 Good morning. I have the great pleasure of introducing someone who, to this community and to many others, needs truly no introduction. But I figure I'll say a few things just to welcome him more than anything else. Joey, too, is no stranger to the Harvard Law School and the Berkman Center, but also to the Hewlett OER community. Of course, he was CEO of Creative Commons, one of the important grantees of this program. He also has a whole bunch of institutional cred, as in the new director of the MIT Media Lab and board member of multiple national foundations, as well as someone who has made investments in the iconic companies and some of the soon-to-be iconic companies of this iteration of the web. But what I'm most interested in, excited to hear from Joey about, is his own theories of education and how it relates to various movements that are emerging right now, in particular this one. Joey has an amazing story himself of how he came to these heights, which is not in the traditional mode of advancing through schools like this one to take on these important institutional roles. And I think he's been one of the most important spokespeople for thinking about hacking education in really dramatic and distinctive ways, but to do that in a way that is grounded in the most serious and most effective methods. Joe Ito, we are honored by your presence and so grateful that you're here to keynote this morning. Please join me in welcoming Joe Ito. Thank you, John. I think this is working, right? And then I need to switch that over. So probably a year ago, I would never have imagined that I would be at an academic institution. It was the last place I could ever imagine myself. So I'll try to talk about the topic by telling some stories. And I think, does everybody know what this means? It means too long didn't read. This is what happens when you send a long email to some kid on the internet and they reply, TLDR. And the polite people will, so as a faculty member, what you do is you write a big long email and then at the very bottom or at the very top, you write TLDR and then you write a one-liner of what you're actually trying to say. But kids these days don't read big walls of text. When you send them big walls of text, they say TLDR. Well, this, in a funny way, sums up my life because my whole life as a young person trying to go through school, everything felt very TLDR, where I wasn't a good reader. I had a hard time making it through classwork. I don't know whether I was, I never was tested, so I couldn't tell if it was dyslexia or just lack of interest. But it clearly wasn't the opportunity because this is my sister and me. We were roughly treated equally and we had the same opportunities. But she liked books. She would sit and read books all day. And I hated books. I could never read books. My father pushed me to read books, but I just didn't read books. And my sister was able to use these books as a kind of scaffolding for her thinking and her learning. And she did very well in tests. She was driven by tests. She had a fear of failure and she could plan very far ahead because she knew she wanted to end up here in a college at actually at Harvard. And she got a Magna Cum Laude at Harvard, Stanford, two PhDs, ended up in the Ivory Towers and got her diploma. And so all of the things that formal education gave to my sister as ways to motivate herself and give her a scaffolding of learning work perfectly. And so she became very smart and accomplished. And me on the other hand, the only thing I remember learning in school that actually I use was typing. Because typing was one of those things where I constantly fought my typing teacher saying, well, I can already type with one finger. But then when I learned to type, I realized, wow, this is actually faster. And so that's the one thing that I learned in school where I feel like it was worth the time invested just about everything else. You know, I learned either on my own or I was, they were teaching it in school, but for some reason I didn't learn it in school and I ended up learning it later. So for me, it didn't work. I ended up playing video games. I learned a lot in the video games. One of the first video games I played or it was an online game called A Mud at University of Essex and we sat around and talked about how to program games. And that's how I started to learn how to code software was I started writing games. And so for me, the only stuff that I got excited about was stuff that had to do with play and had to do with something that had an immediate effect on me. So these are two different people with a very similar beginning who take a very different course to learning. Somehow we both have ended up very interested in learning and we both ended up in academia. So somehow I think it was probably my mother's values that sent us, even though we went in opposite trajectories, we kind of ended up in the same place which was very odd. But the reason that I was able to survive with no education I give, attribute all of that to the internet. If it weren't for the internet, I would be a completely sort of unlearned, uneducated person who probably wouldn't have had the opportunities that I did. I think it was, I was really lucky because my parents encouraged me and empowered me to use the internet. But I think the internet is changing everything for everyone, not just for me. And I think it's really almost like another stage in the evolution of man because it's pretty fundamental because you can think about, so I think about the world before internet when things were simple and things were slow. You kind of understand it in communities or physical. And then there's the world after internet where everything is complex, everything is fast. Some of the things are big, some of the things are small. And it's almost as if BI is kind of Euclidean, Newtonian, I probably shouldn't be making too many science metaphors now that I'm in an academic institution. But it's kind of like you think about Newtonian laws as if they're laws and then you turn around and you realize there are little local ordinances that don't apply anymore in the internet. And so when you think about what is this all about and what's causing it? In addition to this massive interconnected network that the internet has done, this is Moore's law. And this is just showing that computers are doubling number of transistors every 18 months. What happens when you put all this together in addition to things like Creative Commons, Free Software, OER, Open Source Software is you've created this environment that's massively reduced the cost of innovation. Because you don't have to write all the software over again. You don't have to write everything over again. You can collaborate at almost no cost. You can distribute at almost no cost. You can produce at almost no cost. So if you can make things at almost no cost, the cost of innovation goes to nearly zero. And this pushes the center of innovation from those big labs like Bell Labs and other places to the edges because you don't need actually to have those resources anymore. If you think about Facebook, Yahoo, Google, they were started by students. They were first connected to university networks. They actually had a product before they raised money. So it's the opposite of the old days. You used to have to raise the money to make with the plan, to develop the idea, to build the thing. Now you build the thing, come up with a plan and raise the money. And so it's completely different. So what it's done is it's taken innovation out of these centrally planned, centrally managed things with lots of resources to the edges where there's no, where there really isn't anything except creativity because the cost of failure is also zero. So this is the first commercial internet service provider in Japan. This also happens to be my toilet. And we stitched together. We're using old computers, a VT100 terminal that only half the screen worked. But we were able at almost no cost to build the first commercial internet service provider in Japan because the internet was all about that. If the telephone company tried to make Google, it probably would have cost half a billion dollars, 10 years, and it wouldn't have worked. And they would never have done this. But we were able to experiment and innovate because the internet is all about open access, freedom to innovate, freedom to connect. And that's the philosophy of the internet. This is David Weinberger from Berkman. He has a book that I love. Small Pieces Loosely Joined is exactly the image of what the internet is. So the opposite of the internet is big institutions centrally managed. Small Pieces Loosely Joined is a very humble thing. Most of the pieces of the internet don't try to control everything. They try to take care of their own thing well. They connect to each other with open protocols, open standards, and no one attempts to know the whole of it. And the idea is that the service that you create, you want it to be used in ways you haven't anticipated, which is the opposite of big institutions, because they hate it when stuff that they make is used in ways that they don't want. And the whole idea of the small pieces loosely joined, that's really kind of the image you start to have when you think about why the internet, which is really an example of the triumph of distributed innovation over centralized innovation, which was the telephone companies. Another person, this is MIT guy, David Clark was one of the first internet architects, and he came up with a phrase that many of you may know called rough consensus running code. So instead of big plans by really smart people anticipating every problem and every possible future, this is let's have a rough consensus, let's build something, let's iterate on it. Because it turns out the reason internet was so successful was that because you can change it later, it was better to iterate it, rather than try to plan the whole thing, which is what the intergovernmental agencies like CCITT and ITU tried to do. But this is a philosophy, it's not a technology, this philosophy starts even before the internet and continues through what I think we should be thinking, the way we should be thinking about how we innovate in learning and education as well. This is John C. Brown, who's another one of my heroes, and he was a chief scientist at Xerox PARC, and he has this word, the power of pull, which I love, which is the idea that don't try to stock all your money, your power, your resources, and manage it from the top. Pull the resources as you need them and innovate on the edges. And don't really try to stock stuff. Don't try to memorize everything, don't learn a computer language 10 years before you're gonna use it. There's all these reasons why stocking information in a changing world is not the way you should do it, stocking things as well. And just gonna give a short story to give you an example of what this is. SafeCats is the sort of startup non-profit thingy movement that I helped start. So March 11th last year was the earthquake in Japan, and it was weird serendipity, because that was a day after the first day of interviews for me at the Media Lab. So I was stuck in Boston, and I had a friend in LA, and I had a friend in Tokyo, and we were trying to figure out what to do. And at the time, I knew nothing about radiation, and I knew nothing about earthquakes, but my wife is in Japan, and I wanted to figure out, is it safe? Should she leave Japan? Should we move herself? So we were panicking. And so what we did is we got on email, and I was able to find through one of my friends, the guy who built the monitoring system after Three Mile Island in Chernobyl, who made Geiger counters, the guy who did sensor networks in Japan, Professor Jun Murai, Ray Ozzie, somehow roped in, because he was interested in this stuff. Bunny, who was a Media Lab graduate, who built the Chumbie, he was a hardware guy, and then a hacker space in LA, a hacker space in Tokyo. This kid who was a hacker in Tokyo. Heyan, who was a designer at IDEO. Peter, who was my friend who did analog devices, a web team, some funding, some Kickstarter stuff. In about a week, we were able very quickly to pull together a team where we were kind of able to get our head around the problem. And we realized that we probably, even at this level, even after we knew more than just about anybody else in Japan about what we needed to do, it grew after a few weeks into a much bigger group. And we used the normal social media tools and we convened a meeting, and there's Katerina there, but convened a meeting in Tokyo, I think about a month later. And we built a network to try to measure radiation. We found out that there weren't enough Geiger counters around, so we'd have to go mobile. And so we figured out, created the Bee Geige, which stands for bento box, and we put them on cars, and we drove around and we wrote software and created these devices so we can actually drive around and measure radiation. We got lots of volunteers, even Tesla gave us cars. That was the great thing. Everybody was giving us stuff, we had a Tesla with a Geiger counter mounted on it. We had a lot of volunteers. I mean, the really neat thing is we were going to these villages and measuring radiation in this place, and government people with hazmat suits had just been there, measured everything and left without telling them what the readings were. And so these people were freaked out. And especially in kind of the rural areas of Japan, they really are kind of afraid of or don't interact with Americans. And we had Americans and Bulgarians. When we went and measured everything, they were really, really happy. And this is just an interesting story because they then created their own nonprofit and came back to me and said, well, because you have helped us so much in understanding and decontamination and everything, we're going to start our own nonprofit. And if this happens anywhere else in the world, we're going to go and say, we're from Fukushima, we're here to help. And this kind of like citizen to citizen connection. And the thing is, a lot of the people online were saying, well, you guys aren't professionals. You shouldn't be doing this. But the thing was nobody was doing it. We found it was much more important that we actually go out and do stuff than worry about whether we were adequately authorized. And we went places we weren't authorized to go, like the exclusion zone. And we created lots of maps. There's a lot of visualization that we need to do because it turns out it's very granular. Like one building on one side of the road can be like 10, 20 times higher radiation than the other. We had one place in the exclusion zone where we had 10,000 times difference in reading just a couple minutes away. We had shown people that villages that had been evacuated from lower radiation to higher radiation, just crazy stuff, right? And you find in the houses, the kids room having 10 times higher radiation because of the radiation coming from the roofs. And we helped people decontaminate. But this is a really important movement. And then even Media Lab students got involved. And one of the students is doing his master's thesis on visualizing the data. So now, one year later, we have 150 volunteers, 3 million readings, measured data points, distributed under CC0 so anybody can use this data. Which is really important because we don't understand the medical effects of radiation and we need to do big data on this. And we have a big network. We use Kickstarter, so we crowd source money to send Geiger counters to Japan, bunny designs. So Geiger counters, it turns out, don't normally sell. People don't innovate them. So there's a burst of innovation around Chernobyl. There was a burst of innovation around Three Mile Island. But the fanciest Geiger counters we have weren't very fancy. So bunny design, state-of-the-art Geiger counter. And it's being built right now. But we opened it under open hardware. So anybody can download the designs for this Geiger counter and build it themselves because we figured it's important for people to be able to build their own Geiger counters. I think open hardware is a tremendously important movement. And people started doing things like making analog synthesizers. And Ars Electronica asked us to show our Geiger counter as art. So there's all these... But the point is to illustrate the power of pull. So you had a bunch of kids with no previous knowledge and, oh my God, what are we going to do? And within a week, we had the world's experts. And any time there was somebody else, somebody said, oh, there's a better... failed robot has a better map than yours. Well, we just called up. Hey, you want to work together? Sure. That's the spirit of the internet. You work together. You share and you build the most impressive team you could ever imagine. And the government could never have pulled a team like this together before the earthquake. And you couldn't pay these people to do what they did. It was only because we were giving away and we were sharing and we had momentum. And now the Japanese government is finally talking to us. I'm not allowed to say this publicly. And I assume this isn't public. But the post office has come and said, we want to put a Geiger counter on every one of our bicycles and measure every street in Japan because we care. And so now finally after a year, the government's coming around and everybody's seeing it. But to me, this is the power of pull because all of the government plans failed. Every plan they had failed. Every scenario they had failed. And they didn't predict any of the stuff that happened. So to me, this resilience and this agility comes from the internet and the ability to pull stuff together. And in fact, because we didn't have any plans, we were able to pull the best people together because if you had, oh yeah, the radiation guy is him, you're not gonna go and find the best person around. You're gonna find the person who has that title in your group. And it may not be the best person at the time. And so to me, this ties a lot to how we need to think about learning because we want our kids to know how to do this. Not remember what the plan, wait, where is the plan? Or I am supposed to have memorized the plan. What do I do now? Which is what was happening in government at the time. So I go back and now I want to question whether this ivory tower and these books is the right scaffolding for how we need to encourage kids to learn how to learn. We talk about different types of scaffolding. I know there's a whole discussion around badges or maybe it's social media and badges. I personally think at the Media Lab, what we're doing is we do this, we just mess around, we build stuff. And you can learn a lot of stuff by building stuff because it gives you just the desire to make stuff is actually enough incentive. Badges are helpful, I like badges personally because it helps me get in the mood, but a lot of kids will just do it just for the sake of building. We call, you know, this is a sort of atelier model. Just to talk quickly about the Media Lab for those of you who don't know, I mean we have one of every animal. We don't have any two professors in the same field and they are all about the power of pull. They're able to reach into different networks and pull information and expertise as we need it, but the whole point is that they connect with each other and we celebrate the diversity of it. We're in the middle of a faculty search and we're using the word anti-disciplinary. We're saying that the faculty member that we were looking for are aggressively creative and anti-disciplinary. And what that means is that if you could do what you wanna do in another school, in a discipline, you shouldn't be at the Media Lab. The Media Lab is for the misfits of society, the places, place where you couldn't do what you want to do anywhere else. If you are the gastronomy person that wants to work in biomechatronics, this is the place for you. And another key thing that we do at the Media Lab is reinvention, this is Timothy Leary who has his roots here too at Harvard, I think. Yes, yes, that's, but one thing I take away from Timothy was question authority and think for yourself. And this doesn't mean just be disrespectful to authority, it means question authority and think for yourself, which is the opposite of being obedient and doing as you're told. And one of the problems I find with a lot of school is that obedience seems to be an important part of what you're trying to do. So we have a group called Lifelong Kindergarten at the Media Lab, because it turns out that kindergarten you learn a lot just by messing around. You learn to read before you get into school. There's a lot of learning that happens before you get to school, but somehow when you get to school, a lot of school is about doing as you're told, giving the right answer. But we don't give Nobel Prizes for learning how to be obedient, we give Nobel Prizes to people who take the biggest authority they can find and throw them over, overthrow the idea. And so even though we celebrate those people who question authority and think for themselves, we're not really designing our learning environments really to teach this. This is actually a hard thing to teach because you can't, how do you assess this? Yeah, so think about this. I want to talk about luck for a second because luck is a funny word. I don't really believe in luck, but a lot of people do. There was an interesting study around luck which where they did, I think it was like 400 people but they asked in the newspaper, if you think you're really lucky or if you think you're really unlucky, sign up. And they collected all these people over years and they did a test where they said, okay, here's a newspaper, count how many photos are in the newspaper and then tell the examiner. Turns out there's 43 pictures in this newspaper. And big huge font on the second page says, there are 43 pictures in this newspaper, tell the examiner now. And then on another page it says, you win $250 if you tell the examiner now. And all the unlucky people don't see those. They count every single picture because they're so focused. And all the lucky people see them. They're like, oh really, wow, 250 bucks? 43 pictures, okay, and they're done first and they get the $250. And this is a really interesting study because luck is kind of, it exists but it's a sort of state of mind. There's another really interesting study where if you look at a circle on a screen and you show little things in the periphery, people will usually see them. But the minute you give a financial return, a reward for watching the dot, peripheral vision goes away. So we talk a lot about focus and the importance of focus but it turns out focus diminishes serendipity. And serendipity is really, really important because serendipity are those opportunities to question authority and think for yourself and do creative things and connect the dots. And in school, a lot of what you're doing is told, don't look out the window, focus on your thing, get the right answer. And I think again, understanding how to teach kids to be lucky and feel lucky is really important because it's also part of this positive attitude. I don't know if you can see this but these are some mushrooms. Some mushroom hunters, if you talk to them, they'll tell you that at some point in mushroom hunting, I think it was Arash, you were telling me about this, I think. But Arash and I talked about this and I studied a little bit and hunters do the same thing but somehow at some point, they pop. You suddenly see them. And people say that the way you see patterns and pattern recognition is you stop looking and suddenly everything in peripheral vision pops up. And I think that is again, a really important thing that you need to teach kids how to do pattern recognition. You learn pattern recognition, not by focusing on, it's like a yoga teacher said, to learn how to meditate, just don't think of elephants. And then suddenly you can't, right? And at school, a lot of it is about how do you get kids to, and part of this is play, part of this is extending the classroom outside of this focus point where they're inside the school. So I wonder whether assessments are the right thing for everything. I think that passion is really important because passion is kind of, this is a Global Voices meeting. I mean, if you're having fun and you're running around, you forget that you're supposed to be performing but in fact, many cases, you'll perform better. So I think that some kids are motivated by assessments like my sister but I just couldn't get that. So I would question assessments. I know everybody's questioning the classroom but at the Media Lab we talk about learning through construction rather than learning through instruction. I really do think that project-driven learning is important. Also, I mean, this is a bunch of us teaching each other elements of ice diving. And peer groups and working together in communities is I think a really important thing. This is a scratch community where all these kids are uploading tutorials for each other. So the kids are the teachers. And one of the things that we're talking about at Media Lab is why shouldn't we have seven billion teachers? So the idea is how do you empower people to be teachers rather than sort of a study group community? And I do think it's that everyone should be a teacher, everyone should be a student and we should be sharing and supporting each other. So I think it's great and important to have institutions and I was just talking to John earlier. Schools are never gonna go away. I know that at some point the school is in the ecosystem, but the minute you start thinking about it from the perspective of the school, you kind of end up with a certain framework. And so I think that it's really important to allow elements of the community to sort of think completely peer to peer and then figure out how does that connect to the school because otherwise you're gonna be so focused that you'll miss a lot of the opportunities in the periphery. And thank you very much. I think I have a few minutes for Q and A. Yes, fantastic. Thank you so much, Joey. It's been very powerful to start the morning. We have mics, we have time for a few questions or reactions. This is just apropos background. We're supposed to focus on the part? No, no, no. This is me feeding sharks. So this is the question in the part. I'm Harris Chan, Bergman Center Fellow. And also prosecutor from Taiwan. And I'm just very impressed with your point of obedience in school. And as a similar culture to Japan, I would like to know what your suggestion in school that how to teach students, especially young students, not to be so obedient or not to teach teachers, not to teach students obedience. I wonder if this is distracting. So I think that's really, really hard. And I think one of the problems is you can't teach it. I remember when I went on tour with Timothy Leary and it was always interesting, we would give a talk and these kids would come up and say, so what should I do, Dr. Leary? And he says, think for yourself. You know, but you can't do it, right? When they're so used to having an authority, tell them what to do. And I think it really is about trying to figure out what is the passion. I mean, the hardest part going to kids like in Japan, I went and I do like this volunteer teaching in junior high schools in rural Japan where they're not allowed to have cell phones. They don't use a computer. And I talk about the internet and they're saying, well, what do we use the internet for? So what's your interest? What's your passion? I don't have one. And it's really hard. You can't, there's nowhere to start. You know, the minute you can have a passion, then you can go from there and drive it. But I think that you need to give people space and give somebody, and you have to encourage them to have this passion. I think you have to start really early because I saw somebody that said, some study that said if you ask a kindergarten class, how many of you draw it? Almost everybody raises their hand. But if you go into like second grade, like a couple people do, I think it's stamped out of you before you get into elementary school. I think you really need to do it kind of really young at kind of the nursery school kindergarten age where you're not crushing their passions. And I think it's really hard to deprogram people later. You can try, I mean, that's what we try to do at the Media Lab by sort of pushing people into these sort of free places. But we actually have a lot of trauma at the Media Lab of students. Well, I guess you have them at university generally. You kids get here and they say, okay, do whatever you want, and they can't, right? So I think it's a really hard problem, but you have to start really, really early. And it's probably cultural rather than prescriptive. Hi, Joy, that was a great talk. So I read in the press that you actually met with the Brazilian president yesterday. She visited the MIT. What would you tell her to reform the Brazilian educational system? Because our system is very formalistic. I would say it's exactly the opposite of what you described. What should I, will you tell her? That's a good question. I mean, I, again, I, the last time I was in Brazil was with, when Gilberto Gil was there. And I think I would definitely lead with the culture stuff and with the sharing. I mean, it's kind of, I'm just saying what you know already, but with the sharing and I think a lot of the sort of growing emerging countries are trying to beat the developed countries in their game. So they start to use the same measurements. So I see like in the Middle East or in Singapore, I can't be a CEO in Dubai because I don't have a college degree. And I can't sign up for a visa on the website in Singapore because I don't have a college degree. So they're taking a lot of the stuff. I mean, people do this generally. So I would suggest don't, and I don't think she's even intentionally modeling herself after the West. But they, but people do, you know, because that's kind of like they see the movies. It's like kids wearing, you know, cowboy hats and it's, it's, it's, I mean, that Japan did that too, right? And I think that that's a, I think, but it's hard because you sort of need role models to invent what you want to do. But I think really you, it's your job to create a local role models and local ways of thinking. And maybe I would do, you know, like, I think it was, as a professor Pescal at Harvard that talks about positive deviants, but look for those small deviant behaviors in society. I mean, and then amplify those rather than trying to change everything at once. Cause I don't think you're going to convince her to change everything, but maybe you can change a couple of schools and then use that as examples. But I think it's really important to do that. I'm Elizabeth Murray from MIT Blossom's program. And I was, you said that it is difficult to reprogram and you mentioned that students come to the media lab. And I just wondered, because certainly most of the students we coming to contact with are similar, what are some of the strategies you've used at the media lab to sort of break that down? So I'm still relatively new. And I'm kind of angling. Well, I think the role of the advisor is tremendously important. You know, if you look at the students, some advisors are really good at taking them through. I think the coaching is really important. So I would replace the mentality of being a teacher with the mentality of being a coach and really teasing out from the student what they're thinking about, what their issues are rather than sort of, because I hear, again, I don't want to, it's hard. I mean, we have this course for new students. And I think some of the professors tend to say, and you're now at MIT and you gotta work hard and it's kind of like this be tough speech. And some professors say, well, what are you interested in? What's your passion? Well, what about doing this? What about doing that? And listening more than sort of preaching, I think is important. And I think that, so that's my personal opinion. I've been trying to meet all the students and tease out what their issues are. Because the world is also, one other thing I would say is that, and this is particularly true at the media lab, our degree is called media arts and science. So it's like, well, what's that? Because when you go and get a job and you say, well, I have a degree, a PhD in media arts and science, doesn't mean anything. If you're an engineer and you've graduated from C-Sale or something, they basically know what you are 80% and you basically know what they want 80%. So there's actually kind of a career path through most of the things. So actually working hard, you still feel confident that if you get out the other end, there's something for you. At the media lab, we have so much diversity that that also is a source of anxiety because when they get out, there aren't job listings for media arts and science. So what I told the PhD students, the first year PhD students that came in a couple of months ago, I said, well, imagine that when you're graduating, I take your degree away. Say, psych, you don't get it. And I said, you have to be able to turn around to be like, I still am glad I spent five years here. I learned so much. I had so much fun. And the PhD and the thesis and all this other stuff should be scaffolding to help you learn, but that should not be your motive for getting out. Other parts of MIT, those degrees actually matter more. At the media lab, it doesn't really matter. So you gotta get out of that mode. That's what I've been coaching my students. Hi, Joy. There's one more question. Hi, Joy. I'm wondering in the spirit of what you've described as kind of the replication that happens with open source, how can you replicate what's happening at media lab and create maybe educational artifacts from the process or from the outputs that some of the people in this room could take into schools at a secondary level especially? Well, John and I were secretly planning this idea, which is I really have fallen in love with our labs. And we have a woman, Leah Beakley, who's been making electronics with crafts. We're doing kids are making furniture. And we're going out into the community and teaching elderly people, teaching children. And the amount of learning that happens when kids are building stuff together is amazing. And you can start really early. So what I would suggest to any K to 12 or any kind of school is have a lab that's multi-generational. That's a chunk of the curriculum. So like a couple of hours a day and have kids, the first thing they do is have to build the chair that they're gonna sit in. And really just have this, and we could help set it up, but make a fab lab, make a whole bunch of things where people build stuff and then tie your learning. So I'm a scuba diving instructor. And what I do whenever it is a key thing about scuba diving, which I love, is like you're learning Boyle's law because in an hour we're gonna be in the pool and if you don't remember this, you're gonna drown. And if you drown, you're not gonna get to go on to the reef tomorrow. And everything I say ties into a practical skill they're gonna have to do physically within an hour that ties into some fun thing they're gonna get to do the next day. And everything is tied that way. And so I could imagine teachers saying, okay, well you know, you've gotta learn this because later when you're in the shop, this is gonna help you figure out how to design a chair that you're gonna be sitting in for a whole year. So you better pay attention. And not all kids need this, but also the multi-generational thing I think helps the peer teaching. So I would build, and so it crosses over from some home ec crafts and shop and you'd mix it all up so that there's a lot of gender mixing as well. But that to me I think would be great if people could do that. We'd be happy to help. Thank you so much. It's been fantastic. Thank you too. Thank you.