 Jamie Higginbotham, we're gonna try something new for this particular episode and it It may be a miserable failure. It may be awesome. I have no idea But if you look at the description in YouTube, there should be a link and in that link if you click on it If you have something that you want to say if you want to be a part of the show audio and video You can click on that link and we can bring you into the show live and give your opinion and speaking of opinions Oh my goodness Boeing What Boeing I feel like every other show we're talking. I know everyone's like, oh god I feel like every other show we're talking about Boeing at this point and Yeah, the latest news isn't super great, right like it sounds like they use tape that could burn the whole vehicle I'm exaggerating. I'm exaggerating but Who who has the best version of this Ryan Jared Dolly like who has the most information here From my understanding, it's not it's not good Thanks, Ryan. Thanks. Thanks for the detail analysis. It's not good. Yeah. Yes Basically So July 21st was gonna be the day it was finally gonna happen Starlighter was gonna carry crew and then NASA and Boeing did their early investigation that they do before For safety reasons to make sure that everything checks out and everything is okay so they do the early investigation after years and years of delays and They found more problems. So now they have to delay it again with a launch date that's no longer July 21st and that is They're not able to I forgot what the exact running was but basically NASA and Boeing are unable to comfortably predict when the launch will actually be They're confident for this year But they're not confident when it exactly is So, yeah Tape Hang on. I would like to go around the room. Yeah, it was tape So I think they turn it turns out that like some of the tape that they used around electrical connections is highly flammable or something like that Yeah, the sensitive of it is highly flammable. Yeah, so I mean If I may speak out of both sides of my mouth for a moment like Certainly, especially we're gonna put humans on this thing much prefer be on the ground I'm wishing we were in the air then in the air wishing we were on the ground, right? Jared I stole that line right from you. I feel like you were gonna say that later on but like yeah, it's very true At the same time if I may speak out of the other side of my mouth for a moment Didn't Boeing get three billion extra dollars for schedule assurance? They make money They got a lot of extra money It's so Vax headroom is saying in the chat room It's flammable in a greater than 23% oxygen environment But it would be would it not be a greater than 23% oxygen environment inside of the capsule right like Why not dolly? You're shaking your head. No, why would not be great because because they they learned that lesson in Apollo one That they have a split gas System they they're providing nitrox or something like that. So if it's not rocks, then why is this an issue? Maybe because they have requirements and they say but it could get to 24 and I don't I don't know how actually important this This question is but if it's 23% oxygen That's what I'm breathing now by one way of counting or 21 by another So are we sick? Well, okay, I guess that brings up the question What is the nitrox mixture inside the capsule is it greater than 23% oxygen is 21% So if it's 21% I guess their concern is that if the mixture Becomes greater than if the mixture ratio changes it could go 23 24% and all of a sudden We've got this adhesive that could be very very flammable and fire in space equals bad. It did I Did I summarize that correctly? Yes? Yeah? Yeah, I thought I thought there were two issues you go ahead Let me clarify the 21 versus 23 those the round numbers if you count them by numbers of molecules or if you count them by a mass That's that's the difference So I don't know which one the 23 that they're saying about the about the tape burning in is but it's close enough that the point is made And what it artist says use that tape for you nizers University project the details in the box say hazardous No flammable no might want to change that so then that begs the question Is this actually bowing's fault or is this were they given bad data? Made assumptions based on the data that they were given or not even made assumptions But came to conclusions based on the data that they were given I mean it's the thing with Starliner is it's so late and they were so much money thrown into it and because of you know But ton of mistakes with bowing with regards like airplanes and other it's easy to like just like Rag on it, you know, but yeah, maybe it actually isn't their fault like we don't have all of the information We don't we don't know what happened behind the scenes From my perspective, it just looks like The entire commercial crew program in one way or another it seemed late dragon was delayed Starline has been delayed just a little bit more than dragon. I think the comparison is being made where dragon has flown from a Company who was new to the game? SpaceX we look at them now is pretty Experienced but back back in the day compared to bowing they were new to the game and yet they've kind of just came up to the challenge and just flown with dragon with minimal to no problems and then people look at the Starliner vehicle and they see It basically well it hasn't flown humans yet and yet SpaceX are now coming up to the end of their first commercial crew contract That's in my opinion what is being perceived by the community at the moment not saying that it's it's 100% the truth But that's what it's being look That's how it's being seen by the community bowing having problems where when the when the new underdog in SpaceX has taken the lead with Lester a's and a and a more more Kind of futuristic more than capsule I say in big air quotes because it depends how you look at it Jared I think either you have an itch on your face, or you want to say something Actually Eka in the chat room has a perfect comment I think that describes One of the issues in commercial crew, which is the Congress made those initial delays due to not fully funding it in the beginning So I mean, yeah, there was a lot of delays simply because Congress critters Wanted to move money to certain specific areas and that's what happens when that happens I also feel like there's a really big component in the fact that commercial crew there was no Standard for this beforehand. This is the first time we were handing over the building of spacecraft to a Completely commercial entity. This is the first time anybody was doing that. So this was a program It's like a bleeding edge program And unlike a DARPA program where somebody can reach a point and then say, you know what? This is a really a possibility With commercial crew reaching a point and saying, I don't think we could do this probably would have been a absolutely epic failure And again, I'm sure Congress would have absolutely taken notice of that And the results probably would have been even worse than just simply having to delay a vehicle because it's unsafe Jctv does have an valid point which is Congress under funds every project look at any rail or road project it isn't just limited to aerospace and Even though it was underfunded I would argue that commercial space thus far has been wildly successful And is that why maybe Boeing is struggling so hard because it was a new type of contract It was a new way of doing things. It wasn't the old-school cost plus imagine if Starliner was cost-plus right now No, really like think it like yeah Oh, I could tell you I'm pretty sure Boeing's not particularly thrilled about the fact that it was a fixed price contract because Over the course of Starliner with the delays and all the changes that they've had to made They're probably I would imagine in excess of having to have eaten a billion of their own dollars at this point That that might almost mitigate the the revenue you would get from a contract like that Let's go around the room really quickly You mentioned Boeing like we don't have a net date. We don't have a new earlier than launch date for Starliner We don't know when this thing is going to go I'm wondering Because it is so woefully over budget. I mean, I'm assuming it's woefully over budget internally I guess we don't really get to see those numbers like Boeing's not doing bad, but they're not doing great I'm wondering if they're gonna look at this program and just be like no, we're done. We're not gonna do this So do we think around the room? Do we think? Starliner will ever actually send humans to the International Space Station Dolly. Let's start with you. Yes. Yes I think it will I think Boeing will Suck it up as a matter of company pride and spend the money that would buy them back ULA roughly To to not lose face in this regard, but you know, this is my intuition. I don't know I mean, no, no, no Ryan I I Think Starliner will send humans to a space station But I'm not gonna say that they will send humans to the International Space Station just because of the fact That it's only got I mean what's the time? 2023 and it could be gone in the next Seven eight years like the worst-case scenario 2028 2029 You're saying you don't think Starliner would launch in the next seven to eight years You think it would launch but not in seven to eight years Come on man. I'm just saying worst-case scenario. No, I Think there's a I think I think there's a good chance of my hubris to the International Space Station Whether they get multiple flights out of that. I don't know Because SpaceX has kind of just wrapped up the contracts at this point NASA obviously wants that redundancy dragons been proven to be reliable. I'm not saying redundancy isn't a good thing But Starliner definitely Will not be able to serve the purpose it was intended to serve flying alongside dragon for the duration that dragon has flown It hasn't NASA doesn't have redundancy at the moment and it hasn't been a problem yet Not saying God forbid it won't be a problem in the future But Starliner is probably only going to get two three flights in my opinion This is how I'm looking at it considering they're only going to be flying once a year once they have dragon and Starliner so Not I do flight rate will be reduced because it has dragon alongside it I do want to touch on one other thing But before I do that Dan in the chat room said the ISS lifetime would be extended for booing crew crew flight test Oh That's a good one. Thanks, dad Gee so you said maybe not the International Space Station You're not all you would also not assume that it's not going it's not going to any other space station Right, it's not going to like an axiom space station or like it's definitely not going to Tian Gong, right? They're like your options today are ISS Tian Gong maybe no it's I say no if you think hang on no no no no no no if you think about it It's not Chiangang physically physically. It's both No, there is no way that there is no way it's way Boeing is going to dark. No Yes, that's what I was about to say all but orbital reef will be starliners kind of the point of starliner But then you have dream chaser So what's the point of star right redundancy redundancy? The word redundancy What's the government? The government will pay twice. Yeah, but the business is going to orbital reef will not pay twice the money I have one when you can have to it twice the same twice the price, right? Yeah, but dolly Well dolly's point. Okay. Yeah, I mean a government would certainly do that and they do I don't but you're dolly You're saying why would a private enterprise do that? That's crazy for private enterprise. Is that is that your point? That's my point is orbital reef is going to be commercial Primarily, yes, the government will buy some things. So yeah, sure The government might say we want to be able to get to this thing like the ISS and do it But I don't really see commercial people being willing to pay an extra 50 or 60 million or whatever the number would be To get four people or maybe seven if they you know Get their seats out of the ass end of the thing or no card. I don't know it. It was supposed to be seven Why why isn't why isn't it seven? In what well before we get I can't ask you We know in well, all right before we get into that. We're gonna try something new. I believe we have Vax headroom I don't know how well this will work. So a lot of us an opportunity Vax it has been a hot minute since you have been on the show. He downloaded Chrome just for us No, actually it runs an edge. It'll run an edge. So I tried it an edge. I usually use Firefox You need to pull your input volume down by a good 12 DB Vax. Hold on and work I Did it recently land behind you like is it currently dumping locks what's going on, okay? The deck is dry We're troubleshooting live Okay, how's that? I think it's quite a bit better Up six up six DB Back half. How's that? There you go. Yep. Sounds about right. So talk talk to us about Starliner Star I you know the only thing I've I know is the things that I've you know read online and have already talked about You know the fact that I mean they're using of deprecated apparently there the the tape that they're using is a deprecated material It's not approved anymore, but it was likely it was approved at the time they did the design So, you know, I mean, how do you qualify it, right? If you have to go back and and change that then it's you know a lot of work to tear it out of but you don't You don't have to take it out of pressurized vessel area. You don't take it out anything It's gonna be in vacuum no oxygen there, right? So and it's not like it's gonna burst into flame or anything It's just you know, it's gonna be you know, if there's a fire It would burn if it was in greater than 20% 23% or whatever the number is so Okay, I guess just any fire in space is bad if it's not controlled it's bad, right? Like like even if it's not if it may not be exploding, but like it's consuming oxygen. It's do it's putting out smoke It's doing, you know, who knows especially if it's on electrical wiring like is it melting through infrastructure? Like yeah So that's what's your opinion we went around the room. When do you think? Well, I'm sorry That wasn't the question. Do you think Starliner will actually fly? Yeah, I think it's a PR nightmare Whether it's a big technical problem or not. I have no insight Well, wait wait wait though PR is part of it, right? Oh, I'm not saying it's not flying because of technical I'm saying will I mean media relations could be like no we can't fly this thing We like the CEO could be like no, this is this is egg on our face We need to we need to put a stop to this like that's a very real scenario, too. Is it not? Yeah, so You know how many how many Starliners have they built or are they going to build? What's there? Do you know what the plan is? I don't know is it I don't one They're not one I wouldn't think I'm gonna assume that they would have had one for the Like the Demonstration one that didn't work and then a second one for the demonstration one which did work and then may and then one or two More for ground testing so I guess around four and then for this upcoming proof like I guess probably four five so far Just for what we've seen but that's just a guess Yeah, Phillips Phillips White House in the chat room says they're only planning to build like two Yeah, so I mean the question would be you know, how far have they gotten in any any subsequent units that they're going to build you know Don't know I'm like I said no insight there All right, thank you Vax. Thank you first off for being the first guest that we brought in this way ever on the show Which was Fun and interesting This was a lot of fun. It's been a long time since we've had you on the show I want to go back. Yeah, it's been a long time Years, but you know, yeah, that's true if people want to go back you did a magical show I think were we space big cast at the time? We did a magical show that was All about C dragon so either search TMRO C dragon or space big cast C dragon and you can find it So again, thank you Vax so much Actually Eddie has a really good question I don't know the answer to it and maybe they're maybe we're about to go around the room and no one knows But what is the price per seat on the starliner? Does anyone know one more than one it's more than crew dragon is it not or is it I Don't imagine so considering it's yes reusable Yeah, I believe there was that cost analysis that came out last year That show that was basically talking about the differences between Crew Dragon and Starliner costs and Starliner was even more expensive than Soyuz at that time. So Yeah Arielle says oh, I G estimates it was 90 million per seat Soy or the same as Soyuz. Oh Go ahead Jared. I remember I remember that Boeing was basically saying yes the 90 mil is is a ok because we can bring back cargo and It's like we could bring back a whole person worth of cargo So like you're getting a bonus because you're also bringing back 90 million dollars worth of cargo and like boy that was There was the marketing team trying to swoop in and save the day there I mean they got to try something. They got to try something. You know Boeing wasn't the only fail You know, I actually I'm apprehensive to call Boeing a fail, right? They didn't put anyone's lives in danger They didn't actually make it to orbit like engineering is hard. They found the issue on the ground. Is that a failure? Yeah Like they found the issue, but yeah, it's just this it would have been nice if they if they if they sort of this sound Like three four years ago. That's all In there it's it's perceived as a race between SpaceX and Boeing It's not a race, but it's perceived as a race and Boeing has lost that perceived race. That's the that's that's the problem which we Discussing essentially Yeah, I I agree and especially since Boeing was not like SpaceX at the time was the underdog It's like how did how did not only did they beat you but beat you so by so much Yeah, poor Boeing although. I think we'll end on a comment from the chatroom from Scott higher Herrod It says says stall liner You guys are funny you guys are funny. I love it. I love it Ryan. How's NASA spaceflight going? Good question. It's going brilliant. Let's have a look shall we? going well Space did you hold up hold up? Did you sneak NASA spaceflight into the tomorrow's been there since like 12 months whenever I got this thing It's been there. It was star base light. No originally. It was the ISS then it was star base life No, it's spacecoats live And SF live slash space coast if anyone's interested So what if am I allowed to ask what's your role over at NASA space like what are you working on over there? I host videos. I edit videos. I made some pretty graphic Well, I think they're pretty made some graphics So what you do here some cool stuff. So yeah, pretty much what I do here except I'm Except I do a little bit more Regulated and controlled I'll put it that way So you had some So is in the mail? Yes And a wild Dada appears yes, and then disappears so you like Boeing wasn't the only one having troubles this last week No, talk to us about North Korea, right? Oh North Korea North Korea How how things have gone so that's not North Korea. I'm trying to find the image here. Okay, so they launched a rocket I forgot what it was called, but it was Chiang Long one something along those lines I apologize for forgetting very picturesque launch site very pretty first stage burn appears to have gone. Okay kind of I'd imagine like a firefly alphas first flight first stage burn went, okay Firefly offer didn't actually get that far But you know just imagine this is kind of the speculated theory. So first stage burn went, okay second stage separates and That's pretty much all we heard So this is the image we got out of the DPRK of the I think it's the seho satellite Launching facility or something along those lines. It's very pretty What's this one? There you go another image there? I mean, it's kind of got it's beautiful and bird vibes. Yeah With a bit of your your bike, you know of a stochney kind of towers here that you see in Russia and whatnot But then a few hours later We got some images out of the South Korean military because they had Obtained a rocket which had fallen into the sea and Unfortunately, it was in a in a few pieces. This is one of the pieces And something that was brought to pretty much everyone's attention straight away is the Interesting engineering of the tank dobes. I was just looking at what what was all weird shape together Yeah, the weird shapes in the pressure vessel. What's going on there? I? Have no idea what's going on. I'd love to get the chat rooms thoughts on this, but it kind of looks like they've got Plaster board and kind of patched it together with some kind of gluey paint stuff That's kind of what it's reminding me of maybe some kind of plaster of Paris in there as well But it's that thing on that could be thermal on top though, right? Like we don't we can't tell from this picture that could be a thermal like blanket sitting on top That's just kind of quilted together that may not be the actual metal pressure vessel because if you look at the little Valve releasey thing on the right hand side if you're able to zoom me into that. Yeah Like you can you can see the clear metal there around it and then it kind of dips in so I'm Wondering if that's just like a material that they put on top of the metal and the metal itself doesn't actually have that yeah Peritron saying paper mache rocket And if it was made out of paper mache, then I wonder it couldn't get to orbit But yeah, I'm just like because I'm looking we're obviously very used to like the the kind of smooth domes Clayton plug that you see with starship Um kind of like this which is like all nice and smooth and then just to see just to see this is kind of In all fairness in our fairness round, you still do you have the picture of the very first starship that was revealed? This one flew that one didn't fly That's fair So you you said they had good stage one flight and then they possibly pulled a relativity That's the theory because what we're seeing is like part we're seeing second and third stages kind of appear in the uh area which um Like the the not mar the notice to mariners where the first stage was meant to come in so that's kind of What's being assumed based on where things have crashed Where they have with what we're being told so um, I might bring up a map actually just to try and get some context to everyone because um You think of north korea. You can't really go to the east which is the ideal Kind of um Trajectory because of earth oh you can go to the east you'll just make some people upset Well, yeah, um trying to start a war. Is that your point? Yeah uh, okay, so the uh Storing for time here we go. So the launch site is somewhere around here. I think it might be here. Anyway, somewhere around here So no, it did not launch east it came down this way And then did a big old dog leg while I was intending to do a big old dog leg to come down this way So you can see the the the the trajectory so if we I try to zoom out here a bit So it would be kind of coming out this way towards china doing a big old dog down into the They flew retrograde We're going to dog leg And yes, then Were they going to continue retrograde or like how much energy does this rocket have? That is a lack not enough because it didn't get to orbit. Uh, but ideally Retrograde a bit do a big old dog leg to then start heading south towards Prograde so kind of following this line down here Along the Along taiwan and the philippines down towards puapa niggini. That's what's kind of the The the the trajectory there Well was the truth. Wow. Go ahead. Go ahead dally that that dog leg is an amazing flex If you wanted to show off that you had delta v to spend Throw a 45 degree dog leg in at the stage break or something. Holy crap. Wow Yeah, that's insane I like I'm still trying to wrap my head around that particular flight plan and I get why they're doing it I just don't get how they're doing it and obviously they didn't but like if they were successful like how how like that That's amazing I mean it doesn't take the it doesn't take the cake for the for the most impressive dog leg because I brought up the H3 inaugural flight from japan, which is kind of their Falcon 9 kind of equivalent rocket, which they're working on the first launch Wasn't successful. However, it had a 90 degree essentially dog leg out of the the space center in japan So it's not the most impressive dog leg, but it's certainly one whopper of a dog leg You can see yeah three here went out this way and then turned to the right this way That looks like 80 degrees Sure, it does also look less steep than the maneuver that north korea would have had to make If it looked to me like north korea was gonna have to make a really sharp turn This looks a little more gradual. I mean, yeah, you're still losing. I'm just actually I just want to say Kind of like their graphics Sorry, sorry They're nice looking though, right? Look at that. They're nice and clean. I like the timeline's horizontal not vertical like well done Um, can't read him, but like I like him x plus x plus how's very spacex of them Very very nice So but the the difference between these two one of those was intentionally orbital And i'm assuming that nothing from pyong yang is intended to reach orbit It's just intended to reach a far sub orbital target. Am I correct? Or polar orbit Well, yes, if they wanted to actually put something up and keep it there that would be very interesting That would be but yeah, maybe Maybe they were just lagging down for say it was a spy satirite Well, it was meant to be a spy satirite that went to about 500 kilometers So that's a polar orbit into orbit. So they're going to polar orbit They were they were gonna lag again They were just gonna dog lag down and then continue with a polar orbit, right? That makes more sense, doesn't it? They just can't fly over their neighbors because their neighbors get upset considering who they are and where they are Fair enough fair enough And they don't mind they have They have gotten two payloads into orbit around the earth. So it's not like This is some unprecedented thing that they've done. North Korea has satellite in orbit around the earth So north korea has two satellites put up I didn't know thank you today. I've learned Uh, yeah, I didn't know that either. I'm more impressed Are they g or polar like what kind of orbit are they andina polar? Um, okay, but also if you ask north korea, they've launched a hundred Touche jared touche well played well played Um, all right. Did you have any other sorry? I like I Totally stalled on this story ryan. Did you have more data on this one or should I move on? That was pretty much it. I just thought it was quite funny that the the um Um Their neighbors in the south just discovered their rocket just bobbing about in the ocean I'd suspect so yeah, well watch what are you guys ready for the segue? You ready for this Here we go. Well speaking of dumping a rocket in water Jared has a story. Yeah, he likes this of uh Enceladus and it's ocean Ocean to ocean Actually, but anyway, I didn't hang on. I didn't introduce you jared So you currently I'm allowed to say that you work at the griffin griffith observatory You gave yes The most amazing tours ever if anyone's ever in the los angeles area hit up jared asked for a tour Are they allowed to do that? Doesn't matter do it. Um Okay, sure put me on the spot. That's fine. Uh, am I allowed to video that? Uh, I think if I'm off the clock sure we can make that happen. Maybe we'll have to see So I'm getting jared in trouble. It's complicated. So like like a mini great things. It's complicated So jared's role on the show for those who don't know is to convince me That astronomy is not stupid. So ready go He's done really well over the years. I got it done really well It's it's you know, it's Okay, I'm not going to make the obvious starlink joke. Um about it because that's just not nice today I was going to say it's mighty hard to do it for Someone who works for a company that's ruining it, but anyways, uh, you are welcome Thank you. Thank you guys so much. We appreciate Having to spend our own money to figure out how to remove the streaks. All right, so um, but Uh, using what everyone always says that we should just build a bajillion of but never give us the money of a space telescope Uh, this one specifically jelscope ballascape. We have been able to look at one of Saturn's moons Now we did not have any Missions in the outer solar system active at Saturn Uranus and Neptune So j dub is kind of our means by which to be able to explore from afar And that's very very helpful, especially because it looks in the infrared and infrared light He allows you to see things that you otherwise can't with your eyes invisible light One of those things that we got to see was Enceladus or j me as you like to call Enceladus you like to call us enchiladas, uh, so Imaging Enceladus For some survey work. They were actually able to detect the water plumes that Cassini had discovered during its mission when it was at Saturn from 2004 until its end in 2018 and uh, You know looking at the imagery of that plume itself was absolutely fascinating because we were able to see that the plume was significantly larger than was expected. So there's more material actually coming out and that material is water and Enceladus is a place that is so close to Saturn that it's the tidal forces kind of flex it and End up heating up the interior and causing I guess the best way to describe it. I don't I don't know if I call them cryo volcanoes But geysers but really big geysers shooting out of itself pull just spewing water vapor out and We were able to look at it with uh jdub and we were able to find That there's a lot more coming out than was originally thought in fact the scientists doing the study of it ended up Going and double checking and triple checking their data and then asked everybody to kind of show them Wrong because they just thought there's no way that there's this amount of water vapor actually coming out This is more than what we were expecting from the Cassini data. Well, it turns out Cassini spacecraft not exactly made to study that because that wasn't known until literally Cassini happened to fly behind Enceladus while taking images from behind it. Then all of a sudden we saw the geysers Turns out Cassini didn't have the instruments to really Measure that as effectively as we wanted to But Jelloscope can and it has and it's significantly more than we were expecting and a lot of that actually stays around Enceladus so mission to Enceladus To actually sample the water or maybe bring some of that back Should be a lot easier than we were expecting it to be and that should make a mission to Enceladus a big priority Which it was in our last planetary decadal survey So very exciting stuff coming from the outer solar system a place that just doesn't get enough love Easier than you expect it to be it's still really freaking hard Jared It's still really really hard. Oh, let me ask you. Absolutely. Let me ask you this though And forgive my bluntness who cares so Enceladus has water farts What's the matter who cares water farts on a on a moon? What does this matter? What what could this bring us? well, obviously the biggest sort of cell on Enceladus would be finding life at Enceladus or finding conditions for life the possibility of it being there Getting to study it and understanding it and comparing and contrasting what we have here on earth Also helps out with climate here on earth as well get to see different types of geology And in addition to that the technological development, right? You've got to be able to build all these amazing technologies in order to actually have your spacecraft work on its way there How does that help with climate? I don't understand Would climate? Yeah, how does it help? I'm sorry. I meant geology like straight-up geology. Did I not say geology? You said climate you said it would help with climate here on earth, and I'm like, uh, how does it help with climate on earth? No, not quite so geology. I'm sorry. I got that mixed up boy. Didn't I that's a little bit of a difference So, okay, but then same question. How's it helping with geology? Just like understanding like that flex the Flex due to the it's gravitational flex, right? Is it like Saturn's pulling and It's essentially with tidal forces, you know gravity pulling on the material You know that enceladus is made out of and flexing it back and forth and causing it to heat up And I guess it would be like very large compressional forces with that going on there. So Bennett Bennett may have the new winning chat for the show We'll find out in a moment. We'll see how everyone feels Bennett elder says also gives nerds something to do other than crypto mine That's true. That's a good one Bennett. I like that one Bennett. Well played well played I also do want to point out that enceladus is Water there's lots of water there and it's spewing it out So water kind of important for if you want to send people and rockets to other places in the solar system So right so have it in oxygen those two things are kind of important for people or fuel for your vehicle So you could use enceladus as like a cut as like a 7-eleven if you will for our solar Actually, that's where um new girl new glands hydrolox, right? That's not care locks Question mark new glands hydrolox or is it care loss the upper stage is hydrolox new shepherd is hydrolox New Glenn is a care locks first age So we could say metal locks Okay, which which one's hydrolox new shepherd upper stage new shepherd the upper stage that has been doing suborbital hops I think I know what you're about to say jamie Well, right couldn't wouldn't that be an amazing vehicle to send there then because if you're doing hydrolox You've got all of the elements necessary to build your fuel right there and come home All right. So yeah, I'm not amazing Why don't we just send a blue moon lander? It would only need, you know, several different refueling missions, which is definitely not Uh, highly or very complex and high risk at all No, not at all peace cake. Didn't they say that hang on Ryan wait wait wait wait wait wait Didn't they say that in the Apollo era? Isn't that why the um, the lunar rendezvous orbit was like poo pooed because the like You want to do what in lunar in lunar orbit? You want to do what in space? You want to like do all of these rendezvous and everything else? We just need to go direct there, right? Didn't von Braun want to go direct there and then we turns out that actually it's not that hard like Don't we do refueling on space station all the time? Is this really that hard? Am I making this sound simpler than it is? Yes, the difference the difference from a felt from a What the from eight to five engines that's a big difference Sure, I just it's like You're gonna have cryo burn off right you've got to protect your fuels and whatnot but like cryo is a whole different animal like that is that is a whole new species of Storeable propellants in space that's tough to do Sure, this mission wouldn't require storing them you'd use all of it getting there and use a little of something else getting stopped And get your infrastructure and then your infrastructure Stores it and dumps it off now that means your infrastructure is a lot heavier than the launch rocket But let's assume that we're not just doing a simple sample a single sample return to the system like that Eddie joker as z yt Zulu Yankee tango asks why a blue moon why not star liner Well, first off and tell us it's not a star. So you did not need to capitalize star But but the reason is because of hydrolox right because um Well is well not blue moon, but the new shepherd vehicles what I we what we were talking about I was going towards hydrolox because you've got water on enceladus. That's what jared super excited about is water on accelerates just spewing out everywhere And obviously there's more than we expected Well, is it more or further or both? Yes, yeah, so both So it's spewing out more more of it is staying around enceladus that was anticipated and more of it is going into orbit and making Actually, what we call the e-ring which is the outer very diffuse ring of material around Saturn. So significantly more than was expected Wait, wait, wait. So you're saying that part. Am I understanding correctly that part of Saturn's ring is water from enceladus Yes, yeah, water ice from enceladus. That's kind of badass. I'm gonna give you points for that one. That's pretty cool That's pretty cool. Yeah, I'll give you all the credit to jared right because you're you're here to convince me that astronomy isn't stupid Hey, you're doing a pretty good job. I actually do enjoy it like that's pretty awesome. That's pretty epic um I would just like to point out quickly though that uh blue moon is according to blue origin's website I don't know how our data is but it is powered by uh hydrolox. So That is another option not just nuclear actually. That's a good point then Me blue moon What a what a great website Um, but yeah, like um, it just would need to be hydrolox and then to the question earlier. Why not starliner? um Starline is methalox, right? So you could fill your liquid oxygen tank when you get back to when you get to enceladus But where are you getting your liquid methane from now? When we find life on enceladus, the life may give off methane and that might be where we get the the methane from But until we find that life That feels like an ethical minefield and i'm not going to walk through that one blindfolded tonight We just need to bring the migraka cars with us but jared. I was leading you straight to it I was leading you straight to it. Come on If i've got water coming out of enceladus and there's life there. Can I detect it without landing? Actually, I don't know about that. I would have to I The key the the most critical component to detecting life is that you want to make sure that it's not something They accidentally brought with you. Uh, so Not landing would really help It would but the problem is that you've got to be able to do that With very high confidence Um, I feel like you would have to fly through the plume and grab stuff Maybe you can have a like the stardust mission or the genesis mission. Uh, which had, uh, Oh, what's it called? I just had it in my head The aero gel that can capture the that water or that ice material and then some sort of Chemistry lab on board of your vehicle that we can then bring an individual Things with so All the way home that that only requires a little bigger rocket, right? Yeah, just a little bit or a free return trajectory from Saturn through the glum of enceladus Which if you could do that you are an absolute like wizard of trajectory You just need somebody to balance other's on kSP and I'll do it fine. I'll do it And the keyboard as well Thousands of days of money Easy, so. I will say, if we're going to Enceladus, we're landing on Enceladus. We're drilling through the, how thick is the ice? It's like miles along kilometers. No, we're not gonna drill through the ice. That's the whole idea. You don't have to drill through the ice. There's geysers at the surface. Go climb up to the geyser. Okay, you go into the geyser. So we land on enchiladas. We then, the submarine. Drive something. Right, the submarine drops into the geyser. It's a submarine. We have to have a submarine that sends back live imagery. I require a submarine. Fine, fine. You gotta take your villain kick into this and just make it however you want with it, right? That's what I want. I understand. We're going to put a helicopter on Mars. Why are you sub-marine on Enceladus? Wait a minute, Dolly, you're totally right. We've got a helicopter on Mars. I want a submarine on Enceladus. I should get the title for this show. Helicopter on Mars, submarine on Enceladus. Absolutely, sub-ship. Yes, you got me excited about astronomy. You don't necessarily have to have a submarine either because the whole idea, especially at Europa, where they think that you're most likely going to have your life, is actually going to be at the ice-water boundary. And at JPL, I have seen that they have designed rovers that are positively buoyant. So basically they would deploy it into the ocean and then because it has positive buoyancy, it would push itself up against the ice and then it would drive around on the bottom of the ice being able to do that. So that would be fantastic to be able to do something like that. I would, I mean, just thinking about it, I get excited about it and then actually getting to go do it and then doing that in Enceladus as well, that's bonkers. Eddie Joker did correct us. Eddie Joker, Zulu, Yankee, Tango, said star marine, not submarine because everything has to start with a star now. Right, yeah. Oh, Vax Headroom says they're already testing that in Antarctica. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. I've seen videos of them testing that in Alaska as well. This is going to diverge, this is going to diverge very quickly into other things. You know what? Actually, hang on, what we're going to do is- You should talk about, you know, maybe we should look at those videos in the show, after show for our members. Diverging alternate transport on planets. Alternate transport on planets. Oh no, so we remember diverging alternate transport on planets. Submarine design. Right, we did a helicopter. I want a submarine. We got hot air balloons on Venus. Like, I want to talk about this and we'll bring this up in the, we'll bring this up in the membership. So where's the train going? Train, yes, exactly, train. What's a train? Air balloons, oh God. Ryan, this is America. It's a car, what's a train? Or rails. So talking about- Talking about- We have to find escalators. Oh, post-show, post-show people. Oh, post-show. So talking about all of the crazy Delta V necessary to get to Enceladus and capture water and then come back and then do all of that. I'm going to hand it off to Dolly and one of the topics, you had a bunch of topics. But one of the topics you had was fusion bad fission good, does that relate to just power or does that relate to transit or both? Well yeah, transit for power or power for transit or something like that and also power to operate your spacecraft there. So it isn't necessarily the Delta V, although it may be electric ion kind of thing which can over time develop to an amazing amount of Delta V without losing too much of your spacecraft mass to propellant mass. So nuclear reactors I think are the way to get down to a decent enough power to weight ratio to make them work. And then of course you have plenty of power once you get there to do whatever it is that you went there for. That's the important thing. There is so much attention and here's where I'm going to get negative on fusion. We keep being excited about moving towards some sort of a unity gain on fusion and that unity gain is actually an order of magnitude away from practical commercial. So if the gains we've made in the last 50 years continue at the same rate, fusion will be competitive with fission in about a hundred years. So that's not good enough. I don't think fission is going to reach economic positive. I do think in maybe in my lifetime, maybe not will reach possible to generate power. Technology doesn't work in a linear scale, generally speaking, right? Don't we usually see some sort of- I'm working on the exponential scale. Oh, so you are not working linearly. You're expecting an exponential- Right, they've gotten about 10x better in the last 50 years. When they get 10x better again, they'll be commercially viable. And then with improvements from there could become competitive with fission. But fission is actually really good. But if- So I'm not arguing against fusion. I'm just saying that if it was 10x better in 50 years, you said, right? Yeah. Isn't it usually- Can't we expect, in general, obviously things change, but can't we expect a doubling again in half the time? So it takes, so instead of 50 years now it's 25 years, but now you get your 10x and then you get a doubling again in half the time. Isn't that usually how these things graph out? Almost like a Moore's law. No, you might be able to cut the difference. You might be able to cut the difference between the asymptotic limit. But yeah, and then maybe I'm being too specific about it. You're saying that it should speed up and so I'm being too pessimistic. No, I'm asking, isn't that a possibility? Like, don't we see this generally speaking with technology? One big breakthrough. And everything I'm saying goes away. One really big fundamental breakthrough. And there are several that promise to have that possibility of that breakthrough. The downside of fusion, though, is the waste. Is it not? We became... Oh, I don't care. Totally don't care. But I mean, people care. No, I'm not worried about it. The waste is not a problem where it's sitting now waiting to be put into a can do reactor. Basically, we have not put these things into Yucca Mountain and I'm really glad we haven't because right now they're sitting in cooling ponds in nice, safe, secure places. And as soon as everybody else grabs enough of the can do technology, C-I-N-D-U, we can talk about that later, that can take the waste from other reactors and grab several more years of the fuel on it and then recycle that back into itself. The can do is so cool it can use the uranium unenriched right out of the ground because it uses heavy water. Go ahead, Jared. I was gonna say, usually one of the biggest problems overall with nuclear is that you say the word nuclear and everybody panics immediately. I mean, during the launches of Galileo and Ulysses on the space shuttle because of the high accident rate of the shuttle and also those were launches that were just a couple of years after Challenger that were massive protests at both of those launches because Galileo and Ulysses used radio thermal isotope generators, RTGs, in order to make their power. And there was also, you know, protests when Cassini was launched on a Titan IV and when Perseverance and Curiosity were launched as well because they have RTGs. So there's a really big public perception that is very strongly negative against any sort of nuclear technology. Now, I mean, I personally don't have a problem with fission. I look at that as like a critical component to combating climactic change and like get over it and get used to it and make better systems. But overall, yeah. Whoa, where did that come from? Like why, wait, hang on, hang on. Why does it matter between fission and fusion for climactic change? Right? Like both of them would serve the same. Well, because we have fission now. Yes. That's what Dolly's saying is that we have fission now. Fusion has been 10 years away for 70 years. So, you know, it's use what you have now as opposed to wait for what may be. You know, stop waiting on the dream and start actually acting on it. Put your attention on the place where you actually can make progress in my lifetime because I'm selfish, okay? And I'm fine with all of the fusion research. Big round of applause for them, but please let us not wait for warp drive before we go to Mars. And that's what I think the attention on fusion research is is takes us away from thinking about this fusion thing which has worked my whole life and has killed way fewer people than solar panels which has killed way fewer people than coal. So, forgive my ignorance, but you know, we've got waste with fission that creates a problem for people just whether or not, like people don't like that idea. Sure. You've got, you know, we had Chernobyl, we had, what was it, Three Mile Island? I forget the number of miles, but like, yeah, we had these incidents, right? And so people are just like apprehensive. With fusion, do we have those same potential issues? Or do we have worse issues? Like do we have, do we have, well, do we have a storage problem of waste? Do we have potential meltdowns? We have a highly irradiated structure that is quite a bit larger than the fusion, sorry, than the fission comparative thing. And if the fusion thing does let go, because an accident that we didn't see coming spreads a few 10,000 tons of highly irradiated stuff all over 60 kilometers radius. That's bigger than Chernobyl. Yeah, and I wanted to say too, just to add in that we really, the chatroom's kind of talking on that, which is that the accidents that have happened with fission are not something that have like wrapped up and now they're kind of in the past or anything like that. I would argue that even Chernobyl, the effects of that are still occurring in the area. You know, there's still a massive exclusion zone and it's gonna be thousands of years before you could even really safely be around that area for a very long period of time. So these are things we have to be, these are types of technology that we have to be very, very careful with and we have to make sure that the design and the operations that we do and the safety of it is paramount with all of that. We can't skimp on the problems that end up causing the entirety of a type of energy generation to be labeled with. So let's just say for a moment that we wake up tomorrow and for whatever reason, the social angst against fission goes away. We're suddenly socially, it's unacceptable because it used to be that way, right? I mean, we built nuclear power plants using this technology. There's operation, the plowshare where they were thinking about like, oh, we're gonna make a harbor using hydrogen bombs, you know, like, oh, we're gonna get gas out of the, we're gonna get natural gas out of the ground by blowing up nuclear bombs in Colorado. So that way we could pull the gas out and oh, the gas is now really irradiated. I guess we can't do that. What does this look like for space travel? Is this just basically a giant steam engine effectively that we're shooting supersonic steam out the back end of the nozzle, what does that look like? No, it's a reactor producing electricity, electricity producing ions and spitting ions at several factors above chemical rocket velocities. But the ions are really light, right? Because kinetic energy, and for those in the room, please forgive me if I got this wrong, but kinetic energy is half of your mass by velocity squared, right? So the speed at which you're moving is very, very important. Your mass is not as important, but mass is still important, right? So like, would you have enough, like these engines aren't getting us out of our gravity well, right? Question mark? No, no, no, these are for interorbital things. And I'm, depending on which kind of system I'm looking for, my optimum velocities are on the order of 14,000 meters per second up to 30,000. So this is the low velocity for ions a little bit. Ions are usually 25 to 40,000. Okay, I'm not gonna run them. Doesn't matter. Right now on the air. You're saying that would compare, you're saying that that would be due to the velocity that would compare better than a chemical rocket, or a chemical engine. Oh, it's far, far better than a chemical rocket, but what I'm actually comparing against is like a photovoltaic powered. Oh, okay. Which is what I'd use anytime this side of Mars. I'm not bothering with nuclear for anything closer than Mars. Because I feel like people care about nuclear until it's in safely in space away from them. Sure, I'm not gonna start with the reactor on Mars. I'm not gonna start at the reactor on the ground. I don't mind sending the fuel parts up in a specially extra, extra safe kind of thing that can withstand reentry and everything else. And then having that installed on orbit because I'm gonna be fueling and probably even building the thing on orbit or assembling it on orbit. I'm probably not gonna try to launch an interplanetary long-term spacecraft like this that is big enough to have a nuclear reactor on it as opposed to something that can be scaled down to a few tons. I'm talking about a thousand ton kind of ship. Vax wants to know, Dolly, why not a nuclear thermal rocket? Nuclear thermal is great for ejection maneuvers because, no, it's not very competitive with chemical rockets as far as power to weight ratio, but it's orders of magnitude higher than what I'm describing for the ejection maneuver. And the Oberoth effect can be a much bigger advantage than this about two to one that I get from my system. The Oberoth effect might be three or four to one under the best of conditions. And so using a lower ISP, much higher thrust thing to scoop you up in several runs. You don't go out in one go. Three or four or five burns to get to your ejection with long swings. And then your final one is, anyway, that's Kerbal stuff. But the idea is with... We're Kerbal-ing on the air live, Dolly. We're Kerbal-ing on the air. I just mean Kerbal, like it's orbital dynamics calc. Yeah. No, yeah, I'm sorry. No, no, continue. I'm not sure. Both are necessary. You want the nuclear thermal for that stuff and that's certainly a reactor. And that's one that doesn't actually leave. It doesn't finish the ejection room. It goes into a high and captures and is reused. And every month you're sending out a new something in the long run. If you're bothering to put a reactor in space, you wanna use it a bunch. So paint me a picture. Let's just say we as a society approve all of this. We're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. What would that open up immediately? Like, I can build this right now. Okay. What type of travel would this immediately make available that we're not able to do right now? Or how does this make our life better other than just like you've got a really efficient, effectively a really efficient system? Which obviously- It cuts that Enceladus trip that we were talking about from 20 years to about six. And is much, much less mass launched to orbit to achieve the same goal. If you want specifics, I have too many spreadsheets. So it's a long conversation. All right, too many spreadsheets. Hang on, hang on. Too many spreadsheets. I'm gonna add that into my notes. Too many spreadsheets. Good, I have too many spreadsheets. So that's an offline conversation. I was gonna say, Dolly, this is something that you're really interested in. Have you ever heard of the Kilo Power project? Oh, very much. I modeled some of my work in developing my humanities children stuff, using the Kilo Power project as the starting place for, I know this can be done. Now, what would be the next few generations of that? AirVailHate may have the new comment for the show, which is, would it be six calendar years or six Boeing years? Oh no, calendar years. Ouch. Ouch. God, we're harsh. We're so harsh. Has Boeing exceeded the 2.71 Elon multiplier? I think they have. Is that really the multiplier for Elon? Is that a real number? I've been using E as the Elon multiplier 2.71 for a long time. By the way, that's 2.71781 repeating and I'm lying. Yeah, it's so easy to, you know, I'll just say it's easy to harp on Boeing, not having the information that they have or knowing how they got there. Like, it's not fair. It's not fair, but it's fun. Everyone harpset, everyone else is what we do. We're human, sorry. We are not punching down. The George Punt says they have Elon multiplied by the Elon multiplier. All right, all right. I think we're stalling it out. Thank you everyone for joining our show today. We are gonna continue our show in our membership stream kind of in a bit and I was taking notes during the show and the people that you see on the screen will be able to get into our membership stream either live or on demand after the fact. There we go. So yeah, you couldn't hear me because I wasn't part. Everyone was a part of that except for me. I was the only object not in the slates. That's hilarious. I was at least quiet. Yeah, yep, yep. I didn't know what was happening so I decided to stay. We could hear Dada, we could hear Dada clicking through the slates. Okay, so I'll just tell you what I was saying. You went live. Yeah, I was saying we're in our member stream which the people you saw on the screen they're able to get in the member stream. We're gonna try to talk about diverging alternate transport on planets such as trains and air balloons because I find that to be interesting. Dolly talked about can-do technology and then too many spreadsheets am I? So, oh hey, wait, you can hear me now, right? The only problem is, Dada, you need to, you need to mute your mic, Dada, because we can hear like back, there you go. There we go. Right now, hang on, we fixed it. Did we fix it for this show? We finally fixed it so that you can hear me. Did we? Nice. Everyone, hang on, in the chat room give me a thumbs up if you can actually- Oh, fine, it took us, what, three, four shows? We finally figured out the basics. We're professionals. Oh my God. We did it. And as an added bonus for all of our members you got your name in the show twice this week. Congratulations. So that's what we're gonna talk about. One of us has an Emmy in here. Oh no, no, no. One of us has two Emmys. More than two Emmys. Let's be clear, one of us has multiple Emmys. One you can put on the table, the second one you can put on the cabinet in the bathroom. Well, for a long time, for a long time they were, honestly they were, well, you know, we'll talk about the Emmys in the member stream, Emmy. I'll tell you where my Emmys went, that if you wanna know where my Emmys are, if you wanna know where my Emmys are, you're gonna have to join us in the member stream. And unfortunately with the new platform there is no way for us to automatically have the member stream be ready in advance. So what we need to do is we're gonna shut this show down, we're gonna build the member stream really quickly for those members, for those of you who are members and who wanna join us at any subscription level, even the one at a dollar per month is eligible for the membership show. Just go to youtube.com slash tmro and then you'll see a new member only stream pop up. Click on that, you can watch it live or on demand. Thank you very much everyone for joining us this week. I will be off once again next week, unfortunately I will be down at Cape Canaveral, I do not think I can join live. Hopefully I'll be back the following week. So Jared will be your host next week, did a phenomenal job last week. This is my long Minnesota goodbye. I just wanna basically keep Ryan waving for as long as humanly possible.