 Yn ymwybod i chi'n cyfweld ar y tro i gyd, yn yr yr yr yr yr yr yr? Oh, ok. Oh, fawr. Wel, rydw i'n fwy o bwysig. Yn... Yn... Yn, ond, ymddangos ymwysig i chi gyd. Yn... Rydw i chi gyd yn ei wneud ymwysig ymwysig i gyd yn ei wneud ymddangos ymddangos ymddangos ymwybod i chi gyd ymwybod i chi gyd. Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Yn... Felly we've kind of got an idea of what this could look like which we could talk you through and then if you had some questions and thoughts then perhaps we could answer those and discuss those. Sure, so go ahead. Okay, great. Well, the context of this story is that Taiwan is successfully or is successfully countering the virus and using the power of digital democracy tools and countries around the world are looking to Taiwan and reaching out to Taiwan to learn and apply this approach. And in terms of on the world stage you are a tech and cultural icon in Taiwan and then this success is expanding abroad and people are looking to you to your leadership and things such as Taiwan can help is this kind of global outreach for Taiwan. So as the world continues to face these challenges it's crucial that the world understands that in order to replicate this success and understanding of the approach and the philosophy and your personal approach and your personal philosophy is key to this. But other countries to really understand. So I realise we haven't actually introduced ourselves so we can introduce ourselves and as an international filmmaking team and Chenyu, you'd like to introduce yourself? Well, I think Audrey knows. I've known Chenyu since before she had memory. Because Charlotte and I have worked on a few different projects from UK to Taiwan already and now she suddenly lives here. So we just wrapped up a film project with Guo Yi Hui. So I think we are certainly quite familiar with working together as an international team. Yes, yes. We worked on projects with Chenyu's work connecting music culture in Asia and in England and then we worked together on those projects, editing. Apart from that, because when we work together you will be more like research oriented type of projects but Charlotte's work as a filmmaker for Oxfam for three, four years which sent her to Iraq with Ethiopia and India. Yes, yes. It was wonderful to be introduced to Chenyu back in Liverpool. And actually recently Chenyu's more of a local than I am because I haven't lived in Liverpool for a while. And we worked on some projects together about Liverpool culture like The Beatles and the China Wind music and people connecting with it in England. But my other work has been work that engages with communities who don't often have a voice and don't have the tools to advocate and push for their needs and my studies were in law and community participation through theatre. So I took that and applied that to filmmaking. So often and sometimes that can be as simple as just the lens through which you see the power dynamics of a filming relationship. So often if I'm working with an organisation such as Oxfam who I was filming with in telling stories of conflict in Nigeria around Boko Haram or in Iraq the power dynamics of a group coming in with a media agenda from a charity and being Western and speaking mainly English. How to engage participation and how to tell a story that people whose story you're telling want to tell and how to draw that from them and work with them. That's kind of the lens that I bring to filmmaking and I worked in Iraq for six months and that was really wonderful because it's often quite heartbreaking to launch into a situation and sometimes it's a crisis emergency like a conflict or a drought or something so I have to kind of go to the desert in Ethiopia and meet with people and gather stories and then go back and edit them because we're trying to raise money but to be able to be in a place for six months and engage with families and tell a story it was really wonderful to be able to get to know people and tell stories in that way. So we bring our different kind of lenses to this project which we hope would contribute well because we have an international eye and we're both used to working cross-culturally and knowing what Western audiences are interested in and what gets their interest but also with a human-centered approach. So in terms of a story and the journey which we're interested in telling is that we love to show Taiwan's flourishing digital democracy, social innovation and virus prevention strategies through your life and work. We could start with kind of a montage of past interviews and bringing people up to where we are now in terms of how Taiwan has successfully dealt with the virus and how it has combated misinformation and things like that but then starting to show what the rest of 2020 brings, what the challenges bring and how that same approach that has been used is moving forward and continuing to develop the virus response or developing digital democracy. So we thought possible subjects that we could follow but we thought it would be wonderful to talk about your childhood and your work with the Sunflower movement and leading up to it but also branching off into your philosophy and perhaps using creative ways for audiences to reflect and react to that such as using narration with poetry recital but combining it with animation for a chance for things like that to sink in and reflect because it's about showing the philosophy and the approach as well as the practical outcomes of the work that you've done. But we thought kind of showing the digital democracy in action such as meetings that are tackling misinformation and developing plans and strategies showing those conversations, showing how the approach is applied and then also perhaps looking into any challenges that there might be and I've read that you see yourself as a facilitator and a conduit and that there are people who want you to be more of a leader more kind of telling others what to do and what is that clash and what keeps you focused on prioritising being a facilitator and not grabbing power or using your ego because that's a politician that a lot of the time we don't see and it's very interesting so what are the grapplings that you have to deal with and then we were thinking about it would be great to show your outreach to the international world through Taiwan can help what talks are you giving and can we be behind the scenes of those talks and see people's response to that and perhaps look at international hackathons and what your approach is through that and how that builds better participation and then looking at the apps that you've developed it would be really interesting to see behind the scenes of meetings where you're kind of dealing with the collaboration and voluntary collaboration and how this facilitative nature actually looks like in practice and discussing past successes with the wonderful saying of your work that it's fun and fast, fair and fun so to see that in action and recount past things such as the you only have one but man and the great response to the young boy who had the pink mask and stories like that that really illustrate your work and then also our thought was perhaps to follow a few people that you've interacted with and spotlight their lives so that we can see for an international audience a wider Taiwan in terms of people's life and also their thoughts about being citizen participants and the responsibilities that they feel or the role that they feel they have so that's kind of our thoughts as to the structure of the story of what we could or would like to do and then in order to create this and have something to pitch to a streaming service because we have contacts in the Guardian film documentaries so with Netflix and we thought to film some meetings and some examples and put that together into like a pitch a 10 minute pitch document short film we could then use it to see to give the opportunity for a streaming platform to invest in the film as a longer wider film so yeah and then we thought the type of audience that would be interested in this film the international audience would be type of people who are interested in democratic things and positive change in the world and would watch things like the knockdown the house or Joshua versus super powers oh yeah teenager versus super power and the great hack and kind of very people led documentaries that tackle a wider issue that people are very interested and concerned about but find it very difficult to engage with so it's great to engage with through a person so yeah so those are our thoughts and we have them aside from streaming platform contacts and interests to kind of bring them on board we have a standing invitation to screen the film from the Taiwan Studies programme at the University of Nottingham with some strong links there and so us and more screening opportunities so those are our thoughts and we'd love to know if you had any questions or any thoughts on it so there's multiple teams working on very simple things right now we have from France right Elaine the filmmaker has been pretty doing the same play and he filmed for example my conversation with Brian's one year so and some of my meetings and shadow me in the social innovation meetings and things like that and actually our filmmaker director also main contributor actually to the current version of the B-Taiwan Civic Participation website is doing all the footage taking of all the major like collaboration meetings preparatory meetings of the mostly open provision office of meetings and so on to get the footage out and so of course there's raw footage and there's this edited narrative that you're talking about and I think the angle that you're trying to present is pretty good but just yesterday Andrew Lyn at wire.com published something very much like the angle that you've just described and GD on Lewis Cross also did the preliminary analysis of a lot of that work for Wired as well Miller for BBC click did a long episode before the coronavirus but then the BBC click follow up with another episode so as it is not to discourage you but to say that there's a lot of footage to work with as materials and the good thing is that every single one that I've just named agreed to share either the transcript or the recording of their sessions with me under creative commons meaning that you can freely remix those works but then it also means it is a challenge you have to offer fresh perspectives and building on their work and so that's what we're looking at so as with any other director or filmmaker my condition is the same so this conversation is to be published on YouTube under creative commons and whatever footage that we work with ourselves and provided you or with you filming us need to be provided as creative commons education for other people to remix as well that's my only condition really Okay, yeah and the work that the French filmmaker is making is there a particular work? Yeah, I think he did one on Jiaxiao Wang and I think it was I'm not sure whether it's on Netflix or some other streaming device and it's all very confusing it is to be festivals and then the theatres and then the streaming services but now the order could be any order so we don't know so I don't know who is here pitching too but I think it's at the editing stage now and so for a BBC clique of course they've already aired a few episodes but we're also looking for future collaborations as well and that's the two main kind of outlets but of course if you would like to work with more outlets that's good there's also another team quite independent because they're crowdfunded headed by Adi, the YouTuber and also Jiqi, Jiqi and Aaron Niea and the designer they are the team behind that can help us so they've posted this near times advertisement but then build a website which was the main product and then people start the YouTubers I mean community started to reuse the materials they have and make trending videos that talk about how it's counter coronavirus efforts which went actually quite trending in many different cultures and Jiqi probably knows about that network and so I believe they would like to see this to also make some preliminary footage I did an interview with Mr Reeves pretty much the same topic but I think they could not at this moment find a mainstream outlet and so they have footages but I don't think they are doing more releases at this moment but of course that's also a friendly alliance that you can work with because they've interviewed quite a few people and that's off the top of my head I'm sure if I check the transfer website I can find more but these are the kind of concurrent teams and how did the teams negotiate access to meetings did they I mean would if we were to be able to film you yeah my open office I was like basically anything that takes place in social innovation lab soon as you check in advance and get consent from the other people who shows up in the same space is filmable it's very clear right so if it's within the cabinet property then we do our own filming and then we release it on our YouTube channel and then of course always under Creative Commons introduction which means that you can just work with that material but you don't get to bring your camera again but of course we are bringing cameras everywhere 360, Insta360 virtual reality and so on and there's a lot of footages but if you like your own footages then that's the social innovation lab it's an open space it's a park really there's no walls so feel free just to stream whenever you feel like and we'd also love to know kind of the rest of the year what challenges do you see coming up what do you think your key moments might be yeah the presidential happens is always a good lots of good optics and visuals and plenty of footages as well and each of the presidential hackathon teams carry their own very distinct story of cross-sectoral collaboration so that's the main event that I would encourage you to look to especially the award ceremony this year at the presidential hackathon also includes international teams as well as the counter coronavirus hackathon and so that's a lot of good stories another idea of course next year is the annual flag it's starting early next year we're going to have another presidential hackathon and hopefully these vaccines figures crossed it will be an even larger gathering okay great so the next presidential hackathon is the beginning of next year yeah so the process of course starts really early and then it goes all the way to September or something okay so it's currently taking place in the September is there a calendar? yeah it's a war ceremony you can check the website okay wonderful and with the filming yeah I'm wearing the presidential hackathon t-shirt okay nice that's great and with the filming would you be interested in shadowing you about in your everyday life perhaps going out for a meal and interacting with members of the public or seeing how it's like yeah there's plenty of footage just like that on our YouTube channel so I would encourage you to do that first like check the footage that you have in your access but as long as it's in the social innovation lab that's okay feel free to come I mean people do a lot of selfies and filmmaking there anyway so it's a free for all space and that's because it's designed as a open space yeah okay I think the visuals something I've seen recently is a photo shoot very fashionable one a lot of it is done in the social innovation lab the initial batch by the random persons on Twitter suddenly banding together and saying I really want to take a shot of Audrey's pictures and I just reply saying sure why not that initial batch was all taken in the social innovation lab I think the vote set was also in the social innovation lab UDN and many other mainstream media a verse which is going to be a new magazine it was also intelligent in the social innovation lab okay I was thinking that since you mentioned that there has been a lot of footages available and especially I think the last one last thing that you mentioned is it new because you said that they have some footages but they haven't really had a chance to maybe think about other mainstream they have two batches of footages one is just people, popular YouTubers interviewing and also our previous vice president did a crash course on epidemiology so you can check out all the footages they produce and the YouTubers' remixes of them in Taiwan can help that us but then they worked with a role at SCC did another set I think they did an interview with me also in our social innovation lab and also started drafting some plans but I don't think they have distribution arranged yet for the second set and they're cross funded so they have to make an account to the crowd that is a good use of their money Do you think that we will be good for Charlotte and myself obviously helping her to reach out to the team and then see that if they would want some monitoring I'm sure you can talk to Darius and Adi you probably already have their contact anyway I think I do but yeah they're easy to reach and I think Taiwan can help that us it's really interesting because it's a by itself they go sorry to tell like if your film talks about Taiwan can help that us I'm sure they'll be very happy because that's like what I call track zero diplomacy so it's really visible started multiple Twitter trendy hashtags and our own foreign service including myself referring to that all the time literally in the pre WHA video conference with 14 jurisdictions that's the main go to website that I invite them to check but our government has zero control over that website so it's our flagship like diplomatic corpse but it's cross funded and we have no control over it so that by itself is a really good story and the management of that website is that taking place in the social innovation that people who work there no it started on this platform called Zerdo and I believe Jane is somebody on it so they came as well well Jane you know it's everything it just so happens that we know it's at the farm very early so anyway yeah I had a also CC licensed public conversation with the person who worked with through their cross funding campaign so it literally started on a front funding website wonderful and in the rest of the year it's kind of the presidential hackathon preparing for that in the next year and then are there any other key challenges for Taiwan that you think are coming up that you will be involved in I don't know it's a miracle right so nobody is sure of what will look like for the event of pandemic itself the vaccine may get developed very quickly or it may not arrive by the end of the year we may expand the travel bubble significantly or it may not because of the third wave or fourth wave but we don't know and so what we are doing is to be as prepared as we can to stimulate local tourism and local economy and hope for the best in terms of the vaccine research I'm sure if you ask every other COVID team around the world they are pretty much conveying the same message okay do you have any other thoughts or questions no I think that's great so I think what we can do is to kind of plug into the research of the existing photos a bit more and there's chance I think we can develop something around that as a pitch and especially I think I feel that I'm quite interested in exploring the opportunities with collaborating with other teams and also collaborating with our filmmaker our filmmaker is very creative and actually the main branding of PDIS the kind of open government ideas that were at the beginning quite hard to convey directors and found all the very funny interesting ways to convey those messages so yeah he may have his own thoughts around that as well so yeah I think it sounds like there's multiple teams are working on this which is great because I think it shows that people are interested but in terms of the outlet for yourself or your team do you think that there's any type that would from your point of view be kind of useful or be kind of strategically or something that because I think that a lot of the footage like the idea of open source footage creative comments it means that it's transparent which is I think it's very important for the message interpretation so even if people who make hip-hop songs or the Dos Monos a band from Japan literally a rap band just took part of my interview footage and remixed it into their rap songs and that's not the kind of film that I imagined when we were producing this material but the great thing about creative comments is that they don't have to ask for my permission and that's the kind of open-ended creativity that I seek to foster and so at the moment that the most practical platforms are still YouTube and the usual channels like Flickr and so on but I mean that's just for the discoverability if people curate and edit and post it on wire and so on of course they tend to work with the target audience of that outlet at which point of course it becomes mostly their creation and I'm just the source material that they use Are you giving any talks internationally to any groups in the next month or two? Literally every day so If you check our PDIS YouTube channel you'll see that pretty much every day there's just conversations with international audiences as well as domestic ones Great sounds like there's a wealth of things to dig into and it's a great story something great for people to see and understand and I highly recommend for example if you're in your research you read a recent Wired article there's also a you can view source you can go back to this website and see the actual transcript that my conversation with the recorder how it looks like one is that there may be things that they omitted because it doesn't fit their target audience but you can nevertheless reuse and expand and the second thing is that the source material tend to hyperlink into other source materials each conversation with a professional investigative journalist serves this kind of a snapshot or outline of the available source materials out there because it does just too much material so anything that's more like a index or outline saves you time In the article when the journalist was exploring that my upbringing, dalwism, things like that was more interesting I think more interestingly your philosophy as being a facilitator and then the discussion that there are people who wish for you to kind of take a different approach Andrew Lennon had like five paragraphs he voted to get very attention and is that something that you see in your work that people discuss that with you in your work or is it more people talk about you to other people about that? It's on my head so how much force do I make of my suggestions on one side it could be coercive like it's my way or highway on the other side it could be purely nudging or suggestive but in the middle there's a whole spectrum of tonality that I can attribute to the messages that I send across but it's mostly in my head Do you have people in a work context or people when you're engaging with civil society saying that they wish that you would behave in a different way or show a different type of leadership? Any number of people saying that right now so if I just do a search right now on social media I said literally in the past one hour there's more than 100 people making concrete suggestions about my work and so it's literally hundreds of suggestions every hour and do you allow any of those to sway you? Of course if it's a better idea then I just take immediately and in terms of other politicians are they struck by your approach or have they changed their approach in response? Well I think this fast fare fun I merely describe what's out there so it's not like they hear fast fare fun and decided to be fast fare fun it's more like I summarise the political response system on virus pandemic and also the infodemic and it's a way that I summarise these learnings it's not like I'm a leading indicator I'm more like a trailing indicator in a sense that this happened and I did some theorisation Do you find it interesting that there's this political culture and understanding of leadership and there's a contrast with how you're conducting yourself do you see that kind of day to day do you see the difference? No I don't think there's certainly a contrast but it's not a difference the thing is that the contrast basically there's like vertical ministers that does this kind of reporting and there's a commanding relationship there's a top-down button-up because the ministries are structured vertically and we as horizontal ministers our ministry portfolio works horizontally in the sense that we look at different values and co-create common values out of those very different positions that each ministries take so just by the nature of the work of being a horizontal minister it basically says that my main contribution is going to be connecting those different pillars so it's contrasting of course there's some parts of the building that are connecting bridges there are some parts of the building that are pillars that are vertical but you wouldn't say these are differences like it is the bridges trying to convince the pillars to become bridges but anyway it's all a supporting structure I think that's part of the interview that was most interesting because it boils down to you staying strong in your philosophy and your approach and there's a culture out there that could change it but staying focused but that's what horizontal ministers do I'm sure the other seven horizontal ministers would say the same and the point here is that there are people who enjoy working horizontally more and there are people who enjoy working vertically more and for example when people in Japan compare Maine to their IT minister I often say it's not a good comparison because we do have a vertical minister or science and technology and what I'm doing is connecting the technology to for example education connecting the technology to for example health but I'm not by myself the health minister or the science and technology minister and these two ministers are also my father's age so there's room for those vertical pillars and horizontal bridges and that's my main point it was a really great article I've been reading lots of other articles and just haven't gotten to the meat of it and then this one without last night and I was just really able to dig in and see your work so I agree with Andrew's take on this and then we can go in and make some networks and make some plans and I think there's a lot out there to dig into OK awesome Thank you Thanks very much