 Very good. Welcome back. I hope you will enjoy the fireside chat as much as I did And now we are moving to a panel where we're actually to steal a airplane metaphor We're getting closer to the runway. I'm not quite sure what altitude we'll see But we want to kind of get into more of the details from our panel of speakers Speaking of which I Appreciate miss. It's joining us virtually He's under somewhat of a time pressure and I have to leave At 12 15 so I will slightly rejig the panel to make sure that has enough Time to to to share his thoughts on this important discussion What I'll do though is first Top of welcoming our esteemed panel, but also briefly introduce them. So started with Peter Ocho is the deputy minister for industry and trades in charge of digitalization and innovation Has extensive experience Across a wide variety of various finance budget structural funds and co-driving investments into Jackie As mentioned earlier and introduced earlier of Mrs. Gaffey Recently took over the leadership for those who are joining us online For this particular panel of our digit at the European Commission Maria Yeah, sorry miss Gaffey next time I'll get my Irish ones anyway Welcome. So Maria is the long-standing Swedish civil servant Swedish and Swedish government hands-on open source experience ministry of employment and now working at agency digital development the dig so You're the term you purposely sat make for each other to start collaborating. Actually, that's already happens. Yes They're right for the first possible meeting. So and then last Mr. Profan again, I've Introduced him before but I think the important thing is here is he's the advisor to the minister of digitization. That's the part I spoke earlier is very much in in involved in this digital agency, which is recently recently taken off So I'm gonna turn first to to you minister if I may I think it's fitting to start with a question about competitiveness Given your role in industry and trade. How would you assess the Understanding and adoption across business sectors across the public sector Even political groups as the open sources enabling role in driving Competitiveness welcome and thank you So, thank you very much and greetings to Bruno. I'm officially unable to Join you in person as I have to leave and it's that's another thing I wanted to apologize sooner because I have to go to the parliament for some some Lot of things happening now with all the ukrainian energy crisis. So So apologies for that and thank you again for Inviting me to this to this interesting discussion I have to say it's so interesting for me because actually you mentioned some point from my previous career, but actually I started like ago as Actually developer like Coder like using using primarily open source open source systems and Actually, I definitely could could assess and evaluate how Beneficial it was for for our small technological startup at the time and Also thanks to that the technological startup actually has grown into into big company. It was then that bought actually by big big much bigger company from another country, I will not name but but I Just wanted to say that I was in business many years ago so for us actually different way It's a way how how we can enable enable the Competitiveness of Regions actually Bruno is example of of Such such a region where actually I T and of course with for example that had present there actually open source is definitely One of the dive dive forces of development of IT related innovation environment in Bruno more generally Actually, I think From the level of the government, but we should work. Yeah, because of course to some extent is that we should actually do some evidence raising and support in the area of innovation and Especially in this sense we speak about innovation in the digital digital sphere and primarily on SMEs SMEs and Startups again, but no, it's an example of how we can do that. Well Pencils to the regional and sit with municipal strategies on the national level What we are doing is that we have We have a new smart specialization strategy and This the strategy actually speaks about I don't know if you What it is for actually smart specialization strategy actually says where The country has innovation potential in the companies where where we have Greater search and where are the trends where these three things mean there should be our priority to focus on and Actually in this news part specialization strategy we have a lot of a lot of domains related to to IT to the development of of applications to digital economy generally and And those open source is One of the priorities How does it work this? This smart specialization strategy is not just a strategy that will remain on the table or On our ministry it's really being implemented and actually All the innovation mechanisms that are implemented on the national or regional level should somehow follow this strategy. So so I think in the end it's it's really great support because actually for example All the support in the area of innovation Finance from the cohesion policy is driven by the smart specialization strategy but also many many of the national national emotional schemes so We need to To actually maybe maybe to do more awareness raising but actually the general strategy is there And the awareness raising actually I think Can be done through some mechanisms that we have in place and I think for example Bruno again if you know it's example of of activities that now can be actually Actually They've defined under the heading of so-called digital innovation hubs digital innovation hubs are actually institutes That were actually created under the gt or euro program and should Work as a network of institutions or consortia private regional or Or even research institutions that are focusing on on support of Semis especially a sense of awareness is very special as in digital transformation. So I I see See a lot of potential in this network and in bernard or in cuisine next to Bruno Is an excellent example such such such digital innovation hub And it's the company that is actually The other company of social innovation center and scope in temat and they have a great project. It's called digimath digimath That that supports Semis could be startups in digital transformation. So I think open source Solutions have have a few ways how to how to be actually Distributed and and The ideas of open source can be can be communicated through several Channels including this digital innovation hubs and maybe we should use that these channels more than we Did up to now that might be maybe some of the one of the results of our panel. So that's that's The answer for the first question Very good. Thank you. I think one of my takeaways from that is Open source is great. It's great for economic development in the region. Of course, bruno as you said is a great example of that In check here, but also frankly around the world You mentioned the digital euro program. So I see quite a nice Link bridge over to mrs. Caffee who mentioned it earlier in her keynote Around a couple of projects which are being funded by that one of which is the leos editor and also You went online at the time, but there was also a launch Which again, we we particularly appreciated the launch taking place in in bruno and check here of the eu's code dot europe dot eu So i'd like to ask a mrs. Caffee a sort of follow-on question the theme of investment In terms of you know, the status of of europe's or rather either eu as an institutions embrace of open source And perhaps shedding some more light on those those kinds of recent investments Which you've seen in in the actually already just just six months of your of your arrival Absolutely The microphone Thank you The commission's commitment to open source. I think it's getting stronger and stronger as time goes on And I think We were talking with the coffee break. It is very much an incremental process When you look back and see that it's um, all this work started 20 years ago and we move forward step by step What the commission is trying to do is build its own capacity As regards open source insights the house and cross the most important g's And then also to identify the funding sources that are available from the european funds that can be accessed by and developers Can be accessed for interesting individual projects and then we have to see how can we draw from what is good And share what works well across the whole of europe So I mentioned earlier on the next generation Internet funding so that seems to be very successful in reaching open source projects And it's helping to fund resource developers who are working on the edge of innovation And sometimes some of our european funding sources are not so good at supporting innovation. So I think this is good Maybe some of our big And traditional funding programs like Struck funds have not been so good at that in the past I was able to hear about the recovery and resilience fund challenges this morning And I was really interested because I spent 15 years of my career in In commission working on on regional policy So I it seems to me that it is the more innovative And a smaller kind of initiatives that are the ones that are going to support open source projects to better So, um, yeah, another area we're involved in in digits is bog the planters and hackathons And and these came out by pilot project and proprietary action by the european parliament We heard the faucets project mentioned And this morning as well And But these pilot projects and Helping to challenge the commission for anything because we're not the most innovative organization, but we are finding Ways to support innovation through these kind And projects we're doing like this also with the united nations as well But we need to think about not just about how we find factors, but how We find ways to fund the developers in first place So Co-creation sounds good, but it's not It's not easy. I don't think we should pretend that it's easy, but we we we are trying hard and So we have to work with our peers exchange experiences and learn from our mistakes But then not only that from our mistakes more important than that from our successes and share our successes, but I think there are a quite a number of opportunities and Poor funding poor open source and the commission is certainly committed to making sure that those are exploited. Thanks Great one such example if you look up in the corner There's the european flag. It's the check side and prime center of excellence paid for by one of those funds so More to come So this I appreciate you have a few more minutes with us. I would like to Go back to you if I may And talk a little bit more about what you were Elaborating around competitiveness for this time in the case of of real jobs and of course Front and center at the moment in terms of the challenge with the headwinds that we're all facing The question here is about Check this oppressive Record comes to it talent and that skills Development in in universities like this, but others across the country And a little bit what ambassador that he was saying about the importance of also doing likewise educational at a school level But the question is really about, you know, this this this leadership you see here in bruno And and how you see that sort of evolving Not only in injective, but also given your current presidency beyond in across across europe in terms of of building out more jobs in in open source And and thereby helping further the competitors and one one data point which I think Marcel mentioned was to use Report on open source talks about for every 10% increase in contribution upstream you get a 0.6% gdp points uplift So that's a pretty significant link So I'm really interested here more for me on that. Thank you Yeah, so thanks and uh, yeah, I'm happy to do us as the chick better not ecosystem That's a nice example for all of you. I think it is very so the answer is that There is no No short way to achieve the success and bruno and this host more than the region shows that that you have to be actually very Focused and consequently new steps for many years to achieve this this level of Excellent innovation in ecosystem that actually bruno and then surroundings Actually is now I'm sure about exactly, but I think it was like 2000 or 2001 actually the new innovation strategy in bruno was actually Approved and the important fact was that it was not so much changed by the new political representations Every four or even last year. So so this is this is really important to have a strategy Clear vision and not to not to change history if you change it every few years and I think Uh, it's it's clear success success now and no politicians in this who's one of the region I think would change change the the innovative nature of Of the of the city and the region itself so It's one thing that the second thing is that we need to speak about education and of course Uh Changing the the educational system is not easy Um, I think what what works in bruno, but also in bragg and few other parts of the Republic is is definitely some part of partnerships between between private sector academia and public sector Again taking example from bruno. We can speak about actually newly established, but based on previous cooperation cyber security innovation hub that is actually a partnership of universities public body clusters and Definitely this hub Also helps to to actually Increasing the the importance of of education also in open source Um We need more of these partnerships actually the chief public eye. I I have uh, uh be itself critical The educational system, uh, uh, I think although universities work very well, but uh, the elementary high schools So it's more difficult and uh, if the region is active and and supports the transformation on the level of high schools It works well, but we have a lot of regions where it is not so much and it doesn't It doesn't work. Uh, work In that way as in the first region So we need more more focused national strategy to to actually Actually Produce more it talents and of course Also talents that are aware of the of the benefits of open source. So this is difficult of course the regional or the High school education is not something that is uh, of course, uh, too much harmonized on on the you are also What we can do is to ensure support support increasing Increasing the best practice in change supporting the the partnerships supporting the The network of digital innovation helps that also can work with the schools This is something very very important and because I have to leave I just say a few words that are not so much or not directly to to Do the jobs question but are linked to the presidency of the EU that we have now I just wanted to say more general terms that actually I know that this is not What is uh, what is Really high priority of the chief presidency is it's to push the digital legislative files that are on the table. Uh, that of course can can actually help to to develop new solutions new applications that can help to increase in competitiveness and and improve the likes of the citizens We have AI act. We have the type and Now Also thanks to the French presidency. We have already approved a data governance act and This is this is something that I think we should take care about quick implementation because data governance act brings a lot of A lot of measures how to actually facilitate the reuse of data from public sector and how to How to generate new data intermediaries and of course data the data are blood for any applications Uh for the data economy. So, uh, this this is I also wanted to mention I I know that this is not directly to the point open source But I think speaking about open data is also really important and the data governance As well as data to some extent can really help to to increase the the sharing of data Thank you Great. Um, excuse me. Thank you. I think on that point on skills Everybody in this room everybody online. Um, absolutely stands ready to to help Develop and involve those kinds of partnerships On the presidency front point taken the lot of lot of legislation Which has been adopted myself talked about the dma earlier, but also there's a there's a there's a raft of legislation coming through and a lot of it potentially very positive for for open source Yesterday was the cyber resilience act, which has been launched With an exemption for for open source. So I think again the default open Approaches is is is then it's good good to see and uh more of that to come. I appreciate you You need to to drop now. So I get like to Thank you for your time and your participation and look forward to working with you on behalf of everyone In the the next few months your presidency, but also after that Yeah, thank you very much. It was a pleasure and I have to apologize and uh, I wish you luck to your panel Thank you. Goodbye. Thank you. So, um, I'd like to go turn to Maria if I may talked about in this this whole essence of sharing and reusing and the the importance of helping one another at a country level or the company level civil society level the the I mean, Sweden is is well regarded in in terms of its digital Slash open source credentials. Yes, there's there's more to more to do as as often as the case But it'd be interesting to hear a bit more about What you see and what you saw is as key drivers in Sweden's success and then a little bit sort of forward looking in terms of your own digital agency and and projects which you have On the way. Thank you. Um, first, um, I would like to elaborate a bit on as open as possible and as close as necessary Because we're talking about Open by default and which is a very Important principle My authority Agency for digital government dick We have a policy an open source policy, which is saying everything we procure should be open standards and open source and everything we develop should be licensed with an open source license And this is also Accordingly to the talent declaration 2017 So this is nothing new. This is something we already know But still it's difficult for the public sector to reach to that level And we are working really hard on that And what we see is that it's rather difficult when it comes to procurement and the procurement departments How do they work with open source because you don't have to procure open source It's just to download try out and use So so that that is rather good and Also on the same topic and We have a very old law in sweden It's from 1766 It's a public access to government information So transparency is very important for us But more important is actually the dialogue So what we have which i'm very proud of it's an open forum. It's a community forum On our national data portal Where people can anybody citizens companies Academia anybody can ask questions Where discuss topics about our digital commons the apis and open source And some people would like to start working on a project together And and they do it. I even have the app on my phone So every day a couple of messages is coming in people asking for contributions and we are helping each other out So far we have 60 000 visitors And we have over 2000 topics And this is I think a key success factor that we start communicating we start a talk we try to be as transparent as possible But everything is not to be transparent The other side is as Close as necessary And we too need to work on that And some information and some systems are critical functions of our society Some information is the information about our citizens So even if we would like to use the cloud to scale up and scale down It's sometimes difficult due to GDPR And also due to that it's not suitable So we are collaborating again a couple of authorities So the Swedish Social Security Agency They are hosting The IT operations of some of the Swedish authorities And success story for this is also of course well open source Using an open source infrastructure to make it possible for digital sovereignty And this has been ongoing since 2017 like a trial But now we are Seeing great results So our government has a proposal that my agency will start to look at the next step to make this a more permanent solution So stay tuned Thank you very much. We will stay tuned. I think this is a You know huge opportunity not only for Sweden But also for other member states to to study and emulate in in the open source way And I say when I said Sweden was digitally advanced. I now realize if you started off in 1766. I mean, you know Good. Well, mr. Profile if I may bring you into the the discussion. So we talked a little bit about your your your role within the new digital agency Appreciate again in the aeroplane metaphor getting a bit more detailed about some of the achievements some of your plans and the challenges In terms of accelerating this this this effort. Um, and of course, um, um, it would be interesting to hear, you know How you see the the Swedes as a as an agency as an inspiration, but but others which Are particularly noteworthy. Thank you Thank you So I have to describe the The check organization The government has The government is a new position of vice prime minister for the utilization. It's new in this government that this government is set about Let's more than I'll play here We are in the process of founded the central authority for a government For digital information agency. Yeah Now the government is left Now the government is led by ministry of interior as I speak The digitalization of business is support by minister of trade by mr. Ochoa We have a very robust laws and regulations. For example, we were one of the first state went long about clouds in the public sector Of course, this approach can be worrying. They don't have to take anything in the flexible Our central shared information system like the basics registry that makes change and so good paper but very old and even the hardware is old And it's because the organization Because it's not priority of current ministry of interior and that's one things that we are changing and And bringing a more stable budget in this area and More expertise because one of the problem Why there is No update for example of hardware, which is easy. You just buy hardware It's not some rocket science Is that there are no experts. So A lot of prokur man are bad and criticize and consult and things like that The rest of the government is the centralized every institution is prokur its own software and hardware Only thing is that there are some central enterprise architecture So to the goals our goals are until the end of this year found the digital informant information agency Change the procurement law to be to be to be more flexible We are solving the issue of horizontal cooperation between the state department like if you want if you want Buy something from another ministry You need to do a procurement in check law And that's it's absurd because you are one state one institution In the end of the day. So of course you can do some internal internal things So we are changing the procurement law in this way to be more flexible And the last goal for this year Is our own budget chapter in national national chapter for the next year. So On the national level you will see The budget for this institution. That's That's now not transparent because you see The budget of ministry of interior and the digitalization is so small that there are In some some item like rest It's absurd And our plan for the next year So sit up proper modern working culture in our agency That's important because we need a young talent. We need We need to be flexible and For this we need a proper modern working culture And This is not common in our other public institution to have some good working culture home office sick days and And and think like that The next goal is to set up collaboration between the are and other institution This is crucial We we building central authority And we need collaborate with another institution. So So proper collaboration Is Of course cooperation with the check a new leg found Ospo to promote the open source to And without the agency Ospo The Czech Ospo will be only NGO without your partner in the public sector Next goal is Build our nation club Another goal is stabilize the station about central church so far as I mentioned There are all there are There are It's items for my thing So we need to prepare some project to renew this software and I hope in some modern Modern way in that Yeah We we can use a gile We can use open source and so and the Last but not least prepare preparing to the view wallet from EID There is a lot of things that the member state has to prepare for example the data sources the The wallet itself it will it will be some technical specification not So complex but the data source Can be a little tricky for example in Czech Republic. We have no information about About the students on universities or in as the government The universities are independent and they have students of course we financing them but only The neuroscience only per capita. It's not it's not So It's not good for some recognition of the status of student or To to describe The expertise or something like this And we have to manage to collaborate with our universities for example and another That sources to prepare to do your opinion. So this is our plan Fantastic, thank you. I guess you're not alone in terms of trying to update procurement or I think that's there's there's a lot of will to do that and I think what I see in some some member states there are Infergent Outcomes which aren't expected So for example, you're Luckily an idea from from from thin air if you're selling services Many of the procurement models are engineered for proprietary services And therefore with different viability caps and that really makes things likely to open to us Yeah, it's one of the Biggest the problem in the current IP Of course the procurement law and so the budgeting law Cupbacks or specs It's a big problem in transition to cloud and On this topic, we need a collaboration of minister of finance so It's not so easy because of course, it's a rigid and their their rules are good Without the command and we cannot change them because they are the best So this will be another challenge for us Great. Thank you. You mentioned the your application topics and and And that that makes me think of Someone else on the panel. I will come to the second but also you mentioned around proper and working cultures And this is something which again European commission I think I did do a long time in terms of acting as I kind of spoke in the in the Sorry in the hub in the in the wheel Of member states. So the interesting Miss Kathy if I can hand it to you about The your your now vision going forward around Digits of enabling meaning role when it comes kind of further developing that default open posture. Thanks Thank you very much Yeah, I mean I I mentioned earlier all the various funding sources that there are for open source And I think there never will be a fund focusing on open source by itself So I think but then the open source community is a very agile flexible community So I think they need to be creative in finding their way through the european union funding sources and I think we at digits are happy to help them But what we are going to our next initiative we are going to take is To see how can we bring the community of open source Together and we think we can help to do this through Our interoperability european act Which we hope we will be able to publish our proposal Before the end of the year in time for the check presidency to initiate discussions with them With with council and and parliament And so this is a regulation That has been prepared by the commission in close collaboration With the member states it's it's based on a on a decades long cooperation between member states But the vision is that we have to find a mechanism Where we can pull together The good practices and the learning that have has been generated Among public administrations at local national and european level and we think this will help To Validates give value to the work that is done on open source and will help identify The really good examples and we we mentioned as well the code dot europe dot u this morning That will be a repository for many of these examples but Basically, we see it working Across all member states across cultural both borders and transcending Different sectors So basically we want to create a culture of open cooperation and transparency And and that for us will be the future interoperability policy for europe And it's quite interesting in the discussions we've had within the commission Some people across the commission. I said, oh, what are you doing? What are you trying to do and All the other and we will propose a regulation, but we are not We are not making it a requirement for every member state to participate Member states will participate at the level they wish to and to the extent they want to but it's member states asked us for regulation So It's just it's just interesting how some people in the more traditional parts of the commission found it hard to Understand how we want to go about this and I suppose in the end as everything in this area It's been an incremental process over 20 years, so We'll make a proposal We will have discussion with member states with part And then of course we'll have to implement it and it's only as we implemented that we will really see what needs to be improved How we can work better. So that's that's our ambitious ambition. Thank you Super. Thank you very much Just listening to you talk about culture of collaboration in one of the resources, which I use very often is the commission's open source cemetery and back in sweden if i'm saying Drive a similar Repository or similar Collaboration platform Because no sad is not Not happy with no sad dot at For example, uh, the next I'm just looking at the website. Actually the next session dealing on business models open source business models We remember bringing in all sorts of different players to talk this through So I think that more of that is needed both new level member state level To kind of clarify and And illustrate What the what the state of the art is Actually on that front conscious radical time. So so i'm fat Maria. I'm gonna ask you to sort of find a question then I'll leave The developer analyst to to provide a closing statement So if you'd like to elaborate more on them on on this ad and most types of collaborative tools But also of course we mentioned before The difference so especially the check licensing, of course, it's sweden's term next if zenith you want to share with us In advance, that would be great. Uh, in particular that sort of focus and potential option. I appreciate recent election dot dot dot, but It open source. It's a enablement. I assume would continue with as a as a theme And it's to be seen how how much of a priority status that receives. So Maria Yes, thank you And yes, we've of course continued with open source and the great work that we are achieving now and here And it's been here for two days and taking Being part of all interesting discussing the discussions seeing all great Opportunities that are out there And I have a colleague of mine. He always say The first day of starting to share is actually today And I think that this is something we should do So the first thing I would do is to share my contacts with you So we can start collaborating on for instance cyber security because that is something very important And another thing I would do is I will try to summarize this event. I will put on the swedish Community forum, so everyone else can also take part of what we have been discussing today So these are the two things that I would like to do And then I would like I know it's not so much time, but that is try to say one more thing We have a saying in a swedish Chef in the Guinness and the second and since you know some swedish, maybe we would like to translate Okay, and that's do not buy the pig in the sack And before I was talking about a law from 1766, but this this goes back to the medibles Before we knew that when we are doing procurement We need to check what we actually are buying And I think that is something we can work more on Cross-border, so I would like to do more cross-border coding So let's put out our code. Let's package it in a way that we can actually collaborate cross-border Sweden check public That is what I would like to do Yeah, I I'm very happy that we can collaborate and we will Do and this is the open cities Of course, because I think we have a lot of And in we challenge the same problem in the organizational state and in the mitigation of So so I think I think that's that's I forgot three minutes on the clock. Yeah, thank you So I think that's that's a fairly Open I think challenge invitation perhaps that We explore how to take this event Step it up into the next presidency and of course in the meantime, there'll be a huge amount of collaboration and through the use Ospo and other another another forum. So I think that's a really exciting opportunity for us all to continue to scale this conversation. So We're three minutes to go. I'm just going to hand back microphone in that direction just to have as a final statement So we close out. Thank you Keep collaborating keep having this dialogue. I think that's the most important thing Oh, I have no words But I think the important thing is a strong community and to continue the dialogue between all the stakeholders Thank you I think it should be clear from what I've said already today that commission Recognizes the globe strategic and practical value of free and open source We're committed to advance on establishing a working culture based on the principles of open source and we look forward to the increased pace of work with our peers and the member states With the open IT service providers and with open source software developers because I think we've got Huge potential that we can eliminate if we get this right. Thanks