 everybody welcome back to a very special episode of esoteric Atlanta this is an episode that I've been super super excited about I don't know if I was telling you this Kelly off-camera but I was telling somebody I feel like people are so attracted to these stories because it's it's the story of the resilience of the human spirit really at the end of the day once you get through all the sensationalism it really is the story of of how resilient humans are and I'm so excited to have you Kelly on this show before we get into this you guys Kelly was a she's a survivor I didn't want we'll talk about the whole victim thing later on in the episode I was like no this girl is a fucking survivor we're just gonna she like got herself out of this and you know so as Kelly does have a book I'm gonna share it here on the screen unapologetically glorious I actually ordered it I was telling yesterday it got lost in the mail I think it's Atlanta's problem though so I had to reorder it but I will be putting Kelly's book down in the description box below as human beings you know I this is why we still study Shakespeare and all the old writings because as human beings regardless of where you come from what's your background is we all relate to each other unless you're a psychopath which we all relate to each other in these stories of overcoming great obstacles so how are you doing Kelly I'm doing great I'm so excited to be here I love your energy I love it so I saw you on I think I've seen you on a couple episodes on Andrew's Andrew Gold's channel I was like I have to get in contact with this girl and we've had a few numerous long conversations on the phone I feel like I've known you forever so I'm so excited to introduce you to my audience and you truly are such a remarkable human being and you are just like a lot of everybody on this channel is a seeker anyway trying to just figure out why we're here what's the bigger meaning of life and this is kind of where I think the story starts with you because as seekers we find ourselves sometimes stuck in situations that we unintentionally got ourselves in and they turn it out to be cults or high-control organizations and so and that was your situation with nexium so for I know as I was saying you a lot of my audience members have seen the vow they have seen seduced I will put links to those in the description box as well guys in case for some reason you have not heard of this but I know like in South Africa and some other countries they haven't gotten that yet so Kelly can you just in a very base level what was nexium what wasn't so nexium was introduced to me as executive success program and the executive success program was this human potential sort of self-awareness guided classes that were to help build you as a human being so as a seeker you know you try all kinds of things you think okay maybe this one has the answer so I had come to a point really where I felt like I had done so much and it seemed to seem like the next step and these classes just seemed like they were just going to be great and they actually were they were amazing classes and that's what I was telling you yesterday on the phone you guys like and that's one thing I hear a lot of people say with a lot of people who come out of cults like so many people think oh I'll never fall for this I'll never fall for this but we all fall for this stuff especially when we are looking when we're a good person and we're healthy minded we never can perceive it a world and where someone would try to do us or someone would whether it be ulterior ulterior motives behind and I know it branched off right there was like genus there was all these different elements that kind of incorporated next so it's like people could come in at different from different angles correct well so nexium think of it as a big umbrella with a bunch of different companies and curriculum so and under the umbrella of the curriculum so one level down you had many branches of that everyone had to take the basic curriculum first which is a 16 day course before they could take anything else I took a lot of curriculum and you're encouraged to take curriculum if you stayed in the community like I did yeah it was expensive too they really I actually did the I was doing a math on some of the prices I just heard from people because I can't yeah looks like the website website is completely taken down and what somebody would spend on a couple of courses I've maybe spent in 10 years going back and forth to India yeah it was very expensive and and the people that were being recruited were already people that had taken courses so of course they are recruiting people like themselves who have some access to resources or have the resources themselves or can ask a parent or friend to borrow or credit cards or something so it kind of it was in that arena and I wanted I wanted to bring that up because like when we think about this type of these high control organizations they're not looking for stupid people they're not looking for for people who are just down in the dumps can't pay their mortgage that's not what cults want they want beautiful people like Kelly they want beautiful people who make them look good right that make them look because you you already you know if you walk down the street Kelly as a person you already look like somebody who has everything together you know and so that's and I wanted to really really point that out that cults are not they're looking for smart people they don't want dumb people and most cults are looking for someone with some type of resource maybe intellect or they're willing to work for free or they have friends that they can recruit that they bring something to the organization and like I said people are going to recruit the same type of people right that they're used to being around and when I walked into my first class I remember I was a little skeptical you know I had the the normal amount of skepticism going in but when I looked around I saw all these people that were dressed really nice they all had degrees they are all many of them were creative people artists and actors and architects and business people so to me when I walked in there I felt really comfortable right because they were people sort of like myself and if they weren't like myself then there were some people that I aspired to be like yeah so it kind of goes both ways yeah so walk us through so what year did you join Nexium what was the first year you started with ESP yeah so I joined ESP or Nexium as a whole in the January of 2016 and I'd really hit this place where I was like okay something's got to give and my friend had talked to me about these courses probably six or eight months ago and I was in the shower one morning I'm like something I've got to make something change here I just not happy I feel like I'm missing something and I thought you know I'll call her and see what she was talking about and so when I called her she's oh yeah these classes were having a meeting like tomorrow or something I thought oh serendipity that's amazing right boom so that's when I went to my first uh introduction to the classes and were you like after the first class where you hooked right away or did it take some time for you to come back for your second dose like what got you into like really being in that hamster well and we'll talk about the scarfs and stuff and the striped path and all that yeah the sashes and all vanguard and all that so so what it got me was I took a five day course and and on day four I believe it was they gave me they gave my gave me and everyone else an EM so they had special people fly in to do these EMS and my EM was about public speaking I've always been petrified of public speaking and so they took me back to this time when I was a little girl and I was in the sixth grade and receiving my little certificate of graduation and they forgot to call my name and I'm standing on on the you know the bleachers all by myself they pass my name and I'm just standing there I'm mortified and that just really stuck with me and so when they took me back to that time and I realized okay that's what's kind of causing this and then I realized when I was able to talk to the class later about something else I didn't have that feeling anymore I thought oh my gosh this this worked and then I was hooked and from that point on I flew directly to Albany and finished up the 16 day that was starting on the sixth day kind of gave me a day break to fly and then I started up again into the full 16 day all the way through and the EM is stands for explore exploration of meaning is that correct correct and EM is an exploration of meaning and I was telling you on the phone Kelly and it seems like from and I've told you yesterday I've watched about Val and seduce now three times and you play a very heavy part in seduce the documentary seduce which I thought went into way more detail actually than the Val did of like what was really going on it was very very detail oriented as to what was actually happening behind behind the scenes but I told you on the phone that I watching the exploration of the EMS I was like I want to EM because you're right there are some tools that do but this was not Keith Ranieri's creation was it he was taking from all these other cognitive behavioral therapies correct yeah so exploration of meaning is really just sort of an offshoot of NLP which is neural linguistic programming which is really trying to find out what emotional thing is going to trigger a response right so it's kind of like Pavlov's dog in a way if you can figure out what the emotional thing is that's holding you up you can start to realize that you can break that response by realizing what it means like does it really mean what I think it means or can I give it a different meaning so it's actually a very good tool if it's used properly so the person administering it needs to have no agenda right they have to they're not leading you anywhere unfortunately in Nixium people had an agenda because they wanted you to decide what the meaning was for you based on the ideology of ESP and Nixium that's that makes sense yeah and that's a really important thing that you head on and I want to I want to I think that's so important I know like we say in yoga the teacher's job is to eventually not be needed and so I for any organization that's high control whether it's self-help religion spirituality business fitness the person that's providing the service their job is to get you to a place where you don't need them anymore but in a high controlled situation that's why it's called high controlled they want you to continually come back to them right they're in control and there that's where you have all the thought reform happening the indoctrination happening all these people are doing things that are going against their own best interest and they realize they're doing it because they think they're doing something for the higher good it's very it's a very complex situation it's and it's so manipulative and I think that's why it's so freaking important you know I was laughing when I was thinking when you were like in the shower and you're like oh it starts tomorrow I was like I would be like oh yeah that's a godwink it doesn't godwink but for the reason you didn't realize at that time because you know and I saw one thing with Sarah Edmondson that was like I was looking for purpose and I'm like well girl you kind of got your purpose like it might not look the way it might not be instantaneous but you know and I just appreciate all you guys for her speed all whistleblowers and all people from everywhere from all different organizations that come out and say this is what's happening because these behaviors from people like Keith Reneire who was the head of Nixxiom are the same across the board they play by the same playbook and that's um I know we spoke about this on the phone so for those who aren't aware Keith Reneire was kind of regarded as like this philosopher like a scientist a philosopher like he was kind of blown up to be this like larger than life messiah almost and that did happen over a course of time and he purported to be you know one of the top three problem solvers in the world he supposedly could play piano at three years old and speak other languages and he had all these special gifts apparently that I'm not that really weren't true was he intelligent absolutely he was a very intelligent manipulator and so as time went by people began to revere him more and more and the lore became bigger and bigger and so people started to believe all of these things and not question them and we called him vanguard he wanted to be called vanguard inside the centers and that um I want to point that out too guys because I think I told you yesterday on the phone it's customary and like india that the if you call your teacher guru or guruji it's the student that names the teacher that the teacher never asked to be called if you're in a situation where somebody is asking you and I know in nixxiom I heard they would say like well you know you call a judge a judge or you call but that's a very different situation it's very different a judge and a guy leading a it's very different right so when you're saying thank you vanguard you don't say thank you judge you know at the end of every opening of a classroom we had the omission statement that everyone including new students would repeat or read off because we didn't always have it memorized and at the end it was thank you vanguard did we encourage the students to do that we didn't tell them they had to but once you're in the community if you're not doing thank you vanguard people are like hmm you know so you eventually start to do that it's slow it's slow manipulation it's just really over time um just puts him in this and I laugh I don't know uh I said he acted like a messiah but I've just recently found in my research that's in the missing books of the bible that the word messiah actually actually that probably does fit Keith Runieri because it means a follicle pillar otherwise known as a penis interesting that's what messiah means really so Keith Runieri told that penis like that totally makes sense yeah oh wow and I for those who don't know he had kind of this right hand wing lady named Nancy Salisman and she herself is now so she got what was her prison sentence like four years I think it was four or five years yes she's currently serving uh her print but she was actually in a lot of ways from what from an outsider looking in she was kind of in a way the manipulated brains behind the operation because she was the one that like actually had the credentials correct right so she had I forget what credential it's called but in nlp so it was pretty far up there she's like a master of nlp and she was the one who would implement the curriculum so create the curriculum and implement it after he came up with the ideas of what it should be his ideas were coming from a place of how do I control people through the use of this curriculum if I can teach them to do x y and z then I can control them now no one knew this I'm not even sure if he totally knew that in the beginning but I know there was a part of him that was because if you look at the curriculum and break it down there are places in there that are clearly made to manipulate and control yeah and he um so you guys would go into this so people could you know people could come in and out of nexium just take the courses leave it not really get involved in the organization as a business correct most people did so about 15 000 people went through the courses or a portion of the courses and there were probably at the time I was in maybe three four hundred coaches at the time so there that that was the community the community also extended out to new students who weren't coaches who maybe would do something a different curriculum called ethos that they could do weekly sort of on the side which was the 16 day curriculum broken down weekly meeting once a week and they were part of the community but they weren't really on the inside inside if that makes sense they're like in a french they were in those countries yeah on the french and they kind of were in and out and they weren't super super committed the people like myself who were coaches we were very committed a lot of time a lot of labor a lot of effort a lot of everything and that was designed for a reason for sure of course he got you in and now we've got to keep upping the stakes we got to keep moving the goalposts we got to keep you know and I know and a lot of just narcissistic relationships in general which can be business can't I'm not talking about just romantic relationships in the beginning there's a lot of like love bombing which is part of the grooming process and you also have these breakthroughs with these actual cognitive behavioral therapies that aren't beneficial and then you get to this point where you kind of it's like a grooming process where now you're like dependent upon or you think you're dependent upon this person or this group and then you start to kind of get knocked down a little bit and you got to do things to rise back up and it just becomes a a mental just enslavement and so so you decided that you were going to make this course that you had all this benefit you decided to make that your business correct and so you you went on that path to becoming a coach and will you explain this the the scarves to everybody that you guys wore what that meant yes so once we became a well when you're a student you wear a white what's called a white sash and as a student you can earn up to four red stripes and then you're eligible to become a coach so a red a red stripe might be taking the curriculum a second one is recruiting people like two people and I forget what the third and fourth is and those are given to you and then you're eligible to become a coach the coach has a yellow sash and the same thing is applicable you earn your stripes up they're a little bit harder well actually much harder and then you can become a proctor and when you become and that's an orange sash and as a proctor now you can start earning money by helping teach classes and um running a center and things like that so up until the orange sash there's no money involved it's it's basically free labor and I was you know doing everything cleaning toilets the whole nine yards oh yeah so you're like you're like in colt university at that point yeah exactly I mean it was a very low level like this is just weird why am I cleaning toilets I mean I don't have an issue with cleaning toilets but I sure do seem to be cleaning a lot of them I feel like and I gotta go home and clean my own like oh my gosh you know it's it's it's funny so open up your own center where you where you live or where there was already a center around there that you work for how'd that work for you on your path so I live in Orange County which is about an hour and a half two hours from Los Angeles Los Angeles had a center that they were trying to build out actually Orange County had no center I was trying to get a center built in Orange County because I had recruited many people here who wanted to take the ethos classes and more curriculum but didn't want to drive to LA but we were all told oh you're just entitled they need to drive up to LA I'm like I'm sorry these are business people parents people who are in school they don't have time to drive to LA you know so I was trying to get to Proctor as fast as possible in order to open my own center which caused a lot of issues for a lot of people thinking that I was trying to disrupt things and but I just believed so much in this curriculum I thought it was helping people I thought it was helping myself it really was a great program on a lot on a lot of levels once I took it apart and was able to look back on it having not been in the in the organization anymore I could definitely see places where there could this a curriculum could be used as a tool to misguide people if that was your intent only if that was your intent yeah well that's we say on my channel a lot I remind people and this comes from the law of one even if we look at science you know since Keith Ranieri labeled himself a you know scientist the darkness can't create anything like even you think about photosynthesis like so when we look at darkness we look at people who are dark they they can't create anything darkness can't can't do it only thing the darkness can do is steal from the light and invert it the light that can correct or can can can create things so like when we look at lately even like if you even look like Scientology like Dianetics the reactive mind that wasn't Elron Hubbard's creation that is like a legitimate full that's a lot of yoga you know a lot of what you're talking about with Ems is spoken about in the old yoga text and that's why this is so important because I do think it is important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and you're correct like a lot of these I spoke to someone yesterday about the yoga cults a lot of these these theories if not taught by a healthy minded person an empathetic compassionate normal person can't be twisted and that's yeah and that's why it's so important to whenever you join an organization be a yoga shala or help out help self help any kind of organization you need to really look at is there power coming down from the top is there controlled power coming down is there like one charismatic leader that people revere in a that's just doesn't seem seems a little off I mean you have a cult there it's so it's like one two three I have a little thing I say cult you know charismatic leader utopian society love bombing and thought reform I mean those are the four those are only four of the many flags but I feel like those are easier to remember and they're those are pretty significant when you have those together and thought reforms a little like what is thought reform well it's like anytime anybody's trying to get you to change your belief system and they're trying pretty hard to have you do that and you're not and you're feeling okay this is a little bit much that's that's usually thought reform and I know I listened to you just said it to like anytime you would have it seems like anytime anyone would have like an issue like something isn't right if you tried to say something they would turn around you correct and be like well you're obviously titled since you don't want to spend you know two hours sitting in traffic every day which to me is hysterical because if I was a business owner I would want a business in Orange County because Orange County has a lot of money like Kelly entitled deal like that was like everyone said I was entitled all the time and it was funny because every time I would say you know something doesn't seem right and my intuition might be saying this or that and they would say well is there data in that because this was a science driven data-based curriculum so there was no room for intuition if you couldn't prove it you can't prove intuition scientifically supposedly and so they would push that in my face too so I was entitled and intuition has no place here and your Reiki practice and your homeopathy practice you know there's no data in that and you know it's not how can you say that what you're doing is is good for people and so there was always that going on for me so I was always second guessing myself and trying to find the higher value of what I was doing which was trying to become a better person so I did let some of that stuff go which you should never do that no one should ever do that. That's common with cults I find is they do turn like down they try to like gas like you about your own intuition and your own gut feeling and I know I was like in yoga we really promote your gut feeling so if you're guys watching if you're in a yoga class where they're trying to downplay your gut feeling you might be in a cult because that is not with you the yoga scripture very much about your gut you're they call your cities your intuition you know that that is that is your my friend to oh and by the way I didn't tell you this before we started filming I have a friend Tamara down in Australia she was a big reader for a lot of the celebrities she's been following this following this whole story for a very long time and I was speaking to her on the phone this morning and she was like you tell that Kelly that she has so many so many supporters down here in Australia oh that's so sweet oh my gosh that's uh thank you thank you you have you guys have a lot of support around the world of people just it again it's that it's that hero's journey it's that holy shit this was a David and Goliath story for if you guys really sit back and think about I mean for those you know the brothman sisters were backing Keith I mean I don't know how much money was behind I mean to try to take him down was really an act of God well you know Sarah Edmondson and Mark Vicente and Bonnie Peace and Catherine Ochsenberg were really instrumental in making this happen along with other people as well but they were really I mean Sarah going on on the front of the New York Times showing her brand was I mean I want I almost want to cry because I know how hard that would have been I I can't even imagine how scared she was at that time I mean now things are a little different but for her to do that was beyond brave and in my opinion and I don't care what anybody says about you know who that and you know they try to break it down and who's guilty who's not whatever but to do that against what we were up against all of us to speak out I mean they were the brave ones really well I think I think you're brave as well and I know you spoke about this with I think it was one of your interviews with Andrew Gold about and I love he was the one that said and and I've never I've told you Kelly I've always had really good teachers but I haven't been a narcissistically abusive relationship and that in itself is a cult of one so we've all been in that situation before and it is to stand up and say like yeah this happened to me I fell for this and I'm gonna I'm gonna overcome it by helping other people either recognize the red flags or or come out of that themselves like that is brave as well that is so you have to give yourself credit for that too because what you're doing is extremely brave and and I think a lot of people like my friend and Tamara the love in Australia a lot of people recognize that and in the play of what's the what's the like courage is not courage doesn't mean you don't have fear courage means you look fear in the face and you do it anyway and that's even if you're shaking you still do it and so let's talk about that because how you know if it does had never happened I've been thinking about this for a long time and you know we see this in the vow we see that there were there were already groups of people that had tried to take Keith Ranieri down in the past and it never worked I'm like God if Dawson never happened right when next year I'm still be running today but that's the thing about narcissists narcissists never know when to stop they know when that last little when that straw that's going to break the camel's back and so let's so within next year and as an outsider looking in there's all these different compartments and classes and groups there's the Genes women's group which somebody had said that was really the beginning of Dawson which you had I think so yeah I took those that curriculum in Mexico City yeah and that really looking back now that was the setup for Dawson that was the setup for the ideology to it was still misogynistic and it was all there that's was the whole control thing that whole can we talk about that a little bit before so we see how because I think people be like why the hell with these really intelligent women just all of a sudden sign up for the secret sorority where they're giving collateral and they're branding themselves it doesn't happen overnight does it no and I write about this in my book in one of the chapters when I was being recruited into this organization called Dawson it was told to me that it was called the vow and it was a secret society of women of sorority of women of kick-ass women who were going to do is amazing things in the world and I was being recruited by at that time I had many coaches during my time in ESP and next year this particular coach was recruiting me and she was sort of right above me in my line of working my way up the straight path which is a separate piece of curriculum right so I didn't really want to tell her no for a variety of reasons I didn't want to disappoint her I didn't want to be seen as not measurable or accountable and I was sort of interested right these are supposedly now I didn't know who was in this organization because it was secret but these kick-ass women like okay what are they doing now when she did say measurable and accountable I have to say I was like oh my god I hate those words I'm so tired I don't want to be any more accountable I don't want to be any more measurable but I wanted to kind of see what was going on here because but at the same time when they said she said I had to give collateral in order to know more about this organization what popped up for me immediately was oh my god my husband my family if I give any kind of collateral now they're involved and that's where I put the brakes on or at least tried to put the brakes on was at that point when the collateral came up and that's the funny thing I told you on the phone about because I've heard you say that before because that was your gut too and the one thing and that's why they try to get you to dismiss like to get rid of your gut because they want it and it is so these women are they've already been conditioned and it is the Janus curriculum from what I was hearing as an outside like oh my god this is not female empowering it was so aggressive towards women you know they say you're a little princess you're held in a bubble the I mean it was like we don't earn anything we're parasites we rely on men we trick men we do everything we can so that we don't have to work um just all kinds of things yeah it I mean it's it's it's so the mind of an abusive person mm-hmm to do that and and I mean I was horrified listening to some of I was I was when we were three we were rewatching seduce for like third time last night and um Catherine oxen bring the more you watch the documentaries the more things you pick up one because oh yeah the story is so sensational like women branded I mean it's so like shocking when it first came out for the for those of us who are not in the organization um so the first time you watch you're like holy shit you know but the second time you go back and watch it Catherine oxen bird's mother was like I thought it was weird she said something else her mom says something else too that's hilarious and I wrote it on twitter it was I forget now what it was but she was hilarious her mother oh Catherine's mother oh yeah it's so funny about the view slavia I was like this one's cracking me up I thought it was weird like she was throwing her under the she was throwing Nancy under the bus I mean that was like worth everything I think that's what I wrote something like that but she totally was just like throwing her under the bus and I was like oh my you go princess you from Yugoslavia she was like this idiot was cracking up laughing I guess we had missed it because we were so into the story he was like oh my gosh he was funny hysterical um but yes it and that and I think too and it's like and that's how grooming works so because even if somebody were to come in off the streets to just take a genetic they probably like what the fuck is this like oh for sure oh yeah and we were prepped right you have had to have taken the 16 day first then we were prepped that this first eight days of Janess was where they go over what we just talked about is going to be really triggering for you so just know it's so triggering and but you'll get through it and so you're expecting it to be triggering and when it is you're like okay it's triggering but what am I missing I need to go deeper into myself like with yoga right you things come up through your body and you want to listen to them but because we were so trained to listen to it through the lens of Nixxiom not through our own lens that we would say okay well maybe there's something in this that I'm missing and okay maybe I haven't been a big earner in my world in my life maybe my husband has been the more of the earner so okay I guess that's true you know so you can kind of justify some of these things that they were saying if you're looking through the lens of Nixxiom right now I look back and go oh my oh my god I can't believe I even thought that was any truth in that whatsoever and you have to also know this was sandwiched between other things that were useful and were truthful right so you have Janess curriculum a couple hours of it then sandwiched on top of that a different topic that is not related necessarily to what we were talking about earlier in Janess which does make sense and is helping you right does that make sense so it's not just straight stuff it's like you so it gets very confusing it and it's probably very much designed that way for a reason and I mean I'm thinking like the way because I you know my sister is a stay-at-home mom she has a college degree but she's got three children all under the age of 10 she's running them around her husband has a really good job they are they do very well financially she's very her kids are private because she's very blessed but her job having three children and one she they had a COVID baby so one's really little one that you know so she's got a toddler you know so I go to her her house is very clean but it's always like toys everywhere you know sure she's constantly so so when I hear people say that I want to smack them because I'm like all the women across the world that are working their asses off every day to keep their kids alive exactly and I raised kids myself I'm raising kids you know so I was you know there was always that question mark for me but wait a minute my contribution to this marriage and my husband's never in even once ever ever made me feel this way about not contributing but you know they're talking about and then I start thinking gosh maybe I haven't been contributing as much and where am I maybe being a little ungrateful or you know you start to question things like that and you start to think well maybe you know maybe I'm doing something wrong here but you know there were those were questions that we had and they would be shot down by like Nancy and she turned them around well have you thought about how entitled you actually are there we go again that word again and oh gosh maybe I'm a little entitled and take him for granted and whatever you know so you get into this mindset that sounds crazy now but then it just felt like okay I'm working on myself and I'm trying really hard so that's how this happens it's just a constant level over level over level and then people who that you at the time respect and believe in are telling you other things and you know Nancy Salzburg did some really great things for me yeah and she helped me with some really a lot of things I was actually struggling with so I really do give her credit for that on some level but she also did some kind of crap you know a lot of not so good things and she probably was the ultimate I mean she stuck around with Keith Ranieri for the longest from the end yeah we'll talk because I do want to talk about that when we talk about there about the line between victim and abuser and where that gets kind of gray and murky and all that kind of stuff um but with Dawes so I'm trying to like I just want to express to the audience like no normal person would just wake up one day and go you know what I'm going to do I'm going to join a sex cult and I'm going to get branded with some guys initials with no anesthetics I'm going to get collateral and this is going to be really fun and I'm going yeah I'm having calories a day and this is just going to be great like this is my whole life nobody no little girl goes to bed at night dreaming about that's what she's going to be when she grows up you know and so that's what's crazy to me here I am I'm looking at like my brother-in-law my niece my oldest niece who's eight her daddy is her best friend I mean she told my brother-in-law all the boys she has crushes on who she wants to I mean she love I would never tell my dad that but and I he treats his daughters I mean he's strict on them but he also treats them like princesses he pays attention to them he plays with them and so if you look at the sick mind of Keith Ranieri when you look at what happened at Dawes he was demeaning you guys and demeaning you guys you guys prepping you to go into this horrific like the more I watched after when I started to repeatedly watch it I would get so emotional when they would get to that part especially in the vow because the more you listen to what people are saying and putting yourself in that situation and the amount of I mean I'm shocked that nobody we can't say the s-word on YouTube but that nobody removed themselves from the earth plane if that's you know if you guys know what I'm saying because that's where I probably would have gone in my head if I was in that situation because you're invited to join this like top secret badass women you can't tell you can't even tell your husband sorority they ask you for collateral in the beginning I think people thought oh like take a picture of boobs that's it but then they're asking for like what deeds for houses uh every every week or every month I believe I found out later that they were asking for clat more and more collateral so the collateral just went up in value each time and people were got to the point and this would be something I would have to do where they're just making shit up because my life has been fun but it has not been that scandalous so there's not a whole lot of they ask you to make it up that's what they asked me to do we'll just make something up make something up about your business that you are that you're a fake in a fraud and you're defrauding people just do a video of that Kelly that that'll work yeah that's what they were asking you to do because you didn't have any big scandalous thing most of the collateral if it was verbal or written was made up so yeah I mean and and what they would say so if you're like I'm not comfortable with this say like oh so like your words that well if you're if you're good to your word you won't have to they would twist it right you're not being very measurable accountable don't you want to grow Kelly I mean the only way to grow is to do this and you need to give collateral so we can keep it a secret so then I can tell you more and we need you to be you know faithful to us and and everything else so there was like this whole thing and I like I said I put the brakes on and just sort of avoided this person for a couple of weeks because I didn't want to say yes and I didn't want to say no so I was in that kind of really funky place couldn't talk to my husband about it felt very uncomfortable with the collateral and fortunately everything blew up around that time I was like a god save because everything it was like right to save and I actually want to get into that with you too but but so people's people's okay so people hand over their collateral and now so what does DOS actually stand for shoot I usually write it down but it's something it's uh it's it's latin it's latin and uh I think it's in my book somewhere but uh it stands for slave master over obedient servant something like that so I wanted master yeah it's a master slave and it's it's like this exercise like it's not really master slave it's an it's an exercise right yeah but so you get in a situation where you have your slave master who's a woman who's texting you all the time to to do like what are the readiness drills like what was that about what was so readiness drills were basically and I actually never did these because I was struggling just to like get through the days of nixxiom because I was so overworked but the readiness drills were you would have to respond to a group or in in this set with DOS your slave master within 15 to 35 seconds or something like that and if you didn't respond night or day then you would get a punishment which you'd have to you know do 100 push-ups or whatever you decided that your penance was going to be so when you look at readiness drills I believe you know militaries around the world have used types of things like this and if you didn't respond to your readiness drill they would come after you get you think there was something wrong but it was also a way to control people and indoctrinate people into the system of being ready all the time I mean if you're if your job is to protect the people in the military for a time of the war I can understand that that's your job yeah I would fail right then and there because it takes me forever to respond to text message sometimes because my phone's on all right time you know and I'm like but you'd have to have it you'd have to have it with you all the time and if you wanted an airplane you'd have to let everyone know I'm going to be on an airplane for x amount of time you would have to be leave it on all night you have to respond to in the middle of the night whatever it was and if one of your team members did not respond it could be that the penance would be everyone else in the team would have to do whatever that penance was so yeah it was really crazy turns people against each other it's it's it's very much a walking on eggshell situation which I think absolutely bag like you should not feel like if you feel like you have to walk on eggshells within a group or with a person and that's a problem because stuff like that like that's just to be a normal human being you should not expect it to return text message what that just should not have like you should have understanding that people have lives they have children they have husbands they have jobs they're driving they can't respond right away and I think I think that you know so so that's control it was control but one other thing I wanted to bring up really quick about the Latin which excuse me um is so interesting so if you take the word nexum n e n e x u m in latin it means some it's indentured slave now if you take nixium to just so you take n x i v m you take out the x you put in so n so then you put in you take out the um e you put in an x you put i v m and v and you are interchangeable in latin anyway you just moving around a one letter basically moving it over you have nixium it's in plain sight and not a lot of people know that yeah look up next them any x u m anywhere on the internet and it'll come up with indentured servants or slave and nixium is very close to that you just she just put in an x took out the e and the u and the v here um are interchangeable in latin this is why I tell people to always do their research because yeah I mean but but as is a normal healthy people are like oh cool name like whatever do you like everyone's no one wants to hurt me like this is a self-help right exactly but it's literally yeah it's right there in plain it's plain sight and I would never have looked that up until I think I read that somewhere like in the frank report or something and I had to go look it up and I'm like oh my god it's so close I'm sure that's what he was doing I that's what I was telling you last night we as even watching this over and over again my boyfriend looked at me he was like you totally would have thought you would have done this he was like you he said the only thing that saved you was geography there was no one around you I would have I would have absolutely and I take I as a yoga student I take a lot for my in my but you're correct my teacher my teacher in India shows me what to do as far as like the posture but as far as the emotions that come up that's an individual experience if you're crying sometimes I'd be like why fearing like why fearing like why are you afraid and but he never answers that question for you it's it's your personal journey and that's and that's that's the difference is that there was there's nobody at my shawl in India no one's guiding you as to how they're just acknowledging that something that no as I told you in a yoga shawl like if you have a moment we're emotional usually the teacher will just leave you they won't draw attention to it and they just kind of let you have your moment and there's no drawing attention to it there's no why are you doing this well let's there's no talking about it it's just right you you and I think a healthy person will realize that other human beings have the right to have their own experience and have their own objective or subjective understanding of their experience because everybody's life is life path is different and so you know that's one thing I think ems are good because yeah that that kind of comes from the yoga idea too that we do attach certain thoughts to actions and the action itself is not the thought yeah that's very much true in yoga as well but yoga takes the path of but you're a spiritual being and that's what you need to understand is that you know yoga the yoga sutra says is that human suffering comes from this idea that we're attached to our thoughts and we think that our body is is what's real when it's not because it's but if this isn't real then what is real your soul exactly your spirit that's what's real and that's what's eternal and once you realize that you can enjoy your life because this too shall always pass and you are perfect fractal of God that just your soul chose to know itself by coming and having a human experience the body is the Shakti is the expression of the soul it's not the soul but it seems like with nexium it was almost twisting that saying well we don't have dotted approved that there is a soul so let's work with the from Keith Raniera he was manipulating the mind which is mind is the mind is manipulatable you know absolutely the soul isn't but the mind is um and so so with the branding they so they would lure the women to Albany which is hysterical to me that that was their headquarters and they were trying to get everyone to move there I was like you could have picked a better place and maybe more so bad Albany I'm sorry yeah like Miami Hawaii somewhere great yeah maybe you picked a better place like you you're going more successful um so they got and they they all lived in like this little like this little neighborhood right like almost yeah it's called yeah knots woods and it was sort of this neighborhood of condominiums that they all seem to have purchased uh at different times that were sort of very close to each other and so they kind of were creating this this group of people that were living there wasn't a compound it was just they lived in close proximity but and the center was probably 20 minutes away from there in a industrial park area so uh yeah Albany they would get people to move there to be part of the community and then uh they would get you know people thought well if I live in Albany I'll be closer to the curriculum closer to the center closer to what's going on so many people did move there and many people actually was so interesting to me when I was going through the 16th day there was a a gal I'm not going to use her name because you know she's rebuilding her life but she was actually recruited through DOS into Nixie into ESP that that was just blew my mind and it made sense to me once I went back and revisited that for 16 day and and how she literally was this is so crazy she was shrinking during that 16 day period and then I saw her again at a coaches summit maybe two months later and she had lost like 30 pounds I I didn't know what was going on but I wanted to I want to talk about that too but yeah and that's the thing guys like once you give collateral you're theirs like you you belong to them and that's coercive that's kind of like at that point there's no free will involved that's coercive control and they get these women and they brand them and they they told them that it was what the elements of nature but it was like Keith Ranieri's initials initials originally a lot of women were told that it was the four uh elements yes or some some of them were told that it was going to be a tattoo yeah uh so there are other yeah there's a lot of different I got tattoos there's nothing I about brand I mean they talk about we talked about this on the phone last night a couple of them have mentioned in interviews about the smell of human flesh just um and and Sarah Edmondson spoke about this and she basically disassociated um yeah I thought was her being brave and strong was actually her disassociating and Catherine Oxford had done some studies at that that is typical they'll do something so traumatic to get you to disassociate this is like clockwork orange if you guys remember that it's it's it's part of mind control is getting you to disassociate and I mean it took third I mean time is relative but 30 minutes with you know she was using a cauterizing a cauterizing pen right a cauterizing pen with no anesthesia this was a doctor that was doing this and had never you know I think she did some practice sessions on somebody else somewhere I don't know that's what I heard but can you even imagine being held down changing your mind your butt out held down naked and then changing their minds what's that your butt ass naked by the way I think yeah they had your clothes on at the house they've been they've been transported naked I I still don't know what I would do many people ask me if that had happened to you what would you do I still don't know but I think I would have run out naked I don't know for sure but I probably would have definitely been tempted to do that because I'm so frightened of pain yeah I really am but once you're on the table I don't think you you didn't hold you down well and there are people begging I a little off-subject but I used to go and get cryotherapy which is you put yourself in there and you take your clothes like you and you hand that I would go and a girl would take a girl and a guy would take a guy so if you you know but I would throw the robe over and stand there what when the girl's working there told me that when she got the job they made her do a session so she would experience so she could to help the clients and she said they turned the they turned their refrigerator on and then do you can push the door open she busts the door open now you're in a room by yourself with another person so other girls but she said she took it she just ran oh yeah ran outside in the middle of Atlanta door just booms out like that just sounds awful the cold sounds terrible and so does branding they both sound bad I'll cry with therapy any day over over I practiced for a whole week with a broken sacrum once my boyfriend was like you have you would have done that you would have been like yeah I could do this I'm tough this is me proving something to myself he was like so these women and they're the ones who have been interviewed are tough smart women you know and you know you want to you know I would have been do I let these people down do I prove that I'm you know strong enough and I will admit this had I been branded and went through that whole thing thank god I didn't but had it happened my first reaction would be I am bad ass man I just made it through this I did it I just don't trust that I would have been able to do it but but if I had I would have come out of there saying oh my god now later I would have thought what the hell did I do but at the time you just you adrenaline you have mastered you've gotten through something that most people would never be able to do and you're being told that too at the same time like you're you're doing this amazing thing that anybody could just do this you're so measurable now you know you're just you're bad ass all of that so I don't understand how they I guess Keith Ranieri didn't think this all the way through that this was supposed to be a group that was secret from you even your husband and some of these women were married so it's not like your husband's not going to see you naked so I don't know if he I mean this is this is why I say this was his undoing because you you there was no way I mean most a lot of the women were actually it's so strange to me like how because I don't need to be rude I really but Keith Ranieri to me is so freaking disgusting as a person like he's not attractive to me now with that being said if he was a really great guy who wasn't a sociopath then maybe he would be but to me he's just like he's not yeah yeah but he I heard someone say he had to form a cult to have sex otherwise he would have probably so um but he basically had the inner circle of women he it's like it was like a rotating circle they were all like sleeping with him yes they're eight and they had to manage monogamous sleep to him but he was polyamorous it's and then if they had jealousy issues it was their issue correct like it was correct so he he would take them separately not all of them knew the extent most probably of who he was sleeping with but they all kind of knew on some level and he would use them against he would put them against each other so imagine he had eight first line slaves right and each of those slaves were to recruit I believe seven more or eight more I can't remember seven or eight more slaves right that make your second line of slaves and each of those slaves who had a pot of slaves those slaves were to report to them and do the acts of kindness for them so basically can you go run my errands can you clean my house whatever so they they had to do that and each of those slaves were to recruit another line of slaves which I would have been imagine me like you know when they got to me they were at the grape in the bottom of the barrel I mean their Keith wasn't attracted to someone like me he wanted someone very young so he did ask to sleep with some of the younger girls in the second line and possibly the third line but he I realized after the fact when they were recruiting me they had no idea what they were doing none like they were not recruiting someone who was going to be immeasurable and accountable to this thing I don't have that in me yeah not like some other people do maybe in the first line or whatever so to recruit someone like me would have just it you knew they had there was no rhyme or reason to it at that point it was just a numbers game nobody was paying attention nobody was thinking about the consequences and that's when it blew up not because of me but because of everybody was desperate about a control yeah it was so he would see this like he literally I mean I consider what he did to be kind of to be rape in a lot of ways because like the the the master so from what I what what I saw as a viewer is that Keith Ranieri would be like hey Allison Mack and for you guys who don't Allison Mack was like one of the big celebrities in Nexium um I remember watching Smallville when it was out hey Allison Mack I want to sleep with this you know you know young girl have her task be to seduce me yeah you have this collateral hanging over your head so these young women who are in their 20s are having to go seduce this gross disgusting man it or their collateral I mean it's so just screwed up it's so screwed up and let I want to talk about that too about the weight the the weight issue because I said you on the phone and the vow Mark Vicente makes a statement he says they look like zombies but I said no he's making them look like children yeah what was their calorie intake daily I believe it was between five and eight hundred calories a day and the reason I I know this is because I was in Janess at the time a few months before this all blew up I was in with a bunch of the DOS gals I didn't know they were in DOS obviously and with Allison Mack and I was with all those guys down in Mexico in Mexico City and they were all measuring the amount of food they're eating and the palm of their hand and they were taking pictures and I asked a couple of them because we spent a lot of time together so why are you taking pictures oh I'm just doing this thing to be more you know accountable to what I'm eating so I want to make sure that I'm sending it to my friend who's helping me out with this you know I'm sending it to Allison I'm sending it to whoever and I thought gosh you know that's kind of weird because I was starving all the time right and they fed you these vegetarian meals which is which is great but it just felt like I was never getting enough food um yeah the whole thing was sort of calorie restricted overall I mean they weren't saying you couldn't eat they were just saying if you want to be a better badass person and really be accountable and measurable you might want to think about how much food do we really need to eat do you want to try that as a way Kelly to you know grow yourself or whatever no maybe not today but I mean it's not to say I would not have done it later on but at that time weight was a for me wasn't an issue and I was working on other things so and that's what I actually looked up before we came on I actually struggled to to get I have I have a problem with I get really skinny so I forget to eat a lot I'm very the DOSHA system of our very Vata and so I count my calories to make sure I'm eating enough and I I'll make sure between 2000 and 2500 calories a day that's what I try to do to maintain my health and so I want to put that into perspective I looked up I was just curious because I had heard you say this so I wanted you to tell the audience I looked up to see I asked I was like okay so if you were to do nothing all day just lay around do nothing how many calories does the average person burn just to be alive and do nothing the average person just to be alive this is not walking to work working out living doing things burns 1400 calories just to maintain life yeah so you have these women and I think it was seduced is it seduced when they talk about like one woman lost her period for like 10 years yeah you definitely will lose your period if you're not eating enough if you don't have enough body fat for sure yeah I mean there was a shot of Alison Mack on one of the documentaries and even my boyfriend was like oh my god she looks like it's she looks like she's about to die like when I saw her in Mexico which was the last time I physically saw her believe um which was a couple months before it all blew up she was like childlike like her body had become she was so tiny because I had had lunch with her and of course she was eating like celery and like she used to like to grind up like squash and stuff make it into spaghetti spaghetti squash and eat that and and I just remember thinking oh my gosh the thing she's so tiny like she's just like almost like a child was so sad it's it's so sick because if you guys watched the documentaries are looking to Keith and Aries past there's some questionable things he's done to underage girls yes that's how I'll say it and I know that he there's there's clips of him talking about where he tried to manipulate basically child abuse when it comes to Israel I will say relationships because of youtube but he definitely had a problem with this and um and so it's like he was taking these young girls and making them look like children which is disgusting but on the other hand he was promising these women children so these are women who wanted to be moms it's the my heart just breaks for for like Lauren salt for some of these women I hope that they find healing I hope Allison Mack finds healing I hope that they can undo in their mind because no human life no human deserves this none and let's let's uh so we know with cults they sometimes will restrict what you eat um I was telling you on the phone last night my teacher in India always thinks we're all too skinny all the time it's great you know what go to India that I'll tell you're really skinny it's fantastic so in India it's years considered sexy to have like a bit of a belly and so I know a lot of women who are like tell me again tell me again you know it's healthy to have yeah to have if for women I know 25% body fat is like the lowest a woman should go because our bodies are have a womb it's it's different man go to like 10% body fat but a woman you know you you have a woman's body is a portal you know that's important a woman's body is actually a portal you know it needs that support and we know that they also do sleep deprivation we're talking about how hard they would work you a course that has to do with a cognitive when you don't have enough sleep your mind kind of gets loopy and you're very susceptible at that time so we see all this happening and so basically what really blew it up was well first of all Bonnie's her gut got really big right so she pulled away big time and her husband yeah Bonnie was my coach at that point in March of 2017 she was my coach and she dropped out she kind of tried to tell me on the phone what was going on but she couldn't really say anything because she was scared she didn't know if they were going to come after her they didn't she didn't know what was going to happen so I was sort of like this is weird conversation I'm trying to read between the lines but I absolutely could not and so she she figured it out I don't know if she knew the extent of everything I don't think she knew about the branding necessarily but she figured out something was really wrong and she left and so you know she was very much into intuition and listening to her own gut and she did thankfully and she's married to a man named Mark Vicente a lot of people know from what the bleep do we know that got big and they like honed in on him right after that documentary got big and I know that I see they try obviously they try to wedge between husbands and wives I mean the whole DOS thing you can't tell your husband like hello you know your husband is supposed to be a person you would tell everyone you know like I share everything with my boyfriend like I would want to oh my god guess what like I want to tell him everything um so you already already see them trying to wedge in between um relationships like that but it's amazing because Mark Vicente who was so heavily involved in Nexium and was Keith Ranieri's like best male friend um ended up taking his good on him he took his wife's side and pulled away I think that you know nobody really had all the information on everything right everybody had bits and pieces when Bonnie left you know she she was very clear on herself and why she was leaving you know Mark probably didn't have all the information and didn't really know and so I think there that was probably a very difficult thing for both of them but at the end of the day when he saw some more evidence probably of what Bonnie was talking about or what have you I wasn't there for the for the conversation so I don't really know but then he started to see for himself there were really actually things going on here he started putting two and two together and fortunately he got out and was able to get out in time where he could start recording some of these things to prove that these things were happening so again very brave they were both you know is a tough situation yeah and then Sarah Edmondson was like his best friend and he started telling her not knowing that she had lost and that she had been branded and she eventually told him and then that's when he you know I think all the lights came on at that point and then it was much easier to put information together and then to make a real you know the decision to get out and help other people get out and expose this whole thing which you know at that time not knowing you know is Claire Bronfman is Keith are they gonna come after us are they gonna sue us are they gonna I mean still there's just so much money to use to do that no for the collateral I mean was it you that said they still don't they don't even know where the collateral is still as far as I know they don't know where the collateral is they I'm sure somebody knows where it is I just you know I think you know Sarah had a lot of collateral on her that still and India many people had collateral that could be out there somewhere it hasn't been to my knowledge hasn't been exposed and may never be hopefully maybe the FBI has it I don't know it's um and so Sarah they got a nippy her husband I just realized rewatching that he's an Atlanta boy he's from my hometown I was like oh yeah he looks like an Atlanta boy so and and he the you see the anger in him and I can imagine for men I mean we talk about all the women's stuff women's stuff but men have you know men do have a lot of men do have that where they want to protect they want to be they want to protect their family to feel that the one he's like you breaded my fucking wife like right yeah wife you know and and she was extremely brave to do that the New York Times picked it up and it got to the point where it the story could not be ignored at that point because it was just so sensational and so uh Moira pinza was that her name really I like her and this is what I like and she said this I don't know if it was a podcast where she was like this chaps my ass like he taught the victims but now he's the ultimate victim yeah and here's this like woman who's beautiful smart young and she took his ass down and you are there so he got a physically fled the United States to Mexico yeah he got arrested in Mexico and since then he has not been he's he never he did not make bail did he they kept him no they extradited him through Texas then to MDC in New York and he's been there was there until after the trial and I believe he's in Arizona now I'm not exactly sure security prison which I'm like and she used to come into court more uh pinza would come into court wearing you know gorgeous you know skirt suit and heels and very feminine and she would just walk in there and I remember I was there for a few days of the trial when Laura Lauren Salisman was testifying and I was uh that's when we were filming with seduced and they were kind enough to take me with them so I could actually see what was going on the court which was so amazing for me because it really brought everything home for me to see this happening realize oh my god this is really happening and it's really true but she would come in and her heels and her amazing outfits and just kick ass in court it was just so fun to see watch her in action she was amazing it's like really passionate about just absolutely to have a level of understanding of what he had done to these women and so let's let's look at you so you were asked to join DOS you were asked for the collateral I know you said some I remember you saying an interview some stuff came out that was like you felt go us back like was it a frank report where you were like oh this sounds weird but then you saw the collateral you're like oh so yeah so in that in that time frame where I was sort of not answering the phone very much and trying to avoid the conversation around joining DOS or the vows that was explained to me uh uh someone called me from Canada and they said on what staff and they said have you seen the frank have you seen the frank report and I said what are you talking about nobody reads a frank report and said I gotta send you this link but don't tell anyone I sent it to you because they'll come after me and she hung up and I thought oh my gosh so of course I clicked the link and I'm reading the uh blog post that talks about these branded sex slaves and I'm thinking oh my gosh what are they talking about this is all baloney you know this they're trying to take nixie them down whatever and then I read a little bit more and they said asking these women for collateral and as soon as I saw that word I I was like oh my gosh so I called this person and I said is this what you were trying to get me to join and she said yes and I don't remember exactly what happened after that I might have hung up on her I don't know what I did I was so shocked but I was just sitting there and this wave came through me from the right side to the left all the way through my body and then back and it said Keith is evil and I still get chills because it just left my body and then I thought I just had this weird how could that be Keith can't be evil he couldn't be behind this he's the guy that's created this curriculum and he's the guy that's helping everybody how could I have that thought like Keith and it was like somebody said to me Keith is evil and then it's because no one at that point at this point really knew Keith was behind it yeah they were suspecting now but not this was a girl's thing by themselves all driven by Alison Mack and Lauren Salisman and these women this is their idea and but the voice came through and told me you know wake up now that's God that's your guide that's your protect and I just I when I think about your story Kelly I'm like oh my god you just you it just came right in and it was like no she's not going down this road because then all of a sudden when did the New York Times article come out and into so you got the frank report at what point did the New York Times article then come out I want to say that came out probably in October of that year so we're talking May of 2017 is when frank report blew it open and I think it was October you got to look on the internet but it was something like October ish so it was a few months later because I ended up actually teaching coaching another session in Albany right after this happens because I still like I said yes Keith is evil but I still didn't believe it I still didn't have any information on this nobody was talking about it everybody was hush hush about it so I had already signed up to teach or to coach an intensive so I ended up going but while I was in Albany things were just flying everywhere people were leaving like crazy Nancy oh it's just a nightmare I spent a lot of time with Nancy there and then I left and went away with my family went on a long trip and during that time I had time to think and eat and rest and kind of not talk to anybody and I was out on a paddle board one day you were in Croatia and it just like Donna me oh my god you're in a cult you you I think you're in a cult and it was sort of from there I started really looking into it and getting out and all that but it was just really one of those moments where you're quite long enough to realize what the heck has happened to you and that's why they don't that's why I hope high control groups don't want you leaving yeah exactly or eating properly sleeping properly and drinking properly you told a story about a girl who went to sell her computer and yes that one put bat a cake brought her clarity back what was that was he in DOS so my understanding that she was in DOS and she hadn't been branded yet I don't know that all the specifics on this one but she would needed money for something within the organization probably to buy more curriculum or something and so she wanted to go sell her computer so she went to a cafe to sell her computer to some random person on you know Craigslist or something and this person bought her a piece of cake and she wasn't allowed to eat cake this is on the starvation calorie restriction diet but she said what the heck I'll eat it anyway and she ate the cake and it gave her enough glucose in her brain to realize what the heck am I doing selling them my last possession my computer yeah to make a couple hundred dollars to do whatever and it that's when she got out and she left I mean it's amazing how I mean this it's so interesting you know in yoga we talk a lot about friction and I talk a lot about friction here on my channel and you know we're on a plan of polarity so with polarity there's opposing forces which creates friction and even practice we're generating friction which turns into sweat and I tell my students all the time or the viewers too like you look at a match it matches everything it needs to light but it can't light unless it's brushed up against the map creates the friction and I'm looking to guys and your stories and I just think oh my god like you were given this monument as friction but though the bigger the friction the bigger the light can shine like how God universe source almost used you guys to expose to shine a light on something that is so evil like Keith Reneire and out of everybody in this story he's the one that's evil everybody else were victims that turned into abusers you know he was the puppet master and how amazing it is that you guys have been able I always say the more my heart breaks the more the light can shine through you know like the more we break the more the light can actually shine through and how unbelievably and I know I mean I listen I know Malik the narcissist I've never been up against a malignant narcissist that was as powerful as Keith Reneire but the ones I have dealt with it's scary because they have the boundaries that a normal human has they don't have the empathy the compassion it is no all they really have is rage and anger if you don't treat the way they want to be treated and so it's it's a lot I hope people really understand like how much that took it took for you to write your book it took for the New York I mean it's it's it really you guys were an army that you were davids that took down a goliath and I know Claire Bronfman she's what eight years I think like seven yeah seven and a half or something like that she I think she's getting it shortened a bit has she denounced him because I know a lot of other people have no she's still not denounced him no and that's so you're you're never I mean that's a problem me listen like the problem sisters could do whatever they wanted in life they could have bought their own country and live there by themselves like you know like I know I know this happened to them yeah and I don't know what she's gonna do when she gets out I don't know where she's gonna be on the spectrum of all of this I mean there's still people there are very much supporters of Nixxiom as you know and Keith Ranieri and it and it's very sad for them for me to understand and watch that these people that I love and care about cannot see the bad stuff that he did even though he did some good things and one of the things that is so important for people to understand I think or at least for me is that bad people can do good things so don't you know don't be taken by surprise and we always think that good people do good things and sometimes good people can do bad things but we never really think about these bad people do good things because these good things sort of cover up that they're bad people because it takes you by surprise you don't expect it no I think Nancy Salisman kind of says like what like what she said something like oh like when you see her having her realization she's like he create all this good just so he can do bad and that's very confusing yeah it was somebody watching from the outside who's seeing like decades in the making in like a you know a few hour window yeah you're like you see it but but for somebody who has been in the inside and you know I know a lot of people have a question mark over and Nancy Salisman and I you know as an outsider watching watching you can tell she was just very mentally abused and she became a massive abuser in the process and I don't envy her healing process to have to go back and untangle all those tangled webs um I I believe if Nance from what I saw I don't know her if she had not ever met Keith or nary she probably would be a very successful healthy person doing good in the world probably I think so I mean that's my belief that that would be the case and I think it's so hard to define where the victim perpetrator line is right and and I think with the judge and the sentencing he really spent a lot of time trying to figure that out and I think for the audiences too people around the world looking at everyone in this situation other than Keith it has to be try to have some compassion for being a human being who can make mistakes and continue to make mistakes sometimes even when you know you're making them because you've been abused and you are indoctrinated into into something you don't even understand and so for me I try really hard really hard since I know these people not to put so much judgment on them and just try to understand you know I don't really know where that line is that's not my place but always to have an open heart for them to maybe see the truth at some point you know that hopefully is Lauren Lawrence for somebody's Lauren Salisman like I have I have a hard time and maybe it's because she didn't speak on camera and so there's still kind of a mystery but listening to the phone I was telling you on the phone there's a recording of her and Sarah and she was Sarah's master and also her best friend so we were talking about your a girlfriend that you trust with your life you know with your kids and she had given her collateral to to Lauren and when Sarah was starting to wake up they were having this and is recorded and Lauren was saying the typical cult stuff to her the culty stuff to her but at what there's this moment I know people talk about you have your cult personality every real personality and there's this moment the conversation where it's a split second I don't think I noticed it the first time it was like the second or third time yeah where you hear Lauren's voice kind of switch and she goes okay Sarah I'll get rid of your collateral like all of a sudden she went from being the cult member to being Sarah's best friend and in that moment my heart just broke and then seeing when when they find out that Lauren Salisman did not get any prison time she was the one that did not get any prison there was time served she just on probation and to see Sarah break down and cry yeah because you know Lauren is not a bad person no yeah in my experience with her she is not a bad person ever she did some bad things but she you know underlying all of us was this thing that we knew looked weird to the outside world right we knew being inside that we outside looking in looked kind of weird and that would come up very often I think in that conversation that came up for Lauren for a moment where she went okay this is this is messed up and this isn't right to do this to my friend to you know the collateral and then of course I'm sure she went right back into the her indoctrinated self questioning oh my gosh I'm not doing the right thing I'm not being measurable but but that's her humanness right that's coming through and that's why I just you know it's really hard having been inside understanding who these people are and understand that people on the outside don't really can't see all of that and understand that these are people like you and me that got into a situation that was way over their head did not know how to get out without losing everything I mean losing their whole community sometimes families everything didn't know how to extricate themselves and and then ended up doing some bad things and and that that is such a hard a hard thing and it's still keeps me up at night they did bad things to survive I really believe they were trying your your rikes I know they practice shunning and it's not there is no there's no black and white when it comes with Keith Ranieri there's definitely he's yeah I don't think that anybody will argue that he is probably one of the most somebody was saying is one of the most horrific cult leaders to ever live awful he's just awful and and like I mean I just want to kick him in the balls like I just I just he's disgusting and I just I I don't know if these ladies scour you too but um I hope that these the Lauren Salismids and I guess that she's the one that really got me like I hope she understands that she's still young she's still got in the world I think a lot of people in the world I know you get your assholes absolutely you get your trolls but yeah I think a lot of women especially can can see the gray there and and her life so yeah and I I make seem like but she's so beautiful they're all be everybody and I mean that's I mean next to him could have been like a a panty Provee commercial like it's it's beautiful like it's I mean like we'll say that about Keith Ranieri he had good taste in women it is you know it's kind of weird when you look at it that way and you but you realize like I said you know you've got people recruiting people that are like themselves and that's how that sort of propagated I suppose and um it was like we all just when we would get together for like Veewee could things like that you're with this community of people who are on their best behavior right because everybody everybody's trying to be their best person and so you know you're having this amazing time this like almost like a utopian society that when I look back on I'm like it wasn't even real but was part of it real we all wanted it to be real we all wanted to have that human exchange with each other that was a little bit higher than the normal exchange you know where we were caring about each other and loving each other and and in doing all these things that were just really fun and so that's me you know you look back and you're like how much of that was real so do you throw the baby out with the bathwater and so now I've come to a place where you just you take the good pieces with you and well I I would say the rest go I think it is because the memories you have with probably I mean I don't know you're the only person from nexium I know um but from what I see and perceive from everybody you had those experiences with were real humans so I don't I think it was real I think the love was real and I heard someone say once like you know first couple the beginning of a cult is always fun you know yeah stick around and I think that you you were all seekers and you were all people trying to be the best version of yourself and taking ability for your to try to be better and so I think it remove Keith from the situation I think it was real I think that that I mean I wasn't there but just as an outsider looking in yeah I see friends I see friends really care about each other and when you're like-minded like-minded people on trying to make the world a better place and be kind to each other and so there was a safety feeling in this right you're in this community that feels really safe and you trust people and you know you think you're doing something good you don't I don't you don't wake up in the morning go oh I think I'll join a cult today you know you you join a community you join a movement you know an ideology you're joining something not a cult so yeah no it's and I hope and I think people are starting to understand that more and more and more it's more and that's why your job and everybody's job your your part this is part of your what we'd say yoga part of your dharma this is and that's powerful this is not your karma this is your dharma you came to earth to expose this and from a very spiritual perspective which Keith Ranieri is probably not going to want to hear but your soul because he I don't think he likes that because do you think he read my book I think what are that with like narcissists are they like it's healing googly eye who's talking about me today you know oh yeah I think that you guys all of you went on a mission together your souls knew each other and I know that sounds very very spiritual this channel we get into the the woo-woo but you know like your souls said we're going to do this together and we're going we're going to stop this man from hurting other people yeah so yeah I can take this I'm bragging to Sarah Edmondson you know Lauren souls and your soul was like you know what we're old souls we've been through hell and back in multiple lives we can take on this piece of shit so other people don't have to and so and that's and that's real and that's the bravery the courage all of that is real it's all real and so I would not you know take the good leave the bad and and I know you've got you've got a killer book now and you're able to use your wisdom through that friction came wisdom and and that wisdom is only granted through experience and um and you're helping people know not not don't what they don't not to look like even yet even at a yoga studio like everything can be twisted and your teacher should not be telling you what to eat should not be telling you what to eat when our students come to us about nutritional stuff we back away we say you know you can look at the dosha system but you need to go see an aggravated doctor for that like go to nutrition that's not our place I know with therapy we and and our shallow if a student is having a really hard time with something we have a stack of therapist yeah good great that's responsible yeah I've been through trauma therapy my boyfriend's been through like yoga is great but have you tried talk therapy like that's really yeah really and so you know if you're in a situation where people are not letting you reach for outside sources you know you can have friends outside of the if you're in the yoga world you're allowed to have friends outside of the yoga world you know you're you have to understand that you're what you experience in life is just it's not your life it's just your life there's no one person or one thing out there that has the answer for you and that's just a really important thing to remember we're always trying to find the answer through another person they have the answer they've got the information but they may have pieces of the information for you or clues but at the end of the day it always comes back around to you you have all the answers and that is you know in your connection to your god which comes back around to the relationship with yourself and that's where all the answers are you may not be able to find them right away in the moment but they're here right here and that's the biggest thing I learned in my experience with the cult because I was looking for that answer and I got myself in a whole lot of trouble and when I came out I was so worried about any organization even talking to people because I didn't I didn't trust myself anymore and so took a couple years to build that trust back with myself but I also realized every time I wanted to reach out for an answer or join a club or for an organization or whatever it's like whoa and so I look at it through the lens of a cult using that what we talked about earlier that c-u-l-t you know it does have a charismatic leader as a utopian society all of that and even my first experience in an um astanga shala yesterday um which kicked my butt to no end and I was an absolute train wreck in the middle of the class um I was always looking around and listening to the teacher running it through my filter is this good is this are there signs here are there flags here and that's just me maybe being a little over normal but you need to be that as a human being in any situation looking for those things because if they're there if it looks like a duck and acts like a duck guess what it is a duck yeah and that's so healthy and I'm going to say that too because even in the even though my teacher in in India the palm guru is he's very boundary oriented we don't go to his house we don't socialize them with any he's very strict with boundaries and I was telling you we get up at Brahma morta for early morning practice but he's very concerned that we're like he really wants to make sure we're getting enough sleep which is yeah and he's not a cult leader he's really you know are you are you getting enough sleep you know and you know we're very strict with that with our students where we have we don't we don't you know we don't tolerate don't lionize a teacher a teacher is just a like we're still I had a the yoga guy on yesterday and it's like we're human beings we're fallible too you know the only thing that makes me a teacher is I've just done this for like 17 years so I can help you not make a mistake like hurt yourself you know our guru would say like and that's the thing too guys as I said you if a teacher's having you call them a guru or a yogi or vanguard or master or anything red flag run flag run um that's not you know it's it's um and our Guruji though we would call Guruji he would say one time telling two time telling three time god telling there's a point where the teacher has to back away and let the and that and so I had a really good influences from that like you your job is not to control your job is to teach the practice and then back away and let them live their life because it's their life they have their karma to live too um and so even in Ashtangashala guys if you go into an Ashtangashala and the teacher is very controlling find another one I'll send you a list of teachers find another one you don't deserve you know there's we're really big about not not lionizing like do not lionize the teacher the teacher is just her teacher that's it the reason why we don't practice in front of our students is because we don't want our students to pick up our bad habits because we know we have them so we have our own that so I that's so important and yes every situation even a therapist even a fit a gem have your if something doesn't feel right it's not right right it's not right it might just be it's not right for you it might not be that the organization's a cult it might just not be right for you yeah listen to your guts listen to your it might not make sense to you it doesn't matter that's God speaking you know and so and so I I just thank you Kelly so much for being so brave to share your story and and and to really step forward I know that's really hard to do you know it's really hard to do and um and I appreciate it I just I adore you I just I feel like I've known you we probably go way way back many many many lifetimes I normally don't even answer people on Instagram that much you know because you could yeah you just get weird stuff Micah she looks like she might be okay no I actually so Kelly I know this is on like on the film I've kind of put you on the spot here I would love for you to come back and I would love for you to talk about your journey in Reiki as well not necessarily about cult stuff but just like you as a person and your journey through Reiki and your journey in the spiritual world because that's what we talk about a lot on my channel and so you know you're not just Kelly from the cult although that would be a good song from the block yeah I would love to because that's a really interesting story how that all came about and yeah I would love I would love to I would love to yeah I'd love to hear your input too around Reiki and your experience with that too because yeah it's fascinating it's so fascinating and that's a lot like I said a lot of the viewers on this channel they're new to spirit a lot of them are new some of them been around for a while in the spiritual world but they're very new and so I'm glad that they were doing this too because for new people who's you know eyes are wide wow this cool world so easy to get sucked into so easy and so I'm so grateful for you for like you know being like hold up not so fast there tiger let's talk about these things because this can happen as as my boyfriend said he was like you haven't done this like you totally would have like you wouldn't have been like finding money from your parents anywhere you know so this is this is all of us we've all done we've all you churches can be called me it's not it's it's it's happens to all of us this stuff and so we're you know one of my favorite rom dos quotes is we're all walking each other home I love that one that's my favorite and so Kelly and all the nexian people are holding hands with the Scientology people and the people who are new like come on we're gonna hold your hand through this so you don't have to go through what we've been and that's that's right that's an incredible path an honorable path to take it to serve it you are you are serving humanity right now you're doing what you set out to do when you join nexian you're doing it right now and that's what's it's a 180 you know where you're actually actually more like a 360 because you're come right back to the why you did this to begin with now you're doing it now you have the friction to actually do it so that's amazing and so guys and also any questions that you have for Kelly regarding anything I mean obviously not no inappropriate questions we're just going to delete those and probably block you but um because we know that trolls exist but we can do that yeah and we can block you I block the fundamentalist Christians all the time so I I know so many people have told me I'm going to hell because I'm sorry we're scandalous over here any questions you have for Kelly about her journey or if you're have a question about like even if something looks weird in your life and you maybe wanted to get input I would welcome that in the comment section below obviously don't put anybody's name down that isn't here to consent to that but um yeah so I just I just love you Kelly and I think I see like great beautiful things happening for you in the future and I thank you for doing this and being shedding light on this and and for writing your book and being so vulnerable to humans we're all just humans thank you thank you so much for having me this was so much fun I would love to come back awesome awesome can I add just one quick thing yes yes of course if anyone out there is struggling with cults or know someone in a cult or you're in one yourself seduceddocumentary.com it's a website has tons of information and referrals and resources right there on that website so I will put that so you said it seduceddocumentary.com yes seduced documentary.com and it's a great place I mean there's many other places for resources but that's just one that kind of has a lot in one place that people that I'm familiar with that I trust um that could help in situations so yeah I will put that in the description box below thank you for bringing it out because I do know one thing too if you have a family member who is heavily indoctrinated in the cult and in a cult it's not as easy as just being like hey you're no no um and you guys can watch seduced if you haven't seen seduced the documentary that Kelly is in a lot you'll see uh india goes back through her struggle with Catherine Oxenberg her mother yeah they really risked a lot to try to get her daughter out and so um yeah there are resources I know they're therapists that work specifically with cult survivors deprogramming um so just be very patient with yourself and with everybody and um absolutely thank you for telling me that Kelly I will put that in the description box and I'll also put it tomorrow put it up on my community tab as well just awesome thank you yeah absolutely that's what Fox2B just had I have a new branded and brainwashed documentary I just did it just came out on Fox2B which is a free streaming channel not sure it's if it's available in Europe because I was in Mexico when it came out and I couldn't get it so I'm assuming it might just be like Fox2B uh TUBI it's uh it's a um streaming channel through Fox if you just put in fox2b.com you can register with your email then verify your email and then you can watch whatever is on its alternative they call it alternative streaming but there's all kinds of stuff on there and that's interesting thing what's what's this one called uh brand branded and brainwashed branded and brainwashed oh right I will I will put that um in the description box as well um you guys I will tell you like I said I've watched seduced in the Val multiple times and I am I'm not bored every time because you just this is why we read the same books over and over again is because so much more information pops out at you each time you watch it that you miss the first time and this is the hero's story this is again as I said in the beginning Kelly this is why I think people are so I think at first they're attracted because it's sensational but then after a while it's just such an amazing story of of survivors and you not only like survive you came out kicking you all came out kicking together and put this man away and you are thriving now and that is such a testament to the human spirit and what the that the resilience I mean the resilience of a human spirit to be able to do this is unbelievable we're we're always stronger than we think we are not in a culty way not in a go brand you're doing too you're doing a spectacular job and thank you so much thank you awesome well I can't wait to have you on again so that sounds awesome guys okay bye everybody