 Welcome and thank you for joining us today. Hi there. Yeah, it's another episode of the nonprofit show. It's a Monday and it's a brand new month and we are excited to have Marianne Durche with us. Marianne is the Chief Excitement Officer with courageous communications. And before we dive into today's conversation, we of course want to make sure that you know who we are. Julia Patrick joins us as the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransome, your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And we would not be having these conversations and continuing to stand next to you to navigate these uncertainties as we finish up the end of the year if it weren't for these presenting sponsors. So thank you so very much to our presenting sponsors. Many of these companies truly have been with us and with you through the last two years. And if you have not checked them out, I want you to do that not now, but just a little bit later because they are phenomenal companies to help and support you move your mission forward. And again, we are thrilled to have today as a thought leader episode. Again, Marianne Durche joins us. And Marianne, you are the Chief Excitement Officer with courageous communication. Welcome to you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You know, we're really excited about having your voice as one of our nonprofit thought leaders because if ever there was a time for excitement and having courageous conversations, now is that time. Yeah. And so I can't wait to hear what you have to say. First and foremost, you have a book which is super cool. I know how hard that is. Check it out. You can purchase this on Amazon, right? Yep. Awesome. Awesome, awesome. Courageous communications, how co-dependence is making your nonprofit brand boring and what to do about it. Love it. Love it. I got a huge turner. Yeah. Yeah. This is great. You know, Marianne, first and foremost, I'm really interested about this concept of being brave, having courageous conversations, but who is this that we're talking to? So I feel like that's such an important question because we have been taught like to kind of appeal to everyone, you know? And what we wanna do is understand that we're not for everybody, right? And that that's okay. You can have and what my book is about is standing strong in your mission and your message to attract like-minded people because, and this is the thing I would love for people to remember is you don't have to make people care. That is not your job is to make people care. And we spend a lot of time making people or wanting people, wishing and hoping people would care about our organization, but really all we're doing is being strong in our mission and message, really standing in and embodying our value to attract like-minded people, right? So instead of trying to fix or change minds, which is if I could, ooh, wouldn't that be amazing? Right? Instead you're trying to align, create alignment. What's your, you know what? I call it your personal philanthropic heart. What's in your heart? That's born of you within you. That's a childhood from a childhood, you know, from that. And so you really can't change what's in somebody's philanthropic heart, why they're gonna care or not. That's an emotional connection. You know, okay, I gotta say, Jared, I don't think anyone's ever said that. No, I've heard that often when it comes to business owners as, you know, really in that entrepreneur space. And I'm one of those, but I think to take that, you know, into the nonprofit space, you're so right, is that we're not going to attract everyone, not everyone is going to care truly about the mission. And when we talk about, there's 1.8 million nonprofits in the US, there's a lot of missions out there that many of us are just naturally attracted to. Yes. Yeah. I think that's great. I think it's, you know, what I see people doing is what I call fantasy relationships and the fantasy relationships are like, if I just email them one more time, you know, if I just mail them one more time, and they're not going to. And that, but that's okay. Like when we release what no longer serves us, we make space for what comes in and what keeps people going back and back and back is they're afraid that it's the scarcity mindset that's very pervasive in nonprofits, which is kind of like the underlying principle of everything is abundance. When I believe that there's enough out there, it's easy for me to release the people that aren't the right fit because I'm making way for the people that are. And, you know, we've been taught, like there's only so many people who will give and only so much money. And so we're afraid to let anything go. And that's what, that's what me makes marketing and fundraising hard is cause we're just not attracting our people. So how do we identify to truly make sure we're communicating to our people, to comedy, you know, tips or techniques that you can share with us to really hone in on who we are and how we can be so authentic in our, you know, I wanna say tone, but our narratives and the stories that we tell. Yeah. So for me, it's really two things. It's the stories that we tell, but then also like understanding who we wanna attract. And it's not so much like, oh, you know, attracting the like, oh, this, you have to attract like this specific type of person. It's like really understanding who do we want to come with us on this journey? And then looking from that and saying, okay, now what do we share? What values do we share? Right? What are the underlying values that we share? And then speaking to them from that space and how can I be a value to them? So they will be a value to me. And I think that for me is the key and that when I talk about influence and teach influence, that's the basic principles. When I'm a value to you, you'll be a value to me. And we think, well, how can I be a value to someone else? And that's kind of the work I do is to help people really understand their value and so that how they can be a value to others so that they'll be a value to them. Yeah. I hear often about organizations doing a mission creep or chasing the dollar, right? So I feel like that's happening because we are going outside of our values and maybe we're seeing a very big philanthropist in our community and we're saying, oh, we also want a piece of that. Yeah. And so let me, it's like, so if you met a friend and your friend was changing their belief system and their value system to align better with you, you'd be like, why would I be friends with that person? You know, they'll do it, but they'll, you know what I'm saying? If you bring it, it's always good to bring marketing or fundraising, anything organizationally relationship. How would I feel like as an individual, right? So if I'm gonna change who I am to please you, is that really a relationship either one of us wants to enter into? And so when you look at it from that way, if I can say, this really isn't a good fit, okay, that's awesome because now I can go find the fit that is good. Right. And also just like, okay, I'll tell you a quick story. I was working with this group of Marines, like veterans and the guy was telling me how one of the, one of these big donors was like, they serve with Marines, okay? We spent the whole morning like understanding their value system, you know, like and he said, well, he asked me if we would consider you know, hosting other armed forces, right? And I said, I don't know what to say. And I was like, well, what do you think I would think that you would say? He's like, that we serve Marines. And I'm like, right, yeah, we just stood and you know, we just spent a whole morning talking about the very specific culture of Marines. And I said, so if you could speak the truth to him, what's, what truth would you speak? And he would, he said, I would tell him that this, we have a very specific culture and we just wouldn't honor other people in the same way. It was just, it wouldn't work. And I, and so he told a guy that and then the guy was like, okay, like it was just an idea. You know, like it was more of a question but this guy was thinking, oh, I gotta redo my whole organization. But like, just what if you could tell him the truth without fear, you know, of losing out, what would you tell him? And he was like, I would tell him that and then tell him that. Right. Just tell him that. And that is courageous because as you just said Marianne, it is removing the scarcity mindset and staying in that abundance mindset. And I'm wondering if that is how we can talk and communicate with our correct or authentic audience, right? The one that's truly in alignment with us. And if therefore that mitigates challenges, right? So we're getting the dollars faster. We're getting the partnerships faster. Is that a way for us to get a yes faster from our audience? Like, I'm not sure I get the question but ask me again. Well, how do we get to yes faster? Essentially, you know, I'm getting to yes faster because we are standing in our truth and in our, you know, aligning with our values. Yes. And because we're honestly, because in that story that I just told you, as soon as that guy released the outcome of what was going to happen, stood in the truth, whether it was yes or no, good things happened, right? And so the way to get to yes faster is to be willing to hear a no. Which is not a yes. Boom. There you go. I love that. We are afraid to hear no. So we hesitate, right? And so one of the biggest principles I teach in my course is like releasing the outcome. So I want to release the outcome of like, because when I have an agenda, when I have like something that I want to have happen, energetically people can sense the desperation, they sense the pressure, even if my mouth is saying, you know, whatever you want to do is okay, then my body saying, oh God, please say yes. I need this so bad. They feel that and they pull back and they close down. And so, you know, if I'm open to, hey, if this works, and from an honest, I'm from like cultivating that inside you, like from an honest place, then, you know, when we release the outcome, we're more likely to have people do what we want them to do. But the way, you know, when we push or try to convince, which is what sort of we've been taught to do, you got to pitch it, you got to sell it, you got to say the right thing. Then though, you know, but it's actually the opposite. It's about like really connecting with people in an authentic way. And if it's a fit, it's a fit. If it's not, that's okay too. And, you know, and Jared, I'm sure, like, you know, I mean, as business owners and all that, you understand that, like you want to, you know, you cultivate the sense of, you know, it's not, it's going to be okay. It's already okay. Everything's working for me. This is all going my way. And in that space of like, this is whatever happens, this is, you know, the blessing release of it, that's what my friend Laura calls it, the blessing release, right? Yes. You know, and then whatever they, but they're more likely to decide what you want them to, if you allow for them to make up their own decision, right? And you can leading them to a place of decision-making, whether it's for you or not. And that's what I'm saying about a no, because at least they made a decision. Right. Right, you have that answer. And I'm curious because with it being the end of the year, one of the things we were talking about during our Chitty Chat chat, so if you join us. Yeah. So the end of the year is here. And so having these courageous communication now, I'm imagining is important, not only for the remainder of the year, but setting up for the new year. So what are some things that you might tell your clients in the nonprofit sector on how can we get to that yes faster through the end of the year? So I'll tell you that one of the biggest things is the death to any conversation, which is let me think about it and get back to you. The 10 words you, when you hear them and people go, oh, we'll see, they're gonna think about it. And I didn't have to hear no. And like, we don't wanna hear, I mean, and I get why we don't wanna hear no. It's like, because that's a rejection, rejection stirs up feelings of guilt and shame. We don't wanna feel guilt and shame. So we kind of like let that answer ride. And if we can, I'm sorry about my dog back here. Mon's bit. So he wanted to be on this show too. Worst. So here's the thing. If you can, what I teach is when people say, let me think about it and get back to you, you say, how about, you know what? This is gonna happen a lot. I feel like, why don't we talk after the first of the year? Yeah. Right? Great. Let's pick a time now to continue the conversation. If you're serious, let's put a time on the calendar. And if not, that's okay too. But, you know, like, and they say, oh, okay, and then you put a time on the calendar in that moment, when you decide to raise your standard and say, let me think about it and get back to you is no longer okay with me. Right? It's either a no, which is fine, right? Or it's a yes, let's keep talking, then we put it on the calendar. Yeah. It's a little dance, right? And the reason we're doing the dance, and we just say this really quick, the reason that we do the dance, because they don't want to say no, because it's embarrassing to say no. It makes them feel bad. You don't want to hear a no. So we, he came to say, hey, I'm over here. Some people will say that a no is simply a not right now. So what do you say to those when they do say no? Do you put them on the first year, you know, first year? Yeah, right. They'll say, you know, this is just, you know, handling objections and so if they say not right now, you say, great, when is a good time? And then whenever time that is, you set the follow up time then they say, how about spring? Great, I know it's far away, but let's just put something on the calendar now. That way we don't have to worry about it. We know we'll be back in touch. But when people tell me, because people tell me, let me think about it. Great, I want you to think about it, because I want people who are 100% committed. So I want you to think about it and let's set up a time now to check in and see how that's going. That way it's on the calendar. You relax, they relax. And then you can just, you have that follow up piece. And also, but what I say is, again, it's that ability to tell the truth. Listen, if this isn't for you, I totally understand. And if it's truly not the right time, let's figure out when the right time is and schedule a time to talk, right? Because like I said, I'm releasing the outcome. I let them decide. And when I put the power in them, in their hands, they're more likely to actually go my way. Which seems so counterintuitive, yet it's so powerful. Releasing the outcome and just kind of like having fun with it a little bit, it changes everything. You know, I'm a big believer in the blessing release concept. Terry, the amazing Terry Axelrod, who is the CEO of Benevon, talks about that a lot. And I'm wondering, is it ever something that you just literally say, if this is not okay, just let me know, or if this is not for you, and I'll, you know, fall off your radar? Yeah, like you can say something like, I have a template that I walk people through and it's based in deep listening. Let me just back up a second. Because what I wanna say is like, the conversations are really, I feel like people get too hyped up and I gotta say the perfect thing. I gotta have the perfect pitch, blah, blah, blah. Communication is 90% unspoken. And what you say has even less to do. The 10% that is spoken is really about listening to them, right? If you've done your deep listening, if you understand where they're really coming from, you, and when I teach this deep listening, what I'm looking for is an opening, right? I'm looking for an opening. And opening means I'm listening and I'm thinking, man, oh my gosh, that would be perfect. Oh, I can see how my idea would meet your needs. Then when I feel that opening, then I can have a conversation about that. Okay, yeah, so what I heard you say is this, and I would love to explore that more with you if that's okay and you asking permission all the way, right? So if I'm asking that permission and I'm doing my deep listening and I'm really just saying ideas that are in true alignment with who they are, by the time I get down to the end, right? I'm going to know if this is working or not. You know what I'm saying? And if it's not, that's okay. Can I tell you a quick story about this? Okay, so one of my clients' names, Jonathan, he's awesome. He's New Jersey and he's big personality and he is a talker. He's like me, we're talkers. And Jonathan has an organization called For the Love of India and he employs people in India, like 50 people and he was looking to get money to sponsor and event a conference for them. And so he went to somebody that's given him in the past and he used this method that I teach which is like this deep listening. He didn't have a pitch, he didn't have anything. And the guy, he said, he's met with this guy for years off and on. The guy for this time, like, hey, how's it going? The guy's like, oh, it's good, it's cool. You know, he said, but this pandemic has been crazy. He said, and I am so grateful for my employees. I invest so much in their training and their personal and professional development. He's like, and it really paid off for me. Jonathan's like, he said all the times I met with this guy, I never, he never mentioned this before. And so Jonathan said, I am so glad you said that because one of the things that I'm doing is, you know, I want to invest in my employees. Would you consider sponsoring this conference? And so because he didn't pitch, because he didn't push, he just was like, hey, tell me what's going on, you know? And when the guy was just sharing what was happening and he was started talking about how much he loved his employees and how their investment and their growth was so important, Jonathan's like, oh, there's my opening. So I don't need to pitch. You've already told me what you value. You've already told me what you want. All I have to do is say, okay, here it is. And he saw that opportunity and related it to that individual and that's such a perfect. He found his opening, right? Because all he did was listen and ask questions. And instead of having to pitch or saying the right thing or coming with his packet, and then all those things are fine, right, like we can't have those. But like what he did was he opened up with some very deep listening. And then so what I'm hearing is you really value that and I'm so glad you value that because I value that too. And I would love for you to consider this. Is it okay if I share a little bit more about this? Yeah, sure. And then it was like, he already kind of walked himself through that door. You know what I'm saying? So yeah. I love that you are talking in this spirit because I think at the heart of it when we do have these types of relationships and Jared always reminds us about the ROR, return on relationship. You know, this is a more sustainable piece. It's not just that twist your arm and get a check and then move on. Part of this is you talk about in your book and I saw this on your website. What does it mean to up level your influence? I'm very intrigued with that. Yeah. So this is such a, this is really, I'll answer the question, which is I define influence as getting people you have no authority over to do what you want them to do. So, right? So that means in a nonprofit, you have lay of your board, you have donors, so many people that you don't have authority over and you want them to do what you want them to do. And so when we growing our influence then, which means if I'm a value to you you'll be a value to me, right? All I have to worry about is how, how can I be a value to you? And when I know, when you, when you, when I'm a value to you, I know you'll be a value to me. And it switches the dynamic, but it's also one that's rooted really deeply in, and I wanna say like faith, like faith and trust that if I'm, you know, if I'm putting good stuff out there it's gonna come back to me. And so how can I, instead of like, why won't my board do this? It's like, how can I, how can I support my board? Right? Also, the biggest thing is if I want people to do something differently I have to be, I have to do something differently. And I can't say, okay, I want all y'all to change and I'm just gonna be here, you know, right? I need to raise my standards for what I will and will not accept in my life because, you know, at some point it became okay to accept and think about it and get back to you. Became okay for my board to fly the engagement flag at half mass. And then that's okay though because when I say, well, wow, that's about me I can do me but when I raise my standards for what I want and develop healthy boundaries to support those standards that's really the key to influence. That's the big secret. And then once you have that it's like a super highway because if you have influence, marketing is easier fundraising is easier, board relationships because I know how to easily enroll people in my vision. I know how to move people in my direction without pushing. Like you said, you know, twist their arm and get a check. That's good in the short term, right? But it's not sustainable. So this maybe it's a little slower to develop but it's more sustainable. Does that make sense? It does and I think the chairman of your board I don't know what really is but I think he's like alerting us to the fact that- I am so sorry, it's gonna be so quiet. When this is done, no one will bark or open a door for four hours, I swear. It's not good, I don't know, it's all good. This is real life kids, you know? I think this is our reality. So I think it's no, I think it's great. You know, it's really been a great way to start our Monday to hear your values and to think about this in a new way. And Marianne has a podcast which is really a great way for those of us in the nonprofit sector. I think a lot of times we need to hear these outside messages that help us get out of our way. Yeah. So I was just gonna share really quickly like what I saw in, because I've been doing this I've been working in nonprofits since like 1992 but like what I saw was a like a lot of people were solving or trying to solve communication and leadership issues with strategy. Right? Like if my board doesn't trust each other, let's get a plan. You know, like I can't get my board engaged. Let's, what, here's this toolkit. And those are good, but what I didn't see was and what, where I was really called is in the mindset and shifting who we are raising our standards as a leader, coming into more power over what, you know, what the world that we can create for ourselves and then having people respond from that place. And that's what I felt like was really making the, making the change is focusing more on how we think and feel because that determines the outcome more than anything more than any strategy or tool. When I think that abundance mindset is also really easy. I think as a sector, you know, we've been so focused on scarcity and if we can focus on the abundance and say no and not be afraid to say no with that abundance mindset of, okay, the next best opportunity is literally around the corner. And that is an easier place to work through your goals. You know, I mean, everyone feels better when they're, you know, successful. Yes, and we're faster. We're a collection of the stories that we tell ourselves. So what, what story do I want to tell myself? There's no money. I'm never going to find any money. Or is the story I want to tell myself that the universe is abundant. There's limitless money, limitless energy, limitless time. And it's all right around me. It's either here or well in its way. Which story would I rather go through my day with? And you were talking about the year end and that push of like that, you know, what story, what's a better story? Cause it's a story. You know what I mean? So I'd rather just tell the one that, you know, it feels so much better because when we, when we're rooted in opportunity then we see more opportunity, you know? Yep, I agree. Well, check out Marianne's podcast, The Influential Nonprofit. I think this is just could be a great tool to help you navigate all the things that come in and out of this crazy world we call the nonprofit sector. I mean, I just love it. And I also want to make sure that we remind our viewers that Marianne's book, Courageous Communication is out. You can find it on Amazon. And I think it might be a really good supplement to the message that she shares on her podcast because I think it is a new dawn for communicating to our stakeholders, our staff, our boards, you know, all of the people that we're around and certainly our donors. So check this out. I think it's a really good opportunity to learn more. Here's Marianne's information. Marianne at MarianneDurch.com. Reach out to her and watch, take a look at MarianneDurch.com. She's got a lot of great information on there. It even goes in further as to part of what her training trainings look like and the foundational points that she puts her clients. It's really cool. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jarrett Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. And I want to thank all of our sponsors. And guess what? We have a new sponsor coming on tomorrow. Very exciting. Wow. Yeah, we're excited about that. This has been a great way to start our week. Don't you think, Jarrett? Important, yes, especially with the end of the year, being here, so focusing on our influence, being okay with a no answer so we can get to that yes faster. And I think we all need a chief excitement officer. Thank you for bringing that to us. You bet. Yeah, Marianne, this is great. I love your energy. And I certainly love the spirit with which you are kind of reeling us back in. And at the same time, empowering us, I agree. I think we work too much in the scarcity mode. And maybe for me, if nothing else, I needed to hear that today. So I'd say thank you very much. You're welcome. I really do. I think this has been great. Hey, everybody, as we like to end every episode, we want to remind everyone to stay well so you can do well. Thanks, Marianne. We'll chat again.