 Sure. Hi everyone. My name is Josh Bolick as a scholarly communication librarian at the University of Kansas. Will and Maria, do you want to introduce yourselves as well? Sure. I'm Maria Bonn. I am a professor at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign School of Information Sciences and I direct the Masters of Science in Library and Information Science program there. And although I'm based in Champaign, Illinois, I spent part of my life in the Pacific Northwest, which is where I am today. Oh, and I should say that if our conversation is as full as I hope it will be, I'll have to duck out a little early because I have a command performance meeting back at the office. But you're in good hands with Josh and Will. And thank you so much for showing up for this. Thanks, Maria. And I'm Will Cross. I'm the director of the Copyright and Digital Scholarship Center in the North Carolina State University Libraries. So that means I'm a lawyer who's also a librarian, so I'm really fun at parties. That's true. So, yeah, I thank you all for taking the time to be here. And we hope this is a really participatory and informal conversation. I've been encouraged by the other sessions that I've attended this week that were not formal and were pretty comfortable and small enough to actually have a discussion. So no expectations of any kind of, you know, strict formality on our part for sure in this. As you see fits with or without audio, with or without video, we'll try to monitor the chat. But obviously, you know, this works best if we at least use audio for a discussion. But video is just totally up to you. We do want to affirm the community participation guidelines and our intent to host a safe and respectful conversation that affirms the intrinsic value of all participants. And we already did some kind of participant introduction or kind of where you are in the chat. So I'll skip that part. But we think that this is going to take about an hour and as soon as possible get past the part where Will and Maria and I are talking and can turn into more of a discussion. So here's the agenda that we sketched out, starting with a background on how the scholarly communication notebook fits into our broader project. The Scalcom Notebook is a face of our collaboration, but not the sole face of it. Will is going to introduce the Scalcom Notebook and Maria is going to provide some examples of projects that we recently approved through. We have some funding to provide awards to help build the collection that will be contained therein. And then we'll move so that, you know, this is all framing so that we have enough background to kind of enter into this conversation and engage with these questions together. So if there are no questions so far, our collaboration is born from this mutual realization that topics of increasing importance are poorly addressed by LIS education. All three of us realized at slightly different points, though all roughly in the like early 20 teens, that scholarly communication, librarianship, and issues are ascended in higher ed in particular, but beyond that as well, but that they're not sufficiently addressed with few exceptions by LIS programs. And so there's an attendant problem to that which is that there's a pretty broad gap and the Institute for Museum and Library Services in the US acknowledges this between practitioners and faculty. And so we have people who in the Library and Information Studies programs who are teaching our future colleagues, but maybe have never actually practiced, you know, as a librarian and or there may be a long time since they have done that. And so we're our idea and the source of our collaboration was is an open textbook of scholarly communication librarianship where we would collaborate as broadly as possible to bring as many voices in as we could in within that format to represent practitioner perspectives real on the ground what the work that we do is and how we do it and what theory informs it. And then to go to LIS programs and say we know that you aren't teaching this and we know that there's some legitimate reasons why that might be a struggle, but we as a field have collaborated together to curate that content and give it to you in an open format where it's, you know, either suited to a topic since scholarly communication kind of course or distributed across the curriculum as it intersects with lots of other areas which it does. And so that's the sort of genesis of our project is this open book. That's forthcoming by ACRL we hope in the coming year it will have a CC buy and see license. There are over 50 contributors to it and that's the thing that I will be the most proud of I think is the amazing people that have contributed their time and ideas to it. I'm really proud of who we've pulled together as both editors as well as as authors, but in having discussions about the book and pursuing research that informs it we and in lots of discussions with colleagues we realize that a book is necessarily limited. It's static. It's narrow in that even with 50 contributors 50 does not make the entire field right and it's exclusive like there's still we selected the people that that are included there and that there's bias cooked into that because it's unavoidable right and so rather than a single resource we really need a corpus of content that instructors and students and practitioners can utilize to learn about scarlet communication topics and that led us to conceive of what we're calling the scarlet communication notebook which is a direct nod to Rajiv, John Gianni and Robin DeRosa's open pedagogy notebook and I now will is going to tell you more about that. Right thanks Josh so so exactly as Josh said we're really excited about the book as a model for creating sort of static textbooky open educational resources. It offers this great bridge between the classroom and the field. It emphasizes through those 50 editors in other ways the idea that there's no single sort of right way to do Skalcom that there are a multiplicity of different approaches to that and it we sort of recognize that no static resource can reflect that multiplicity of approaches that make Skalcom in particular great right it's a field where the fun stuff is it's about exploring and asking questions and trying new things not about sort of doing it the right way. So we hope the open license is going to help with that in the context of the book but we also have been having a lot of conversations about how we model and facilitate that sense of transformation and exploration and de-centering a one sort of unified right way to do it right. So said differently if the book is the OER what does the open pedagogy piece look like how do we do the open open pedagogy aspect of this OER plus Skalcom stuff and the themes we kept coming back to are very open pedagogy themes right centering de-centering individual authors and connecting diverse and exploratory voices and approaches empowering students to create something that contributes to the commons in some way because that values it differently and it refreshes it in important ways in short making it about the people and the process not just the stuff right that's what Skalcom is about that's what open pedagogy is about so how do we connect those things and our first sort of stab at answering those questions or maybe at least exploring those questions is this thing Josh mentioned the scholarly communication notebook. We reached out to IMLS and got some funding to sort of get it started and it's so far taken kind of three different aspects there's sort of three pieces to it. The first is that the Skalcom notebook is going to be a hub in OER commons a place for sharing materials and models that's sort of where the stuff piece of it lives and that should be ready in the next few weeks I think it's certainly spinning up now. The second is that we're explicitly tying this to open pedagogical practices and assignments and we've been lucky to have several faculty members at LIS programs agree to incorporate this as a way to sort of do the open pedagogy work and practices in their own classrooms and Maria is one of those as well so she can potentially speak to that but the idea is one of your assignments maybe your final assignment is you know pull some resources fork them and make them relevant in new contexts or identify gaps and fill them in so the work of learning about Skalcom becomes engaging with and participating in this scholarly communications notebook. So that's the process that the stuff and the process right and then the third is what this quote here is pointing to the stuff and the process are important but at the end of the day the people is what really makes anything work so really trying to talk about this and build this up as a locus for community for the people who are doing the work and using this stuff that's sort of the ultimate aim of the scholarly communications notebook that we're going to be trying to to at least figure out and get started over the next couple of years and this conference presentation is one of the things that we're going to be doing to make that happen. So yeah Josh your intuition is right on the next slide the other sort of first thing we've done is most of the grant that we got from IMLS is going to be used to provide sub awards to individual contributors to ask them to look at the resources we've gathered and developed and say like this looks pretty white or this looks pretty R1 centric or the models for Skalcom that you've shared so far don't reflect you know this identity this institution type this type of practices this emergent discipline or field etc so we want to contribute something new so I guess a little over a month ago we we sent out our first CFP and we invited people to develop a resource that talks about Skalcom in a new way it could be somebody who says this is very R1-ish and I'm coming from a community college and I want to talk about how research data management fits in that context it could be about you know this model reflects only a certain set of identities and so I want to talk about copyright in this different way etc so we released our CFP we got a lot of really really nice proposals and we're able to fund them with a you can see $2,500 there just to recognize the labor and to model that sense that we're not asking you to share to make our project better we're not asking you to share out of the goodness of your heart we want to recognize that labor as well so we're doing the testing and relationships we're offering this funding and we're excited to have in hand and be working to develop with those creators the first set of newly created materials that we help will model sort of what the SCN can be and I'll turn it over now to Maria to talk about a few examples from that practice that process great I'll start just by saying a word about how this is playing out in my classroom so far we don't have the hub or the resources yet so I can't incorporate them into my syllabus for my scholarly communication class which I've been teaching for I developed at UIUC and I've been teaching for a while and it's interesting to see it increase in popularity as students become more aware of the possibilities of working in this area and in the past I've said final project you can do a research paper you can do a research presentation what suits your temperament and your interests this year I added the option of developing an educational resource and I told the people who chose that we talk as we went about what it means to make it open and that reflects on some aspect or tries to educate about some aspect of scholarly communication and my students are doing cool things not all some of them are scared they said we don't know what that means and that's led to some good conversations about what an educational resource is exactly but they want to opt for something more traditional but some said this sounds fun I'll just you know one that's coming out of my students maybe someday it'll be in our hub choose your own adventure story about creative commons licensing if you which license do you apply and where might that that lead you or perhaps you choose not to apply the license and where might that lead you still in development it won't have it to show until December what that's going on we did get some wonderful responses to our call for papers and our interest our goal was really to have a lot of diversity in different ways diversity in terms of the identity perspective of the creators diversity in terms of the institution in which the resources were coming we recognize that that scholarship does doesn't just happen at big are ones where actually the three of us all all reside at the moment at the moment it's happening at community colleges and tribal colleges and small liberal arts colleges and we wanted diversity in terms of the kinds of submissions the formats the materials and we did pretty well with that we'd still like it to be more and that's will be our goal as we move forward but we did get a good representation of kinds of places and we also got a really interesting variety of what these resources will be so just a few this is a research study instrument that was developed and was used already to understand the attitudes and the stakes for BIPOC faculty in using open access so making that instrument available if students wanted to try to replicate the research conduct it their own way and also a lesson plan to support that josh we're new the next one that's something a bit more playful interesting a piece of interactive fiction that will imagine a scholarly communication librarian in a somewhat distant future quotes i noticed the word dystopian it's not in here i like that because so how might a scholarly communication librarian be working in a few years unspecified still in 2020 yes but interactive fiction next one another playful one i think we have a mostly north american audience so i don't have to be concerned that people don't know what jeopardy is but it's a quiz game of course we recently lost its host much lamented but i'm not sure how the hosting function will feature in this quiz game but this one will be focused on copyright research data management and engage students through game playing i have a game studies expert on my faculty and i showed this to her and she said oh this is so cool i tell you you can gamify it anything but she's looking forward to seeing this one and last one will feature today is a more traditional lesson plan but focused on issues of cultural competency and privacy which are both in the lis education world very hot topics so that's interesting to me to see that come together with thinking about skull com topics like open educational resources so look for these soon we hope to have them out in the world early in 2021 people have been notified of their acceptance they're working on them right now and we'll be looking forward to incorporating them into my classroom and i hope you'll be able to make use of them as well jash you want to start our our place where our guests get to speak yeah um and maybe before we move into our more you know structured questions um i'm going to adjust my audio real quick um so is anybody does anybody have questions to this point like is the concept of the skull com notebook and the like purpose of it um is anybody lost or does anybody have questions about this like sort of fundamental um and we can talk about that for a minute if there are any questions i do want to make clear that we have i think total it's about seventy five thousand dollars to give out i think we think something like thirty one awards of twenty five hundred dollars um that is funding to you know intentionally curate and populate the scn with the kind of content that we've been talking about um so that it's not just all our one for the people like us that have this kind of support to do that but getting an award will not be necessary to contributing content to the scn it'll be an open platform that anyone can use and contribute to um but these awards are an opportunity to think intentionally about populating it with um the kind of content that we have in mind and also the kinds of content that we haven't conceived of because of our limited ability to understand all everything right so is everybody comfortable at least with what all sort of framing is and i'll just add if you have materials right now that would be great for the skull com notebook reach out to us please we don't have the submission mechanism yet but it will be coming soon and we'd love to talk to you about that absolutely and to piggyback on what josh said the first cfp was deliberately pretty wide open and vague because along with asking people to contribute things we're sort of using the opportunity to think about what is the you know what's the shape of a thing that might go in the scn you know obviously it could be a text document or an image or a podcast or something like that but thinking about what shape should it look like what is the metadata around it look like etc so we're i think we're learning a lot of really good lessons about how to bring the stuff together that's attached to the people in the process and we've already seen some great examples i wouldn't have thought to solicit a jeopardy style game or a dystopian cyber punky future kind of things so we've already made some discoveries yeah okay great um so with uh moving forward feel free to jump in at any point so um this was the this is a version of the question that's posted uh with the abstract for the presentation how can we build a community and a platform and to our minds those things are intrinsically connected to each other um that's not only open to but inviting for global participation and we you know the people who attended today i i think are maybe mostly in north america so right it's difficult for the three of us or the i think 13 of us total that are on the the meeting now to account for global participation but we can still talk talk about it um so and participation in the scn is primarily two modes right one is using content in the scn either in instruction or in uh like outside of a formal instructional context maybe someone who wants to learn more about copyright or fair use or creative comments licenses or whatever whatever the case may be um so there's users and there's also contributors many of you on this call might well could fit into both of those camps right depending on where your skill set lies and what you're interested in developing further but also what your knowledge and experiences and what you may have to contribute um and so i have some sub questions to help break this complex question up a little bit but does anybody want to comment on um how we go about building a community and platform that is not only open to but inviting for global participation and also apple while you're gathering your thoughts i'll add one other thing which is it's easy to talk about the scn as a sort of a read write either you write something and somebody else reads it or they write something and you read it um i think there's space for a lot of other in between things obviously writing reviews is something we think about a lot in terms of open educational resources um but i think the of an active community is forking things and mining the data in things and writing reviews about things and right there's a whole world of engaging with being inspired by critiquing etc that can happen that that is somewhere in between i wrote a thing somebody should read it and somebody wrote a thing i'm gonna read it anyone have anything to say at the high level um and if not i can jump into the sub questions which might be a good vehicle for um kind of breaking apart this really admittedly broad question um i have a question for you guys um something that i've always thought of this and when i hear scholarly communication i always think of higher education context but then when i think about creative commons or fair use like k-12 does come to mind and i was wondering how you envision that and if you think of it as open to like school librarians as well or something like that yeah absolutely um yeah i mean we are based in higher education and our primary audience you know we're kind of pointing at his library and information studies faculty and uh and graduate students but we definitely embrace and recognize that these topics are not exclusive to that audience within higher ed that that audience doesn't exclusively operate in higher ed and that right like copyright is people when i talk about it is it's universal it's ubiquitous it's everywhere right it infuses so many aspects of daily mundane modern life and yeah creative commons licenses there's over 1.6 billion things that have been licensed with the cc license obviously all of that is not appropriate for you know like the vast majority of it acts much broader than than higher ed not to open educational resources that shows up in this conference there are k-12 sessions there's a rule for kind of like non-educational settings and people learning and continuing their sort of like professional or personal growth so yeah i mean i think you know we i don't we have to think about whether or not we can be all things to all people i mean obviously i think we can't but the platform will not have a login right for uh users and so the the intent is to be able to utilize content whatever uh place setting mode whether we conceived of it from the gig or not but we do want to think probably about that i'll just add that uh open education was a later addition to my syllabus in scholar communication the first time i taught it which was think back 2014 the open education conversation wasn't quite as robust it was there but not as robust as it is these days and then after a couple years i thought hmm i saw open education work often aligning with scholar communication work in the field and thought the student should be aware of that but what i've begun to say to my students is that the classroom is really the primary site of scholar communication it's the very first place in which scholarship is communicated to young developing scholars and that could begin to kindergarteners that they saw and maybe the beauty of having these open objects that can be remixed remade is that educators can tailor them to that audience uh one of my students now is starting to think toward public libraries not academic libraries but she's very engaged for the issues and the day we were talking about publishing and things like oj h she said so this could be used like for a community journal right we could figure out how to i don't know voice uh the history of the community in a in a journal that was made by the public libraries sure you could do that but you could imagine that kind of thing moved into a high school classroom as well i think there are opportunities there great and danielle i see your your comment in the chat um and i think you're right i mean there's um you know like the babson survey if you're familiar with that we know that one of the barriers to greater use of oer is a lack of faculty awareness of where to find it and so that like the open education network and the open textbook library is something that we're trying to solve is at least within skullcom topics to be able to say here's a a site or you know our project site um an openly licensed book from a publisher that you understand and value acrl um the association of college and research libraries in the us and uh corpus of content that relates to it that's more modular uh and um community driven um but we do have you know so that they have a place to look but you're right in that we're not i don't think too focused on the things have to be there and in fact there's lots of things that already exist of course that would be really appropriate for having in the scn um or linking to from the scn and sort of creating recognizing that whether we did the scn or not there's a like network of this kind of stuff and we're trying to provide sort of a landing page where people who are less familiar with it and the sources can find it as a starting point to help facilitate that growth and use um and teaching of the skills and knowledge um but one of the things that we want to do with our funded projects that we're accepting to the scn is create blog posts you know have blog posts for each project and then you know distribute those on social media and other places as it makes sense and so like thinking you know broadly about that but you you make a really good point about not being too myopically focused on like a single platform um so this is okay sorry I was going to say I I think it's I think it's a point well made especially the the sort of the tech you use the term tech phobic and that's probably overstating it at least for myself who's just sort of tech uncertain sometimes but um we initially explored some platforms that were much higher barrier to entry like github and we rejected those for some of the reasons I think I hear in your comment which is that that can feel daunting I think OER Commons is the is the sort of easiest to pick up and use it basically just feels like a webpage but I do think there's value in having some sort of center of gravity that the community can sort of orbit around in different ways and I think there's value in gathering some of the artifacts in a way that you can point to it and say I did that right that's the open pedagogy contribute to the commons thing um and if you want you can put an alt metrics donut on that and say like oh this has been really impactful if I'm a scholar I can show that to my promotion and tenure faculty if I'm going home for the holidays I can show it to my family and say whoa a hundred thousand people downloaded this thing I made I I think um not as a barrier not as the only way to do it but I do think there's some value to that center of gravity interactive events is definitely something that we're we're thinking about um and pointing to different audiences like how do we engage directly with LIS students independent of their faculty how do we engage directly with uh LIS faculty and and so on um and creating opportunities to to engage um so here's what I think you know like something being useful to any audience is that it has to address needs right and so um to the extent well you know we have ideas about what the skullcom topics are that are most pressing uh or most in need of teaching and learning content but we are all based at our ones in the united states and so um we wondered if this group has ideas about you know what are the most the the skullcom topics that you see in in most need of teaching and learning content these might be niche to like open education is a big topic but like what are like accessibility in open education is a smaller topic and even within that you can get into more you know pieces obviously but we we wonder as we're thinking about gaps to address what what you think those gaps are and one way into that question with with an OER sort of framing is what when you started your job did you not know that you wish somebody had told you what if you had had a co-worker who could have taken you aside and said hey you need to know that you know the open textbook library has these ratings and faculty sometimes find that really powerful like what's what's the stuff that that you wish you had known that you didn't know when you started you're doing your work peer review for open textbooks absolutely I think also to build on that Stacey uh like as a new librarian the first time uh I was asked to do a peer review I went to one of my mentors and said do you have any input about how I go about this because I had never had any like training in it and they actually said they've never done one which sort of blew my mind and so then I had to like kind of figure it out uh and there was you know the journal editor and other kind of guidelines and stuff to to do that um but I think resources in teaching how to do a journal peer review but higher end context that's something that if I mean if you're in a research role you're likely to be asked to do certainly as an author of research articles I think it's kind of my responsibility to do about two reviews for every paper that I have published or submit that under those review I've been in this game for a couple of decades now so I'm thinking back to when I started working in it and uh but all along the way and I'm seeing a little bit of this here might be um it would have been good to know more I try to talk about this with my students some now about points of resistance uh to participating in we could say open education or what we call in the title of our book open culture uh on the part on the part of scholars because you know I'm sort of a good hearted commie and I was like oh of course everybody wants to do this share your work making the world a better place uh but not all that way and we have some um pretty well articulated reasons why not but it's it's taken me a while and I'm still discovering it with my colleagues now to understand like why not do this that would be good to know more about um Danielle can would you be willing to say more about um your comment the gap in knowledge about student performance and learning experience when using innovative approaches do you mean like assessing up in pedagogic practices for example um hi I I've done my phd on on open educational practices um and so where I'm coming from is that the literature generally in open education seems to be about students perceptions um and there's very little that measures student performance uh there's you know it would also be nice to to see about different ways to improve the learning experience um how to make it more effective and going beyond students perceptions because just because you perceive uh your learning to be better doesn't mean it actually is um there's the author I think it's Julie Durkin or Dirksen who is an instructional designer and she explains just because something is your preference just you know people have that thing oh I'm a visual learner oh I'm an auditory learner uh are you really um so what I'm saying is that based on what I've seen there's not enough to measure student performance using different techniques and I'm against open just for the sake of open so I for me it's open for a purpose is important yeah and when I have talked to um about the research on open at my own institution um like at the Center for Teaching Excellence for example the head of that is a psychologist and they immediately go to like well perceptions you know um and sort of they're unconvinced by that okay um we can so um I need to close the chat and participants which I'm been monitoring so you know when we think about users what is it what what criteria uh are important what in you know invites or acknowledges participation what is sufficient or if not you know sufficient the original question that this is breaking down right is uh a community and platform that is open to and inviting for broad participation and so you know if we think about users and the next one is contributors um what what should we be thinking about in setting the in framing and design and marketing and our approaches yeah relevance ease of use but we talked some earlier about technical barriers and how that would sort of be the opposite of ease of use are there other things that would make something feel easy to use like what what's an example of something that's easy to use or maybe what's the opposite what's something that you go I'd love to use that but it's just not worth the trouble Jess when you say platform agnostic you mean like not developing in a software that requires the use of that software like using open tools and that sort of thing yeah great yeah and Danielle you talk about easy to adapt into current teaching approaches that's something we've been really puzzling over in our heads is what's the we keep using great words like pedagogical apparatus but like what's the what's the stuff that goes along with an interesting resource that makes it really easy to plug into a classroom and use right away and I think we've we've got some ideas about that but any anybody who wants to share here's how you transform something from an object to a learning object that's something I don't know much about and I've been excited to learn more about and Stacy I'm also as an instructor that's that's tricky because you know I'm I'm trying to walk the talk all the time and when it comes to when I need something for a class I'm like okay how do I use this exactly a quick example I included for the first time in my class the CRA unit on researcher identity I talked about it as communicating scholarly identity as part of scholars scholarly communication it's like well crap I haven't taught this before what am I gonna do so I reached out to my friends Josh and Will who I know do a lot of workshops and educational work and have you all done stuff well they had wonderful slidesuits both of them which happened to be CC licensed I got them from my friends but of course they were also a kind of open educational resource and then I sat there with the two of them going okay how do I make these mine how do I fit them into the class worked really well I was an amalgamation I had to dink around with the themes of two different slidesets to make it all look nice but then I still had to impose some apparatus and and comments around them to make it work in the classroom it worked well but it's something we're asking the faculty to even though we're meeting a need that they have that they have to do the work to make it work in their classroom Stacy I love your idea about like a pathway like taking a concept and providing like an act like someone with content expertise a path that uses resources that scaffolded um is really interesting so um the same question but again I need to be able to see the slides but for contributors so if we're thinking about like what would be attractive to you to share your content and it might be that uh funding is the answer right like that's why we have the the IMLS funding to distribute over the next there were two more rounds over the next 18 to 24 months but what if there's not funding well you know there's limited funding we can give out about 31 of those awards so like what why would you contribute content to the SEM what can we do to make that open to contribution and inviting to contribution it's a great point stating the health efficacy piece that's we we did a bunch of these workshops that are that were just about micro creation of OER where it was like think about something not academic right I know how to juggle so make a little quick OER and how to teach somebody how to juggle so I I I think one of the things that we think about is like if it's something you know how to do share it and maybe it's useful to a million people and maybe it's useful to just one person who wants to learn how to juggle or whatever but like sharing information is is a positive good in and of itself as long as the barriers aren't too high and the costs are pretty limited but that's a that's a really good point like who cares about my stuff is a question we all ask a lot I'm sure yeah being new to the Midwest to the American Midwest there's this like Midwest humility thing that is very very real here where people do not brag on themselves they you know like just don't do it I love this idea idea too of quick and clear feedback on that thing I could imagine us saying like a quick thanks this is awesome we appreciate it I could imagine supporting folks who offer a more formal review process right this could be like a journal and that there's actually some peer review this could also be like the otl in that users just offer feedback when they're considering it or when they're using it when you say feedback is it I imagine it's some of both but which looms larger thanks for your contribution we see in value your labor I'm also an expert and these are the strengths and weaknesses of this thing or something else Danielle we your comment in the chat we we struggled with in our first call for proposals well we've been talking about like open learning objects and then sort of going like interrogating now what what is what does that mean and like what you know we can of course we you know we have ideas but we didn't want to limit people might have better ideas or broader ideas or more expansive ideas just like things that we didn't conceive of and so we wanted to be intentionally open and flexible but I think over time we'll get a better grasp on that and we'll be able to provide guidance in that direction while I hope maintaining that maybe somebody has a really awesome idea for something that we are creative enough to consider and you know that being also welcome yeah we've talked about having one of the nice things about the hubs is you can have like little sub areas in there and so saying like this is a copyright topic and so I could imagine I'm a copyright nerd so just going to a resource like this once a month and saying like well what new copyright stuff has popped up so the labeling it in that way whether that's metadata or folders or whatever that's useful on the other hand we don't want the copyright and research data to not go in research data etc so so identifying in a way that makes it clear but not sort of limiting or imposing so maybe we've mined this so I think Maria this is a question in some ways we've already asked the question I was going to use to guide this a bit many of you probably consider yourself scholars you certainly support scholars in the course of your work and we're wondering what you see as the diversity of needs but Josh also asked like what what do people need but I'm thinking particularly in the global context how might global needs differ and three things came to mind as we were talking earlier one is sure well what has something to say about this copyright law is different in different countries and on different continents and copyright practices that how the cultural feels about them and how can we reflect that I was also put in mind of I'm on the Publications Committee for ACES the Society for Information Science and Technology and I've been trying to make some trouble and say hey maybe our journal should be open access you know we're all about access there's a problem that Jace's the premier journal actually brings in quite a bit of money for the society so they're reluctant on that but one of the other members of the committee is a woman on a faculty in Nigeria and she chatted me privately you know let's me see you don't understand there's no way I could pay I could pay publication fees no way I can come up with that kind of money that's just such a barrier to entry for me and it would be for a lot of people in the developing world of course there's other models for for financing open access but you know that's something we may not be sensitive to in our relatively wealthy position those were a couple that I that I thought of what are some other how do we address the diversity of global needs are there are they different topics if it's outside of North America I didn't I'm sure do we have any Canadians we did on the chat right now you know maybe there's just difference between the U.S. and Canada is where are there some venues for we can be in to listen to understand what the diversity of needs is a Canadian hey oh language that's interesting but I just on Tuesday one of my students did a presentation on language as a barrier to scholarship she's her research indicated that 80 percent of scientific publishing is in English and so you know what does that what does that mean for people who are fluent or who may not be as comfortable in that language even in a really I think maybe minor way a lot of the contributors to our book are either Canadian or based in Canada and so are the different spellings like theater and color and the you know minor same language a little bit different spellings and so I we haven't tackled this yet yeah as as editors but we'll either have to align it all in the American spelling or align it all in the Canadian spelling or let the book have both and not fret over it um and uh I you know what I don't know if acrl has an opinion about that um but just another like thing to wrestle uh in a net big editorial project yeah that biblio diversity topic is something we've been kicking around a little bit internally and it's something we've seen a lot in the skull come literature so I think this is another place where the the skull comey questions and the oer questions align in really important ways maria had to deck out for her other uh mandated meeting but will do you want to take over the last question uh sure yeah so the last question is about um we talk about it as practices policies and supports but it really gets to that um the idea we talked about earlier of building this this sort of framework for openness in a different way particularly as we move into the global context um so maybe the next question the sort of sub question I've got on the next slide is a nice way into that um we're all not just North America but us and in particular what are the dumb assumptions where we might be making what are the things that that we are aren't even thinking about like labor labor um or that sort of thing that we should be aware of as we try to make this more of a global resource um so to the extent that you have that perspective sharing it would be awesome or to the extent that you've done that work yeah suggest money for sure yep that's a big one absolutely um and so far our funding because it's come from a US agency it's been a lot easier to pay somebody in the US so as we start thinking about connecting to global audiences um yeah thinking about ways we can do that as you all have done work in open education right we we talk about these as global resources in a sense right that this open textbook can be used by anybody in the world um and often we then talk about sort of localizing it in different ways but but I'm curious if that's something you all have wrestled with as well and I see a comment in the chat here about fit yeah yeah very america-centric can you say more about that do you do you mean we need to make it so it's comfortable for different interested folks or hi yeah it's cindy and yes I think so I think a lot of times um it's like when you're doing work with inclusivity um you have to make sure that you're being very um cognizant of other people um I know language was mentioned but um that they feel this is also directed toward them it's not just directed toward one group of people I I'm on a number of listeners from the UK and I do find and yeah obviously a lot of their you know announcements and such relate specifically to their country but I feel that everything they put out and discuss I do also you know so I feel included in the conversation and um I just think that's something you have to keep in mind probably because I'm doing I'm on a committee right now inclusivity but I think that's something that's easy to forget for sure that's I think the the number one thing that keeps me up at night with this project is the sort of nothing about us without us aspect of that and the right and that's where open ed is right now it's not enough to say here's a thing with an open license problem solved everything's okay now right um it's it's building in the the social supports and the structural supports and everything so yeah I I don't expect you have a magic wand either if you do please wait a bit but um that's that's our our work and everybody's work I think for the foreseeable future in this space yeah I mean and we know that there are a ton of assumptions in the open education community that everything we create is magically accessible or that everyone has the bandwidth or that um everyone has the technical capability of modifying content like we say it's modifiable and that's legally true but is it technically true um Jess if you're still here I think about and refer to your keynote from the open education conference two years ago really regularly on this is like how the struggle of doing as much as we can and yet recognizing that it's not enough or and maybe it's not as much as we can um that like what is our level of tolerance for um the the gaps and particularly the the people who fall through those gaps thank you for that by the way like it still really resonates uh and I think about it a good bit well thanks Josh um that's amazing to hear if it it's it's an unfair ask in some ways um to always um prod people with that but it seems that every once in a while we need to be shaken out of our assumptions one of the assumptions that I start to think about when I start to think about um scholarly communications is who gets to publish and what does it look like to publish does it have to be a book um what in other words what are the forms that we're recreating and is it necessary that we recreate those or can we imagine it happening in a very different way what would that look like and you know what are the platforms that support that what are the platforms that stand in the way of that yeah like in if I think about our book um the even within our collaboration so like will is not in a tenure track role and in like in and in a lot of ways is like who cares about that I think and is that fair will um yeah I have the privilege of not having to worry about that right and I am and like my tenure file is being considered by my institution right now um and so like we even within our collaborative Maria is also though in a more senior position um you know we within our work we I have to think about how to fit it in boxes that are recognized as having value right and then when we're thinking about the if we want the stuff to be adopted and utilized in LIS programs then we need to appeal to LIS faculty who frequently think of themselves more like English faculty or any other disciplinary department than they do like librarians and so like they're cut presenting them with something that they recognize and don't just like reject out of hand was something that we were thinking about but we also want you know with that product done to think like well what is like the you know what what are the other um possibilities and like one of them that I'm almost certain will develop is uh like a press books um mounted version of it with lots of multimedia and um additional content because we won't be limited by book format you know and that's still bookie right but like I think you're you make an excellent point where like we are both reifying like book to appeal as well as to work within our the own reward structures that we're subject to um and trying to challenge and complicate that as well it's a it's a weird sometimes uncomfortable place to be but like that's a rich place to be as well there's a ton of potential there I think that's the work of Scalcom to a certain extent I'm sorry please go ahead I was just gonna say sorry well it's it's interesting um a couple of things you will you you and I have the privilege of not being encumbered by this because we're not tender track and that there is a privilege in that I also was it a session I think it opened and last week it's all blurring together now but um somebody was talking about the act of being professionalized and um you know she was talking about it from the perspective of a tenure track junior faculty member and it kind of struck me it's really interesting because at the same time I want to understand when somebody becomes professionalized I want to understand when they become radicalized so in their teaching do they refuse to use cis white men I mean I heard that from a lot of people at open ed last week and you know that's one choice um you know do you refuse to use resources that aren't open to you where are you drawing a line and standing up and saying this is my active resistance I can't change the academy I can't change hundreds of years of expectations and maybe I could have a little bit of a pinch on the tenure track committee and uh encourage them to sort of see that the world is more complex but um it makes me uh it's the contrarian in me I think that whenever there's a form I want to ask about the anti-form yeah that's absolutely right thanks for sharing I'll the the humility that I try to bring to it is for a lot of faculty some faculty like a textbook because that's the thing they know and textbooks are good and proper but for a lot of faculty asking them to move away from a textbook is asking a lot of labor from them and so I think the work of Skalcom in general is saying like this is an old calcified inequitable crappy system but there's some stuff that if we threw that out too that would that would put a lot of labor on a lot of people particularly adjuncts and folks who you know who are already under a lot of stress so so the value of a book is if you need the structure of a book here you go it's scaffolded really well it builds on itself really well and we're going to try to transform the pieces of it that aren't great by not having just a single correct author or whatever but but Josh to your point I think there's a there's a we use the textbook because it's valued in certain ways but there's also value in the structure of a textbook and I think I always try to write I get to be on the ramparts going like throw it burn it all down change everything but then I have to go to a faculty member who's like no I'm I need those ancillary materials because I'm I'm teaching five courses at three different institutions asking me to change everything is just asking a lot on my behalf from your position of not having to do the work so I think our job is to say throw out the crappy stuff find the good stuff and try to build on that and keep that as well and that's that's hard work but I think it's really necessary work whether it's copyright or data management or open education or whatever well and that I mean you know to think more broadly than open ed or like teaching folk goal points that it's got more broadly and there's lots of that as well right like not only should you publish which is the main thing that you're rewarded for that your career depends on but you know you should be critical of your publication contracts you should read them carefully understand them and archive them and name them in a format that makes sense in six years you should put your accepted manuscript somewhere that people more broadly than subscribing institutions have access to them when it comes to data all you know that's the principle I think I don't work a lot on research data management but when I had conversations with scholars they're like wait now I have to like have a data management plan and execute that plan like and they think about the risk but the unrewarded nature of that in the formal reward structure as well as the real or imagined risk that they're taking in the vulnerability of that you know of making their data available I had one a social scientist say like yeah but career scholarship scholarship is adversarial and careers are made and broken by establishing or undermining a point and and I was like yeah but like if you objectively don't you see that that is better science and that's good and he said sure but I want tenure and like I want to paycheck and like it's hard to be really critical of that in that that conversation I mean it's complicated really good discussion maybe we go to the next question which I think is the last question that we have and I'm getting some echo here so I apologize for that but this is this is in some in some sense the big question that we're wrestling with which is if our if our job is to genuinely invite and make possible participation from people we have done a bad job at connecting with in the past how do we do that in a way that's meaningful and real and genuine as opposed to just sort of performative or like we we did what we said we were supposed to do so we we want our cookie now right and it's it's framed here in terms of a global audience but we could say the same thing about community colleges or tribal colleges or anybody who has been excluded traditionally from this work how do you genuinely open a door and and pave the road or do whatever metaphor you want for for making that participation possible right so far we focused on the idea of funding contributions with the idea that that recognizes labor that that gives you some models to say like this is for you too community college folks here are 10 awesome community college people doing that work is is that the trick is is it about doing outreach in specific fields communities nations is it about saying like maybe the problem is your three you know r1e white you know whatever people you need ongoing guidance that's recognized and rewarded from people who are in you know if you want a global audience maybe don't all be from the US if you want to know whatever audience etc so so and again if you have a magic wand for this you can you can wave your magic wand and you'll can retire to your own private island but I any any tips you can have on how to address this one I think will make the work so much stronger I I think it's really important to find them if need be and invite them because nothing is worse than coming to something whatever it is and it's the same old people you know the five to ten people that you hear about on every listserv or you know you know obviously they've achieved well and and their voice is definitely heard but for all of those voices there are probably hundreds or thousands of voices that aren't heard and I think that's the real way to reach out because you can post things on listservs and that's a good thing to do I mean that's one way but I think you have to just be more intrusive than that or you won't get the diversity that you want and that's both you know stateside Canada and also international you know they exist out there but they're hidden gems and I think that's just really important thank you Cindy maybe we are at final thoughts yeah I was gonna say maybe that was a Friday and click forward I don't know if we established who would kind of take and run with final final thoughts but I it has been you know like the the questions are are big ones and like to me feel amorphous and like we're talking about like a globe like research the research enterprise scholarship these concepts are global in nature and yet local many of their applications and practices and we're trying to think expansively about all of our work but especially the you know we don't want to just replicate Matt ruin who's at Grand Valley State University in Michigan we hosted an event a couple years ago with our first IMLS grant funding we got about 40 people together in in Raleigh, North Carolina at NC State and talked for a day and a half about what is scholarly communication how do we do it like what should be in the book and there was some noise on Twitter of course and Matt made a really excellent point that like there's this interesting event going on and I'm seeing good things come out of it but they're they're they're all R1 people and they mostly were and we we want to you know we are R1 people and that's a privilege you know and their costs and benefits associated with that and we want to be critical and thoughtful in not just providing resources that are useful in our own context because research and teaching isn't only happening in our own context in fact frequently it's being done far more effectively but not in our contexts so this has been useful for us in kind of checking some of our assumptions and brainstorming and we really do appreciate your time we do try to maintain our website that LIS um do we have it on the next slide no um it's back here um and I can't see it because of I said LIS dot wordpress.incsu.edu and we're we're we're really available um so we um this is where we push our CFPs we also push them to Twitter um we invite comments and um saying in touch and feedback including critical feedback um and uh really appreciate everyone spending your time there's a lot of great sessions going on right now and so um we appreciate you coming to this one and hope that you got something useful out of it uh we have and Will do you want to add anything to that? No I think you said it really well we like so in terms of next steps we're gonna we're gonna keep pushing the calls the first one was the the sort of subversion of it was help us figure out what a CFP should look like help us figure out what we're gonna look like the next two I think are gonna have a a new sort of area of focus so it might be right but right our work is is gonna continue to be filling in gaps so it might be we've noticed that it's all R1 so now we're gonna focus specifically on non R1 folks it might be it's all academics so we need mostly professionals and people who aren't in the academy um but helping us think through the gaps in particular right this is you you had been covering zero percent now you're covering 20 percent okay let's talk about 30 40 and on from there so that I think we're we're doing the best we know how to do but the more people point out areas that we can improve or gaps the the better a job we can do and the better the project will be overall so thank you for helping us do a little of that work here I hope it was useful yeah we definitely want to live in beta right like this is never done work this is just like it um iterating towards better I guess thank you so much I wonder if we want to stop the recording and can still hang out for a while yeah we're I mean I'm this session goes for another 40 minutes technically and I'm happy to hang out for that time but if people want to do other things they're they're certainly welcome so yeah can I stop the recording nope