 Hello, my name is Peter Scheroschi. I am the director of the Rights Reporter Foundation and the editor of the Drug Reporter website and today This is our third live stream session from here Amsterdam at the International AIDS Conference and today we will Discuss something which is usually overlooked at HIV conferences And it's about criminalization of drug users and drug policy reform and I have a guest speaker here with me David Zubeliani who is an activist from Georgia Republic of Georgia and he is a member of the white noise movement which was which had got some international publicity recently So David, you know that Georgia is actually one of the most repressed one of the most repressive drug policies And I just saw some data that In the past seven years, there were three hundred thousand street People were street drug tested and it's like the 10% of the Georgian population. It's just amazing or unbelievable How how how how get you how did you get here? I mean why why Georgia is so repressive in that where this repression is coming from Thank You Peter and first of all I want to thank you for what you do because you bring news and reports and from very macroscopic perspective to all of us and let us reflect on original things and global things and not not only working on local sense and that's very important piece of work you are doing and full support from from activists on that and Thanks for inviting me also and well, I don't know why why Georgia got so strict drug policy, but I Mean after breaking down Soviet Union, we had number of civil wars and we had the break of the regions of society Abkhazia, which Russia has later announced as independent countries like and we had basically a war with Russia And during those times the heroin supply Was it its maximum I think and You know Every second every everybody every family had someone sent to war, you know Fighting for a home country Many of those people got on drugs and Herons been supplied easily Surly conflict zones With the help of the militaries from both sides and Russian Federation. I guess also So when the time for rebuilding the state came With previous governor Mikhail Sakashvili He started with the Queen Queen projects and one of this was to combat the criminal because after the war Everybody had a gun You know people were being killed in streets and stuff like that so Sakashvili said zero tolerance to Criminal and we were happy about that because he was he was the leader who was able to carry out their firms We were naive also. We didn't think about the drug users back then but under the zero tolerance policy basically later on we learned is there's the most of the people who Affected with that policy most of the people who has incarcerated. It was the drug users because drug use was basically a Easy easy entry point for police to reach this to reach out to people they wanted to see in prisons and send them to prison Heron supplies also were cut Those who escaped the prison they went to the So called, you know, they went into a hide they went to basements basically and we wouldn't see syringes used syringes anymore and entrances of the living blocks But but obviously drug use didn't disappear. It just got more hidden and That was the time when we really first saw drug users Shifting from one drug to another drug and usually as it happens to the other drug that people are forced to Go to is this more poisonous having worse Effect on the health of these people It was we had we had there's a morphine like the so-called crocodile well known in our region basically, it's it's a drug that's that's prepared in a kitchen like, you know environment with a lot of Risks of you know making a mistake somewhere and then having a final product very poisonous so a lot of people lost their lives or their health and General attitude also from public was that you know the drug use is something really horrible something really bad it took us More than a decade to create the awareness and it it wasn't easy because it's in its previous government It wasn't really okay to to come up on street and demand a decriminalization or something like that Max would do right a petition or something and nobody would pay attention There were some NGOs of course who are working but their voices were not really heard and they were also regular associations that came as part of the bigger umbrella global fund Initiative to combat the HIV and hep C and Those associations were there, but also they weren't really able to having a critical impact on how the politics is done Only in 2015 end of 15 and beginning of 16 we had a Great opportunity to bring the issue or a political agenda as a very important issue and that was Made possible with the constitutional court decision that undermined the whole legitimacy of the drug policy the back then October 2015 the constitutional court said that it was a case of one of one of the wide-knit White-nosed the movement leader back at the cash really who had us up to 70 grams of marijuana at his place when he was searched And he was pausing five to twelve years in prison and and that was a great campaign run by his friends Saying back eyes on criminal back as it was very viral and even my you know people from our parents generations would join in and like entire like Community the wider community not only the drug users got into the campaign and they would say yeah back eyes on criminal Everybody was like yeah, he doesn't belong to prison. Something is wrong with with the system But this case turned out to be the most critical one crucial one that changed everything that really allowing us to Run the advocacy programs later on and campaigns and coastal court Said yeah, this guy doesn't belong to prison the the law that sends him to prison Is against the Constitution and that was the biggest achievement that that really Crafted the whole shape and shaped the whole whole campaign later on that was also the beginning of white noise movement the whole idea of establishing an organization that can and the movement that can achieve the decriminalization of drug users drugs as many people say We saw that that was feasible project Because we had enough arguments generated locally but also internationally But also we had this legal provision from constitutional court that was giving a leverage for our future campaigns So we said okay Something we didn't believe was ever possible. We can't do it now We can do it now and once we got Becca saved we realized that we can do a bigger project So we said let's do white noise and those Becca said you had to call it white noise white noise is the You know when you turn the TV to a channel where you don't get a signal and it's really unpleasant really uncomfortable We have to turn it down That's the white noise we said we will we'll make a noise that will be totally uncomfortable for you guys The government the society in general society. I mean they need needy to listen listen to what we were talking about And it worked in part partially we didn't get the criminalization yet But what we really got and maybe maybe more importantly, it's more important Is the support from general public? I wouldn't say we have like 80% support or 90% support But the last two polls that were carried out by independent organizations show that more than 50% of population is in favor of Decriminalization and depanization removing criminal sanctions removing prison sanctions From just being a drug user and being a drug user means consuming a drug and having a drug in certain amounts That that can be seen as an adequate amount and so these two basically articles Drag use and drug possession should become Decriminalized and that the project is now ongoing. It's a bit slow project, but we are hopeful that we will get there I gave it a long long answer. Sorry So How how can we just imagine like how how this street drug Drug tests happening in Georgia. How do they happen? Like someone is walking on the street and the policeman comes and just picks you up and takes you to the police station How do they select people? Anybody can be a victim or how does it? Good question because we always talk about some you know stuff that goes on In our home country, but that's really hard to imagine because really we would say sometimes that This this street testing this massive street testing proactive one Was the Georgian know how to the war on drugs in the worldwide war on drugs? George also contributed greatly to that war with that innovation. Basically it was with zero tolerance policy once the mission secretary said everybody to prison everyone to prison and They needed mechanism to get that I mean people who had we were like obvious drug users and we're part of the dealing or whatever They were tackled first, but they needed to fill up the prison So what they what do you do then you start looking into people's organisms and molecules and cells and city Remanings of illicit drugs there. So they came up with the idea to massively test people on street and They would do numbers like 50,000 40,000 a year That's like one two percent of population. Most of these people are males Young males, you know something that you suspect could be could fall in a most of the drug users might fall fall in and It was totally up to Policeman's subjective individual Doubt by looking at you You know if I'm a policeman I look at you and say oh, I think he might be on drugs Or he might be a drug user. So I come and I have all right to take you to stop you from where you're going Maybe you have an appointment Maybe you're going to an airport to fly someone they wouldn't care. They would say just follow us to a testing unit You get tested there. If it's the first time that they find it's an administrative offense You pay five hundred dollars. That's like around 200 euro. Maybe and the second time within a year There will be a criminal offense I Possibly sending you to prison So what we really realized later on looking into statistics was that there was a growing trend of policemen coming back to people whom they've Detected ones have having a drug having having a drug drug use incidents incident and they would try to reach these people again within one year In with the help to criminalize them because of course policemen also know that people who use drugs do not stop using drugs just because they had a You know interaction at one point with police forces, you know, they wouldn't stop using drugs So there was a good opportunity for them, you know where they could kind of fill up the statistics So we would see people Arrested on like two days remaining until this one one year get Go goes by so like like policemen really looking into records and think okay Whose term is expiring and we were just knocked knock the door and say we have a doubt that you have a drug so that was really horrible and later on when Georgia was joining you I Think it's east neighborhood is neighborhood. What is called? Is the European neighborhood project something or it was a vis all of those was economic again, I don't say it again At some point there was a pressure international pressure also Georgia was joining some international treaties with the European Union as Part of the conditionality was to review this mechanism that basically what Georgia did said that okay Policemen is not really allowed anymore to take a subjective initiative You know just just buy on his own doubt to check someone So that's removed But the mechanism they implemented doesn't really change much They said that there should be an operative operative information They should have some indication from someone that I have a drug in order for them to to be able to come to me and look into my urine and It didn't change because they would easily get they get get that you know Operative information if two policemen are walking by one would call the central Police unit saying that I saw drug users there So the record would be there the other policemen would immediately go and say there is a record that you might be a drug You so basically nothing really changed what really happened later on is that? Activists found a possibility within the Constitution one of the articles of Constitution saying that you are allowed Entitled not to give a testimony that can be used against you and that was like extended That principle was extended to the biological sample as well So you are entitled not to give a biological sample if that can be used against you and we had a president Like that and court allowed that so that we started to advocate that we have we started to give the information But now you have all rights not to cooperate with police on that case if they want your your urine But obviously many many people Especially young people who have had no no experience of dealing with police They are so frightened when it's the first time police arrest you you what you just want to Then then they have the good policemen bad policemen, you know good cop bad cop system that every way You better do that otherwise your brother sisters family members Everyone we're here and we will continue pressurizing on you So you just you just better do that still many many people would cooperate. It is so hard for us But as the numbers We're growing on our side people not cooperating because we white noise also would would go there We wouldn't let anyone behind we just go to these testing units with with video cameras and Facebook It's your right, you know and policemen would just we just try to you know Out and we wouldn't let go we wouldn't come out so it was like constant struggle constant like physical fight going on And we had that that was the also way to gain more and more supporters to white-nose movement membership I wouldn't say that this drug-testing Street drug has gone for it's like really minimized in First year of the current government taking over from the previous Within Now now this number is down to 20,000 so that's a certain certainly an achievement But but but it's not eradicated in our reform package We had new mechanisms of for drug testing and this like massive street test It would be totally removed, but police was against it. I don't know what the parliamentarians will find a decision will be on that Incredible impact and what you had some results and So what can you recommend to other activists in other countries like what are the lessons learned? What methods do you use? How do you use the media? So anything you can share with with activists who would like to do similar campaigns in other countries? sure First thing is I mean before I start the techniques because the techniques can be read on you know You can Google and see lots of materials what you can do But that alone is not enough there's no recipe and if you do that the campaign is gonna work the first and most important thing for me at least My personal view is that with white noise movement was that we had this freaky belief Almost irrational belief that we can win this battle and not in the long run but in a short run Something that was missing all the time before and therefore all the campaigns done before didn't have much power and strength once we had this Like full belief that we can get there and and that believe us back to is our plans and whatever That was empowering us so much that we can do the job But also we started with the big momentum with the constitutional court decision So we had we had this you know we can do it and that was giving us enormous power enormous power And we had horizontally managed You know what nice was there has been and this is horizontally managed group No, no one person who is leading if we have situational leaders, whatever but Like any decision is taken by everyone We wait until everyone is on board You know and we would spend endless hours discussing tiny details Of what color to use here What kind of font to use in this in this poster or whatever and we decide that way and we learn That we learned on the way that in order your decisions to have any impact Those decisions should be packed with participation with real meaningful Involvement of people who are around for the kind of stakeholders of the initiative So that's hard to do but that's possible more or less And that would be one accommodation to activists that do not detach yourself from from the supporter base from the drug users For which and on behalf of which you are you're campaigning just always have them With strong say in your final decisions This way your your your steps will be like really powerful and at some point we really realized that the power was with us We really were filling that power and we would say we are a power center now And because we have more than two percent of people following our page So we said whatever we say it counts politicians are Commenting on that so it's like at some point we we've become a real power center that's seen from above and then then it's much easier to Follow the steps you might hear on any website regarding how to do the good campaign Otherwise social media of course, you know, we live in a 21st century It's hard for us. It's costly for us to reach everyone So we can use then we have to use the social media and technology That's given to us in a good way in a nice way to reach these people But the trap here is that do not rely on social media only because you might at points Leave in a bubble because your social media environment might give you an impression that the country is Going this way you're thinking that way but in reality when it comes to final decisions or elections or voting or whatever You see the reality is a bit different when the critical times come You feel that people are not Not everyone is on the on board So you have to balance between you know this this channels that you have to you have to know that This channels might not represent the whole picture. So I have to have a physical presence also we would spend a lot of time meeting students clubgoers injecting drug users with the associations LGBT people environmentalists and Later on we started to realize that these people started to come on our events. Also, there was a great cross-solidarity So the recommendation about you would be like find synergies find possibilities to show empathy to receive empathy because that's the most valuable thing that you have in your Activist like appreciation from people that that's what gives you and a power to stand up at 5 a.m.. If that is the urgent call to leave everything behind and go to policy in it and fight for someone and something we have done a lot of times and something that that helps right now is to grow a lot even when we had parties like on weekends and We all love partying or whatever at some point we would say Someone needs to stay sober tonight because there might be a case that someone is arrested So what we say then I wasn't able to come because I was high Be responsible and because if you if you've taken this Responsibility you have to be there and that's a very cost a thing. I have a family three kids wife, I had a well-paid job Extremely well-paid job Which I left because I thought that I needed to put more time to activists like a hundred percent in there I wasn't I wasn't able to see my kids all the time And I was always tired with that but I had enormous energy Really spending day and nights working for for for the idea So unless you get that kind of sparkle Unless you are infected massively with activism your activism is not going to lead you anywhere And once you get infected there is no control set from there. You stay there. So That's that's the thing and at the recommendation again to activists something really important from my own experience is that In times go and important changes Materialized yet You might get moments of frustration You might become a big, you know You might lose the belief you had in the beginning and that's what the system wants System wants you to see without that belief without that, you know, crazy sparkle That that fills you up with the energy because when you are not filled up with an energy It's so much easier for them to shut you down so try to Have that in mind try to renew the body The team of activists and supporters so that there is always fresh energy there Because when you are tired, you might need a break really, you know, I need a break sometimes to come back with your with your great energy So plan plan for a long time rather than like two weeks or one month or three months or six months can panic because the thing we are Fighting with is a big big big thing and it's not just one single project that can be carried out successfully That's a long marathon and I started to understand that's coming on this Conferences like these where people come here like for like last 20 30 40 years, you know Thank you so much and also I wish you luck with your work in the future Let's keep up the good fight and I hope that we can replicate that in other countries what you are doing because it's really amazing So thank you very much and thank you for those who viewed us