 Okay, five or 10 seconds. So hello to the audience of four round. This is Noemi Herzog here, a theater critic from Hungary. And as I'm an old follower of Roma Heroes Festival, and I cooperated a lot with Independence Theater Hungary, who we have today in today's panel, I will moderate today's discussion. And I am lucky to introduce you the participants of today's conversation. We have here Mihaila Dragan, an actress, playwright and director who lives and works in Bucharest, in Romania, and also in Berlin, Germany. In 2014, she founded Drew Blippen Theater Company in collaboration with other robot actresses, a revolutionary theater according to writers. Drew Blippen's performances have a feminist agenda. We have Sebastiano Spinella here. Polyhedric artists from Italy. As his work, interest and research touches various disciplines, his nearly 40 years of experience in theater includes puppet theater, street performance, horse trunks, circus, comedia dell'arte, prose theater, activist theater, anthropological theater, sensorial theater and social theater. We have Rodrigo Balog, from Hungary, founder and director of Independence Theater Hungary, is a writer, director and initiator of the Roma Heroes Festival and writer and director of many plays and shows. His theater company, I would like to say, a little land of normality in Hungary where Roma and non-Roma artists work together. And finally, but not least, Martin Illisch, who is the operative leader of the Independence Theater Hungary, a sociologist, dramaturg and educator, and also an interpreter in our present conversation. Martin has been also involved in Roma Heroes Festival as an initiator and organizer. And we will also talk about shows today he has been involved in. So during this week, the audience of all around could see the six edition of Roma Heroes Festival, we could see many plays, we get shows, all of which Roma self representations and we could read articles related to the topic of self-representation in Roma theater. And as today, we have this conversation with four remarkable Roma artists and theater makers from different countries. I would like to start with saying just a line about the Roma community that is actually the largest ethnic minority in the European Union, Europe often marginalized and face discriminations just like today and in previous centuries. So my first question to you, what does Roma theater actually mean to you? And why do you think that Roma self representation matters if you think that and should be distinguished from theater in general? Whoever feels like to start? Maybe, maybe as Marci is still translating. Okay, I can start. Great, thanks. Hi, hello, everyone. Nice to see you and to meet you. So what does Roma theater matters? And if it can be seen as a specific category, if I will understood the second part of the question. I think like every minority theater matters. In the context that we live in societies where we learn Eurocentrism and where we learn that our art is less us because the standards of what is real art were set by the hoarders of power. So like the fact that we as a community we were marginalized, this had effects on our culture and arts too. And this is why it's important for us to occupy spaces and be visible and yes represent our community. Regarding the second question, I don't know why I feel I don't I don't feel good when I hear every time when I hear if if Roma theater should be seen differently or it should be put it in a different category. Like I have this feeling that the people try to put us in the boxes that why should be different. You know, it's theater is theater about Roma people and we feel and we play and do move the same. And this makes me feel this made me remember of my racist theater teacher that she always used to say like, Roma can be actors because the way in which they move speak is different than us and is different by the aesthetic representation on the stage. And this was profoundly racist, you know, and because like, we really breathe the same talk the same. And I feel that people trying to put us in different boxes like Roma theater is social theater or like RTV is a more whatever I think is their attempt to to live us in marginality when actually our theater is is valuable is high quality many times and is the way in which theater should be seen is progressive is contemporary. Yeah, it's what it should be called theater is how theater should be like responsible, how we try to do it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, everybody. So being visible Roma communities on the stage during a performance can empower the community members and in good case it can also raise the awareness of the majority regarding Roma people. And I also agree with me. Hi, that's theater is theater. So either my throat becomes sorrow and I got sweat and cry or not. And it's such a product should also have an impact without ethnic content. But may as a Roma person what should I do a performance about the sexual life of Eskimo people? Of course, I have nothing to do with that. Or at least to the part of people. So I can do a performance about my own challenges and well used stories. If it's Roma, it's Roma. If it's Roma, it's Roma, it's LGBT QZH, then it's that. I don't have too much problem with being put in boxes or getting some kind of like labels on us. I also know that my professional community names me as a gypsy director. But I'm aware that what are the joys and challenges of working with my colleagues? I concentrate on that, not so much of this external putting boxes issues. Thank you, Rodrigo. Thank you so much. Yeah, well, I have a longer story about how I came to do theater. I have to thank a lot to the meeting I had with the independent theater and Jubilee pan. I'm very thankful and grateful to them all. Because in the beginning, I started working with pre adolescent from from the communities, the Roma communities here in Rome. There are a lot of slums and camps where still Roma people are closed in. And I started doing very light activities like circus skills and music for children. So I did not have any intention of doing theater in the professional meaning. Just wanted to give them a chance to have a good time, you know, living in so bad conditions. It was very nice for them to have these moments a couple of times a week to have fun and learn things. Also me teaching music to the Roma community was quite something for me. And it was just after the invitation in the festival in Budapest by independent and the meeting with the Mihaela and all them that participated that I started taking a serious the the possibility to do theater. And I was very lucky to have older young young adults that joined me into the into this project. And they are and they became very good actor in very, very short time. And this is doing something is making a change in the mind of these people of these young people and their families. And also in the surrounding in the professional area of theater in Rome, we are the first Roma theater company in in Rome, maybe in Italy. And it's it's going it starts a long way. Thank you. So it seems you have slightly different opinions about the boxes or labels about Roma theater, but you also agree on a lot of things. But still Roma theater, Roma heroes festival is using this label. And it's actually the sixth edition, which we celebrated last year at the end of last year. So it's a lot of time that past since the first such festival was organized. Actually, it's the first International Roma Festival in the European Union, there was one in Kosovo before but in the European Union, it's the first one. And since then there was one such festival also in Bucharest and also in Rome. So I'd like to ask you to reflect on what's your opinion, what has changed in these six years, if any, and also what needs still an improvement. So what do you think what are the next steps for also for the festival and also maybe you as an artist, what's the difference between the roles of theater for you or the for the festival? Maybe if it's anything, any difference from the start, compared to the start. So in seven years, we made six festivals. So now we should also stop for a second and get some new fresh air to think a bit about what we are doing, why we are doing that. And how? So there was also with the same name festivals in Koshice, in Slovakia, and in Prague, and also other theater, Roma theater festival in Vienna. So this is what if we have some happiness in it, that it also became like in other European countries, but also other European Roma artists and organization thinks that it's important. So we should also evaluate it because already we have results like there is like bigger audience to who can like make full theater rooms. So it's also a question for me that audience members who come today also go to the performances of major ATC actors. So I'm also interested if we really like generate new audiences. I have a lot of questions like that. So we should now do a small stop and that's why we planned the next festival only in 2025. Besides that, I would like to add also that there is also a big professional development, which you can see in the six additions that at the beginning, it was only monodramas and storytelling. So now there are also like bigger performances, more professional performances, more spectacular performances. And also, as Rodrigo mentioned that the audience got like more diverse. So there are already like a lot of Roma audience members who go to performance and not only as a member of a group, but as active citizens who decide to go to theater, who want to buy a ticket, who want to see their stories on the on the stage. And we think it's a very important process of empowerment as well. So when you say you need to wait a little bit before the next festival, you also mean that you have certain answers for how much this festival can have an effect on the majority theater, or that you need to think about that during that time. And just to find ways how it could be reached, or where you just need to find out if it's happening already. I just maybe I didn't get it precisely. So now it's the time of collecting questions and later on getting answers, but it's not figured out exactly. So when you do any kind of productive things that sometimes it's nice to stop and evaluate and reflect before making new plans and develop it in the future and not to do just by routine. So I think it's a very important thing to think about new plans and and develop it in the future and not to do just by routine. Okay, so, Mihaila Sebastiano, as there were some festivals in Bucharest and room two, do you think that those will be organized again? And, and also the question is the same to you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. We we are trying to to to reorganize. Maybe this year, it will be a bit smaller version than last year. But we are trying to and we are asking to and that is what is important. And is that? Sorry. Yeah. What is important is that the city is asking us to do it. Well, not in a mainstream level, but we have come in touch with with what is the local theater, theater clique in here in Rome. And we've been invited also to small city festivals and coming out a little bit of this thing of the at no theater, but more as a theater. And this is this is very important for me. And yeah, we will try for sure to to reorganize version this year and for sure next year, it will be great to hear. In Bucharest, unfortunately, I don't have a positive answer like Sebastiano and like for this year, at least, I think we'll not organize it because last year, it was our first edition. And we were still learning, we didn't have the experience that independent theater from Hungary has in organizing. So I think we we made some some mistakes in the way in the period period when we fixed the festival. And I feel like when I think back now about your festivals, like I feel that it like in Budapest or in Rome, you have different contexts in the way that in I like, I like it very much that in Budapest Roma Heroes Festival was was growing from the first edition, as you said, because I remember I was there at the first edition. And like now at the sixth edition, like I felt that everything has changed, the space, the audience, I saw Roma community, I saw an international English community or like the Aspera community coming to your festival. I felt that all these six years, you know, had the power to move audiences, like they heard about the festival, they were curious, they were there everywhere, like the mainstream press in Hungary was interested about the festival, you know, it wasn't something new, like people knew about the festival. And I felt that you have been working a lot in all these years in order to bring the festival at this level. And in Rome, I like it because it was it was a community space, it was a squat where you organize the festival. And this was amazing, because they were in the squad, there were people all over the world, refugees, minorities, people exactly the audience that we try to reach, you know, our target. And I felt like it has so much meaning to perform their minimal in Bucharest, when we organize it, I felt that it was our own bubble, the bubble that usually is coming to our Juvenile Pen shows. And many, like some like, I saw that they came somehow to the to our shows more than to the other people shows from abroad, because I don't know, they don't have this curiosity or whatever, I was disappointed. I mean, this is the truth. I would like to say that, you know, the audience from Romania is more prepared or like more interested. But no, no, I understand. Maybe, maybe in years. Also, this creative Europe project, which the festival belongs to, also gave opportunity to create shows. And we could actually see those during the festival. And also online on hold on this week, earlier. And let's just talk a little bit about those shows, particularly. Actually, there were two shows viral on TikTok by you, Mihaela and and Romnia by you, Sebastian over in both of the cases, we find certain feminist criticism towards the Roma communities. We find, which is which doesn't happen for the first time for Mihaela. In this particular case, it's this show is about the lack of sexual education in Romania and particularly in the Roma communities. Whereas in Romania, we find young woman who has a conversation with her mother and she does not really get support for her desire to be not only alive, but something else as well. And I'm really interested in your opinion, if about such criticism in in theater, if this can lead or not lead to the negative status of Roma community, do you think it's a danger or not? If not, why? And maybe another question related to that, would you think at this point, your audience is and if you can tell us anything about the reception, please do shows locally, mostly whoever would like to maybe Mihaela, you are very, I think you don't really get this question for the first time, probably. Like, I don't I don't think it's self criticism. I think, you know, Roma communities parts of society that, you know, is misogynistic, maybe we're lack of sexual education. So I don't see like I, I've made like criticism to the Roma community and I tried to give them a lesson or something like that. I think I just talk about some issues with whom specifically Roma girls are confronting these issues. And I try to make it relevant. That's not only for Roma community, but also for Romanian society. And not only for Roma girls or teenagers, but also for their parents. And you can't avoid, you know, to sometimes to be interpreted as you make a self criticism of your own community or something, you know, is like it's an intersectional perspective. And an intersectional perspective is not it's the anti racist perspective, but it's also like the, you know, the female perspective, the women perspective, the LGBT perspective, perspective and so on. And then you have to make, you know, to mirror all this in an honest way to mirror all these realities of our community. And regarding the reception. Yeah, I think like, I feel like the reception was good. It was an intense show for many teenagers and many parents and I always know this. And I really like this, that sometimes the parents come to the show with their youngsters with their kids that they are, I don't know, 15, 16, 17. And many times, it's like an informed show not only for teenagers, but also for parents. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, Romnia. In the beginning, what I wanted, it was to make a theater performance that would speak to the female component of the of the Roma community here, that I experienced here in Rome. In their role of, you know, they, they have a lot of pressure on top of them, not only giving birth to their kids, but also taking care of the families and they often have to carry the load of troubles caused by man. But it's changed slightly on the way while we researched for that also due to the to the to the actress that I met and worked with. Because we found a different, different view on life. You see, there is a three, three, two ages of women that speaks to each other, the older one that talks about memories and, and expectation that never were met. And the young, young woman that is not wanting to become a wife and just do the life of a servant of the house. And also related to the old, today's discussions about gender and all this. So it was quite interesting because we came to touch and also kind of create a bridge between all generation and new generations. And also to have this story of this non Roma woman that decide to live together, that marry Roma man and decide to live in the community, which is also a very interesting story, because we can watch life from different perspectives. Actually, you mentioned another exciting parallel between your show and two shows by independent theater hungry from this year's program. Because in both of these three shows, actually, we see marriages between the non Roma and the Roma and also the multiple generation comes up with the actual feeling or the raising the question if it's possible to integrate into the larger society. Because in your piece, we have maybe a more optimistic tone of this that the non Roma woman finds her place in the Roma community and in the urban life. Whereas maybe the husband is less successful than his wife, but they still kind of survive. And it's more or less the same for builders of a country by independence, yet they're hungry, but the focus there is maybe much more on the impossibility of this full integration. And actually, this piece is the part is the part of a trilogy by independence, yet hungry both all the all three of them starts from the question of generations, rotting birds, which was also presented in this year's program, raising the actual question about the possibility to from coming from very low, if you can integrate into art life, and how this can lead to a conflict with your own community, maybe or with your own family. And it's a big question for each of these heroes, if they can succeed or not. And then then there's the third part of the trilogy, which is an older one, frocktails. So my question is, here, a less artistic one actually, more like a question about contemporary Italy and Hungary, how do you see that in real life? Like, what's your opinion about the possibility for integration? And, and, and, and marriages between the Roma and the non Roma in the provinces and in the capital, how do you see that it's happening? So the chances are for integration. Maybe, Sebastiano, would you like to start? Yeah, oh, yes. Well, if the question is about if integration in, in marriage, I think love is love and that you cannot really change integration. Sorry, maybe I didn't, I didn't get the question or what? Integration of the couple into the larger society, integration of an individual, maybe Roma person into the right, bigger society. So definitely not. Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, you were right. Well, what can I say about that? I am quite negative on that, on that concern, because I find it's very strange, because some, some people, I mean, some part of the society take it, especially in the suburb, you would find people that, that would react well on and welcome this kind of situation. But also, there is a kind of war between poor people that has is triggered by the kind of society we live in that makes also that one family mixed said or Roma family that tried to get out of the slum and get into a popular house or something like that, get in trouble with neighbors. You see, in, in that concern, generally, I'm quite not so positive. I find that what as as long as our society, the mainstream society doesn't change in a positive way, there will be no peace. It's not, I mean, it's what I find generally, this capitalistic and mainstream Western culture imposing all over the place is, is doing this, that and it won't change as long as it's so injustice, so much on heaven, distribution of wealth and all this. I'm sorry, I'm so negative, but this is what I think it's that way. Yeah, thank you. So if you speak about integration, then I think in Hungary, never really functioned. So I think that if you speak about integration, then I think in Hungary, never really functioned. We put a lot of emphasis on the social integration. But there was no focus on economic integration or inclusion. So there is nothing to speak about because without economic inclusion, social inclusion doesn't really function. So one very local level, if there is like a mixed marriage or something like that, and there can be some change, but it's only the surface and I wouldn't call it integration, but more like a simulation. So either the non-Roma person or community be assimilated to a Roma community or a Roma person assimilated to the, to the majority, but like the mutual acceptance of values and commonalities is not really what I see. Despite that, I can see that the three pieces of fathers and sons, trilogy is not only about unsuccessful integration stories. I see them as development stories, which we might have our opinions and critics, but it's still development. And yes, everybody has its price. Yeah, there is price, the food in the shop and when you want to give it to yourself, the family, and you start to set a good goal, yes, you have to pay the price. It's important that you leave your own identity company, you have to be a little bit more responsible. So in many times when people want to reach more and give more to their families and realize their, their aims, then they have to pay a price for that. And many times they have to put in back their own identity. So how much is the price is depending on their given individual? We all pay and we will pay also in the future for that. That's what I'm speaking about in these three performances. Thank you, Rodrigo. Also, these performances are actually theater shows that are not following evidently traditional path, but they are all contemporary pieces. Mihaela, you have a multimedia show with very active women on the stage, a very contemporary piece about Castiano. The show is very interestingly mixing contemporary theater in Comedia del Arte. And Rodrigo, you are experimenting, not even for the first time, with the genre invention of pancopara. So what is your relation to traditions, both European tradition, theater traditions and also Roma theater traditions? And how do you think actually these, the contemporary theater and these traditions can be mixed and what do you experiment with? How do you experiment with them? And also, I'm really interested in how your audiences accept shows. Sebastiano seemed like, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, well, I come from so many different experience with theater. A traditional theater and contemporary theater. How do we work with that? Yeah, well, I you see, I started with street theater. Yeah, and I started a kind of circus clowning and very free, you know, very free, open, open to any suggestion, something that would in the street you have to be very straight and be very good at capture the attention. And you would do that with any, with any means. But also the experience I had later on with theater, so so different. So I, I, I do not, I do not take as style, one style, I don't, I do not stick to one style. I like to, to, to use anything. What is important is what the content, what is important is how, how you can reach the best way you can tell your story, and how you can reach, how you can do that the story goes into the heart of people. Because this is the most important. So yeah, then theater as art is very interesting. And we have the story is so long. There's been so much experimentation. I think we, as the, and the coming generation, we should just be free to pick from whatever and mix and experiment as much as we can. What about you, Mihaila? So the question is, how do we mix contemporary theater with Roma tradition in the context of European theater tradition, if I will understood? So those traditions, and if, if both matter to you, when doing theater, which one do you concentrate on more? Do you try to connect to any of them of these two traditions? Yeah, so first of all, I don't know exactly what is Roma tradition, you know, because how can we define Roma tradition? Maybe there, you know, is a set of practices. But I don't know, yes, music, he's part of our tradition, dance, or cloric dance is part of our tradition. And, but I think the, the way in which we use it, yeah, it's, it's contemporary. We definitely like, we like very much to use music in our shows. And viral on Tik Tok, it's talking about like, we younger, trying to become popular on Tik Tok, so they use a lot of music and choreos, choreography. And I think, yes, in connection with the European theater tradition, I think like, theater is very different all over the euro. I think I don't know, maybe Germany is more brechtian is post dramatic theater in Romania, or Hungary, it's here for world theater. So I think it's very general question. And I don't know how, how to focus on it. But yes, I think we also practice post dramatic theater many times. And I think if we also speak about the Roma theater tradition here in in Romania, it's a long tradition because like Roma people since slavery, they used to be involved in theater. And they put the basis of the first forms of theater in the Romanian countries before we called the space Romania. And they used a lot of music because they were also musicians like the enslaved people were musicians. And they said also a lot of jokes and used circus. And I feel yes, somehow we bring this tradition forward. I mean, there is a perspective here. But in general, I think as Sebastian also said, like I think because we are pioneers, like independent theater Hungary and Budapest day in Rome, we in Romania, we are pioneers of Roma contemporary theater, we experiment a lot. So I think I don't know, maybe five years ago, after 15 years of Roma contemporary theater, someone will, I don't know, will write a book and will have more reflection on what we managed to build differently in our countries. And, you know, what we put it together. But I really think like, we're not having the opportunities to have to have a building to call it Roma theater, you know, so as performing in different spaces in different alternative spaces, theaters, these also influenced our art practice in the way in which we had to adapt to the spaces. This is why many times maybe our theater is experimental or um, yeah, I wanted to say something else, but I forgot my idea if I remember I'll come back. Yeah, that's all. Yeah, sorry, can I just add a little thing? Yeah, no, just because I maybe I left some part of the answer out. And more than the tradition, I think that what has moved a lot here, the company we've worked with, it's more a mood, mood of the of the Roma community in the positive and bad and negative way. This is what is is a very strong. It gives gives ideas and it gives gives wanting to tell through the theater and not so much about the tradition or the style of of of whatever, but more the mood of the community. This is what what is giving us it gives us contents to talk about. So in all the three pieces I did in this trilogy have some parts from the story of my family. But I wouldn't say that these stories are traditional or they are connected to any kind of traditions. I studied Universal theater history. in the theater school. So that was what I could have referred to. And I also worked in opera productions, which I used to think that they were very boring. And after 20 years, I started to think about how it could be a bit more interesting than when I was only an actor in a production. But we were only having fun with each other and other colleagues when these ideas came up. But actually, you also say that you had a relation with the genre of opera, which is actually a tradition, which relation was that it's boring, and you have to reinvent it and innovate it. And I think each of you actually, as contemporary artists, just reflect on traditions and innovate them. And just getting back to Mihaila a little bit. Yeah, maybe these questions sounded a bit general. But what I meant was that for you, for example, I think in your contemporary theater, one can really see how you are based in two countries and how German theater, for example, and how performing work he and how these different languages just makes in your personal tone. So I was just interested in how you interpret your own, but what you are really interested in your artistic work in which directions and traditions, but you are right that it will be the task of theater scholars to write this down later on. Okay, so getting back closer to the end of this conversation, actually, there was a manifesto in 2022, which I would like you to reflect on a little bit. When the representatives of the European Romance Theater Network came to Budapest, and they shared their vision about the future, and they had the declaration. And this declaration is about visibility, the demand of visibility, support and equal opportunities for the Roma artists. So at the end of this conversation, I would like to reflect you on this manifesto or declaration. And my question is, what do you think we should do to make this actually happen? Because these are nice words. But what should we actually do? Sorry, what is the question? Like, I didn't, I didn't get it. I don't know if they get it because I saw that there is still a bit of silence. Yeah, you want to answer the question is that there is this manifesto manifesto. Yeah, the manifesto that we started regarding the European Roma theater. Yeah, okay, now I got it. And what do you want to achieve in the future? Yeah, I mean the means and the tools and what should we actually do to make this actually happen? Yeah, I think the fact that we still resist in theater, and we still produce as independent theater companies fighting with budgets, with funding, writing application, trying to make visible our art producing and being creative at the same time, you know, it's, it's already the fact that we, we are here, we resist and we are, we are committed to do this work in the future too. And maybe, you know, the future Roma generations of theater makers, they don't have to fight so much as we have done all these years. And regarding the tradition that you asked us, maybe like we'll also leave them a tradition of Roma theater that they will continue. Because as we are pioneers in Roma contemporary theater, and you know, we'll have already our, our style, our themes, contents. And yeah, we really hope that we will leave this platform. So the next generation of theater makers, they will not feel that they have to take it from the beginning. If we manage to do this, I think we already have done a lot. It's, it's enough for me. Ihala, you make me wanting to become old. I see us, like all people meeting on zoom and telling each other, do you remember when you were younger? And I did that with the staff and we are still young. We are still young. We've done a lot of work, you know, like our work. Yeah, yeah. I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. Of course, you know, I am a clown. Yeah, well, we did this beautiful manifesto last year. Was it last year or now it's two years ago? Did we did they react? I'm asking Martin and Rodrigo did they react? Did we have any response from there was even the head of the culture office, European culture office that they don't remember? Did we ever have any response? Yeah, we got like a new creative euro project. That's what we got since then. We did online event of this project, diverse drama theaters in Seattle and everyday life. But we didn't do like a really lobbying activity. So and I don't know if it's really like the task which also this very small and grassroots theater group should do like going to Brussels and taking coffees and you know, like a lobbying ministers and things like this. So no, actually, it's a it's a base, but maybe we could involve some more lobbying Roma organizations to to stand next to this initiative and to work on that. Yeah, I to respond, I totally agree with the Mihaela produce, produce, create, create every year, try to go on with our own means, whatever, it's the only way we can get some some recon recognition recognition. And yeah, well, on that side, I don't know. There is this new movement is called Roma for democracy. We have been contacted by them. And somebody told us, politic and culture has to walk together. So maybe we can send them to Brussels, do some lobbying, lobbying, sorry. Already made sense to talk. There are some new ideas. Okay, so I totally agree with Mihaela and Sebastiano that we should really focus on our work. And if we do this work and create new performances and empower the community members who can believe that they can really shape their futures and make decisions and So this is already enough. I also agree. And also that there will be other generations coming and new theater companies and they will have already something to find. And I think if, if, if, if, if, if the community really, really believes and sees that it can come back to the two, let's say even after an introduction, then, then that community will be up and if they don't need any EU, no home-based politicians, but the community will be able to work. And I think if you show the opportunities of your community that they can really develop, be active and so on, then your own community will be your supporters. And you wouldn't really need external supports from European Union or something like upper and external. I believe in the community of Hungary and I see that the I believe in the Hungarian Roma communities and I really see how a lot of people are trying to connect and have put energies and I really admire this people community and process. Thank you. Thank you so much for all of you for sharing all your ideas and thoughts and even some practical ideas came up at the end by Sebastianu. So I would like to thank you for this conversation today and if there is nothing in you that you really want to tell them, I would say goodbye to both of you and to the audience around.