 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Jerry Porter of hazelshood.com drums and cymbals Jerry welcome to the podcast. Oh, thanks It's a pleasure to be here Bart really is Yeah, man, you have So much knowledge about this stuff. I want to tell everyone right now while you're listening to this go to hazelshood.com Look at the Hazel should museum. It is insane the amount of Drums and cymbals that have gone through your hands over the years. I assume you don't own everything that's on that Museum page not presently. I mean, but I have owned. Yes 99.9% of the things that are on that museum page and I should say That museum page features about five percent of the cool stuff that I've had so I just have not had time to Upload all the things sure Yeah, I mean it's it's and I don't hear a little I want to hear kind of your explanation of what you do and what makes hazel should so Special but it's the kind of thing where I was looking at it and I was scrolling down and I was like Oh, it's still scrolling still scrolling still scroll and it just like a little like scroll tab kept getting like smaller And it's like it's basically endless. So what we're gonna talk about today I think is we're gonna talk about rare symbols Some of the rarest symbols that have come to your hands And also maybe ones that you're looking for that would be holy grail symbols for you We're gonna be talking about famous symbols tones things that you know have come up in your life over You know in your experience with hazel shit, but first things first I want to thank Luke Robinson who suggested you as a guest on the podcast, which I always love when people do that It took a while. I think he was back in June, but I was I have gotten way behind on booking and Emails and everything so I appreciate Luke doing that, but All right, so Jerry, can you just explain for people who don't know what is hazel should what do you do? What's kind of your elevator pitch that you tell people about what you do? Well, I specialize in I guess curating procuring rare symbols and drums You know over the years I've been doing it about 25 years I'd say over the years I've migrated more heavily to symbols I like symbols not that I don't like drums. It's just that symbols. It's the tone is innate you know you hit a symbol and That's what it does. That's what it sounds like drums. You can tune them differently. You can change heads There's a lot more variables that goes into drums, but the the sonic nature of symbols is Sort of born or baked in and I find that fascinating They do you know that their tone is Mutable if you use a different stick like if you use a Peter Erskine stick versus like a 2b or something Of course the tone changes and obviously it changes from player to player, but I don't know symbols have an illustrious history You know, you know starting well way back in China thousands of years ago, but also in Turkey obviously Turkey is famous for symbols and the Sultans court and that whole thing and how they're handmade and hand hammered and then they the Zildjian company You know migrates over here at the turn of the last century and they start What they had a confectionary, right and then that whole story they you know Imagine owning a candy shop and then being like, you know, somebody calls you on the phone like hey Yo, you got to be I know you left, but you got to pick up the mantle of symbol making Yeah, yeah, I mean rope Uncle Corope or whatever calls it's like put down the candy. Yeah Stop slinging lollipops and So, you know, that's a fascinating history and obviously like feisty and what they're Estonian I you know, I think a lot of people are like, oh, they're Swiss and you're like what I think they're Estonian Yeah, originally. Yeah, and so and also just I don't know you put them up on the symbol and you hit them And there's a release in the physical Striking a symbol it resonates and yeah, I don't know. There's a joy of me the whole alchemy thing too is very interesting mixing metals and it's just Symbols also like you said there they go back really really really far which means that there's very very old symbols That are super sought after yeah, and that I guess age doesn't make it the only thing that makes it sought after I'm sure there's some You know caveats to that, but I don't know what why don't you talk a little bit about? What makes a symbol really really rare and then maybe we can hear some examples of some of those holy grail symbols sure some of it depends on What You find of value, you know what how I mean there there's things that as individuals as individual drummers We imbue with value And then there's other things collectively as drummers or as the collective drumming buying and selling market that we imbue with value Collectively like for instance one of the most famous symbols is the vintage zildjian Istanbul K And you know those are zildjians that were made You know at the in the in Turkey That I think the Turkish plant closed around the late 60s maybe the early 70s Yeah, and then it migrated right they they migrated to Canada Which ultimately became Sabian and I think they had some of the old vintage zildjian The the Turkish symbol Smiths also migrated to Canada, so there's an interesting lineage there But yeah, those symbols are fairly rare and what makes them, you know, what makes them Rare or sought after primarily is who played them and what recordings are on so, you know Art Blakey used used them famously one of the most famous and sought after tones among any drummer is going to be Tony Williams He famously used a 22-inch Istanbul K On like the what what people call like the nefertiti ride or some people who dig deep or like oh What was he playing on you know? Four or more It you know drummers hear it and they think this is the perfect elixir of great stick attack Mixed with a breathy wash It sits in the mix in a beautiful way It it doesn't get in the way of Miles Horne or any of the other instrumentation yet. You still hear you still hear Tony Williams timekeeping on the symbol you still get this breathy atmospheric I Don't know inimitable quality that is pervasive throughout the song and so people are Forever's on a quest to find that and I sometimes think As much as I love Vinnie Jill's in Istanbul case and I own several at right now even have right now on the website I have a very rare 24 inch Yeah, it's on sale. It's a sale tab. So there's a there's a deal. There's a deal That's a you too can sound like Tony Williams But it you know, of course Those recordings are famous and yes the the the the elephant in the room is well It's Tony Williams and Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock and Ron Carter, you know that coming together is of course what creates Such a beautiful recording that is familiar to the ear But yet we all sort of I think as listeners want to be connected To such a beautiful piece such a beautiful recording such a timeless era, especially let's say for Miles Davis and Tony Williams Yeah, and so you know Owning of in his zil-jin Istanbul K from that period you do feel connected with the past and there's Some spiritual component in there where you sit down at your kit you start playing You may not sound anything like Tony Williams You might not be playing with Miles Davis, but they're it's inspiring and Yeah, you know, but is it also fair to say that each of those You know K Istanbul symbols does not automatically sound I don't want to say they sound they might sound good or bad, but they might not they all sound different Right, you might not get one that you like really. Oh absolutely and and especially with the vintage zil-jin Istanbul case because they are hand hammered and you know Throughout history symbols were hand hammered. I believe you know In time for time in memoriam until I think around the time of Ringo and the Ed Sullivan show and Ludwig started slapping white on the interior the drums to keep up with the orders and you know, I think zil-jin started to Machine makes symbols. I can't remember the exact year, but maybe sure you know around the mid 60s or something like that by the time you're obviously in the 70s, it's a lot of its machine made and That's not a bad thing You know among symbols smiths and artisans we all kind of look at that like oh my god, how could you possibly dame to play? something as you know Monstrous as a machine-made symbol, but yeah, you know at the end of the day they're tools Yeah, and sure When they were hand hammered back in the day that a lot of symbols myths today are doing like the young and budding burgeoning symbols smithing market They did have more idiosyncrasies to them when you when you have a zil-jin from the 1940s and 1950s or an Istanbul K. There is this Musicality that floats about that a machine-made symbol lacks Hmm, and yeah, I do hear it. It's not just bogus marketing, you know, I do hear it and other people hear it too I mean, that's one of the things that also makes that era of zil-jin a They're made in Turkey be their hand hammered and handmade see the rare D they're played on some of the most famous recordings by some of the most famous drummers, you know, but drummers who are in the pantheon of 20th century playing Yeah, it's like a perfect mix of I mean, that's what makes that makes things rare. It's almost like to like there's a little bit of like a like a playing card kind of thing where it gets like It's a very popular Kind of symbol because it's rare. Maybe a little bit of it is it's rare because it's popular It's like everyone kind of knows to hunt for that and to look for that and we talk about it And it makes the whole value go up where that's kind of how collecting works is sure one person buys it And it gets more expensive. I mean, do these come up once a year when you're hunting Do they come up like once in a decade? I mean, how rare are they? That's that's a great question There's a finite amount of them that's another thing of rarity like for instance, there's no more Faber J eggs There's no more Vincent van Gogh paintings every once in a while Maybe someone finds one at a you know, whatever a pawn shop or an attic or something but and that is also true about Istanbul case, but I For me, it's more common. I know a lot of people. I know a ton of drummers. I've been doing this 25 years Everybody your many people know that I buy and I sell Specifically symbols And so I have a lot of people who reach out to me directly and they say hey, I have the system okay You know, I'd like to move it You know, so I thought I'd call I thought I'd contact you and And so I probably I see more than the average person You know, if you go hunting you can find them on the standard websites of Reverb and you know that sort of thing they're they're they're on there and you know by popular sellers or Symbol collectors will have them that sort of thing Sure. Okay. That makes sense. You're in a different position where yeah, it's your your people are coming It's like Steve Maxwell. There's certain people where things come to them, which You know, I'm sure you still love the you know, you're at a pawn shop or something and you find something That's just unbelievable. There's a thrill that you that we all love It's gambling. Yeah, it's good. You know you buy the Lotto ticket up at the up at the corner And you want to see what the stamp is, you know, you go like, you know, you're at the pawn shop I remember that many many times. I mean, there's there's a little less of that now I think but at the advent of eBay when it was Brand-new, you know In the late 90s early 2000s, there was all of a sudden there's it. Oh my gosh There's a there's what is this engraved Grayish black drum and you're like, oh, that's a 1920s Ludwig black beauty and if you find that or if you find a you know, radio if you if you find a Rogers wood dynasonic it there was a gambling part nature to it that was It was a nexus of all the enjoyable things. There's drums. Yeah, there's oh my god, what did I win and there's you know money and Yeah, and just you know, sort of the hunt. I think I think yeah Totally and it still does happen. I mean the episode recently with with Brooks Tagler and the new owner Steve about the the Jean Krupa drum set that got found in a basement at an auction and that's a little different It was an auction. It was on the forums, but it the hunt is still still out there But all right, so we all know vintage K's are super rare now. What would be something that's you know, maybe Another one that's maybe not quite as well known, you know, there's a lot of There's a lot, you know throughout the different companies Sabian, Pistie, Istanbul Agap, you know, Istanbul Mehmet, Bosphorus, Euphip You know, you could say you know, Spisikino all sorts of you know, Mike's Ski-ba, Ski-ba symbols that there's there's Each company has their own van goes or Faber J and and you know, say take for instance, Pistie the the early 602 22 inch dark ride which Became the sound creation dark ride. I actually have one I have one right now. I have a 20 inch but the 22 is famous because you know, Jack D. Jeanette played it and Jack D. Jeanette has a signature tone and he's a very musical player and That would be an example of a of a Pistie a collectible Pistie that has an illustrious history also famously the Roy Haynes The Roy Haynes 18 inch 602 flat ride that's on Chick Korea's Now He Sings Now He Sobs if you go listen to that and If you pretend like you know nothing about drums or don't know that that symbol is being played you listen to that sound and you go God, what is that symbol? Like it's it's it's high. Yeah, it's and it's high-pitched and you go There's something about the tone of this that doesn't sound like an AC-DC record Whatever you want to say or or like, you know a Kenny Clark recording, you know, it's something, you know You know he a Max Roach Clifford Brown. You go there's something different here. What is he doing? What is he playing and the way it sits in the recording is? You know has has become Famous over time part of it's the music and it's it's it's that magic place where the players in the music and the instruments Come together to create something special Totally you read my mind to say well, there's another couple examples of where players Make the symbol famous, but it makes perfect sense because if you make a symbol you sit it in a room It doesn't do anything you need it to be out on the records being played It's is it's only as good as the you know the player who's playing it and the That's kind of luck in a way where it's like, you know the way it's recorded kind of helps with that all those magical Things that mix together, but what about Sabian because Sabian is a newer brand in the big picture I think 81 82 is when the split happened with with Bob Yeah, or when I know there was a year where they couldn't sell in America and it was that whole thing but early 80s So comparatively to a lot of things, but yeah, what's what's some rare? Sabians that you look for sure. I mean straight up the early HH sound control rides They have like, you know symbol hollocks We'll pursue those and I don't know if any you know some some of your listeners might be symbol hollocks or Remember symbol hollock that there is a famous website symbol hollock. Yeah. Yeah, it was a great site And I think they're back up on Instagram and I've seen yeah, yeah, though I mean there was a like a library of information and and and you know really Really great people who would share their knowledge on that and You know the red label HH sound control 22 is just the Sabian is just a Fantastic sounding symbol and one that guys will you know pursue and look for and with good reason I've owned a lot of them and they sound consistently terrific. They're dark. They're low You know by now they're you know 40 years old so they've mellowed they've aged they do like they have a particular Lushness to them I think Sabian gets the the short shrift on a lot of the The symbol when we talk about symbols like look Minel has sort of exploded on the scene with their Byzantz series a lot of people love them They're great. They're Turkish symbols, you know, I mean Minel as a company is not that but When I find some of the Minel Byzantz stuff, I'm like well This stuff sounds terrific. They've done a great job. They've done a fantastic job marketing, but a lot of this stuff existed already It's not sure. Yeah I mean if you were paying attention to like, you know, Istanbul agape or Istanbul Mehmet or some of the other Lesser known Turkish companies out there. They're making similar stuff now Sure, Minel put their own little, you know their own little stamp on it You know literally and figuratively so and they make great symbols But it was if you're a symbol freak that stuff was it I don't hear it and go What is this brand-new device? You know, the Turkish companies have been making that stuff for a long time I but I don't think they had the marketing juggernaut behind them that Minel Did and Minel put time and money and energy into it. 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I did that with Sabian where I'd go, you know Oh, no, Sabian. I like Zilgin, but it's like it's not fair and it was Because then then I mean really as a kid. I don't think I definitely didn't realize that, you know Robert Zilgin Sabian and it's in I didn't realize that the history of it all and you can dismiss these companies and go Like boo Toma I like Yamaha boo Ludwig I like Slingerland and it's like no, they all have their own cool history They're all very hard-working companies, but people certainly are brand loyal That's for sure. They are a big factor and you know, I would say all of the symbol companies make great Certainly usable symbols. There's all sorts of symbols from every single company that you could take on a gig and you're not you know The symbols not gonna get you fired You know the the the lead singer is not gonna come up and go like yeah, all this stuff you did tonight was pretty good But what the hell is that 18 inch that you're using on the left side because that's you know, you've got the gig kid Yeah, it's yeah, I love that symbol. I love that symbol It's something that you know, you don't really hear from lead singers so We grow up with looking at what your heroes play and the companies, you know, that that's been going on since drums The drum set, you know was born and Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich and you know all the marketing that those guys would do and the Stumping they do for the companies. It's understandable and I think that yeah It's easy to get carried away Into this is what I should be playing Because my favorite drummer plays that and I think that's great because that's the inspiration. We all should be inspired We all should be Playing something that inspires us or if you see Jimmy Chamberlain, he's playing a gop so whatever you're like This is what I want to play great But at the end of the day, you know a Sabian AA Despite the fact that it's not that cool on eBay That can be a great symbol. Oh Yeah, you play a ton of gigs with that. Yeah Yeah, so let me ask you though So like brands like I'm always intrigued and I want to do an episode with them But there's always been kind of a language barrier or just something that gets in the way Eufip what's your experience with getting finding eufips in America, you know, like what's the rare ones? I always hear the splashes are great. There's splashes are great. You nailed it I mean, you know what the I had a eufip class splash is a class series tenant splash I don't know. I bought it like 25 30 years ago. I hid it and I went This is the best symbol I own and I never thought that the best symbol I own would be a tenant splash but it just Did the thing it did what I wanted it to do So I think eufips one of those companies that did really well in the late 90s There was you know, like Istanbul Agap was coming, you know, Istanbul was coming alive Bosporus are coming alive. You Fip caught that wave and everybody was like wait, we don't all have to play zildjin What is this stuff? This is cool. True. And yeah, I think they've sort of I don't know if the marketing or maybe somehow They they they were not able to get to maintain the foothold in the US like they should have they make fantastic symbols Sure, I really like the natural series Which is sort of like a Turk like that would be like their Turk right. It's like a raw Dry with a little bit of complexity in there. Their natural series is great. I mean Charlie Watts famously played the flat ride Yeah, you fit flat ride Yeah, they make great and they're roto that they're the casting is like it's spun. You're roto casting. Yeah Yeah, yeah, so they how often do those come up? I mean, do you see them pretty often? I do I have a fair amount of them right now They I mean you can find them they're out there, but it does take that's like a mid-level hunt That's yeah, that's that's not you know, you know, that's not like let me go find a Vincent van go I mean, I suppose the the the van go of that would be the the sort of Charlie Watts era flat ride That would be the one that's the most sought after obviously Because Charlie well sure yeah because of Charlie Watts. There it is again. I mean, it's again It's it's people it's what did you know if if people might be searching for a Zilco because Ringo Was it Zilco or as he had was it? I think he had a Pisces super Was it a Turco? Maybe it's a crott and a Turco in there with the rivets. Yes something Yeah, some off-brand kind of be second lines second whatever series symbol where it would normally have no value I think an 18 with rivets. Yeah, I can't remember a crott or whatever, but um, that's a perfect example That's a that's a that's a symbol that It's strange. It's like they inhabit these little corners if you imagine the entire symbol world as one big house You know, then they inhabit this little corner in a crawl space in the in the attic where you're like, oh, here's a crott That the most unfortunate name in symbol history would be crott and do you know where that came from? No, what is it? It's backwards. It's turk backwards turk backwards. Yeah, so okay You know, there's a whole it's a good name. It's a good name shouldn't have said that I think when it comes to rarity and that sort of thing, you know We can go into the sort of the illustrious history who played what or there's a finite amount of them But in the modern era, you know of symbols that are being made today Obviously the spizzakino symbols You know that those are the last 25 years or so whatever it's been Those are those are at the top of that pile with good reason. They're beautiful Roberto Spizzakino was a symbol Matt, you know a symbol master and I'm glad that he's getting the respect You know that he deserves Do you come across those? Fairly often from time to time. I don't have any at the moment. I do have a lot of great sort of you know Custom symbol smiths now I have some great Borba symbols. I have Manjiello, I have Loretson Who's Australian symbol topia? You know, there's a There's it's it's it's blowing up. I mean that that yes is blowing up and and it's cool I'm glad to see that people are I don't know. There's a respect for the for the the artisan re of it Totally it is an art. You do see I think like for instance, there is an Istanbul agape Prototype that's pretty rare out there. There's a few of them that can command good money Now that's a modern symbol obviously modern symbol company. They made so everybody knows the 25th anniversary Symbols symbol holic symbol freaks know that the the the 25th anniversary is a 20.5 inch symbol that came out. It was like the first agape that was blue Where everybody goes whoa? Here's a symbol that's blue, you know, so they put that out to thunderous applause and They did make a few of those That were sort of in a like what we're called a vizier Model which is I think the the underside is raw and the top side is lathe But the entire symbol is still blue. I have one on on the hazel should calm Museum page site there it there is one of those up there and that's an example of a modern symbol. That's rare collectible You know Istanbul agape has exploded. They've done really well Especially as a smaller company sort of just coming in and making a you know making a lot of Real estate for themselves through innovation and sounds and great marketing So that's an example of one, you know the Matt Chamberlain's signature Istanbul agape Those are very hard to find it was a 23 inch. There were two models I found one like maybe a year and a half ago. I put it up on Instagram. It was gone in like three minutes Wow, yeah, just awesome cuz yeah, and it's a beautiful symbol. It's a great symbol It's a 23. There's not a lot of them. They were very rare when they were made Like I said, there's I think there were two versions of it, you know, and I had you know, like my inbox I you know was like, yo, is that available is that available? I'm gonna buy that now Can you get another can you hit me up if I get enough and I was kind of like I do dudes It's I don't know. I just sold I just sold van Gogh's Sunflowers. I can't run out and find another van Gogh's I'll try Wow, you're always trying. I mean, yeah, this is your job. I mean you've like It sounds very obvious, but that's a very cool job Well, basically, I mean if you could if you could tell my mother that I'd be appreciative I swear mom get her on the podcast right now. No, there are some people who like me Yeah, it's something that I fell into I didn't wake up one morning I never wake up at 8 a.m. So I didn't wake up one morning at 11 30 a.m. Yeah, you know what I'm gonna do I'm gonna become a symbol expert and you know, that's it that didn't happen I sort of fell into it as a guy who's playing drums. I Looked at the price of a new symbol like everybody else. I went to a store and I was like whoa, okay I don't know if I can swing that right now. So I went to a pawn shop and there was a an old vintage 18 inch zilgen It had a dent in it and it was you know, I go, hey man, how much is this and the guy goes 50 bucks and I kind of looked at it. I'm like, well, it's old and it's used. This is about 25 years ago, by the way Yep, those pawn shops have gotten a little wise so yeah Tell me about it. I knew I knew that I was like I hit it and I was like, you know what this sounds pretty good And I got a gig on Friday like and you know, I thought I went back. I didn't buy it on spot I went back to a couple more shops. I played some other stuff. I returned to the pawn shop and I was like Jerry Can you live with a ding in your symbol if it's only 50 bucks, but it sounds great and I was like, what the hell am I even asking that question for? Yes, yes, I can live with the dent in the symbol and you know what by Saturday morning after my gig There's gonna be a second dent in the symbol that I put in. Yeah. Yeah, so I I bought the symbol for 50 bucks Had it for like two years played a lot of gigs with it loved it and I was I started to get You know off the you know, hey, we're buying tones. We're buying sounds, you know, I'm not buying brands I'm not buying new I'm not buying, you know, like oh my god the single head the symbol has fingerprints on it What am I to do and it's I don't know just put it up You know on the stand and play your music and and you know what if it doesn't suit you with the gig then take it off Sell it or trade it and get another symbol and put that one on the stand and hopefully that one suits you in your music, but you know Part of it was money. I didn't have the money when I was younger to go out and buy brand new everything and Also, I just sometimes I heard something used that sounded better to me than the new one. Oh Yeah, and it's kind of more fun to go hunting and I I'm a big believer in you know, you buy something You use it. Okay. Don't love it. You sell it Then you like like the money stain in the circle of like selling something where or you then sell it You make a little bit and then you can buy two things It's like kind of how you start a business But that's the fun of it of like I'm not out anything like I've done that with camera gear and video and And an audio so microphones and stuff is like well I'm gonna sell if I sold this mic. I would never use it to like pay my car payment I would have to put it into like a snare drum or something. You know what I mean? It's that's what it's supposed to be that that if you you know have learned that Then you're already you've won. You've won. That's that's how what I think, you know, I get a Lot of people who ask me You know What's the best symbol for X? I'm playing this type of music and I need to get the sound of blank and Sometimes that's important like I understand if you're in like a I don't know a Steely Dan tribute band or something You want to get like Steve Gad sound and you want to get that you want to be Yeah, you want to have a fealty to that sonic palette, of course I get it but There isn't a perfect symbol this is what I have realized is Because it's it's the question that I get asked the most like what do you keep on you know? What do you hold on to Jerry? What do you keep and you know? What's your most cherished snare and I'm like it is the six and a half by 14 Toma and like beat ass Toma Imperial star. I bought in Akron, Ohio When I was 16 Because not that it sounds the best. It's just the one that has the most value to me spiritually and personally Yeah, so totally that's my I'm not gonna sell drum and Yeah, when it comes to finding a perfect symbol, I you know or a perfect drum I would encourage everybody to view it like you would a book You know you you go out you buy a book now. You don't know entirely what the book says Until you read it now. You might look at the back cover. You might look at the inside There's a conspectus of well, but here's what the books about it's nonfiction Historical you go. Okay. I have a very I have an idea of what this does But I don't really know So you read the book and you either love the book you like the book Or maybe you give up on the book a third of the way through but it's not You didn't mess up like you didn't buy the wrong symbol or you didn't you didn't make a horrible mistake what you did was you learned and The experience of owning the symbol playing the symbol using it on gigs figuring out what it does Figuring out its limitations That is what you Gained and that's you know, it may have cost you a hundred and fifty bucks It may have cost you eight hundred and fifty bucks or twenty five hundred bucks but that is valuable in and of itself the experience of Playing it and figuring it out and if it's not working for you like a book You know give it to somebody else let someone else read it sell the book and get another book and figure out what that does Totally learning what you don't like is a lot of times just as important as learning what you do like so you can just avoid Doing that or do more of this other thing or buy more of this and Very true all of that is just extremely true and Let me let me ask you a question kind of circling back to some of the more symbol stuff Because it just occurred to me a lot of the things we're talking about are like in rare symbols A lot of the things you've said so far and this is kind of obvious to everything I've seen is ride symbol ride symbol ride symbol It seems like most of the rarest symbols are typically ride symbols What would be some examples of things you've come across that are let's say rare high hats or Rare crashes or rare splash effects symbols swishknockers What are some other symbols you find that's you know, Stuart Copeland? famous for his high hat sound right and he has put he you know It's it's the the late 70s early 80s. He had the piste blue label 602s I believe they're extra heavies and I think he played 13s Now he may have that may have switched out a little bit here and there that sort of thing But that's a perfect example. You got you got a famous high hat sound They're very very rare It's a rare period the blue label 602s were the like they it was throughout the 80s and You don't see that many of them as a matter of fact, I think they they you know Ushered that entire series out I think in like 1994 and they became increasingly harder to find if you know, everybody wants to see an example I have one on my site right now. It's a blue label Extra heavy flat ride. It's a 22 inch, which is extremely rare I think it's it might be a heavy flat ride. It's a it's a heavier and extra heavy, but it's it's it's up there It's a 22. It's it's it has a unique tone. It's kind of like the the Roy Haynes 18 inch model but deeper and a lot more real estate and kind of darker sounding but still very bright and you know overall very bright and with the A very pingy focused definition That would be an example of hi hats neil pert and neil peart. I should say he had the 13 inch new beats You know famous high hat sound You know, I I've had a lot of those from the the late The late 70s early, you know mid early to mid 80s models because that is You know a famous time for rush's recordings, you know moving pictures and signals and all that stuff Tom Sawyer, so 13 inch New beat hi hats from the 80s late 70s 80s. That would be another example. Um, you know, um If you're a ccr fan Well, I think they're 18 inch hi hats, right 18 inch hi hats. I don't know. Yeah, I know damn I don't I mean, I I you know I think I don't know if those were factory Like fat or or two. I haven't gone down the rabbit hole. I know someone out there has has plenty of answers on exactly What was used on those ccr recordings recordings? Um, but 18 inch hi hats Maybe there were two crash symbols. I can't remember. Maybe there were some custom one off That would be another example Steve gad, you know the the eak's the early k zildjans from the the the early 80s the you know Steve gad's entire symbols set up as famous, you know with the 14 inch hats and he played with like two 18s and They sound like magic when he's playing them Hmm remind me what eak means. Is that early american k? Yeah Early early american k which Got it. I believe, you know that came out like 81. There was a famous zildjain ad with tony williams and um I believe zildjain was hand hammering the symbols like they reintroduced hand hammered symbols for a brief window like maybe I don't know four years something like that and then the the eak's around 85 86 the k Craftsmanship sort of changed you can see it and you can hear it too And again, I have some eak's on the hazelshow.com website if anybody wants to hear them So cool. Yeah, your site is like a Even if you're not going to buy a three thousand dollar symbol or whatever It's just like a resource to go and look at things and see them for yourself. So you can be more knowledgeable, but what about like Early effect symbols like the swishknocker and things like that. Do you are those valuable? Do you come across them very often? That's a great question because the early early effect symbols like the swishknockers Um, those are damn near impossible to find like a swishknocker or a china like a zildjain china from the 40s or 50s is or They're a little more prevalent by the time you hit the 60s, but they're still pretty rare Yeah, the 40s and 50s ones are really really hard to find I assume it's because they didn't make very many and the ones that they did make Probably wound up on the wrong end of a 2b stick like in a black Sabbath tribute band in 1978 You know, there's just yeah gone. Yeah, so is there so they're they're hard to find but does that mean they're valuable? That's an amazing question. They are too they in yes, they are valuable the swishknocker, but but somebody did once say Just because it's rare Does not mean it's valuable and a little piece of my heart broke off that day because It's true. You can find something and be like i've never seen this before I don't know what it is. It's amazing and yet You throw it up for the you know for the great world of drummers to consume and they They they they say get away from me kid. You bother me Um an example that might be low boys like you talk about effect symbols like the hi-hat right was originally a low boy Well every once in a while you find those like nine inch Sort of brass symbols from way back in the day. They have a tiny little center hole And you're like this was probably an effect That you know metamorphosized into the hi-hat, but how cool is this? It's a hundred years old you know It it has this great history of this is a sort of precursor prototype to the hi-hat And it's just I don't know I find that a miracle that it survived a hundred years But like I think unfortunately drummers sometimes look at and they go yeah, but what am I gonna do with it? And you're like sure I that Sure, I could be like a centerpiece for your Thanksgiving dinner I don't know. I mean Celebrate it somehow So I you know, I I do think that sometimes people Drummers we get a little hemmed in by the marketing and what we're supposed to play I'm supposed to have a six and a half black beauty Because I'm supposed to have one as opposed to maybe thinking a little bit outside the box and being like all right I'm gonna find something to do with these low boys because they're kind of cool and I'm gonna do something with them. Yeah. Yeah And it's something though where you would see some drummer like there's guys now as we've all seen who set up like Like the frying pan connected to a stand and they play that and it sounds awesome or a trash can a literal trash can lid I I have that right now. Yeah, I literally have the zilgen frying pan right over there in the corner Which I don't think that was ever released But I do have one if anybody is interested and see what they look like they can you know DM me on instagram or Message me at hazel should drama yahoo.com and I will send you a picture of it. I probably will sell it one of these days I mean, so it is zilgen though. It's a zilgen. Like it is It's but not released because I've seen people playing them like Like I don't know whose the names are escaping right now. I know I've seen them But like how do they end up in the world with players if they're not being You know, is it just a I think straight from the factory kind of thing Zilgen does have sort of like their R&D department where they put things out there for people to try They may have had I don't know. Maybe maybe it was celebrating an artist like it's my understanding say somebody said Hey, I really want you to make a frying pan. They don't make one They're like, you know what if we're gonna You know make a frying pan. We're gonna make 30 and we're just gonna hand them out for fun if you would like I could uh Dispel all myth and conjecture and go get it. Okay. Jerry has returned So as we just said for people for people listening kind of in the car not watching video We'll do our best to explain kind of what we're looking at here And perhaps we'll hear a couple dings on this frying here. Here we go. Here we go. Let's say it ready. It's very exciting I'm ready Wow, that is a zilgen frying pan Can't cook your eggs on it though because you got a hole. There's a hole in a minute Yeah, I know so kind of you know, I mean, you know, you can put it next to the vik for salt and pepper shaker Yes, exactly. You read my mind. Yep. We're talking about Thanksgiving displays You know, um, yes, I do want to say on this zilgen frying pan for you symbol Freaks out there. It's 10 98 grams. They're always wondering what the gram weight is So your frying pan is 10 98 grams. One thing I'll give credit to zilgen. They put a stamp on it There's like the actual zilgen stamp not just the black ink, but the actual zilgen stamp You know the turkish symbols made in usa and they're in this case that you know, there's even the serial number on it Here we go. Let's see what it does. Let's see what it does. Yeah I mean I don't think there's a right or wrong way to play it here I was gonna say I think you're you're good Okay Effective It sounds good. Yeah, it does it does a thing It has a whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, nature to it like a Good wobble That's pretty cool, man. You know, I think that there was you know, there's sort of been this um Dustball revival type music You know, maybe the last 10 or 15 years we're talking about low boys talking about swiss knockers You're talking about um Early effects symbols That type of thing, you know the zilgen frying pan Although modern would probably go in there for some sort of boxcar hobo you know Jambery. Yeah, you have Yes, recycled items used as percussion instruments and stuff or which is all super cool I think that a lot of you know, we've we've all been through this era. It's like, you know, there's Goat hooves on the snare drum and you know dice on the floor tom and you know All sorts of paraphernalia draped all over the drum set. I think zilgen was probably just You know jumping on that say like hey, man, here's another interesting thing and it does do Yeah, I mean does do a little bit of a drum and bass effect thing Yeah So jerry as we get close to the kind of kind of close to wrapping up here I want to ask you like and I'm sure you're gonna you can tell me I can't answer it But the simplest questions that someone would probably ask you if you tell them what you do who's like Not really a drummer. They just want a quick answer What is the rarest symbol out there? I mean, I did own One of elvin jones's bell brass tom of snares I know that's not a symbol, but that is a rare piece. Yeah That's hard to say I mean god, that's hard to say there's so many symbols out there that are one of a kind unique Now if you talk about rare and worth value, he'd be like the most valuable Maybe the maybe the most value the most valuable. Well, obviously, you know up there is the tony williams k Yeah, um his personal his personal k, uh, you know things like Obviously like neil perz, you know Uh 22 inch Uh, I believe in a zildjian a and si he had a maiden canada ride, right? I think that 22 that would be. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, um You know john bonham's You know 15 inch 2002 sound edge high hats Got it. So the celebrity thing will really be what's what's adding to the like over the top john bonham's gong Yeah, yeah, okay. You're like, yeah, I know probably a dumb question But sometimes it's you have to ask those questions like what's the most rare or you know things like that but uh, that celebrity thing really goes far and some of those prices now you see online are like Geez louise. This is insane what things go for well and when you say like for instance, john bonham's gong You're like the person who's buying that may be a drummer But it you know, it can very easily be Uh somebody who's not a musician. They just love the history of it. And you know, I I actually do do a lot of um Brokering and deals with the hard rock. So I've I've I've done. I've had a lot of very famous uh celebrity owned drums and cymbals and drum sets pass through my hand and and I work out deals Um specifically with the hard rock. Um and do a very nice. Yeah, so I you know, yeah, um, all right So is there you've had so many drums and cymbals? Let's open it up to drums too Is there and maybe we forget about the the celebrity thing because that takes it to another level But is is there anything that you have yet to ever get your hands on? Maybe cymbal wise and drum wise that you're still hunting for that you've you've yet to be able to acquire I'm in a 24 inch Istanbul K is pretty hard I have one now I've owned maybe two or three, but they're pretty hard to find. Um, you know, if there was a 26 out there I don't know. I've never seen one. I love the huge cymbals There's some vintage zilgins from that are 28s 26s Um, I love the big cymbals love them. Um, yeah, that would be something I mean, I I will say if it's a cataloged item I have owned it That's awesome. It's not not and yet that's not so much bragging. It's just I just by waking up at 11 45 in the morning But still working hard Yes, I have over 25 years. I do really enjoy cymbals so much that, um You know, I don't really discriminate if it's a professional grade cymbal I hunt it down and I and I try and find it. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I try and you know what I try to sort of It comes through my hands and I want to put it in the right hands So if I get an 18 inch rude from 1984 There's a guy out there who's looking for that. So I want to put yeah It's kind of like I want to put the rude into the right guy's hands and I want to put the 13 inch 1981 new beats into the right guy's hands and I That that's really my goal because that way you get people who are happy with their purchases You get people who are looking for what they're looking for You know for me You know I was given these by maria. Some people might know the girl who knows nothing about cymbals on my instagram as a gift And you know, I love this. These are they're not the 900 series They're the 2000 early, you know the 2000 Pisces from the 80s They're a weird emerald apple green And I just like them because they're weird. This is what I want to play. But no, they're not worth a thousand bucks They're not worth 500 bucks. I'd be lucky if I could get 300 bucks 250 bucks, but I I love that stuff You know, I mean really the the takeaway like what you said about that your your tamas snare is like You're more connected to the the story of how you got a special symbol or one that was gifted to you Because otherwise it's you know, you're just doing your business But I think if you connect with a symbol, it is what it is. But you know, I like I like symbols as books too so the other day I had sort of like a I was playing this sort of Country gig and I just wanted, you know I needed a nice right down the middle symbol And I it didn't have to be anything crazy or fancy or 1500 bucks or whatever. So, you know, on the way out the door I grabbed this zildjian k 18 inch sweet crash and I chose it because it was Familiar to the ear I was like if I bring this it's just a nice sounding zildjian It's not gonna it's not going to disrupt these, you know, we're playing a number of covers like old-time country tunes I was like, it's not going to disrupt anything. It's not going to be boisterous too loud You know, and I learned what it did that particular symbol on the gig I was like, oh, I really like this. This is nice. I mean, would I bring it the next gig? Maybe not no, but I learned what it did it did its job. Yeah, and I and I learned. Oh, this is a little bit complex It's thin to paper thin It opens up in a loud capacity, but it's it it it blossoms in a quiet You know volume two And then sure that was enough for me as opposed to like I need to own this symbol The value of playing it on the gig and the experience of using it was like, oh cool. That was I had a great time The instrument was working with me. I wasn't fighting it yeah, and No, I probably will use something else next time not because it was bad because I want to continue to explore and learn Yeah Yeah, that makes perfect sense So on that note, you said to me before we started that people will very frequently ask you What should I play or what artist was using this and I want to sound like them So you are open to helping people with their journey, right? Like if people want to contact you then you're you're okay with working with them and helping them get their dream symbol. Is that fair to say? Yeah, absolutely. That's that's what you know when you you know, what is hazel should calm do or what do I do is hazel should I mean my name is jerry, of course, but a lot of people know me as hazel should I you know I I do want to get The right instrument and the right tool into people's hands so that they're when they're playing a show They're actually not Thinking about the symbol other than the inspiration. It's providing Like when I hit this symbol or I crack the snare I feel good But it's a subconscious thing because you're playing the show and you're having a great time and you're playing your music and You don't want to be taken out of the music which the music is Always the most important component always the most important component that I try to I try to tell people, you know The gear Has a role But it's also supposed to be really fun So don't get super hyper bogged down in the exact gram weight of that crud Symbol that ringo played You know Yeah, if you find one great if you want to find one it's fun to hunt If you find one and it's seven grams off the one that he played Have fun close enough. Yeah. Yeah, don't don't yeah Yeah, um, man, I feel like I could tell there's so many things that just keep coming to mind But like part of what you do has to be sort of like Seeing what might be the next big thing Kind of reading the the tea leaves a little bit about what's going to be the next popular thing That's going to be valuable any any tips or tricks on what people should I know you don't want to give away your secrets of what people should be Thinking about collecting in the future, you know the the interesting thing is the symbol and drum market Is a market like stocks and so people Pay into it or buy into it or believe it the same way they do with stocks like what's going to happen with Verizon What's going to happen with tesla? You know what is it should I buy now should I buy coca-cola now or weight after after the super bowl or whatever? You know what? I mean so yeah Drums and symbols are the same way, you know, it's it's And I think There's one thing that like a little piece of my heart dies on this one. I don't know why I think the dw craviados And the like the earlier craviados um Are something that I would you know something that I think are going to go up in value There at least something I think should go up in value when you have a drum And it's a solid piece of maple or oak or birch whatever and then It's now A lot of people look at and they're like well, it's old or it's used or well It's it doesn't look like a new one. It doesn't have the lustrous shine of the new one You're like, hey, that's wood or it's metal these things Tempor over time and they get sweeter kind of like the strat of various. They're better over time They age wood age as well. I would say the same about snare drums and cymbals too So I think those 90s dw craviados are fantastic drums. I I would buy those I think they're kind of I think they're undervalued myself Because like, you know, they're associated with Johnny craviado and they're now 20 25 years old and they just Consistently sound great That's awesome. Well, that's a good tip. All right, Jerry. Well, let's talk about indiana jones for a minute because you uh You host a podcast called the indiana jones minute. It's super cool not drum related at all But tell everyone about indiana jones. Sure. Sure. I mean, it's it's another Love I kind of just got sucked into it. I mean, I grew up for that that era Raiders lost dark sought as a kid and um You know living in los angeles and being in the music industry is fantastic playing drums buying drums hanging out with drummers It's great, but I did need You know, sort of another I needed something else it can kind of You can become a little one dimensional If you're always talking about drums all the time and and I realized that you bring in other aspects of your life And and then you kind of come back and you really enjoy music and the drums in a more fuller way so my buddies asked me to do this indiana jones podcast and um It's preposterous in a fun way. They we watch one minute of each movie You know, you watch one minute Like minute one or minute two and then you discuss, you know that one minute ad nauseam um to And so of course the premise is ridiculous You're watching one minute of the movie and you're talking about like the hats That the people are wearing in the bar and raiders of the lost dark like oh, wow, that's weird Like that guy's hats got hats that goes up and it covers his ears and they're in where they're in napal or whatever So you're like, okay. Well that guy's got a hat on and it's you know He's going to be cold when the bar closed because that's a very thin hat But what's interesting is you wind up We got a lot of guests and experts like we'd have a hat expert on the show And you start talking about hats and pretty soon you're like you're not really talking about the movie you're talking about life And um that was sort of one of the joys of it and you know with the new dial of destiny indiana jones 5 came out. We've done all of the movies um One minute at a time. So there's I don't know probably 500 episodes or something on the indiana jones minute. Yeah And we have to do the new one and you know, it's fun And the movie each movie is different. Yeah, I mean each movie is different and We just we just do it to kind of You forget your day and you have a good time But as we know with what we've just done for an hour and however many minutes You can and people always ask me like Do you have enough to talk about with the drum history stuff? And it's like i'm 217 episodes in and there's Zero shortage of episodes. There's no shortage of topics. Yeah, and you are Case in point of like if you find something that you like you can talk about it For a any number of of you can just dissect it and there's people who will listen, you know I mean, that's that's awesome. So i'm glad you're doing that So i'll put a link in the description for all of that stuff cool. Thank and hazel should.com which is just I mean it you it's it is very well curated I will link to all of your Pages and things like that, but you are very well Curated it's kind of the best of the best is i feel like you you know You really pay attention to what comes through your hands man. I appreciate that I mean if there's one thing that listeners could come away with i'll just encourage them to go to the site just to I mean the the going to the site is free You know or my youtube channel the hazel should youtube channel There's i don't know probably thousands of symbols that are up there and you just You know if you you're like what is an ed big pin crystal ride? Or i don't know what 60s 15 inch new beats sound like i'd like to hear them It's really it's yeah, of course. I want to sell stuff and all that but at the same time It's like there is a library of listening material and That sort of thing that I would encourage people to just go and like Look around it's it's free to just listen to things and learn about symbols And do you like pasties? Well, okay, what about the new the newer master series? Do you like those because that's kind of do you like pasties that came out 10 years ago? Or are you a vintage pasty guy? How do they compare to zildzans? Well, you can find all those questions out just by sort of listening to symbols on the site Yeah, what's the difference between an hh and an a a sabian? Well, you can listen to them and hear and see which one speaks to you Totally and and as we have Said multiple times throughout this it's really just about having fun I mean, that's you can spend all of your money buying symbols and and which you know There's nothing wrong with that But it's truly about having fun and enjoying what you buy and trying it You don't like it sell it and and it's cool. I mean, of course a lot of You know websites do this but you have gift cards Which is super cool as we're getting into like fall and towards like the holidays like You know tell tell your loved ones to buy you a hazel should gift card And go and get a cool symbol or drum I mean you have tons of drums which I I'm sure We'll probably have you back on the podcast at some point because you have so much knowledge So I'd love you to just think of some other cool Topics that we can cover down the road I have hundreds of things literally hundreds of symbols and drums that are not yet listed So I mean my one of my You know issues is I have to get them up as quick You know, I try to get them all up as as quickly as possible so that everybody can Hear them and see them. So I mean I have literally hundreds that are not even yet listed So I'd say just if you don't see something that you dig Come back because there's going to be something different next week. So Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then you you are I mean, we should have said this sort from the top I think it's obvious with most people on the show. You're a very esteemed drummer You've played with Dick Dale. You've got a whole you're a working drummer. Yeah, so that's that's always cool to know about as well but So jerry, I I mean, I think we told everyone I usually say where people can find you But you want to say your social media accounts and everything I'm pretty sure it's obvious But tell people where to find you the websites hazel should.com, you know, I'm hazel should on instagram If you're facebook, there's a hazel should facebook page and you know, I would encourage everybody I'm a little bit nuts. So if you want you can text me or call me my number is two one six five seven seven Seven five five two That's a good way to get ahold of me just text me and say hey, I saw you on the drum history podcast, you know, I you know I had a question about this symbol or that symbol. I'm happy to help I really am and you know on the website you can listen to everything if there's something up there There's a video of it so you can hear it and you know, I'm doing I'm doing videos every day So I'm happy to help people find symbols or at least find the sound that they're looking for Cool and all of that takes time and effort None of that soup. I mean it it all takes time. So everyone in the community appreciates you you doing it. So, um, it's haz l s h o u l d Jerry, thank you for doing this man. I had an awesome time talking to you and uh, I hope to have you back soon But uh, thanks for your time man. This is great. Of course part of it would be my pleasure I would come on to show anytime