 I'm Jay Fidel and this is Global Correlations and today we're going to examine how America can make peace in the Middle East. This is not an easy question. It seems to be more complicated every day but for really complicated things we talked to Carl Baker and he is a senior advisor at Pacific Farm. We're going to talk about American farm policy in a chaotic framework. Wow, Carl are you up to it? I don't know Jay. It's a tough problem to solve and you know by framing it as how the Americans or how the United States can make peace sort of hints at part of the problem I think because that's always been the go-to solution when it comes to the Middle East specifically Israel that the United States it's sort of seen as the global power that can solve all problems or at least gets nominated as the prime mover in solving those problems and I think today that's becoming more and more of a question of whether this is still the case and we see the fragmentation within the U.S. itself of how do we deal with this problem and then and then you see the rest of the world looking at it saying oh how many double standards can you violate this time America you know so I think it's it's a big problem it's a big challenge and and there's no there's obviously no easy solutions here. What are we looking for let's let's be optimistic for a minute when we say you know how America can make peace what what is peace exactly well yeah I think that's I think that's a fair question because because what is peace in the Middle East it's people not killing each other maybe that's that's kind of the bottom line but maybe let's let's start by by thinking about where the United States wants to end this I mean what's what's the end state that that the Americans want and to me it's to build a stronger coalition in the Middle East against Iran and to have the at least the Sunni Arab world aligned with Israeli and U.S. European interests I think I think that's that's the best you could hope for in in where we are today in American foreign policy. Let's take a digression about Iran for just a minute some people say it's all religion and including comments by Isaac Herzog from a president of Israel who's a very thoughtful guy but other people say it's not it's not religion it's oil it's economics it's money it's power it's everything but religion and these actors use religion as as a way to you know advance their other interests they use religion and they use the you know historical hatred of the Arab community the Palestinian community against Israel as tools as you know as weapons to aggravate things what are your thoughts is it is what is it is it religion is it economics is it oil is it power is it geopolitical strategy what is yes I think and that's why it's such a difficult problem because yes it's all of those things and and different people take different put different foci on what we're talking about so so some people would say it is about geopolitics it is about oil other people will say it is about religion and you know and and then I think there's also an an ethnic and Arab element involved here that that there's there's an there's an Arab versus Israeli mindset or Arab versus Jew mindset that that comes into play so you know I think that it's it's that's what makes it so complicated is that they're all these dynamics and they all kind of feed into each other and so and so that's why I tried to say that that the best outcome I think for the United States is to continue this process of trying to maintain some level of relationship with the Sunni Arab world against the the Iranian the Shiites Arab of world because they see that as as the the best they can do in trying to maintain some level of stability in the Middle East in the broader Middle East which ultimately is beneficial to the Israelis and and the maintenance of the Israeli state are you ruling out some kind of denouement with Iran itself you know the Iranian people they're nice people and they're you know they're largely middle class people they're pretty well educated they're they as a group are sympathetic with the United States it's just a theocracy that you know gets them off the track and and leads them down a path like this one so query are you ruling out the possibility that somebody some wrong leader some really Akamai leader could talk to them and make peace with them and in so doing create a piece for the whole region a fair point and I think that that could be a long-term solution that that you could you could eventually work with Iran but I think as long as you have Hamas Hezbollah and and all the other influences by the Iranians in that region I think that it's it's a bridge too far because you aren't going to remove the theocracy and and Iran is at this point taking advantage of the situation using using its relationship with China using its relationship with with the Russians to to maintain its full power in in that region yeah footnote before we go forward to that I just want to mention that that recently within the last day or two the Israelis released the footage that they accumulated from the militants and otherwise of their killings of of the the Israelis on October 7th and what what is interesting about this is that it wasn't just Hamas it was the Islamic jihad and it was ordinary old-fashioned Palestinians from from Gaza in other words this is a this was a collaborative effort and that's a shocker rule because we have been led to think that the Palestinians are just human shields that Islamic you know jihad was a secondary organization not not not right up at the front but no this this footage shows you different and so what we have is a is a collaboration between what did I say a lot a lot of a lot of groups yeah I I'm not quite as willing to walk all the way down that road I mean this is this is an in real isn't an in and Israeli interpretation of what they're seeing and and to to I mean I think we need to be very careful that we don't try to say all Palestinians eight Israelis and there's no I mean you just said they're not saying that Carl they're just saying there was some Palestinians involved in the attack right yeah no I understand that but I mean you know the next the next step is that is that we we can't have any sympathy for the Palestinians and I think you know that's where the real difficulty comes is how do we how do we put this into context of what's happened in that part of the world you know I think that's and that's the and that's the part that becomes problematic when you start looking at you know to what extent is Israeli Israel justified in in making retribution for what happened on October 7 you know and I think that that's that's where the Biden administration is trying to walk a really really thin rope to to to figure out how do you balance human rights you know for for the Palestinians who are caught in the middle I agree you know that sure there are some Palestinians who were engaged with Hamas in this in this attack but at some point you have to take into consideration the the humanitarian aspect of what's happening in Gaza today yeah I mean there's all kinds of considerations there there are linkages and then there are indications there were no linkages it's really we'll never really know at least not in a near term anyway but let me let me ask you know what what Isaac Hertzard said and what they all say all the Israelis they say well you know just just release the hostages and we'll be much more humanitarian and and we'll we'll take it easy and we'll you know do do things that are friendlier I'm not sure what that would be I guess they would stop bombing for one thing but but who knows but they say you know this is a logic thing we don't get to any other question we don't get to the question of what is what is Gaza going to look like afterwards not going to get there until we have the hostages back don't don't confuse us with future futuristic predictions and all that until we have the hostages back um you agree sure I think we can say that that that has to be that has to be part of the equation but it can't be I mean realistically it can't be give us the hostages and then we'll show you what we're going to do there that has to be that has to be a negotiation that has to be something that that who and who are you talking to I mean part of the problem here is that who who's the who's the other side you know are you are you going to talk to Hamas well you can't really do that you know so so who are you who are you talking to the Israelis are making a somewhat maximalist demand by saying hostages back then talk well okay who are you going to talk to are you going to talk to Hamas because you said you want to eliminate Hamas so now what is the what is the authority you know the the the two-state solution that that the United States Blinken in particular are talking about of course brings in you know the PLO the Palestinian Liberation Organization or the Palestinian Authority but those people don't have credibility in Gaza right now either so so it really is problematic and and I think that's why it's somewhat a disingenious for the Israelis to say give us the hostages and then will will be more humanitarian because you you have no interlocutor to to make anything beyond the the demand of of returning the hostages so they want do you think they want an interlocutor I mean if you ask them and you know an honest one-on-one conversation hey don't you don't you want somebody from Hamas to talk to isn't that a part of a solution that you could just discuss it with some responsible official if you will I don't understand are you are you saying do you think is are you saying are you asking me if you if I think Israel wants an interlocutor or should want well they should want one yeah but I'm not sure they do as is part of and that you see I see that as part of the problem is you know when you start talking about a two-state solution you know which is part of the formulation that that that Lincoln has been talking about with people and and gutter is of course trying to push this again too you know I mean who are you gonna who's who's the other side you know there's really no authority that you're going to trust or you're going to want to talk to and and and I think I think the Israelis have been fairly clear that they're not going to accept Hamas as as the interlocutor at this point well then you have to talk to yourself don't you right and you know so for example this is really questionable um Netanyahu gets up yesterday and he says we're going to we're going to occupy the place this is a really highly charged word not very good rhetoric at all we're going to occupy the place until it cools down we are going to be the authority we're going to talk to ourselves about how to do it we're going to we're going to work it out in a way that it will work and we know how to make that work a lot of people a lot of pushback on that even though the Israelis are united in the idea that they have to get rid of Hamas but this what are you going to do later day after analysis is really important so I asked you before you know what does peace look like um what does peace look like in Gaza does it look like the Israelis will create a a civil society there they could they could everybody would oppose that I mean people in Hamas or rather the the the survivors are of Hamas and the Palestinians and the Gazans in general wouldn't feel too good about that but as a practical matter they could probably establish a democratic government in Gaza but short of that short of that and this is a hard question Carl if I if I were you I would tell me that's too hard a question short of that what can be done let's assume they get rid of Hamas it's gone the tunnels are all collapsed you know the weapons are all seized they have all the Hamas guys they can find in jail um what what happens to Gaza what we want to happen well I um what we want to happen and what and what Israel wants to happen I think you're right it's not the same thing and it should it probably shouldn't be the same thing and I think you you have to think about it in terms of some some sort of collaborative effort by by the Arab world or at least you know ideally you would have a UN that could it could move into this kind of situation then I'm not sure that that's the case so is there is there a regional force that you could bring in to to police Gaza or to to basically manage civil relations in Gaza post this this purge of the of the Hamas you know and I question I mean I very much question the premise that you can actually purge Hamas it's sort of like the United States thinking they can purge the Taliban in in Afghanistan you know I mean and that we learned that lesson on a large scale and I think that is Israel will learn that you can't purge somebody on a small scale because by doing what you're doing now is you're building young Hamas's out there in in Gaza that are going to remember you for generations for what use they perceive as as persecution it actually couldn't be worse than it's been you know we have a a generation or two or three of hatred and how much worse could it get going forward but okay you know you suggest and maybe this is really a good takeaway for the show you suggest some regional organization of Arab states not not including any we don't include any terrorist organizations at all in fact we don't include any states that are that that support terrorism just ordinary Arab states around the region we make and we make a kind of ASEAN out of it can I use that term a kind of ASEAN out of it and we say look will you guys get in a room and figure out what to do with and we'll listen to you and hopefully the soul of Palestinians in Gaza you think that's a viable solution and if so how do you do that well I mean you do it you do it by working with the Arab League you do it by working with Qatar you know which wants it is very interested in trying to take a lead here you know I mean the Saudis have kind of been hinting that they're willing to work with Israel you know and so so maybe maybe that the the Arab League is the is the place to start you know and and like as you say you sort of isolate people who have have proven to be problematic and and you try to get the Palestinian authority involved anyway and and you know bring them in and then at least you have somebody to talk to you have somebody that there's at least a level of mutual trust to to to work the streets of Gaza to to prevent the the exacerbation of the as you say generations of hatred you know to me that's that that becomes a feasible solution and then of course you need to address the issue of Palestinian homeland you know I mean Martin Indike I think is still correct in talking about some kind of trusteeship for for this this but wait but wait a Palestinian homeland the Palestinians already have Gaza it's theirs it's in theirs for 20 years yes um so what's the need to you know address a Palestinian homeland when they already have a homeland well yeah uh yes that's correct and and they they also have the West Bank don't they just the West Bank in extricably linked to this whole affair in Gaza I mean Hamas is in both places and Palestinians are in both places have to acknowledge that but is it a necessary link in reaching peace in Gaza I know I certainly certainly what is what is necessary for peace in Gaza is is some recognition that the Palestinians and the Israelis have a disagreement over territorial rights on that piece of land whatever you want to call that piece of geography the fact is is that yes the Palestinians have Gaza and they have the West Bank but you and I both know that there's way more baggage associated with those statements than what I just said the other thing is this is something Isaac Herzog also said I found it I found it really interesting and I've heard it before you know back in the day and the ought years if you will there were a lot of countries not necessarily from you know that region but from Europe who gave the Palestinians a lot of money in Gaza and said here go make and I'm my quoting on this go make a beautiful city go make a city with tourism and wonderful hotels and restaurants this this Singapore I think they called it the Singapore of the Mediterranean what a great idea and they gave enough money to build the infrastructure for this but when Hamas took over and I mean took over they built tunnels instead they spent billions on on these ridiculous tunnels and weapons and so that that got lost but in in the new peace curl don't you think it would be a good idea to revisit that I that idea about redeveloping Gaza with hotels and and five-star restaurants and tourism all along the shore and make it the Singapore you know of of the Mediterranean so a could it be done be who would help do it because it's going to cost billions you know just like Ukraine is going to cost billions and and could is it doable at all would it work well I mean I think the money is there certainly the Gulf states are not are not short of cash I mean they've they've certainly spent a lot of money on sports teams of late and so that money could probably be repurposed you know so so I think I think that's that's all doable but again you really you really need to have you know the next step in what we were trying to do with the with the Gulf states and and the Abram records you know I think that that's that's really you know that that's what I said I think build a stronger Middle East coalition absent the Iranians granted you know maybe 20 years from now we can talk about somehow remembering that the Iranian people are good people and that they're run by a theocracy which is has run itself out of out of power but for now I think that that we really need to figure out how to how to engage the Arab world in in helping solve this problem and and Israel saying all Palestinians are bad and Palestinians saying all it's really too bad is not part of that solution that you know that it's that's a problem that needs to be addressed of you know reducing the level of animosity and the maximalist demands from both sides need to be need to be dialed back a bit before you're going to get real buy-in from from the Arabs yeah that's going to take a long time for Israel you know this was so brutal so so outlandish outrageous but anyway you know one of the essential elements of building that coalition is not only to include like the Arab League certain reasonable countries but it's making sure that you exclude the others and so I want to obviously Iran is not a good candidate right now I don't think Syria is I don't think Yemen is for many reasons including the fact that it's all fragmented and involved in a perpetual war but then you know there's Lebanon which Lebanon is the is the poor boy the poor person of that whole area Lebanon is falling apart economically falling apart and that leads to falling apart politically which is why Hezbollah has such authority and you know Iran has such authority in Lebanon because it's falling apart so and Syria the same way I mean I as you say I mean those two are just not real candidates I mean maybe the interesting one is Jordan you know how do they how do they fit in since they're so much different they're not really part of the Arab Arab League or anything so you know so if you could bring in you could bring in Jordan and and and the Arabs and and the Israelis to come up with some some sort of governance mechanism in Gaza that they can all at least accept and at least negotiate with I think that that's that's the best we can hope for in in at least the midterm so I want to ask about other countries uh Saudis the Saudis sound like a good candidate they have the money and they can be reasonable most of the time uh Qatar Bahrain Emirates are those good candidates yeah I think those I think those are the prime candidates because those are the ones that have the money they have the they have the resources they have they have enough goodwill on both sides that they could play that and they and they are they're certainly not real democracies but they certainly have to have good relations with with the United States with with the the Palestinians at least they're they're the Palestinians think they're friends you know so and and the Israelis have been obviously you know through the United States working to establish these relationships with these countries so yeah I think and those are the ones with the money I mean let's be let's be honest here you know when you when you put gut gutter Bahrain and the UAE in a room they've got a lot of they've got a lot of cash that's available so they they do have the money to do to what's in it for them a more stable region I mean they they get a benefit from that too that they they actually are hurt by the by the the Palestinian issue or the you know the Israeli issue depending on what side you're sitting on I suppose you know but I think they they would benefit from that they would get certainly get prestige for it you know and and they're they are looking for that I mean this is part of that you know part of that effort to to reach out to the west and insulate themselves a little bit at least from from Chinese influence and from Russian in right you know they don't want to they don't want to get sucked up into that into that vortex very much in well you know and they they don't they want to control the crowds in the street because that you know the crowds in the street are a symbol of volatility and and instability what about Egypt would you include or exclude Egypt I mean I think Egypt has to be included you know given given its history with with the with the Israelis and and the Gaza and you know obviously they're they're the they're the neighbor that has to has to work to to facilitate what's happening in Gaza so yeah I think I think Egypt has to be included as well these questions get harder as we go forward I know I'm not I'm not going to ask you about Pakistan I'm not going to even ask about that but I think we can stop somewhere over on that side what about what about Europe what about the EU I I guess I sure I mean the EU has to has to be supported but I think you know I think if there's you know it's not it's not an EU America problem it's it's the the global south I know there's people are Joe and I says I can't use that term anymore because it's it's not well defined that's a little bit disingenuous it's defined well enough we know who they are you may not have a have a country name for each one of them but the fact is that there's a there's that that rest of the world out there that is looking very much for real leadership and I think that that's that's the group that we need to impress that we can do something useful and collaboratively and so I think certainly Europe is is part of it and I think Europe wants to be a part even though they're also part of that problem that goes back to to the mid the mid the interwar years of the 20s and 30s it's so few of them I mean into war years yeah but now the most ticklish one of all is the United States because what we do is not necessarily trusted in the Arab world but what we do is or theoretically can be very very influential it can be influential certainly with with Israel because we support Israel in so many ways and as a you know a historical nexus for sure and I suppose you know it can be influential in at least some of these countries that we've identified as part of the coalition but but but the US is sort of in a fragile spot because it may be treated with distrust by some of those countries and by the Palestinians it may be treated as too influential you know maybe by the Israelis and of course the US you alluded to this earlier is is not the same as it was and it's no longer the you know the the beacon on the hill it is no it it doesn't have moral supremacy that it used to have sorry and and then of course we're in the middle of a of a campaign that will determine our future and it may not be the right kind of future for a country that wants to make peace in the Middle East so what now this is a big question of all Carl this is what our title is how can America make peace in the Middle East America make peace in the Middle East yeah I think I think we just defined what my answer is I mean in some ways we've sort of given you that answer because it's the fact that the United States doesn't have unipolar influence anymore and it needs to learn to play with others and by that I mean you need to figure out how to get the Arabs on board you need to figure out how to get the Europeans to contribute meaningfully to the to the process and you need to figure out how to get the Egyptians to to contribute and whoever else is willing to contribute you know and it's not it's not going to be through the UN that's not going to be the solution because you've got you've got basically a stalemated security council again so you've got it you've got to show that you can actually lead from the middle rather than lead by saying we're going to do this follow me you know I think that that's that's the real challenge for the United States are they really prepared to acknowledge that they are a a player not the player in providing peace so when it says us we say we want to say us and its friends and partners and mean it beyond us us partners and allies us first and everybody else just kind of tag along I think that that's that's where we are today and I think that this is sort of a microcosm of that larger problem that we have in the world that we need to really think about how do we work collaboratively with with our friends and partners and allies and partners to provide public goods and a public good and the public good today is to prevent total chaos in in Israel and that part of the world yeah yeah that's such a good point Carl really that is really a real takeaway from this discussion on the other hand whatever the United States whatever the role the United States finds to be appropriate as the person in the middle the the nation in the middle it has to be don't you agree it has to be consistent it can't jump from election cycle to election cycle on again off again and and everybody in the world watches what happens for for every bloody committee in both houses of Congress never knowing what we're going to do or not do I think we have to find a consistency is this possible that's not a fair question okay I withdraw that question the answer is too obvious yeah I mean you know it and I think I think the rest of the world sees that I mean you're exactly right that that the rest of the world worries you know how how how can the United States continue to play a meaningful role when you have what appears to be complete chaos in Washington DC you know and so I think you know it's it's again it's it's another yet another yet another call from the wild out there saying it's it's time to to understand that this is this is costing the America the United States a role in the world it's it's a a challenge to American if you want soft power you know that that sense that the United States is is a a beacon is is sort of gone and and now we really need to see if we can get a little fire started here to show that we we do have some capacity to to build a coalition that that involves everybody and gives everybody a role to play in in resolving big issues yeah oh yeah it reminds me of my my summer camp when I was a kid the counselor didn't tell us what to do he asked us what we wanted to do and we and we thought silly us that it was our decision you know it's something something out of fuck fin but anyway yeah so let's talk about the immediate issue and that is whether the United States goes ahead and supports you know Israel with money and weapons this is not entirely clear yet and the poison pill of defunding the IRS is you know doesn't help it at all and and of course defunding the entire government as a threat between now and next week doesn't help it at all I mean all the world is watching so that's one part of my question the other part is you know the whole Ukrainian thing where for some reason there are those who like Israel with the poison pill but don't like Ukraine where in fact there's a lot of similarity between a wrongful immoral attack and and the fate of a nation in both cases and yet we we make the distinction without any real difference but we seem to be making the distinction without a difference between Israel and Ukraine so how does this play in terms of the United States finding a foreign policy role that would be appropriate in the middle end quote to play you know a better strategy in the Middle East I'm not sure I'm not sure how to answer your question because you know Ukraine and Israel are connected but they're not connected the way that we're trying to portray them I don't think I don't think we're defending democracy here I don't see that as as the the common element you know as as Biden has said you know that these are these are two democracies under threat I think that that that's that's just misleading I think you know if Iraq Israel is is not under the democracy in Israel is not under threat because of this war I think that that Israel is is an issue that needs to be dealt with because it it is a problem that is has been going on for a long time and it and it deserves attention I think Ukraine is is a problem that needs to be addressed separately from Israel I don't think I don't think it's it's useful to connect them I think they both need to be supported but I I don't like the idea of connecting them I think that that misleads and it and it leads to a to a very difficult position for the United States because people see it as a double standard and you know as you know in in in the the global south if you will they see what's happening in Palestine as an example of our in Gaza I'm sorry in Gaza as a smaller version of what Russia did in Ukraine you know and so so I think we need to be very careful that we we United States recognize that that there is this perception and so by by by linking them it becomes even more difficult to to maintain that that Iraq Israel is doing one thing in Israel and we need to defend the Israel right for self-defense where in in Ukraine it really is about an invasion of of a a sovereign country you know event race is at least in my mind right now right here one possible reason that Joe Biden put him together because I with you I was surprised that he put him together that way made it one one initiative and I thought two initiatives might have been more thoughtful but I think I think what he might have had on his mind maybe what he said was these are both exigent situations these are both time of the essence kinds of support we have delayed too long in this and we need to act now or history will take take a pass what do you think about that yeah I mean that's being pretty generous I think uh I mean what I what I heard him say was that this is this is a threat to democracy argument and so I you know I mean yes they are both existential threats but I think that they're they're fundamentally different existential threats so I'll go with I'll go with existential okay okay I've been asking people you know and to get all kinds of different answers about whether the success of these two countries Israel and Ukraine have a profound effect or what level of effect do they have on the election in November if Joe Biden you know reports to support him both but fails simply by the passage of time or politics what have you and they both you know lose in some notable way or either one of them loses in some notable way isn't that going to make him look like a a you know a weak president a weak international leader which he does not want to look like that uh and will it cost him you know um lots of votes in the election honestly I you know I'm going to go with the with the sort of standard answer of saying it's very unusual that foreign policy has an impact on American elections and I think in this case that would also be true I mean it would be it would be something that the Republicans could file on I'm sure like Afghanistan remember Afghanistan you know yeah yeah sort of but that's kind of a vague memory already I mean for you know for the way the way the Americans treat it you know I mean it's really hard to see how how foreign like I say the Republican could file that on to to to the the deficit list for for Biden but I mean there's so many other things you know the economy and you know are you better off this year than you were four years ago kind of kind of arguments about the economy and so yeah it could be but you know I mean at the at the risk of thinking that I understand people who are voting for the Republican candidate in 2024 or the presumptive 2024 candidate whose name should not be mentioned yeah that's right I'm not you know you have to you have to wonder how much they care about anything beyond the border with Mexico yeah not true okay one last one last area one last question so the US has and Joe Biden have tried to convince Netanyahu and Israel to you know not attack or to attack in lesser measure or to take a pause whatever that means we could spend a whole show on that and and so what what you have is he's trying and Anthony Blinken is trying to get Israel to back off to get Netanyahu back off a little bit but they're not really successful and there's good reasons for Israel to say no we're not going to buy that this is our war you stay out of it but I'm I'm wondering about your reaction to that should they have asked that should they have insisted that that Netanyahu back off should they insist more should they be more insistent what where does that role that we were talking about fit in dealing with their relations with Netanyahu right now well I yeah I mean I think I saw in the news today that that apparently Netanyahu has agreed to stop fighting for four hours at a at strategic time or something to allow movement of refugees and and provide a humanitarian aid or something so you know so so they're they're inching in that direction apparently of providing something you know this humanitarian pause whatever you know kind of a disingenuous term I think but you know yes I think I think there has to be again there has to be if you if you're going to find a solution in the end I think you've got to show some empathy for refugees or for people who are caught in the middle of this thing and the only way you're going to do that that based on what you see happening in the rest of the world specifically in the in the you know again in the global south that you've got to show that you have some empathy for the the citizens of Gaza you know the normal people of Gaza and if you can't do that then then it becomes even more difficult to see how you can play a role in in putting things back together once whatever we're doing in Gaza is is over or whatever the Israelis are doing in Gaza is over if you're going to be a part of that solution then I think you've got to at least be somewhat responsive to to the demands of the rest of the world that is supporting the Palestinian position yeah but what about Biden himself should he be more insistent should you know he has a lot of leverage with Netanyahu should he be really pushing him yes I do I think I think that I think he should I think that that he should be pushing for I personally think we should be be looking at at least a temporary ceasefire I'm not saying a permanent ceasefire but certainly certainly time to to recalibrate what we're trying to do and and and you know again you're not going to eliminate every every member of Hamas no matter how many times you spend out no matter how much time you spend down in the tunnels you're not going to eliminate you're not going to eradicate people who hate Israel living in in Gaza it's just not going to happen so yes I think I think we should he should be more more proactive but I understand why he's not also yeah I mean he's literally trying to walk a road yes I that's really what's happening here he's got two sides yelling at him and he's got to find a way and and that matter Netanyahu has got to find a way so he's talking about a pause of a few hours the answer is in between more than a few hours but less than a few days whatever yeah let me ask you pick a time frame yeah yeah well so that Netanyahu is not too worried about for example Hamas building up its building up his forces again and planting more booby traps or whatever he wants to he should want to give him only enough time to do the humanitarian thing and after that let's get back to business anyway let me let me uh well I'm I'm much more I'm much more I'm much more of a piece monger than than than that I mean I would I would say I I mean personally I would I would say you really need to reevaluate what your objective is here is is it really to to to destroy in detail or is it to send a clear message and then start working with people who can actually help solve the problem because you yeah I mean I'm I'm going to say you're you can't kill your way to victory now go to my air said you can't make peace with somebody who is sworn to destroy you that's what yeah go to my air said so yeah and and what what did I hear one more very interesting comment with reference to you know the second world war is the way to peace is through war yeah and that seems to play out again and again yeah but I'm I'm gonna yeah I know pieces are profession so look out for that bomb so one last question and it goes to Thomas Friedman's column in today's times where he said the one magic bullet here is to get rid of Netanyahu get him out of walk and that will all be able to relax because he's a terrible leader and indeed a lot of people feel that he is a terrible leader maybe less so of a wartime leader but his rhetoric really needs some work if you and I got in a room with him we could really help him I know that but the problem is that he's already cast he's cast his lot in terms of the way he addresses these issues and the words he chooses and so forth so you know that's what Friedman is coming from that point of view we can't we can't have Netanyahu there any longer and if we do you know change change Netanyahu out there's the you know the issue of looking weak there's the issue of having more of the same kind of tumult in Israel which democracies have that we know but that kind of tumult doesn't help them in in prosecuting any of these other external issues so I'm wondering what your thoughts are about whether we should encourage Netanyahu to step down we should encourage Israel to force him to step down and if so what how do we do that in a way though that it doesn't have a deleterious effect I mean it probably would have been a something that you could think about doing a year ago I'm right now that you you said I don't think there's a reasonable way to do that other than to to cause him to lose so much face and and it would really kind of destroy Israel's capacity to to respond at this point so I think I think yes it would be nice to figure out how to how to get Netanyahu to move on but I don't see any any reasonable way for the for the United States to you know make threats or or to you know sort of position itself to to make that happen outside of the normal confines of Israel israeli politics yeah regime change is always troublesome when you're trying to do it as a matter of foreign policy yeah yeah it's a trickier than you might have thought you know it's just great to think about how they're going to throw roses at feet when you come through the streets but yeah it doesn't always work out that way now that's it. Marley so much appreciate your your good nature and your and your engagement with me on these all these all these issues we've covered so much and I really appreciate the discussion thank you. Thank you. Aloha.