 Yeah Okay dear alumni dear students wherever in the world you are and of course dear other Interested audience very welcome in this second alumni seminar or online alumni seminar of UNESCO IHE My name is Martin Siebel. I'm moderating today this session Next to me you see already our guests Jovita Gupta, who will be the presenter Before we start the presentation and before I introduce Jovita I want to emphasize that if you have questions during the presentation and afterwards You can use your Twitter account as indicated on the screen the hashtag Alumni OS from online seminar and That question then will come up and they'll be distributed here Internal by a technical team behind us to pick out the most interesting questions to be passed on to Jovita Gupta Let me introduce Jovita First before she starts her presentation. Jovita is professor of environment and development in the global south at the Amsterdam Institute for social science research of the University of Amsterdam as Well, she is professor of at UNESCO IHE Institute for water education in itself here she leads the program group on governance and inclusive developments and She is editor-in-chief of yeah, and then there's a long list of journals Which I will not all repeat to you, but she does a lot of Editing in chief work. You can be very sure of that a very important feat to mention is that she was lead author in the international intergovernmental panel on climate change with one the 2007 Nobel Peace Prize with El Gore and of the Millennium Ecosystem assessment Which one deserved second price? She's co-chair of UNEP's global environmental outlook and is on the scientific steering committee of international programs and again, there's a very long list of Activities that she is involved in and I will not repeat that that Her CV is on our internet internet of UNESCO IHE and probably also of Amsterdam There you have all the food details so Jovita without Wasting too much more time. I would say wasting that would not be very nice, but spending more time on Details, I'm happy to give the word to you for your presentation Hello everybody today. I'm going to talk about sharing our water water justice issues in the context of the Anthropocene The Anthropocene is a new geological era during which humans have been Overusing the earth's resources next sheet Basically what I'm going to argue is that in this Anthropocene there is limited water for human use and Human use must stay within ecosystemic limits and this water ultimately needs to be shared between users and users but parts to present patterns of water ownership pricing and water pollution as Well as the impacts of climate change are exacerbating water related injustices at local through to global level next So my first question to you is at what administrative level should water be governed Now I quickly take over you're going to be invited to respond to this question using Kahoot Kahoot will appear on the screen in just a minute Go on your mobile and type in the browser Kahoot dot IT There you will see a question on the number that you need to type in in order to be connected to this particular little quiz You can move on You have to push it down a little bit because I am in the top on the right hand side You see the number that you have to put in as well You are invited to put in your name and maybe your country where you're from So go ahead Type in your browser kahoot dot IT and there we see the That we see the players already coming in massively very beautiful We see all the names we do not see countries yet max but be Mexico Colombia is there another max And well, we made maybe a few more minutes for a few more people to join in Kahoot dot IT and type in the number 7099 448 Okay, let's start with the first question that Joeita just asked and you're invited to Answer using your mobile phone where each of the potential answers is indicated by a color area on your phone So should water be governed a global level community level National level or at the multiple levels of government and The counter on the left you see picks away seconds. You have still 13 seconds left to answer the question and As soon as the counter is on zero you will see who have answered the question Time is up there. We see the answers So thank you everybody It's very interesting to note that you all a lot of you think that it should be governed at multiple levels of governance However, there are still some of you who think it should be governed only at community level or at national level or at another level If I move to my next sheet what you will find is that through history They're running water Early on the governance took place through Next sheet Early on the governance was through Civilizations then religious processes tried to govern so you had Hindu water law you had Islamic water law Then through conquest or colonization water law moved to different parts of the world Communism gave a new type of water law and then as you find that time moves on to the current century We are now being influenced by globalization and with that the spatial scale of governing water has gone from local All the way to global But this doesn't mean that you only govern at global level It means that you need to govern at all the levels simultaneously make sheet I'm going to first look at the topic of water supply being less than demand and the issue of conflict Then I'm going to talk about next That conflict is governed through fragmentation and then that if fragmentation is inevitable next Constitution is necessary All right. Now, let's go to water supply is less than next sheet then demand Next sheet here on this particular sheet what you see is there's a picture of the earth Then you can see a small blue ball That's all the earth's water including from the oceans Then there's a smaller ball and that shows all the earth's fresh water and then there's an even Tiny a little ball which shows the fresh water in our lakes and rivers and this is a visualization of How much water there is on earth? It's not that much next sheet So if we have a limited amount of water on earth This could be referred to as an water environmental utilization of space or water equal space The question is which rules should govern this next sheet So now my question to you is how should we see or frame water? You're again going to get a question on cargo So the question is how should we deal with water and you're going to have again four options to choose from As a gift of God that cannot be priced or second as an issue managed in line with own values third as a heritage that has to be governed in the public interest and Force as a commodity Bottle the pipes making sellers richer Which of the ones you want to choose? Two more seconds left and there you see how you have answered this particular question And now you see that most of you think that it should be seen as a heritage that has to be governed in the public interest But some of you also think that maybe it is important to treat it like a commodity Some of you think that it should be an issue that is managed with your own values and That every person's value can have a different Dimension to water governance and some of you also see it as a gift of God that cannot be priced All these answers are in a sense correct answers But the question is can we make the right choice and through this lecture? I'm going to try and tell you what my choice is and I'm quite curious to see what your choice will be subsequently next sheet So I'm arguing now that if you have on the x-axis Time and on the y-axis land and freshwater then these two resources are more or less fixed next And what you're finding is with rising population and demand it keeps next it keeps growing Once more and so that basically means that our demand for fresh water resources is higher than what is available next and This means that we need to start sharing especially also If we want to take into account the unlimited Ecosystems services that our existing water can give us if it is sustainably managed next So what you see is water gives us supporting services because they cycle nutrients. They next they give us a Food water fish provisioning services next they regulate our climate and our floods Of course, they provide us cultural services. So this is the good news that if you manage it properly We will get all these services continuously into the future and free of cost next the bad news is next That we are crossing planetary boundaries. We're using one and a half times our earth annually next and as you can see Next Worldwide fund for nature says we're using more than we have available on earth next So now I'm going to move to my next argument Which is that this conflict because water supply is less than demand is essentially governed through fragmentation and Pragmentation means that there are many many different ways of governing. So the first next Next choice is that people say, okay, if you have a little amount of water, let's price it Let's use markets that the markets distribute it. This is your neoliberal capitalist approach to water governance next What you find over here is my next question to you, which is how should we price water? And there we turn again to our Kahoot game where you can again give your view on how we price water Or what it should be priced and Again, you're gonna have four options Which you can see in just a little minute at a price of cleaning the water or At the monopoly price if the water is owned by a monopoly at market price based on the mountain supply Order the price that allows maintaining its ecosystem services and again 15 seconds left In order to put in your answer and then we see what the total answers So you're all very much up to date because you want a price that allows maintenance of the ecosystem services But you realize that if you have such a price that possibly people can't afford it So there is a clash between our understanding of how we should value water, but also where the water is affordable Next sheet Actually, if you look at various international Processes we find that today we have a large number of water service contracts Dealing with water basically privatizing water Also, damn financing leads to people having control over the dam and who gets access to irrigation water and under what? Circumstances and for what prices but even contracts on biofuel or mining will affect water biofuel contracts will lead to extraction of water Mining contracts will lead to extraction as well as pollution of water So what you're finding is that there's a whole world of contracts that are now intervening in this water area Which may be not so beneficial for water itself next sheet I'm going to give you two examples of cases one case is happening in India right now. It's coca-cola buying Land in India to put water from the ground water into their coca-cola bottles Apparently me they need about four liters of water for one liter of coke and they also have a lot of pollution But as a result of which the local people can't get any water So there's this whole discussion taking place within the court systems in India and they have still not finished this case Because they don't know what to do with it But it's not just happening in a developing country like India. It's also happening in the United States Here we see Nestle that goes to the United States and buys land or Property there and then puts the water into water bottles And of course as a result that you also get a lot of plastic waste But you also get less water for local communities So how are we going to deal with this? Are we going to allow people to continuously raise resources? From the ground water system and put it into bottles and pipes or do we find a different way to manage our water next sheet? In fact, it's getting very worrying because what we are now seeing is just simply bottled water is Growing so fast that there's so much money to be made in it But the privatization of the sector is going to be a big problem for those of us who would like to govern water in accordance with ecosystem services, which is what most of you would like to do next sheet and Of course, we just don't drink water. We have water in milk water in coffee water in oranges water in apples wine and even Hamburgers and you can see how much water is required for all these different products next sheet And then of course you have the problem of when municipalities would like to get access to water So here is the case of kocha Bamba kocha Bamba did not have enough water. So they wanted to Invite multinationals in and they asked the International Monetary Fund for a loan and the monetary fund said Okay, we'll give you the money but as long as you privatize water Next sheet and as a result of that entire process The foreign company came in the price of water went up and people went on to the streets and there was a huge protest against this process and Finally, there had to be a court case in New York Bechtel versus Bolivia The good thing about this story is ultimately the company paid Was only paid a very small amount in symbolic damages because it leaked out to the press and everybody got very upset but technically speaking contracts are secret and arbitration on contracts is secret So most of us don't even know how much water is being promised away when such contracts are made and even when there is a Problem with the state. We don't know what has been decided because the court cases are secret next So the first choice was using a neoliberal capitalist approach The following choice is using a hegemonic approach in a hegemonic approach the state decides How it's going to share the water the state basically says I own the water and this brings me to how do the states next sheet do it? So in bilateral treaties, you find that sometimes countries say we own the water and we can prove it based on a bilateral treaty And they're not going to share the water with others Alternately alternatively countries will say even if there's no bilateral treaty We own this water and because we desperately need this water We're not willing to share it equitably or take responsibility next sheet So my question to you is who should own water? And we go for the last question to our Kahoot game where you can again ventilate your opinion for answers landowners level provincial level city level national level Roughly 20 seconds left to Put in your answer Okay So I didn't give you the choice that perhaps no one should be allowed to own the water But within the choices you've got now you see some of you a majority of you choose for national level some of you choose a city level some of you choose a provincial and very few of you choose at land owners level But in fact in the bulk of the world Water is owned by the land owner and in some parts of the world States claim that they own water next sheet So if you take the case of the Nile, then you'll find that next sheet in the Nile Next sheet we have agreements between Sudan and Egypt made during colonial times Where we find that Egypt is given the bulk of the water and Ethiopia is not given any water in that agreement And the question is why should Ethiopia be bound by that? Is this a legal possible a legal agreement or is it not? now International law would basically say yes, it's a legal agreement. It's not fair anymore, but it's still a legal agreement Similarly in the case of the Coca-Cola and the Nestle case that I've discussed with you earlier when they buy land They often get access to the groundwater as a result of it So what you're finding is that all rules and all laws of the past are still used today But this can create major problems in the future next sheet And of course, it's not only because of who owns the water But there's also a very strong link between water and economic growth For example through energy and you can see if the bulk of the world is using coal or nuclear power They need huge amounts of water. It's only if they go in for wind Perhaps they use very very little water So in fact if you need energy to drive the economic growth of your country, you need water So countries don't want to share next sheet And you also find from a different perspective that because of climate change or climate variability Today we have an increasing number of floods and droughts worldwide And this also has an impact on people's lives next sheet and The question is does this affect the economy of countries? Yes It's not just developing countries that suffer from this the United States Japan are also suffering heavily from these kinds of losses So we also need to look at the risks with respect to water next sheet In addition to capitalist approaches or stage-based approaches We also have polycentric approaches and polycentric approaches are let's get everybody in the world to participate In governing water and let them all do different things and I think this is a good idea But as I told you earlier, we don't have much water So we need to be very careful and my personal preference is for the fourth and last Which is basically trying to look for transformative governance multi-level governance Perhaps using the sustainable development goals as a starting point for this governance process next sheet So in my world, we would have rules and different kinds of rules and within these rules We would allow next We would allow within this this sustainable rules We'd allow a neoliberal process to function But the markets the pricing and the privatization will be subject to some Governance rules and the contracts and the arbitration and water would no longer be secret Next we would find that you would allow states to under manage their water resources But you would not allow them to Securitize it and say we are willing to go perhaps to war to fight for this You'd allow some kinds of limited sovereignty and of course Thirdly, we would allow polycentric actors to participate in the governance process But I think it's really important that we start thinking as a glow as to whether we are going to let people Put all the water from our rivers and our canals and our groundwater systems into bottles and pipes And that then we have lost control over the ecosystem services Perhaps the people who buy those bottles will have a monopoly control and these will be already problematic So next sheet my basic story is we have to start thinking about how do we ensure access? I come back to your answer to my earlier question, which is you said we must price water So that we take into account ecosystem services Yes but then what happens to those who cannot afford it and this brings me to the issue that perhaps we have to ensure that Everybody gets access to at least four forty liters of water per day for their survival and then we look at the risk distribution of water amongst other issues energy Agriculture industry transport etc. And then we need to look at how can we get better understanding of property rights with respect to water? state responsibility and risks So to end my presentation this morning I go to my last sheet and I think it's very important that We accept that there will be fragmentation because the world is very big and we need to have spaces for different solutions But at the same time I think we need to have some basic ideas That protect the human rights of people that protect the ecosystem services of water and that do not allow the continuous commodification of water and I think that should be part of a global constitution. So that was my message for today Thank you. Thank you very much Juita for your enthusiastic presentation about an extremely complex topic You're given a lot of information and insights and Developed a series approach on at what level water should be governed Maybe as a first question before we see if questions came in over Twitter What type of government should make the right decisions in order to Distribute the governance of water who should take decisions and say to a country Hey, the waters should be developed or governed in your country in this way in this country in this way And how should we work with international companies operating in various countries? So I think that the first thing to realize is that I'm not I Understand that we should allow governance which means we should allow a large number of actors in society to function But I think that if you do not have government and inter governmental agreements about water Then we will never be able to control the story about how we are going to manage water So for me government and investing in government is very very important in dealing with this resource secondly Why governments think world's why that they have control over their own water sources Actually, what we find is that inter governmental agreements on trade or on investment or on contracts made in completely different areas of governance is now actually Governing water and that's a real problem because those who think they're managing water are being bypassed By those who are making agreements on contract law or investment law or trade law So in some ways we have to have a way to link up water with trade investment Contracts at the intergovernmental level to bring it together and that's why I was talking about the Constitution So it shouldn't just be in the water domain, but across all the relevant domains Okay, but maybe a question and link to it and maybe a bit more direct at what level should this be Started this discussion on how to distribute to the governance of water Is that an issue for the United Nations or can be put certain maybe regional? Governments together like in the EU put an EU player role here saying inside EU We are going to do it like this inside the US. It has to be like this It's already happening inside the EU. You already see that there is a much clearer definition of how water is going to be governed In the United States, it's a little bit more complex because in the United States It's a federal state and each country can make its own rules and they each a province state can make its own rules and What you're finding is that you can never In the meanwhile, you'll find that every country is making its own rules But what ultimately you need is a debate between states and the intergovernmental level because you need the Collaboration between states and other states to come to a solution Nothing stops us in a region that has taken a first step in this area to move forward But what we need to realize is that the situation in the US and in Europe and maybe also in Australia Is very different from the situation in the developing world where lots of people cannot afford water Where pollution is going beyond manageable levels. So perhaps we need a different sort of governmental Regulatory system for those countries, which is also affordable for them Okay, moving on to that Would you suggest maybe five or six steps of government to start thinking and Legislation in a certain direction so that water governance becomes a more equal business for the poor anti-enterprises I think that the a key question today is are we going to allow Ownership of water and for how long and I think the fact is that people already own water So if you take away their ownership rights, you have to compensate them and that's not so easy But at least the discussion about who owns water should become something that all states have to engage in and start to discuss and The next part of the storyline is how do we price water and there also we need a discussion about it because you can't Change things overnight, but we need a process by which these two elements are made central in the Debate and discourse you can't force people to change things overnight So you have to but at least you have to start debating about in it talking about the pros and cons So for me, this is more important Let me answer the first question on Twitter Which is how to include the poor and disadvantaged people in this context where more powerful actors are involved Okay, so when you look at this one of the big things that you find is that if you transfer ownership of water To those who have large land ownership or to large multinationals Then you're suddenly transferring the power over the water issue to either big multinationals or to international Business law investment law in which case your government will not even have any control So if you really want to include the poor and the disadvantaged in this context, you have to start changing the way Water is governed inside your country But very often you can't do that because of globalization and because globalization is allowed for Trade and investment in water. So you have to actually try and fight this at the international level I think the SDGs the Sustainable Development Goals and the framework of Goal number six gives us the possibility to do so and also the fact that the human right to water Has been adopted at the United Nations General Assembly and the Human Rights Council So you are seeing that through the rights-based approach. We might be able to tackle the role of the multinationals which essentially means that NGOs bringing people together and forcing and Developing a force would be a right tool to come to actually get water distributed fairly equally correct You have four agents of change the first agent is a leader at the top So you could for example think of the new secretary general trying to lead on this issue You can have policy entrepreneurs. These are people inside ministries who push these issues You can have social movements like Martin has put up that the social movements try to change the way people think And you can have epistemic communities or scientists who table these issues and give you the evidence in order to make your decisions Thank you very much for that answer to the first question from an alumnus in the Latin America And the second question is how can we stop contracts from being secrets? Now that is a million dollar question What has happened up till now is contracts are always secret because people don't want to give up their recipes So coca-cola's contract is secret because they don't want to let you know how to make coca-cola And that's how that in that contract is also all the details of how much water and pollution etc. Comes out of it Also, how much they paid for the land and so on so under contract law the entire storyline is secret The I think the way we want to move this forward is to say that when we are talking about things like water Which is a public good or should be seen as a public good Then we should have no secrets But the problem is suppose they say okay all water contracts are not secret, but biofuel contracts are secret then again you have no Solution because biofuel uses water in fact, I can't imagine any production process worldwide Not using water and that would mean that we want to open up all the contracts for all the production processes All the distribution processes and all the consumption processes perhaps And that's going to be a major battle. That's where we need Martin's social movements. I think so plus we need lots of time to do so Yeah, thank you very much for this question from I presume someone from Africa I'm happy to see that Twitter questions are entering. Please folks We are with 41 in the listing and keep it up Put as many questions forward as you like this is your chance to be part of this discussion and be move with that To the third question which is about ownership of water and whether transboundary water resources can be treated peacefully You know up till now the bulk of transboundary water resources have been managed more or less peacefully you cannot correlate transboundary conflict with water mostly people fight on Identity issues, but not on water issues Having said that in the context of the Anthropocene if there is really a shortage of water and we need water for every Single production process plus for creating the energy in society You can imagine that countries will see that water Leads to growth so the more water you have the more economic growth You have and that will make them more and more unwilling to share the water and This is going to lead to more stress along the boundaries I'm not saying war but I think it's going to lead to more stress and for this reason we have to stop thinking in terms of Sharing our water resources, but it's a different discourse than the discourse which says we must become More rich all the time we must have more and more GNP today There is a growth race worldwide But what we are suggesting over here is to slow down the growth risk race and to push for Well-being and to ensure that the ecosystem services of nature are maintained, but that's quite a novel idea It's not something that governments will accept easily And you very much again Joe Eta for this question from Suvash Tapa from Nepal and there may be even more questions coming but let me Put one in between if we talk about water management and keeping water clean then the oftentimes In my opinion sort of confused the fact that we need lots of water to pass it through in terms of the once through approach We use it. We make it dirty and it goes out. How about if from the international? Institutions we push much further to the Opportunity of keeping water as clean as possible and thus being able to Return water all the time continuously in order to make that bit of water that we have globally much and much Larger because we recycle non-stop. How does that come in? You can recycle if you can maintain the water, but what you should not do in my view is put the water into a pipe Use it put it back into a pipe clean it and put it back into the pipe Because if you keep it continuously inside the pipe, you're disturbing the ecosystem service of nature So essentially what you need to do is to clean up the water and return it to the ecosystem and then retake it up But I want to add a little anecdote to Martin's question because I hear now that fracking in the United States leads to dirty water So you recycle that water But after a point you can't recycle it So people are now getting dirty water which they put into their groundwater systems and they wait They are waiting for the price of water to go up before they will clean this water and again They're getting back into ownership of dirty water and monopolies of dirty water And I think those are not the ways to move ahead Which is possibly exactly the reason behind the present fighting in South Dakota Where they are fighting to keep an oil line out of their property because they feel exactly what Jovita is saying With good reasons. Unfortunately. We have lots of proof We move on to the fourth question. How can we integrate traditional and scientific knowledge for resilient water governance? Well, this is a very interesting question now the two parts to this question. I'd like to answer As you probably know in the intergovernmental panel on climate change We only allow scientific knowledge and we don't allow traditional knowledge in the intergovernmental Platform on biodiversity. We thought, okay, let's allow traditional knowledge But then how do you know when the traditional knowledge is just an old Old grandma's story which has no scientific basis or it is something which is does have scientific basis So separating out the good and the bad from the traditional stories is very important So you ultimately have to understand and analyze this knowledge But then this mix brings up a risk and the risk is that you take over the knowledge from the traditional people You put it through a laboratory over here And then you say it's now my knowledge and then you want to get paid for that knowledge that you created out of the knowledge It already existed that's a bit problematic But I think that it's very very important to try and link these issues together to the best of our ability But I and I but there are challenges as I mentioned just now And maybe as a little comment on that Joita One thing that we could learn from the older generations and the traditional knowledge is to be economical with water Something that we have globally gotten about absolutely Thank you Angela for this very fascinating question We can move on to the fifth question already Should we deal differently with these issues in urban versus the rural settings? And if so, why? Okay, I think there are two issues over here because the urban areas often Drink up the water from the rural areas So what you find is that because people in the cities are richer or the slums are more Problematic for the rich people in the cities They start to pump out the water from the rural areas into the urban areas causing problems for the rural areas And I therefore think that the urban areas have a real response pretty back To the rural areas to try and make sure that there is a fair deal between the urban and the rural that's the first point Secondly, I think in the urban areas. There's probably more possibility for Taking drinking water supply, but not always developing sanitation issues And so the question is when they don't develop the sanitation aspects and delete they throw out dirty water This in fact pollutes the surrounding rural areas So I think urban areas need to be very careful about taking water and sanitation Together and make it an integrated storyline. I also there are many more issues, but I think I'm going to keep it there Since we are getting a whole list of new questions. It is it is flying in wonderful the next question from The annexes Probably in the nation What do you think about nexus approach to solve water problems and how to integrate the nexus water energy food environment In you the planning system in different level So the nexus approach is different from the integration approach because in the integration approach And I'm giving you a caricature is when you have the Ministry of environment water telling everybody else What they should do and that didn't work Because the Ministry of environment did not have the power and a mandate to govern the others Also for true integration, you need so much data and then you get a very beautiful result on your computer But it's not the same thing as trying to negotiate that with the people on the On the streets and as I told you earlier a lot of the water is owned by people and there's pricing of water And it's really difficult to take away that water and put into a model and say okay now We're going to do it differently the nexus approach allows us to do it slightly differently It allows us to look at small connections between water and different sectors of society and to see whether we can address those in Sectors individually, so you've got here for I gave you another one I did water and investment and water and private sector and for me the issue was how can we get the contracts changed? Or how can we get the pricing changed if you were to do water and energy? It would be maybe how can we move to wind energy which requires less water than coal which requires too much water If you're doing water and food you could say how can we go to a wheat rather than rice because rice requires more water So you can try and do it in small bits and pieces. It's not a total integration You're actually suggesting that an institute like UNESCO. I actually should not only focus on water But you'd have all these sites areas it connects to water which we probably to some extent to question number seven And that comes from an alumnus from Sudan Is it better to develop fairness concept in water share or equity? It doesn't matter whether you call it fairness or you call it equity But a friend of mine calls it access and allocation because he says it's less politically problematic People get allergic to a word like equity. They may be more willing to talk about fairness But I'm going to tell you a little story about a professor from a negotiator from the United States Who was a visiting professor with us some years ago and he said why should somebody who has worked very hard all his life and Earned a lot of money Suddenly give up his resources in that particular area because you did not work hard enough and did not make enough money So his idea of fairness was that it was not fair to Americans if the developing countries wanted something from America Because in fact they had worked hard and the developing countries had not so, you know fairness can be used in many many ways Thanks great answer to a great question and we move to the next one which I cannot exactly read from here water rights promote a Universalization notion can be conflicting with local distribution mechanisms. How to deal with this? Water rights in terms of human rights only promise you around 40 liters if at all so it's really only enough for your drinking water and cooking and That's all that they promise you It's not a larger amount in theory It doesn't mean that you have to get 40 liters as long as there's a local distribution mechanism That ensures that no one goes without water So that's not the problem a problem comes around when we talk about farming and farming rights or Mining and mining rights to water. So just the human rights to water is not an issue Thank you again. Do you wait for that answer and Compliments to all the guys putting in these questions and being part of the discussion. It starts flying really fast the next question That is no next question It's coming the question is coming. It is still flying somewhere between Africa and Europe or not exactly from mr. Mohan That's who dar can the realignment of political boundaries according to catchment boundaries resolve or Minimize the water governance issue Very good question very novel question. In fact between the Netherlands and Belgium We have now realigned our political boundaries to take into account the changing flows of the rivers and that was fairly easy to do Within the context of two countries that have enough water and that area was not occupied by people But it's a much more complicated issue, especially in the context of climate change with climate change You're going to see the river flows will change sea level will go up and you're going to find a lot more Changes into the actual boundary issues and boundary issues are Challenging for three reasons first is because of the places where people live So if you live in another in one country, you don't want to be moved to another country simply because the catchment boundary has changed Secondly it has to do with access to water and Thirdly it has to do with access to the resources within the water and things like fish or transport So what I'm trying to get at is that? Aligning the political boundaries is happening. So it's happened now between the Netherlands and Belgium It's also happened between India and Bangladesh But not in relation to catchments there in Indian Bangladesh But it is in in theory a very difficult issue to do and I'm not 100% sure that it can resolve or minimize water governance issues. It might create more equity problems Would realignment do it outweigh the chances of the opposite? The war scenarios of water between countries realignment can't solve the problem of shortage of water Clear answer, which is always the case if there are war situations. Thank you. We move to the next Question we do not move to the next question Okay Then we have a bit of time to finalize this first of all, Joe Eta, thank you so much for this Wonderful presentation and it's a very exciting topic Which I believe is in the heart of the for sure interest of our Institute and its alumni students and Hopefully an large population around it. Thanks for your enthusiasm in sharing your knowledge in this area What I can already tell you is that in 2017 and now I direct myself directly to those in the audience the larger population behind that they have in 2017 for online seminars on topics of general interest Like the particular one that we had today and the one that we had last month with Professor Hupkeisen from Zimbabwe The next presentation that we are planning is in March 2017 and Maria Laura our Alumni officer will announce in time again when the exact date is going to be and who will be the presenter and The format will be very similar like this where we After roughly half the time give it lots of time for you to jump in with questions and to be part of the seminar Last bit of least thank you for all that have contributed to making this and So Thank you to all of those that have made this seminar possible There's a whole army of people selecting questions and having the technology correctly as it was working today very well Thank you all and also. Thank you for those sitting in room a one of this particular Institute that have followed in the house This this seminar. Thank you