 As you said, Sadhguru, we are moving from the feudal, the medieval system to a modern system and we would like both competence and integrity to be together. You asked for a practical solution, not an ethical answer. Now, we must understand the leadership as a whole in the last two hundred years has been… there has been a metamorphosis. A few centuries ago, religious leadership was the most powerful leadership. Even if a king was in place, religious leaders controlled him. After some time, his power went away and the military leadership took over. We suffered the dogmatism of religious leadership and came down to the tyranny of the military leadership. Then we have moved on in the last hundred and fifty years on this planet to the confoundedness of the democratic leadership. A simple decision that one man can make, five hundred and forty people sit together and they can't make a decision in ten thousand years. What the country needs everybody knows, but they can't take a decision because to make five hundred forty people agree to one idea is going to take a long time. By the time you take a decision is irrelevant most of the time. So I'm not talking about pessimism. I'm saying this confoundedness is there across the planet and nations and planet is suffering for this. Whether it's ecological laws or you know many things, human rights and things, you can't take any decision because various interest groups and things keep pulling and pushing. Now one thing is happening that is now leadership is moving into the hands of economic leaders or the business leaders. In the next fifteen to twenty years you will see economic leadership will become far more important than political leadership. We are heading there clearly. Even now it is already very much there. In many countries it's the businesses which decide what the politicians should do. We have done a different kind of job. We have an economist as a prime minister. The fact is he's not a politician because he can never get elected. He's never been elected. So we are not following democracy because democracy happens by election. Right now we are running the nation by selection because we are trying as we have our own juggard for everything you know. Across the planet this is happening. The power is moving from political leadership to economic leadership. Here economic leadership has not come to that level. So we have put an economist as a leader who is not who has no political capabilities. In a democratic society a political leader means if he stands up a million people should stand up with him. Only then he's a political leader. Otherwise he cannot be. So now it is moving to into the hands of business. Always we have seen business as vested interest. They have the tag of vested interest hanging around their neck. This is a responsibility. I don't know whether they will stand up to it. In the last ten, twelve years I'm constantly in dialogue with economic leaders across the planet and also in this country. Mainly because I see in the next few years the world will be theirs. But they have always been seen as vested interests because these are people who are operating out of personal ambitions. To transform them from personal ambition to a larger vision is the most significant thing we need to do right now because whether you like it or you don't like it the power will shift from political leadership to economic leadership. If you don't shift it consciously it will move from economic leadership to criminalization because a criminal is a businessman personal ambition is what is driving him but he doesn't go by the law that's all the differences and now you see many business people are also not going by the law because law is ambiguous and law is enforced ad hoc it's enforced on me not enforced on you now I think why should I go by the law I will also find some other way to do it this culture is setting in. So if we do not shift this consciously unconscious haphazard shifting will happen naturally criminals will become leaders you should not be surprised people who have proper criminal records if they become prime minister of this country in the next 20 years you should not be surprised if we do not do anything about it now. That's the challenge Sadhguru what do we do that's the precise question I'm asking because what do we do I entirely agree with you because if power goes to businessman that's not going to be the best answer either as I said they're going to be vested interest there while they have to be partners. They have been vested interests about 10 11 years ago in the world economic forum I coined this word called inclusive economics since then this word has been bouncing around in many places even the prime ministers of the nations are talking inclusive economics if a more inclusive way of approaching economics happens a businessman is a good leader because the thing about the businessman is he's flexible he doesn't believe anything he has no qualms about anything if the deal is good he will do it even if he has to do a deal with the devil he will deal with the devil he has no prejudice the deal is good he will do it I'm saying he's the most pragmatic man in the society is the businessman but right now he is driven by his personal ambition to shift him to a larger vision is a challenge which last 12 years we have been actively working on with individual people we have succeeded phenomenally and in the larger context this is something very heartening on one level is today if you meet the businesses of the world across the planet like never before there are many business leaders who are thinking how to do business in such a way that it will do some good to the world it is very important this because a business means business activity means just this if I make some transaction it is beneficial to both of us only if it is beneficial to both of us this activity will be sustained if it's only beneficial for me it will not go on only beneficial for you it'll not go on whether it's marriage or marketplace this is true isn't it if it's only beneficial for one person it is not going to last only if the transaction is beneficial for both it will last so in that context the world moving towards business leadership is a good thing but the business leadership has to mature and evolve which needs to be worked at and of all the types of leadership that I have mentioned religious military democratic and business leaders I have found personally business leaders are the easiest ones to work with because they are willing to listen to something if it makes sense to them religious leaders will not listen to anything because they already got instructions from elsewhere Sadhguru we need to do something fast because the kind of crisis we're getting into in this country it's getting deeper if you see the political parties with all their imperfections they held the country together so far but now even they are breaking apart they are simply breaking down for a party to survive you require ideas and idealism and agenda you require committed leadership which is trusted and you require the promise of power increasingly in most of the major political parties of India all these three are disappearing long ago idealism and agenda have gone leadership for whatever reasons the respect is increasingly diminished and as the slightest threat appears to their political survival suddenly parties are catapulting they're collapsing so unless some quick decisions are made by the political people of the country by the media by the spiritual gurus and by the citizenry at large I'm afraid we're going to have some very tumultuous time if you are looking for a solution you must understand this right now even if it's a political leader what is it that the people of this nation are expecting him to deliver an economic answer isn't it they're not asking him to teach a philosophy they're not asking him to give some teaching they want an economic answer yes or no they want an economic answer okay how can I do my business where can I get a job what can I do this is the question they're asking so when this is the question they're asking the leadership should have the necessary business you know capabilities the leadership in India has no clue what's business you understand they are still think they are law enforcers yes they are on one level yes they are policy makers on another level but they have no clue how to do business is very very important that we strengthen the business leadership and put proper laws at least first thing if we cannot you know rehall or overhaul all the laws on the in the country at least the economic rules what are the ways you can do business what are the ways you cannot do business in this country these laws must be drawn up immediately immediately every day you postpone the well-being of the country is being postponed by years and decades so if you make this and encourage people because in 1996 in India only three percent of the population was employed 97 percent was self-employed so we are essentially entrepreneurs 97 percent of the population survive without jobs we are great entrepreneurs but we are only selling chickadkai half a kilogram of chickadkai this is our enterprise and we spend a whole day one person will spend a whole day selling half a kilogram of chickadkai but do not underestimate this half a kilogram because to sell this half a kilogram he understands where he should stand what he should say what is the current politics what is the latest cinema he knows everything and he quotes things and he markets his chickadkai yes or no so i'm saying there is this capability in the country but we are trying to module now an economic model for whatever reasons i'm not going into the philosophy of it the communistic way of existence the socialist way of existence has collapsed as an ideal it's a fantastic thing that everybody needs by lives by his need not by his greed is a fantastic idea but it did not work so now we have chosen a market economy once you have market economy you must understand that greed is good if people don't have hunger ambition market economy will collapse our problem right now in this country is we say this is a market economy if somebody does well we'll say see he's so greedy this is not going to work somebody wants to gold paint himself and walk on the street for me personally it may be vulgar but he likes to gold paint himself and walk on the street that's his problem but that is allowed in a market economy you understand we try to control these models now you kill the ambition if you kill the ambition you kill the market so we must decide are we going for market economy or are we going for socialist way of living if we take steps in market there is no time or no opportunity to look back and say oh that would be nice there's no such thing both the systems have their problems greed is not the good way to structure a society but right now the whole world is being structured that way the only way you can make greed productive is proper economic loss and unbridled opportunity for people to do business for that we need a businessman leading the nation Sadhguru, in your interactions with the business leaders have you seen the inclination to accept this responsibility to take up this challenge to risk failure and to do whatever it takes in a very big way right now in the world that's very good news internationally it is very true but in India in the country because my universe now is India at this point of time not to see no that is the thing once you're ruled by business national boundaries become irrelevant this happened in 2007 or eight I was at Dawes this is Pakistani breakfast Musharraf general Musharraf was speaking the hall was packed everybody wanted to hear what's going what is going to talk I also got invited I went and he spoke and spoke and spoke people are looking at these are all business people they're looking at okay what are you economic policies can we do business in your country or no that's all they want to know but this man went on saying how he knows how he's a great leader and how his leadership did this and that and he was giving leadership lessons to everybody every one of them is a leader by himself but he was giving leadership lessons and the whole time two hour time he spent one and a half hours and then there was no time left so he said only one question this is supposed to be an interactive session but he did all the talking then I raised my hand because I had already met him previously he said okay you so I stood up and asked him see right now India and Pakistan both of them we are actually not developed countries we like to call ourselves developing because we're developing for too long forever if you're developing you're not a developing country okay if you're developing somewhere you must become developed I said this is happening for too long the reason is one major reason is both the nations are spending enormous amount of money on this defense and nonsense if India and Pakistan had no these issues both the countries probably would have prospered by now but somehow we couldn't keep that nonsense down we fought all these years just three wars are not the thing preparing for the war is a horribly expensive process I said see you don't expect the religious leaders in your country and our country to come to any agreement it's a waste of time doing all these interfaith meetings and things anyway they will pretend and go home and they will preach their own thing okay two military leaders cannot agree because we're pointing guns at each other we are trained to shoot political leaders cannot agree because that will make them lose elections but a business person has no issue if there is a good deal in Pakistan every Indian businessman will go and do deals in Pakistan if there is a bridge to be built for a one million dollar bridge they're offering two million dollars half of Hyderabad will go there so I said see the first thing is let's open up the business if you open up the business if daily transactions are happening my people are on that side your people on this side my money there your money here I wouldn't want to bomb your country you wouldn't want to bomb my country likely the speaking to happen now this transaction business relationship in India and Pakistan because national borders will go away that is very important on the longer run it is very important national borders get diluted that is when armies will come down that is when the potential of fighting on the planet will go down that is when development will happen indiscriminately according to capability not according to national identity isn't it so this transaction should happen and he just previous day he was talking about how he's for peace and how he's looking for this and that looking for support and money but he forgot all that and he burst out said how can we do business you know my dear friend somebody mentioned name he died in my arms in the war I named my son after him because of that we have spilled blood we have lost people how can we do business we cannot do business international press was amazed that this man just came out and said we cannot do business with each other being the head of a nation but if we started doing business don't do any of these all these parlays which are very expensive politicians meeting anyway it's a foregone conclusion it's not going to go anywhere do business as much business as possible you will see people will forget who the hell is a Pakistani who's an Indian I think that's very insightful Sadhguru I think what you initiated is now bearing fruit because I think India and Pakistan are now willing to do business at last Sadhguru before we open to the floor I limit to a couple of inquiries we have as you often said great technology vast resources today better than ever before in any other generation but as a society as a country we seem to be very poor in organization oh you don't talk about that I'll give two specific illustrations to make this point so that that line of inquiry can be pursued further Finland the Chinese Scandinavian country tiny in terms of population at least it had every single birth and death registered 500 years ago it's a genetic it's a heaven for genetic research today even today in India in any city let alone small towns we cannot claim that every birth and death is registered it doesn't cost money it's not a technological issue organization but a more important example every year roughly about 200 thousand children are born in this country with preventable congenital abnormalities birth defects that could have been prevented largely because of two reasons one is a viral disease called rubella if only every girl child before pregnancy or before marriage is given that vaccination there's a fully effective vaccine thousands of these serious deformities should have been prevented it's not costly at all and the second is consanguineous marriages in south India you know we have this very sorry tradition of marrying cousins without realizing the consequences in terms of genetic we don't want our property to go to somebody else I know but if only we had organization to make people aware it's not even a question of money if only efforts are made in the direction vast amount of good can be done so how do you promote outside of business business is an area where organizations are improving but outside of business except Isha Foundation and a few organizations very few are actually able to organize well to be able to deliver exceptional outcomes what can be done to really promote specific well-directed action based on organization somewhere can I say something somewhere in your mind structure and in the minds of many many many Indians particularly middle class Indians business is still a bad word this must go I'm saying even delivering the vaccine can be delivered by a business it will be developed delivered much more efficiently properly and if they don't deliver it properly you can ask them you can demand that you want it because you paid for it or somebody paid for it right now because it's a government agency or it's a social organization whether it's Isha Foundation or somebody else because we are delivering it as charity or a service people cannot demand why have you not done this if it was business they would have asked why have you not done this otherwise we want to business with you we'll do business with somebody else we'll buy the vaccine from somebody not from you so business is not a bad word social organizations like ours and so many others have become necessity necessity because one thing is administration is not able to perform the duties that it was supposed to perform like health education nourishment ecology this is not my business you know like I went I went somewhere and this big professor from Harvard University comes in oh you are that amazing tree planter I said no I'm not a tree planter he said no you planted so many milliliters yes I did but I'm not a tree planter my work is to make people blossom not to plant trees the administration should have planted the trees they didn't plant so when I have time I'm planting so planting a tree building a school building a hospital is actually not my business it should not be if the nation is functional these are things the administration should do if it is that kind of medicine if there is that kind of a Medicare system otherwise businesses should do now first thing if you say business in health is you will say they will exploit they will charge do you know how much this hospital is charging that hospital is charging it's all true but now if 10 hospitals like that came market demand and supply would bring it down to reasonable levels right now there's only one good one so they're charging astronomical prizes if 10 like this came up you would choose where to go where it's sensible to go isn't it and proper loss to see that they don't misuse and exploit this capability so business is not a bad word social organizations can fill in the gap for some time they can never be a total solution I'm saying he's a foundation he's not a solution for all the problems of this nation if thousand organizations like this come up we function very efficiently with absolute dedication but still I'm saying this is not a solution this is only a patchwork this is only a band-aid for a cancer the problem is so huge we do little little things and people think you're doing great things I just tell them what is a great thing the problem is so big and you do little thing and it's a great thing why because nothing has been done because nothing has been done the little thing is a great thing isn't it however dedicated we are however capable we are social organizations are not the ultimate solution for nations problems once we have taken to market economy we should allow the market and the forces of the market to function and the market should be guided by appropriate loss so that it doesn't lead to too much exploitation that is the only way because we have chosen market economy we cannot go back to socialistic ways of functioning on one level market economy and the other level it'll lead to confusion right now that is what is happening in Indian minds they confused they don't know whether to make profit or to make charity I'm saying let the business be structured in such a way if I do business naturally everybody must benefit this is the rule of law this is the role of law that law should be structured in such a way the loss of business should be structured in such a way if I do business everybody around should be benefited not because of my charity because of the law that's that's wonderful sattguru that market principles must be applied and competition and choice must be the cornerstone even in social socially productive work of this kind I don't trust people's morality I don't trust people's ethics I've seen enough of it and I know in how many ways it can be subverted that's why I'm saying the law must be clear and law must be enforced and that's a powerful message sattguru one last question before we leave it to the floor sattguru we're all proud of our own culture tradition or history or philosophy each country is proud of its own past we probably have greater claim to some exceptional accomplishments as a society and civilization but there are two problems that are recurring in the modern context the first is even in the minds of people of our background sitting here otherwise enlightened and liberal there is this moral neutrality to inequality by birth while we treat people who don't have an opportunity because of circumstances because of poverty with a lot of kindness with a lot of compassion we do not realize that those children are untitled to the same opportunity that my child is entitled to it's it's simply alien it appears to me to our culture unless a very strong message goes consistently unless everybody is allowed to rise everybody will fall eventually the second deficit appears to be more or less as a corollary of this a trust deficit and incapacity to recognize that there is a common fate binding all of us politicians blaming bureaucrats bureaucrats blaming judges judges and politicians and bureaucrats together blaming media all of them blaming somebody else this is a blame throwing and treating the other fellow as a nuisance and not being able to look at the bigger whole and our own role in making the bigger things happen seems to be a very special Indian problem what do you advocate Sadhguru to address these two challenges say we need to understand India the problem is we are trying to look at India through a western education window right now all the educated Indians somewhere there is one window of western education the rest of it is total chaos and we like chaos we are a colorful mess as long as you're not trying to work with somebody their Indians are fine because everybody is a genius by himself but you can't organize a genius and get results by themselves they're good you try to put them together this is a big problem so what India is is why it is like this is I already mentioned this in passing one thing is India does not have beliefs and India has never had moral code see every other nation has strict moral code people feel guilty about certain things an Indian can just do just about anything very happily I have had the misfortune of sometimes closely interacting with some very famously corrupt people right now in the country when I really looked at them closely what I saw was they did not even think they're doing something wrong so your ideas of morality ethics they're shocked that you're saying you're complaining after all I become a minister shouldn't I make some money what are you talking I'm saying they're not even I mean they're surprised that you people are complaining because India is not has never had a moral code but still people remained in a certain way because there was a spiritual ethos people told you everything is your karma whatever you do there will be a consequence and people stirred up certain other dimensions within you every generation had people who would stir up this possibility of consciousness within you we operated out of continuous stirring up of consciousness never morality now we have come to a place where in the last few hundred years or few generations nobody has come I wouldn't say nobody not enough people have come to stir up consciousness and consciousness has gone low no morality we are between the two cultures we are falling in the gap we've lost our way of keeping ourselves in check but we still cannot take on western way of strict morality and we are falling in the gap in between that's where we are see right now it's seriously happening like you said yesterday's yesterday election results and everywhere else whether it's Bengal or UP or Tamil Nadu or wherever else gradually in India there is no party which you can call as national party all regional parties as regional parties becoming more and more powerful and they sweep the state and natural national parties are completely routed I'm not trying to pitch for them because there is nothing to defend them okay but whichever way whatever they may be for the long-term interest of the nation it's very important one two or three national parties must become strong otherwise after 25 to 50 years we will wonder why are we one nation suddenly one chief minister will become prime minister a chief minister who is chief minister for 10 years and frustrated with his chief ministership wants to become a prime minister when he sees there is no other way to become a prime minister there he will become a prime minister here yes and already some serious attempts in this direction have been made in the past in certain states if we value India as a nation it's very important that we must strengthen the national parties how to join these parties both are a mess that is a real problem what to do but what we need to understand is there is people there are parties and there is administration in Indian mind these three things are distinctly separate this distinction should go there is no people party and administration there is people people and people this is what a democracy means people who are sitting here in this chair tomorrow could be walking the street campaigning for a party day after tomorrow they could be in that chair this is what democracy means that you are here today tomorrow you could be there so this distinction has to go these are all easier said than done to remove these distinctions to make people understand because how many people can you even talk to in this country because you know only two languages yes maybe i know three languages but how many people will you speak there are sixteen twenty four languages in the country who are you going to speak who are you going to leave out so there are these issues there are these issues but which is very very important however corrupt however nonsensical however rubbish it is it is important to strengthen two or three national parties otherwise there will be no India after fifty years there will be many countries. Sadguru I actually entirely agree with you and Loksakta and I have been always articulating the need to strengthen national parties the tragedies they are their worst enemies so we are required to transform politics that's why I was so repeatedly impleading I don't blame you at all I wouldn't like to join any national party because we know what's happening and the way it's conducted so how that is the reality of our nation but unless we transform them unless that's the reason why I'm pushing you today unless the pressure comes from the spiritual gurus from the civil society from media that the need of the hour is not really replacing one with the other but actual transformation of the nature of politics and building a framework for the unity of India I entirely agree with you. I am privately not publicly not private not announcing to people whatever it giving them that privacy privately we are slowly trying to transform many political leaders in the country we have successfully worked with a few people others are slowly coming in but it's still a long process it's not something that will happen overnight an India a country like India cannot be turned around overnight if we work as a generation of people maybe we'll leave a little better country for the next generation that's where we need to look at the most significant thing right now in the nation is people have come to a place where they're willing to give up their caste creed ideology everything for economic well-being this may be described as greed by certain people I see it as a possibility there is only one ethos everybody wants to do economically well this is an opportunity to transform the nation when they're economically down you ask them to leave their religion and come beyond that you ask them to leave their caste and creed and come beyond that they will not come because that net is a security belonging to a certain caste belonging to a certain religion belonging to a certain community has been their security for centuries for thousands of years suddenly you ask them to come out they won't come only if you throw up a big opportunity and a dream out there people will crawl out of those nets risking their life so economic opportunity is the most important thing right now personally it leaves this taste in my mouth to go on talking and pitching for economic possibilities because that's not going to transform human life but right now if nation has to crawl out of the pit social economic and political pit it is in right now I see the only solution is economic development should happen it'll come at various costs will be there there will be a price to pay for that but we must pay the price otherwise we'll stagnate where we are. Sadguru that practical wisdom actually is music to my ears unless we have such underlining focus on economic growth and rapid economic growth I entirely agree both political and social problems will only be exacerbated I think we should give an opportunity to the floor to raise I'm sure far more interesting questions how do we find this balance the balance between this base need and this high need of spirituality because I think that in the we are in the middle and what we want is a ease in life in this democracy so that we can all become seekers and concentrate on seeking as opposed to concentrating on surviving that's the question the question is for him right no it's for you Sadguru the balance is about you we're all imbalanced people now I will simplify this how do I bring a balance between right now I am hungry I am right now I am hungry how to fill this and how to attain to the highest goal whatever that is mukti or liberation or how to fill my belly and how to meditate how to make these two things happen you are addressing it as if they're two separate things do not address it as two separate things you are a human being you are a human being who's come with both the needs but when you're hungry if I ask you to meditate you are not going to meditate will you and I will not ask you to meditate because I think when a man is hungry asking him to meditate is vulgar it's an obscenity to when somebody is hungry you talk to him about mukti I think it's obscene I will not do such a thing if he's hungry we must see how first the food should happen then only we can talk about another dimension so do not look at it as two separate things but physical need is an urgent need meditation you could postpone it to tomorrow dinner you must have today isn't it so economics is the need right now because half the population has still not eaten properly yet you can talk meditation only to those who have eaten well not to those who have not eaten well we don't do such things that is why isha has a spiritual aspect and a social aspect I don't like to do the social thing if that ministration has taken care of all the social needs I would like to do just the spiritual part but if I do just the spiritual part I will leave out half the population so I am doing the social thing with them so do not separate it if you your stomach becomes full immediately the other need will naturally come up within you I don't have to tell you you meditate you will start looking what do I need to fulfill my life because this is the nature of a human being if you came here as some other creature stomach full life settled once you come as a human being stomach empty only one problem stomach full 100 problems so once your stomach becomes full you will seek other things you don't have to be told you will seek anyway then other things will come anyway that's why we are talking so much about economics right now I think there is a hint from Sadhguru that we should wind up because he's hungry who is next who is next yes in politics you you said you require a business outlook leaders that that perhaps it means like instead of people who share hundred rupees you want people to make hundred to thousand rupees and share five hundred rupees that that's that's what no I'm not talking about sharing see he said he said politicians have spent some five hundred crore something I said no they have invested so but the problem is it is a business but it's an illegal business there is no law monitoring it rigidly enough to make it a legal business now in United States of America right now Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are going around the country raising millions of dollars for their election but it's a legal business if he takes one dollar more illegally he'll go to prison we just have to do that isn't it right guru coming to my question it's like there's been this bipolar elections I went to a camp went to the campaign because you know motivated to arrive at the question quickly yeah because not because I am hungry because so many hands are going up that there has to be a background formed for the question because otherwise it's difficult to understand no we are capable of understanding the context the question if I have to put in a nutshell then how an intellectual and a person with a business outlook can stand for elections and win this culture of economics has still not come we are in still a culture of charity we have to bring a culture of economics because you chose in a market economy see this is not a simple decision to make for the builders of this nation they chose a socialistic economy because it was more endearing to think in terms of let's share let's do things better you know it's not about you versus me let us do this but it did not work as an idea it's a great idea but it's an idea that's failed because humanity is not ready for such a big idea right now we have come to a much grosser idea okay market economy is a gross idea very gross way of existence but it's working better than the very refined idea I'm interested in making it work because ideals on an empty stomach means nothing I know 400 million people in this country have not eaten one good meal in the last 10 days probably so when this is our condition ideals are a taboo I'm saying this to him ideals are a taboo nobody can have the luxury of having ideals we just have to do what's needed after everybody has eaten then we can talk what is our ideal what is our philosophy what is our ethic first people have to eat because eating cannot be postponed to tomorrow philosophy can be postponed to tomorrow meditation can be postponed to tomorrow eating cannot be postponed to tomorrow it has to happen now isn't it so for this once we have chosen economy our economic model is market economy please strengthen the market and nothing else but the market people tell me what is this you say you're a spiritual leader but you're charging for this I said I will charge somebody who comes who cannot pay I will do something else but I want you to understand if you want something delivered it costs whether you pay for it or somebody else pays for it it costs you gotten used to somebody else paying for it that is why you don't know how to make use of anything that's offered to you if you were paying for it you would make use of it well isn't it yes or no right now rice is free dal is free television is free gas is free you think you will destroy the work work culture of this nation completely in Tamil Nadu today so many things are free for for essentially for election reasons and populistic democracy that we are doing right now yes when somebody doesn't have anything you give him something it's great but instead of giving something even if it causes suffering if you create opportunities where everybody could make money and have the necessary power to buy it it would be better because today they started from Andhra Pradesh that's why I'm telling you rice came at one rupee or ten rupee rice if you give it at one rupee who is paying the nine rupees who's asking this question I'm saying you have chosen a market economy you cannot do this it may sound cruel but there are poor people if the first thing is you are enjoying poverty this is the biggest problem religious people enjoy poverty because they want somebody to serve and go to heaven now businessman does not enjoy poverty he want everybody to have purchasing power because otherwise he cannot run his business I think three powerful messages are coming from you Swamiji today the first order of priorities rule of law enforcement of rules and laws and public order the second order of priorities unity of India third is economic growth at any cost I think that's the take home right now till everybody eats economic growth at any cost after that we can control the cost I'm proud to say I voted for Lok Sattah before I pose this question I wanted to say this I don't know there is any else any other party in the country like this so I'm very happy for that my question is like this like me there are a lot of people in this state first I'm trying to talk about my state in this state but why what the system is hindering why we are not able to win more seats right now we just have one legislative so why can't we have JP as the chief minister or anybody like JP being chief minister so what is stopping us so what's Sadhguru's message to the people here because everybody's here they wanted to do something for the society but I am sure like me I am not doing anything I just think about it I do nothing so like me I guess there are 50% of the people here so what the message we should get and how we get that education and what we have to do we are ready to do anything I am happy the way India is progressing the media the RTI everything is very good so the question is the simple finishing thing we have to get that so what is the message from you so that we all go to streets and do something for the country thank you Sadhguru before you intervene no it's you who has to answer no he he wanted an answer from you answers are from you questions are from us this is an often asked question it's not about this part here that that ethical politics is not sustainable in India that what we all desire or we claim to desire is not winnable in India is a proven proposition I can now say with some degree of confidence across the country the challenge is how to reverse that that's the anguish of that young man Sadhguru you already mentioned the answer to give the answer earlier we all forget the initial conditions of our democracy because we take the normative democratic institutions and the constitution we think it should operate the way it operates in other countries after certain degree of maturity we have not created the initial conditions and Sadhguru is repeatedly emphasized in that even today the voters have no notion that they're electing a representative they think they're electing a monarch and once elected he somehow will deliver we don't care how no rules no laws no procedure get it done somehow or other and that's not merely the failing of the poor people it is the failing of our class Sadhguru it is the failing of the middle classes it's the failing of the educated that's the general perception the second is Sadhguru we created an impossible situation where nothing happens without somebody's intervention and there is perpetual dissatisfaction because even if the elected person wants to deliver he cannot fulfill the expectations and therefore money has become the currency of vote getting and now in the competition to get the votes in our kind of electoral system where one vote more means you win one vote less means you lose look at Tamil Nadu DMK DMK how they alternate so dramatically there is a desperation and a competitive pressure to buy the votes and that's why today you see in some constituencies a candidate spending 20 to 30 crores in an assembly election and that's the reason why I have been arguing for you you're not getting investing okay yes you're right investing as a business proposition he's not throwing it away he's absolutely absolutely a straightforward business proposition in anticipation of multiple returns there's no question about it there are two things and that's the reason why I was urging Sadhguru to take up this issue one is we have to bring the what is the definition of the community is a challenge but whatever it means localized power so that citizens are empowered and they understand the limitations of power today because they have no power they have no responsibility either localized power and make them master so their own resources but hold a danda so that things don't go beyond a point and the second is a bigger thing at the national level unless we push the political parties the big national parties Sadhguru in the large states of India UP, Bihar, Bengal, now Andhra Pradesh, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu the six largest states of India the two grand national parties of this country are more or less decimated Andhra Pradesh now it's pretty close to that other party was never there in Maharashtra both are playing second fiddle elsewhere they are not a factor which is a unique feature we are thinking it's normal it's absolutely unnatural these parties once they fall below a certain threshold they're disappearing in state after state with the recent fragmentation this lonely get worse now is the time for us to make them realize that there's a different way of electing our representatives where this kind of money pressure is not there one possibility is with certain checks and balances proportionality based system another at least at the state level is directly elected in the leader there are models but we have to now build a consensus and make them realize meanwhile no matter how many hardships we have once the goal is there we have to keep on fighting I don't see a short-term alternative unless the Sadhguru and many others they use all their formidable spiritual and temporal influence and authority to move the country in the direction that we all desire Sadhguru. In that effort last four years have been striving to put all the spiritual leaders on one platform it's called the confederation it's even tougher than NGO leaders I thought getting them together confederation of spiritual indigenous spiritual moments we're calling it as guru sanghamam putting all the gurus together I don't want to talk to you about my experience okay but we have managed for the first time this year in the month of April 123 gurus prominent ones we all met the last four years have been trying to educate them we can simply meet without an agenda there is no need what is the agenda what will what shall we do shall we take paad yatra shall we fast shall we eat this the question I said no we will just be together maybe share a lunch just be together just because each one of you each one of us have millions of people just coming together is a major event let's come together the power of being together you not understanding so we are doing that but that is still a long way to become a force by itself as a guiding force because each one of them will tend to take or jump to some party or the other I am trying to keep them away from any party let it just be a few things that needs to happen in the nation rather than pitching this party or that party because once again the same thing will happen but for you a man of your integrity you must jump into a party which is which you think is of a lesser evil but evil whichever is a lesser evil you must jump into that because this young man he feels proud I voted for loksatta but his pride is just empty pride which will go waste which will not build a nation your integrity your ethic your moral your intentions your intellect wanting to do something all this will go waste unless you have the legs and the hands to do it it should not go waste it should not go waste because because I want you to understand this in in Indian minds especially in the Indian mind and very much in the American mind people have put these capsules okay this is BJP this is congress this is political this is non-political this is administration there is no such thing in a democracy democracy is a continuous metaphor metamorphosis the man who is a nobody tomorrow morning he can become be sitting in the parliament this is the possibility and this is the beauty of democracy you will destroy the beauty of that by getting identified with something or the other and you will destroy the power of that by getting identified so if you have integrity if you have capability if you have competence which can make a difference for the people of this country it's most important you get into your place where you will be most effective not just enjoy this satisfaction I voted for integrity no you voted for integrity but against India you vote for India you don't vote for integrity you don't vote for world values you don't vote for morality you vote for India what's good for this country that is what you vote for Sadhguru I agree with the broader point that all of us are political politics is not a dirty thing and I'm glad that you're making that point as a spiritual leader unless we recognize that we're all in politics you like it or not in some form or the other doesn't mean that you contest doesn't mean that you remember your political party doesn't mean that you're aspire for power but you actually aspire change you must aspire for power because if you don't aspire for power I understand that you have no intention of doing anything for this country but that I agree that there's even more music to my ears but I'm not trying to push them because no why why I'm speaking like this is in Indian minds particularly middle-class minds people who can read newspapers and watch televisions in these people minds business is a bad word power is a bad word no these are not bad words these have gotten into bad hands that is the problem these are good things that's a terrific message that group who has the microphone my problem is I have a longing to do something but all my energy and my time is expended to satisfy my definition of my personal and my family well-being how do I break my vicious cycle and have a seeking a solution thank you this is a satsang question this is not a as Jaiprakash already said your well-being is not independent of the social well-being your well-being is not independent of the national well-being your well-being is not independent of the global well-being if you understand this you will operate more sensibly I'm delighted Sadhguru if I may just add you know we should do something beyond what appears to be immediately necessary for ourselves not because we are very charitable or moral but because the mosquito in the neighborhood which has bitten an arch in there will enter your home no matter how wealthy you are no matter how successful they're completely meshed their house but you still have to open the door you can't impress yourself forever and it will bite you and transmit the dengue virus to your child because mosquitoes are truly socialist Sadhguru is talking about how terrible socialism has damaged socialism than to us but mosquitoes are truly socialist they do not respect rank or tradition or power we need it for ourselves not because of a higher core I think that's the best I can tell you a way where mosquitoes will not be interested in you really if you take off salt from your diet completely mosquitoes will not be interested in biting you many may believe that there's a worse life than having mosquitoes who has the microphone why don't you sit with the the financial minister or prime minister and ask for some amount of money to locate the right education schools like Isha whatever it may be to educate the right people the education to the people why don't you sit with the prime minister to look at to look at the right schools over all over the India so because you're saying this is really need economy or political whatever it may be if you are right if your experience is right why don't you do that this is my question you're asking sadguru yes sadguru so for your information if you do not already know there is nothing much the prime minister can do right now whoever can do anyway whoever can do why don't we talk to them as a part of this almost 15 years ago I went because our work was in rural India I went to meet the rural development minister in the center you're a very wonderful man I found a lot of politicians on a personal level they were wonderful people but they've become victims of their own making and situation also so he was very wonderful he took me into the you know we met him in the parliament building he took me into this rural development ministry office then he told me so enthusiastically he told me all the schemes that they have I sat there for three days looking at all the schemes that were relevant to make a difference in rural India these are extremely well thought out schemes whoever made these things thought through everything made fantastic plans you must have access to this as an IS officer at one time very I was surprised that somebody has been doing phenomenal work they've done great work and then I was looking at all this again I went and sat with the minister this is fantastic when is this going to happen he said you know last year we had fourteen thousand crores left unused because nobody's coming forward to do this fantastic schemes there is a budget you can't ask for anything more we know what's a solution we have worked out the solution in entire detail and there is budget but nobody is there to do it this is the country you are living in even if the prime minister has the intention he cannot do much right now because there is a whole system so instead of going on trying to revive a system system which is cancer ridden to deliver goods to the people I was I was diced with some local ministers in Tamil Nadu and somebody gave me information may information I said out of every rupee that is spent in the government schemes only twelve paisa reaches the project on the way this much goes away the minister who's sitting next to me I said Sadguru no not twelve paisa it's only four paisa I said well you must be in the know and I corrected myself no not twelve paisa only four paisa out of a rupee is reaching the project ninety six paisa gets lost somewhere on the way if four paisa got lost we can say okay let's go on let's revive the system and make it happen if only four paisa is being delivered that is not even a system isn't it even if you throw it in the air four paisa will fall in your pocket you don't need a system for this if only four percent is reaching it you cannot call it a system that is why I'm going on talking business business business is because businesses can deliver when we say business we are talking about a completely new system and right now the whole country and the world is fired up to be economically successful this is the right time to change the things as many things as possible as many services as possible including giving birth certificate give it to private agencies okay put stringent laws if they subvert something else will happen you will see they will come looking where a baby is born and give birth certificate yes or no they will come looking and give it if there are 10 agencies in this town they will be a competition they will be looking when will you have birth in your house the moment you're pregnant they will already book you up yes or no so I am talking about changing the entire system because there is a point to which you can repair something you know you bought your maruti car in 2000 it's 12 years you've used it extensively but still you can repair you bought your ambassador car in 1950 it is better either you buy a bicycle or walk or if you can afford buy a new car you can't go on fixing it because fixing it becomes more expensive than putting up a new system this system that we're talking about the economic module which we have already chosen market economy doesn't cost to establish the system there is no cost to the establishment you just have to make the loss and leave it to the people right from there from that village itself answers will come right now everybody is looking to Delhi for answers schemes and schemes they got all the answers which can't be delivered sadhu I think we'll take the last two questions so that we understood that there should be an economist or a businessman should be a leader right that is what we are trying to understand here now my question is no no I'm not only talking about a businessman becoming a leader I'm talking about business moving into the leadership there's a difference between the two for example you said I mean Guruji you said that any businessman he won't have prejudice or he might not have any morals or I don't know what I think is any businessman will definitely have his own ethics and morals he would be running his own business no no no I'm telling I do not trust anybody's ethics and morals nation doesn't have the patience to check your ethics and morals we need laws which are enforceable 100 percent enforceable we're this is the problem Indian this is a serious Indian problem what you're saying this is the problem we go on talking about morality we do go on talking about charity sharing leave this it's not worked that is socialism it's not worked isn't it it worked only when there was strong bonding in communities among their own caste among their own creeds they supported each other they shared and they did things that bonding is gone now that system will not work sadhu his question is for everybody's hearing can 19th century politics and 21st century economy coexist unless one of them being compromised it is very wrong to think we are doing 19th century politics we are doing 20th century politics you are just having a taste of 21st century politics and it's leaving a distaste in our maths so this is 21st century politics never before anybody had ever imagined for an assembly seat somebody is going to spend 25 crores or 50 crores is an unimaginable thing even 10 years ago so it is purely 21st century politics not 19th century politics the question is what of your views on Anna Hazare Sadhu Guru he asked you I'll certainly give my views if they ask me but Sadhu Guru you must respond my interest is not Anna Hazare my interest is nation I am not interested in Anna Hazare I'm not interested in Indira Gandhi I'm not interested in Narendra Modi I am interested in this country country means people so I went to Hazare's meeting when he was fasting and I also spoke there and supported them in so many ways I never see Anna Hazare as a solution I don't but it is very significant that somebody is playing that role of bringing that awareness firing up the whole nation towards a cause there is no question of the significance of his role but at the same time we should not overplay this role because this Jan Lokpal whatever we are talking about you can pick a hundred holes in it you know you want corruption to go you want people's awareness to come to it that's perfect no question but now if you bring a law which supersedes every other law you will have big problems and how will you populate these positions which will enforce these laws if already all the criminal procedures courts that you have is being enforced by people who are corrupt and misusing it in a thousand different ways how do you know tomorrow the Lokpal where do you import them from I'm asking once again everybody will try to get into Lokpal now everybody is trying to get into the parliament everybody is trying to get into the you know whatever the system now once you see this is the power if he's saying in Andhra Pradesh 42 elected representatives is it or people who stood for election who are criminals or they got elected most of them were elected or okay so forty two people in one assembly are people with established crime behind them tomorrow after ten years they will all understand Lokpal is the place to be parliament is not the place to be and they will all enter that and with such sweeping powers it will become a very dangerous force but I don't believe what he is doing is right but it is appropriate right now it is needed right now we need to shake up people and tell them if you don't do this we're going to hang you somebody needs to do this and he's doing that heads off to him he's managed to somehow but it's a limited role he and people around him must understand it's a limited role if you stretch it beyond that that will become the problem we have reached a time in our nation where the question is not about who is corrupt the question is about who is not corrupt unfortunately if the question was who is corrupt it would be easy to fix it the question is who is not corrupt one Jayaprakash Narayan is a signing example it is it is fortunate that we are sitting with him here but it's unfortunate it's very unfortunate that somebody who is not corrupt is so important for us because millions of them should have been not corrupt but now we've brought this nation in sixty five years sixty five years ago people were willing to walk on the street and throw their lives for this nation today we have brought this to a point where a man who is not corrupt is a celebrity we have to change this we have to make Jayaprakash Narayan an ordinary citizen of this nation absolutely what is the minimum requirement has now become the maximum qualification unfortunately we're absolutely right Sadhguru I think it's a wonderful blend of spiritualism with pragmatism it's rare to find a spiritual leader give us such absolutely compelling logic I'm trying to bring him down he's trying to praise me such compelling arguments and response to real challenges of life thank you Sadhguru for that reality check thank you very much deeply grateful to you for this interaction