 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Mr. Timothy Roberts to talk about the indie cymbal movement going on right now across the world Tim Welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me Bart Yeah, very cool man. We just met in Chicago, which was nice to meet you and I I think I briefly talked to her But I kind of met your wife and your your baby daughter Yes, and at the the the cymbal hang upstairs and all that which was super cool I'm sure we'll sure we'll talk about that stuff and the the Chicago hang but yeah Can you quickly explain because there's reverie drum co? Just give us your brands that you are operating as just to kind of cue things up here. Yeah, so my brief history is that I went to school for music played professionally for a few years and The life was not for me. I wanted something more steady and I had always wanted to I'd always wanted to build a snare drum and so I had a little dip in my work A few months where I wasn't traveling wasn't doing any touring and I decided just order some parts and make a snare drum and see What happened and I cannot remember a transition from Doing that or saying I was gonna try it to okay. This is what I'm doing now For the foresee foreseeable future and so I started building custom drums in 2015 that morphed into Making percussion accessory products made out of recycled symbols cool dove me into the world of bronze and before I knew it I was Full-time cymbal Smith and so I still make the drums I've got a couple employees that helped me do that and my my role is as a as a cymbal Smith Nice, that's awesome, which we will talk about all this stuff more But I'm always just curious because like it's working with cymbals and metal It's just not something drums. I kind of get like you order something offline. You put the parts together, but cymbal smithing is a different kind of beast that takes some Some work which which we'll discuss but before we do this a couple quick things I want to I want to say first off I want to give a patreon shout-out to mr. Sean Meeks M eek s who joined up at the upper tier on patreon and he said he doesn't really have anything to promote he just wants to support the show and I really appreciate it. He's been a fan of the podcast for a long time So thank you to Sean for for helping out. It really it helps Everything to pay for all these little things here and there so thanks to Sean if you guys want to join patreon patreon.com slash drum history podcast and then Tim I want to mention Someone who connected us actually Rob Hart who has been on the podcast before teacher educator great guy in San Francisco He said he tried some of your symbols at round sound symbols and was just blown away. So Testimony right there. Yeah, and then he sent me a pair of 14 a Hat new beats some of the early new beats when they actually had a really thin top hat It wasn't just two chunky symbols It was like one of the early models and he had me take him way down and we got to kind of chatting at that point And that's when he connected us. So that's awesome. All right, Tim So there is something going on in the in the you know, the the atmosphere right now with symbol making it is so popular It's like a it's a revolution in the symbol world where people are doing it on their own So you made a really cool outline which we'll kind of follow along here, but let's just start man Where do you want to begin? So to me? I Would say it starts with Roberto Spisichino and a lot of people would say that You you kind of have to go back one step prior and you know You've had people way more knowledgeable on the Zilgen brand and K Zilgen a Zilgen There's a whole history there Which I think you actually have an episode literally devoted to that which I've listened to sure and just a brief recap is that you have a K Zilgen factory and then you have a member of the Zilgen family moving to the US and starting another factory in the US and then they compete with each other and What happens is in the 70s the K Zilgen factory shuts down and the K Istanbul line was known for Thinner symbols a lot of jazz guys use those symbols a lot of jazz guys use A's as well, but the K had Had a vibe that a lot of drummers really loved and they were phased out in the late 70s and During the 70s you have this guy Roberto Spisichino. He was a professional drummer. He started tinkering with cymbals I believe it was in the 80s and Started making his own cymbals. He was hired by the company Euphip as a as an R&D guy and Was with them For a time period. I don't know how many years and then he left and Started making his own cymbals and he was from what I've read. He was inspired by the the K Istanbul line and He wanted to make symbols in that vein and I would you know, I would venture to guess that you know in the 80s You had a huge boom in the technology of recorded music and live music. It got way louder You know, all of a sudden you had to have a symbol that had a bell that could cut through a stack And so a zildjans were getting heavier in the 80s and the bells were getting super big and just really piercing sounds great for rock and roll but a lot of people were We're sad at the fact that the K the K symbols were not Continuing to be made they were they were out of production and so they became rare They were sought after collectibles and so there was a real gap in the a real chasm in the market of that kind of sound You can make an argument that zildjans was making symbols for that, but it was It was a much smaller piece of their pie and what they were really producing in the 80s I modify a lot of symbols and I see a ton of zildjans from the 80s and the 90s come in And I always cringe when I see them because they're just the way they're set up is they're set up to be loud And then a lot of times people want them, you know quiet and nuanced So you're shaving stuff off of those to get them usually just taking the weight way down and you know, they're still real loud Yeah, but you know note obviously no hate on those companies. It's just sounds to me. It's just sounds, you know It's I I definitely have my preferences But one thing I really love about symbols and about music in generals is there's there's no one right answer And there's you can always connect with a certain symbol You know, there's arguments that you can make the argument that there's no bad Sounding symbol or you know, cuz cuz maybe someone likes it and you know, it's not bad for them so for me, I'm I'm super inspired by Spisikino and You know, he really is like the godfather of this indie cymbal Smith movement and You know his heyday. I think was between the years of like 1991 till his death, which was in 2011 And during that phase, you know, he had been making symbols I believe for around a decade before that worked for you FIP and In that decade when he was really at his prime making, you know Some really incredible symbols was when you had a lot of other symbol Smith start to come in and you have what I would call Like the first wave of indie makers that come after Spisikino A lot of those guys are still making incredible symbols today. I've got my little lists here I could read off a few names, but sure we got Mike Schieba Craig Lortz and Steve Hubbock Matt Nolan who we both, you know, hung out with in Chicago. Yep We got Matt Bettis Michael Piste There's really there's probably a couple other names in that list but those were the guys that that kind of took inspiration from Spis and started doing it and and you know, so it starts with one it goes to you know ten and Then there's a second wave, which is kind of the 2010s to now and that number of ten independent symbol Smith has moved now to Probably 20 or 30 There's a whole another batch of guys that are currently just working on their technique and getting their stuff together So in the coming years that you know, it's gonna be an exponential growth kind of thing in this symbol Smithing movement And I'm super happy I get to be a part of it, you know totally and and just to kind of So this there is an incredible short four and a half minute documentary that Alex Healy created about Spis Aquino that that I'll put in the description for people to watch but Roberto Spis Aquino he even said in it. There's there's nothing wrong with the big brands He said they're just they're all beautiful and he likes the ugly sounds Yeah, where I think ugly is kind of a subjective term where it's not maybe that the crystal clean You know perfect sound of like a zilgen a piste a minor where you come to expect that, right? He's he and and you have some cool actually videos of you modifying a Spis Aquino Symbol on your YouTube channel, which I'm sure people are like dude. What are you doing? But I definitely have a couple people that are like not happy that I did that but overall I think it's kind of an interesting. It's cool And yeah, and I mean it's it it just gives it new life And maybe if that that sound if it's a little too far out of the the norm of what people expect Why not modify it a little bit? But So he said those big brands are really, you know, there's nothing wrong with them obviously but another interesting thought too is that like there's a lot of brands who maybe We're like there's like the The boss for us and the Istanbul memmets there's the brands that kind of like Started off smaller and then got a little bigger and then you kind of get out of the indie Symbol yeah phase and then you get bigger right where it's like an evolution like I wonder if if some of these You know maybe you and these other guys will hit a level of now They are a little bit bigger and they're no longer in the indie category and it's just it's like a band, right? Exactly. Yeah, they're no longer indie. They're now mainstream So it's just it's really neat to see how it all works and grows and and I think you said this before but just to clarify There's a lot of people guys girls people we talk about we will we cannot mention every single name Some of them we've we've you know them I know them from the drum shows, but there's a lot of people so if we don't mention Either you as a builder if you're listening or someone Who you know you may know it's just because there's so many people, you know just to kind of clarify that There's a lot. Yeah, and I would I will say like what you mentioned boss boss for us That was actually a company that to me and my personal musical journey was a stepping stone Towards what I'm doing now because you know, they're a smaller company. They're a Turkish company They're making symbols a little bit more in the vein of that old K kind of thinner Jazzier kind of sound. I started out. I was all Sabian, you know my favorite drummer played Sabian And then, you know, I listened to rush all the time and I would just play along to Neil Peart and just I had my Drum set up like him and you know, I that happened and then college was what introduced me into jazz And then at the same time I kind of I discovered boss for us. I just discovered Agop some of these other smaller companies that were that actually I would say, you know took inspiration from in a lot of ways the movement that Spisikino started and Also the jazz drummers that were just demanding this kind of sound They they wanted to go back to this harken back to this, you know older time when, you know You could get a 22 inch ride that was 2400 grams. It wasn't 3500 grams with a huge profile and a massive bell, you know Yeah, they wanted that and so it's partly the drummer and what the the drummer in the musicians are asking for But it's also partly, you know, I would say due to do the influence of Spisikino, you know Yeah, that's the tale as old as time when it comes to cymbals is like Gene Krupa going to zilgin and saying I need this Thinner or I need this a bigger cymbal. I need this for this. It's it's what the drummer wants and it's the cymbal Smith's job To make it work for them. Yes, which is really really cool. So yeah All right, that's a great explanation. So there's a couple there's there's the early wave There's the first wave. There's the second wave and there's the third wave of people doing it now Which just to touch on the third wave So you by that you mean there's people who are like getting their little like blanks and working on learning how to do it Yes, and coming up. Yeah, that's awesome. And it's you know, a lot of us guys get started by modifying cymbals I probably modified. I modified well over 500 cymbals before I ever touched a blank Wow So I started a company that and my original goal mainly because I didn't think it was possible to make a cymbal from scratch It was like, you know I had to spend all of my mental and physical energy just to figure out how to build a lathe and So when I got my lathe it was like, okay, I'm gonna modify cymbals And so I offered it I put it up on my website started having people send me stuff and I got my technique and learned by doing it and also being able to see almost every type of cymbal that was on the market Before I ever you know grabbed a a raw bronze blank to start from scratch and shaping that thing And a lot of us guys got started in that way like I actually have a picture of my on my phone from when I interviewed Matt Nolan on my podcast And it was like of his very first Projects where he it was he had cut out like the batman insignia out of a cymbal And it was just some crappy cymbal he got and he did that that was his first mod and then That led to more people sending him stuff and saying can you make this weird thing? And it kind of snowballs you get you get into it and then you start to realize, okay It's more possible than I thought to change the sound of this instrument And then you start asking the questions of what if I have a lathe? What would it take to get a lathe? what would it take to You know build an anvil and start making my own hammers and and then Before you know it, you're there like it really does kind of capture you if you if you have the mind for it This week's episode is brought to you by gm designs custom symbols GM designs is not your typical cymbal company They create symbols that you won't see anywhere else things such as b20 finger cymbals a b20 triangle a multi bell symbol And very recently they created the largest bell ever on a cymbal at 10 inches in addition to creating their own original cymbals They also take old ideas that are no longer in production Revised them and make them available again Also recently pat musta letto formally of king crimson was using a gmd multi bell symbol Which is super cool Whether you're a studio musician a touring professional or a passionate beginner gm designs offers a diverse selection of symbols to cater to Your musical needs visit their website to explore their gallery of products store links and latest features at gmdsymbols.com That's gmdsymbols.com It's not supposed to be easy where everyone can just go out and be like i'm going to start making symbols There has to be like It's especially again, you're working with metal. It's kind of dangerous like leaving It's not like something you just do You take lightly and just go out and start doing this and it's loud and you need like, you know The right setup for it. So tons of uh respiratory Dangers, there's sure, you know, I mean I've cut my hand on sharp edges of symbols that were spinning at 400 rpm on my lathe More times than I can count, you know, and and it's a miracle I still have all of my fingers and and i'm i'm relatively intact after just You know, I didn't have anyone training me in the beginning It was just it was just figuring it out as I went and The age that we're in now, which is what's cool in this, you know to call it like a third wave kind of thing The second wave which I would you know, I'm I'm technically, you know I'm by the way, I'm I'm the one only one who's actually said these things about waves There's no one who's actually designated. There's a first and second and third wave I just kind of pulled this out of my butt. Hopefully it works Um, but you know, I'm in the second wave, you know having started my company in 2015 And I've got some years under my belt and some symbols under my belt And for the big for the first, you know, two three years I had no instruction at all. I was modifying symbols Doing things the hard way And then, you know, you hit like 2019 2020 And you start to have a trickle of some of the makers saying well, maybe we should teach this art form So I have to give a huge shout out to Dave Collingwood. Who's a really good buddy of mine Who has a patreon where you can literally go to him with zero training zero know-how about how to do it And he'll teach you from square one. Wow. What do you need to do? What do you need to look out for? What what do you need to order to make your lathe? You know, and and he actually helped me in a lot of ways just kind of clear away some of the pitfalls And get me to the point where I was just working more efficiently So a lot of the guys in this third wave the reason we're seeing a big boom is because there are people out there training Other people and and kind of opening up things a little bit where it has been a really closed community Mainly because of like you said how hard it is it's it's incredibly difficult to get into this thing It's incredibly dangerous and if you don't have someone teaching you it can be very daunting to try to step into it And you know, I think partly because there's a desire in the market for these kinds of symbols There's actually room for all of the people that are that are offering their their symbols now I can make a living as a full-time independent cymbal smith In today's day and age, which is crazy. Like that wasn't the case Before social media hit and I can get on this little crazy black box and just post hey, I made a symbol And then sell it and feed my family, you know, that that wasn't the case so Seriously, that's you know, obviously I we could sit here and talk about all the dangers of social media All all we want, but that's like a little plus to it And so that's another reason why we have such a growth in this this movement Yes, absolutely and youtube, which I think I said it before but you mentioned your podcast Um, which you can I'm assuming you can listen everywhere, but there's also it's on your youtube channel reverie rv e r i e drums You've got ray burn You've got a lot of people who have been on this the show and our friends of the show Ray was the first person ever sponsor the podcast and he sent me some symbols in exchange for some ads So uh nicky moon paul francis. You've got some some great stuff on there. So everyone check that out But um, you've i'm looking at your outline as for the symbols themselves You say understanding the symbol construction is very important for a smith obviously, but the musicians Slash drummers who are looking to find their sound should know that as well So explain that a little bit like the construction of it I'm always interested on how the hammering affects things and the latheing affects things and how that You know the weight what that translates to me as the consumer how that all works. Yeah, and it's it's confusing Because it's it's very confusing and it's and it's very hard to like concisely put it all in one little box so that you understand it all and and I think Like a lot of us I got into symbol smithing because I was dissatisfied with what I could find in the market I didn't feel like the sound I had in my head was being offered anywhere And then also a healthy dose of Being an insane person, you know, you have that combination and then you start pursuing. Okay Well, what what if I just try to make this myself? um and As I through the years of modifying symbols and then starting to make them I really started to have it was like a very slow process that happened over the course of years of this Very basic level of understanding of okay. I see What's happening? I see how you can utilize different Specs Different ways of constructing a symbol to get the kind of sound you want Yeah, and oftentimes when people send me mods You know, there's a big element of of training people What to look for if you have a symbol and you think there might be a treasure inside that symbol that you kind of think is meh Uh, what do you look for to be able to give you the best possible answer as to whether or not You can get that out of the symbol get something that's really Beautiful out of that symbol that you will really love and connect with so Um, I'm going to talk about a phrase that I will rip straight from dave callingwood So all credit goes to dave here. He has a thing that he says that shape is sound So this to me Kind of encompasses everything and I'm going to take what he says. He kind of just leaves it there He talks about it in his in his patreon stuff But I've taken that and sort of run with it in a way to help me because I'm a really simple person I'm not a I'm not I don't consider myself super smart. I'm a simple guy I need things to be boiled down into their utmost Basic level for me to understand I feel the same way about and I and I think a lot of people are like that and and it's it's it's great And I mean even just to take a little You know as a side note I've noticed in the in the last couple of years all of my favorite drummers that are on an unbelievable level of technical prowess And mastery if you listen to them talk about what they practice Almost always they're like I practice the basics Yeah, I practice my single stroke roles and you're like, okay when I listen to you play in your band You know, I'm hearing the most insane music and and and unbelievable chops Uh musicality interaction with the other like you're saying you work on your single strokes And they're like yes, I work on my single strokes And fundamentals the fundamentals so in with cymbals, you know and cymbal smithing in particular the fundamentals are huge So back to shape is sound shape is sound If you can have a basic level of understanding of the shape of a cymbal You can be better equipped to know what it is you want to look for to get the sound you have in your head So i'm going to just read this off because I listed. Uh, I think it's like six or seven things so I I have to there's a little bit of stretching with these things so just go with me here and you know If you have any questions if nothing's clear, you know, if something's not clear just just let me know So obviously really basic we have the overall diameter of the cymbal. Is it six inches? Is it 22 inches? Okay, that's a shape right? A certain shape obviously the smaller we have the higher the pitch is the bigger we have the lower the pitch is so Broad strokes, that's what we have then we have what's called the profile And if you look at the side of a cymbal, you know, you're looking at how it curves You know, you've got the bell How it's shaped how it curves and you've got the body and how it curves And the varying degrees to which it curves is the profile and so we can manipulate a cymbal smiths. We can manipulate the sound In a massive way just by how that thing is shaped And same with the bell, which i'll get to in a second. Uh, we have the shape of the thickness So so this the shape here is it is it like this? Is it like this? You know, that's going to be obviously the thinner it is the lower the pitch the thicker it is the higher the pitch And so you start to see when you add just one or two or three elements There's a lot there that you can adjust the different variables and get different sounds So what if you combined a very big cymbal? You know, relatively it's got a low pitch with So a big cymbal with a thick weight Or a high degree of thickness, which is a higher pitch So you've got low pitch high pitch together and it kind of balances in a certain way Yeah, if you get a very big cymbal and you have it be very thin You've got low stacked on top of low and you've got this super growly Very, you know some a cymbal with a very low fundamental Probably incredibly washy You know, and then you've got the profile Now the profile like the the more it curves. This is all super general, but the more it curves the higher the pitch So now we have okay, so now say we have a 20 inch cymbal. Okay 20 inches very common Okay, we want a 20 inch cymbal that is going to be very thin because we want it to be light and responsive But we also don't want it to be muddy What do we do? We get that 20 inch cymbal and we hammer it into a taller shape So we're raising the pitch because of the tall shape But because of the thin the thickness the thin weight we have a lower fundamental there So we're then starting to design our cymbal in a way that we can have a really light responsive cymbal But it has a high enough pitch to the stick articulation That it can have some clarity and it's just it's not just muddy I was going to say so the opposite of mud would be clarity and just each hit So if so mud though would just be each hit is not very well defined It's just kind of yeah And the cymbal is activating and all the overtones are activating to a point where they just overtake the clarity You have on got it. We're talking about a ride to obviously crashes are a different thing um And so you know to take the reverse point before I keep moving on the reverse point is like okay We want to have a very low fundamental and a flat shape, right? We don't want this super umbrella shaped cymbal We want a flatter shape. So maybe we need More weight With a flatter shape. So that flatter shape is going to give us a lower fundamental But the the the heavier weight on the cymbal is going to give us enough clarity because there's there's going to be enough material there So that when you hit the stick, you're going to hear the stick And then there's there'll be this really low growly wash underneath it But you can't put more weight back on a cymbal, right? Yeah, yeah Okay, I was like wait a minute. That seems like a dumb question I probably should say that in a in a different way So it's like design your cymbal to have more weight on it and then just hammer it into a lower shape, you know Yes, so and then So that's just that's just three of those Uh of the of these elements. I've got a a few more. So I I don't want it to get too complicated But no go for it The point of those taking those three and talking about them is is just to say that it's kind of like a mixing engineer sitting behind a You know, you got a band mix engineer You're sitting there with the faders and you're mixing in certain things except with cymbal making If you turn up one fader, it's going to affect all the other faders in a way So sure it's like a mix between being a mix engineer and being You know and tuning a drum head, right because you turn one lug It's it's affecting the other lugs around the drum. So yes The next one I have is taper taper is just where that thickness is located. So Typically you will taper your cymbal out towards the edge. So it gets thinner as it gets out towards the edge Now what you can do there is if you want a cymbal, you know, we'll put aside the other factors Say you want a cymbal that has a really nice Soft or feel and it opens up quickly with a crash But it has a lot of stick definition You can just taper the outer two or three inches Real thin and then leave more weight up Higher on the cymbal So then, you know, that weight is going to give you the stick clarity you want But but because it's thinning to the edge you can crash on it and it will respond really quick Cool. So that's taper I like to say I don't I haven't heard any other cymbal smiths say this but I like to talk about topography So just kind of like the the peaks in the troughs from the all that kind of like a map, you know So you got cymbals that are smooth think of like a an a custom projection crash, right If you were to zoom in to that, it's going to be relative Relatively it's going to have minimal topography. It's going to be pretty flat The lazing is going to be pretty shallow and pretty close together And what that allows for is for the sound to propagate up and down the cymbal quickly and easily Okay, so the sound is traveling and when there's more hammering it It's going up and down and through the hammer the hammer hits and everything but right A custom smooth. You don't really see much hammering. It's just It feels it's flat and so those you know, it's it's just able to shoot off the edge like water Whereas if you have you know, I'm trying to think of I mean if you look at like the The agop line of like the dark dry where they just have these massive machine hammering divots You know, you've created this really crazy topography In one sense, you're you're sort of drying up what I call the spread or the sustain of the of the sound You're giving it a drier sound That sound the sound waves can't propagate up and down as easily So it's going to translate into a bit of a drier sound With with a cymbal like a spizzakina ride Like I had a ride in you mentioned like the spizzakina ride that I modified, you know It has this balance of topography smoothness And topography also relates to the lathing. How deep does the lathe groove go? How wide is it? You know, if you go with a wider separation between those grooves and you go deeper That's also creating that topography. So so with that that spizzakina ride Because it was a little bit more In it was a little bit more balanced It wasn't quite as extreme as that dark dry series from agap. I believe it's from agap But dark dry series and it's not as smooth as the a custom You know, it's kind of in the middle somewhere What this can do to the sound is it can give you What I like to call like stretching apart the frequencies So that you have you're just creating separation the lows are really low The mids are in a place and the highs are really high. So there's separation It's it's not unlike when you look at a video. That's 4k We're You know next to a video that's 360p or a video that's just kind of grainy, right? It feels the grainy video feels kind of flat It feels kind of squished But then you look at the 4k video and you just see the depth all of the depth is there And it draws you in more so symbols are like that You know, you can create a symbol in a way that it feels very wide sonically And and and because of that you have a clarity on your stick definition It's not getting muddy. It sits out on top, but you also have more stuff going on underneath It's kind of that ugly thing that spizzakino talked about in that documentary he likes And and I would I would rephrase it and call it vibe. It's it's the vibe that makes you want to play that symbol And I think that's a very good kind of Example of that looking at like standard definition video versus ultra hd where There's plenty of people out there who will literally like maybe like, you know, your mom or your dad They'll watch like a video that's like 480 and they're p and they're like it looks fine Right, they don't care right that could be like, you know, just getting a scrapping a symbol off of the rack That's like, you know, middle of the road kind of symbol But then there's people who are passionate about You know 8k video or something. Yeah, there's something for everyone just and it's not wrong one way or the other but That's a good way to look at it. Yeah, and it's also to your point It's also the function And what what what do you need it for? So, you know, if you took one of my jazzy or symbols And put it with a rock band. It's not going to work. You know, sure There's a real point to be said that maybe an a custom ping ride is better for your rock gig than one of my Symbols that I've agonized over for hours. You know, it really comes down to the function. And so I you know Like I really resonate with spizzakina where when he says you can find beautiful sounds anywhere You know, piste makes some of the most beautiful sounding symbols. I've ever heard They're consistent. They're beautiful You know, it's not the sound I gravitate towards Um, but it's amazing and it does the job really really well So if you need that kind of sound, you're not going to get that kind of sound with a thin jazzy wobbly thing And I like to talk about this a lot on my youtube channel Like the function of your symbol. What do you need it to do? Oftentimes we hear It behind the kit and we go, wow, this is amazing But are you thinking about how that symbol sounds 30 feet in front of the kit? Are you thinking about how it sounds translated through mics and through a sound system? Maybe your thin jazzy washy dark ride Is not as good as you think it is for your the environment that you're in maybe you need something That's a little bit more of just a straight ahead 460p video because it's just going to be flat clear and it's going to cut, you know Yeah, yeah, but that's the fun part. We get to buy more symbols and exactly. Yes more stuff I have a huge collection. Yes, exactly. You spend all of our money. All right. So your list so far We'll keep going. We have overall diameter profile thickness Taper topography. Yep. I said everything about topography. Basically the more topography The more dry the more choked those the sustained and overtones are The less topography the more smooth and and the more The more resonant and the longer the sustain and then there's a whole middle ground Which I like to play in the middle ground. I don't like the extremes typically I like to find the nuance in the middle ground. So there's a lot of nuance with topography Taper, you know, that's just where that thickness is located The next is the the bell or the cup some people say and that's you know, the shape of the bell Is it, you know tall and kind of almost triangular and conical shaped or is it wider and lower? That's going to dictate a to a very large degree the sound of your symbol The way I like to explain this simply is just take a flat ride. No bell, right? What do you get with a flat ride? You get stick definition. Do you have a crash? No, you don't really have a crash with a you don't have a Sustaining crash that's very loud With a flat ride Um, I try to make flat rides that do crash, but but it's different. It's just a different thing Yeah, you add in a bell Say it's a really small mini cup bell all of a sudden you have stick definition But all of a sudden there's more sustain And the the crash is a little bit more it's louder and a little bit more present And then you start to have you know say say with a flat ride You got stick definition and then crashes way down here with a mini bell. Maybe it's more like this Okay, and then with you get a normal size Standard pressed bell Normal height normal width all of a sudden that sustain and volume of the crash is up here. It's a little bit higher So so basically the bell is giving you you know to over generalize It's giving you the volume and the sustain to the crash Of the symbol like in the simplest terms without doing like I mean, I'm sure you can do a college class on it Why why is the bell affecting the way the sound is working like spreading like that so much? I would so I mean to me. I think I I don't really know to be honest Good answer But to me it's it's the the I like to think about Like the liberty bell, you know, the liberty bell is just this massive like Chime thing crazy. Yeah, and you think about what like if you think about the liberty bell, what does it sound like to you? It's just a thick Yes, like lots of sustain lots of sustain And so imagine you have like a a piece of bronze and you've put the liberty bell on it And you're you're adding in that kind of character to this to the symbol and that's the extreme So what if you you take it a little bit lower and a little less crazy shaped? Then you're getting less of that dong Kind of sound in it. Maybe that's there's a better way of saying that But you get a little less of that and it's like kind of Putting that into the sustain and maybe it's the the separation in the way that The the curvature a lot oftentimes cymbal smiths will talk about the having an integrated bell or a separated bell So that oftentimes has to do with these hard angles and hard Curvatures up. Do you have a bell that's really gradual? Well, that bell is kind of morphing into the sound of the symbol itself Whereas if the bell the body comes up and then it's a really harsh curvature up into the bell You're going to have separation from that Of the bell and the body of the symbol So I That's a good explanation Short answer is I don't know that what we just heard was me just pulling that out of my butt And I do think it connects because that's kind of how I think about bells I I think about the separation and the or the integration. I think about the height You know the height and the width really does To say it simply the bigger the bell the louder it's going to be the more sustained it's going to have Yeah, I'm I'm also which I haven't really done before since talking to you more visualizing a stick hit And then sound traveling and the the the you know Direction and the path it's going to kind of find the quickest way out Yes, like dissipate basically And if it has a quick and easy exit, then it's like it's just going to be heard You're going to see it going down the horizon You're going to see it for miles as it's leaving right But if it's if you've got hills and valleys, you can't see the horizon, you know, you're just you're blocked by the nearest hill So you're it that it's drier It's it's it kind of just falls off the edge And doesn't sustain very much and you just have you're left with just the attack, you know, sure Is that all of them or do we do we cover density? Density is kind of a little bit more of an abstract one and I don't want it to be something that confuses People but I'll just run over it super quick sure density can relate to stiffness So the material itself when you get a blank a blank is a completely untensioned piece of bronze and I like to think of tension or stiffness as I like to use the analogy of a guitar string Because you you know you tighten that guitar string and the pitch is going up Right you loosen the guitar string it pitch is going down But at a certain point you lose the tension in it And it floats. Yeah, and then it's not going to make a sound right So obviously it's a piece of metal. It's going to make a sound But like when you get a blank and you just hit it You hear attack and then you hear a growly wash that dies super quick It's just a soft malleable piece of metal And when you're hammering it into shape, you're also dealing with the density And you're putting in you're like tuning up the guitar string and and putting in this stiffness That the material doesn't want to be in it wants to be in a loose state And so you're like a guitar string doesn't want to be stretched tight It wants to be just loose and floppy. So you're forcing it into this tight space, which is going to give it Which is what gives it that sustain the the stiffness the density. It's all going to give it The ability to kind of ring out Against its will, you know as a as an element. So yeah, yeah with with density and stiffness. You can also talk about the like the surface and Like what's on the surface? This is kind of a side note is you know, you'll see Unlaid symbols. So if you if you look at a brown symbol, right Just make it simple brown symbols Have the unlaid crust on them and that's the crust that forms on the bronze when it's in the oven You pull that thing out you put it on a lathe you shave away the crust you're left with that beautiful golden color And that you're in you're opening up raw bronze, which has much The the ability to sustain much more that unlaid crust just makes things dry So minal is the king of dry. They're the king of just Really thin and and utilizing an unlaid crust. So it's it's low pitched dry. It's trashy It's aggressive it gets in it gets out You can also simulate that via the use of a patina Whether it's chemical natural you can build up crime You can do clear coats and waxes and things to kind of simulate that So that's kind of a side thing all of those things I would I would classify under the mantra of shape And so if you can kind of just force yourself to dive in a little bit And understand the different elements you can start to see In the matrix so to speak, you know what I mean? Like you can start to see okay Now I understand what's happening. Why does this symbol sound the way that it does and why does the symbol I bought That you know sounded one way on the recording. Why isn't it doing what I wanted it to do when I have it in my drum room? You know, there's a whole conversation to be had there, but Yeah, that makes sense. Um, all right So two questions come to mind first off just kind of one that's like like just popped into my head of like I remember being somewhere and I've seen these before where there is a certain kind of symbol that I've never played As you're talking about density where it is so wobbly And it's so just like it there's something to it and I You know probably what I'm talking about. What is the deal with that type of symbol? Yeah, so uh Again over generalizing and I say I say over generalizing a lot because I want to go back to that point of every Every shape in a symbol every every element affects every other element So you you have to say one thing and you have to have a million caveats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Put all that to the side I can take a symbol I can put it on my lathe and I could I could flip it upside down and put it on my lathe So I'm I'm facing the the underside of the symbol on the bottom. Yep. Yep I can then take a a blunt metal rounded off rod And I can use pressure I can press into the bottom of that symbol And I can just relax the whole thing. I'm not cutting away material All I'm doing is using pressure. So I pull that symbol off. I hit it. All of a sudden. It's a jellyfish That's exactly right. I was thinking I didn't explain that right. It is like Visibly, there's something going on with this symbol that makes it jellyfish is a great. It's just It looks like a like a amorphous blob. Exactly. It's just so wobbly. So that's not lady And that is just relaxing the metal. It is it is lazing because you know if you can cut away material on the bottom and use pressure and kind of Relax the metal But you can do it without removing any metal without hammering So this kind of gets into the point of you know, when I'm hammering a symbol if I hammer the bottom I'm kind of I'm kind of I'm doing this with the bottom, right? I'm kind of like let it's slumping a little bit I'm kind of detensioning it destiffening it and it's kind of slumping You have to do bottom hammering to get your structure there, but I like to think of it like a tent So a tent has these like, you know stilt things in it and then there's fabric stretched across it You know if there weren't the stilts on the underside of the symbol the fabric would just be laying on the ground Totally floppy. So you need structure on the underside of your symbol But if you want to stiffen a symbol, it's all on the top So you work the top to stiffen the symbol. So got it So it's it's you know making a symbol is this is this back and forth top bottom You're just rocking it into the shape that you want it to have And then you just keep going if you want it more umbrella shapes you just keep going so And then you can get it to a certain shape You can let it rest, but the molecules kind of realign And then you could go in and like I said use a blunt tool hit the underside You know just like pressure on the underside And then all of a sudden you can slump it And I use that actually as an effective tool if I get a symbol in that just has a crazy hum That's ugly. Sometimes maybe you just need to Detention the thing on the underside Which will take that hum and it just drops the pitch of the hum way lower And so then you can kind of blend it into the overall sound I don't typically like super floppy jellyfish like symbols. There's a balance to be had for sure It seemed like a I don't want to say a gimmick, but it was like a look at this Look at how crazy this thing is and I'm Like 15 years later. I'm talking about it now because I was like that thing was crazy. Look right so Hammer axe is the are you talking about hammer axe? It was a dude at a jazz club and I was watching it and he pulled it out And it was like 26 inches and I was like what is going on, but it was huge and floppy and Yeah, all right. So the next question that I had was what makes You guys different what makes one person have their own sound their own style It's probably a hard thing to answer. But like what makes someone that what's like the difference between everyone I love that question. I so what makes your favorite drummer your favorite drummer Versus versus the other drummer, you know, it's it's influences It's life experience. It's the work that the person has done And you know with cymbal smithing just like with music it's it's the ear like I You know, I I find myself. I don't feel like I'm the most talented person I don't feel like I'm the best. I don't feel like I have the most technique Or whatever. I feel like I have I just spent a ton of years a lot of years developing my ear And so I just let that my ear guide me and I'm and I'm looking for sounds I'm kind of like looking for the sound I have I've listened to a lot of music I've listened to a lot of tony williams and elvin jones and and when they play their patterns the way that cymbal sits in the recording And and how it elevates like, you know, if it's elvin how it elevates john coltrane's solo That ride that he has does something to kind of come underneath the solo And elevate it to a new place. So I've listened to all that kind of stuff And so when I'm making cymbals, I'm just going off of What I hear and what I want to hear and it's a process of discovery and curiosity And you know, you talk to a lot of musicians, especially guys that that play improvisational music That's the mentality they they take into into playing and so, you know, there is there is the the more performancey kind of Technician sort of musician and those guys are amazing and there are cymbal smiths that are like that that just have The most unbelievable sense of technique and prowess and they know exactly what they're aiming at And they know how to nail it every time And then you have on the other side you have this more Maybe artsy is the way to say it like a more artsy approach to Like it's totally a discovery a journey to discover what is possible um And you know for me, it's just my influences like my my cymbals sound the way they do because of The years that I put into the craft but also into just listening to music and knowing what I want to hear um I could sit here and rattle off what I love about all the other guys that are my friends that are part of that second way We talked about you know, and and why their cymbals speak to me and why I would want One of their cymbals over even one of mine because they are better at doing their thing and achieving Their sound you know, yeah, that's To queue up perfectly. I just got to say that You guys are very like Everyone's building everyone up like especially from just being at the chicago drum show There's no i'm sure. I mean there's competition We're all trying to you know, everyone's trying to feed their family, but really it's like A big hang and everyone seems to be supporting everyone and and I mean i've I've known nicky moon for years now and and he you guys there's always the same like Uh respect for other cymbal smiths that I think is just like I guess it happens with drum builders too But I I think like the drum community is special subcategory beneath that the cymbal making category is even More special where you guys have your own little like club of like we've we've all worked our way up We've almost cut our fingers off. We've we've worked our way through this and I think you guys are very supportive of of each other Which is cool And and you know, we we take a lot of inspiration from each other like nicky is nicky is an inspiration of mine Watching him develop and his voice grow like he's one of the guys that to me Is making some of the most amazing cymbals i've heard he's he's his technical prow prowess to be able to execute A well balanced beautiful sounding cymbal Is you know, he's he's up there at the very very top And he's also making really interesting sounds at the same time. So it's like it's not clean and sterile It's got vibe and it's and it's so well executed. So I've I've watched him for years I've watched mongello for years. I've watched calling wood for years craig lauretson You know, all of these guys are my friends now, but they're also Um huge inspirations and and maybe it's because we're still At the the movement is still relatively small even though we are in kind of a renaissance right now of a bunch of new guys Coming and coming out and starting to do this And maybe it's just small enough Uh to where we are just all supporting each other. I don't know if that'll change and it'll become super cut through it but um, I think there is a camaraderie in Having had gone through the gauntlet of learning how to do it I think when when people come onto the scene, they're like, I'm a news. I'm a cymbal smith. Here. I am I've been doing it for six months. You know what happens is All of the makers kind of just we kind of sit back and watch for a second You know, we're not like we're not like immediately like all right. You're you're one of us We sit back and watch and it's like the second We just like wait, we don't talk bad about people I don't talk bad about any of these guys like yeah, of course, you know, it's it really even behind the scenes It's a very like it's a very welcoming community But we'll sit back and wait and it's like we know everybody's got to go through the gauntlet Everybody's got to have some failures Everybody's got to realize that like at the beginning every symbol you make is like the biggest umbrella ever And then learning how to learning how to execute and make a flat symbol that's lower shaped Is takes years it honestly takes years and so we wait and then there's there's a sense of like I don't know when it happens or who decides when it happens But there's a sense where when you kind of hit that point You've proven yourself that you're like you're in it You're for the long haul it's like the community like opens its Opens its doors wide open and you're like you're part of it You know and and the the chicago drum show was like the first time I felt like we were all able to get like a group of us were able to get together And and show what we're doing. Yeah, and it was just it was amazing I'm I'm actually like trying to talk to other drum shows And almost like presenting the same idea like hey chicago did this it was really awesome Do you guys want to do it too? Which to explain real quick? It was rob cooked it a it was like meet the smiths the cymbal smiths where it was all day There was uh, there was basically every 30 minutes. There was another symbol maker being interviewed by steve maxwell jr. Who was Doing a great job. Yeah, it was awesome. So that was that whole thing and then sunday There was a hang up in the second floor of the Expo center or whatever where we could all just kind of talk and hang out. So That's what this is not just some like, oh, they all had different booths and we kind of floated around It was displayed for everyone to see and hear and share paul francis. Everyone was there talking about it Yeah, it was awesome And then and then we also had booths and people were able to walk around and check out people did have booths Yes, of course That was the first time I got to meet dav calling what in person He had been, you know a friend through, you know the virtual space for years and yeah, um, you know getting to play matt nolan's 24 inch ride that he brought. I mean, I was just I was in heaven. Honestly. I was I was kind of just totally geeking out That was the first time sarah and paul had their royal symbols symbol craftsman thing up Yes, which you know, I paul's probably the one to tell to say this But I didn't I never really knew what was up with the brands, but it's it's like a zilgen and k zilgen Sure, you know, so it's like it's like their representation or you know dark and dirty sounds clean sounds, which I was like Okay, the only person in the world that can do that is paul. Yeah, and sarah, you know what I mean, like yeah he's kind of uh like I don't want to say godfather of all of this but he kind of really is because he his situation with moving and going independent But he he said when we were standing there talking that really this is like a revolution right now of of independent symbol smiths And this is the time and he had to have him saying that and be kind of out there Um as a great representative of of what everyone is doing Because he's very popular, but but he's also very humble But I think everyone just likes to hear paul talk about his journey and symbols. He has so much experience Just incredible. Yeah, he had he had the nefertiti ride in his possession in his office totally in his office. Yeah He I I believe he met elvin. I believe yeah, obviously he worked on the bill steward dry complex ride Like he was he did that with bill, you know, he's got a wealth of knowledge And he's one of the guys too that has kind of helped bust open the community vibe with The indy symbols miss because I mean he was telling me Just he was just telling me everything that he wasn't like holding anything back. Like, oh, yeah We did this at zilch and this is how we did it, you know and just giving me You know tips and I've been able to take little things and go. Oh, that's how, you know, they got that kind of patina Oh, cool, you know, like little things like that. He's just totally free to share Which kind of helps encourage us all to stay Humble and stay open, you know to just helping each other It's kind of a rising tide lifts all boats situation with paul Especially given that he has such a name recognition and his experience and like he's he's shining a light Just by doing it. He's shining a light on what some of the other guys have been doing for You know decades and and what the guys, you know, what this whole movement really is about which is awesome. So yeah Yeah, for sure There's parallels too of what you said about kind of like people say I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna get into it And you kind of lean back and go, all right, stick with it You're a youtube guy. I mean you've got a big following on youtube you you post there and stuff There's it's very similar to that where you're like, all right, you're new to it Give it a year and see if you're still doing it podcasting same thing. It's like, yeah Just do a hundred episodes and then see if you're still interested. It's the same thing where You just it's all exciting at first, but then make it your job Yeah And keep going and then keep going after that And then you're in this it pays off when you get to be in the group and and hang out But you got to earn your stripes and you do and and yeah Some of the best advice I ever heard because I had some real like real heavy disappointments when I was young in the playing side of things and like I had I got my dream gig at one point was touring the world and traveling And you know, and then I lost it and it was just kind of an interpersonal, you know Relationship thing and there was no contract and so okay, you're out now You can have all the dates next year now you're out And you know those kinds of things For a young person in your mid 20s at that time I was real fragile, you know, and I'm not I'm not saying all people in their mid 20s are fragile I was fragile, you know, and so and I think a lot of us artists musician types are sensitive people And you know when you're younger you just don't have the experience to know that that Kind of digging your heels in and pushing forward is a really good thing to do And you will be rewarded that some of the best advice I got was a guy that Was telling my friend like how to be successful in the music industry And his only thing that he said he goes just do it 10 years Yeah, and and within that was obviously a world of advice and wisdom. It's like Do it commit to it really do it for 10 years Yeah, and you'll succeed. It'll change what it looks like, you know It won't be what it, you know, what is in your head that won't manifest itself perfectly It will be you you will have made it if you just stick with it Obviously tons of stuff can happen, but that advice is something I've I've kept really close and I and like the youtube thing I I feel like I'm very new at committing to doing the youtube thing because I you know, it's it's hard to post a video that you've that you shot and you edited and you mixed and you did all that stuff And I'm trying to make all this all these instruments while doing the symbols. Yes And it's just tough But it's that same thing. It's like, okay If you can just commit to one video If it's five minutes if it's 10 minutes, whatever and you just do it do it a hundred times What happens at at episode number 100? Maybe it's like, oh wow, I actually have Um, this many people watching, you know, not that it's all about the numbers But it really at the end of the day is like can we put food on our on our table? And are we doing something that we are passionate about and we love so yes And it compounds everything compounds where you get more viewers than that's buying people are buying more symbols And then people are following you more on this and then that's happening because this is happening. It's not just one straight shot. It's It's multiple everything just kind of builds off of off of it. Um, and yeah But your reputation is important in our community and I think uh, like We have said before everyone seems to be very supportive of everyone and it's it's super cool There's there's just so many cool people and there's there's like I said, there's too many to name I mean, I I got to hang out with like Mike Mangelo and Matt Nolan and all and Nikki moon and all these guys at the show and you for a little bit and you had your baby daughter there Which is a different story. Oh, yeah, um, which is super cool. You brought your daughter How was that experience having having a baby at the show? That was not a plan It my my wife and my daughter were gonna stay and we had some like family news come up And it was like, okay, you're just gonna come with us and just hang with us and we'll just see how this goes And we put my baby in the car for a 14 hour drive and she did great. That's awesome. You know Uh a week later, you know, which is kind of nowish. She's just started this this phase of Screaming like a banshee at us constantly. So I'm just happy that like that phase in her development started now And not when we were in a 14 hour car ride going to Chicago Well, when you're that young, I mean what 13 or 14 months like a week is like a pretty big portion of your life Right. So yeah, so those changes happen week by week, but uh, you'll get through it. It's so fast, man Oh, yeah, it goes fast. So Uh, cool tim. Well, why don't we kind of as we wrap up here? I mean, I think we you did a great job covering everything. Um, is there anything you want to share with Maybe the last thing I'll ask is like, is there any Misconceptions about symbols indie symbol smithing anything like that that you hear that you want to like Kind of dispel any any rumors like your top rumor that you think needs to be put to bed Yeah, I I would just encourage people To trust their own ears trust their own eyes and trust their own ears because if you look at the symbol market today You see a lot of fancy Glitz and glam and marketing campaigns. That's meant To to convince you that the symbol they're showing you is Is the dream symbol for you? And so it's a lot of it is like trick tricky marketing tactics It's a lot of it is just using a famous drummer who is an endorser and it's like, hey, you want to sound like You know mark juliana or do you want to sound like matt garska? Like Then buy this symbol and you'll sound like matt garska That I don't have any problem with that kind of stuff, but my encouragement is like Just you pull yourself back from brand loyalty You know, and maybe that's selfish to say because I'm you know trying to sell symbols But really like pull yourself back from brand loyalty Use your own eyes trust your own ears and do a little bit of work to understand The instruments that you want to purchase And you'll be way better set up to to to achieve your goal, you know, sure I'm you know, I I like to tell people in the podcast because I interview other symbol smiths my I interview my competition And my entire goal with that podcast is to get them to talk about their thing And promote their thing and and it's like hey if you want to get a mangello symbol Mangello has a voice mic mic has a voice with his symbols And they're different. It's different than my symbol. So you might want to create a collection of Of symbols that you use on your kit. Maybe you need one of my symbols for a certain sound But maybe you want a dave calling wood A craig lords and anna mangello and that's going to give you the collection of flavors that you need to Express yourself on the instrument. So I would love for us, you know to to step away from the brand loyalty stuff And just start trusting our own ears and we can trust our ears if we do a little bit of work to understand You know the stuff I was talking about the shapes of symbols kind of what makes a symbol sound the way that it does I try to put a lot of content like that in my youtube channel And you know little things to think about like playing techniques and You know things that you can look for and the goal is not so that people only buy my stuff The goal is that they're equipped To go out and find the thing that they want because I've spent thousands of dollars on symbols That I hate it and I just turned around and I sold them It's it's the it's the age old thing of drummers. We buy we sell we buy we sell we collect Things go in our closet. They collect dust Eventually we remember about them then we sell them, you know, it's like yeah Yeah, I would love for us to just enter an age where the consumer is as informed as possible And can make a really good decision that they feel confident about yeah It's a cool ecosystem where like uh like round sound and these symbol websites and symbol swap where people can like Go and try symbols and hear them and you guys are making them and people are selling them and they're you know They have examples you can hear online and there's drum shows we can go and hear it and it's just a cool world And I think it's very neat and it's just like supporting your independent local business You are supporting independent Uh, not local really, but you're supporting independent artists creating symbols. It's very cool I love zilgin too. I love sabian. I love all these big brands You're allowed to like them all but it's pretty cool when you're you're buying a symbol from like Let's say tim or from any of the other guys that that you can you're really Making an impact on them with that order where maybe the big guys, you know, not so much with that one symbol Isn't isn't as big of a deal, but I know with with the the smaller Independent guys and girls it really is. Um, so yeah Very cool, uh, tim. Why don't you share as we wrap up where people can find you social media all that good stuff Yeah, so my website is reveredrums.com I've got my stackering stuff I've got um, I've got the timothy roberts symbols I've got a commission form if you want to me to make you a custom symbol And then I've got the reveredrums. It kind of all lives under that website I've got accounts social media accounts for all the different brands and I post I'm on I'm on my phone a lot more than I would like to be but you kind of have to do that in this day and age Um, my email is tim at reveredrums.com. That's r e v e r i e d r u m s dot com I'm also on email a lot. So if you have questions, feel free to ask I'm I usually talk with people and kind of try it especially with commissions. I'm I'm diving into their playing Technique what sticks do they use? Where do they want to play their symbol? Like that stuff is all important And that stuff isn't really addressed when you're just going to a big box manufacturer and just clicking buy On a symbol. So yeah, yeah Very cool. Okay, everyone check that out and and then do your own homework as well and look online and find all the independent makers And there's a ton out there. So Big thank you to first off Sean Meeks for doing the patreon, you know supporting the show there Thanks to Rob Hart for connecting us. Thank you to Gabriel Martinez GM designs symbols Which is another independent symbol maker. He said he does a lot of he does all kinds of unique things You heard an ad earlier in the in the show for him, which he's He is supporting me by Which helps support the independent symbols. It's just a cool. It's a cool loop. Yeah big cool loop. So Tim has been great to meet you man. I hope your family's doing great. I hope you guys, you know You get through the baby phase, which you're doing fine. I'm sure so Awesome. So everyone check out reverie drums Look it up on youtube. I think that's a great place to start obviously your website But reverie drum co is a really cool channel and check it out there. So tim. Thank you for being here, my friend Thank you, and I'm a big fan of your podcast. I actually have listened to many hours of you talk. So it's a it's a big honor