 concluding discussions on the project logistics. So, anybody has worked out some additional figures or whatever? Yesterday we had come up with some figure, 43,000 or something. I do not remember that. There is somebody who pointed out that in I think Surat or somewhere where there are two coordinators and they are paid 6,000 rupees. Surat person is here. That is correct figure, no? So, when we multiplied by 3,000 by 2, that was adequate or is it 6,000 to each coordinator? To each coordinator? Oh my God. So, what you are saying is I have to add 6,000 rupees more here. So, we will call it Surat solution. Surat kal, Surat kal. For coordinator is 6,000 rupees and for a teaching staff, those who are going to help in lab, 300 rupees per day and the session is 3 hour session, not 1 and half hour. 300 per day per session you mean then? 3 hour session. So, per day you can say. And how many teachers? I have taken 10. No, no, 10 sessions. Number of teachers can be decided. Decided is up to them only. So, it is up to them. I have taken 10. So, this you are saying this is 3,000. And technical staff? Yes. 100 rupees per day and they are going to help in the sense of your lab and technical support whatever is. So, this is for 10 days. And how many technical staff? I am taking 2. And for that e-learning operator they need one guy to operate and all those things. So, for that I decided 100 rupees per day and one person only for this job. Just one form of correct it sir. The teaching staff I have taken 10 guys for teaching staff. 10. 10 guys for 10 days. So, it comes around 30,000. 10 guys for 10 days. So, 10 guys for each of the 10 days. 10 guys for each day. No, if it is one per day it is 300 into 10. 10 guys for 10 days. Wow. So, there could be more teachers than the participants. Sir, it depends upon the number of participants registered for the course. Suppose it is more then we cannot predict how many people we require for teaching and support. This figure is for the 60 candidates. Okay. So, will it be correct to assume that for 30 candidates 5 teachers will do? Oh yeah. So, either 5 or 10. 5 or 10. So, this could be either 30,000 or 50. 60 will become 2 coordinators. So, you are saying 6,000 per coordinator. So, then this should be 12,000 then. Oh yeah. And then otherwise it should be 6,000. Otherwise it is 6,000. That is what you are saying. Okay. So, I will say class of 60 and class of 30. Right? That is how these figures will be. So, class of 30, your solution is much less in terms of honorarium. It is 15 plus 6, 21, 23, 24,000. Okay. And class of 60, it will be… If the coordinator is there then it will be… 42, 44, 45,000. 45. And if one is… Sorry. Yeah. If one coordinator is there then on the time it is around 41,000 only. No, no. That is okay. I like the idea of two coordinators. Yes. Although whether the number only is the disaster factor but that is a different story. I will tell you what will happen. Most of the people may have two distinct labs physically. The lecture may be a single hall of 60 people because it is on a reset base but labs may be physically two labs. And naturally we would expect coordinator of two actually look at those 30 people, one set and 30 people on other set. So, this makes sense to me. Okay. So, effectively we are saying is that by the way let me ask you a harder question. If teaching staff is being paid 300 rupees per three hour session, the e-learning operator 100 rupees per day may be okay. But the technical staff, there would be different cadres of technical staff. Now for example, we have here, Dr. Mukta Atre of course is an administrative manager but there are technical managers like Dr. Subhadra, Dr. Vijay Lakshmi. Now Dr. Subhadra is a senior sysadman. He is almost like an associate professor level person. No, for senior sysadman we are going to keep in a teaching staff only. This tech staff I am just supporting. So, nomenclature would it not be better if we say teaching stroke senior technical staff. Yes, sir. Something like that. Then they will be part of this. Okay. Because you may not find 10 teachers to actually who know programming to that extent in some colleges. That's why that's all over the senior. Fair enough. So, is this agreeable that this then represents the realistic figures? Yeah. Sir, based on yesterday's discussion where we had something like 500 per session for a teaching staff and 250 per session for a technical staff. Yes. What in my opinion is generally the difference is just 50 percentage. Whatever teaching staff has been assigned 50 percentage has been allotted for a technical staff. This is roughly in my opinion works out in all places. So, that is better. So, it is better to put this as 150 and 150 rather than. No, more than that. That is per session and this is per day. So, here it there is a big difference. Okay. What we worked out yesterday was both were per session based. I mean, we can quickly discuss it and finalize. Okay, fine. So, what you are saying is that there is no harm if to the technical staff we pay as much as 300 rupees, for example, which is per a day. Per day. All right. Exactly. And similarly for this person also we pay 300 rupees. Yeah. Per day. Okay. Because you see the end of the day, it is the e-learning operator who is going to decide the quality of my reception. The whole edifice is built on that. Our course will collapse. And there is no harm in saying that we value you as well. It is not really a large chunk of money. So, I would tend to agree with his observation. In which case these numbers will simply become, this will become 3000 and this will become 6000. And if I add these two differences, this is 4000 difference, this is 2000 difference. So, I have six here and I have six here. So, this becomes 30,000 and this becomes 51,000. Am I right? Roughly that is the calculation. Yes. Okay, fine. We will take this as acceptable by everywhere. Okay. Now, we have to work out the other costs. The other costs are stay, food and transport. I mean travel. Now, one of the important hallmark of my scheme suggested to MHRD is that today if IIT Guwahati arranges a QIP or IST program, then maximum money is spent by the government in travel. And very little money is spent in coordination and actual activity. Here the idea is that the travel expenditure should be either zero or minimum. So, consequently anybody trying to register cross-country, that is Bombay people wanting to register in Bangalore and Coimbatore person wanting to go to Pune. Okay. Now, these are fancy flights of imagination, but we must immediately say that that is not possible. The best way to say is I have tried the following thing, just consider this. I just want to clarify one thing. How the registration process is going to happen? It is going to happen online. So, suppose a person registered because we have multiple campuses. Suppose a person from nearby place near Hamidthapuri registered in Coimbatore campus or Bangalore campus. So, how is it filtered? The solution is simple. The solution is not saying that you can't do it or police it. The solution is to say not more than 1000 rupees be paid for travel expenses both ways. Can we restrict it that way the nearest place from their college? From where they are working. No. There is still a larger implication. Please remember that even after this second workshop, we still do not have presence from large stacks of the country. What if somebody wants to come from Patna? The nearest center probably is Nagpur. Okay. If 20 teachers from Patna want to pile up on Kanpur, or Kanpur will go bankrupt with this kind of things. Nagpur, I mean. Nagpur se koi hai there? So, whatever. What I am saying is why not we say that we shall restrict the travel reimbursement up to a maximum this amount per candidate. That is we want to spend all our money in actually teaching learning process making sure that the teachers and learners are well taken care of during the course. Now this suggestion IST found to be okay, MHRD also found to be okay. In practice will it work out. My guess is that if we put this restriction automatically people will register for the nearby center because somebody will have to pay for their travel. Either their college will have to pay or they will have to pay. And both are likely to be reluctant in spending money from their pockets. So, how much is realistic? I was saying something like 1000 or 2000 per participant because please remember that per participant expands. So, let's take a case of 30 participants. Okay. And work out per participant costs. First of all I want an approximate estimate of food and stay per day per participant. We are talking about per participant cost estimates. We are estimated that the food will cost anywhere between 100 to 250 rupees depending upon the place where the costs are widely different at different places. Okay. Similarly, stay if you have a guest house or hostel or something then the accommodation will be less. If you have to accommodate people in hostel your budget will, you can't sustain it. Now, here is the point I was trying to make. The bigger cities where ordinarily there is a problem for accommodation but there is also an advantage that there are many engineering colleges in those bigger cities themselves. So, they don't have to stay. Smaller places can perhaps afford a relatively cheaper accommodation in food because they would have hostels or something like that. That is the assumption. Now, you know your own colleges. What kind of facilities are possible and what kind of state charges will be levied. For example, in our staff hostel, not the guest house kind of accommodation, staff hostel kind of accommodation is about 50 rupees per day. So, I don't know how it is in your places. We are having guest hostels that charge 100 rupees a day. Okay. 100 rupees per day. Can I have a suggestion? Yeah, please. Now, for working out this shall we decide like for 30 participant for stay purpose can we calculate in 215 so that the balance will be there instead of not blindly multiplying it by 30. No, I am calculating per participant only. Okay. So, we can calculate for any number of people whether it is 35, 28. I will tell you the reason. The other cost I can imagine to be fixed for 30 and 60. So, if there is a small variation instead of 30 suppose 34 people come you can still count it as 30. If 28 people come or 25 people come still you will require that paraphernalia. You can't reduce that number. But the per participant cost can be calculated actually per participant. So, there is a merit in calculating this per participant. For a gross level estimation we can decide to multiply it by 50, no 30 or whatever. Okay. So, is it okay if we take 100 rupees per day stay 350 per day? Yeah, per day sir. But is it single occupancy or double occupancy? Double occupancy. So, then it is 125. 175. So, you are saying this could range up to 175 also. Yeah. That's the cost. Okay. We may even say that people wanting to attend that Surat Kal will have to pay from their pocket. No, that will not be good. And that's the problem is that unlike there are many engineering colleges in that vicinity but none within let's say half an hour or 45 minutes or there are one hour I think. Nitte was... Half an hour, yes. So, people can still commute every day to the workshop and go back. Half of the person, actually the thing is then whenever Nitte is going to put anything to the IST workshop and all, we have a huge response. That's where we are going. So, first of all my request is to you, first you set the criteria. Mentioning the person from Bangalore and whatever they must register with Bangalore Centre only. Of course. Otherwise it's... No, no, by the way we have full freedom to reject any registration. What we'll do is we'll open a professional registration. We will have on the wiki, we'll create a wiki along with that website. The wiki will be accessible to all of you. And we will never ever finalize a person for a centre unless the centre coordinator says okay. Ultimately you are going to be responsible for their well-being or for paying them or whatever. Then it's fine sir. Yeah, absolutely. Then try to target our nearby colleges. In fact that was the whole idea in this distributed concept. Otherwise there is no point. We have been conducting your IPIST workshop for ages. So have you been, many of you. The point here is that a single coordinator workshop, I want 200 centres in the country in the next one and a half years. Because from 200 centres, people literally can travel on a scooter or rickshaw or something like that and go there every morning. But doesn't matter. For the time being we'll assume that. So what is the first case and the best case this thing? If I take these two extreme, the per participant cost is either 200 rupees or 425 rupees. That's a lot of cost. I am thankful for the suggestion that instead of 15 days we do it only for 10 days. But even when you say 10 days people will come the previous evening and people will go the next day morning. And this is 11 days figure. So 11 days you have to calculate anyway. It still means that it is 2200 per participant or is that correct? Something like this. Now you will understand why I am saying I restrict the travel expense. Rather than paying 3000 rupees to a person for travel I would give him better food by spending that money here. I would give him as referred by madam and some of the participants it is better to calculate for 12 days. So something like half day or this side or that side. No, no. I have added this here on the higher side. The problem is that the bureaucracy in Delhi does not recognize differences in location differences in cost. We have a Kahavat in Hindi which is called sab gode bara takke. So whatever it doesn't matter there is no distinction. So like that Bombay is supposed to be as cheap as Jharsuguda. We can't help it. So Jharsuguda people might be staying in a nice place and eating well. In Bombay for the same money you can either eat well and sleep on the footpath or stay in the guest house and attend workshop hungry. These are the two choices you have. Both are very bad choices. So the worst case we can tell them that not only the corporation will be given please bring your tiffin when you come to the workshop. We will have a joint. Whatever. Now the IST and MHRD is going to ask me to average this out. It will not permit us to distinguish between different centers. Or should we say just like they have this what you call city compensatory allowance. Any one of you have it? This is a government mechanism. So they divide the cities in class A, class B, class C. Now just as city compensatory allowance is different or the daily allowance is different at these three places. Should we be willing to say that there will be three categories or two categories depending upon the place? Now Amravati friend may not be very happy because his cost may not be significantly lower but he ends up getting less money for doing the same Godagiri. Please observe that we are talking only about the actual cost. As far as the honorarium and all concern there is no city based distinction. So is that reasonable to say that we will have these classes? Now quickly if you take a roll call here what are the categories of the city how many of you can say do it something in this cost? How many of you will require this? And how many of you can do something in between let's say 3,500? Just I am tentatively asking. Based on your own past experience of organizing B. So one, sorry? C. Suratkal if you go by the government of India classification is probably class C. Excuse me sir. So B means here. Excuse me sir. Here the food includes lunch and dinner both or one time food. If they are staying there then depends. I mean I don't know it see it's all up to us to frame the rules. The point is that when they stay there then I think 100 rupees is not enough for both the times. Correct. Breakfast also includes. So breakfast, lunch, dinner will be not 100 rupees how much it will be? Maybe 250. Yeah whatever. Maybe 250. So 250 is the correct this thing. But the stay may be different. So you are saying that this figure is all wrong. Yes. Now if we make this as let's say 250 then 150 rupees increase here. 150 into 11 days this figure is perhaps closer to that. So can we say that we are talking only about either this or this? Yes. Okay. Let us multiply this by number of students, sorry number of participants and find out what happens. I will take a round figure of 5000 rupees instead of 5100 that we had elaborately calculated. And if I have 30 participants this works out to 150,000 for 30 participants. Now we had worked out the total cost for 30 students as 30,000 rupees. So for 30 participants 180,000 is the cost of stay, food and other things. If I have to add to it a maximum amount of travel that I will reimburse which is the condition that we will put. That this is the maximum amount of travel. We are not saying you cannot come from any place. You come from whatever place preferably from a nearby place but the course will not be able to compensate you for more than this much amount for travel. Now if people are travelling within about 100 kilometers of your place or say 50 to 100 kilometers what will be the travel cost typically? No, if they are daily travels and you save on food and stay then you can give him a rented car every day. Ultimately you have to balance the financial thing there but assuming that they come and stay with you and they are within 100 kilometers, 100 kilometer travel by either bus, train, whatever the entitlement maximum 200. What I was suggesting is, suppose I say max limit on travel reimbursement. We can't use rupees 1000 both ways. Now this 1000 you can use it for local travel for tenders or this 1000 you can use it for coming and staying with us. If we do that and multiply with this by 30 we actually can run this course in 210,000 rupees. What about the institutional overhead? Small addition is, with respect to that list of members that is a small addition, one attendee we were talking yesterday and a miscellaneous expenses like many things like materials and as you pointed out the institution resource usage. So any suggestion on the miscellaneous expenses? Because these will be gross amounts, right? Institute charges typically like government of Maharashtra pays for MSI exams and others. It is like 25 rupees into number of students into number of days. 25 into 30 into 10. That is the institute facility utilization charges. 7500. That is your Maharashtra government. Suppose we say 10,000 rupees lump sum. Will that be okay? This goes directly to the institute for whatever purposes the director wants to use it. Diesel charges for generators like different colleges in Maharashtra typically for load shedding. The generator is going to be a major thing. I have to get a clearance from Delhi on that. I had talked to somebody and he suggested that you put it under consumable budget. But what he finally said is you can spend from consumable budget but you have to manage the total thing in the budget that we have given. So it is like I have to basically take out his shirt and give it to you to burn diesel. There is no other choice I have. The total budget will be fixed. I am trying to negotiate that total budget. That is why I want it. Suppose we put this as 10,000. Just rough estimate on miscellaneous expenditure. Something like per participant we can fix an amount, multiply it by that. 100 into 30. No, this will be one time. It is not per day. No, it is easy. No, it is not a daily miscellaneous. This is like you give them handouts. Xerox and give them handouts or whatever. So something like 100 rupees per participant. So 30 into 100 is let's say 3,000 rupees. But I would like to break this miscellaneous expenditure into two kinds. One is actually whatever you may say, material like Xerox or certificates or whatever. So I would like to put that as say 5,000. I would like to put that additional 5,000 as contingency available to the coordinator. Suppose you have to hire somebody, run there and do something. Now you should be financially independent. What happens otherwise is that and if you are able to compensate somebody, people will be able to work. So if they know you are a Fokanda man, then they will not much care for you. That's a fact of life. You should have a financial stature. Say I will compensate you. Now if we add all of these 10,000, 10,000, 10,000, this becomes 230,000. What IST is telling me is that they will no way agree for more than 185,000 or something. I have been questioning their figure. Actually I have been fighting to get 250,000. What the government has approved me is 2 lakh rupees. So the Maramari is going on this. This is the IST figure. This is what I have demanded. This is DB Fatak's figure. And this is MHRD's current figure. Now if you look at this figure, it is 30,000 rupees less. I would rather reduce this maximum limit on travel expenditure which made 30,000 to 15,000 but not reduce these. Because the contingency in the hands of coordinator is according to be the most important component. Whether coordinator feels very comfortable doing small things. Yes, any suggestion in this? Sir, although I don't have experience about this finance but I feel institute charges of 10,000 considering like 10,000, 3, 4 labs will run for 10 days with AC and power consumption and all these things. I don't know whether maybe the people who have hosted will... In my institute, I have been slogging for this for two and a half years. You saw the staff. All of them are being paid salary from the MHRD funds. The institute overhead being paid is 0 rupees. This is a national mission. And if any institution in the country has received direct or indirect support from MHRD actually this will be question crossed. That's a fact of life. I mean ministry along with the CVC and the auditors etc. will descend on your campus, ask you to return whatever loans you got from government. Now the fact of life is that there are many private institutions who have to spend some money. What I would like to suggest is that... And I will write this later to the heads of the institutions to give me your thing. Saying that please consider this to be a national mission. As a part of the... This is called national mission. And the purpose is to train teachers better so that the students get trained better. So all of us in our postgraduate courses we get better students. But overheads of any IIT Bombay gets 0 rupees overheads. 0. And as an added attraction it continues to pay my salary. So that's... But of course the college is like Surat Kalanol for example. I mean I am not sure what exactly will answer to ministry when we show 10,000 rupees as overhead. Yes. I am saying that I would like to include it because I will not put it as institute charges. I will say charges for institute facilities used. Something like that. Facilities. Whatever. But I would think that just like my coordinator should have a 5,000 rupees of contingency. The director of the institute should also have 10,000 rupees to spend some... You see when you conduct this course there will be several people who will say wonderful work you are doing. There will be several others saying that the institute is doing this. To tell them the director should be able to say look he is also earning a little money for the institute. So this is token. I think we should take it like that. Is that okay? Even if you don't pay the institute charges it's okay but the diesel charges are important. Institutes won't be ready to run the facilities by generator sets because that's a big amount typically in our case. You should collect that money from the energy minister of Maharashtra state. But I will tell you what you have to do in that case. What I propose also I will tell you. I will fight for 230,000 rupees. I will fight for 230,000 rupees. And I will fight hard and I can assure you wherever I fought hard in life I have not lost. So I should be able to get this. If I get this for 30 people then I think we should be okay. Now within this 230,000 if you can cut the cost here and there and arrange for it I think that should be fine. So in your case for example all of these 10,000 all of your contingency and you can give only lunch and not dinner so you will get some money. You can ask the participants do they want light in the class or they want food in the stomach. You have one of the two choices. The budget one thing we yesterday evening we were discussing we were talking about the enthusiasm from different teachers with respect to as soon as they see the browser. My feel or some of our feel is can we add something like OS technology or open source something that kind of term in the title of our workshop which will enhance the interest towards the workshop. You still believe that just by writing programming people may not be interested. Will it be appropriate to add that term? I have absolutely no problem. I would say using state of art technologies and open source or something of that. Well since we are creative I would suggest all of you over the next 4-5 days in your travel back in your flight car taxi whatever please keep thinking about it and please keep sending emails back. Regarding the infrastructure they are using in the lab please make sure each machine is installed in some Linux distribution. It is not using PuTTY or any hyper terminal. Please make sure to install that. That is the whole point of exposing you to these installations. In our institution we will take care. That is why these installations can be dual boot so you don't disturb any if you have a microsoft setup many colleges may have a microsoft setup but you will have to dedicate one server which is an NFS mount server that server will have to have large space that can also be dual mount but for the lab you have to run it like a Linux server and when you say the lab for the entire workshop because people staying there will be accessing it at any point in time and the idea is to encourage people to access it in the night or in the evenings or whatever so that server has to be more or less full time working and the machines you can at best have dual boots but all our environment for example when the CS 101 course starts 4 CIS admins which are MTech students will go and install Linux on all 100 machines so they will ask the teacher what environment do you want we have never been able to do it so well as we are doing it for the course by the way we are making DVDs which will directly can be used they contain all the resources today our CS admins have to find out this resource from here this resource from there this resource from there so that will have to be done there is no shortcut for that now that is the second thing I wanted to tell you is that lab environment will decide how many people can you actually have now here is my suggestion if I can make 45 people or 40 people instead of 30 or say even 60 people then the cost is less than 2 times this that has been added sir we added this 30,000 rupees only that 30,000 is not going to make a difference now this 30,000 will become 51,000 for 60 people and this number will also increase okay anyway whatever I think I will fight for 230,000 but the idea is that I would like to have a flexibility from MHRD saying that depending upon the number of registrations we would like to give varied grant not a fixed grant as IST does so there what we will do is we will compute miscellaneous expenses institute charges and this amount has fixed depending upon the slab and the variable whatever we have calculated we will calculate on a per participant basis rounded up to the nearest integer or some such thing means we can't do multiple computations secondly the modus operandi since money will not come from IST or MHRD money will come from IIT Bombay because MHRD is giving us the money we had told them that we do not want any bureaucracy delay of payment and so on and we would be able to pay you in advance now whether we should pay you the entire amount in advance after which you may have to return some money if the participants are less or we should pay you an estimated total amount we make 50% we pay immediately and 50% by the when the registrations are over when the last date of registration is over the remaining 50% or whatever we calculate we send them out is that alright? so 50% of the money we can send as early as within the next month for example only thing is don't spend it before the workshop starts no because the financial freedom that we enjoy as project investors is total I have for example the same authority financial authority as the head of the department has as far as spending money from the project is concerned I don't think that is situation is same everywhere there would be governance structure so I am not worried about the money getting spend in fact you will have problems in spending that money quickly getting so many approvals is it okay to insist on some utilization certificate back from you? just as we have to give a utilization certificate we should get a utilization certificate saying that capital expenditure for this was this this this this or this money was utilized I want to make this simple because we calculate you know that per person basis so 37 rupees 50 per say you have to return me that transaction will cost 500 rupees it's not worth it besides why should I be wanting that money back I have convinced the government to give me let's say 230,000 I don't need it here so I might as well give it I will need utilization properly can I assume that internally all expenditure that you do is properly audited and so on? it is so that's okay so we will not insist on audited accounts I have to yet clarify this you must get audited account from everybody now audited account from everybody will be a mess for us from 30 people audited accounts and then plus minus this that we don't know how to handle it what is the normal practice for IST when IST gives you money does it ever ask for detailed account? yes sir they ask for accounts is it? yes that is why you were shouting at me I see sir actually based on that workshop whichever we conduct be it 5 day or 10 days a separate bank account is normally opened money is put there so that it becomes something like legal or open to everyone and what do you do? then we submit a full detailed something like that detail but what happens to the remaining balance money? balance money generally it is returned it is returned but if it is funded he doesn't believe in returning money no I would also agree that every institution sees that the account comes to the generally the institution will ensure that before sending the account all money is spent like a dinner party for all the teachers so that is okay sir coming back to the brochure and all what you are talking about that one I am having a little bit problem there as I have discussed with the Mumbai University syllabus it is more focused on C++ and when we are telling that it is computer programming we are not saying that we are saying effective teaching learning of computer programming now computer programming is also Java programming is also SQL programming so nowhere it will be mentioned that what language it is we will have to mention it but the details will be on the website when we describe the detailed program that detailed program we will describe only after the registration date closes after the registration date closes we might also extend it further in case some centers do not have sufficient registrations or whatever okay you see the point is my ambition is to run this pilot for thousand teachers and that is the reason why I am suggesting that some of you who care who have large institutions and large infrastructure if you can enthuse some other colleague to also add to yourself as a coordinator and have enough paraphernalia to run for 60 people absolutely no issue with more than a year I had originally thought that there would be one teacher for programming per college and I had thought totally there are 3000 teachers in the country I was grossly wrong the number is 10 times more 15 times more so we need to do this anyway and I will tell you something if we can do it for 1000 teachers and if that workshop succeeds the government is going to open the tab for additional 10-15 courses so next time when we do the subsequent course which is C++ object for your benefit we will say object oriented programming in the title so you will not try your thing can we invite the polytechnic lecturers those are teaching the diploma institutes because even the diploma and computer and IT as I said in an ordinary college if there is a BST IT or BST computer science and if somebody is teaching programming there I don't see how it is different to teach programming there and programming here because after trial standard some people are coming here some people are going there some people are going to diploma I don't see any significant difference in their intellectual capability the difference is only the measurement capability the numbers marks are different as long as the word science is there science or technology or management these three names are personally you see I will tell you this suppose there is a teacher who actually is teaching programming part time in some college but he is a school teacher why should he be denied this opportunity to learn what we want to involve is teachers any variety of teachers who are interested in effective teaching learning or computer programming but this is my personal opinion it is not weighted administratively by the management but then I always hold funny opinions which nobody likes I will put it this way please suggest the wordings to classify people who are eligible we are going to insist that whatever are the wordings if they are satisfied because that is what legally we are required to however if you have any additional suggestions what we will do is in exceptional cases we need a confirmation from the coordinators of the centre that they have verified the antecedents and this is ok this is good enough for us sir one point that institutional participant means the faculty who are teaching in the same institute we have some that limitation for that means number of participant in that so that we can give more chance to other participant they are coming from other college I will tell you your problem is solved your problem is solved like this if you are going to have 10 teachers participating in conducting the course then they cannot also be attending I mean you either teach or in IIT Bombay to guide a PhD student you don't have to have a PhD the rule is you should not yourself be registered for a PhD I think that should be adequate but personally I will not agree entirely with you why should I say after all my colleagues if they think that they can benefit they should also be encouraged the discretion should be left to the centre court in principle I agree with him that maximum chance should be given to you see we should always remember that we represent some of the better institutions in the country and it is our job to go out and serve the other people so to the extent that we are able to do that you can by the way you can do one thing you can permit additional people what we call sit through they will not get certificate but they can sit through the course and as a matter of fact if there are your own faculty members who eat at their homes who don't stay in your facility and who use a computer which they will ordinarily do what is the expense you have for them as long as the expense is 0 you say these are 60 people who are costed as per this there are 10 additional people from my college who are attending this no issue okay sir the government is worried about money spending government is in fact interested if all teachers like that only attend they will not be counted towards this the local staff will not be counted towards the numbers according to which this budget is computed yes very much so you can issue them sir this is a good point that you have made thanks for bringing this out what we will do is we will definitely say that we will say this to you only they need not know so if they want to register they should understand that they will not be paid T.A.D.A they will not be entitled for any accommodation that others are so if as it is they are staying outside and traveling every day to the college they should continue to do so they must not cost anything to the project but they will have the privilege of attending and getting a certificate sir in registration we put another field that you are in the same college or not so that will be very better clear to the also and the coordinator also she can make suggestions for brochure suggestions for what clauses we should try and include and any other suggestions for costing variations that you can think of but I think we can conclude here that 2,30,000 seems to be okay for conducting this workshop for 30 people and we will say if there are 60 people the cost will be 4,60,000 but there are to be 60 plus that is the point if there are less then that doubling the amount will have a problem so 30 people 2,30,000 Hariaran is going to shout at me because his figure for 1,85,000 is for 35 participants no no what I finally told him you know I said you are not paying me the money so why you bother see if I go to IST then I have to follow his rules he is not paying me I will pay more money I will pay more money I am I mean he is a nice guy but he has to follow I have requested him to revisit all those figures he said sir we have very recently worked them up again so I said very recently this man about 4 years ago before that when did you do the last review 10 years ago this is the notion of recent that time is eternal in India