 And thank you for joining us again to Adventures of Commercialization. Today, I am really excited to have Steven Tibbets, a chairman and CEO of Ziva Arrow on our show. A little background about me personally, I have a family who comes from the airline industry. My mom works, my mom and stepdad both work in airline maintenance. So many of my dinner conversations were around aviation. And I have had the pleasure of watching Steven present his company in front of investors and pitch multiple times. So I'm really excited to have him here on the show today to talk to us about his transformation of our aerospace. Welcome, Steven. Thanks Zoe, thanks for having me. So tell us, so Ziva is the company that you have founded. And I know it was founded in about 2017 for a competition at Boeing. Can you tell us a little bit about how that came about? Yeah, let me give you the extended story a little bit if you have time for it. We had, I had back in 2003 timeframe, I had, I did a consulting job and I made bank. So I decided, hey, I'm gonna take a couple months off and just get my pilot license. So I did that and ended up buying a little Cessna 172 and what my dream was, I actually bought a folding mountain bike and my dream was to throw my folding mountain bike in the back seat and then fly in too close to where I wanted to go and then just ride the last mile. So I'd be able to best of both worlds, jump over the traffic and just go where I wanted to go. Turns out that my dream didn't really work out because all the little airports that I knew about growing up were gone. I live in the Puget Sound area and between Portland and Seattle, there's over 300 airports that have vanished over the last 50 years. So I was kind of frustrated and at the time, general aviation was, it's kind of dying. It's dying away because it's not useful because all in our area, all the little airports are gone and it's in the avgast expensive. So that just got, being an engineer that got me thinking about, okay, what's going on here? What can we do to improve it? And so, hey, what about flying cars? So I thought about that for a while and there's a bunch of guys out in the world doing flying cars. The problem with flying cars is they still require runways. So you can't really fly exactly where you want to go with those either. So the conclusion was that we needed to do vertical takeoff and landing. And since I'm an electrical engineer, it had to be an electric vertical takeoff and landing or what's now called EVETAL. Anyway, so by 2005, I'd gotten around to making a SBA grant proposal to NASA and submitted that to NASA in 2005. And I got two thumbs up and one thumbs down. So I didn't get the grant, but I kind of mapped out this whole, this revolutionary period that we're in now back in 2005. And I shared that paper with a number of people, including some of the founders of some of the EVETAL, successful EVETAL companies. And I'm sorry, the audience may not know, EVETAL stands for Electric Vertical Takeoff and Landing. So that's, and then in 2017, we learned about the Boeing sponsored X-Prize called GoFly. And we'd put a team together to pursue that. So at that point, I knew the world had kind of caught up to my idea and all of a sudden it's a thing. So this vertical flight became a thing. And we put a team together to build a machine specifically for the Boeing GoFly competition. And what were some of the criterias of the GoFly competition? Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah, it was, you know, it's still an ongoing competition. They set the bar super high. The requirements are it had to be a compact machine. So the entire aircraft had to fit within an eight and a half foot sphere. It had to be relatively quiet. And the course it had to go through consisted of six miles around a track and then hover, do a touch and go, and then stay in the air for a total cumulative time of 20 minutes. So it's pretty, it was pretty tough challenge. None of the teams qualified during the main events, including Ziva, but we certainly gave it the old college try. Awesome. And so tell me a little bit about the structure of the device itself. I heard it's electric. Yes, it's 100% electric battery operated. Of course, it's zero carbon emissions. If you're lucky enough to live in a state like Washington then it has green power, so hydropower. And our particular vehicle is a blended wing body. And it looks like a flying saucer, if you haven't seen it yet. But the idea is that it takes off vertically. You stand up and it takes off vertically and it takes off vertically. You stand up and it takes off vertically. And then the whole aircraft transitions to forward flight and it's a lifting body that goes 160 miles an hour. So it's, that's what we're working on. Okay, and who flies it? How does it fly? Well, do I need a pilot's license to fly it? Today you do need a pilot's license to fly it. In the future, we're hoping that the FAA, excuse me, at some point will allow autonomy, in which case you won't need a pilot's license, you'll just get in it and tell it where you wanna go with AI and automated air traffic management. Okay, and how long in the future do you think that air traffic control would permit a device like this to fly? It's happening really fast. I mean, Ziva is a leader, but there's probably about nine other companies around the world that are flying full scale models and the leader, the one that's kind of leading the pack is Joby right now and they are claimed that they're close to getting certification. So they're making really good strides and I think that the longest pole in the tent is gonna be the autonomy piece. So they'll be able to fly with a pilot's license for quite right away. But in order to get the autonomy, you can imagine that that's a lot more complicated certification process, they don't even have the rules yet. Okay, so if our viewers would like to see what this looks like, ZivaAero.com, so that's Z-E-V-A-A-E-R-O.com and you can see what this whole device looks like, this flying saucer, as you mentioned. I really like that how it kind of hovers and you set up right in it. And then it's got almost like drone, I wanna say wings on it or propellers. Is that correct? Is it similar to a drone? Yeah, I mean, we call it motor pods, but it's more or less an octocopter. So it's got two blades on each corner, if you will. And it's controlled by a very similar flight computer as you would find in a really high-end drone. So the technology's kind of all merging at the same time in order to make it all happen. The flight control system, the lightweight composites, electric motors and the battery density is improving almost every week. So all of these considerations are converging to allow us to create these kind of vehicles. And how fast does this thing go? Well, it cruises at about 160 miles an hour. I think the top speed is probably shy of about 200. We haven't pushed it to that speed yet. So we are in the process of raising more money and getting geared up to go out to a much larger flight range where we can turn it loose and see what it'll do. That's so exciting. That's pretty fast. We're gonna be getting places not only skipping traffic but also going pretty fast to get there. I like the concept a lot. But you also, so one thing that you mentioned is currently you need a pilot's license. What's the vision for the future? Is anybody could be able to hop into one of these things and get to work or skip traffic? We have, I mean, there's two, I guess there's basically a fork in the road. We hope to be at some point autonomy, like I mentioned, certified and autonomous. The other approach which some of the co-peditors are doing is making it an ultralight. And it's very challenging because the ultralight rules are written to favor gas powered airplanes. But if we can get into the ultralight category, that means that anybody can fly it without a pilot's license. So, and would that be kind of set up? I know that there's drones out there that do videos and transport objects. Would that kind of be, would there somebody be controlling it like a video game while you're hopping into it, not needing the license? Or would there be some sort of other AI that would take care of that? Well, I mean, it'll come in stages for sure. I mean, I think some people are planning on using what we call remotely piloted. So there would be a pilot, but he wouldn't be in the machine as an interim approach. But ultimately the goal is to be, have an artificial intelligent agent in the machine that you can converse with and just say, take me to work or whatever like that. And then the vehicle itself will communicate with air traffic management system and route a path for you from point A to point B and then just execute on that flight plan. Okay, awesome. But we're talking probably beyond 2026 before that. No, probably later than that for that to happen. Probably 2028 onwards we'll have that. Hopefully, the FAA will give approval for that. And so speaking of the FAA, I know so this became, this was a competition that turned into your business. Did you have to get any sort of file for any sort of patents to, I know that you said co-predators and co-predators and people also potentially coming out of competitions like this, did you have to file for any sort of ownership of this idea? We did, we do have a patent pending right now. So we do have a file patent and it's kind of a single patent but it's what we call an omnibus patent. So it covers a bunch of different of the technologies that we're using in the single patent. But it's an interesting, there's many, many different configurations of these vehicles. And I mean, I think on one hand, we're fortunate to have my 2005 NASA paper because I have outlined a number of different configurations in there that I can point to and say, well, maybe you have a patent on it but it's right here, it's been here the whole time. So there's some protection with that as well. Awesome that you're so ahead of this time and that it's finally caught up to you, Stephen. I really like that. I've seen, I saw you pitch several years ago over, I wanna say almost five years ago now. So it's, I love to see the journey and how far you've come with this. So what does FAA approval entail? What kind of steps are you moving forward with now? We are taking it one step at a time and the initial step for us is to get the experimental certificate. And then beyond that, we have people on our team that are working out the details of what the next steps are. So there's a lot of people out there that think, oh my gosh, it's gonna cost a billion dollars in 10 years to get this thing certified. And I don't agree with that. I think that they're comparing like what it would cost to get a new jumbo jet certified to a smaller vehicle. I think it's apples and oranges. It's not something that you can compare directly. Certainly it's gonna take some resources and a dedicated team to get all the certifications we need but it's not a billion dollars and it's not 10 years. It's far less and far shorter time scale than that. Another advantage we have at Ziva is that we're small and nimble and we can, on one hand, it's kind of ride the coattails of Ziva or sorry, Joby, for example, because they're kind of the pioneer out there pushing the envelope. And once that trail has been blazed, it should be pretty easy to follow along. Very cool, great things. So the device is called Zero, that's what it's named. That's right, yeah. Is there any particular reason why you've picked that name? Well, it's the first one in a series. It looks like a big, big zero and it's zero emissions. So a couple reasons. All right, I'm digging the theme. That sounds great. Do you have any other models in the works or is you're just focused on this one as the baby for now? That's great. We do have another model in the works and we're always looking at the future. The zero is a prototype that was meant specifically for the Glowfly competition. And not having the restraints of the size will give us the ability to be a more, not only more user-friendly, but more efficient. So the one that we're calling Z2 is going to be much better. And in the short period, we hope to put that up on the website for reservations. Very cool. So you're having active flights with it currently. Is it, I saw pictures of it out in the field. Is that correct? You've done your first flights? Yeah, yeah. We spent quite a bit of time flying inside on Tether like over a year and fine-tuning our flight computer and flight control system. And once we were comfortable with that, then we went out to the farm and as shown in the video that's on our website. And that was a big moment for us because we've been building up to that point for a long time. Very cool, great, great success there. So I'm glad to see that it's up and running. And the sky is the limit for Z2 you called it because you don't have those type of restrictions. Right. So Biden sets goals for 50% of new US vehicles to become electric by 2030. And they're projecting that 90% of vehicles could be electric or sold, at least sold on the market electric by 2050. Do you think that that's somehow, since these are new technologies that are emerging, gonna be a competitor for Ziva? Or do you think that because everything's electric and going zero emission, that this is just an added benefit for Ziva? It's a huge added benefit. I think, you know, initially I think the EVTOL vehicles really shine in places where there is no good infrastructure. So for example, if you compare, let me let me back up and say, Ford sponsored a study about two years ago to show, and they showed what the study showed is that EVTOLs are actually more efficient than ground electric vehicles in some cases. And I would contend that electric aircraft are gonna be, are much more efficient in a lot of scenarios. And that's where they're gonna be deployed first. Let me give you one example would be Norway, where you've got, you know, your highway system looks like a zigzag because you've got all the fjords, right? If you can fly as the crow flies from point A to point B, you cut down the travel time, but by cutting down the travel time, you're cutting down the emissions enormously as well. So another example would be, you know, the Hawaiian islands, for example, or because there's no road that goes from one island to the other. So the most obvious way to get from point A to point B in a hurry, for example, for emergency services would be a vehicle like Ziva. And then there's lots of areas around the world like that. So that exists the Amazon rainforest, you know, the Delta is really almost impenetrable. There's the Indonesia has 17,000 islands. So there's a lot of places around the world that can really benefit from vehicles like this. And I think they'll initially be deployed for emergency services and helping save lives. That's great. I didn't even think of the medical field and how fast response could be from a device like this. And so we mentioned a little bit about not needing as much funding as on the grand scale as maybe others may think, just because we're not comparing these to jets or other vehicles. But what kind of funding have you pursued from the Boeing for the Boeing competition and then after the Boeing competition? We have pursued largely friends and family. We've been looking, you know, we had an angel funding as well. So we've been most successful with friends and family. And then, you know, personally, that members of the team putting money in to keep us floating. We haven't, you know, I feel like we've done amazing things with the amount of budget that we've had. But I also feel like we're just getting started. We're just, we need to get out of the starting blocks and we need significant funding to move forward. So, you know, that's, it's exciting times. And it's also trying times to try to find the dance partners that want to move forward. But, you know, you mentioned some of the Biden's initiatives and stuff coming out of Washington. There's a lot of incentive to get green. And I think that there are a lot of corporate corporations that have, that are in the, you know, transportation industry that are gonna need a partner like us. So, you know, we can, Zeva's kind of set up to mass produce, you know, personal air vehicles. They're compact, they're fast and they can be made inexpensively. So that's, you know, it checks all the three boxes for entrepreneurs out there, you know, faster, smaller, better and cheaper. So that's kind of what we're aiming for is that making something that does the job in a safe manner, but is also very affordable. And how large is your team right now? We've got about 25 people on Team Zeva, but they're not all full-time. So we have maybe a core team of about half a dozen folks. And then the other people we bring in when we need them to work on a specific projects. For example, we don't need to do carbon fiber all the time, only when we need a new body part. So. And are we viewing this as something that could potentially be in every individual's home or potentially a service that people would want to tap into like Uber, for example? You know, originally the thought thinking was personal ownership, because I think ultimately that's the, that saves everybody the most amount of money. So I'd like to see one in every garage by 2040, but I can also imagine where, you know, you're walking through town and you summon a Zeva from your phone and it comes and lands nearby and then you get in and you go to your destination, sort of like a lime scooter model, where, you know, you just use it on demand. So I can see that model happening as well. We're not tied to any one particular business model, but we look forward to investigating multiple business models around the vehicle capabilities. I like how you had a concept, but you're very open to where it's headed. So you're not on this, this needs to happen and this is exactly how I want it to be, but you're really open to the way that the market is and the way that the need or want of your audience is. So I think that that's very admirable from an entrepreneur. And so you have what, let's ask what kind of hurdles do you see coming up here in the future? You said the FAA and needing some certificates. Do you have any other major milestones that you're looking to hit this year? Yeah, we definitely want to get geared up to do a lot more flight testing in, and like you mentioned earlier, doing the higher speed cruise testing. That's, and then at the same time, we want to make prototypes for the Z2 and expand our suite of vehicles. Right now we have one prototype and if something were to happen to it, it would really set the program back. So we need to make some more prototypes and continue flight testing. That's what's up for this year. And was your prototypes, they were built in Washington from mostly local products or local other businesses? Yes, well actually, we are fairly vertically integrated. We designed our own battery packs and had parts of the manufacturer and then we designed our own battery management system and as you can imagine the batteries are really a key piece. We designed a drive train and the control system is based on a open source platform but we've customized that. So I mean, for a small team, we've really done an amazing job of pulling all these pieces together. We actually made the molds and did our own carbon fiber body panels as well. So again, I'm super proud of the team and what we've accomplished. Yeah, that is incredible. That's unheard of for a lot of companies to not have to house or so a lot of things. So your team of 25 sounds amazing, small, but robust and very full of knowledge. So that's amazing that you've collected that group. So I know that you personally, Stephen have been a entrepreneur or a serial entrepreneur and ran for five different startup companies? Yeah, yes. Were they all in the aerospace or in this realm or you said you were an engineer previously? So were they a little bit or were they of a different sector? Yeah, no, different sector. I spent most of my career in semiconductor design or computer chips and but the first startup was a miserable failure because it was way too early in the market. So first lesson was timing is super important. We did a software program for realtors and but the concept required the realtor to have a laptop and at that timeframe, laptops were too expensive for most real estate agents. So that was lesson number one. The second couple of companies were revolving around what chip design and so we did the consulting services for a lot of the chip tops. So semiconductor companies around the world and then we did a company called Silicon Reality and we were making 3D graphics chips when the graphics engine in the PC was converting from a 2D to 3D graphics. So we did that and then here we are at Ziva. FABLAB also was a moderate success although there was really no exit and involves COVID, that was a maker space. And one of the things that I attribute to creating this great team to was the fact that we had this high tech maker space and so I formed a network around that that where I got to know different people and what their capabilities were and then brought them onto the team. Well, you might be in the wrong space if you're knowing everything about chips with this chip shortage we have. I might have jumped out of that realm too soon. I know, right? Yeah, I think about that. Like, yeah, let's go do some chip stuff right now because there's so much money out there. But I'm loving what I'm doing and I think it all applies because you do have to have the deep tech knowledge to pull off the artificial intelligence piece and machine vision and all that kind of stuff. It's very high tech and involves a good degree of knowledge of what the chips can do not necessarily designing, but on what I consider the more fun side which is the applications of the tech. So, very cool. Yes, your experience seems to be relevant and helpful with what you're doing now. I'm very excited to see where this goes. I would be interested in coming and test flying one if you ever have somebody you need that doesn't have a pilot license yet. I would gladly be a guinea pig. All that sounds fun. And I guess just one last question before we leave this show is if you had any advice for other entrepreneurs that are out there currently trying to make it through COVID and get back out there, what experience would you try to advise them of? Yeah, well, first of all, I want to jump back and say you're anxious to see where it's going next and I would say it's up into the right, right? We're going up. Anyway, the two big takeaways from my experience really are it, you know, for me, you know, being a bootstrap guy, cash flow is everything and sustainability. How can you organize your company so that you can survive? You know, in our case right now we've been going for over four years on a very limited budget and, you know, basically, I think success comes through those who can survive and so that's probably number one is just control your cash flow, figure out how to do things very quality but inexpensively and then just, you know, to quote Winston Churchill, never, never, never give up. So you'll want to give up a thousand times. You get, you know, you get told no an infinite number of times and the door closed in your face. I mean, it's just fundraising and doing these kinds of businesses are horrendously difficult. So you just have to, you know, have a mindset of no, I'm going to make this happen. And the second big piece is along those lines is that it, you know, you've heard it but it's very, very true. It's not what you know, it's who you know. And so, you know, this is a lesson that's taken me most of my life to learn. In fact, I think I have to relearn it almost every day which is, you know, build your network, you know, connect with people. People are what it's all about and making those, you know, friendships and established connections are super important and especially if you're trying to change the world, you know, it takes, you can't do it alone. You need to build a team and you need to build a network of people that are willing to help you and stick their neck out a little bit and make it happen. Great advice. Networking seems to be a common theme within this show. Thank you so much, Stephen. I'm excited to see about your transformation of transit in the future and where this goes. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you in about two weeks on Wednesdays at 1 p.m. Hawaiian time. If you'd like to learn about making money, join us. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. 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