 It's four o'clock, right? Shall we begin? Okay, so this is going to be slightly interesting for me This is a slight experiment in terms of presentations and I'm going to I'm going to dedicate it first of all to my dead friend who suggested that I use open office So I was just finishing off the slides and I emphasize finishing off Rather than actually starting to write them about an hour ago And I got halfway through and open office like did the normal thing of crashing and when it's open source software You know that it's your fault in some way right that you like when when like a PC crashes like running windows It's Bill Gates's fault right when a Mac crashes. Well, that's just the way that Steve Jobs created the world And when Linux crashes you should have submitted a patch possibly six months ago, right? So so it is all my fault and I agree to that and as pennants there are a few things I'm not going to do in this talk One is actually kill my friend live on stage because that's unpleasant even for Defcon To though good I would have a little demo sticker on my my program bit then if that was the case I totally owned his corpse the other thing. I'm not going to do is describe how the EFF works If you'd like to know that And I'm afraid that's a top secret that only the NSA is allowed to know all people coming to the ask the EFF talk, so I'm not going to do that what I am going to do is try to explain how if you Anywhere in the world Can set up something akin to a digital rights organization in the comfort of your own parents cellar And I'm going to do this by citing examples of what I did in this kind of context Can people hear me because I feel like I'm I'm sort of making beautiful love to this microphone But but okay great. All right. I may start dancing around and playing the prices right on the other one shortly Okay, this is the first thing open office did it managed to make my first slide look like it's redacted So I'm very happy about that, but these are the old EFF logos if any of you have bought the new t-shirts and I'm really pleased that Defcon is the kind of place where We at the EFF appear to just beg for money every 15 seconds If you do go out and buy the new t-shirts They actually have a new logo and this is my new Slide mechanism, which is I'm actually using finder mainly for my slide presentations from now on it's proprietary But you know, it's a filing system. So it's proven and we have we have a sixth little icon there Which is the international one which is I live in that icon if you double click on that my head appears And I'm the international coordinator for the EFF. Bonjour Um, what does that involve? Well in order to explain anything about the EFF I do have to run through our standard shrink wrap NDA EULA As you can see, oh, we can't really see what with the font and everything But by looking glancing or thinking about this PowerPoint slide basically I own a copyright on thoughts inside your head and and they're protected by a Technical protection device covered by the AMCA. Okay. This is how the EFF really works For one thing we don't necessarily work the way that a lot of people think we do There's often a theory that the EFF sort of does everything. It's like the paramilitary wing of of I don't know boring policy wonks And you know, you frequently see this on slash dot where somebody will post saying There's a there's a poor guy here and I think the NPA is killed It's kitten and and they'll say send in the EFF and we don't actually do that anymore We we primarily these days deal in what's known as impact litigation within the United States Which is to say we very do very narrowly defined legal actions in order to change the law within the US we have about 20 or so Lawyers who are experts in various different areas and I'm sure if you've ever been to ask the EFF You'll you'll see the caliber of the people that we have And what we try to do is exact change from From within the system rather than the paramilitary kind of coup kind of plan. We leave that to people in Washington so what we What that that tends to mean is a consequence is that? Strangely enough we've been drawn more and more into the international arena. Now. Why is that? Well? There's a small feature of of the global information system That's known as policy laundering which is basically if Congress doesn't give you what you want You go away for a bit and then you come back into Washington and say yeah, but dad said it was okay Where dad in this context is for instance wipe out the World Intellectual Property Organization or possibly the EU? And the biggest example of this is something that we all have close to our hearts Which is the DMCA the DMCA was actually proposed as as a bill in Congress in around about 1996 it was called the National Information Infrastructure Copyright Protection Act and it was attempt to head the internet off at the past by copyright holders It was pretty much laughed out of Congress. It fell at the first hurdle so The rights holders organizations sort of scurried around the back of Congress went to wiper Got the US and many other countries to sign a treaty that basically held pretty much all of the content of that bill And then came back to Congress and said well we have to implement this because of our global obligations So this this is the policy laundering procedure. So what the EFF? Realize we had to do at that point was to was to you know, make a little canoe and and set off to Geneva a Landlocked country and and start speaking there now again I'll leap into finder here to show you what that kind of thing looks like Places like Geneva and WIPO and the United Net and the United the United N That's like a nice rap name for the United Nations Have Generally, you know stuff shirts right so so and we go in and we have a sort of geek sensibility This was the this was the t-shirt that our first representative to to WIPO gave This is this is the t-shirt that Corey Doctorow designed and if you if you've ever met Corey The idea of him walking into a standards-making Meeting, you know wearing his goggles and his balloon and cloak is quite quite something to behold And he did very well Along with the international lawyer at bringing to to force in these areas basically anybody who has a Steak in the area of digital rights whose name doesn't end in AA This was really the first time that that anybody who wasn't an established rights holder or lobbying group had Had made their presence fell and we weren't the work first in these groups But we were certainly one of the the leading sort of Edge of of new or organizations So who do we work with in these areas? Oh secret money stuff cool To do very very independent So this is our secret internet internal structures just so I couldn't reveal that to you I want you to do you see on PowerPoint. I had this great iron the pyramid logo that would cynically appear there I guess it's not open source enough So this is this is our secret triangle of love So we have the legal section, which is the lawyers. We have the illegal section Which is people like me who? You know I a n a l but um, but you know a lot of people who are l so can sort of fake it And we sit and do a lot of the activism stuff and we have tech research and if you come to a meeting later Well, you'll meet Peter Eckersley who we'll talk a little about sort of research We do to try and anticipate things that will come up in the future Allies in this area and this is one of the reasons why the ff doesn't have to do everything Has grown over the last 16 or 17 years when the ff started as I'm sure many of you Will know from from flicking through Bruce sterling Sam is data It was originally intended partly to be a sort of hacker defense foundation Partly to fund lawyers and legal actions Partly to do whatever needed to be done at that point and it spread itself relatively Widely at that level these days. There are various different groups that that are around who have enough Force and potential to take on some of the issues that I think all of us hold close to our heart a free software foundation is fairly obvious I'm chilling effects is in many ways a spinning off Organization that the monitors and tracks DMCA takedowns creative commons export member of EFF Larry Lessig Obviously helping work within the system public knowledge and an excellent organization that perhaps doesn't always get The publicity it deserves because it works behind the doors in Washington and does a lot of the the lobbying there And these are the groups that we work with in the United States What happened when we started moving into the international area is that there were certainly groups that the term that we work with Internationally scarce computer club. There's the international branch of creative commons access for all and The free software guys are liberally scattered wherever you can get to fresh meat and and the electronic frontier dollar country which are a lot of Organizations that popped up at the same time as the FF did but but but really we need more because we're Naturally a very US centric organization and that kind of works well for Americans but It's less useful when you're trying to Head off at the past the same kind of policy laundering that went on in the United States and still goes on in other countries There were also a number of real advantages to basing your organization in other countries Tax havens they're useful and you know sea land that would probably be a good place to start the paramilitary movement but but also And this is actually true that as opposed to everything else. I've said That if you're working within relatively small countries that are Unused to the kind of powerful Megalobbying that goes on in the United States and you know I'm not going to use the word doomed with the United States in the same sentence But you know if you're from another country you can kind of smell it Other countries often have a much easier pathway to achieving change particularly for instance the Eastern European countries where We've had a number of occasions where They're eagerness to sort of short circuit and leapfrog the sort of cruft and Vested interests that exist in somewhere like America has led them to be very open to the idea of copyright reform to Liberal policies towards a reverse engineering and and security analysis and and it's it's relatively easy compared to the kind of force that we have to try and achieve to to get an ear of Someone in government and in Russia, you know, you can do a lot if you can get their ear You can like send it back to them and threaten to anyway so okay, so so I'm gonna give an example here of the A particular project that we're involved in but before I do and My my colleagues at the EFF assassinate me This is the secret power that you can all take home to whatever country You have a faked passport for This is the FS real secret power. I kind of learned this in about a month of working there Again in PowerPoint, this would be done with a really clever reveal You know possibly one of the ones that does a springy piano number and kind of drizzles in like snowflakes But I am but the punchline just kind of appears in open source. There's no there's no hiding secrets here It's there's no security by obscurity So so the three things here is that they do have a phone at the EFF. Thank you for your donations Cheers and and there is someone Richard if you ever try and call us who turns up to answer that phone Richard Iscara the most powerful person at the EFF and He is although he claims not to be up paid to answer that phone What does this mean? This means that whenever anybody in the continental United States who works in journalism has no freaking clue how the internet computers or his Shift button works they call us and and they'll say things like well So I've just had this press release from the security company and they say that there are hackers out there who have I know devised a virus that can Make people's penises fall off or grow if they haven't got one Can that be done with Ruby on rails and And we can sit there and say well you can speak to this guy He's a Ruby on rails expert and he'll tell you in a straight face whether that is true or not And so we act as a sort of clearinghouse for idiots. No, we haven't acted as a clearinghouse for the media. Sorry Let's get my notes slightly and this this this is actually an incredibly important role that Organizations like the EFF have taken for a very long time and it's basically the core Use that any organization that you're gonna start somewhere else It is there to take and and these are the three things you need now the important one on that list How are we doing for time good? is is the word paid right and and this is problematic because Well, let's put it this way there are a lot of advantages to not being paid in the world of hacking Open source development and hacking in the sort of widest term and sort of forming Intentional communities online if anybody's ever been involved in those sort of projects, you know that that that Money is frequently kryptonite to volunteer run projects right that as soon as money gets involved then everybody starts getting very tense somebody spent it all on on on blow or or you know begins to argue about how much people should be paid or Actually just sort of abstracting away the sort of social niceties of dealing with money The other problem is is it just imposes incredible transactional costs? Ironically to running an organization because suddenly somebody has to look after the money suddenly you have a really Unfortunate relationship with the volunteers and the people you're working with and you can sort of imagine that supposing Linux had begun, but somebody was like paying linus like a Fiverr a bug fix right at the right at the beginning and everybody else would be kind of like I don't really want to get involved and then you also lose The ability that organizations or sort of semi-official organizations have in the in the the hinterland that most of us Get involved in of being able to fairly seamlessly move from organization to organization or reform or change your roles So and you can see this from Open-source projects you can see this from a single event websites You can see this in in hacker groups right that there's there's a bond of commitment about working on a particular project If money gets involved that can be problematic, but also more importantly if money isn't involved then you can kind of go Well, I'm pretty much bored of this I think I'll move on to something like that of something else and it's not acrimonious and It's it's not It's not as problematic The advantages low of money are a the blow And and B a whole bunch of things basically around institutional continuity, right? So I mean I've run Activism campaigns and a lot of other people, you know, basically all you have to do is get a domain name and say You know a pearl script that allows you to sign a petition and you're pretty much a force to be reckoned with on the Internet You are the new move on right so and none of that really requires much resources But what it does mean is once that event has finished once that kind of we now have to stop them in the next 24 hours There's there's nothing holding that group together and very often they sort of dissipate and if you go back to those domains in Within a year the people are involved the mailing list is dead. There's no there's no center to that There's no bit. There's no reason for those people to remain committed. So What became apparent was that it's very useful to have at least one person in a country Having some money having some money sitting at a desk answering a phone Everybody else can carry on pretty much as they are already because one of the jobs of that person is to sit there and know Who is doing what at that particular time so that if if somebody calls up and Asked about Ruby you can direct them to the Ruby if somebody asked that says okay Is this is this Bluetooth hacking story legitimate? You can pass them to you know, they'll digital or However, you you you have on your little list and the other thing you can do in that kind of context If you have somebody sitting there answering the phone is there also the first stop point for reaction one of the biggest problems in almost any country is that large lobbying interests or Often politicians just went wanting to scare Munger already have access to the media And even though the media has a sort of knee jerk tendency to want to find the offer the opposite side If it's not immediately in their contact list, they're just not going to do it, which is why? And this is less true now, but it certainly used to be true if you're if you're reading a newspaper And there's something about you know People people downloading music or brockling Elton John Then they'll be no feedback. There'll be no response. There'll be no final paragraph that says A small man who appears to spend all this time in front of a monitor said that that's wrong And there's nothing at all There's just stuff that that appears to be essentially propaganda for the other side now if those people have a phone number And then they can call or they just get a press release on their on their Computer within seconds of somebody standing up and saying that kind of thing then they feel more comfortable about presenting these things in a separate size Story a sort of more of a he said she said kind of scenario so I was working at the FF for about a month when we were kind of Wrapping up stuff that I was involved in the UK and we decided to do this It wasn't an EFF project so much as people who involved in stuff within the UK Deciding to do something for themselves and I came and said look I think this is probably what you want to do and we hatched a plan And this is the website if you're if you're going to hatch a similar plan that you should you should probably look into this is This is pledge bank, which is a little project done by man here Tom Steinberg which was started in the UK But actually works internationally if you can see at the top This is the Canadian version and you can choose any country that you want They actually built a very interesting kind of geo data system that can It's effectively a sort of open-source gazetteer that lets you pick out Different towns and it will know which which country that town is in and and you start your own pledge And basically the deal with this is is that people will say I'll I'll they have some examples here, but the first one's in French because this is Canada And I'm not that international so you say I will decide to New to my cat But only if a hundred other people new to their cats too So it's a way of sort of building up some kind of rampant cat neutering Organization or in our case digital rights, and this is the this is that the campaign that that that we did Right, I will create a standing order Which is the British for a regular check payment of five pounds per month, which is I think about $500 to support an organization that will campaign for digital rights in the UK But only if a thousand people will do the same So the plot here was this that that we felt that if we could get together a budget of around about 1000 times by five you do the math Per month we would have a stable income in order to have that person sitting at a phone And this is something that's that's relatively easy to set up It doesn't trigger until there is enough support within your country I mean again depending on the size and the existing community networks that you have then Then those numbers are going to be very different Ironically the funny story about this was is that because you don't really want to walk in to an existing community and say hey everybody Give me some money We sort of were quite sly about it. We had a sort of meeting that said hey I wonder why there isn't some sort of digital rights organization in the United Kingdom. I wonder why that is panel guest number one Why do you think that it do you think it's under the table? Wonder where it is until eventually the audience got so annoyed that they went well, why don't we just do one? Why don't we just like pay some money and do it? And then this is absolutely true and I don't think I've ever told anyone this that beforehand we went okay So what we'll do is somebody will say in the audience Let's do this and then one of us say well, how about a ten or a month? That's a really good idea and then we'll put it up on pledge bank And then we'll get the money and we'll have everything do it to do and then somebody stood up Perfectly on cue that we somebody wasn't involved in this evil global hacker conspiracy and said I know why don't we collect some money every month? We went yeah, that's a really good idea And he went how about five pounds a month and we all went No, that's like half the amount that we budgeted for and it was good. Yes a thousand people five pounds a month That's a brilliant idea and we frantically sitting there going I'm afraid somebody's not gonna not gonna get their blow out of this so It was me So so that's what happened and actually surprisingly, you know most people feel that they can budget that kind of thing when When there's no previous access to the media no previous presentation of what they do in their life And what they think are important apart from the occasional picture of a man in a silhouette with like let hexadecimal digits being projected onto his glasses and Know and no real involvement in the political process Okay, so so this was two years ago, and I want to just quickly go on and show you exactly What happens if you decide to do one of these things? Yeah, I don't have time The first thing you notice is that you're very scared Particularly if there's only enough money to pay one particular person you really ideally and we were very lucky in having someone in Su-shaman who was very Accomplished and was just temporarily You know had some spare time. She was doing freelance writing work, and she felt yes I can take this on board But if you're if you're a single person sort of sitting at a desk waiting for the phone to ring That can be quite terrifying and as I'll sort of go on to explain later One of the things you really have to do is to make sure that there's a support network for whatever mug. I mean Powerful individual the you're going to actually take this money and and sacrifice a big core of their life But I mean there is precedent for doing this pledge bank Which is the site that I pointed out there the little the little laughing man at the front of that is Tom Steinberg and He did pretty much exactly this for pledge bank He took three months off work and said basically I'm going to try and get funding for this This nonprofit thing and if I don't get it after three months then You know I'll go back to doing what I was doing before and he actually worked for the cabinet office, which is fairly high up sort of like a like a Washington sort of presidential kind of advisory board, but he felt that it was important to do something like this and and he managed to get the money and And you can you can do this kind of thing by doing these these conditional Well, we'll take a thousand people and once we have that money We'll go ahead and do it and those people at least have the stability to know that they have that money Going along So you have this person you set this person down. What do they do? Well, first of all what they have to do is start sending out like rampaging press releases the first year is completely reactionary But fortunately you'll discover that there's plenty to be reactionary about right that if you actually do a Google search for hacker or Digital rights or DRM or copyright Unto Google news for your own country, you know within about half an hour You're spitting with rage and that's perfect and like one of the things that I think I think if you were to talk to Sue she'd say is that she had to learn pretty quickly to just ramp down the you're all idiots kind of approach to sending out these press releases But pretty pretty soon people start contacting us and this isn't this isn't entirely sort of representative But but this is this is all two years on and you can know you can you can see that the term Well, there are 89 stories in that first headline that are that are quoting the open rights group And remember this is still basically just somebody in a desk Whenever the media wants to talk to a hacker or a security professional or somebody involved in in this case e voting Which is just an area of concern that that that you know There is no opposition and yet people are so determined to introduce e voting into into Into countries even though that essentially, you know, there's just companies trying to sell them very badly designed hardware on the other side It was very quick and very easy to build up some kind of opposition to that So what initially you'll you'll somewhat reactionary and then an opportunity comes up where you can do something where you have a bit of time and a bit of warning and And this in the case of org was Was who knows who Cliff Richard here is here Let's show this right so Cliff Richard is kind of how would you describe? He's like That's useful. Thank you So Cliff Richard is like a sort of if you took Yeah, right like a super annuated John Denver John Devour didn't have the smarts to Fly into the sunset to use the nicest possible description of that He's still around Cliff Richard and Cliff Richard was chosen He was one of the earliest sort of rock stars actually thinking about it like basically everybody you could compare Cliff Richard to Did die in some sort of horrible car plane accident, right? Because because like, you know, he was kind of in the Dean kind of area and anyway Anyway, buddy Holly right buddy Holly who had the misfortune to continue living anyway He wants his pension now and the way he wanted the pension is by extending copyright on all records now He's already incredibly rich and sort of known for that, right? And he's already and you know, he's not the greatest person to put on the TV going, please Please just extend copyright another 120 years because he's about 150 already and But this was what the music industry were really sincere and doing and the reason why was because of this policy laundering effect And this is literally to what happened the reason why copyright was extended in the United States was because everybody in the United States said Oh Europe extended their copyright to 70 plus life. So we have to extend ours So US extended copyright a certain amount and then the music industry went to Europe and went well They've extended it but they've extended it a bit more than you extended it So can you extend it and I basically this was going to go on until until you know Larry Lessig exploded so So this this became the campaign that the the the the open rights group picked upon initially And they got to gather some really really good examples of people. They got the drummer from blur who looks younger than Cliff Richard and is smart they got various sort of economic analysis to to show What effect this would have and and they prevented the technical side of this And and it got the response that this was the first time the government published a report It was the first time ever that a government has turned down a request the copyright extension Now copyright extension is kind of on the fringes of what we might describe as the global hacker conspiracy, right? But some things that are more Central to these things like electronic voting Like a digital rights management one of the most interesting effects we had was Getting a paper written to the BBC to explain to them why DRM was doomed written by Alan Cox Who is the second in command of the Linux kernel? And you know the price loves this right because Alan Cox, you know looks like a hacker, right? He's like he's like the Alan Moore of Technicality, right? You know they look exactly the same. They have strange ethnic accents. They have the same beard and The same Christian name. Yes, so they actually they're probably the same person thinking about it, but so and writing this report and getting that kind of coverage and introducing The media to people that they can like put into their pocket as ah, he's the Welsh Bill Gates Enables them to make a story and that Enacts policy change and it also changes the presentation of people Who are usually stereotyped in a very bad way in the media that has an incredible knock-on effect Into getting people into the corridors of power if you think the presentation of hackers in the media is bad You know the idea of actually being able to walk into Congress without the sergeant of arms holding you down without you having to do you know the standard presentation of of I Am the poor revere of Hacking and and but I'm I'm not like that anymore and this is what you should do But actually have behind-the-scenes consultation where people come to you and say listen We're thinking about rolling out this form of technology. How will this affect your freedoms? Which does genuinely happen now? And and the open rights group does does get that kind of potential to happen and so does the EFF Obviously we get consulted about laws, which wouldn't normally have happened before and in places like An East European country that temporarily slips my mind, but actually managed to get a pretty much Liberal copyright provisions into the Constitution of the country right simply by being around at the right time having that kind of expertise so Let me kind of this is interesting because this is this is the point where the the PowerPoint crashed so I Will have to sort of liberally invent this kind of thing now. Oh, okay, so So this is the sort of end result of what you get here This is you see that you can't really see this this is that this is the Parliamentary record for the United Kingdom and this is actually a mention of the open rights group in a parliamentary question Which if you've ever been stuck with c-pan, you'll realize is you know, basically I don't know like being stars in your eyes or American Idol for ugly politicians And and this was the this was the mention of the open rights group and the open rights group is now Invited to Parliament and it's still you know one person sitting there It's still the people that she's consulting with the people like Ben Laurie who is on our board and Alan Cox as I say Richard Clayton security professionals well-known people within the British sort of security Industry and academic community who are now actually invited to to discuss these matters With policymakers, although I have to say Richard Clayton was always doing it was doing a good job doing that before so That's some let's just run through Sort of basically my tips if you want to do this in your own country, right? Okay. First of all, it's very important I hope I don't know who this is more insulting to for the open rights group the advisory board or the real board Okay, so for the advisory board what you want is incredibly outspoken people who feel that they've got some commitment and involvement in what you're Doing and you can go there and they'll they'll go on TV and they'll speak to people and they'll they'll they'll make Controversial statements, but they can back it up with technical expertise You want really boring people to be the people that you go and talk to on a daily basis and say I don't think we can afford the blow anymore. So Maybe maybe the blow is for the advisory anyway, okay, so so that's the first one Okay, secondly, it's very tempting to make this your your first project, right and and don't you know I think the sort of hacker sort of larval cycle is that you know when when you You really just begin to feel your oats as it were and so you're 17 going on to 24 You really want to get involved in this kind of project and you're terribly committed to it This is not a good first project because if you make a mistake It's very public and you really also because of the money thing people are very Cautious about dealing with with people who don't have a track record And it's really good to sort build up your name in the community a lot of the people that originally came to the open rights group We're already fairly substantial people within communities running conferences in the UK And and this seems to be generally true, you know the EFF emerged from the well You have groups like the hacker foundation emerging from DEF CON It's really good to have a pre-existing community that you can draw those those initial Donators to and who will appreciate someone sitting there beside them doing this kind of legwork Yeah, so so the point that I think is really good for this is when you suddenly wake up and you're 29 And you realize you've wasted your entire life doing like exploits or in my case writing angry letters to the Guardian so at that point you sort of sit there going well What am I going to do and You can go and become a security professional and make lots of money Or you can go around asking for five dollar bills from a thousand people, but you know, you'll go to heaven because of that Yeah, we're with the creative commons people one of the biggest groups that is really successfully Internationally is creative commons and as I say it's it's not always obvious where in the sort of connection between the politics of hacking and the kind of My new shy of the coffee fight battle Why that connection should be so strong But in fact it turns out to be really useful for two reasons one the creative commons people tend to be the right kind of people tend to be the kind of people that have a commitment and an understanding of the wider issues and If they don't at the beginning they very soon do because all of the sort of threats to The free distribution of information online are all the pretty much the same threats that that occurred to hackers You know, there's no is no coincidence that the DMCA a copyright legislation Actually proved to be one of the greatest offensive tools against the free exchange of information in the security community It's because copyright is the is the excuse is the is the root password for for locking down the internet And the creative commons people know this kind of thing But they're also And the eye commons, which is the international part of creative commons also has a kind of credo of not getting involved in politics so that enables them to establish themselves in almost any country and And and not get the kind of like a scantz looks that that might otherwise happen So working with them may means that you you gain a little bit of credibility you make yourself appear Safer than you you you are in the global hacker conspiracy, but also you have a good a good contact in almost every country You'll make mistakes one of the I mean I can be honest about this when we were setting up the open rights group One of the things that we missed Or almost missed was an attempt to do a reform of Of the sort of anti hacking laws in the UK that would have banned hacking tools, which is a frequent political issue right attempts to ban tools that have dual uses both as hacking tools and as a security audit and analysis sort of You know crack Whatever so So this was this was actually proposed and went up right to the highest level And it was only caught at the very last minute and what do we learn from that? Well, we learned that we had to anticipate these things before they happen So we made sure that the contacts or work were better Going through into the future Don't agonize over the name right so so about the first two panel of meetings of the board We're going well should we be digital rights network, but people will think it's like a pro DRM group Or shall we be you know hackers against the world? No, no, no too offensive. How about the give me a fiver group? No, no, no too obvious and And this went on endlessly and you know, we chose or they chose I mean I'm kind of playing this dual role here because you know, I was at a certain distance I'm watching all of this EFF wasn't Directly connected to to how this stuff was going through but I got the got the opportunity to see it fairly close hand when it did and Open rights group was like a total committee decision and as soon as we started publishing things, you know the register was very kind of like What's an open right anyway? Does that mean the right to open doors? What are you talking about? Of course, you know, it means nothing, but within six months It becomes everything right and you know at the EFF we have the same problem in that, you know We do something absolutely brilliant someone says thanks to the electronic electric freedom foundation Or the you know the the the easy fighting fund and they have no idea what the acronym means So so, you know, it's a problem that everyone has but you live with them What's the reward? The reward is you suddenly find yourself being the uber expert, right? You suddenly become Not only the person who gradually picks up knowledge about very obtuse areas and you know Part of I think why the reason why all of us are here at the moment is because of that that that almost sort of visceral Requirement to learn more and if you find yourself being the bridge between real genuine experts and people who there is a real Need for them to understand this pretty soon It's the it's the perfect exercise for learning very broadly and very widely about a lot of object of things, right? And in the end you kind of become too much of an uber expert and you suddenly realize they're going to be stuck With this for the rest of your life. I once did I'm 90 something I am I did one interview about Kevin Mitnick in the UK And suddenly I was like the Kevin Mitnick expert and like they'd phone me up going we hear he's had some coffee What do you have anything there's and you know, I am no I mean I just read what everybody else does You know, I just have the banner out at the top of my thing. It's like, you know, that's all I know He's he should be freed and and you know and I'd have to say that like news night or like You know 24 hours or whatever every day So that's the reward you get to meet people and people are incredibly grateful, right? It's unlike any other situation where you find yourself Competing with your friends, right? That's one of the biggest problems about working in Environments where everybody's committed to what they're doing sometimes you find that you're competing and in this kind of situation You find that you're actually helping everybody around right you have money So you can help people organize things and plot things when people cool You can put them in contact with the people that they should know and that doesn't necessarily just mean that You're putting them in contact with with with foolish media folk Eventually people will call saying listen, I have this cool project and I really need to find somebody else that would know this How to do this do you know anybody like this and it's surprising how many really interesting and strange left field projects Get backing and get pick up and get and get taken away and and get far wider publicity as a result of that now I'm sure that for instance Tor and GNU radio would be would be you know household names in this house, right? Had the FF not been involved in some way We're representing them, but it really helps if like a journalist calls and they say we'd like to know more about anonymity For us to point to a really useful really powerful project that Presents a positive light on anonymity and I think that helps those projects and it helps the image of all of us And talking of help How how can we help if there's anybody here who's interested in doing this? This is basically my job now is that I go out and try and like plan these seeds Thanks, and and there are ways we can help we can't help you with money But we can certainly help you because effectively We end up doing this function for the whole of the world right so earlier today I had an email from someone in Malaysia someone reasonably knowledgeable about about the anti-censorship mechanisms All the censorship mechanisms going on in Malaysia But they needed to know other people so they came to us and if there is a small group starting in Malaysia in any of These countries we can put those people in touch with who they are and again, you know, we get press when Brazil Bands YouTube Brazilian newspapers call us and it's really lucky that self-show and one of my colleagues speaks Portuguese right because otherwise we'd be going Pretend the phone didn't ring So so so we can we can we can act as a larger conduit So if you are interested in doing this Definitely come to talk to us And in return all we ask is that if you have that other five pound that you didn't donate to your fledgling country Of course donate it to us And I told you that we we managed to put in a donation play every couple of minutes So that that's pretty much it and if you are interested if there's anybody here from Britain, I have I have three rights cards which you can share amongst yourselves And I have plenty of information. I probably won't be around that much in the Q&A section because Because the way that the international world works I have to do a conference call on a really strange time zone But I'll definitely be around after the FF panel and if you have any questions, I'll be glad to answer them there So thank you very much