 Podcasters round table round one hundred and two We're back. Of course if you're getting this in the archive, you never missed us, but yeah, we're back at 102 Climbing towards 200 baby steps, but I'm excited tonight because I didn't pick the topic So I'm expecting to do less work, but you know, I always have plenty to say The title so what is the title the title is building on the success of your podcast I did pick the title so that may or may not reflect what Daniel is thinking about But I think I think it is and you know the round table we start somewhere we go anywhere based off of that So whatever you think of round table is it's your job to just jump in interruption is fine and Yeah, I hope everyone at home watching as a beverage of their liking and Brandon welcome to your first round table Yeah, thanks for having me. I this is exciting very cool. What's your show? I am the co-host of the Seahawkers podcast, which is a Seattle Seahawks fan podcast Okay, so in the pre-show you said there I'm already interrupting and the pre-show you said you grew up in Montana So you just you don't have a choice? Are you Seattle's as close as it gets is that how that happens? Well, I also I grew up in about third grade moved out to Seattle and from about third through Six seventh grade I was out in the Seattle area So my first football game experience was going to a Seattle Seahawks game. All right, so that's legit You can it was still would have been legit because you don't have they don't have an NFL team It's Seattle. It's Minnesota Green Bay. That's about the four that I think Montana's tend to gravitate towards very cool. All right, and we'll just go down the line cause Daniel welcome back Thank you co-hosts of podcasters round table and host of the audacity to podcast Now with less fat now with less fat Yes, that's a gluten-free low carb. It was always those things don't you love that and it was before the graze. All right Dave Jackson, uh What are you like got non saturated chlorophylls? Dave Jackson school of podcasting not just for breakfast anymore. How's that? I like the neighbor the school of podcasting is there There you go. Why reinvent the wheel just go with something that works. It's still somebody else's slogan. Yeah steal it That is I think the way The way apps do it these days, right? Instagram just take snapchat and vice versa, right and boom You're rich Dave figure out how to be rich in podcasting. All right. I like it. All right, and Stuart Welcome to your first round table. Yes, Aloha. Thanks for having me. I'm Stuart Yoshida host of the uptown podcast Well, we talk about all things ukulele. I don't eat my ukulele, but I do play it What I so I guess the joke is lost on me. What do you mean? You don't eat it Was because you're talking about all the foods, you know, okay? All right. Well, it doesn't make a great tagline Yeah, I know I definitely want to know more. So that's you know, I'm gonna press play All right. Yeah, well, I know I don't think he's both been on the list for a while And if you want to get on that list podcasters round table comm slash Guest to sign up so you can join us on a future round table and so glad to finally Get you guys on. All right. So that's where I think I end because Daniel since it's his topic He's going to be that proverbial diving board He's gonna tell you what we're going to what we're gonna start with here and then we're just gonna go off of that Here's what I was thinking We all have podcasts and probably all of us would consider a particular podcast as being our primary show and That's where we put the majority of our effort are planning our marketing our promotion is to grow that one show and For some reason that's probably because That's where you see the greatest return on your investment whether that's monetarily or something else So what I'm thinking is not the question of if you could launch a podcast today What would you do differently? But the as kind of similar question if you were going to launch a new podcast That would be your new primary show that this is what you want to invest everything into What would you do to make that show a success? How would you leverage the platform you've already built the reputation you've already built the audience you've already built What would you do in order to ensure the success of that new podcast and this is beyond like Oh, let's do a magical launch and show up and new and noteworthy beyond that I mean if you do this well, but you'll probably show up and new and noteworthy anyway because you'll be new and noteworthy, but What would you do? For that new launch to make that new podcast since you want that new thing to be your number one priority And you're now going to invest all of your time energy marketing or the majority of it into making that new show Your big profit or yeah, however you define profit. What would you do? Yeah, so when I titled this building on the success of your podcast You know, that's very specific and I think we hopefully can go an hour But this is also titles a little more broad, but I'm curious If steward or brandon if you ever thought, you know, you have your one podcast you've built a successful show Whatever success means you're still going that success in my book. I don't care if a hundred or a hundred thousand are listening You're still going so congrats Have you thought about doing another show either Completely different. I think with brandon when I kind of on the email. I said maybe A broad NFL show, right? So you're building on the success of that podcast, right? And then Daniel's thinking what would you do? You know to sort of leverage the podcast that you've already built the platform You've brought an audience without sort of being Daniel mentioned this in the write-up the bait and switch like I'm going to You know, I got success here And I'm just going to like throw it something else down the feed And try to trick you in listening to this new podcast But first of all, have either of you thought about building anything else You might have more than the one podcast that we've heard about Yeah, actually, I'd like to take it a step back from this because I I like to think about what we're doing right now my co-host and I we tend to we have a football show But we throw a lot of non football topics in it. So if I'm thinking that I'm going to do this in the future I would start maybe maybe working some of that stuff into your current show if you can Because we have some regular segments on our show where we where we usually talk football But we weave anything in from from science to what I like to call alt-middle politics Some media analysis conspiracy theories So those are all things that interest us within our current show And if we were going to Because we'd want to take something that we know we would be passionate about So and and pick one of those topics and and move forward with that I'm curious. Did you start off that way or did you just start off with the seattle seahawks podcast? Well, that's that's what we do. We we do about an hour and a half show The first hour dedicated entirely to football. That's what we talk about When did that start? When did you start throwing in content that wasn't that was different than just football? We're 175 episodes in and we probably started within the first 10 where we'd go off off topic So the audience it wasn't and it wasn't audience to lose probably that much not a ton I mean, do you just does anyone give you feedback like hey, we wish this was its own podcast We don't want it in this or just we'd want more of that It's fun for us. So if we get feedback that way then uh, you know, they they have the the whole first hour to listen to So, okay, so why not just spin off? Why not why not have a separate podcast just easier to produce it that way? We tried actually spinning out when you talked about a broader football podcast We we actually tried it because we do we like to do our picks each week where we pick each football game And so we thought well, why don't we just do this? as a broader show Well, we found out that just about A fraction of our audience listened to that show. It was the same people just a fraction of it So we went from that being its own separate show and now it's back to just a bonus show within our current show So, I mean that's interesting. I mean it's how Brandon is he's sort of leveraging his one podcast to bring another stuff He enjoyed Dave Yeah, I tried that once I um, I had put together the book more podcast money and created its own Um podcast to help promote the book And just kind of quit talking about monetization on the school podcasting and I announced Hey, if you want to hear monetization I've got a whole podcast dedicated to now And I got a few people that emailed me back and said I like both these shows I'm kind of annoyed that I now have to go to two places to get them Which in a way, it's kind of silly if you think oh, you have to do a subscribe and it comes to you But nonetheless, they're like, why are you making it harder for me? so I I then quit that and brought them back together but Um, it's an interesting concept. It's it's been done in tv. I mean if you look at you know back in the I guess it's the 80s at this point. I mean the jefferson's were a spinoff of archie bunker Work and Mindy was a spinoff of happy days. I really am dating myself Um, but that's you know, suv. I'm sure there's some sort of csv suv cross thing that that you know, uh companies and producers Introduce a character before they spin them off into another Dave you're single now, so you can date yourself It's you know, this isn't a comedy show, but You know, I try once a while. Hey, uh, stewart. What about you? Have you thought you got uke town? Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think I've thought about this And I thought about what kind of I'll call it a legacy that I want to leave behind So it's more of a broader thing I looked At the twit network that leo la port started. That's an amazing, you know Brand and network they started so I've One of the ideas I had and I'm still mulling it around is to start a ukulele network, you know to um Get more people more podcasters to talk about different type different aspects of ukulele because You know on my show, it's very general and broad, but uh, I get Um requests all the time. Hey, why don't you interview this person or that person? So, you know, I've done occasionally an interview, but but I love the the Panel format. So I don't really want to do that and people have also requested. Hey, can you, you know, maybe talk about Different techniques and why don't you feature artists and you know, so on and so forth So that's what I've been thinking about as well. I don't know if I can do it all myself But I would certainly love to start a ukulele network and to that end I've I've actually been advertising on my show I said hey if if people want to start their own ukulele podcast talk to me Let's let's see if we can figure it out and I did get one taker And he started his own podcast which really made me feel good. But then the question becomes, you know, do I want to Who mentioned that but you know now they have to there's not a single place to go to to get all of that You know, they have to I I advertise his podcast and he advertises mine probably but You know, if we had a network It would be kind of cool to have one place just kind of like twit network twit.tv where you go and there's like I don't know How many shows they have all related to technology, right? And I think it Pretty much started with Leo Laporte doing this week in tech Right, right and that effect Daniel, maybe we can we can talk about all inclusive feeds Which is something I haven't thought about for a long time, which I feel like was something We might have did more of back in the day back in the day Dave But um Daniel does any of this apply like what questions do you have? It is uh one thing I want to pull this in from Jeffrey Jerome in the chat room said What if the new subject is completely different than the current one hard to play off each other unless you are in pr and that's part of also what I want to throw into this is What if like Dave decides that he wants to do uh Seriously do the Alexa podcast and that be his number one new thing Or you know, someone else I want to do maybe I want to do a a business podcast or a marriage podcast or something completely different Let me ask you something though when you say There may be some confusion when you say Your new number one thing it does feel like you're pushing your other podcast into the background They're like, yeah, maybe I do that one but you're not I'm I know you're not saying that like you're not giving less attention to your your Podcasts that you already built right Well, okay, so this is all theoretical. That's the thing to just to be clear that as far as I know None of us are considering doing this kind of thing We'll talk about examples because we do have examples of people who've done this so um For example, um Michael Hyatt Just recently launched a new show. He had stopped podcasting for a couple years Even his last season or two of his normal podcast. This is your life was um a more untraditional style of podcasting But he's just launched a completely new thing and he's putting up in a lot of attention into his new show in this new effort And that's kind of what got me thinking along this line. So Yes, if something becomes your number one new thing that does mean Your previous number one thing will get less attention than it did before Well, maybe it's just up and running, you know, I I don't you don't not you're not talking about missing episodes Or something you're just saying You're gonna put more energy into launching this new thing. What would you do? So let me give you my opinion here. For example, kind of what I'm thinking with this If I were to start something completely new What for one thing? I would look at what am I doing in my life? How much time and margin do I have to do something new? If I want this new thing to be my number one priority It means that My other podcast the audacity to podcast which right now is my number one podcast priority It means that I would have to give less attention to that or maybe even consider Retiring that show And yeah, but you you have you have several shows. So that hasn't that wouldn't happen in your case I get what he's saying though, and I think that I think if you're seriously going to make it your number one show now, if you're not a full-time podcast If you're if you're more like me who I have enough time to focus to really be passionate about one thing And so if I all of a sudden decide I can't be passionate about football anymore I'm going to be passionate about I don't know I was a big he-man fan when I was a kid if they if they brought back he-man and all of a sudden I thought oh, you know what? I'm done with football. This is a great cartoon from my childhood Now now I'm going to do the he-man podcast And and if that's what I was passionate about that's what I'd go full-time You could still do that podcast because The target demo is like they're listening podcast or you could do one show all about that geico commercial where they did bring back So okay, so almost Daniel so it's theory we could be like I I have built this successful podcast. I actually have attention right. I have eaters, but I really want to do this other thing more Right. What would you do? All right. Well, I have it's funny that Daniel brought up the alexa cast I want to do more of those episodes And so one of my shows weekly web tools I've been doing it for close to 10 years and I've pretty much said all there is to say And and it's just I used to do really basic web design I don't do that anymore and so I my last episode was like I'm not pod fading But this is now on a I will do it when I find something cool to report it basis And I send my instead of spending two hours looking for a tool that was meh I'm now getting tons of information about the amazon echo and the amazon alexa now mine's going to wake up And I want to spend more in that I just I just see that as a growing industry Versus I'm just bored with this other one. So I am gonna exactly so that's not like my new number four In my case Right. So all right, so Daniel give us some idea of what you're thinking. What would you do? What's your first step? So what I would do recognizing that I could not have two number ones I would have to decide What to do with the other show that was previously number one either retire it or significantly Downplay it in my schedule and my priorities and focus But before I do that I would prepare my audience. I would make a plan for This launch and I I'm not talking about obsessing over your launch and such but make a plan for Launching by leveraging the platform. I already have so I would probably for my last several episodes If I end the other show for my last several episodes, I think I would Start to talk about the other podcast and say I'm launching this new thing. This is going to become my new priority. So Theoretically again the audacity podcast is coming to a close But I'm still going to be doing a few more episodes to wrap it up And tell you more along the way about this new podcast that's coming So I'd want to do everything I could to leverage the platform I already have the audience I already have To try to get them to shift over knowing that not all of them would come over to the new show But still trying to let them know this is my new number one podcast commitment I'd really love it if you would follow me over there like look at what the real brian did He shut down profitcast and then launched the real brian show because he was in that situation where he wanted to do That same thing. He wanted a new number one priority I'm pointing and if you've not seen the video raised frantically pointing down. He's pointing at What we're doing right now. This show is a perfect example. This became my number one that I had the podcaster studio Still has episodes put out once in a blue moon This one a lot more regular And this one became I would say more of a priority because This was the way I wanted to talk about podcasting I mean, it's fine to get on the mic And do a really a lot more structured show about podcasting But that's you know after a certain amount of episodes You're really digging right and daniel and dave know this. I mean you're working pretty hard To design those episodes every week whereas this Is more fun for me to be able to just throw out a topic and we talk about it. That's where I feel Uh, I feel the best so this show is a great example now I would not say that the podcaster studio audience It's clearly it is not this show still doesn't get as much as that show does for whatever reason Maybe people they they want less of a discussion. They want more how to Um, you know, I mean you aren't going to cram this show down their throats or down their ears Yeah, you know, I don't even know that you have anything I'm like, did I even try to leverage the audience enough once in a blue moon? I might mention it But it's like You don't follow me on social. It's clear that I have another show, but um Yeah, so this show is a great example now. I don't know at the time, you know, we just launched this show I there wasn't a lot behind it. The whole point was trying out google hangouts at that point And I had a show for it. I don't I didn't try too hard to leverage the audience I was actually trying to leverage A platform Someone else's platform right google hangouts and google plus at the time which google plus Works really well and I don't think we're very recovered from being able to easily connect with people On google plus, but um Stuart, you know, if you were going to spin out that network Or if you I mean you did you got another podcast to join but you it's not really under the umbrella of a network You guys want to start? That's that's where I would put my energy if I wanted to do this is to figure out The ins and outs of how do you create a network a podcast network and how would we structure it? I mean, there's there's all kinds of logistics, right? You know what do you do profit sharing? Do you? um Do you have a separate feed but uh coalesce it? You know, I mean, there's all kinds of questions and so Do you've got a new podcaster and you want to leverage? You help your audience discover his podcast because that's the why you're encouraging people I mean beyond just podcasting you want people to talk about ukulele. So of course there's crossover So how do you how do you expose your audience to the new show? You know, I mean, I'm just doing brute force right now is I I'll Mention his podcast and and I will be encouraging him to mention my podcast and um, you know I don't know if right now. I'm not going to put a permanent link For his podcast, but certainly I would want people to discover it So I don't you know, I think this is the the whole problem of time and energy and and where you put your priority Right because you're um, who was it daniel talking about, you know This becomes my number one priority because you only have so much time and energy You know and What I guess what I'm thinking again for that legacy question is that you know, if I can Maybe not necessarily myself, but but spawn off other shows To create a bigger legacy That would be great But it would also be nice if I could have the time and energy to actually create a cool network where You know have a ukulele network where there is, you know a half dozen shows about different aspects of the ukulele I mean that would be my dream But um Other than that The the next thing would be great to have, you know, this isn't zero sum. It's like we can grow this right we can Um, I may not be the only ukulele podcaster But if I get more people talking about it the legacy of the ukulele will will live on and and that would be cool too Well, you can do things I had steven genre on my ask the podcast coach show last weekend and he does the gunna geek network and all that is It's a network. That's a central location. Everybody has their own websites But they have one other website that has everybody's show on and everybody's information and subscribe buttons and things like that And that way and I think they promote That website at the beginning of the show And then from that point forward that everybody else promotes their own individual Pages and things like that. So a network can be as simple as that just a place to you know swap Kind of promos and kind of promote each other. I think they have these little intros where each host Will kind of say I'm so-and-so from the such-and-such show and you're about to listen to a such-and-such show on the gunna geek network And then they go into the regular show. So it's just it's just more of a cross promotional tool and then you can do things um, dino, I think that you have some sort of Business end to to the noodle network Yeah, noodle mix network does run like a business and if you're going to do a network I definitely recommend trying to run it like a business But yeah, what we do we have certain contracts and agreements and provide certain benefits to everyone on the network um, but the nice thing is that Like as far as the network from my perspective is I don't have to Manage those other shows even I don't I used to personally negotiate the sponsorships for each show And sponsorships would come and go because I wouldn't have the time to dedicate to that So now I've got Jessica Kufferman doing that. So I'm even more hands off with the individual shows and instead doing the the overarching structure and framework and Writing the powerful manifesto that I didn't get to use recently with a particular sponsor that we turned down But nonetheless that manifesto will show up somewhere online in case you're wondering about it That's the first step to a very deep dark future I'm putting my manifesto online. I don't know it just sounds or a very successful one I guess I don't usually hear that before pretty uh, the predecessor of success, but sure Well, while we're talking about networks, um, let's let's talk about the other side of networking not being a part of a network But the fact that now that we're veteran podcasters, right? Um, we've we've allowed ourselves to network among other podcasters So we have that leverage where we may not have had it Initially, and so if if I were going to go out and launch a new podcast as my primary focus I now have all these connections to other people that I've met Throughout all the time that I've been podcasting now, but that's tricky like it is But what do you what do you ask of those people without being like, you know To me without putting making them feel like they have to do something for you Well, you have that that knowledge and that experience to to build off of where they've made mistakes where you could start and Because I mean, I know if I'm gonna start over I'm focusing all my attention on to get in getting into new and noteworthy Because I know that's that's so critically important. Oh, yeah, and if I don't then I can just blow it up and go back to my regular show exactly Dave crap Oh, I put that I said that just for you Dave. Yeah I listened to a podcast today that they explained how they spent lots of time doing promo swaps Or review swaps and then it was just everything that I just I was exactly I needed a bucket by the end of it Um, Emily has a great uh from the story behind podcast has a great point in the chat room She says she kept her audience On social media was up to date as she could and also put out a final episode of her classic little podcast with a preview Of her new show, which is kind of what startup does a lot of these npr shows They'll just stick a whole new episode down like you tune in for show a and you get show z and you're like I what? Um, but she says it gave them some closure on on for her audience that way, right? That's a little put that in the gray hat category, right? Then like putting other content into your your your feed that people said oh, I want what comes down this feed Oh, I didn't sign up for this show. What are you doing? Right? So I think it's not too much of a gray hat if you explain it And if you're giving them a taste of the new thing and it's not something you do constantly like if you were launching a new show every single week then it might be obsessive But if you're you're doing a bigger campaign in a sense And that's how you have to look at it I think but you're doing this campaign to launch this new show Maybe you're giving them a five minute sample or maybe it's even smaller than that a three minute two minutes sample of this new podcast and you tell them this is a new show we're launching I want to give you a preview and then you give them the best two minutes you can find That will make them feel like I have to go check out that new show So what about I think because I feel like gimlet has done this but they put it at the end of an episode It's not just like something shows up in your feed and it's just a preview, right? Or so maybe if you have a regular episode and you're like hey at stay tuned at the end We're gonna preview our new show, you know, I don't know if you guys like that one better I think startup is play they'll do that They'll have like a little baby episode and then they'll play the whole episode Of that and that's where I'm like I they did that for a while where they were launching a bunch of shows And it was like Okay, let's rename this the gimlet preview channel because that's You're a good example because that show was like lightning in a bottle Like they did not plan for that to happen That show became super successful and they were able to literally build A million dollar network on top of that success and and that's what they did they kept cramming New shows they're like well, we need more shows we're building a network And they kept putting them down that one successful pipe So I think part of that though is also because they didn't have any content On startup so it's not like they could just tack it on to the end of an episode They didn't have episodes for that big portion of time on startup before they completely redid the show So it made sense to do a special promo episode, but otherwise I feel like Unless your new show Is taking over I feel like Doing a promo at the end or at some point within a normal episode of that first show Is the better way so that you're not You're not tricking your audience into thinking. Oh, yeah, a new episode of my favorite podcast. Oh bummer. It's just a promo for another podcast So one of my favorite examples I say recently what you'll see is Like for me, I do a lot of tech camera and audio av reviews on youtube successful channel what I would call successful and I've built an audience and they know me over hundreds of videos right so A vlog might be a logical next step because In the beginning if you just start off as a vlogger, no one knows you Why do they want to follow your daily life right? They have no interest and this kind of goes the same with social People might follow you on social because they know you and they're interested in kind of what you do On a more daily basis or a little behind the scenes look so For me, you know, I could start a vlog because I have those eyeballs and then how would I leverage? You know that audience that I've built how do I get them to come over to sort of A different brand which is at that point me a personal brand So, I mean if any of you wanted to build, you know, if you're gonna do that, you know Like this stewart show or the brand and show right you've you've you know You might have a segment of your audience who who wants that they want more of they want more of you I mean part of the reason they stick around is because they like the hosts, right? So I think I see a lot of Uh, a lot of youtubers doing this with vlog format, which is interesting One of the frustrations I have looking back at my history in podcasting is starting multiple podcasts Although I think I learned priceless lessons by doing that When I look at Something like the ramen noodle my clean comedy podcast. That's the first podcast I started back in 2007 And when I attend conferences or heal people speak, I realize that it could be so much better of a podcast It's currently on an indefinite hiatus But it could be so much better This could be the number one clean comedy podcast that when people think about clean comedy They think about this podcast and everyone thinks about it and it gets written up in those lists of top comedy podcasts and boom There's this one and only clean podcast in their list. I know it could be that but for me to make it that Would mean being extremely aggressive with My work schedule on it It means putting aside a whole lot of other stuff that I have because I only have so many resources that I can a lot To things time money attention energy all of that So it means putting aside a lot of other stuff to focus on that one thing to make that a huge success and I wish looking back I wish that that had been my approach for any podcast that I do that it be the one thing The one podcast that is that I do Like even right now with once upon a time and it's spin-off otherwise known as the seventh season I so desperately want that tv show to end because I want to stop doing the podcast so that I can invest that time elsewhere and it's not like one of those things like I hate doing the podcast It's just I want my time back so I can invest it Just stop doing the podcast. Yeah So god legal you won't be arrested. I mean the audience might not be happy but I made a commitment To my audience to see the show through to the end I think it's hard to leave behind something You know once you start it and it becomes kind of like a child or something That's why all our podcasts that don't have stuff in the feed anymore are on temporary hiatus or permanent Like there's always the plan it might come back It just might I'll do one more episode. I have shows like that Yeah, I have I have an episode I My one for musicians I did part one of an interview and part two is still there. It's been two years It's it was just sad because nobody went where's part two And that's when I realized that that audience had sailed a long time ago But I still that was my very first podcast and to kill that one I think would be that's going to be a mentally tough one to to do Well, I think you know killing it is Is more about I don't know just you don't have to kill it per se. It still exists, right? Because like there's this one podcast that was one of my inspirations called you cast and and They did like over 400 episodes. It's still on the internet. So the the owner or whoever did that The co-host I had on my show just recently Um, you know, it still exists and which is great because you know years and years from now, right? We can still go and find these things and so we we're creating this kind of cool legacy um, so I don't know But I Daniel keeps coming back to what I keep thinking about is like gosh We only have so much time and energy. How do we pick the thing we want to do next, right? And I guess, you know, one of the cool things to try what you guys are already talking about Is you just do these things and and by chance, you know Or design one of them becomes more successful and you go, hey, maybe I'll just switch to that and focus on that Because it's hard to really understand what's going to work and what's not. I mean, I'm not I'm not a Mentalist and no, oh, yes, that's going to be the next big thing I would love to figure that out, but I can't well for me I mean, it has to be what are your goals? What do you define as success? And you know, I would think with a podcast, you know, I've talked about this a million times You have to you have to love it In order to show up every week. I guess you don't but come on. We're talking about quality of life This isn't supposed especially if it's not your job Like this is for most people a hobby. I hope you show up and you enjoy it, right? So um, you know, what is success, you know, what is I don't know stew or what do you What would you consider success? And we did this this was like round two or something on those or What would you consider success for a podcast that you have your point? Yeah, my podcast, you know Some some of it is numbers, which is cool. Um, but But more about it is when I get feedback, you know, and and people say I enjoy it and I'd like to hear this Or you'll love the podcast, you know, to me that's success Um, and secondarily would be just the numbers, you know, I'm I think numbers are Are are cool to see Kind of the growth from podcasts to podcasts. Am I doing something right or not, you know, and And to me that's the only thing you'd measure against yourself. Am I doing better year to year? I measure success because When I first started out, um, I I was spotty, right? I didn't do it every month because I don't have enough time And then one year I said, um, my goal is to do it every month and then once I set that goal I was more consistent and I and I think that also spurred on numbers and then more people started contacting me and I got more interaction and to me that was success Um, I would love to, you know, have so many people on patreon. By the way patreon.com slash uke town. Okay, twn for those interested It would love to be one of those shows on patreon where They got so many People to sign up. They're like, hey, I quit my job and now this is my full-time job. Wow. That's incredible. You know, but, um I don't know if that's going to happen to me So yeah, I mean a lot of podcasters that I mean, that's why they show up every week because they absolutely love it So if you could actually make That your job It would you know, blow people most people out of water but like of course I want to do that, right? So brandon, what's success for? Your podcast. Yeah, I'm glad we're taking this away from the idea of the audience eyes has to be the success in this and and why you would Potentially launch a new podcast because it might you might be launching a new podcast for a completely different reason You might have great numbers But maybe you want to focus on this very one particular segment Because that's what you're most passionate about and and you've done the the other show long enough to where you realize Okay, my my passion isn't here anymore. It's over here And and now it's now this is the time to focus on that And and that's why I think the the goal really has to be passion fun and if Because we're talking about this being your hobby That that's really where it goes for me And then if it happens to get a great audience then great If it happens to bring in the the patreon stuff too, that's really cool but It's not the the main reason why you're doing it to for me to really feel successful for sure, I mean So yeah, I mean it all depends on how you define success. I hope that you want to show up Every day and have every week or whatever it is and that's that's why you're there. It has to be now numbers if you if you build something super successful and Again, what does that mean? You know 100,000 downloads or 4,000 whatever Whatever it means to you, but the higher the number it can be harder to let go at that point. I would say um, you know, have any of you guys built A big podcast, you know, Daniel, I know that once does really well And at some point it won't be there you laugh, but I don't I don't know why maybe it doesn't do well or something, but The most common response and I got this just recently Speaking to a group when I mentioned I didn't even ask for their opinion, but I mentioned I host a podcast about the tv show once upon a time And someone in the room just kind of muttered. Oh, yeah, I used to watch that show Well, that's the most common response I hear from people is yeah, I used to watch that show The audience for that podcast is significantly dying The the size that is is dying that the audience isn't literally dying like the audience is for newspapers and tv and radio boom We're all we're all dying a little bit every day, but yeah, so the audience is always dying, but so that podcast is now Uh less popular than the audacity to podcast My number one podcast that I host is the audacity to podcast both in focus and in audience size But it's not a huge audience unless I'm that every one of those people in a room right so Yeah, easier to let go when it's fading, but you know a number a show with good numbers. I think presents a challenge when you're saying I'd rather be doing this thing, but man this thing does so well I think it depends if it's your primary income because then that that has to take that factors in More that way, but numbers are just numbers I mean you may have the pressure from the audience members our show got to the point to where we We could not Not do a show in the off season. So it started out, you know football season great We can do our show week to week we can have the off season We can maybe get together once a month and and call it good But it got to the point where the numbers said where we had people going and you know I know there's not a whole lot to talk about but I really like to hear you know Whatever there is going on with the seahawks this week All right, and okay. Well if And you set the patreon goal it gets met and we're like, okay, we're in this and And it's still because you do get a lot more feedback in those times where there's not a lot to talk about that that can make it fun too Yeah, feedback is is huge. I always tell anytime ever I get any kind of positive feedback As I always say, thank you for putting gas in my tank because that's literally what it is. That's really to me. I think Podcasters run on on feedback. I mean money's fine and numbers are fine But when you get somebody who took the time to send a note, that's in my opinion, that's huge And beef jerky, Dave. We run off beef jerky and craze And red bull red bull. I don't eat or drink either one of those but Brandon I'll take a burrito by the way. I always will take a burrito. Yeah I have you Brandon, do you have any um, have you built a relationship with the seahawks themselves? I actually I had a relationship with them before my my podcast actually grew You know, we were talking about you know going from one platform to another I I was blogging about the seahawks I had a newsletter that I was putting out every week to A group of military people who that was their way to kind of keep in touch every week during the season Because when you're deployed and this was kind of before, you know, social media really blew up big and I was sending out a weekly newsletter just to kind of get people let people know what was going on with the team and and did that for a little while and that's and my The team they they liked what I was doing they and so started interacting with them And and then so when I decided to start doing the podcast It I still had that connection and and it has been helpful Now do they um, do they Like tweet out and say hey listen to brandon or something like that because that would be huge I would think yeah, it's not to that point, but um, we Yeah, we throw it out there because they don't have a well initially they didn't have a team specific podcast and they do now They they have they have a few actually, right? But now we purpose post game interviews or something. No, they have some dedicated stuff and It took them a while to do things like get into itunes, you know basic stuff, but um, I Now it's to the point where I've always told myself, you know, it's it's really cool to have that interaction with the team It's cool that but I I do want to keep this a hobby and to the point that If if this were a thing where they were telling me what I had to do week to week what I had to talk about week to week What they didn't didn't like about the show week to week then it wouldn't be fun anymore Then it would that the the passion I think would for it would decrease And so I consciously made a point to to not go that direction But what if your patreon blew up and all of a sudden, you know, like yeah One of the guys I had on the show, which is I love having so many people on the show is um, He's called the ukulele teacher John Atkins is last day. Anyway, he used to have another job, right? But he loved the ukulele and then um, he went on patreon and it blew up and he goes. Hey, I'm quitting my job He's like, whoa, that's awesome. Um, that would be cool. Now. I mean, what if that happened? What would you do? Oh, I'd be happy to quit my job My podcast we're gonna sustain me and then you know, I could tell the listeners Hey, instead of not knowing whether it'll come out on wednesday or thursday, you know, you're gonna get it on wednesday You won't have to worry about me having other things All right Which is interesting to me. I don't want to derail the show too much, but I just keep seeing over and over articles like Podcasting keeps increasing. I mean, it's been around for 10 years over 10 years and it's still Like a new media that's increasing in size. Oh, we're baby. We're like a teenager Literally, we've got There is no such thing as an overnight success, right? No, I understand that but but in technology, you know technology usually has that Hockey stick curve, you know, I mean Look at the smartphone since apple did it seven years ago a little over seven years ago Um, it's starting to plateau and they're looking for the next big thing We're not gonna get it or not. I don't there's no hockey sticks if we listen to rob Hockey sticks are coming I just had a hockey stick in the other direction in fact, so The reason why I think we won't have a hockey stick in podcasting is because Podcasting was born from the grassroots all of these other things that have seen hockey stick growth Have been born from a high level Not from the grassroots Corporate push Yeah, these major media forms these major industry changing things I'm not talking about an individual app or a service or a company that gets hockey stick growth I'm talking about an entire industry and that's what podcasting is And because of its grassroots foundation We're not I don't think we'll ever see the hockey stick growth. It will be slow growth at some point. Yes It will probably accelerate in growth But it's bottom up instead of top down but even I mean podcasting didn't have It didn't have a it wasn't before it wasn't a thing and it didn't have Customers like it was a thing and then you had to get people to listen, right? Do I mean even the iphone was built upon? Cell phones people had cell phones They're fine their flip phones and then this freaking computer came out and you could do everything on it, right? So they even they they had the audience was there Podcasting started didn't have an I it had to grow with the audience and right so we're trying to get people Yeah, people listen to talk radio, but it's much different and then the iphone, you know smartphones help that it was easier For people to transition to a new type of media So we're still doing that, right? There's still people There's still plenty of people don't know what a podcast is or I haven't heard one before I haven't tried it So we're growing at the I don't know are we growing faster or slower dave than people are Probably more podcasts than there are listeners. Yeah, that's the problem. I think right now is the I mean according to apple was what a thousand new podcasts are created a week And I I know we're not getting a thousand new Well, I don't know but it just seems like the you know the the amount of podcasts that are coming in is like a fire hose An amount of new listeners is you know, like a garden hose And so that's why I think we need to really start focusing Our audience on teaching them how to subscribe so that they can then tell two friends and they can tell two friends because That's that's really where we got to go Inter follow the follow the bouncing ball international podcast day dot com Yes, that's that's born out of trying to get more people into podcasting really I wish we knew that answer gave us how many die a week That would be a great step. Yeah more than More than succeed probably Yeah It's harder to keep going than it is to be like i'm out here Well, they didn't get in a new and noteworthy. So that's why I I stopped like four podcasts because I didn't get new Forget it Always the answer Brandon I had a montana Dedicated montana podcast I didn't get into a noteworthy so get it if we I was thinking about I was thinking about the whole building on things and even though they're not Well, they're jumping to a new season if we look at tv shows Like I think the walking dead is finally coming back Sunday And they keep putting out things that when I look at my dvr It's like walking dead and I'm like, oh cool fine I didn't know it was because I don't want the only time I watch tv is if it's recorded and they've put out now Two or three things one was in an interview with the cast One was a quick recap of the previous season And the one they just put out and now they've got new artwork for the the new season Is all about you know these different clips of so you're kind of trying to figure out what is going to happen And of course the clip doesn't really answer any of that. It's just a bunch of people running away from zombies and shooting people and you know Lots of suspenseful music, but it gets it's like it's getting you to think Oh, I wonder what this season is going to be like and so I could see where if you had a new podcast Doing things like using your social media to help people choose the artwork for get them involved Talk about what's going on behind the scenes. I just had this interview with somebody wait till you hear it anything to build up the buzz I think would be a great way to To leverage your your audience to do that. I think that's a great example because I know at this point And they do the same thing for game of thrones anytime. There's a big show when they're coming back They're not going to a new show. They're going to a new season And so they're just doing everything they can to to build up the buzz. So I think we could probably learn something from those folks One of the coolest things I saw during the once upon a time airing was when Fantastic beasts and where to find them was coming out Some of the cast Were in this commercial that played during the commercial breaks for once upon a time And the way they started their commercial was Once upon a time And they they then tied Their movie Into this concept of fairy tales and great stories and magic and all of that And I realized wow that probably one of the best Executed cross promotions of another show or another movie in this case I've ever seen because they made it relevant Yeah, I think I think that we I don't know if we need to have to be but it really helps out when you're proficient in in these new social media platforms And and be able to use it. But But I want it to be authentic and I'm not you know, this is going to sound Weird, but I'm not on facebook because I just I can't get into it and and Booktown is on facebook because my co-host put us on facebook Not because I wanted to you know, and I think that's the key is that you know if you use these things you got to You got to not only know how to use it, but authentically use it. Otherwise, I think people just like yeah, but you know The only one that I've ever been able to sustain is twitter, you know for good or bad That's the only one I've been able to sustain and that interests me and and I try and use it But I don't know if I'm even half as good as as some of these people who've been on there and love using twitter That's why I say well pat flin I think is famous for being for having said to be everywhere What I like to say is be everywhere you can be well If that's one platform then be only in that one platform And especially where this hurts is if you are linking to or promoting these other places Where you can't be I do say reserve your name your brand in those places But don't promote them if you're not there there's a company I forget the company right now makes some software. I recently interacted with them love their app. I forget what the app is though, but I went to their website and They very very prominently link to their twitter their facebook Their instagram. I think are some other social account And I went to all three of those places in absolutely no posts Right over a right year Yeah, exactly And you know you can tell that they they just did that because they thought they had to and I don't want To be that where the people Explore my links and see well he hasn't done anything on there and it even when it is posted You can tell that doesn't sound like stewart, you know, it sounds like someone posted for him So yeah, I totally agree that that it's you got to go to the places that you can have the time and passion to do it Right, you know because I do think that'll work best It's a tough thing because I agree with Daniel it's good to reserve your name at these places your brand your podcast whatever it is because If you're a very active user and that is your platform of choice That's where you enjoy being and then you go to look someone up or you want to mention Right, you want to give a shout out and they're not you're not there to be found Sometimes that can kind of suck you're like oh, why aren't you the place that I like to be? um But you don't want it to be a sort of ghost town either so I guess you know, Daniel You're splitting it by saying promote the places where you like to be Hey, if you want to get in touch or you want to hang out or behind the scenes and talk to me Whatever you want to chat Twitter and Instagram for me are my two places. That's you're going to find me there It's where it those two have stuck. I have a facebook page. It does okay I absolutely just can't stand posting to it. So it's it's got a lot of content, but it's not Regular enough and that's a bit of a problem But people want to mention you On facebook or they want to find you there to send you a message right facebook message is big So I don't want to be in those places. It's hard enough to get feedback And when you when you someone tries to reach out and give you feedback and and they're not there I think people can get frustrated. So that that's a tough one. Um, that's a tough one What do you guys do Brandon? Do you are you on all the platforms or you know? Do you just use a couple or social or not at all? No, I like Stewart said I think it's important to be Authentic and especially in this medium right because people people know if you're not if you're not into it I think people can tell yeah, you know it with that you having your voice in in their ears every single day or once a week so As far as platforms, I like twitter and for football that makes a lot of sense because anytime Like i'm sure daniel knows like with what's upon a time right if you want to reach your core audience You can be watching the show live And and interacting with the people that would would also enjoy your show So I think watching football watching sports is a great time to be interacting with uh with those types of people Who would fit your core audience? The other place that we are is facebook and just because it's common. I I really enjoy The we have a private facebook group for people who support us on patreon And that's one of my favorite places to hang out Because it's it's kind of a small group. So you get to know everybody and we've kind of built It's like its own little Place on the web now where we have about 80 people and and it's just uh, you know, it's it's a fun place to hang out and um And those are probably the two places where I focus most of my time Yeah, I mean I'm curious about this the word authenticity keeps coming up And I just don't feel like I don't feel like most podcasters are not authentic And if you're not participating in a platform, I don't think it means you're not being authentic like But when you're not yourself, I mean if you most of us are not having Someone else post we do don't have the resource to be like yeah not post What I mean authentic it's like um, you can tell some companies When they have a twitter account They're just doing it because they think they need to and you read their their twitter posts and you're like this is boring Which I think is much different than what I would think the majority of podcasters I don't find too many podcasters being fake until they get to a point where they're so big that it's clear that They're not doing their social for snapchat or something right, but I don't think it's I don't think it's as much of a problem with with podcasters and and even if they want it to be on every social media platform There's Unless you have a staff. There's no way They're gonna do that when you get big enough. I think you know, you start um, just like a you know A candidate for an elected office I think they have Assistance that helped them out at some point because there's just no way they're going to be able to manage their their social feeds And all that kind of good stuff It becomes one of those good problems to have you know like like the soap opera So many people are reaching out here, you know, we need we need help We need help distributing this thing, but you know in general us hobbies podcasters We're pick the pick the platform you enjoy, you know, and for me, that's it. I mean I might have more Reach on snapchat, but if I'm not going to use it or I'm not going to use it well You know Then it's just I'm not going to pull. I'm not going to be there. You can find me there and if you ask me a question I'll answer but You know, it's not where you're going to find the good content Yep. Yeah, I think you know this whole idea of of what would I want to do next? You know, I wouldn't want to have another podcast per se. I really would um, I'm looking at um growing Being a voice to help grow other Podcasts kind of similar to what you guys do with your own podcast. I know a lot of your you know, uh, I know Daniel and Dave And and you ray do lots of great work to help other podcasters be successful You know, and and that's a little bit what of the legacy. I'd love to leave, you know Where I'm helping other I would love to help other ukulele podcasters become successful. Um and also My my dream or what I've been thinking about is that 10 years from now people can still listen to my podcast and get something out of it. That would be awesome You know, and maybe even beyond that when I'm when I'm dead and buried and People still discover this podcast and go. Oh, wow. Yeah, he had he had something really neat to say and and I can still You know, I can still get something out of it. That would be awesome Make sure you will that hosting fee to uh Or get on get on the internet or archive that already. Yeah Yeah, there you go. So so video you're gonna start a youtube because you didn't want to start into the podcast How would you, you know, what are you thinking there? I don't well, again, it's more about, you know, creating a network I've also thought about um doing video, you know, pod video podcast like this. I do think that's there's um a great, um Interactivity and and uh, you know like it or not. I think a lot of Going forward these podcasts quote-unquote will become more like video podcasting, you know Well, jason jason norse in the chat. He says here. He asked do you think audio will ever catch up to video? and That's an interesting question. I don't know if it needs to um Is that how you perceive it? You guys think video is explosively more popular than audio Or viral than Audio, I think right right and it's more engaging. Well, it depends on What the video is so here here's a different way to maybe consider it Well, we may say that video is bigger than audio Where is it in the proportion of what's created? So of all of the content that's on youtube How much of it is actually watched or how much of it gets popular compare that to All of the content in podcasts how much of them are listened to or watched or get popular Yeah, I would love to dig into some stats of these popular shows like, um There's one show on Uh patreon called kind of funny And you know, they they just blew up, but I'd love to find out how many people listen to them Versus how many people watch their videos is it split evenly? You know, would they be I think part of their success is because they have a video Quote podcast, but um could they do it just audio? I don't know Yeah, I mean, I would say part of you know back to the original The topic we started off with I mean I did The video first technically but the the stuff that I do now that is More popular than other stuff I've done Uh, you know, it's definitely fits the audience that I have in the podcast. So I try to make sure you know a that I'm Producing videos that they would like that the audience from the podcast would like and so I'm happy to To build each one each way, right? So you do that with social too. You're like, hey, we're on instagram You know, we start an instagram go follow us, right? And you try to get that you try to get one audience move from somewhere to somewhere else If it's content that is like content and so, you know with video It gives you another opportunity to reach people who weren't listening to podcast, right? And then Yeah, and you want to hear a lot. I don't know about you guys, but a lot of people tell me Oh, yeah, you know when I'm working, um I love listening to your podcast or if I'm driving somewhere, right? You know, I don't want them watching a video while they're driving That would be dangerous I wonder if there's a lot of audience out there that that does that, you know When they're working out when they're taking their walk When they're doing chores around the house, they're not going to be able to watch a video But then they love listening to audio, right? And that's that's why audio podcasts Succeeded that that's why they grew bigger than video podcasts, right? Because when you go in for a podcast You know, you can you can consume more audio podcasts than you can consume video typically because you're doing You don't have to watch it. You're doing something else You have youtube, I think daniel, you know, like saying it's easier to go viral It's very easy to share. It's very easy to consume 30 seconds Two minutes, whatever it is, right? So And it's sort of you are in probably in a position when you're finding video on facebook You can press play on the on the uh the video or you kind of know from the thumbnail instantly Is this something I want to press play on that's harder to do on audio podcast, right? So the threshold is higher to get people to press play I would say You have a title But people aren't sharing it on social the way they they share video So they're just different mediums, but I think you can use one platform to grow the other for sure It's kind of like a book You might see people quoting from the book here and there but people don't share the book and you see people making gifts or Technically, they're supposed to be pronounced to gifs because that's the way the creator It's it's his fault There are ways to make podcasts shareable, but I I think it's It's going down the wrong path You you almost need a full-time person just to make those shareable snippets for your podcast or to find the good moments to share That's it Or make the process much easier for the audience and integrated into Apps which that's the hard thing And in a video, it's really easy to even if you're making your own animated gif It's very easy to just quickly scrub to find the right spot Then you select the other spot select where you want it to end Make your gif. It's super easy. My wife has even been making gifs lately But make a short snippet of an audio podcast No matter how good you make the app people Aren't familiar with editing waveforms and it's not a very friendly experience So it's just I think it's trying if you're trying to solve that problem. It's the wrong problem to solve Yeah, I think the the way these things grow and and um, at least for me would be people sharing it, you know and saying hey, did you listen to this and and um I think really think that is a better way to grow it You know the other way sometimes I think um, it becomes click bait and and not authentic again I use that word. I don't know which one but you know, when even on youtube, you know, they they make you click it by by thumbnails man the title the thumbnails. Yeah, but also a compelling quote-unquote Cover that you can oh, yeah, I gotta look at that and then you know, that's that's not really the main thing It's just click click bait. It actually happened You're like, I gotta click that one. I know that guy what happened nothing nothing actually happened What happened is he produced another video? It actually happened Great job. Well, you're not gonna we're not gonna retain that audience very long Well, I mean anything else as we head out the door here on this one in terms of We're thinking back to the original topic Daniel, but something I wish looking back is that I had only ever one podcast And poured all of my effort over the years. Is it that twice now? So you really wish You had just done one. I did say that twice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I would I would second that Dave Dave infamous domain owner wants to only have one domain name I wish I had like I'm right now I'm really trying to focus on my health because I want to go down to my goal weight and go Thank you. Good night with the logical weight loss podcast I just killed well, I I've put out to pasture weekly web tools if I could get down to like just three I would be happy at this point because there's only so many hours in the day and I really at times You can you can just do it take control of your life, Dave. Yeah, I just I'm with Daniel I'd like to see what I could have done if I just had one And spent all the other time that I'm doing these other shows on promotion Because that's the one thing I don't do hardly That's where you'd spend it, huh? You take that extra time and you'd promote not more content Promote no promote interesting. So if you is rob walsh in the room have you told him that? Well, that's probably because he's at a good place with his content. It's not bad content. It's good content. So it If he spent more time on the content What would probably end up happening is he would end up making more content and then episodes would become longer and longer and longer So the promotion for for those who have I'm not going to say arrived But for those who have found that good balance of work and how much work on the content Which I would say is probably the minority of independent podcasters out there who have found out how to create good content But all the ones listening to this podcast are those good podcasters out there They probably need to spend more time on growing Yeah, I would I would that's where I would really put more of my time and and I'm trying to do that is I'm better ways to promote it. Um, you know to get bigger on patreon so to speak and yeah, I that's to me, um I guess two things one is promotion and then the other one is just not necessarily doing another podcast But um promoting other people so that they can do an ukulele podcast also and share my experiences and knowledge with them Well, one of the great things about this medium podcasting is that you can do what you want And so I think if I were going to start something new to have it as my primary focus It would it would be something that I know has a Has an endpoint So whether it was a 10 episode series then I I could spend my time focusing on that And and have a start have an end and have a complete goal and then I can go back to my my regular show That's week to week. Oh, that's a great idea. I like that. Hopefully it's something that sells He put all that time and make a 10 series digital product and then go back to the show and sell the heck out of that thing Yeah Mike drop retire you could make z-town the podcast Is that what's it was it called? What's S town is the other one. Okay. I was like there there's where's the spin-off s town. That's right. I have not listened obviously Awesome. Well, yeah, I mean I do like that I like that idea a lot Brandon because there are several ideas that I have Which would take I've told people they don't happen because they would take such intense focus Almost to the point where I'd have to drop everything But if you could make it very specific give yourself a little bit of a of a timeline and a goal I think I think I like that goal Um, you know, that's thinking differently. I think a lot of people think oh, I started a new thing I had to keep doing that thing And that will improve hiatus with your other show right because you know that I'm going to stop now And then I'm going to give myself this amount of time and and then I can go back Yeah, it's also fantastic if sometimes just need to make me need a break to re-energize you for that for that show that you've been Doing for so long and so well and it could benefit the audience and you so I don't know that I do like that idea I like that idea and I can even see myself doing that and still keeping the podcast going because I think I have enough energy and And knowledge and ability so that I can you know continue my Uktown podcast sure, but also that I can spin off something that I know has a start and end point You know and maybe some idea. I'd love to explore but not necessarily forever Just right a little while and you can plan for it. I mean pre-record Months worth of episodes, you know or whatever are you know four episodes Whatever it would take for that 10 week period you're gone or something So you don't have that show doesn't have to stop really if you don't want it to I mean, obviously that's more work But if you are concerned with that There are ways around it. So yeah some cool ideas at the end. So see pays to listen to the end at least for me I'm glad I stuck around All right, well as we head out. Let us know where we can find your podcast And uh, we'll stay tuned for what you're gonna add to that later, but uh brandon. Thanks again for joining us All the way from Montana shout out to your wife for handling the uh, like the kid taxi today for letting you join us last minute Yeah, and for allowing me to do this this crazy podcasting thing every every week too So, uh, you can check us out if you're seahawks fan or if you know a seahawks fan Send them to seahawkers podcast calm on patreon where it get in the flock calm That'll take you to our patreon page. Nice get in the flock. I like it. I had a friend Growing up in northern california. You always had a seahawks hat And it was he was the weird guy out like it just didn't make sense at all But you know now he's cool because it was different. So He got his trophy daniel Thanks so much once again for helping out and coming up with this topic I'm daniel j lewis from the audacity to podcast.com. Don't worry that podcast is not going anywhere Or if you hate that podcast, then i'm sorry that podcast is not going anywhere. Well, actually it's going all kinds of great places It's not going away. That's what I mean over at the audacity to podcast.com He keeps saying he's really concerned you're going to unsubscribe Like don't unsubscribe to the tap. Don't do it. Don't it's not going anywhere Dave we know you're not going anywhere. So thanks for joining us and we'll see you again Yeah, dave jackson school of podcasting.com. We talked about networks. You can see everything I do over at power of podcasting.com There you go stewart has excellent resources to start his network or the idea david daniel both have networks so and you know I've listened to go ahead ray. Sorry. I was just gonna say we did we ever get that as there was a planned round table? But I don't I'm looking through the archive here. I'm not sure if we covered I think I think we did I think there's a I think there's a whole round table about it I think we have to bring it back. That's always a big question People always want to know how to grow your show and they want to know Should I start an artwork network or how can I do it? So popular topics there, but stewart? Thanks for joining us Yeah, thanks for having me ray. I I listened to you guys and gotten a lot of Great ideas and great tips, you know and and you know one of the reasons I have this hyal Mic is because I've listened to your show. So there you go But um, you can find me at uh, uptown.com Okay, twn.com slash podcast Or go on the patreon uh patreon.com slash uptown. Okay, twn would love More people to listen to it and um spread that loha through the ukulele Very cool. Yeah, and you know how to use the hyal which is most important because It sounds great. Both of you guys sounded great tonight. So we always appreciate good audio here on the round table We don't always get it and we take it when we can get it But uh, yeah, thanks again everybody in the chat seth mark gabe Was in there for most of the time mark checked in jason norris. So Of course emily always here feels like romper room when I do this, but Remember that look through the mirror like the mirror that didn't have a Daniel and brandon I just wanted to be the teacher. All right, you guys we'll see you for 103 Yeah, I don't know if it'll be a couple weeks. We'll see you for 103. We will be here Uh podcast your round table dot com to uh to see the archive There's the networks in there somewhere and of course to sign up to join us if you want to be on the round table Podcast your round table dot com slash guests romper room shout outs in this chat wave. Goodbye. We're out