has made tremendous progress once it's slow in other areas red is really working well so I agree with you but to the outside world it needs a big stimulus package so that's one of the things we've got to work on in the run up to Paris to operate on that in the corporate sector you're dealing with a sumo wrestler and what we've done with the sumo wrestler of agriculture is beat it on the head for years now we've got it's attention now we need to put out the hand of friendship and that is what is happening here in Indonesia there's no turning back look at what Wilmar and Dave look at what Golden Agri is doing these are sending the shock waves in the private sector in Indonesia and thirdly we need the industrial sector to get engaged they've been largely silent on these issues for years the words natural capital do not appear in the language of our business schools or in the private sector boardrooms that's going to change finally I would say we need Indonesia to lead as well why? because as you said to me we can go from zero to hero in Indonesia it's the place where the biggest change can happen it's like where Brazil was 10 years ago everyone's waking up this is kind of a crazy thing we're doing it's time to change I see that happening in Indonesia we can see Caltech moving to become a great place where you can go from ISPO regulation now then to HCVF then to RSPO let's make that a shining example for the world of how you can make the change thank you for those words of confidence thank you good final thoughts answering Tim again participation I think is how the projects can really help in the sub-national process a project race-red is down and dirty it's with the community they are the project developers, they are the project partners and I think a jurisdictional level is a lot higher up but having the project nest seamlessly into this process and having the lessons learned having the participation that communities have put into these projects all over the jurisdiction taken into account when the jurisdiction is being developed is very important I think they are really the projects are the link with the people on the ground with the fly diversity with the ecosystems that they're trying to protect thank you Rob thank you just to echo I think to speak of Indonesia I think I mean President Yudu and I have a great speech but you know it's the next president's job to show the leadership to execute so I really think that it's time for us to do it stop talking about the rhetoric stop talking about it and just do it and if you are transparent, if you're there to have better governance you can never go wrong with that you can always do it as long as you have a mission to protect the forest and to do the right thing it's doable I mean if I a project developer can convince the communities we would do all this math and they'll convince it's also the central government's job to convince the bupati that there's a benefit for it you know all of us are responsible here to show that there's actually a benefit of doing red plus and some people can be skeptical but if we continue to do it and we have that persistency and there's small quick wins one after the others as we speak the whole wave is monitored it's going to be a tipping point where we realize that what we are doing now is the right thing to do thank you Pa I think it's more time to move from rhetoric to action Paavan what are your thoughts? I said natural capitalism is it a buzzword or a breakthrough? I need questions because the difference between a breakthrough and a buzzword it's not the excitement that is at the beginning of both but actually whether one is action or just thought it off and I really hope it is a breakthrough thank you they say that the dividing line between foolishness and bravery is very thin so we have to prohibition to bravery by succeeding it seems like success let me take this opportunity to thank our imminent panelists for their very insightful and rich thoughts on how we can move forward we know that the traditional relationships between government, companies, academia and people are not sufficient to help us address climate change when we add on the additional challenges of population growth, resource depletion economic inequity financial exclusion the impediments to a better future can appear overwhelming and if we go about business as usual there is no feasible way to tackle all these issues partially because the existing system has generated many of the problems and certainly because doing the same thing will not yield different results Einstein most famously said doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result is madness so let's move on to the better ideas that deserve our attention and command us to do better the success of Red Cross rests on being able to approach a variety of contexts like peak lands holistically to understand the incentives driving different stakeholders to understand our bottom line imperative to support all three dimensions social, environmental and economic and to engage everyone in being solution seekers and to encourage us to do today to ensure the recognition and exercise of both rights and obligations what is presented today will have broader relevance for other countries in Asia and beyond and I thank all of you, our distinguished audience and as well as our esteemed panelists for sharing their important experiences in doing so and last but not the least I have an announcement to make requested by C4 our organizers that from 7 to 8pm in Java room we have another side event for those of you that are interested I would strongly encourage you to attend this it's entitled implementing FAO's Global Plan of Action for the conservation, sustainable use and development of forest genetic resources in Asia this side event will inform participants of the key findings of the first of the world's forest genetic resources report which will be released in summer 2014 and the associated Global Plan of Action for the conservation sustainable use and development of forest genetic resources so thank you very much for being here today really appreciate your presence and contributions, thank you