 This is Xiangyang Xun. This is the design show. I'm Mark Fontaine and in the service design show we help you to stay one step ahead by talking to the people that are shaping the service design field. We talk about the current state of the industry, exciting new developments and the challenges up ahead. My guest in this episode is Xing Zhangnang. Xing is the former dean of the School of Design at Zhangnang University in China and he has been honored with the highest award from IXDA called the Future Voice of Interaction Design in 2015. For the next 30 minutes or so we'll be discussing topics like what is the service and how our service is expressed. Finally we'll also touch upon what skills do service designers need. If you want to fast forward to one of these topics check out the episode guide in the description or just stick around and enjoy the whole episode. As you'll notice throughout the episode the internet connection between the Netherlands and China wasn't always perfect but eventually we managed to make a great episode for you. So without further ado let's jump right in. Welcome to the show Xing. Thank you. Great to have you here. It's really uh I said it a few times in the beginning it's really an honor to have you here and I'm really happy to have you again from China and from Asia I think we should know a lot more about design from that region and it's my really my pleasure to be on this show and thank you for putting together this show for the last 10 years. Well yeah the show isn't running that long that's uh that's how long the agency but let's hope the show will run for 10 years. I have a very interesting question for you and I'm really curious uh to to your story I ask this to everyone what is your very first encounter with service design? In terms of the encounter of service design that's the first time when I was a student at Carnegie Mellon University I was asked to join a project redesigning the post regulations for United States Postal Services. United Postal Services look at the name by definition it is services provided by government. There are many things for the government to support the smoothies and transactions of their services and one of the many things they relied on was the post regulations basically the law document. For many reasons the law document was immense a huge document over 1000 pages over thousands of thousands of regulations. Those documents were there to support people understanding the services provided and the pathways they may take in order to enjoy the services provided by post services. Unfortunately the post regulations from the very beginning over 200 years ago there were only two pages to nowadays over a thousand pages. The regulations were added and added accumulated but they were site they were organized in a very strange way by actually alphabetically. Arphabetically looking at the law document it does not does not align with this how people go through their own procedures in order to enjoy the services from the post services. So we were looking at that document and we shuffled all the regulations and we create the document law document based on different pathways of different groups of people and recreate this document based on their use experiences and that was really my first experience of software design and by creating the document that support how regular people from different parts of the states different kinds of people from everyday household to businesses probably may take advantage of post services. So this was back in the days when you were a student at Carnegie Mellon in 2002 and did the term service design was that used or was user experience design what kind of term were you using back then? At that time we were using the term interaction design and of course many people have different kinds of understandings what is an interaction and what is interaction design something just to make it simple for my audience sometimes I say to them their approach we do interaction design we call the broader sense of interaction it is not just about user interface it is actually about designing activities and then when we think talk about activities we have to think about who are participating in that activity what are the means to support the activity what are the progressions of activities etc. Right so I totally agree with you that currently a lot of discussions the perception of interaction design and user experience design is very much started to interface as well it's much much more than that. Yeah interface is really something to support the progression of actions. Yeah absolutely. You have provided me with some very interesting topics that I want to jump in with you as soon as possible so let's explain very briefly how our co-creation format works between the Netherlands and China. I have topics you sent me here on a paper and you also have a stack of papers right? Yes. Can you show them up? Do you have them there? Yes. You have some I call them question starters and these are your topics and I'll pick one of your questions and you'll pick a random question starter and have to answer the question that you created yourself. Yes. So let me go straight into well let's go straight into the very first topic and the question is the topic is how is a service expressed? Do we have a question starter that goes along with this one? Maybe how can we? So how can we now how would a question sound to you? How can we express a service? All right interesting what do you mean by expressing a service? Service even though many designers talk about this design surface design but the concept of surface design comes much earlier. Many people refer to Shostak in 1982 who created something so-called surface blueprints. That was really much an initiation within the discipline of management and the marketing and then later some designers especially in Europe they created something called a product and service systems. So when we talk about product and service systems the motivation for creating such an idea was really in many ways to minimize environmental harm by sharing resources and then in 1990s Pine and the Guillermo who wrote the book Experience Economy they talked about for instance companies such as IBM instead of selling their machines they provide services to use machines to help companies to make logistic decisions management decisions. So surface that is for more an academic background of surface design but if you look at the online and and many art talk to other people you may hear people talk about administrative surfaces, civil surfaces, customer surfaces, domestic surfaces. I personally get really puzzled what is a surface and how do we express a surface when we talk about transportation design or furniture design we know how to present a concept of a car, we know how to present a concept of a very tangible and service I really don't know how to express that in recently I'm puzzled or not only because I'm puzzled because what is a service without understanding what is a service it's impossible for me to express a service. Same time I'm puzzled because I hear so many people talk about their own experiences of designing surfaces they often as they present three things for instance business canvas customer journey and system map I am very glad to see those but to me those are ways to have designing surfaces they are not expressions they are not expressions because of surface and also you just mentioned about co-creation and many people do talk about co-creation as the important method for designing surfaces and actually co-creation is important as well for traditional product design we have to understand different expectations from different kinds of stakeholders inviting people from different aspects to come and join issue decisions those are very important part of understanding different people. A service I think co-creation has a very different meaning in surface design for instance yes the surface design in the planning of service we can invite service provider and service receiver to join the process of designing a planning but also when service is delivered it's delivered yeah it is without that the moment of delivery without the moment of interaction between provider and the receiver there isn't a service exactly so that's a co-creation. So because I'm really curious to that expression part because that is really the hard part with services they are intangible and clients find that really tough as as you go in maybe with the postal service you go in and you are going to say we're going to improve your service it's really hard to imagine what the end result will be. Yes, yes, yes and all that tell you the truth I'm still a partner that I think one thing I hope my personal contribution to my own students my own business partner is to help them understand when to think when to ask what type of questions in order to be a good surface designer we have to really ask a question the expression of a service so So have you found some examples that you find inspiring or well maybe inspiring is the right word here of service expressions what are what are your favorite service expressions I don't know if we can if we can call it that but One thing I would let's say let's let me start from here when I look at a service I'm looking at a platform that allows service to be carried forward I'm looking at different kinds of agencies at different touch points that support human interaction at that particular moment of course I'm looking for interaction I'm also looking for takeaways takeaways is when the service is accomplished by traditional management concern and some people are very happy they get wonderful memory even though the service has been completed that particular interesting memory would really allow people to reflect back and also allow them to think forward so I'm looking at platform agency interaction and takeaways my wonderful service expression personally when I'm being served is really about the interaction part between human and human rather than the agency's agency is wonderful is very important that's why I sometimes I choose to stay a five star hotel hotel rather than four star hotel yeah and but really makes expression so much more meaningful enjoying for is really the human interaction aspect so the yes so maybe and this is of course dear to your heart the interaction part when in services might be the very most important expression of a service yes the relationship between people that are delivering the service and providing consuming the service yes yes yes all right um are you ready to move on to a second topic yes and it all relates and all overlaps so we'll see if we can add something to the discussion and I'll leave one topic for the end but let's let's try this as a second topic this is called types of skills do you have a question starter that goes along with this topic maybe how much and how much what in this case how much how much how much how much skills do do service designers need how many skills not how much how many skills to service designers need and good enough to begin with uh I in my personal education experience when I supervise students on service design one thing I do uh worry very much about make sure they understand as I said the human interaction so interaction design which very much connect to uh psychology sociology cognitive psychology of course those are readings they have to do in terms of skills especially goes back to expression this year should be able to uh do good videos uh they still have to good video editing skills because service is something delivered uh you know in a time-based event so they have to be able to use storyboards video editing very well they should be able to understand the basic uh concept of businesses this is what this is why they use the approach so-called business canvas right so yeah so storyboarding store storyboard video editing and business concerns basic management skills and also when we talk about delivering of service we need platform and agencies those agencies could be tangible could be in material applications they still have to have all sorts of traditional design design skills uh of course no one can acquire all the skills in the very uh and not everyone will be the craftsman right but at least they should have should be good at something especially in creating agencies when they talk about agencies for instance if you think about the surface for patients patients from they began to feel sick to the whole recovery before they recovered they have to go through so many different steps and of course there's so many different touch points for instance at this stage of registering register there may be wayfinding there may be information presentations there may be kiosks so those all require designers to be able to you know so so well but that's also again your uh you were a long time part of a university and still are and that makes it really hard I can imagine for students to look at themselves and think what am I good at uh because I have to know something about sociology psychology I have to understand how storyboarding works what is my added value that that's that's really different compared to traditional design where you can say you know I'm really a good graphic artist here look at this that's why we are trying traditionally we have a few majors industrial design visual communication design and even interaction design and now surface design or broad sense of interaction design where creating some people call coordinators right people yeah coordinate skill is very important for surface and also goes back to the point you mentioned but co-creation that really requires a skill of coordination and also yeah that's that's also the changing role of designers of course that a lot of people I've been talking about the the designer becoming the facilitator of the process instead of the man next to the maker maybe is that something that you think is that the kind of skill coordinating facilitating that's that's one thing for surface design but one thing I would like to mention we are still we still need different kinds of designers there are certainly career pathways for certain people to become a facilitator there are still so many career spaces for people to be very good at some making of something yeah so you have to you have to actually as a student look at yourself and think what do I want to be yes yes it's it's up to it's up to you you don't you don't have to become a service designer no certainly no and in the last five years as my dean's position I've created a new program for the school which is called experimental program of integrated innovation I have to call experimental not because I don't trust things we teach things we believe but in the Chinese educational context the major is not really prescribed for the majors has to be named by ministry of education so there's no such a thing called in integrated innovation so I have to call experimental program of integrated innovation so that program our goal is nurturing students who are capable capable of defining products and services and be very good to be a very good team player right and also facilitator yeah so that's what and also they have to do the third skill they have to do is provide holistic solutions holistic solution is solution that requires systems thinking it requires understanding of platform different kinds of agencies etc etc right so this does really make it a different design discipline compared to well that the design disciplines that we've known for over the last hundred years it is significantly different yes yeah and there's no way for us to not to put enough attention understanding what are the future landscape of design education some people are very comfortable with traditional disciplines within design but if you look at the boom of it industry and surfaces social media they also require people who can support the live design and plan planning design and deliver over their product and services and none of the traditional design disciplines were prepared and were given enough skills long students to do those things so yeah absolutely let's let's move on to the to the third topic and final topic that we have here and we sort of already touched upon it and I especially kept it for the end because this is a more philosophical topic I'd say and this is called what is the service and actually we already have the question starter on this paper so what is a service for you I tell you the truth I checked online I look at the dictionary today just for this show even I had for many years when I talk about service what is a service the sentence I give to my students is activities or tasks performed in favor of others through sharing of resources time expertise and so on so this is something you say you say to your students but what do you say to the average man on the street to average man on the street service is you have someone else to do your own tasks if you are lazy enough you don't want to work you go to the restaurant if you are lazy enough don't want to make a coffee you go to a coffee shop right and why why is this question why is this keeping you busy do you mean keep me busy thinking what is a service yes why why is this a topic that that you find important without understanding what is a service I really don't know how to teach surface design I don't know how to ask students to present a concept of service so when that also when that say surface is a task activities performed in favor of others through sharing the resources as I mentioned the the example of going to a coffee shop you don't want to make coffee by yourself you are looking for resources for instance time you have to go to a hospital because you don't have expertise of medical expertise in order to make recovery decisions that's why you rely on other people yeah so and concerning this question I understand that you you're trying to better understand what makes up a service what is for you the biggest question that is still around this question so what is a service what is the question within this question the attributes elements of a service by understanding elements of a service then we may be able to develop a certain judging criteria and principles for evaluating for evaluating effective of a service and based on different kinds of surface experiences and different approaches from show stack and pss experience economy soft economy there may be principles for instance efficiency as very important principle effectiveness and meaningful but of course they all go to different they are there for different reasons efficiency for many reasons for logistics management effectiveness we can look at the still overlap between logistics management also the human interaction meaningful really goes into the human interaction and also what what are the takeaways my question is I'm curious why do you look for inspiration through unraveling this this puzzle of what is a service for looking for inspiration as a professor I'm looking for inspiration certainly by reading set second layer I'm looking at what I call greater social needs surfaces are driven by important social needs people are need their tasks to be performed by others they need support from other people from organizations so if I go there to really look so could the greater social trends that would help me greatly understand what are the surface opportunities for industry and also for my understanding philosophically I'm wrapping up this topic I want to ask you a question that probably you get every day multiple times and by students I'm really curious if someone approaches you and asks you Shin I want to get into service design well what would be your single most valuable tip for this person to be able to use use a center the human center approach effectively you have to learn to be interesting and good human being to begin with that and respect and empathy is very important well and that's a great tip but I can imagine some people look at you and think well they're very positive they are very positive in fact that is something I do I do that's how I answer my questions students and for the last five years I we have created a new slogan for the school responsible and respectable respectable and we have to you have to learn to be responsible in order to be a respect respectable designer and do you think do you think these are skills that you have to have intrinsically or are these things that we can learn ourselves we can develop I certainly believe those things can be nurtured and we have to provide a good education environment the students we are providing so educational services to students so we are constantly looking at how we can create the right social and a physical environment for a student to be able to understand the quality of human being the empathy of users in order for them to use the hands-on skills effectively in real social and the business context so we never pay play down any of the traditional hands-on skills but as I mentioned in order to make hands-on skills effectively we have to be a good to be a good human be a be a good human that's probably the best tip we've gotten so far on the show thank you and to sort of wrap it up I give all my guests the option the opportunity to ask a question to the people who are listening to this episode or watching this episode is there something that you would like to ask the viewers I think something ask my audience actually ask them to think and to help me think about the co the process of a co-creation what does it mean to be a service receiver or service provider in that moment of human human interaction what what are the things they're looking for especially as takeaways because takeaways is something that not really discussed enough in as an element or an attribute of a service so I'm very curious about as a service receiver what can you contribute to the service in order to make this service a good memory and also to make it to provide the ability to provide a better service next time wow so you're turning the tables around and thinking what can I produce as a service consumer the person who is actually receiving the service yes great question I'm really curious what people will say so that this is all the time that we have for this episode I wish we could continue much longer but this is all for this episode thank you for making the time and being part of the service design show sing thank you again for thank you again for inviting me it's my pleasure and sorry for all the technological breakdowns we'll fix that in post-production and nobody will notice so thank you again thank you what are your thoughts about the topics we've just discussed with sing what can you produce as a service consumer let us know down below in the comments if you enjoyed this episode and like to see more interviews with service design pioneers be sure to subscribe to the channel and check out some of the past episodes with the service design show we help you to stay one step ahead by talking to the people that are shaping the service design field for now thanks for watching and see you in the next episode