 You can now follow me and all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I'm going to offend a lot of English football hooligans here but I think Eastern European hooliganism is real football hooliganism. Getting smashed with a big fat belly and doing 15 lines and like glass in some 18 year olds which we've seen with like a lot of old-school football hooliganism in England. When I was in prison at one point with like ISIS guys, like actual ISIS guys from Chechnya that were like getting deported the same way we were and you know, we ate lunch next to them. I mean they're my enemy, I'm their enemy, they hate me. In fact they wanted to like kill us, started kind of shutting down their own areas and the police moved in, started shooting kids, you know like actually shooting kids. Many unarmed as well, like there's evidence, like video footage of them just shooting unarmed kids and as we're going in, there's a guy just getting wheeled out on a stretch just covered in blood, dying, like coughing up. I was like, oh no, we're going to get killed. Some of the guards as well, like I said, like if I see you in the field, I'll kill you. You know what I mean? Essentially they believe in human sacrifice. It was started here in Britain and people, you know, they've influenced several, there's been several order of nine angle killings across the world now especially in the last five years. There was two human sacrifices in Russia last year. They actually caught the people for it. Boom we're on. And today's guest, we've got Jake Hannerhan. Hannerhan. Good man, Irish name then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Grandad's name is from Limerick. So journalist, documentary maker, I think your stuff's great man. You've travelled all around the world. War zones, Ukraine, Turkey, Iran, Iraq. So many of you have been in prison in Turkey. People don't realise the extent to what goes into journalism. People just think it's a piece of piss. But man, let yourself put yourself in a war zone, probably getting paid buttons, risking his life for probably something that you love or else you wouldn't fucking do it. Do you know what I mean? So first and foremost, thanks for coming on. Yeah, cheers mate. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. How's life anyway? Yeah, it's alright. I can't complain, you know what I mean? I'm definitely feeling like the government. My energy bills just went up from like 70 quid to over 200 overnight without change. So yeah, that's stressful. But yeah, things are good. Good mate. I can't complain. Before we get into everything, I always go back to the start of my guess, get a bit of understanding about you, where you grew up, how it all began. Yeah, so I'm from East Midlands, the North Ants. If you know where Northampton is, you know where it is. Very just basic normal background, you know what I mean? I always say because so many journalists went to private school and they were very rich. Definitely weren't me. You know what I mean? We weren't like that. You know, I grew up very normal means. And then, I mean, you know, I did school, but I didn't really, it was a very bad school. The whole town, like the whole area was very like, it's a shit hole to be honest with you. You know, I love it. I love where I'm from. It's like, it's our shit hole, but it's a shit hole. You know what I mean? Anyone from the area that goes, where are you from? They're like, oh, shit hole. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it is. But it was a good place, I think. It's a good, it's in a good part of the country. It's an hour from London. You know, it's like two hours from the north. It's a weird mix, a very weird different culture, you know, which I think was really good to kind of grow up around. Very rough, very kind of cruel at times, you know, kind of lifestyle and, you know, way people lived there. But it was a good start, I think, in a way. So yeah, so I grew up there. Didn't really do very well at school. Left at 16. And I mean, I just went straight into like working, doing like labouring because I had no qualifications. I still have no qualifications on paper. But yeah, so I went into doing stuff like that. I worked at like a Muay Thai Boxing Gym, which was basically like kind of saved my life, I think. You know what I mean? Like I wasn't a bad kid really, but I was just like, just, you know, up to no good thinking you're like the big man, you know what I mean? And clearly wasn't, you know what I mean? And then started going to the Thai Boxing Gym and was like, oh, like I'm a little guy, you know, I'm nobody. These are like real people. And you know, that really taught me like, I don't know, respect and discipline. And you end up around like all different people, you know what I mean? Like every different walk of life. Like it was a very explicitly like, you know, respect was very much a big thing at our gym, you know, no racists, none of that nonsense, but like very tough, serious people, you know what I mean? So we really liked that. That was always a good scene for me. Just worked there. And then yeah, labouring, warehouse, like worked in a suit shop, worked in a like, you know, telemarketing, like every job you can think of. But the whole time I was reading, reading, reading because my granddad was just like, look, you're good at, you know, I was always good at English, writing and stuff like that. And I was reading the whole time. That's one thing my granddad said, like, you know, he, I mean, he basically like brought me up to be honest, him and my grandma, to be honest in many ways, I feel. And, you know, he always said like, no matter what you're doing, even if you're, you know, you've dropped out of school, you've messed up college, I left college, I did this. He said, at least just keep reading, you know, always keep reading, keep writing, doing what you're doing. So I did that. And it got to a point where I was like, I was like, you know what, like maybe I want to be a reporter. Like, I want to be a journalist. I'm reading these books by a journalist. I'm like, I want to do this. I think I can, which was like, I thought that's so cocky of me to think at the time. I thought, no, why not? So I just started like learning things, like just for the internet really, like making contact with other kind of young reporters as well that I saw coming up through like Twitter and stuff like that. And there was a lad from my area, JP. He runs Complex Magno in the UK, absolute legend. Like he happened to be from my area and he'd already done the thing, gone out and he was like a music reporter. And he kind of hit me up and he was like, oh, I've seen you. Like, like I know you, like, I see what you're doing. You're trying to do things. You're like, I can help. So he really helped me out. And then before I knew it, like, I guess, you know, I was like, I was decent enough at writing for people to be like, oh, who's this lad? You know what I mean? So then that got out there. I got a big piece in the Guardian when I was quite, quite young. I was like 22, something like that. And from there, people started noticing me. And yeah, I mean, I could go on forever, but ultimately I got my job at VICE when I started doing documentaries when I was 24. And that's when really, you know, everything took off. Then I never had to go back to, you know, laboring or whatever I was doing, you know? How did you get the job at VICE? Yeah. So I saw, so I was writing for VICE. I was writing articles for them and I liked it. You know, I still like a lot of what they do. I'm not, I don't think they went down a very good direction, but you know, it was a very, at the time it was like amazing. It was like real big impact doing their own thing and like really making a mark. And I was writing for them and they were giving me like great opportunities that I weren't getting anywhere else because they were just like, oh, you know, other places were too stuffy. It didn't really fit my kind of journalism. You know what I mean? It was very like rough underground type stuff. So VICE really gave me that kind of, like, they gave me the opportunity. And then I saw VICE News started. I saw an advert for it. And they were like, oh, you know, we're doing this, this and this war and stuff like that. And I thought that's everything I like about VICE without the stuff I don't like. You know what I mean? I have to work there. I must work there. So I contacted the editor that I was writing for. I was like, look, you've got to give me the email address to whoever this is running it. It was a guy, Kevin Sutcliffe, and he was like a new guy that was working for them. And he was just like brilliant. And basically I just bugged him, bugged him. I was like, look, I want to come and work for you. His work I've done before. And he said, all right, like, you've got ideas. I still got ideas. He said, all right, come then. And I was like, at the time I was so broke that I think I had to like borrow some money from my grandma to get the train from the Midlands to London. And I got there and I got to the office. I was like, oh, we've got a meeting. And he was like, oh, I forgot. Sorry, I've got to go. And I was like, fucking hell. So he said, oh, it's going to be like three hours, like come another day. And I thought, no, man, forget that. So I just waited and waited and waited. And he come back. He was like, what are you doing here? Sort of thing. And I was like, he said, wait. And he was like, I think he thought like, all right, like this kid's a bit weird. Or like, at least he's trying. You know what I mean? So he said, all right, come on, 10 minutes. I'll give you, you know, like, we'll do the thing. Picture my ideas to him. And he was like, all right, you know, this is good. And then I went back up to the Midlands, didn't hear anything. I was working away on my day job and like writing on the weekend. And then they just rang me once. I remember they were like, are you going to work for us then? Like that. And I was like, really? And they were like, yeah, what's your day rate? Now, at the time, I was so broke. I said a hundred pound a day. And that was more money I'd ever been on ever. I thought that was amazing at the time. I'm like, okay, a hundred pound a day. I was like, wow, a hundred pound a day. So they were like, off you come. Like, so start next week. So we walked straight out of the job and then went down there. And they brought me on as like a researcher. And I did like a video testing, like, you know, like you're on the camera and they ask you things and and then within like two weeks, they were like, we want you to do documentaries. And I like, this isn't heard of in journalism, you know, at the BBC, you'd be making tea for like 10 years before you even get to talk to a producer. And within like two weeks, they'd like put me on a project within two months. I was out making my first documentary. And for me, it was just, it was surreal, man. And it even come into London and like, the Midlands is not like, you know, it's not like some island off of like, you know, Scotland in like, you know what I mean? Like it's not the middle of nowhere. But it was, it's a very different scene, especially then, you know, like you're talking almost 10 years ago now. And it was just, man, it was surreal. It was so cool. What was your first documentary you done? First doc I did. I made a doc about like very militant Swedish anti-fascists. And there's, there's, well, I mean, we'll see it now. I mean, there's a big like far right kind of party just been voted in Sweden. They have like, despite their kind of, we're all liberal, they have like quite a serious like far right network. And Sweden in Sweden. Sweden is all fucking killing camp. No, no, they got like, like, there was a bombing a few years ago and everything. It's like, you don't hear about it so much, but it's quite serious. And so on the other side of that, there were like anti-fascists that were like going into their homes, like raiding them, attacking them, whatever, whatever, one of them got stabbed. So we had access to film with them. Like, you know, why are you doing this? What's the thing? What's the thing? And that did really well. I remember it hit like a hundred thousand views in like the first day, which back then was like really good. And I was at the gym at the time and my mate like texts me from America, like one of the other vice guys was like, dude, it was Danny Gold, legend, a good friend of mine. So dude, he got a hundred thousand views already. And I was like, I don't know what is that good? Is it bad? Like, he's like, it's really good. So off the back of that, they vice were like, right, you're like, you're a reporter now for us. Like vice news off you go. And then man, just like, it was crazy. I remember like, I'd only left the country like six or seven times before that on like family holidays, like, you know, like it's fun, you know, like my grandma and granddad took me to Italy when I was a kid, been to Spain like several times with my mum and my sisters and that, but I'd never been to like, you know, out in the world like that. I'd always wanted to and I've read so much about things like this. So for me, it was just like, wow, it was like amazing, you know. Well, that stuff, did you do for the base? Mostly war on conflict. So, you know, either like riots across Europe or again, I covered a lot of the Kurdish issues, particularly like you mentioned earlier in Southeast Turkey. So like, you know, Kurdish rebels essentially against their government fighting them. I was really the guy that I wanted to make a niche for myself because I was known there really advice news, you know what I mean? And I knew that I was like, I'm just this guy. I think they just wanted someone a little bit different because they had a lot of like posh reporters. I'm obviously not very posh, you know what I mean? And I was like, okay, I don't want to be that guy that's like, oh yeah, like let's get the working class kid on, you know, crime in wherever. I wanted to be like, no, I want to do my own thing. I don't feel like I should be shoeboxed into this because I sound like this or sound like whatever. Unfortunately, that made that gave me a real complex. And I was like, really trying to talk like really, really proper, you know what I mean? Which when I look back, I'm like, that was so dumb. Like who cares? You know what I mean? But anyway, like they kind of, my boss Kevin was great and he gave me the opportunity. He was like, look, I know you don't want to do. Look, put it this way, advice at the time, I had like four people within the first couple of weeks be like, do you want to do a football? Who live in documentary? Why? Why me? You know, I was like, no, I don't. Which I wouldn't because now I've done one. But at the time, you know what I mean? I was like, no, I don't. And my boss was great. He's like, I get it. He's like, you don't want to be put into that. Like I'm going to give you the opportunities to do what you want to do. And so I found a niche for myself reporting on like guerrilla groups. You know what I mean? Like not like your regular army, not like British army. You're talking like, you know, militant groups, terrorists, whatever, you know what I mean? And I found that really more interesting, separatists, you know, irregular forces. I wasn't so interested in like, this guy has got a T whatever tank for me. I don't care. Like it doesn't, but that doesn't really interest me. What interests me is like, oh, this young lad somewhere has worked. How to make a bomb using like, I don't know, sieve. You know what I mean? Some stuff he's found under the kitchen sink. So that to me was always way more interesting. So yeah, man, they let me just kind of go with it. And through that, I covered a lot of the Kurdish issues. Again, like I ended up getting arrested for that in Turkey, which was a nightmare, but it was still all a good experience. You know what I'm saying? So the Kurdish, that's, what is that? Iranians? So yeah. So it split up between four parts. You've got split over Iran, Iraq, Southeast Turkey and Northern Syria. So they don't have their own country. Well, you know what I mean? Like borders. So each, each part has its own separatist group, militant group, independence rebels, whatever you want to call them. And we at the time were doing Southeast Turkey because it's when ISIS, the war with ISIS was really, really booming and they were fighting the Kurds in, in Northern Syria, which is right on the border with Southeast Turkey. And at the time the government in Turkey was, you know, trying to have a ceasefire with the militant group in their country, trying to make peace. So the Kurds were like, okay, well, let us cross the border to fight and like join our brothers and sisters that are fighting there because ISIS is killing them. And the Turkish government was kind of like, well, no, they're Kurds. So, you know, essentially they didn't really mind that they were getting killed. Okay. They don't like ISIS, but they were like, well, you know, enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of vibe. You know what I'm saying? So that's how it happened. And through that and many other issues, I mean, it has been going on for like, like 50, 60 years, you know, the resistance there. But through that, there was like a flare up amongst the youth. And you're talking like 16, 17, 18 year old kids in the urban areas, like very deprived areas. Suddenly like, right, we're not having this anymore, started kind of shutting down their own areas and the police moved in, started shooting kids, you know, like actually shooting kids, many unarmed as well. There's evidence, like video footage of them just shooting unarmed kids. So I was like, all right, let's go. You know what I mean? What's the plan is, what's the plan of attack when you go to these places, these war zones, there's got to be safety there, or is that just the case, I book your tickets and go and wing it? How do you plan it out? I mean, it's never safe. You know what I mean? But there's ways to make it safer. If you know what I'm saying. So there's a lot of reports just be like, it's happening. Get the ticket, which to be honest, when I was younger, I was reckless like that. I didn't really, I was like, if I die out doing this, I'm going to do cares, which I think is math. Like that's actually not good. That doesn't make you a good reporter to be fearless. You need to fit. You know what I mean? Because I was always like, get to the front, you know, as close to the action as close to whatever. And yeah, I do still believe you do need to get close because you'll never understand the combat fully unless you're like close, close, but you don't need it. Like, you know, you don't want to do it for yourself only. You know what I'm saying? So I think there's ways of making it safer. So for example, if we're like, okay, for that story, I was like, okay, there's not rising Southeast Turkey, you know, Kurdish teenagers with like grenades and rifles, but you know that they're not like, they're not like hood rats. They're not roadmen. You know, if you turn up, they're not going to be like, give me your phone. They're not them. They're good people. They're in a bad spot. So already it's a lot easier to talk with them. It's not like I want to go and hang out with ISIS. Obviously they're going to cut my head off. It's very different. So, you know, through various different people that I knew already in the Kurdish community, I kind of reached out and be like, hey, do you know any of these? So yeah, actually, yeah. Fucking hell, my cousin's actually fighting down there. Okay, can you put me in touch? Yeah, no, no problem. So we start talking. I say, look, I get what you're doing. I want to come and tell this story. No one else is covering it. And I know that I think there was like three lads under 18 have been shot dead in the street before anyone covered it outside of Turkey. So I was like, let me go and do it. And, you know, they were kind of like, all right. Like, you know, if you come here, here's a number. Ring us, you know, blah, blah. But obviously I don't speak the language. I don't speak Kurdish. I don't speak Turkish. So then you need a fix on the ground. You need someone who does. You can kind of Interpret? Yeah, exactly. Interpret, but also be the middleman. You know, it's more than just it's, I say this to be, but it's not Google translate. Anyone can Google translate. You need an interpreter. Like you said, you know, someone that can interpret the situation, interpret the language, explain what's going on. You need someone with real street smarts, real savvy, you know what I mean? So if you find a good fixer, they're worth their weight in gold. I mean, I don't even fixer isn't even the right term. Like often in our documentaries now with my platform with popular front, we say to them, like, look, do you want to be called a fixer or like, like field producer? Because they're helping you produce the thing. They're going, right, today we, you know, you say this what I want. And then they go, okay, let me make it happen. So we need a good person like that. And then yeah, then it's literally a case of get the ticket over you go. And then generally you'll meet up with somebody and then you're kind of life is in their hands, you know, how do you build up trust with them just by being truthful with them? Or because you could be anybody you could be working for the enemy or whoever they're fighting that. How did they know? Yeah, no, it's a good question because it's it is hard. Like it's not ways that easy. Now at the stage of my career now, that ought to be big headed, but I think I have a good of enough reputation as being honest that it's kind of all right. Even people that don't like me, that hate me, I don't think they would sound a lighter. You know what I mean? I don't think they say they can say my maybe that was, I mean, they'll come up with fucking anything. But I think generally it's like, yeah, like, okay, he's a dick, but we get to say, you know what I mean? Or whatever that, which is fine by me. I don't care. But obviously when you first start out and also even a different crowd, it's like difficult. What do I show them? You know what I'm saying? So I think I think the way to build up trust is, yeah, you just have to be honest. And there's a real, you can't be lying to people like that. You can't be like, if I, you know, I've done work into like fucking militant neo-Nazis and I've had to talk with them and meet with them. Some of them, like obviously not the ones that are doing it, but like, you know, people may be associated that are like, oh yeah, you know what? They've gone too far. I want to help you out. And I straight up tell them, I'm like, look, I can have a conversation with you, but I fucking hate you. You know what I mean? I hate everything you believe in. And, you know, on the other side of a front line, you would be enemies, whatever. But right now in this situation, you know, I'm going to be honest with you. And to be honest, most people appreciate that, you know what I mean? Like even when, like I was in prison at one point with like ISIS guys, like actual ISIS guys from Chechnya that were like getting deported the same way we were. And you know, we ate lunch next to them. I mean, they're my enemy. I'm their enemy. They hate me. In fact, they wanted to like kill us, but there's a, you know, it's real life is not the internet. And sometimes you have to make like very uneasy, like compromises to get the trust because you're not trying to be friends. You know, it's like you said, you're not, you want trust. You want to be honest. You're not trying to make friends. You're trying to make a report and you want to make it happen. So I guess, yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dance. You know what I mean? But it's about being honest, I think. How did you get the jail in Turkey? How did you get to jail? Oh man. So we'd been there twice before filming with this militant group, like the urban youth movement. The militant group being the PKK, like very long, long standing of like, you know, resistance, militancy, Turkey would say terrorism to the state and whatever, like very, very skilled guerrilla fighters. You know, like, I mean for 40, 50 years, Turkish government has been like, they're on their last legs. And like another 10 years later, you know, they've got like a thousand new recruits and still fighting the war or whatever. So I was in Southeast Turkey and at the time, the first time I went, it was a little bit less authoritarian than it is now. I mean, a lot of people don't realize why they're fucking getting drunk in Bodrum. The, you know, Turkey is the second largest jail of journalists worldwide, just under China. And that's not just foreign reporters or Kurdish reporters. That's Turkish reporters as well. You know what I mean? And that's deeply authoritarian government. Can't speak against them? Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely. There's a case in a city in Southeast Turkey where they actually changed the traffic lights because they were yellow, red, green, and that's the Kurdish colors. So they changed the traffic lights. Yeah, yeah. It's very, very extreme. And I, you know, I witnessed that first time. But when I first went there, there was like a reform going on, you know, and it wasn't so bad. You could report openly, not very, but a lot more open than you could, you know, they allowed the Kurdish communities to have their own flags and celebrate their culture. And then, you know, they had a ceasefire with the militant group. But then the Kurds, obviously, you know, they're smart people. They were in the politics now and then they got elected into government. So they got past the threshold with it. Like, it wasn't just the Kurdish party. It was a lot of, like, Turkish leftists and liberals joined them as well, because, you know, they weren't against the government. There's a big difference between, you know, the state and the people. So when they got into parliament, the government went, mm-mm. Fuck that. We can't let them have any power. Basically started a war in the Southeast. The ceasefire was off and it all kicked off again. So we filmed just before that happened and the youth was saying, like, there's going to be a war here. We're already fighting. Then the war happened. So I went back and essentially it was like a full blown war. It was, it was like Syria in Southeast Turkey. Like Southeast Turkey is very different to the rest of Turkey. If you've been to Istanbul, it's a beautiful city. Don't get me wrong. It's amazing. Southeast Turkey is the total opposite. Southeast Turkey is more like hot Eastern Europe. You know what I mean? Or hotter Eastern Europe. Like it's very different, very, you know, deprived, you know, because most of the, well, a lot of the Kurds live there. It's Kurdish. They see it as like, well, the Kurds, it's their land, but like the Turks say it's a Kurdish area, but it's our land. You know what I'm saying? So it's whatever. It's like, you know, we always hear these stories all over the world. So we went there and it was a full scale war, like absolutely hectic. You know, I mean, Turkey is NATO's second largest army. So you had NATO forces firing tanks into like little houses where literally teenage rebels were fighting. You know, it was crazy, man. It was the maddest stuff. I mean, I wasn't there for that. Like I didn't see that specifically, but like we were there for a lot of it, like on the ground and it was just a war zone. And so we were there and we were kind of behind enemy lines. If you're like, you know, there was no other reporters there really, like one or two, but not really. And we were in the areas full control over because some cities they'd completely taken control. The military couldn't really take them. You know, the police were long gone. And so there we were. Okay. But then we moved to a city where, you know, we wanted to tell the story of the city that's in flux. So half of the city is under control of the Kurds. The other half is still under control of the Turkish state. And that's where we got arrested. And so one day we were filming with these like militants and they were like firing a gun up the road and all this shit. We get back to the hotel and just police everywhere, like, you know, what's happening here? And I kind of knew immediately, I was like, this is bad. You know what I mean? Like I knew the way the government was going. We were lucky. We were only in for like 11 days. I mean, it was like four different prisons, very brutal, max security prisons. We were charged of being terrorists, which was madness to me. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, you know, I've never, I've never been a combatant in my life. Not like with weapons anyway. You know what I mean? It was just madness to be like what we're terrorists. Like what? And basically, they were saying that we're like propagandists for them, because whatever. So, yeah, so they threw us in prison and yeah, that was just like a nightmare. It was like a dungeon. But anybody know that you were injured over here? Well, luckily, I mean, at the time, I mean, I've got a lot of issues with vice in the way they conduct themselves now and the content they put out. But that has nothing to do with the way they have helped us and continue to help us. They basically, as soon as they found out, they found someone with quickly just texting like we're getting arrested and then they took our phones or whatever. And they just went like above and beyond. They did everything they could like immediately got lawyers. Like one guy, Yoni really nice guy like flew over to like just be in Turkey while we were there. Just so we had like, I mean, we barely were allowed like visits. But yeah, I mean, they did everything they could do. But essentially, I'll never forget there was one time like the first night we were, we were being taken in to the like the cell for expenses because obviously there's a full blown fucking war going on. There's no ATM machine. You know what I mean? You can't just use thing. And we got it all in small notes because it's a very poor area. You don't need a lot of like big notes there. And then for some reason, you know, obviously they're like, Oh, you're paying these guys. And I was like, what these guys are known for like, you know, doing all sorts of madness around the world to funnel money back to their organization to continue to fight. They certainly don't need like two grand from some like idiot reporters. But anyway, they were like, whatever. So he's like, I'm going to count all the money in front of you. I was like, all right, fine. So he guys counts the money. I must have like, just got the ass on. I was like, this is bollocks. Like we have rights. Like what the fuck are you doing? Like we're, you know what I mean? And he just said to me, you're Turkish now. And that's it. And basically is kind of, you know, he was inferring like, we'll do whatever we want. You know, and you don't have rights anymore. And from then on, I realized like, all right. And I was like, oh yeah, I was like brave like, nah, man, I was mad scared. Like, I was scared as anybody would be with me and like, two of my best friends. Luckily it wasn't just two random people. I was like two of my closest friends. I was in prison with Russell, our like Kurdish interpreter and my mate Phil, who was filming. So that was like really helpful. And they'd arrested so many Kurds that they put us in a solitary confinement cell, but they didn't have enough cells. So they had to put like, so I was in the cell with, with my friends, and Russell was next to us so we could talk in and out the cells. So it could have been worse, you know, but we all made a pact. We were like, look, it's scary, but you know, we're going to pull through. We're going to get out of this. And we did, you know, because it's turkeys. Obviously, ISIS, Taliban, you see them fucking knives at the throat and taking hostages and ransomes like, did you know Turkey? It was, they weren't really known for killing journalists. Well, one of the prisons, yeah, one of the prisons we were put in the Abakir prison, one of the worst prisons on earth. You know what I mean? So I was like, and we were in the Abakir when we were arrested, and I was like, okay, I hope we don't go in there. Went to, went to court, got sent there. And as we're going in, there's a guy just getting wheeled out on a stretcher covered in blood, dying, like coughing up. I was like, oh no, we're going to get killed. Some of the guards as well, like I said, like, if I see you in the field, I'll kill you. You know what I mean? So I didn't think we'd get killed, I could easily get killed here. You know, by accident, by accident, you know? So I was a little bit worried, but yeah, I mean, I knew it could be a lot worse. You know, it wasn't ISIS, you know, it wasn't like Taliban or anything like that. But ironically, once we got into the Abakir prison, after seeing this guy like coughing up blood, where we thought, we've had it, we get in there and all the guards were like really nice. They were like the loveliest guards and they were like, hey, like once the jail is left, the cops left, they were like, okay, it was a kettle. And we're like, I will be all right. I remember my mate, it feels like we could do a few months in here. Like it's not that bad. Next day, Turkish cops turned up, they must have realized, I don't know, something like this at the gate with a gun and I was like, what the fuck? So then we got put in the back of this weird, like, it's called a scorpion. It's like a armored vehicle, like cuff like this, like you literally couldn't move like your fucking knees under your chin. Eight hours in like the blistering heat, no food, no water. And then we got into the country, the Kurdish areas to the very nationalist, like ultra nationalist area in Adana, which was, I mean, as soon as we got into prison there, you just immediately, the attitude changed. I mean, they put us in a holding room, no joke, had blood, everything was written in blood and it was Isis, which is Isis in Turkish. So we realized and Resul, he can read it all, bless him. You know, he speaks Turkish, he speaks Kurdish and he was like, fuck, he was like, and they accused us being both working with the PKK, so the Kurdish militant group and the jihadists, Isis militant groups. And I was like, how? Because they hate each other, they're fighting each other, but I guess they did it so they could then put us in a very scary prison, probably to scare us. You know what I mean? But honestly, in the end, the jail is even in there after like a day or two, you could tell they were like, we know, you know, they're not the court. They kind of, they kind of even said to us like, actually the treatment got a lot better. And I remember, you know, they would even say to you like, oh, it's nice to meet you. Like, you know, if you get deported, we hope you have a good time. You know what I mean? I was like, yeah, fuck off, thanks. But yeah, I mean, it could have been a lot worse. What was it like when you get out? Best feeling ever, man. Best feeling. I remember thinking like, you know, before I grew up, like some of my, I know a few people that went to prison and stuff like that, like friends of mine, just for dumb stuff, but seeing them when they get out, you know, you go and get them and whatever. And I thought, oh, that must feel great. And then I got to experience like the most extreme way possible. But like, ah, man, I remember we, we, we come back and like, it was out of prison and we, I mean, we went down to, um, we're in Brick Lane. Me and my mate, we were like all like, I'd lost like a stone in weight. Like I got like some weird like bacteria in my stomach because we barely, you know, we didn't get much food. The conditions were disgusting. So we're all like, ripped apart basically. Like, so we went to go and get haircut in Brick Lane. I remember me and Phil were sat there and Rizul was still in prison at this time. So he got out later, but he was still in there. So we're like, it's the best feeling to get out. But we're like, oh my God, our friend is still in there. So it's a very weird feeling. You know what I mean? But it did feel great to be out for that, you know, honeymoon period. And then you just get the press that your friend is in there. Um, but yeah, we sat in Brick Lane and I remember I was like, this is great. You know what I mean? I was like, our country is fucked in many ways, but we've also got something really nice. And it gave me like a real, a new appreciation for like, you know, what we have. And I don't mean the government. I don't mean the state or monarchy. That's not my thing. I mean, like the people, our neighbors, our people, our friends, you know what I mean? And I was just like, this is great. It's not, it was like to be in free, you're constantly cuffed to your friend or whatever. You know what I mean? And everywhere you go, you can't understand someone's having to tell you a terrorist and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, it was a lot of emotions, man, but it felt good. Really good. How did they treat you once you get out? Great. They told you to take some time off. I was like, yeah, yeah. Well, they told us to take some time off. The first day we got there, we got put in a fancy hotel. And me and Phillip never had lobster before. So we went to Estonia, which obviously there's no war going on there, but they were preparing. They got like, like a volunteer militia force of the, like a government militia just in case Russia invades them. And we made a film about them. And it was like, yeah, straight back in it. You know what I mean? And also they did a lot because obviously Rizul was still in prison. So we did this campaign free Rizul. And we were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we got into the Rizul and we were like, going to all these like fancy. It is ironic really because before this, none of the kind of elitist journal people in the kind of I call it journal world. Like, I'm a journalist, don't get me wrong, but I don't like journal world. I think the industry is corrupt and it thrives on nepotism. And anyway, it's a mess and they never gave a shit about any of our work until we came out of prison. Then all of a sudden we're getting invited to the frontline club But, you know, we're getting brought into all these, like, fancy do's and it was it was to meet it was to meet like influential people when we had this post we'd always hold it up like free resolve like please like raise awareness. And every day like vice will on it every single day updating us. And then eventually we just get a call it was January 5th. And they're like results out we're like what like just released him for some reason and they released him. Ironically, the guy in the church that gave him that said like okay, we'll let you out then himself was arrested and sent to prison. Yeah, so, yeah, man. We had a good lawyer. It was sad one of our lawyers got shot dead shot dead in the street. Tahi Elchi was like a famous kind of Kurdish lawyer. He was representing us. Then he got arrested for saying on TV about the militant group. It's not a terrorist group. The resistance whatever he got arrested and then he got shot dead in weird circumstances. So it was all a crazy situation. But honestly, like I can't fall vice really they really, really came out for us. So Stephen, why was your the other guy kept in longer? It's Kurdish is my opinion. So he feels they feel as if he was working with. No, they knew. I mean, even in court, they knew. I mean, that's the thing. It's like a mirage. It's like, you know, they can see the terror threat over there when they get that a very clearly they're very they like new. We'd never we're not terrorists. We just reporters doing our job. You know what I'm saying? Like we didn't help them. We didn't do anything. We just told their side of the story. We were in prison. I remember in prison, they were like, why are you filming? I said, will you let us film with you? They're like, no. So there you go. We film with them. We film with them. You know, it's all right. Let's come on a ride along with you. We'll film the other side. They're like, no, no, no. So there you go. But like the issue, you know, is that they didn't want I guess what was happening getting out there. I think that's the real issue. But he's Kurdish. He didn't have a powerful government to kind of bat for him. Because again, like, you know, their countries will like split up and they don't have an autonomous region in Iraq, but it's not a country country. Like in that sense. And I think it's a lot easier, unfortunately, for the Turkish government to be like, let those two white kids with red passports out and then it will all go away. But we made sure it didn't go away. But I think that's the way the world works, unfortunately. Did the embassy or anything get involved? A little bit. Nah. Not very much. Why does the British News only report somewhere's money, power, just their own agenda? Why is no one in these sort of places? Well, it's not anything to do with Britain, but usually they're always in the mix somewhere. So why do they pick certain destinations to report on? I've been asking that for years, mate. And that's why we started Popular Front. Like my platform, we go anywhere. We don't care. You get a lot of like editors. We're like, what's the tie into Britain? And I'm like, do you think British people, do you think we only want to hear about British stuff? We don't. I mean, Netflix, everything, if you look at the statistics, what people from Britain watch on Netflix mostly has nothing to do with Britain. We're not that insular. We're not Americans. Unfortunately, Americans do like a lot of that. But people don't need that. And I would say, well, there isn't one. It's a war happening, but people still want to know. Yeah, I'm not interested. You know what I mean? So unfortunately, there's nothing like, I mean, you get a lot of conspiracy. There's all this dark, insidious. The people in power don't want this. And it's not that. It's just like, firstly, a lot of the editors and producers working at the very big mainstream media companies are just inept. A lot of them have got their job because their daddy knows someone in the media. They went to the same private school as their mate. And that's not a conspiracy. Any journalist in Britain will tell you that, even the ones that got there because of that will probably tell you that. So, you know, that's how it is. And a lot of people are very inept and they don't get, they just get in there. They're putting a job. They get paid a lot of money and they're like, fuck, they don't know what they're doing. So they take the path of least resistance. So someone says, I've got this story for you, ties into England. It's very easy. It's not that far away. Great. That's easier for them. And then there's the other side of it where, I mean, you know, I had some arguments with some of my Armenian friends about this. Because Armenia was just invaded a couple of months ago by Azerbaijan. And there was a war a couple of years ago that I reported on unbelievable war crimes happening there, like mostly by the Azerbaijanis. You're talking soldiers, not like ISIS men and soldiers, cutting off the heads of people playing football with it and filming it and uploading it. Raping women, you know, stuff like awful, awful stuff, barely got any attention. And I kind of said, I said, look, it's, it's, why, why the Ukraine? Why does Ukraine get so much more attention? So it's, unfortunately, people in Europe are going to care more about something closer to them. Right. If houses on fire on your street, you're going to be like, oh, shit, I don't want that spread into my house. If the fire is three roads away, who cares? You know, it's sad, but it's not really, I think it's a lot of that. And obviously, you know, Europeans are more interested in what's close to them or they see it as more of a threat or whatever. But then there is the other side of it where, you know, NATO and all that stuff gets involved. So a lot of journalists are very, you know, there's a weird thing where if you're like hardcore neoliberal in your political ideology, which is whatever that's up to you, I don't care. That is seen as like, that's fine. That's good reporting. If you always report the like hardcore neoliberal line. But then if you say, go like left of that, you're biased now. So what? So if it's, if it's your ideas, it's, it's not, but when it's an idea that's different or you perceive it as different, then it's suddenly biased. So that's unfortunate. So essentially, like Armenia is the example. So NATO says Armenia, there's a disputed land between Armenia and Azerbaijan. And they say that disputed land there, Artsakh, when we're gonna carry back belongs to Azerbaijan. So then all the reporters go, okay, let's not read the history. Let's not look into what's happening. NATO says this, so then it's okay. And it's just life doesn't work like that. You know what I mean? That's why I say you got to get on the ground. So there is a big problem with that. Ukraine is a similar thing. There's a lot happening now in Ukraine, which don't get me wrong. Like I think Ukraine has every, you know, right to defend themselves from Russia. There's no, there's no like factual differences. It's like an over invasion of a country. You know what I'm saying? You know, from my organization, we've raised thousands for units in Ukraine, you know, fighting Russia. However, there's a lot of reporters that will simply ignore some things because it's on the good guy side. And that's wrong. That's not life. And that's not truth. You know what I mean? It's not good journalism. Exactly. It's just, it's PR. You know, and there's a lot of reporters doing that right now. But then Russia will support Russia and anybody in Ukraine will support Ukraine. But it's that way that you can see that when the agenda comes in from the news, people are then supporting and sending money all to Ukraine, but not really seeing the picture why Russia tried to invade Ukraine, especially by the thing with NATO. Do you know the full details? Like to explain why Russia invaded Ukraine? Because I was speaking to a man who was obviously talking about NATO and how they'd made an agreement. But they then went against it and Russia were, I don't know, NATO were getting closer apparently to Russia. And then Russia started fighting that. Do you know what the whole story? I know what you're talking about. And honestly, that's bullshit. There's a lot of contrarians who've never been to war. And they go, well, Russia is their right to do this. Go to war, go to the ground and see women's families destroyed when they pick up their children in pieces in bags because Russia decided to go in and bomb the fuck out of them. Do you think anyone on the ground is going, well, we deserve this? NATO did this. That for me is an online talking point. And it's not something I detach myself from it because it's not real life. No one on the ground fighting a war gives a shit about 20 tweet threads by some fucking alleged leftist contrarian like that scumbag Jimmy Dore or whatever them guys. You know what I mean? He's just like some like lunatic that's like basically thinks it's good that Russia was like massacre in children. Literally because NATO bad, you know what I mean? I think NATO is fucking useless. And I think they're deep. Then I don't think they are objectively deeply corrupt as is the EU. But I'm glad we have NATO because that's how life works. You don't always get to bat for your favorite football team in life. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of these contrarians are seeing war as a football match. That's not how it is. And the thing is, well, NATO got too close to Russia. Well, Russia has made NATO stronger than ever. So what? It doesn't make any sense. So then to invade and put yourself even closer to them. It doesn't make sense. Essentially, Russia has had this issue since the revolution. There was a pro Russian government in Ukraine. The people rose up, fought it off because they were like, we don't want this anymore. Again, contrarians, people that have never been to Ukraine, never been to the front line will also tell you that was a NATO backed coup. The way they work is anything that doesn't fit with my ideology is a NATO backed coup. Anything that fits my ideology is real. You know what I mean? It's the same on the other side as well. You know, you get a lot of the very pro-NATO fanboys. They'll do the exact same thing. But that was not a NATO backed coup by any stretch. Let me tell you now, people died. You know what I mean? It's very serious. And no one was out there rallying them to do it. Ukrainians are very real people. They're very smart. They're very tough people. And they have their own agency. It's the same when you're seeing Iran, like the CIA, maybe the CIA is involved, whatever. But are you trying to tell me Iranians are not humans? They don't have their own feelings. If someone steps on your head, you're going to be like, get off my head. You don't need the CIA to come and tell you you need to get that foot off your head. You just do it, right? So the revolution happened. The pro-Russian government is chased out. And now Russia has no influence in Ukraine. Putin is made to look like a bit of a mug. And essentially, over years now, he's built himself back up to go like, all right, you want to kick us out, we'll fucking come for you. I mean, if you just go and look at Russian TV right now. So ironically, they were saying it's a denazification of Ukraine, which is very ironic because per capita, and we just did a long podcast on this, Russia has sent more fascist groups, openly fascist and aligned to the Kremlin to fight in the war than Ukraine has. Every country has a problem with right wing lunatics. You know what I mean? And whatever lunatic, it is what it is. But that's not what it is. So now they've dropped that because it's very clearly been proven bullshit. On the mainstream news in Russia now, they're calling it a desatan. Desatanification or whatever you're saying. So now they're saying like everyone in Ukraine is a Satanist, and that's why they're doing it. And then you'll get some fucking contrarian on Twitter. It's like, actually, this is why they're doing it. It's like their actual government is saying it. So Russia says, we're coming in to be an imperial force. We want to take over you. We don't believe Ukraine exists and fuck your heritage, fuck your culture. The soldiers do the same. Putin says the same. And then some guy on Twitter is like, actually, this is why they did it. It's like, bro, Putin just said this is why they did it. It's actually really clear. But people want to muddy the waters because they see it as a football match. And I'm sure people say to me all the time, oh, you're for this. You're for that. I don't give a shit to me. Oh, oh, do I seem pro NATO now? Do I seem pro this now? Oh, well, I'm not listening to sleep about it. I've been there. I've seen it. And politically, I don't care about NATO. I don't care about like all of this shit. All I care about is like, if you're stepping on someone's head, that's bad. And I think that's what it is. What do you think about war on the whole? I mean, I think it's just like a natural part of human life, unfortunately. I don't believe that there could ever be, you know, I remember, I used to know this guy, he said, if we didn't have any religion, we'd have no wars. I make people fight over bits of turf. Like, you know what I mean? There was no stopping it. You know, monkeys in the wild fight for like their favorite tree or whatever. I just think, unfortunately, war is like a big part of it, of human nature and governments and businesses, huge corporations have realized that, oh, we can make a lot of money doing this. No, I don't believe there's like some big like, you know, octopus going like, ah, move the chess piece here, move the chess piece there. That will start the war there. I think anyone that is on the ground and sees a frontline very quickly realizes that it doesn't work like that. It would be fucking impossible. I think anyone that has that idea that like, yeah, the Luminati did this. I said, okay, I'll take you to the front and show you what is going on. They'd be like, oh, okay. This is an absolute shit show. You know what I mean? Everything's a mess. People are dead, whatever. It's not like that. But there is certainly, without a doubt, like people benefiting massively. The US government benefits, like look at Iraq, benefited so much from, I think Dick Cheney made like a billion from like the Iraq war, you know what I mean? Like, and I think as well, the real saddest part of it is like, I mean, it's rich people, like in the government, it's not their kids that die in the wars. You know what I mean? It's normal people. I mean, if you look at the Iraq war, I mean, I think something like a million people in Britain came out on the streets to say, like, no, we don't want to enter this war. Tony Blair went, all right, fuck you. And then the same kind of people that marched, a lot of their kids ended up dying in the war. And it's like, there is no, there's no, there's no sense. Yeah, it's these fuckers that should be going to war. I think you've seen your son. Yeah, Tony Blair, he was looking for, was it weapons of mass destruction and there was no weapons. Yeah. Was that not for the poppy fields and the oil and the fucking gold and like the darkness frowned at all? I don't know all the ins and outs. We can all be conspiracy theories. We can all talk about mad shit. But when you actually look at the key points and like you say, there's been wars for hundreds and years and millions of years. Who fucking knows? It's something that history books that tell us that. But when you actually go into the depth of it and all in honesty, I would, I would wish no wars on the planet but the fucking is like the same as Britain they've invaded nearly every country on the planet. We're the most ruthless, we're the most fucking manipulative, ruthless greedy. There's a reason my surname doesn't have got to know in it anymore. Do you know what I mean? So it's just seeming you get into these wars and seeming you go frontline. Are you, do you then thrive on that? Do you buzz off bullets and guns? Because I don't have you with a sniper and it was mad. He's battling now that he's not in a war zone but he would rather be in the war zone because he would feel calmer. Do you then thrive off a buzz where you're not just doing it for a job but you're adrenaline so high from it? Yeah, it's a tricky one that. I mean, I've never been involved in like, I don't know. But just going to a war zone whether you're fucking standing back or not is adrenaline rushing itself. Definitely. Because once you've been in prison, your paranoia is going to go through the roof. Your senses are going to go through the roof. So when you're going there, knowing a possibility, even going through customs, you're thinking am I going to get something? Everything then becomes adrenaline. Going to the airport, getting off the plane, going to the hotel, then going to work. Everything just becomes an adrenaline. How do you then? But I do buzz off it but I buzz off it in a different way. Anyone that tells you frontline is not exciting, it's just lying. Like if you don't find it, I mean, some people go frontline, they're terrified, they never go again. They didn't find it exciting. I've been several times in many different countries. There is a level of it that of course it's exciting. I mean, it's life or death. It's exciting. But I don't buzz off that as much as I do buzzing off of just being in a completely unusual situation. Like everyday life is boring, right? You get up, you make your coffee, I walk my dog, I do this. Don't get wrong, I love my job and I like running my business and I don't have to work for anybody, whatever, but there's nothing like being out there meeting new people and being like, whoa, what the fuck is this? Whoa, why is that car flipped upside down? You know what I mean? What you guys used to be like, mechanics, now you're building tanks and bombs, like that is what I buzz off. Not so much the action and all the adrenaline of nearly dying. I mean, to be honest, the older I get, I lose my nerve a lot more now. Like, I don't think it's losing my nerve. I think it's getting more sensible and realizing I've got priorities back home and if I die, more than just me is going to leave this earth in that sense. Like, you know what I mean? It's going to ruin a lot of people's lives. And so for me, it's like maybe that is why I'm a little bit more cautious. But honestly, I get a bigger buzz from like, just being around new people, working, I'm on the job. We've got a direction, we get up, we've got this to do. Let's go and do it. You know, even when you meet, like say, you know, I've interviewed, I've had some horrible interviews. You know, interviewing old women and they're like, yeah, my 14-year-old boy was shot dead and like, you know, they're cuddling the toy. No, obviously I'm not getting a buzz off of that. Don't get me wrong. That is not a buzz. It's depressing, you know, and it stays with you. But even knowing that you can then put that out in the world and be like, hey, look what happened to this poor woman. Look what happened to her son. That's a buzz. Not a buzz of that's good. A buzz of being like, hey, I came here to tell this story. No one would have known otherwise. To me, I just think, you know, I don't want to win awards or anything like that. I don't give a shit about that. Certainly journalism awards are mostly fixed anyway. It's very funny. I could tell you it's so funny the way journalism awards work. It's so corrupt. It's unbelievable. But I don't want to win them anyway because I mean, it's cringe. But I just want young lads, young women to just go like, oh, I didn't know that. And now I do. That's all you should be doing. And now I get a buzz off that. You know, I showed someone this. And making it, the way I do my stuff, we make it that you want to watch it. It's not boring. You know what I mean? We're trying to give people a little feel of what it's like to be in that situation. Because yeah, there is a buzz. There's a real buzz. But again, it's not the life or death. It's just being in a situation that is so different to normal and being able to put this thing together to show the world. And you meet the most unreal people in the world. You know what I mean? Like for about a worse, even some people I've met that I hate. I'm so glad I met them because it's just fascinating. I'm all about like getting a buzz from like new experiences, you know? Yeah. It's trying to understand, like you say, everybody. I've interviewed IRAMN, UDAMN. They've says if they grew up a mile down the road, I mean, fine for another cause. Yeah. Yeah. It's everybody's got an agenda. Everybody's got a conditioning to it. They believe is right for them at that moment. Like the surroundings, the people they with, like grandparents losing loved ones, whatever the fuck it is. Everybody's chooses that path because it's the right decision they felt at the time. So it's to give people for me personally even interviewing yourself or other people. It's to give people the platform to tell their story for their side and why they get involved in the things they've done, what they've done. Just that's all it is, man. Like I think we're living in a generation now where people just love to throw their own agenda on the others. And if they don't believe in them, then you're a fucking bad person. They try and cancel you. Yeah. Fuck everybody else. It's tiring. I mean, even people I don't like online where I'm like that person's such a cunt. You know, I mean, to be honest, like I believe in like strong, quite militant, anti-fascist causes. I believe if you're like a Nazi, you want to come to my friends and say something to them, I think you should have your face smashed in. I don't believe that. But people are still allowed to believe bad things. You know what I mean? You can't go into someone's brain and rip out their brain for me. Well, I guess there's a difference. I mean, if you're trying to then cause violence to someone, I think then you should, you know, have violence done back to you. It's self-defense. But you can't just like tell everyone that they have to think the same thing. It firstly, it's boring. What boring world would it? Okay, yeah, there's extremists. It's bad and this person got upset and this happened. Yeah, that is bad. And thank God there's people who come and do things. But I don't want to live in a world where everybody believes the same thing. But the fuck would be the point? See, when you get into war zones, when can you ever switch off? Do you think you struggle with that now? PTSD or anything? Do you know what? I didn't. But again, a lot of war reporters, they love having PTSD. Some of them, yeah. Because I know a lot of reporters will hear this. They'll be like, how dare you say that? Fuck off, it's true. I've been at bars like journal gatherings. It's like, can we talk about something else other than how many kids you've seen killed? You know what I mean? It's like, you're trying to have a beer with your pal and he's like, you want to believe what I saw in Iraq? It's like, bro, there's no cameras here. You're not on camera. No one's watching right now. Share the war stories. You know what I mean? For me, that is fucking atrocious. If I'm at a bar and have a buzz in my pals, I don't want to hear about your fucking PTSD. We've all got our issues. And also, I'm like, what you've seen, I know a single mother's on the estate where I grew up, I've seen 10 things worse and they're not going on about it. It's fuck off. But you do, I think that made me feel I don't have PTSD. I'm fine. Not macho. I'm not macho at all. I'm a clown. You know what I mean? I like being silly and whatever. But I do think that I try to ignore it for a long time. And after I came out of prison, then I got quite bad for like six months. I was very like, anytime someone knocked the door, I would just think of the keys turning in the fucking lock and my heart would go, yeah. And then now I know that I'll have like night terrors sometimes. You know what I mean? And then if I remember it, it's always I'm back in prison. So that's got to be a form of PTSD or something. And then there is, there's something, I guess how I misunderstood a lot of what PTSD was as well. Like I just thought, you know, oh, you feel bad or you feel whatever. Now it's Diwali right now, right? And there's, you know, there's a lot of people near where I live were celebrating Diwali and certain fireworks just sounded like gunshots. And I didn't get scared. I just had like a bit of a rush. And I was like, it's fucking weird. You know what I mean? I was like, I didn't want that. I was like, oh, I don't like that. That's odd. But for it, honestly, for a split second, it wasn't like, it wasn't like I was there or anything like, you know what I mean? But it was just like, my body just started reacting that way. And there was one time a while ago, I was walking my dog, the weirdest thing that's happened to me actually in regard in this PTSD. I've never actually mentioned this to anyone, but I was walking my dog and there was, it was actually through like a posh area. I was like, let's go and look what they're doing. So I went through there and obviously they were rich. So they're always building bigger bits on their house. Like beautiful houses and whatever. But there was a house there that's like, it was breeze blocks. They hadn't put the front on it. Now in the Middle East, there's a lot of buildings that look like that. And particularly where we were filming one point in Syria and a point where when I was filming in Southeast Turkey, all of the brick buildings were like half finished. And we went past, I went past the building like that with my dog. And for some reason, for like a second or so, I was like back there. Do you know what I mean? It was really weird. It's the weirdest. I've never even felt that one time. And it was like, I was not in danger. I wasn't scared. I just was suddenly, I literally, everything in my body felt like I was back in this one town where to be honest, we'd seen some quite bad things happen there. Maybe that was the connection. But not from like anything, not from a sound, just from seeing this like breeze block building. And I kind of had to like shake it off. I was like, whoa, God, that was weird. You know what I mean? It really like rolled me up a little bit. But that's the only thing I've had like that. Maybe that's PTSD. Maybe that's, I don't know what that would be. You know what I mean? But I definitely think it stays with you. But I don't, like I'm saying, I'm not a soldier. I'm not a killer. I've never done anything like that. Those guys obviously have it like so much worse than any reporter would. I think probably, although I would say maybe reporters are different because you actually end up at more wars than a soldier ever would, you know what I mean? But you don't do any of the day work, obviously. So I think they get it worse. But I do think that you get it, but you don't, it's not always terrible that you have it. It's not always bad to remember certain things. You know what I'm saying? I don't struggle with it is what I'm saying. Yeah. He's going to war. He knows what he's going to war for. Absolutely. But for a journalist who's maybe seen a fucking kid's head blow off, or seen fucking dead bodies everywhere, like you're not expecting it. So obviously it's like a doctor, maybe you get used to it, maybe it becomes cold to it. Yeah. Doesn't mean it doesn't fucking affect them. Yeah. You know what I mean? So there's not a 14-year-old girl as well. You've seen wrapped in bandages. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. I wrote about it. Yeah. That really always stays with me. But it doesn't stay with me in a way of like, it's not waking me up at night. It's just, I think about it a lot. There was a young girl that had been shot in Southeast Turkey. And she had like a bullet wound in the back. And then she had shrapnel in the head or the other way around, I forget. But she was all like wrapped up in bandage. And yeah, they said she was 14 or 13, I forget, but around that age. Yeah. And it was like, the cousin come over. I think her parents were dead or I don't know what happened. But the cousin was looking after and they were like, it was in the middle of like, the combat zone. But this was in a town. So it wasn't like, there was no like real front lines. The whole town was the front line, essentially, you know, you just hear firing at any moment after leave or get down or whatever. But yeah, so she comes over and the cousin kind of unwraps the bandages and I was like, no, no, no, you have to see this. And it's like kind of like, it wasn't terrible. There was like, I mean, you can see the holes. There was pus coming out of one of them. And they were explaining what happened. And she was, she was explaining it. I'd have to ask Rizul for the full like interpretation because obviously it was Kurdish and he was speaking. But from what I remember, she was basically saying like, we can't really go to the hospital because they'll arrest us, the Turkish soldiers. Because they'll just say that we're terrorists. And it's like, we're not terrorists. This girl just got caught in the line of fire, you know. And that night I remember seeing a thing where they had actually parked these armored vehicles outside the A&E. So like where the ambulance is meant to go, they parked basically an APC like, like a tank, let's say a tank, like a tank kind of vehicle outside the A&E. And I just, that really, I just was like, man, that's some kind of evil. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like, I don't know. It's just like, it's just really brutal. And then yeah, and that girl, I just remember thinking like, man, I hope she's all right. You know what I mean? I mean, I think things are deeply saddening, but it sticks with you. It's good that that stays with you. If that just left, you just forgot, oh, I forgot about that. I think, man, you're in the wrong job because you need empathy to be a reporter. You can't be, there's a lot of journalists that are like, I had it as well. Like, you know, people that I'd spend time with, I know so many young people, old or whatever, people that I'd spent time within the war zones, they're dead now. And they died violent deaths, like so many. And you know, that would, every single one I'd find out, like he's dead. I'm like, ah, fucking hell. Like I'm gutted. I can't believe that I died. I remember I was at Vice one time and he's actually, me and him are kind of getting on quite well, but he was like, what do you care? You didn't even know him. I was like, mate, we were like in a life and death situation together for like 48 hours. He invited me into his land or whatever. You know, we shared dinner. We shared a drink and, you know, he kind of kept us safe and we came to tell his story for me. That's a very fascinating bond. Okay, you're not best friends. You're not going to like, you know, you're not going to be like that, but that's important, I think, you know. It's an experience. It's a human connection. So everyone that dies, I'm real sad about it. I'm like, ah, fuck man, I'm gutted he died, you know. And you know, I found it really weird that reports like, I get used to it as part of the job. And I'm like, I don't want to ever get used to that. Okay, you do a little bit, but I don't want to get fully used to that because it's good to care that people you've shared an experience with die. That's completely normal in human, you know. So see when the war in Russia and Ukraine started, how did you end up over in Ukraine working with the, we're doing a report on Ukraine. Ultras was that? Oh yeah, yeah, the Ultras, man, yeah. So I've been, before the war, before this war, I've been going to Ukraine since 2016 because the war has actually been on going since 2014, but you know, very just in the East. So see when you report, were you reporting that way back then? Yeah, yeah. So see when it goes mainstream just a year ago, do you then think, fuck me, like I was reporting on that. Yeah, a little bit. Do you think they got annoyed? A little bit. That you've already reported on something like, even being in Turkey, and then with the Kurdish and this and that, if that kicks off in four years, then people start reporting it then. Yeah. You would be thinking, well, I've reported. Well, I don't really, I feel a little bit, but also I'm like, thank God everyone's paying attention to it because it's like, it's not my beat. But there is some, I tell you what, when all the reports flood down, I'm like, good. That I think that's good. What does piss me off? Well, what the Telegraph has just done. So the Telegraph newspaper in England has just written an article about this documentary that you're talking about with the Ultras. The same group interviewed one of them and not mentioned my reporting at all. They've not said, by the way, Jake Hanrahan did, I was the first one to do that doc and they were a very underground group. You would have not heard of them. There is no way this guy heard of them without seeing my work first. So that kind of thing pisses me off. All you have to say is, by the way, like, oh, first reported by, yeah, of course. I'd be like, no problem. It's lazy John. It's very lazy. It's actually more than that. It's not like lazy would be forgetting. Admitting it on purpose is like cruel. You know what I mean? It's fucking sly. It's stealing someone's work. Basically. It's stealing someone's work. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, so I was reporting in East Ukraine. I think I've been to Ukraine about 10 times. So you've already got a bond with Ukraine. Yeah, yeah. And I've been on both sides as well, by the way. I've been on the Russian backside as well. I got kicked out. I got banned from there because they didn't like what I produced. It's like North Korea there. It's fucking crazy. I'm so glad I got to go there. It's one of the most fascinating places I've ever been to. Everything is fake. It's really, really weird, man. It's so creepy. You're not allowed to go anywhere without a minder. So there has to be one of their people with you the whole time. Like to even leave the hotel to like go and get like a drink from the shop, like a juice. They're like, they wait for you and they take you. They take you back. It's fucking mental. Really weird place, man. But yeah, yeah. So I'm reporting on that. So the last documentary I just done, which is probably the one I'm most proud of, probably ever, I think. So in East Ukraine, so in Ukraine, there's a very, very big, violent subculture of football uliminism. Now it's not, I'm going to offend a lot of English football uliminism here, but I think East European uliminism is real football uliminism. Getting smashed with a big fat belly and doing 15 lines and like glass in some 18 year olds, which we've seen with like a lot of old school football uliminism in England is not really, I'm not that interested in it. East European is like, they all go MMA. They're all like, most of them are like straight edge. They don't drink. They don't smoke. They don't do drugs. You know, they're like fucking machines and they're good at combat. They do more entirely. That to me, I'm fascinated by that. Not to say that, I shouldn't say it's not real uliminism, but I think now that the old British style has died, that is what is real now. You know what I'm saying? And there's a lot more effort into it. And to be honest, I have no issue with football uliminism personally. I don't feel like you should tell a group of lads that mutually agreed to fight each other, that they're not allowed to fight each other. Like why? They're not fighting random, people in the street. They're meeting in a contained area to fight. I thought, why is the, what's that got to do with the government? I don't understand that. But anyway, so in Ukraine, they've got a very hardcore football uliminism scene. Unbelievable. You're talking like 70 on 70 fights. They meet up in the fields. I'm sure you've seen stuff about this. But unfortunately, a majority of that subculture is far right. Neo-Nazi, like very, you know, it's like the same with any country. I mean, Italy has literally just voted in like openly pro-fascist government. We have it everywhere in Europe. But yeah, same in Russia as well. All their hooligans, 99% Neo-Nazi. Eastern Europe, that's what happens. All racist? Brutally racist. Yeah, like unbelievably, like swastikas, everything. But within that scene, there was one hooligan firm that were the opposite. So they said, no, we're like, we don't like that shit. We're anti-fascist. We're against you. We don't like Nazism. We're not against gay people. We're not against black people. You know what I mean? We don't like that. And they weren't even that explicitly political. I mean, that is a political stance. Don't get me wrong. But they were like, you know, they weren't like, oh, we're the communists. We're the anarchists. So they were just like, we don't like that shit. We're against that. So they formed their own group. And they're as tough as the far right ones, which again is like, the Americans were, when they watched our doc, they were like, what, these guys are anti-far? I'm like, yeah. And they were like, but they're really tough. I'm like, yeah. Like this isn't blue hair screaming somewhere, like which a lot of Americans associate with whatever, which I don't care. It's whatever. But so these are like very hardcore lads that just decided to do the other side. They were like, no, we're not racist. So we're going to fight you. And so in the end, basically, which the name is kind of when they'd see the Nazis, they say, put your hood up. And then, you know, they're fighting them. And clan was just a kind of, they're kind of mocking them, you know, like the Ku Klux Klan. They were like, all right, we're the Huts Huts Klan, but we're anti-racists. So like, you know, they're fucking with them. That's what Ukrainian comedy, that's the, Ukrainians are such funny, lovely. I love their culture. They're like tough people, but they don't mind being silly. You know, and I love that kind of style. Unfortunately, when we did our dark load of like, leftist America, why are they called Huts Huts Klan? Are they secretly the Ku Klux Klan? I was like, no, they're not like, sorry, America, the world doesn't revolve around you. You know. But anyway, so these lads all came together and they were the only ones. So literally every other football hooligan, football ultra firm in Ukraine were like, they're our enemy. So they fought everyone. So like, they were in this very specific situation where all the Nazi groups teamed up to beat them up. Luckily for them, Huts Huts Klan were like, extremely good at fighting and putting them in a corner gave them like a brotherhood. And they were also punks. So they're like very, they're all straight edge as well, most of them. So they're like, you know, covered in tattoos, no drink, no drugs, no smoking, you know, like a lot of them are vegan, which another thing that very surprised a lot of Americans, like big, huge, like hardcore fighters that are vegan. So they were like, they had a real brotherhood, you know, they put on these punk shows and whatever. So that made them real strong. So when the Nazis came for them, there's actually, it's really funny. There's a book called 1312 amongst the ultras and this guy, Philomonov, he's like a fascist fighter. He was one of the main guys of the Dynamo Kiev Ultras firm, which they were called the white boys and they're like openly, you know, swastikas on their t-shirts and everything. He even admits, he's like, yeah, I don't like them. They beat the shit out of me. You know what I mean? Like they were fucking people up. And so these fascists were getting really upset that they were getting beaten up by like gay people or someone that's not anti-gay or what, you know, whatever. Like, so that happened. So they just became this, like this very strong group of friends. How many of us in them? Oh man, hundreds at one point. Yeah. So this is really funny. So this, this is how petty the far right groups were. So in my research, I found like a football, hooligan Ultras like forum. That's where they kind of gather. And they basically said no one is allowed to even speak. And this wasn't Ukraine. And this was all of Europe. Most of the Ultras are far right in Europe, you know. So they said no one's even allowed to speak about Hootshorts Clan because they were so embarrassed that their guys were getting beaten up by anti-fascists. So what they did was they went on a campaign to remove all of like Hootshorts Clan's videos off of YouTube. And when I spoke to Anton, like the main guys, like, have you got footage? Because I couldn't find any. He's like, yeah, we've got footage. There was over 80 videos of them fighting. When I watched the videos, I was like, all right, these guys are real hardcore. You know what I mean? So they were all like on it. And yeah, they had hundreds of members. This is a game which is very funny for the Russian propaganda. Everyone in Ukraine's a Nazi. It's like, no, there's a subculture of Nazis. I'm unfortunately like it's there. Here's a hundred anti-fascists fighting it. You know what I mean? So when the war started, of course, you know, they're anti-fascists. They love their country. They love freedom. And again, they've even said like, one of them really made a great point to me. Look, we don't like the fascists. We don't like them. But if Putin takes over, there will be no anti-fascist, fascist punk, this, that, and the other. There will just be Putin. And that's it. He's like, we at least want the chance to have our own ideology. I think he's right. You know what I mean? I mean, anarchists in Russia get, you know, gulagged completely. It's a similar thing. A lot of the Nazis are backed by the Kremlin government. There's a great documentary called Credit for Murder about how the Kremlin basically funded a load of Nazi groups to commit some murders, to then come down hard on them and whatever. But, you know, like, the idea was they were like, we like these different ideologies. So when the war started, they were like, all right, fuck it. So they hit up the fascist groups. They said, look, there's a bigger problem right now. We don't like you, you don't like us, but our country is being invaded. We will all be killed if, you know, if we don't kind of have a truce. So, you know, all the fascist groups and the anti-fascists said, all right, we've got a truce. No problem. Like, no more fighting each other. No more brother wars. You know what I mean? No more fighting each other. So for now, we put it all on ice and we fight Russia. So Hutsus clan said, okay, so the Hutsus clan, they got their weapons and they went to the front line, but they didn't really want to like, they're like, we don't like them guys. We've got a truce to them. We don't want to fight with them. Unfortunately, some had to because they're putting different units, but they formed their own group. So there's like a load of, there's a whole, there's dozens and dozens of like left-wing fighters right now in Ukraine and they were a part of that. Now they're on the front line. Unfortunately, their commander, Yuri, he died like a month ago. Really sad. Yeah. He was the guy that brought them all together. Killed? Killed, yeah, by Russian forces. Yeah. Yeah. We met him and we were filmed with him. Lovely guy. Cause even when the war started, the fact that you say Kinklichko and they see names, just grabbing our iPhone, going straight to the front line. I've not seen him on the front. I'll be honest. Do you think that's just show then? I think it was. Or were they generally going to... Well, I think if they'd have been, don't worry. I think if like, I think if that is said right, you can go to the front. They'd be like, let's go. I think the government went, I think the government just went, hey, we need people like you to represent us across the world. Yeah. They're not wrong by that. I mean, if Usyk suddenly got killed, there's no one on the boxing stage. Well, there's Lomachenko. But you know what I mean? There's not like that big of a profile to say, hey, remember Ukraine is a war, which actually is a smart move. So I don't, I'm certain Usyk and Klitschko themselves would definitely go there. What's the population of Ukraine? Oh, it's over like 66 million. So start a big fucking... That's huge, man. Yeah. This is what's very funny, right? So this one... Russia 150, 160. Something like that. Yeah. Massive. But it's very... 60 million, I think is the rough thing. But when it's really funny, when the like, the people say, oh, well, you know, Ukraine is a Nazi junta. Everyone there's a Nazi. It's like, no, no, there's a serious problem, a subculture of Nazism. But 73% of 60 million people voted in Zelensky. Zelensky is Jewish. It's the worst Nazi junta that ever existed, if that was true. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, what do you mean? Yeah, but there's some Nazis in the front. I'm like, yeah, I mean, go to any war ever. I've met Nazis in the Middle East. You know what I mean? Like there's a Syrian militia that's neo-Nazi in the Middle East. You know what I mean? It's like, it's unfortunate. There are fucking cancer, but they're everywhere. But essentially, if your village is getting hit, right, imagine someone bombed us right now and some guys running with guns, like, we'll help. I wouldn't be like, hey, wait there. What's your ideology? If they're like, oh, I'm a Nazi. Out you go. I'd be like, fuck it. You're a cum, but whatever. Save me. You know what I mean? Oh, but Bushka, she's sitting there in her house, gets hit with a bomb. She's not asking the lads that come and help her what their ideology is. And unfortunately, that's the thing. They only focus. I'm like, do you know how many different weird ideologies there are in Ukraine? Right now, there are neo-Nazis fighting alongside Chechen militants who are on the same side. You know what I mean? There are like Muslims and anarchists fighting in the same battalion. War is an absolute mess. You know what I mean? That's what it is. And I'm actually surprised that people are surprised. They're like, huh, Nazis and anti-fascists fighting on the same side. I'm like, do you know what a country is? Do you know what I mean? Imagine if war came here. We'd have all different people fighting. I certainly wouldn't be arguing oh, don't hang out with them because if you're protecting your country, you're protecting your country at the end of the day. And like Anton said from all sorts of things, he said, look, we don't like them. We've made a truce to them. We've covered them. We'll see what happens. And to be honest, there's a lot of like even the fascist groups have kind of gone, this is actually what what we thought would be good. This is what it looks like. You know, Russia coming in and fucking chaining people up and executing them in the street. And a lot of them are kind of gone like, maybe not. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's quite interesting. There's a very big ideological shift happening. And hopefully after the end of this war, hopefully some of them will learn. Some of them will become more extreme and worse. But it's the same on the other side. There's a whole battalion of neo-Nazis on the Russian side called Ruschik. Wagner group, literally Wagner, like the main guy has a fucking swastika tattoo, the guy that run it. So it's very weird when you see them like we're in a we're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a We're in a It's Eastern Europe is yeah, but but again Eastern Europe is you can't really weigh it next to England. It's it's it's own Animal, you know me like like Serbia is like its own place Albania like all these crazy You know and you've got like, you know, Eastern European Muslim countries living next to like ultra nationalist right-wing countries Like it's fucking crazy. It's very Interesting like I to be honest. I think like okay. This is bad. That is bad, but I'm not like I don't want everyone I remember my mom used to say to me like oh the way you think what you want everyone to think like that Oh, you want what if everyone did what you did, you know what? I've been in trouble. I do say stupe It's like what if everyone did that and I'm like everyone's not gonna do what I want and that's why life's interesting That's what life is worth living to find out all these different views and different things You know so as well as and it's okay for me to I'm against that like I don't get why these days a lot of people are like Oh, you big lefty. Oh, you don't want to stand for that like no, I don't sorry I don't want to stand I don't want to say it's okay to be a fucking racist You know what I mean? It's like I think that's bad if you think that's good fine, but I hate you we're enemies I don't get I don't think there's anything wrong being a grown man and drawing your line in the sand and saying I stand for this I don't like that, but then that doesn't mean that I'm on the internet like cancel this guy get him up to it Like no because then it's like again how boring, you know like some of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had with people that you're against I'm against. Yeah, but it's like I'm still gonna talk to them Why have I had a conversation someone it's interesting. Yeah, are you really asking me that? When if you're against racism to be something it's fucking for it. Yeah, how fast Still fascinating for the discussion Everybody from both ends I've sat with same and I love the discussion that it's to understand that mindset And it's not a past judgment No, that's why it's not a challenge and shouting screaming. Oh, I believe because yeah, then I wouldn't get the caliber I guess I can get it's just a business at the end of the day Wait, that's why it's with things though as grown adults telling other grown adults off for who they speak to you on their podcast What kind of time are we living in like well? I say it to some people like I'm a grown man like are you telling me off? Are you an adult telling off another adult like that somehow become a normal thing to do run from you don't tell off Other people like that. You know what I mean? I mean sure you do but like okay My grandma can tell me off my mum can tell me off you on the internet can't tell me off But you know what I mean the barrel of this Comments like if I'll post a photo with a drug lord a promoting crime again, and I'm thinking That comment tells me more about you and it does try to portray The character of the person that's on my show that look don't watch don't watch it Exactly like it fuck off. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, there's a lot of things that do say to me Why are we have the problem with on my platform popular front? We've got like a massive Well, we've got over 400,000 people on our Instagram, right? following it and The 90% of the comments just the worst people you've ever come across in your life Well, I we joke we have the worst we reckon we have the worst Instagram comment section on earth I reckon and people like you make email. Why do you allow this? What do you mean? This is the internet Don't read it. Why have you allowed it because that's what you want me to do You're gonna pay for me to curate it and delete every comment. You don't like no fuck off then like it grows Some fucking balls man. Like the life is harsh. You're gonna come across people that are horrible Tough luck. I'm not your mom. I say that I'm not your nanny. I don't like that. This is there I don't like that you're bothering me about it. I don't care. Why are you wasting time again? I say speed I said, have you really just spent an hour reading Instagram comments here You could have watched the film you could have read a book like like there's a real problem with people Wasting time on social media. Don't you know I use it. It's a great tool for this than the other You know, sometimes it's a bit crafty We'll we'll like arguing the comments with other people very rarely But now and then we do it if we need an algorithm boost because then about a bunch of people start commenting all of a sudden Then the post goes up. It's great for us. Who gives a fuck these people are vermin like, you know using for what you can like Not that I don't grow I'm not mean like all our followers I mean the people are saying awful things on on on on Instagram And it's just I just think to people like get a hobby like you'll feel better People with a cartoon characters as a profile picture is the people who's fucking It's always the anonymous. It's already anonymous business as well. You've just got to let them fight and argue I'll do man. Where's the worst was on you've been in? In terms of I mean, it depends how you would define worse. I would probably say like deaths deaths and that yeah I mean, I would say Honestly, like well worst death took a death Syria because like obviously ISIS would do in the craziest shit there But when I was there it was pretty calm, you know, I mean, we didn't see like we weren't there for well We were in Rajabah the Northeast through the Kurdish areas where they control it And it was it was pretty calm there and then we went to Our hole which is the camp where they've got all the like ISIS brides, you know Where Shamima was and all that that was just fucking unreal. That was the weirdest thing I've ever seen They're so confident because they're all in the car Because you know the Kurds like all right, you know, we respect that that's fine But at the time when we were there they were doing loads of stabbings So they would like they were like brush past you and put we had to go everywhere with our guard And they were brushed past you like knock inch and you're like And they just know they're like we can fuck with you, you know, I mean, they're like you can't stop us Not all of them like a lot of them actually kind of went into like a Deregalization program. We're just like we've had enough, you know, I mean, we don't want this We choose the wrong path and the Kurds said, okay, we'll help you get out and a lot of them then get moved To rog camp. That's what happened to Shamima Whether Shamima is really about that or not, I don't know. I think she's a very selfish person You know, I just think she would do whatever is ever good for her But a lot of them we met them and they're like, you know, you can't just be like, oh fuck them They chose their path people choose a lot of wrong parts in life. Don't get me wrong like I think, you know That time will come I'm sure but some of them were like, yeah, we you know Once we got captured we realized like the Kurds or whoever it was we were against like kind of alright Like, you know, I mean, they weren't what we were told or whatever But the worst were the foreigners because they're the foreign volunteers, right? The ones that come from England and the West or wherever they knew what it was like they lived in a different Society don't get me wrong. I think there's serious problems with the way we live in the West I mean just look at the way that young men are killing themselves in this country. There's a reason But they knew what they were going to they got Google they got the internet They got free speech they got they can look at anything they want and then they still chose to go and join ISIS Them are like they're the most evil ones and then ones were still like the most The worst ones in the camp. They're like Biden knew that the woman that was there was running the camp Like a couple weeks before she just got back to work. They they used they got the kids to help them They burst in the office and like beat her up and covered her in petrol and luckily a guy came in just before they lit her up So they were they were like starting their own little water So in a way I'll hold was one of the worst places because you're talking like you just got like ISIS brides there everywhere and they're all you don't know what they're up to and they got weapons everywhere and that and that That was one of the least safe places. I've felt there's okay Mortar round is terrifying and water comes over and you just You just kind of like wait until it lands. I hope it doesn't land on you But like seeing like a crowd of you know women in the car But all in black and you can't see any of them. You don't know if they got weapon You know, they got knife or anything. They're like coming right at you. I was like, I was looking at the guy with the gun Like I mean, I'm not quite that bad, but it was you do you feel like fuck man I might just stab me in my chest I think the week we left the guy go like stabbed in his heart doing the same thing walking around because I had a CIA agent on But he's saying a lot of people in ISIS are forced to be in ISIS whether they threaten their way for Yeah, it's not as if they've all if you volunteer and Fucked them but a lot of people are forced and he doesn't People need to understand that a lot of these fuckers are forced. Well, I interviewed two ISIS guys In Iraq and one was like the media guy for Nineveh province, which is an area in northern Iraq and he was like there You know, like he was running all the media. He was putting out like look what we've done He was filming beheadings all that shit. He He'd been captured so I interviewed him after he's arrested and he was like very hardcore. He's like, yeah I'm ISIS. I do well. They don't call it that because I joined and he was doing like, you know Like one or more we will get you like we'll take her over then we interviewed another guy from the same region He was a farmer. His brother-in-law Basically joined ISIS because he wanted to same as this other guy becomes to the guy and in genuinely you could tell this guy was very I don't say I don't want to be offensive But he's very low like intelligence like you just tell you not knock is a farm But you just tell this guy just nothing was going in and fucking I did basically basically, you know what I mean Like a fucking dumb guy. Yeah, nice guy. I'm sure but dumb as fuck and he's there and like he's like look man He's like I felt like he was being honest. Obviously had an interpreter But you it's weird you remember conversations if they were talking almost when you have a good interpreter He's like look I was on this farm my brother-in-law turns up and he's like look we're starting this new thing We're just taking Mosul your you'll you have to join and it said first. He's like fuck that I'm not joining that like he was he even said so he was like Even like most Muslims in the least he was like I was just chill like I don't know. It's like a smoke I I don't care like you know me drank. He wasn't like very strict or whatever He's like I was just whatever doing my thing and the brother-in-law is like no You're a bad Muslim. He's like for fuck's sake goes away Manages to like kind of push him away and then the next thing he comes again He's like you have to join now like you have to he's like I don't want to kill all his sheep He's like now. What do you got? He's like what the fuck man? You've killed on my sheep. He's like how you gonna make money? He's like what? Long story short he just basically like was like look if you don't join we just have to kill you because you're you're against us And we're coming here, so then he's like fuck it I'll join and even the guys like the Kurdish jailers that like arrested him even said they were like he's telling the truth Like we looked into it, you know, I mean they were like he didn't really have a choice I'm sure he killed or I well, I don't even know if he did he probably just like You know, I mean firing over the line, but I felt really bad for him was a man like what a bad start You know what I mean? Like he was just you're like no teeth You know, I mean he's just like a normal kind of farm guy out there and he just got pushed into it So there's a big difference, you know, I mean, is there any war zones you would like to go to? Yeah, man I mean there's To me it's the older I get I'm more interested in like more underground kind of stories than just the war like the front line is actually Train you've done that completely that No, no, but it's definitely I've come to realize that like it's not always the most interesting place I think you do need to go to get an understanding because there's things you learn the dynamic you learn So let's say you're with a unit and they're all this time the other but when you see them on the front They're like differently and you go like ah, he's actually in charge He might be the lieutenant But this guy is clearly the guy that's in charge and you just learn things about human interactions when they're in combat So I think that's important, but I don't feel the need to be out on a front line for like three weeks I'm like I go there see the fighting get that footage because I think it's important to show There's actual fighting going on here's what's happening and then I'm like let me go and get the rest of the stuff Like I feel like away from the front or just in the midst of the war zone you find a lot more interesting stories now You know, there's only so much you can get with this guy shoots gun now. He's dead. It's sad You know what I mean or what I'm which is sad, but it's like there's only so many People you can keep engaged with that and the reason we do this if you want to be a journalist You want people to watch your stuff right as many as possible So I want to do engaging stories like you know with my platform popular front We'll never be first. We don't have the money to be first, but we're always different. You know what I mean? So everyone was doing okay. We're on the front line. Here's some soldiers. Okay, that's good It's good to see it's important Quentin Somerville from BBC was doing some of the best Ukraine coverage I've seen So there's definitely a place for it But we were like it's like okay Who else is gonna hang out with the anti fascist football hooligan firm that is now a unit fighting Russia? Us, you know, it's like we're gonna do it and the way we made it we made it in a way that was you know There was no judgment a lot of people like I can't believe you made a talk about football hooliganism It didn't condemn the violence Fuck off, shut up about what? What's the condemn? Who cares? It's not my business I don't have you a mother-in-law and say oh that's fucking terrible I'm pretty sure they know Fuck off, you know what? Cancel the job is just to get the story what they do what they do for that People need to stop wanting their journalists to be like moral arbiters, you know Yeah, they still watch it The biggest fucking hitters on Netflix is Drew Crime, Jeffrey Dalma People are in a house fucking watching man shit But anyway, they want to be holier than thou though while they're watching it, right? Yeah, they want to watch it up there on the scene Yeah, I've had porn stars on and people are absolutely slating them As if they've never watched fucking porn, do you know what I mean? Exactly, exactly Also, yeah, that to me I really believe and leave people alone If they're not bothering anyone else like just it's none of your business You know, someone's like I want to be a prostitute If so long as no one's abusing her into it or she's doing it I'm like okay, like they're slipping the moral standards of What fucking moral standards of society? The richest bloke in Britain has just been fucking not even elected Been brought into like decide the lives of the poorest There is no moral standards in this country If there was you'd be out there on the fucking streets But no one's doing nothing Everybody's just diluted with gadgets and fucking get the bad culture Did you ever go to Palestine? Yeah, yeah What was that like? Loved it, loved it Do you get the media T-shirt tops or anything now? Well I wear a press, you do have to wear like I mean I wear a press patch Obviously if you've got the bulletproof vest on which we wear a lot I make sure I've got the blue one because that represents she was pressed And I wear a press patch Because there's a lot of people right now in Ukraine doing really dumb shit Where they're basically dressing up like combatants I know a girl that was wearing camouflage on the front line And was photoring herself with a gun And she's a filmmaker I was like if Russia kills you They can then use that to kill all of us That's an excuse because they can go well Look what the reporters are dressing up like militants Fuck it, we'll just start killing reporters And to be honest They'd have a leg to stand on by saying that When people do dumb shit like that So when reporters do that It pisses me the fuck off I'm like you're a reporter You shouldn't be handling weapons You shouldn't be shooting weapons And you shouldn't be dressing up like fucking action man You know what I mean So we wear the press patch Palestine was great man Jerusalem, East Jerusalem had a good time there Well it's a very hard story It was brutal We were covering the clashes outside Al-Aqsa And I did a story in Israel with Hasidic ravers Which is very fun These guys are hardcore Hasid's with the hair and all that But there was one group called the Rabbi Nachman And all the other Hasid's fucking hate them Whenever there's one group where everyone else hates them I'm like I reckon they're cool I'm not like the cool crowd I'm like misfits and fucking punks And like shy kids and gots And you know I love all that shit I think people are great So there's one guy, the Rabbi Nachman And basically the way they celebrate their beliefs They dance So they drive around in this van They jump out and they fucking dance We turn up at like one of the synagogues And they're like pounding music And all these like hyper-conservative like Hasid's are like fucking bastards Like it's so funny But Palestine was good as well man It's a very fucking sad situation That doesn't get enough coverage for me It doesn't get You know what it doesn't It doesn't But I would say Like I mean if a rock gets thrown in In like Palestine Very quickly people start descending on it A fucking whole invasion happens in Armenia Which happened two months ago No one gives a shit You know what I mean There is like There is a media presence But it doesn't get enough at the same time And it's very I got accused It's funny actually I got accused this morning Ironically Of being a far right white supremacist Because we posted up What was considered to be a pro-Palestine post And essentially we were saying Like a Palestinian resistance group And they said Call them a terrorist group So we never use that word We don't use that word Just because it's a very loaded term Even ISIS We'll say ISIS militants Which is a perfect descriptor Of what they are They're a militant Militant doesn't mean good or bad It's just the descriptor Like you know whatever So we're saying No I was like No we don't use that word Or you're a fucking white supremacist You hate Jews I was like What? No I don't Like what the fuck I was like bro And I said I just put that I said bro that's been like Two weeks for Rabbi Nachman Like I had a great time Like here's some photos of me Hanging out with him Like he's like Oh so you know some Jews I was like What the fuck is going on man And then I realized I was like Hang on this is like a bad faith thing This isn't actually about The situation It doesn't help anyone there And you know And the guy that Clearly he was from America He didn't even live there And he's like When you just step away I said you know what man Have a good day Whatever you think of me is fine It's not true it's all good Whatever carry on Sorry you think this But whatever And then like When I look back at like What we were actually posting I was like yeah We said the right thing You know what I mean I'm not having someone else Dictate the language for me And that is unfortunately Where a lot of the controversy Comes from One person I'm not saying like Palestinians or Israelis Anyone saying like You have to say it like this Bro do you know how Complicated this conflict is It's not that It's not that simple What's the best But what do you think you've done I think the So I think the doc We just did Frontline Hooligan Is one of my favourite bits Because it really How did you get an in Basically man It's really funny So I saw the guy That was kind of like He's kind of the de facto Leader of Hootshoots clan He's like the He speaks good English Anton really nice guy And he runs like A cool kind of Cloving brand in Kiev You know what I mean And I saw him on Instagram And I went to message him And to be like I see what you guys are doing You know you were Like very interesting I would love to come and film You guys And as I went to message him He'd already messaged me But he's in a request You know I've got like A billion requests Whatever we don't look at it And he was basically Like a year before the war He was like Hey man Really love what you guys Are doing Like just basically Sound like I like it Appreciate what you're doing Like it's very cool So I was like Ah fucking hell I was like Oh thanks man I didn't see it He was like Yeah man You guys want to film Kiev And this one guy We didn't need a fixer We just got to Kiev And he's like Where are you He said we're here Come and got us Like in his military van He's like Up you come getting here Like we didn't even Really have to have Accreditation And you know God rest his soul Yuri the commander I realized he made it Happen You know I mean He kind of was like I'll turn the blind eye Just bring this fucking Reporter in You know no restrictions And nothing And in the end We kind of Hutsud's kind of He's gonna get down I don't want to go into this Like woke shit But they're like antifascists They're leftists But they're very much Not woke They're not politically correct At all So they spent fifth I mean one of their guys Actually died Fighting in the street With Nazis But because one of them said Like I think you said the word Retarded Right in the dock And I left in And someone in America Was like Yeah they're antifascists I was like They've spent 15 years Fighting in the streets I mean look at them Their noses They're all scarred up I was like They spent 15 years fighting Against all odds Whilst outnumbered And because he said that word You are now basically saying Everything he stands for Is not important It just sickenes me man But those Those kind of like people Are my kind of people I don't like people that Have to walk on eggshells When they talk or whatever And I realised But they're really They're funny guys They mess about But they're very much Disciplined And they believe in What they believe in You know I respect that I'm like They stand for What you believe And I'm like You know in a time Where people will just Flip-flop I just think it's very You know and they're very They have this It's very funny They have a saying Keiferik Which there's no direct Translation But it's basically like Good vibes Like get buzzed It means yeah Get buzzed Like get high But not high on drugs Like get high Get fun Have a buzz And so all the Units in Ukraine Most of them Their patch Is like Their patch Is this sign Like rock on And it says Keiferik And I was like What is that And they were kind of A bit embarrassed And they were like Oh fuck you know And they explained And I was like That's the best thing I've ever seen That to me Is like sum them up They're guys And when you talk to them They're like We don't want to be at war We don't want to kill We're not like Blood thirsty Don't go around They're like We want to kill Because we want revenge But they're not like We don't want this war And that's really beautiful You know what I mean So for us It was very easy To represent them And after that The other reason I'm proud of the doc Is because So after we've been Screening Doing screenings Of the documentary Like anti-fascist football Who live in Sorry anti-fascist Football clubs So we did one in Clapton We did one in St. Pauli And we did one At Shamrock Rovers In two days in Ireland And we donate All of the ticket sales To them There's a misconception So the aid So America gives Two billion in aid Or ten billion Or whatever it is That doesn't trickle down You know the military Get that first Obviously they need it first But Hutzot's clan And many many many Fighters in Ukraine Are volunteers They weren't military They weren't I mean Anton That runs Hutzot's clan He worked in a nightclub Behind the bar Before the war You know They just opened The gym A Thai boxing gym So now they're fighting So they went Hey we want to defend Our country They get weapons And They get ammunition Other than that They have to borrow Their own vehicles They have to even Some of them have had To provide Their own winter clothing And That's fucked up It is what it is I don't know Whose fault it is I don't know If it's anyone's fault And to be honest War is expensive So you know I don't know If it's anyone's fault But it doesn't trickle down So we've been donating All the money to them And they've been able To buy this That and the other And through that They're anti-fascists Not groups That are on the internet crying Like these groups Don't have internet accounts You know They don't have St. Pauli The altars that we did The event with Certainly are not on Twitter You know what I mean About 50 of them Got arrested last weekend For hooliganism But They Without You know Without talking to anyone Without making a show About it They St. Pauli Specifically In the first week Of the invasion Sent 20 tons of aid Over the border And got it into Ukraine Not just for anti-fascists But for everybody For civilians So that to me I'm like That's beautiful to see That real old school network Is still there And whilst everyone Cries on the internet And is arguing It's like Everyone's like Fuck We're still doing nothing Do you think you'll Change it up a bit With the war stuff Do you think you'll go down A different avenue Any time soon Yes Next year So we're starting A new project It's called Bando magazine So you know A Bando is Abandoned and repurposed For like Illicit activity Or whatever We thought the name worked Because It's kind of like We feel like There's a lot of young people Particularly In certain scenes That I have mentioned Like punks Hooligans Fucking whatever Like shy kids You know People misfits on the out You know On the fringes That have been kind of Abandoned by the media There is no media for them There is no like Here's a really interesting Underground story If there is It's always with the caveat Of these people are bad For a magazine We're trying to get investors To do documentaries But we're starting with A physical magazine first And essentially We're just saying We're reporting from below You know what I mean We're not left We're not right We're from below We're saying For example We got a story About There's like Counterfeit drugs Now In America So you know You had like Oxycodone Then they made a counterfeit Of that And now Some reason It's explained We sent like One of our writers out To spend the week With the people that are using this And we don't want to do it In a way that It's like sensation It's like Whoa drugs We're like Hey look what's destroying The fucking community And who did it The doctors You know what I mean Actually You know what I mean So stuff like that We got another article Like you know Space X Like Elon Musk's thing They had like a secret party Where you had to sign Like an NDA So we sent a guy there And he's like Doesn't give a shit So he broke his NDA He went to like A secret space X party And he wrote about it The weirdest thing They had like Snakes fighting each other Like the You know like Millionaires that are so bored They don't know what else to do So they're just doing the weirdest shit They were like Allocating women to people Like They were like We paid for them You can have one He's like What the fuck Like he really fucked up shit But basically We just want to do stuff like that We want to be like Hey like The world is very interesting If you scratch beneath The very boring Like sanitized version of things And we want to We said we're like Reporting from the curb But without prejudice And without Kind of Telling you if it's bad or not Like without judgment It's like If you think that's bad, fine We don't give a shit We're not We're not here to tell you What you should think So our new project And like Already we've put out stuff And it's a very, very Thank God very quickly People are emailing Like how do we get involved How do we get involved And essentially We want to like Eat VICE's lunch To be honest with you Like VICE has kind of died I think In the way of its influence And we want to do something Completely different VICE to me Was the cool kids That sneer at like The silly person dancing And then like Slightly film it And be like Fuck them We want to be the silly person You know what I mean I think those people are cool People that are not scared To be who they are You know I think there's a real Problem right now with The cool crowds Trying to do irony Oh it's just being ironic I'm like No you're a fucking coward You're basically trying to be ironic Because you're scared That someone will say That won't work And then you can just say We don't like that We want to be like Now let's get back to making shit Because we think it's cool And we think it's important And if someone says That's cringe Alright Like it doesn't matter anymore You know I want to bring back a culture Into a report That used to be there In the early 90s Early 2000s Like the reporters That I used to read The reporters I read To get influence to be a reporter I'm like Let's bring that back You know what I mean Like Evan Wright Like he was a great influence On me He wrote Generation Kill Which is a really good book He also wrote Hellernation Dude out We want to bring back like Counter-culture But counter-culture reporting Where it's not like It's not someone kind of Giggling and sneering We want to just be like Look what's happening What do you think about it It's up to you then You know And I think that's needed Right now And I think a lot of people Are very bored Especially young people Really bored And there's a reason They're zoning out And spending two weeks Watching reality TV Instead of consuming What we want them to consume So we kind of want to be Like hey They've been abandoned It's not their fault They're fucking execs They're like Oh the youth are just not Interested It's your fault They're not interested You didn't give them What they need You thought you did But you just Branded content For three fucking weeks And you know what I mean Went on some woke Tyrate on Twitter And you think That's what people want People are bored of that You know what I mean 2016 is dead So we're trying to bring Back that kind of Counter-culture Kind of You know Brash Kind of No decorum reporting You know what I mean Now the fuck It cares if it fails We tried And someone might be like Haha it failed Okay what did you do You know what I mean Like when we posted it Someone was like This is gonna fail I said what have you created Today You know what I mean Like what did you do If it's nothing Fuck off And if it fails It's okay Like it doesn't matter Like I feel like Don't get me wrong Popular front Like I started it All myself And it's all going well It's going really well Like we You know There's been no Everything I know this I know war I know what I'm doing there With the war I know it back in my hand Maybe I'll try something else And yeah Like it might fail But fuck it man Working people getting Contact All that stuff Instagram, YouTube I think the best way If they go to Our Instagram So that's just At popular dot front You'll see Everything we're about there But to be honest To get a better idea Of it The YouTube is the best Place So YouTube dot com Slash popular front As we spoke about it They censored the fuck on there They're putting everything Behind an age restriction Just because we don't want to I don't I refuse to sanitize the content For the sake of a YouTube algorithm You know what I mean It's just fake I don't go to war To then be like Uh oh I hope Susan At the fucking YouTube is happy with this That's just not right You know and it's not What YouTube was about But yeah YouTube dot com Slash popular front That's the best way Me If you go to my website Jake Hanrahan Where do you go for the future The umbrella You just touched on a few things Ed But what else you want I want to go I want to go to Back to Ukraine And I want to do something That different there again But I also want to go To Armenia report on that To carry on doing the Like under reported stories Back to Palestine I want to do something There with popular front Because we've not done anything As with vice When I did Palestine stuff So that and again Just building up this I want to build like A movement with this Thing I've got this Bando magazine idea Like I want to build a movement Rather than just Like Like media I want it to be like I really want to You know the kind of Like I said the shy kids The misfits I want it to be like Hey come and sit with us You know I want to create That vibe And I hope that's what I can do For anybody that's Maybe watching and Struggle right now Brother Advice would you have For them That's a good question If you don't mind I'd just like to mention Like a very good friend Of mine actually Like committed suicide Something Yeah man thank you It's brutal And it like That is a great question Because that's not enough People aren't asking that Enough I think Advice I would just say I tell this stuff You know like when Like me and my close Friends like I understand that it's hard For like it is hard Still for men to talk About it But like I think You need a small Group of friends The trust I think And like Even if you feel awkward Like it's fine You know what I mean I think like The friends I have Like that I talk to Like I always say to them Like everything's temporary It will get better Like it will Like even if it's It might be worse again But there's always a time When it will blow over Whatever's happening Will happen There's always an option I know it's easier said Than done but Fucking know that It is true You know what I mean I think it's very difficult Sarah and I Especially in this country The cost of living Is just gone crazy Like people that are Living on the Kind of bread line It's just I don't think I don't think people realise Outside of the country Or even outside of Working class communities How bad it is It's unbelievable Like I know people That are using candles Instead because They've got a fucking Prepaid mirror And they can't afford it You know what I mean But I would say again Like everything will pass You know what I mean Everything will pass Like it's just It's hard man But I guess like Struggle makes you tough You know It makes you strong And one thing I just Like said before Is get involved With the gym And combat sports And that's not to be Macho and tough That's because you will Meet the best community You've ever met there Independent combat sports Gyms Like kind of like Definitely saved my life You know what I mean And I think there's some Great communities still Doing stuff There's a great There's actually There's a great Just last thing I will say There's a great group Right now in Manchester Called 0161 Manchester And it's like a Working class solidarity group And they're doing like Amazing stuff And groups like that People helping each other Rather than trying to tell People off and You know whatever I think that will be You know The country will be better off Before we finish up Nine angles I see you talk about Yeah what was that That's his man Yeah Setness and shit It's the It's the one thing So I'm very Everybody goes down That rabbit hole And setness And that I don't like it But yeah But what was The nine angles Kind of thing So the order of nine angles Is It's a group That sounds too good To be true Which is very real So it's A militant Satanic Like Neo-Nazi Cold order Which sounds like The craziest mouthful You've ever heard But I've been I've been like Researching it for Over 10 years Probably now And I'm still a bit Like What is it You know what I mean Essentially they believe In human sacrifice It was started here In Britain And people You know they've Been in the world now Especially in the last five years There was two human sacrifices In Russia last year They actually caught The people for it And it's One of them ones Where You know it sounds too good To be true But I always say to people The British government The last I heard Were actually considering Prescribing them As a terrorist group That's how serious they are You know what I mean They influenced A lot of like Militant Neo-Nazi groups There's a new level Of Neo-Nazism now It's not Jackboots And like Skinheads Excuse me It's like It's like black metal Long hair Like the opposite Like sacrifice Like you know Like burning shit in the woods Like a very It's like what they call it Like esoteric Hitlerism They believe that Hitler Was like a kind of A cult deity Man It sounds I sound insane Talking about it But trust me It is real Like it's a very real thing There was Two murders In this country In the last three years Which were directly linked To a guy Who was order of nine angles And he was influenced By their beliefs And essentially What they believe is There's no such thing as morals If you kind of Remove yourself from right and wrong You can like ascend And be like Almost like A new person Like a new human being You can be like A vulve Into this like I don't know Like evil It sounds like I don't know why you'd want to But they believe in all this power You know Jack That's right That's a very weird way to end it Yeah Talking to me Giving people nightmares Why not I wish you all the best for the future And keep doing amazing work Cheers man Thanks so much