 Hello guys, welcome to season three episode three of the recovery room We're here with the regular faces. Uh, if you want to just introduce yourself kim you go first Good morning. My name is kim billy quinlan. I am a licensed marriage and thermo therapist in california and usa uh dream Hello, everybody. I'm drulence a lot of creator and host of the anxious truth podcast and uh, the one officially with The rona today not really, but I just come along today bear with me. It's okay last night But not least josh you were with this fantastic message on his t-shirt It's my message. Honestly. It's great I'm josh refletcher anxiety josh psychotherapist here in the uk specializing I'm working with anxiety disorders and I write great books that you should buy so I can add stuff to my office Fantastic. So guys, uh, this week we're talking about self Uh, sabotaging and fantastic topic lots of questions to get through Before we do it. I just want to add a new segment which is anxiety in the news So i'm just going to pick I think we mentioned it last time Just pick a few topics. Obviously you guys haven't done your research on it. So it's just like a Your opening statement or just what you think of the news article the message that it brings and just your first take on it and The first thing I want to say though is drew Untangle your anxiety audio version. I believe it's a rap. Yeah It is a rap. I'm just waiting for the okay for you from you guys to hit the send button And it's good. It's good. It's really good That is so exciting kim if you want to tell everyone your fantastic news regarding your podcast as well That is something you should be shouting from the rooftops Yeah, I'm so excited. So your anxiety toolkit podcast was nominated as the best science-based podcast for anxiety For 2022 which is like of all the categories. That's the one I want to be in which makes me very very happy So thank you. Yeah, it's really exciting And joshua you've been working on some fantastic projects with some Well some brands that we might have heard of if you want to tell if you want to tell people what you've been doing Yeah, I've been working with uh, microsoft recently looking doing a project on productivity anxiety Um, I think it's nice. I think it's good that brands are doing this Not just saying mental health awareness week actually doing a whole campaign on the psycho education of productivity anxiety, which I agree. It's actually nice. It's actually nice to see that that's happening See it like just just to point off that seeing a link between consumerism and them Wanting to put psycho education behind their message as a brand. Yeah, I'm really all for that josh. It's lovely to see um, the first news article guys that that are pulled up. So I just want whoever to go first And just you're just your honest take and what what you think of it So I won't read the article. I'll just say the the news headlines and see what you think So massive birth cohort study finds young adults with social anxiety Are less likely to meet a range of educational outcomes He wants to go first without Did you say educational outcomes? I did You go first come I'm not surprised by that at all. I think that social anxiety does impact our ability to Be very present right because of your thinking about what other people may think of you We sort of understand that social anxiety is a shame disorder as much as it is an anxiety disorder So yeah, if you're in a place of anxiety, it's very hard to concentrate. It's very hard to ask to be get your needs met Um, it's very hard to advocate for yourself, particularly if you're struggling so that doesn't surprise me at all Um, anyone else want to add to that? Yeah social anxieties You tie to self-esteem isn't I like working social anxiety because it's the perfect thing to work with integratively You know whilst kim's being all dogmatic and ERPing the hell out of everyone I Can actually pull upon other modalities and be like, oh, why? What why why is your threat response going bananas when someone's looking at you? Particularly someone perhaps an authority someone who's loud Doing all these things and yeah, it can affect your confidence because It will help it will It'll make you doubt going for job interviews. It will help make you doubt believing that you can Put your all into an essay it can make you doubt kind of going up against people if you have to and then dog your dog world Yeah, social anxiety will make you doubt your ability. I'm also it will Often draw you to placate people and not placate people in their opinions as opposed to listening to your own Drake have you anything to add to that? I think those are good responses. I I would I have the question that pops in my mind would be I wonder how that gets impacted when the mode of learning switches to asynchronous online learning Where you're not face-to-face with that authority figure you don't have to interact Directly with the professor or the teacher or whoever the instructor or your classmates I have to wonder is that is that helpful for the person with social anxiety In the short term in terms of helping them cope with the class better But then again Is it harmful in the long run because it doesn't really help to move past the problem? So I'm not surprised at that result either and that's a great question. Great question And it's a double-edged sword isn't it why you say? The now so we'll do three headlines and we'll go into the self-sabotaging. So the next one is a large new study Concludes so it's a study from sweden over 400,000 people have been followed from birth to the age of 25 And the study concluded that a physical activity lifestyle has a long-term Association with the later development of anxiety disorders in both men and women So the people who had a more physical lifestyle was less likely to develop anxiety disorders I'm I'll take that one. I'm not surprised by that at all. That's really good news because I think so much of this Is when we get a we lose confidence in our own bodies when we wind up in these tough spots, right? So everything your body throws at you interpret as something dangerous and you start to see yourself as frail and Very easily broken it. I'm right on the edge of just literally just breaking down. I'm going to die My heart's going to give out So I think if you are in a situation where you are continually showing yourself Through this physical activity that you hopefully enjoy It's an enjoyable part of your lifestyle that your body is capable I would think that that is going to give you some natural resiliency against falling into that trap of No longer trusting your body or thinking that your body is frail and broken. So that makes sense to me Do you think people um with anxiety might read that and become obsessed with physical activity? Have you heard of that? Um, if you or josh all kim, have you heard people like thinking that physical activity is the answer to to anxiety disorders You get people literally running away from their anxiety literally I must get up and run. I must go to the gym. I must do these things So I don't feel anxious and people can take it the opposite way A lot of my clients don't know how to stop You know, I do droos talk, you know droos new books about taking the seven percent things seven percent slower I truly believe learning how to stop is a skill I that information It surprises me a bit. Um, I don't think I think it affects everyone who's super active and who isn't Um, I think after you've been diagnosed and you've got your confidence back if you have someone who Finds interreceptive exposure quite challenging. Then yeah, I think exercise in the long term is going to help you Not relapse into panic disorder But sometimes when you mix anxiety disorders with like other stuff that's going on You get people literally running away. I'm one of my mates He knows who he is. He won't mind me kind of mentioning this, but he just he's just completed that famous uh ultra marathon in the Sahara I know because he says that, you know, it's a good way for me to deal with my grief. I'm like, dude That ain't dealing with your grief You're like you're like running 125 miles and 50 degrees Celsius is insanity You know And yet but conventionally there's this narrative of Well, keep up the exercise you're doing right? Well, actually you can actually have a very unhealthy relationship with exercise too Um, whether it's anaerobic aerobic and even strength like people absolutely hammer in the gym They've got legs growing out of the shoulders, you know Because it's you know Kim what's your take on that? Well, I I'm not surprised I think what we're missing here is to what degree of exercise they're in the study, right? So if we're talking about 20 to 30 minutes of aerobic exercise I think that is an inter receptive exposure. It helps people to be able to tolerate the feeling of anxiety um So that doesn't surprise me at all But I think that there is a degree where as with everything it's nuanced that If you're going way beyond that and you're using it as a way to tamper your anxiety or in my case your Man anxiety management with exercise becomes a whole nother eating disorder issue Then then you've got another set of problems. So I think I think Uh, the big question I have is how much exercise are they reporting? Are they including the people who are over exercising? That would be an important question to ask to look into the research Fantastic great answers last but not least and then we'll get on to the questions from the community um Yeah, so coven anxiety accelerated memory decline In older people. So there was a study of 6,300 people who took an online study It's been published in a scientific journal He's saying that the experience of decline in the short-term memory Equivalent to six years of natural aging according to the study Because of coven anxiety or getting coven no because of coven anxiety I'm sorry. What was your name again? See what I did there Yes Is anyone going to take on that that was that was from the times as well. So, um, wait, so Having anxiety over coven 19 has resulted in some measurable Short-term memory loss for the older generation older generation Well, it would make sense because a lot of days a groundhog day as well like memory thrives off when things are different, you know, but like Surely days must kind of blend into one particularly if you're older and vulnerable I know of some people in my life of the older generation, you know, some people we've got like my People in care homes and stuff. It's just like it doesn't even you they don't give a short day the week is because it's the same It's the same thing. We can't see the loved ones. They can't do all these things It wouldn't surprise me at all that lack of stimulus particularly as well as as you know in psychology, it's easier to Like memories are stored when there's like an emotion attached to them And if every day is just a mindless dissociated groundhog day It wouldn't surprise me that there's a short-term memory loss and it's specifically short-term as well So it's like what what is there to remember? Apart from these amazing lives that we do But I think the question here is why is it linked to is it they've linked it to covid anxiety not That's the that's the The thing that they're reporting on so yeah, that's a great question So it could be are they are they linking it to people who are getting anxious within covid or is it literally specifically for The topic of covid again anxious about Yeah, the cool thing is isn't it in this segment is that we also can have people start to question studies Not that we're just invalidating them but to question going okay How are we differentiating that it's definitely the covid anxiety that's causing it without looking at the fact that there are other Lifestyle things happening at the same time. So we can start to not that we're questioning science at any case, but we can We're supposed to that's yeah That's the name of the game Yeah, so I think that that's where it's interesting right here is we I love this segment because I think it helps us to go Okay, that's really interesting. Could it be also that it's related to as Josh said groundhogs day and so forth It's hard to quantify isn't it? Yeah How would you separate that so skeptically like The problem the problem is when you're dealing with anxiety you often search Anxiety related things and people in the anxiety community will be coming across news articles such as this Right and I think generally from my patients when you have anxiety that memory loss is a thing for everybody Yeah, it was for me and a big deal, right? You're just you can remember like big events, but you're like, where did I put my Wallet like those kind of things are really difficult when you're managing a lot of anxiety I remember working. I was working on the phones in a company that I used to work for And I rang this Client I went through the whole spiel of everything I had to say and I was anxious During during that period I put the phone down and I rang him back again And they said to me you do realize you've spoke to me and honest to god I really had no recollection that that ever spoke to him and it that then freaked me out And caused I think it caused a panic attack at the time because I was like Geez, what's what's happening? So when people talk about these scurry anxiety symptoms that that's definitely one example Of me going through one. Yeah, I forgot that we wrote a book D Did you know the title? What was the title? Oh, yeah Because I forgot that as well links in the bio Right. So let's get on to the topic guys. I really enjoyed that by the way Just just just literally looking at the news Seeing what the talk about anxiety. So, um Drew, I think you came up with the topic idea again this week the topic master Why did you want to speak about self-sabotaging and how did it? How did you experience it on your anxiety recovery? Um, well, I mean it's a thing and you know what I could give big shout out to my facebook group because It is always fertile ground for for topics with such a large number of people discussing these things And somebody I can't remember who it was now, but you know who you are if you're watching Thank you for bringing it up and the question has come up several times like I'm worried not so everybody worries that they're not going to get better. That's a very common fear What if I never get better? But this is a very specific version of that I'm afraid that I'm going to sabotage my recovery Like I'm going to engage in self-sabotage and I've seen that come up a couple of times and it was fascinating to me I actually had to ask well, what does that mean to you? So it's not a thing that I personally had ever really considered You know All right, he's getting already and wound up He's like pulling up his sleeve He's got the bicep sign Um, but let me tell you I found it fascinating So I that's how it came up and did I have to deal with that? I honestly in in all honesty I've always you know up front about my experience. I never confronted that in my experience So I was a foreign concept to me that you would self-sabotage Josh over to you There exists many people in this world who genuinely feel discomfort But achievement and doing good things for themselves Um, it's sad. It's one of the saddest parts when you see lovely wonderful people who When something good happens to them, there's almost there's a cognitive dissonance between Acknowledging that it's happening to them. It's almost like, um Yeah, it's just quite sad when it happens. So what you need to do is you need to be like What I do as an integrative therapist is that I look at the reasons as to why You Why you can't accept that so if you do really well with your exposure and you do a successful exposure I know some people just refuse to acknowledge that because something good happened to them And what I like to do is unpick why What is it and actually you you'll find a multitude of reasons being not like a standard reason will be actually receiving praise was never normalized to them receiving encouragement was never normalized to them and that feeling is a is as alien As the exposure itself sometimes and that's really important and you've got to remember that like if people are getting stuck exposures, it's like actually Oh Not only am I doing this new feeling and expose myself, but also I have a feeling of what pride self satisfaction happiness. I'm exposing myself to that too. It's completely new to me Hmm So so from let me Take it from a different angle. Thank you, josh, of course um I think Our brain loves to come up with many ways in which You won't get the life you want That's fear's job, right? It's job is to go bad things might happen to watch out for that How what's you know? What if what if what if And I also think it's a normal part of the brain's response to go. What if you've missed something? What if you're doing something wrong? um, and so I often tell patients if they're having the fear of self sabotage is to treat it like any fear Which is just content that the brain comes up with Right But but in addition and I know I weighed in on this in our previous chat I do have a patient to Get better And are so overwhelmed with how they have to catch up in life because anxiety has taken so much from them that They do say it's almost easier to be in the disorder So, um, there are a couple of thoughts that we can extend on if we like Guys I can see it To be honest with you dean, I think it's your are you using that blue microphone using the blue yeti No, the smaller condenser one. Okay Because when you when you type it's oh, boom, boom. It's loud and clear if there's a the condenser is picking up everything I think last time dean you used a different mic. Didn't you? Sorry guys. We'll work it out one second Yeah, yeah, there's tremendous. I can hear the feedback loop Can you hear me now? Yeah Yeah, we can hear you Better That's better. Oh, it's only kim Oh, I could hear I could hear everyone echoing. Oh, okay Maybe is it possible that it's reached or you It could be it's possible because I know josh and I don't hear an echo. So sorry guys I can't hear josh. Oh I I just changed some of my settings. Did that help it? Oh, sorry? Dean's echoing and kim's echoing. D drew is not echoing. Yeah, I don't hear echo. Sorry guys Um, it could be reached going before now. It started in the middle, right? Sorry. Yeah, kim kim kim zack away Yes, too It's literally re streaming Yes, literally they've taken themselves very seriously In the meantime, I will convey my feelings about Unqualified coaches through the modicum expressive dance Oh, please no Expressive dance Does everyone have any settings the echo cancellation on Yeah Yeah, that's that's a new setting. So Sorry guys, we're working this out Anyway Just yeah Guys No, let's let it roll keep it going. Yeah. All right, so I got a great question and that was his exposure valuable if you don't feel anxiety within the expo Goodness You are for me. Yeah, this has got to be a restream thing it has to be I'm the only one Dean is great Because you're because it's through your stream, maybe that's why it's not echoing Yeah, that's why I'm thinking it's a restream thing if I'm the only one not echoing. It's my stream. So yeah, something's up Did you get the question? I don't I like repeated it five times Yes, I got it Is it that one is exposure? Yeah, I can talk for all. Yeah, great. I mean the guy would lose in his voice Is exposure useful if you don't feel anxiety? Yes, Josh, you're just super low for me now, by the way, you're quiet You're super quiet now I'll answer the question Go for it. Exposure is not just about anxiety So you if you're if your fear is anxiety, then you should have anxiety in exposure Some people don't have anxiety. They have disgust obsessions. So then the exposure should focus on disgust And some people have uncertainty and therefore Focus should be uncertain uncertainty. So you don't have to have anxiety for the exposure to work Great great answer. It would depend on the fear Yeah, we might we might generalize that question to discomfort. It would depend on the aversion Yeah And the thing is if you tool the end of your anxiety recovery, then you might be dealing with less anxiety is is anyway Yeah That's a common mistake because I think a lot of people get caught in I'm trying to find a way to do my exposures without the discomfort or with you know, like that if if I do it and I don't haveings that's a good one, but That's not really a good one like In the end Next question guys. How do we tell the difference between self-sabotaging and actually need an arrest? Anyone Well, I think maybe we want to before we move forward, we may want to define what self-sabotage is, right? So self-sabotage from my perspective is Where you're getting in your own way based on what's best for your long-term recovery, right? And and that's even a broad term because sometimes we can just do the best we can Would you agree that as a definition of self-sabotage? Yeah, and I think it has to be it's either intentional or Maybe it's it's a little bit not intentional, but yet not desired. I know I'm doing this But I don't want to be or I am intentionally doing this. I'm going to throw a grenade into my recovery So I think that's part of it, too Yeah, so this this person isn't to literally say and Then taking a rest is that sabotage and Anxiety recovery should they still be continuing to do exposures? Well, I don't believe in I don't think so mental mental illnesses don't really have time to rest meaning like I've often if a client says to me I'm going to take off a month. That's fine. I'm not against them taking off a month But as long as you know that you won't Take a lot of steps in recovery for that month So I think that it's okay to take a rest but to also be really aware of the outcomes Is that self sabotage? No, sometimes you need to take off a month to get your motivation back up and Get through the holidays or whatever you want um And so again, it's self sabotage You could look at it from the lens of are you doing it from a place like self judgment? Like place is bad and I'm bad for doing it or just Sometimes we can't perform that off. I am Interestingly the person in my group who had asked about self sabotage when I asked them about it It wasn't self sabotage at all or I would not have to find it He was just concerned like what if I start to latch on to the the anxious thoughts again And I start to those old habits And I'm like, well, that's that's normal everybody struggles with those things That's not self sabotage unless you're intentionally doing it Or you have a habit of doing that and you can't stop yourself and you don't want to be doing that So it's it's a really it's a great area. It's a weird area, you know Yeah, I'm sorry a great question just on the Face well there Does the exposure to become a compulsion if they use as a way to get less anxiety leading up to a big event? Josh So again Dean leading what was leading up to a big event? I'll put it up on the screen. Yeah Come on Wow, the technology gods are just against us today And do exposures become a compulsion if they used as a way to get less anxiety Leading up to a big event. There you go Uh, no I don't think so. I mean, I don't think exposures I mean, it's paradoxical that sentence because if you're exposing yourself to a feeling that you don't want Then that can't be a compulsion really A compulsion is when you do something to minimize the discomfort that you want to feel but if you're doing true exposure Then yeah, I think what I take from that is that What I hear a lot is people miss can misconstrue what exposure means. They just think that if I go stand somewhere and white knuckle for a bit That's exposure um when actually No, I I'd probably say No, the more exposures the better in anticipation to to an event. That's what I would do Definitely, and I don't I don't think it becomes a compulsion unless Your interpretation of exposure is not correct Or the goal what's the target that that person is aiming at I must get less anxiety before the wedding As opposed to I must get better at actually experiencing and moving through this anxiety So when I go to this wedding, I will do better that way So I think that could be a bit of a thing. I must do more exposures so that I have less anxiety That could be a bit. I've seen that turn into a compulsive behavior with people Remember that compulsions are usually a repetitive behavior. We do with urgency So if you're doing it, of course with the goal of getting better That is this recovery treatment But if you're doing it with urgency of like this must go away There is probably a very good chance that you're doing it to Rid yourself like to try and remove anxiety from your life. And if you're doing it in that urgent way, you might be in trouble 100% So once I know it's self-sabotage feel like a pattern just like my other disorder thinking And so it can happen subconsciously The Grand Canyon comment is so funny Canyon edition we are bringing you around to all the natural wonders of the world. This is what it would sound like We were helping you recover And we can say we're wilfully tolerating this uncomfortable echo surrender to the echo Yes A new definition of an echo chamber Drew, can you get that you see what come on up? I think they've asked it a couple of times Yeah Sure, we'll throw it out. Okay. Well, actually do we want to take the one self-sabotage feel like a pattern like So it can happen. Oh that was the question. It was more of a comment Okay, so this question. I've been going through very bad digestive issues to the the parent. I can't get out Say it say the word Oh, yeah, no, I'm fine with that. I have no aversion to the word poop poop poop. We'll just say it for the rest of the time I was going to hear you say pooping The echo will repeat it It's a super common topic you guys know that like a lot of people get fixated on the whole pooping thing We know this We should do a poop session maybe I've done some weird things in my time, but no, I love you guys, but I don't you're gonna have to play that before I agree to it Like defecating That's better Everybody thinks him is so sweet, but now you see how you see So once for um, it's wanting to be alone and go through an anxiety disorder Self-sabotaging or should I be getting other people involved? Wait, did we answer that question now about about the digestive issues? Like I don't think we did let let me just assure you This is a super common thing Like we actually have words for it. We have phrases that everybody understands. I had butterflies in my stomach I thought I was gonna hurl. I had to run to the bathroom. Nobody questions that like yes, that's that's an issue You know, it's it's not an uncommon issue. It's not a pleasant issue But I think like anything else when you treat that as a special kind of thing You know, we have bathrooms and we have ways to do that and we have to learn to work our way through those unpleasant things Um, so it's not it's not an unusual thing a whole I'm having digestive issues very common 100% um, I said to you guys um with the flight anxiety So before again on a plane I'd just literally be in the bathroom like until they were calling my name I don't know. Do I mean, how much do I can is in this? where they say Your ancestors would get rid of all the waste because they didn't need it To run away from the the things that were In the danger. Is there any science behind that or is that just Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we have all of these um physiological processes that help us because of our need to run away from danger or freeze from danger um, so some people say they need to urinate some say they need to defecate and that does provide you The ability to run longer distances because you've got half a pound or less inside you or Or more depending on what your bowel movements look like um Absolutely same for vomiting I'm being serious why we can't have nice things So same goes for vomiting. I have some client who will vomit and in exposures quite regularly and that's just their body's way of Eliminating weight and and that's part of the normal body Getting rid of it. Sorry I am a lady. I am a lady Wow Wow 14. All right Oh goodness All right, let's let's hit me get choking on his drink. I think so too. I think he had I think he had Coked down the wrong well You okay brother? We knew this was going to be so entertaining today I don't know. I think the person not actually is winning Yeah, evidently I'm the only one that's supposed to be talking today and I cannot trust you guys to talk anyway clearly The rails Yeah, I'll pick it up. That's fine So what was the question the last question that you brought up Dean? Let's let's head up back to that Before you inhaled half a can of coca-cola Do you remember what the last question is? I'll grab a question. That's fine I will grab a question. So one of the things that is here's a common one We should talk about the one of the things I want to talk about too is the self sabotage Like I'm afraid to be better We're done. We're off the rails. I'm muting everybody. That's it. It's all over The beautiful irony the romanticism of having an episode that says self sabotage and right and and here we are just Firing repeatedly into our own collective fun Sorry guys, hopefully it's a painting Let's try let's try this one. Can you please tell me how to stop thinking? Is that self sabotage? Thinking thinking that she's never gonna get better. Is that is that self sabotage? No, that's self doubt So self sabotage is different self sabotage is when you It's an impulse Often my mum does this a lot where she'll be doing really well and then just suddenly That's that feelings unusual and there's an impulse to kind of almost out of intrigue to see What would happen if I do that how strong are the foundations here of this How strong are the foundations here of this positive feeling that self sabotage? It's when people go. How strong is it? How can it resist this? and a lot of time no and Often self sabotage does have some kind of deep roots. Honestly. I know that I always hang on about roots to stuff particularly with anxiety disorders and how they're a lot of crap but in general with self sabotage And and and it's usually to do with Harvard anger and stuff I know mine was based to self sabotage all the time because I anger and grief and Survivor guilt that I just never spoke about You know outside the realms of an anxiety disorder So, yeah, I would honestly look at self sabotage separately. I'd extrapolate it from your recovery and look at it separately That's my opinion and my opinion is gossip So many people when they're going through an anxiety disorder Don't think that they're going to come out the other end I know that There was no light at the end of the tunnel. There was nobody telling me That they've been through an anxiety disorder, which I thought that was me. So that is super common that, yeah I think I think it's important to identify the source of your thinking without being analytical of depression Is very commonly presented as negative thoughts. So we would call Someone with depression as having self sabotage Um self down as jeshua said is another presentation That we wouldn't call self sabotage That being said I do think there are some cases where we Are we do say really self critical things? um Because it's some you know, it's you know the saying it's better the devil, you know, sometimes it's easier to say Um, you won't get better. I've had clients where and I really question them. Like, why would you say that? They'll say it's just so scary the idea of getting better. It's I have so much grief about it Um, and so so it can be complex. I think it's important that people Speak with the therapist if they have access to one to help them Number one be assessed correctly to make sure they don't have depression, which could be what's going on Yeah, look at this. Nikki made a really good comment along those lines kim Like I myself do feel a bit scared of recovery not knowing how my life will be without this long-term anxiety So I think that sometimes self sabotage like well I'm a little bit afraid to be better because now I have to show up Now I have to engage and I've had been in this bubble for a long time that I hate But at least it's safe and it's comfortable and and people will sort of accommodate me a bit And and I don't have to do stuff yet. You don't want to be in that bubble. So I get that Did any of you guys deal with that the the fear of wanting to recover? Because I'm just going off a personal experience that was I really couldn't Relate to that because the one thing I wanted to do was it was get back to this non anxious me And and yeah, well, why does that occur from from a clinical point of view or any of your experiences? There's there's a spectrum of reasons as to why I mean when we discuss anxiety disorders, there's usually a formula that we all kind of Meet with you know Give over with your compulsions. No safety behaviors expose yourself to the stimuli things like that But I do believe that there are things that are external outside the realms of an anxiety disorder that works So for example, I'll be very honest to you and share an evocative story that would be hilarious with an echo um, but like it's I when I was 90% recovered from an anxiety disorder Um, there was a part of me that didn't feel like I deserved to because I lost my brother at the time And I didn't and I did self sabotage and I did do these things I did sit inside of wallowing depression anxiety Because deep down when I worked with the therapist because he was like, why am I here? Why is my little brother not you know and people have this shit going on in their life all the time? It's not just this is the anxiety disorder. There's shit going on around if you're in an abusive marriage You might not think that you deserve To get better you're not you don't deserve your autonomy your independence if someone's constantly Dripping to you that you don't deserve that it's The anxiety disorder itself The mechanism is the same and we all sing off the same M. Sheen But there are things that exist outside The I do recommend counselling for don't take your anxiety disorder to counselling because a lot of people don't get it You can do that. You can use psycho education But I do love counselling when there's just shit going on particularly when there's stuff that's really really heavy Um, because that can be a hindrance to your recovery from anxiety disorder So would you say it's more common with people who are dealing with anxiety and depression to not want to recover? Well, I don't I actually sometimes just lose the labels there So I I didn't have I didn't when I was 90% recovered from anxiety disorder. I didn't have anxiety or depression I wouldn't have meet met the the nice criteria. This is why I always skeptical with things like that because Clinically, I wouldn't have met any of that But I had some weird shit just going on personally You couldn't pigeonhole that The I don't feel worthy of of recovery is more common than we think and it's heartbreaking So I'm with you josh like yeah, that's that's a tough place for someone to be No And so I'll I'll add as I think that deserving this is a huge reason people self sabotage for me It wasn't a huge part of my recovery, but it was a big part of Sort of me really thriving as someone who had anxiety was I would self sabotage because if I really finished it And really hit all of the final pieces Then I wouldn't like I was using it as a as a reason to rely on my partner Right, like if I did it all on my own then I have to do it on my own and that was really scary for me So I would kind of self sabotage a little bit to keep my dependence On on him until I was like wait this is keeping me so stuck in so many areas And that's where that final I even talked about this recently. I've still recently just catching this like I'm here in America by myself. No family just my husband And I didn't realize I was self sabotaging in some areas because I was like Oh, I need to make sure this person is here and and that was a big Like recovery revelation to me Hmm really interesting Someone's pot. Um, I suppose anxiety means you give yourself attention Attention, sorry. It will be negative Um, how can we change our self-attention to nicely? Dream for that. Yeah, I'll put it up here. Um, that's nicky again So I think the one thing that I would probably point out initially and there's a ton of great Uh, I think responses. I have Kim is going to have a bunch She's the queen of self-compassion and then there's a lot of good stuff in here. I know it's going to come out but I would probably caution you to expectations matter Like in these situations, we do not get to just decide to think different like oh I just now I have to just think nice things about myself That's the whole sort of like pop psychology like the thought turned a negative into a positive like you having bad thoughts Think happy thoughts. We can't if we could do that. We would not be here doing the recovery room right now We wouldn't have to Before you carry on what what do you think about? What they say that well if you continue to do it almost do it as a practice That your brain then starts to believe and agree that this pattern might be maybe maybe you these positive things You're saying about yourself are true I mean, I I could tell you what my experience is in a large crowdsourced environment is that doesn't work long term You know, it's sort of a form of thought suppression or thought changing which is pretty well studied at this point And we know that doesn't work so well. It's a good framing thing. So like yes, I need to be kinder to myself I need to try and find the positives in my life all reasonable statements But we can't take it to the extreme that says well, I should just find a way to be able to think differently I just should just think different because we we just can't we can't seem we don't get to decide what we think We get to decide how we interpret what we think and how we react to what we think But we don't generally get to decide to do that, especially when those thoughts become Really strong and intrusive We can't just decide to think different things It just doesn't seem to work and it tends to cause more distress. I can't stop these thoughts I can't turn them into positive thoughts So, you know, we talk all the time about leading with behavior More than anything else you act different and I know that sounds crazy too But you act different before you think different in my world and that I think the best example that I give not blowing my own trumpet Well No, two people can have the same thought but the behavior towards the thought creates completely different reactions So someone could could think anxiously towards that and then they would get an emotional and physical response to that Whereas josh for example might think of the same thought and he'll have a completely different response So it's not the actual thought as the issue is your behavior towards the thought Yeah, like for example, uh, we could have the thought I want to read untangle your anxiety But then you might have the impulse to buy the audiobook and I might have the impulse to Wow I would say I would say to this is I think is a beautiful intention into wanting nice things into wanting to think nice things But I think that we've missed like like Like drew said we've missed the mark in that you don't just to positivity So instead of going how can I think nice things? That I would actually first start with how can I Be nice when things aren't nice Right, that's a change in perspective that lands better particularly for people who have an anxiety disorder or shame or grief or whatever it might be um, so I think I would first start with tending to your pain before Jumping to positivity. I think that there is way more More effective outcomes in that approach Interest Because what people think they will if I just continually say these positive statements to myself that Eventually come true And then like say there could be the frustration that is not coming true and they could actually take it backwards stuff. Yeah Yeah, yeah, it could be really difficult Guys, um, we're coming up to the hour mark. I don't know if there's any questions You want to the highway that you can see in the charter and then before we wrap it up There was one that I wanted to bring up. I know victoria has asked several times, uh, which is She's saying, you know, how do I stop? The bad experience during exposure. I'll try and find it, but it's up there How do you stop a negative experience during exposure from wanting from stopping you repeating the exposure? Right, so that she's essentially saying well, I do my driving exposures I feel really bad during those exposures and therefore I don't want to do them again And I you know, so we should probably address that that's an expectation I think I think that goes back to josh when you always say When clients come to you and say I haven't been anxious this this week you tend to I well That's no good because that doesn't mean that you practice your response to the anxiety um, so Yeah dealing with the the bad response during the exposure. That's all part of the recovery Yeah, that's go practice being anxious Practices how good at you are being anxious that's that in a nutshell. How good how good can you get Being anxious and we're talking to dean who's always had like a lifelong fear of flying and and when he went to fly he was He went in with that mentality, you know, how good can I About being anxious and he did really well better than he's ever done, you know with help from kim and mockery from me and drew, you know, it got through it His real friend and his two Ed friends Can I with all sincerity and I want all your opinions here because I know sophie and Sophie is doing exposure with driving anxiety I know it's not necessarily self sabotage, but whilst she's watching and I've got you guys here Can you give your best tips for driving anxiety? To sophie because it applies to other anxiety to give your best tips to sophie and um Let's hear what the pros and kim have to say Let me I'll kick start so we drive drive people think that because I'm driving And I get anxious that it must mean that it's fearful that I'm in a dangerous situation People often forget that when you're anxious, what does that mean? You're more aware you're more focused So when you're anxious and driving The likelihood is that you're actually going to be driving better than if you wasn't anxious So if you if you get anxiety while driving my advice would be to continue But always know that if you have to pull over it's not the end of the world You can pull over and then continue on your journey But just because you're getting anxious and driving it doesn't mean that you have to stop driving Yeah, that was my jam driving anxiety thing was 100 my jam and I spent so much time driving around Feeling completely derealized completely Depersonalized like in in full panic and I learned that you know Yeah, I pull over once in a while in the beginning, but then I learned well I could go another few minutes. I can go another few minutes and It what Dean just said is really magical in some instances because what I discovered was when I would be in the habit of like Uh-oh, I got to hurry up and get home I was driving at like formula one levels at that point. You're bob. No kidding like you're but you're going through traffic And you are really you're amazing at navigating cars So if you've ever been in a driving situation where you panic and you run home I want you to think about how quickly you're able to get home repeatedly and not wreck that car And again, though, you can't always pull over but it's about learning that just because that alarm is really loud This is dangerous. It feels so dangerous. It doesn't mean that it's true And and I know that driving feels like a special thing because it's a car and I know driving is dangerous You know if you have to pull over you can pull over pull over and then get going again It's just a repetitive thing. It really is in the end. What what would you say if they said My arms feel like jelly my legs feel like I'm going to lose control and what if I can't pull over? What if I'm on a wrinkled or the freeway and there's nowhere to pull over? Yeah, it's okay 100 take a flamethrower to the words feels like 100% oh you love feels like I love feels like it feels like it feels like it feels like and it never has been And sometimes I know I get a little heat for that who flamethrower heat making little fire puns here but Like I would take a flamethrower to the feels like because feels like is dragging you up and down the street And embarrassing you and ruining your life and if you keep following what it feels like Even though reality keeps showing you that it isn't that Then this is what happens I just I just wanted to give an example Yeah brutal When I I often go hiking so I can be on the side of a cliff and I get the That exact feeling of my legs feeling wobbly and what what you just said that the lady deals with Now that's a response to my body wanting to protect me from not falling off the cliff So I think that she should relate to that that it's your natural response. It's your body's natural response To keep in you safe I didn't fall off the cliff. I'm still there Oh, we were so close we were like Everyone was saying they loved it though, so maybe we should have more we still have people here. It's amazing I I'll give you a quick before we start to wrap it up I used to be in the car driving to my office in the days that I had to do that In the midst of my recovery and I would feel like it felt like I can't feel my legs Do I really feel my legs and for a little while I had this ridiculous ritual where I would get out of the car Walk in the building and I go to second floor I would look to see if anybody was in the lobby and I would jump up the stairs like a fuck Because I needed to prove to myself that I did Yes, and and how crazy Is this after doing that three or four times and realizing this is the I wish I had video of doing that Is this why you have kermit the frog behind you very possible? Maybe maybe that's why I'm so partial to kermit, but it did I did it three or four times and I thought this is insane I'm literally like I'm reinforcing this. This is a this is the wrong thing to do But it did teach me like feels like is bullshit. My legs were fine I was jumping up two and three stairs at a time While convinced that my legs were rubber and not working So I have no sympathy for feels like I have sympathy for you Just not the feels like it's not it's not the And then no, it's not your body's response to tell you to stop driving. No, it's a Justing that right you've interpreted it that way. Yeah. Yeah. So I all I would add here is Anytime I'm doing driving exposures. We do a lot of psycho education around the practice of curiosity Staying curious because naturally when we're anxious we go to black and white thinking This feeling means my body is shutting down me panicking means I'm dangerous and we have all these beliefs and So if you can bring curiosity, I sit in the passenger seat pre covid and they'll be like I'm freaking out and I'll go What else do you notice? And they'll be like I can't feel my legs What else do you notice and that's all I do is I just sit there and and have them work through All of these concrete Inflexible thoughts that they have we're not correcting them We're just working on noticing how the brain when we're panicking goes black and white From your job the muscle you can strengthen is curiosity in those processes. Yeah That's cool. Sophia. I don't know you but I would let you drive me around right now I swear to god I would get in the car and let you drive me around anywhere And you can understand why people people are so fearful of the driving because obviously they're in control Of a vehicle and there's people all around and driving. So you understand why the danger comes that Well, when they're feeling that anxiety that they think that it they're not going to be able to cope of that They're going to put themselves or other people in danger. And it's only natural to ask them questions But how often do people get in the car and arrive at work and they can't remember a damn thing that how they got there It's because You don't need all your faculties to drive to a place Honestly, yeah, I drive to work all the time and all I'm listening to is the panic pod podcast available We haven't seen one of these we haven't had one of these episodes in a long time He's in rare form today. The analyst in me wants to know what's happening with josh this week Yeah, I have personal therapy on Tuesday The subject of my father came up, but now I just want to uh, I just want that I'm worthy. I'm worthy. I'm worthy. Love me Guys, I think that's the perfect place Everybody tell them they love them I definitely think we're just still close there. There's been some really good Questions and answers and a little bit of comedy and the echo that's growing on pig. So The echo is growing on me. Can we have it every week? Might be our new thing. Yeah, maybe Guys, are we working on anything this week or is it just headstand and continue in doing what we do best and that's support the anxiety community Yeah, what are we working on? I'm I am working on creating systems for my staff Doing a lot of educating and getting them really set up. That's my big project this week Dream and are you finished on tango? Yeah, we're working on well, I mean, I can't really talk about it too much yet But we're working on that new that new community site that we've been Hatching behind the scenes. Yeah, so that we're going to start talking about very soon. That's been good brilliant and josh Obviously a microsofter we've we're finished with microsoft Pretty much a couple more radio interviews finishing microsoft I'm working with people at the moment stuck in ocd recovery cults Based in the uk Just before we go head. Can we talk about how great the documentary was? What what did you guys think? Anyone? Yeah But yeah, I'm working on that Finishing untangle your intrusive thoughts, which is good reading kimberley's book tomorrow that arrives finally Don't know what they've been doing. I think they've been handwriting, but I'm really looking forward to reading that Because there needs to be more literature on ocd and intrusive thoughts And the audio version of untangle your anxiety will be coming out soon And we promise you that it won't have this echo or maybe it won't Yeah, this this is an example of drus Yeah, I was gonna say There's an echo. I'm doing something seriously wrong It was actually There is no group talk in entangle your anxiety audiobook it'll be fine. I can I can vouch for that. I listened to the whole That's good Since drew finished listening to the whole book he ain't been anxious once I have not been anxious once I'll lose my voice and I'm sick. I don't know if there's a correlation, but maybe Anyway guys Yeah, thank you so much drew. I think it's time to roll the credit roll the clip. We'll see you guys next week Good luck