 A House of Representatives Committee recommends immunity for Senate President, Speaker of the House, and the Chief Justice of Nigeria. And Nigeria's current system is suffocating its citizens, says Bishop Matthew Kuka. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anna Colm. The House of Representatives Committee on the Constitution Review has recommended immunity for the heads of Legislature and Judiciary less than a month after it rejected the clause. The bill sponsored by Shingo Debumi, APC Oyo, is titled An Act to Alter Section 308 of the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, 1999 to Extend Immunity to Cover Presiding Officers of the Legislative Institutions. Now some members of the Committee agreed with him while others opposed it. Currently, only the Vice President, Governors and their deputies currently enjoy immunity under Section 308 of the 1999 Constitution as amended. The immunity clause for executives has been a subject of controversy. While joining us to discuss this is Katch Onanodruhi, he is a Political Analyst and of course, Richard Mokochai, Professor of Law, Public Law, River State University. Thank you very much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you Dr. Katch for joining us. Can you hear me? Thank you very much for having me. Great. Let me start by going to the background that I gave at the beginning of this conversation. This didn't start today. In 2016, the same idea was brought up on the floor of the National Assembly. It was trashed. Early this month, early this year, I beg your pardon, it was still rejected. The question, of course, on everybody's mind is why the sudden change of heart? What would have necessitated this sudden change of heart? Well, you've seen that we've descended. The National Assembly in the days you talked about was still very fearful and very mindful of public opinion and what the people would think about their behaviors. The National Assembly is so damaged that it's only thinking about its members and that's why it's saying just this is for the benefit of members of the National Assembly. We have not seen where the amendment benefits the country. Now, they are seeking to benefit themselves. That's how I see it and it's an honest expression of where we are today as the people in a country where morals are gone out of the window. Why do you think that the National Assembly has been tinkering on this for too long, for this long in fact, from 2016 till now? Why would they be thinking about immunity, the immunity clause, instead of looking at how they can make laws that would benefit the avid Nigerian? Why? Why do you think that we've descended this low in your own words? Because you said that we have descended. Why have we gotten to this point in the life of our legislature and the leadership of the country? You have to look at the leadership of the National Assembly. This is the first leadership of the National Assembly that has never been there for the Nigerian people. This leadership has been there for themselves. Have been there for the wins and caprices of the executive. So this is actually what we've always thought about. The Ahmed Lawa led National Assembly. I'm not surprised at what we're seeing. I'm only simply asking what limits would they put on themselves. The Lawa led National Assembly, that's the current National Assembly, is the worst in the history of Nigeria since we're president democracy. So we are simply looking and asking ourselves how low can this National Assembly go? I don't know how low yet, so I'm just watching. Interesting. The sponsor of this bill, Leo Ogall, he's the PDP, Delta State, he said that the bill intends to alter Section 308 of the 1999 constitution. His reasons are that the immunity for the leadership of the legislature would guarantee its independence. So I ask, how true is this? Is the legislature not independent? And if it is not, is it because of the constitution or is it as a result of the people who occupy that National Assembly? Well, if you look at the history, you will say that no member of National Assembly has so far in the past 20 years of the current democratic experiment has ever been punished or be taken to court simply for doing their job. I honestly do not know where this is coming from, but I can tell you that it takes the agreement on the leadership for things like this to occur because once the sensitive issues like this are brought up, leadership normally goes through whoever is the sponsor. And when they all agree, they can appoint whoever they want to bring it up. So I put this squarely at the feet of Ahmed Lawal and how weak is leadership of National Assembly has actually dragged the democracy to its very lowest points. I'm not surprised if this is what's coming from him as other Nigerians have complained. This is the worst we have seen in terms of leadership of National Assembly since the onset of the current experiment with democracy. I'm interested mostly in how together the people are because the person who moved this motion is a member of the opposition which seems to be the minority on the floor of National Assembly and it's interesting to know that they all seem to be in agreement with this particular bill as opposed to what we see when it comes to bills that might one way or the other positively impact on the life of Nigerians. Those bills never really take the front row or we never seem to see this level of togetherness. I remember when we had been pushing for certain things to be included in the electoral act and of course even the constitution amendment we didn't see this kind of togetherness but then there seems to be one voice even though this is a bill that is being pushed by the opposition or the minority on the floor of the National Assembly. Does this not sound to you as one of those cases where everybody's asking for cars to be given in the National Assembly and there's a yay coming from everyone? Well, you rightly analyzed it well. It is normally a situation promoted by leadership of the National Assembly. It does not matter who is used or chosen to make the proposition but the fact that you've seen that there are no positions left, right and all sides of the aisle simply means leadership has actually gotten all the members to go along with what is being done. That's why you saw no opposition to it from either the PDP or the APC rank of the National Assembly. It is a bill that has the blessings of leaders of National Assembly that I present. But then this bill, I see that Professor Wokocha has joined us. Let me quickly go to Professor Wokocha. Do you think that this is what Nigeria needs at this point in its life being that we're faced with all kinds of things, insecurity, lack of good governance which is something that the member who pushed or sponsored this bill made mention of saying that this would encourage good governance. And so I want us to give a background to good governance. Is good governance something that needs immunity for legislatures for it to happen in the Nigerian state? Can we get good governance without immunity for our lawmakers and of course the CJN of this country? Certainly we can get good governance without immunity for those to whom they are trying to extend the customary immunity to at this moment. Now, perhaps this is the only thing we want to contribute to the world and the world of governance. And it's a strange one. This would be the only country that you will find that kind of creep to give immunity to Chief Justice of the country and to the leader of the legislature. It's not customary. Governance does not require immunity for those officers before it can have good governance. So it's certainly not one of the things we require now to treat in our policy. It's not now and it's not going to be later. It's not going to be a requirement. They are seeking to take... We are already having a problem with abuse of powers and malfeasance in governance and they are seeking to extend the scope of protection for people in governance. The CJN is a very respectable office, the office of the CJN and it's one that enjoys global respect because of its ability to conduct itself in the customary manner that judges conduct themselves. They do not require a legal immunity unless they go out of this scope and they do things that are unexpected of judges. It's difficult to find a solution where you judge the immunity from what? So the CJN does not need immunity. Neither does the head of the legislature require immunity. I don't know if our representatives conduct a new level of investigation before they come up with ideas. This is certainly not the kind of idea we want to invent in the world. It's not a requirement for good governance. Before you joined us, I also quoted Mr. Leo Orgo to say that this would guarantee the independence of the legislature. I'm hoping that that's what he would also say about the judiciary. Now we already know how the legislature, many have said that Nigeria's legislature, especially this one, this particular legislature, both the upper and lower chambers, to be rubber-stamped. And this is detailed for some of the legislatures in the states, if not all of them, who simply are members of the same political party with the person who is leading the state. So really, I want to ask again, if we do some tinkering with our constitution, does it in any way enable the independence of all the arms of government? Because originally I'm guessing that the guys who wrote the constitution had in one breath said that, look, all the different arms of government are independent and they have their responsibilities, and all of these different arms of government are supposed to check each other. But taking this bill and making it law, does it do more harm or does it do good, or what exactly does it do? Because I'm trying to understand the independence here that Leo Orgo is making reference to. I do not think it will do... Sorry. Yeah, Professor, go ahead. I do not think... Yes, yes. Now, I am certain that it will not do any good. There is every possibility that it will do harm. The reason it won't do any good is that the requirement of independence for both the judiciary and the legislature is not dependent on the status of the head of those institutions. No, certainly not. And by the way, the constitution makes them independent enough. Never mind whatever interpretations are given here and here. The constitution establishes them to be independent. Whatever was left of that independence was added by section 81 and 82 of the constitution and the equivalent section dealing with the state, which I think is far from 21 on the other hand. So they are independent enough. They are not being independent. It's a function of they are not willing to be independent. What makes them not independent is not that their head does not enjoy immunity. It is the grid and the desire. Well, it is a desire for a politician who is pursuing a career. It is a desire to continue to be in office. But it is that desire that causes them to subject themselves to those whom the constitution made subject to them. The legislature is supervisor to the executive. I think that we lost that connection there with Professor Wokochak. I can tell you that any day... Okay, hello. Yeah, Professor, we lost you for a second. Hello. We lost you for a second. But let me just go back to catch on an interview. Let's look at something that Mr Orgol has spoken about also. He said that this will protect the legislature from unnecessary distractions and court cases. And we know that many members of the National Assembly have had one court case or the other allegations, issues with the CCB previously, even the EFCC. But then, of course, the law does not in any way shield them from having these cases. And what stops anybody, by the way, if you have a case in court from answering those cases and going back to your job? Is that a distraction of any sorts? Mr Orgol, can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Mr Orgol was probably making references to the last harassment of one. The Chief Justice of the Federation does this again. And before Mr Nugget's crisis, of course, you also know about the harassment of Dr Bukola Siraki by the Bui Rai administration, when he thought that it was the behavior of Dr Bukola Siraki and the Senate that was undermining him, really, as he thought, in the presidential mindset of the military. Well, when they went to Quara and got Bukola Siraki, it stopped from coming back to National Assembly. You saw that he still didn't have it easy with Nigerians. So I think harassment of members of the legislature and heads of judiciary would not stop if you have a very bad government bent on undermining the judiciary and undermining the legislature. For the democracy to work proper, it behoves all the folks to be of good character for the sake of our country and for the sake of our democracy. No matter how you try to bring the laws to shield them, a determined adversary, as we have seen as the Bui Rai administration, will still go to different lengths to try to undermine the democracy the way they have done. So I believe that Bui Rai himself should start showing good faith by signing the electoral act that was actually designed during the Bukola Siraki period, which he also called harassment. They've been nabbed in the tone by a legislature primarily controlled by his party and with loyalists. So I think he should find the amendment to the electoral act and we can take it from there. Apart from that, all those there doing is simply trying to extract from the real reason for which we elected them in the first place and that is to go to the national assembly and make good march for the good governance of the country that would bring benefit to the general population, not to themselves. So I think this move, yes, it may be protective based on the experience they have had under Bukola Siraki's period and under Justice Ornogen's period. I agree that you can still rule and run a proper democracy with a laws that tend to shield leaders from interrogation because if you look at it, Bukola Siraki was still acquitted by the court of country registration that the case was brought in. I don't really think making this legislation will stop any determined adversarial federal government from pursuing the work they have pursued. Now, I just want to go to the recent, you know, concerns on the Florida National Assembly by members who have opposed this bill particularly. One of them has said that, you know, the fact that the judiciary is going to be considered to give any immunity. They're saying that it might one way or the other, you know, be some form of threat to our democracy. Another person here on the other hand is saying that, look, there are instances where some executives have been reckless in actions against lawmakers and judicial officers and so it would be good for the House to decide on this bill to favor these officers, one way or the other, to shield them from these harassments. So, but let's look at the rule of law here. The fact that we've had leaders who do not, you know, yield to courts, you know, rulings, we've seen outright disobedience of, you know, the courts and the statements coming from the courts. We've seen so many of them who do what they like including Mr. President. So, if we were, if this bill for whatsoever reason were to see the light of day, will this not be putting salt on the injury and where does this leave the average Nigerian who is the lead in this case, being that even at this point we're still complaining about how our leaders are leading us and of course and how weak our institutions have become. Mr. Anunuju? Well, you can see that the most pressing problems in the country have not been addressed. When I think about pressing problems and look at the security challenges and the fact that quite a lot of our countrymen and women are living as IDPs come in, as IDPs yet we're not at war. We just have to put their minds to it to bring the president to return these indigenous people to their ancestral lands. They are busy conjuring up new legislations that will protect them from being targeted. For me, I don't see anything wrong with interrogating the service records of anybody elected by the people to serve. If he is guilty, it will be shown. If he is not guilty of the accusations that happened during the time of Bukalasaraki, the court will set them free. But be that as it may, there is also a need for us to protect our lawmakers who are being harassed by the executive right. It will not stop. They could always find people in the civil society to target some legislators. They could even use the party system since the head of the executive, the president seems to be the numero uno in these parties. And once he's not happy with you, he can get goons in government to harass you. There are different ways he can do this. So I really do not see this the embrace of legislation like this as what we actually stop and determine adversarial executive from harassing members of the judiciary and the legislature who they think are not on the seventh page with them. Be that as it may, I see everything, every maneuver in this democracy as issues of trial and error. We're trying different things. We're looking for what we stick. Whatever it is that we stick to it, I'm sure we'll be able to work with. I think these things are not the fundamental problems that undermine the country's progress. Those problems are inherent in the behavior of the president like the security situation. The idea that he is not even going after the terrorists simply because of ethnic considerations. That is what I think the legislature should put their energy on and force the executive to go after those terrorists and be able to return indigenous people back to their ancestral lands so that they do not stay one day longer in IDP camps. Those are the things that I think the legislature should have to in regards to their wanting to save the country. I think it's important to make sure that the government has a solution that would limit the office in the first place. Thank you for joining us again. Apologies for the break. Mr. Nujia has made very important points here. I still can't move away from the fact that it's all well and good that we have members in the national assembly that would not want to cut off his nose despite his face. If he knows that this legislation would one way or the other have to make him or her sit up or do the right thing. Knowing that the Nigerian space we are in, there are too many loopholes for politicians to wiggle out of. I think it's important to make sure that the government has a solution. I want to bring attention to the people who are opposing the idea of giving immunity to judicial officers. Someone here said that it's really unconventional all over the world for judicial officers or presiding officers to have immunity. It could be self-serving from the angle of morality. It could be a bit of interest if the immunity now extends to judicial officers. That means you have to go to the judiciary to seek leave to sue the officers that are concerned in whatever issues. You are now going to apply before the judicial officers because these are the cots of competent jurisdiction. There are perhaps issues of bias. This is a senior advocate of the law. I am sorry, I am sorry, can we as Nigerians, let's start with the middle class who have a perfect idea of what's going on here. How do we intervene to make sure these kinds of bills do not continue to pass first and second reading as opposed to other bills that need the interest and attention of our judicial officers? Let me just continue from where he stopped. You can't stop legislators from bringing up bills. For what we can do as citizens is to name and shame, react in such cloudy manner to such unnecessary bills and make so much trouble that they feel we will not return them to that place. We need to make them feel our threat. They need to be moved by what we react to for the action to be responsive. If they come up with these self-saving bills we must condemn it in totality. My friend has said sometimes this could have some good because of the peculiarity of our situation but you recall he also said that we are living the things that are important to do things that are unimportant. We create self-saving problems and then we seek to solve them. Why we live the ones that really desire and require our attention. So as citizens once you have voted in your legislators, the way you can do is campaign protest lobby but you can't stop them from doing what is within the confines of their work. So all we can do is show that as citizens we do not like what is going on. We speak up against it, speak up in the media, move if necessary, campaign both rallies to condemn it. How do we do these things if most of us early in the mornings were waking up in these legislators' homes asking for money for school fees for our children or you know and then there are also other people who don't even know how to get across to these people or even to petition them. The legislators, exactly. So for those who are close to them they will not be part of what we are doing but just as you observe over 95% of Nigerians are not close to any such legislator that is taking care of his daily needs. So if we speak up from the available media we speak up and if civil society organizations react, call for campaigns and lead campaigns even the National Assembly is scandalised and they will do something. These things are possible and are going on because we do not react to them in this country. Elsewhere people make moves people take steps that compare the legislators or the public officials involved to get responsible and to respond properly. People get the government as good and as serious as they are vigilant. If we sacrifice vigilance and if we throw everything into the air and say well we wait for the next election you will get exactly what you are getting and because policies will not change the next election we return them to office whether or not you vote. So we must begin to get active as citizens and we must do that using every means that is available to us. The campaigns are always there. The civil society organizations I agree need to get more active need to get more serious with their business if they do that they will provide the launch pad from which average ordinary citizens will respond to calls and turn up to name and shame and that is the most we can take I want to say thank you a political analyst Professor Richard Wokochia is a professor of law public law at the reverse state university I want to say thank you gentlemen for being part of the conversation and apologies for the connection issues. We will take a quick break and when we return we will be talking about the state of the nation yet again as Bishop Matthew Kukka situation in the Nigerian system is treating Nigerians pretty badly we will get to talk about it after this break.