 December the 4th, meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. We will let members and staff reduce themselves. Eric Gilbertson, member. Martha Smurfsky, member. Benjamin Ciney, member. Steve Everett, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Okay, we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. Okay, so I'm going to share my screen. This is mostly for people watching via Orca media. But some of the things I say are going to be for everybody. All right, for anyone viewing tonight's design review committee meeting via Orca media, you can participate in the meeting via the zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. For the full video experience, type this link into your web browser. And I will see that you're looking to get into the meeting and let you in. The other option is to use this call in number and then put in this meeting ID. Again, you'll go into the waiting room and I will see that you want to come in. If anyone has problems accessing the meeting, please email me at mcrandall at montpelier-vt.org. I will be monitoring my email throughout the meeting. For those attending via Zoom, turning your video on is optional. We do ask the people to keep their microphones on mute when they're not speaking. This reduces background noise. And please restrict the Zoom chat function for troubleshooting or logistics questions only. Please note that in the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will be continued to a time and place certain on their hand the meeting back over to the chair. If everyone's had a chance to look at the applications, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. All second. All in favor of the agenda speak your names. Martha. Ben. And Steve. So the agenda is approved. And unless anybody has anything else to add, we can move to the first application, which is the continuation of one school street applicant hood and air review exterior renovations. Is someone there from hood and air? Yes, John Ray Hill is going to speak on behalf of hood and air. Okay. And that was Tim. So we are here to provide some more detail as requested from the last meeting. Thank you all for braving the weather and conducting this meeting because I know the owner is excited about getting going. Did you all have a chance to see the revised elevations and details? Look down. Yes. I'm still a little confused about what the windows on the lower floor on the school street side are going to look at. What I've got in front of me is still some lines drawn through the windows. And I'm really unable to picture what that's going to look like. I'm not sure you have the latest. Because that was a concern on the first submission, but we've done colored construction drawings to give you a better idea. Are you still, is that what you're looking at? Let's be sure we're looking at the updated submission. Well, I'm looking at what I was given over the weekend. There should be the additional stuff towards the back. I think you've got the full packet, Martha. I can't, I don't know if Martha can see it. I cannot see it. I can't see it. Yeah, she's restricted to phone. There we go. So Martha, do you look at the back? Can you find it? Yeah, I see new submissions, but they still just look like black squares to me. And that really is not, it doesn't help me. That's actually the point here. We have a sort of interesting challenge, and that is to show you a pattern where we hope you really can't tell what the pattern is. So these are windows in the middle of what's otherwise an insulated panel. And they'll be very subtle, be a very subtle difference between the two. There's, if somebody wanted to have a very good example of how well this works, the addition to the Gary home has a little porch facing north, and they have a series of white columns, and between it is some configuration of windows that you can't quite tell what, whether it's a couple of double hungs or whatever, but it's very effective in showing off the columns and not showing off the windows. So I think this is a good representation. I don't know how to make it more distinct without misrepresenting it. The drawing on the left shows the details of how we're going to do this. We're raising the floor 18 inches so we couldn't, even if you said it has to be glass all the way down, it'd be very hard to put a window below the framing, and it doesn't make sense since these are going to be apartments to have a bedroom with floor to ceiling glass. So this was our attempt at emphasizing the historic character again and still having it work functionally as apartments. I do recall that you're concerned the last time was in making some windows that would give the privacy to the apartments involved. So I do see that. I'm assuming these windows are fixed glass. That is correct on this facade. That's correct. Okay, and there are three windows. Is that still a doorway in the middle? That is still an existing doorway that goes to the second floor apartments, and that we're keeping the existing door. And if you look, this is maybe instructional. In the earlier submission, there's a photograph of the existing. Let me see if I can't find it. And that's got an existing bronze commercial door in the opening, and it actually sort of disappears. I don't see it here, but that would stay just as it is. Okay. No, it's quite effective. It's going to be quite effective in receding while these bright columns are going to pop out just like the old building. Right. John, are the entire, the black panels are going to be behind glass? The windows are going to be glass as if they were windows? No, we'll pick a black aluminum panel as if you were doing a building with storefront and parts of it. Not glass, but an insulated panel. They'll be black, painted aluminum. One of the important things about windows is their reflectivity, how they reflect light. Yeah. And if those are going to be fixed glass windows, I would think the black panels up behind the glass would make it even less visible that you had added that. I wonder if they make a shiny or a glass. I don't think it's a good idea to put a piece of glass and then insulate behind it that's apt to fog up without being able to maintain it. So I hate to suggest that we could certainly try to get it shiny a piece of metal as possible. How agree with the glass and the metal, how was that going to be joined and divided? Well, do you see the detail on that same elevation? Put them up on the screen, please. These windows are going to have a frame and they'll be black. And again, I think there's such a good example over there on the Gary home that's worth looking at how effective that is. You really can't tell what type of window because the black of the window frame and the windows pattern all disappear within this nice pattern of lighter columns. So I think this is going to work as well as possible. You don't recall right off, but maybe you can help me. On the older pictures you have, the one with the horses in them, are there panels below the windows? I doubt it, but no, I don't see pan. The windows fall into the ground? They do. Of course, in the picture, there's stuff in the windows. I mean, that was a store. Yeah, but usually there's a panel below the window. Maybe, but from what the one I can see, I wouldn't guarantee that. It only shows really one window effectively. And there's stuff. There might be a panel in the bottom foot. Yeah, I can't. I can't. Is anybody? I see the two windows on the Elm Street side in your picture that show the glass going all the way down. Well, those are actually panels and windows, very similar, because that's an apartment beyond. Again, it's very hard to demonstrate an attempt to have you not notice it. But those are windows as well for the apartment. And so, real quick, I'm looking at your section elevation. Yes. Section two, and I see a line, which I think is the drywall plane on the inside. And I'm assuming that it is just, there's not actually drywall in front of the window. That line is there from a section cut. I guess the question is, if I was on the street and I put my hands up against the window, I would be able to see in there if I wanted to. Correct. If somebody didn't. Okay, so we're not. Okay, yeah. It's a window, yeah. Yeah, it's a full-on window. Yeah. And they'll probably need curtains or perhaps. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Privacy, but yeah, this is a compromise between. And we didn't think they needed all of them windows. So, if you'll notice, the second panel is all, the second opening between peers is all panel. And the existing commercial door that goes up to the second floor will have panel around it and panel above. And if we recreate this, this. The treatment and the corner door, what's now a corner door is the same. The corner door, the corner door is going to be turned into a window. And then the door is moved around to Elm Street. And the reason for that is that we're raising the floor 18 inches. And we got to get people outside without having, without having this platform and steps that are even higher than they are now. We can't have that interfere with the city sidewalk. So, if you look at the plan on elevation one, you'll see that by moving that the entrance door around to what is currently bricked over, you can't even see that last opening between pilasters. But it's, you know, if you look from the inside, you can see that. And also the old photographs that that was, that was there. So, once again, we're emphasizing the pilasters and trying to de-emphasize what's going on within them. I realize this is sort of out of our purview, but how do you get to the apartment on the river side? Like I know that entry door goes up the stairs. And then there's, or what the layout is, or is that, I guess what I'm wondering is there like, how do you get to that other apartment? Which other apartment? Well, I don't know what's on the inside. I'm imagining a hallway. Which upstairs, Ben? No, where the like deli side of the store used to be. I'm assuming that's an apartment that goes out onto the balcony. Well, so you're talking about the first floor. Yes, first floor behind. So there's two apartments and imagine, and so there's a very crudely, there's a line that goes from Elm Street to the river. Yes. So one apartment is all on the school street exposure and the other apartment is all to the south. All the bedrooms in each apartment face the river and have access to the balcony. So basically all these school street windows are looking into one apartment. That's correct. That is accessed by that one new entry that you're putting. Okay, that's correct. Yeah. So the living area is on the corner. And then we think it's going to make the bedrooms quite nice to be facing the river and have the quiet and privacy of the river as well as operable windows. Yeah. Yeah. And to follow that up on one of your designs here, you have an indication of a new stoop at Ray's doorway to the back porch. And this is on the school street porch side. I'm following how that would work. This is on the river side. Correct. So if you go further along in the packet, we did a much more detailed drawing of before and after. And once again, if you look very closely, you can see what we're trying to not just let you see, which is rather than modify the existing balcony that's on the outside of the porch, we have to raise up a landing to get out from the raised floor level. So we're going to do a little platform that doesn't go all the way out the width of the porch. And you'll see, if you look very carefully, that there's a black railing there, which we intentionally want to receive. And that minimizes the impact on the existing railing visually. Okay. Does that entryway there break through the guardrail that's over the bridge? No. No, that's closed off now and will remain so. You can sort of see it. You see it's. Yeah. I mean, John, do you even need a railing there? Do we need a railing? Yeah. Yes. By code, we need to. It's more than a 30-inch drop from where you exit the door down to the deck of the porch. No, that's railing, I think only, let's see, what do we have there? No, that's only 18 inches. So that is only three feet tall. But you'll notice, and again, you have to look pretty carefully, that at some point they put a black bar above the existing railing, because it's further than the end of the river. So we won't make that stoop railing any higher than it has to be. Because if you fell off that, you'd be falling onto the porch, not the river. Right. Right. Right. We understand that, I think. I'm not convinced you need a railing there, but what do I know? But you might be able to add a handrail just as you come out the door. We're going up 18 inches. Michelle can answer that. I'm just some person. Well, that's a good point, Ben. Let me check that, because I don't know whether this is a step down now, or whether it's totally flush, that might make the difference. But that's worth checking, because we don't need it. It's totally flush, John. Then we might be able to eliminate the four-inch spindle. Yeah. Well, that might be able to go away, but you'll have to check with Michelle. And we have to keep it far enough away. See, I have to check to make sure it's far enough away from the other railing. I think it ought to be three feet away before you fall off the platform and then into the river. It's right next to it, of course, I couldn't do it. But that's worth checking. That's a good suggestion. What's the width of the deck? Six feet. So an 18-inch drop would require at least three steps. So three times 12 is 36. So once you came down the steps, you would only have three feet left. The other thing is that even if you have three steps without a railing on the sides, it drops off the entire 18 inches. So just for safety's sake, the steps should wrap around all sides, so nobody's stepping off of it. Yeah, I think I would still recommend a railing at the edge, because somebody didn't stagger straight out the door and trip. But it might not need the four-inch spindles. That's mostly my point in that it could just be a less visual thing. Yeah, good suggestion. And again, whatever code requires, but the least amount that's considered safe and functional would be fine. Yeah, I think what we have to check is I think that that 18-inch limitation has to be within three feet of the platform, and we're pretty close there. But I will check that, and we will not do more than we need to. I can assure you. Okay. Okay, back to these windows. Yes. The steel that is going to be the panel, that's going to be just painted black? Well, no, the glass companies, if you look at commercial buildings, they often have insulated panels associated with a commercial storefront. So these are pre-painted, very durable aluminum pieces that typically have some urethane adhered to them, which keeps them flush and keeps them warping. So that's the concept, is that Acme Glass will have a panel that they typically use as part of storefronts. They're usually anodized colored panels, either either black or brown, dark browns, or whatever color you request. Exactly, and we said steel, but they would be iridescent, painted aluminum. Okay. The front, the existing corner door is just going to be filled in with glass, the same way you're doing the side doors. Correct. That's in the living room, so that's going to have a window, but the one to the east of that is going to be a solid panel. Any other suggestions? And you're going to replicate the brackets along the roof line, the corners, along the top of the windows? We'll show a detail, and we had shown that in the previous submission, we're going to copy the pilasters that are on the Elm Street side, and show that to the contractor, and he says, yeah, I think we can duplicate that. So, yes, it will be as in the other half of the building. What about the brackets? Are you going to replicate those as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quick suggestion, when they did all the brackets on College Hall, up at the Vermont College, they used a CNC device. They took a bracket and scanned it, and were able to run it through a CNC machine and get an exact duplicate. I think that was Connor Construction that did that. Yeah, it was. That was our project. But I think that would get an exact replica for the small number of brackets you have. But that's worth it or not. Yeah, that's a good suggestion. John, I'm curious what other thoughts you had about these windows. I don't know that I have another idea in this moment, and it feels like a very big architectural gesture to take away, to go back, A, you're doing a better job than what's there, period. And then, B, making that gesture to go back to those old storefront glass, which was clearly beautiful and ideal, and that you're trying to bring that back. I greatly appreciate it, and I can let you see that in the building without necessarily duplicating it. I guess I'm wondering if there were other ideas that you had before this kind of black aluminum for how to accomplish that. Just curious, mostly, because I do see the effort that you're making here, and I appreciate it. Well, I think this is a wonderful example of how powerful color is as a tool to make things recede and make things come forward. And if we were doing black columns and white windows, it wouldn't work. But this, I think, and again, that example, I just happened to notice driving by at the Gary home, and I said, look at that nice porch, and I said, oh my God, he's got some windows, some pattern of windows in there, but you can't tell. And that's the whole point, is that we want these columns to be so strong that the thing, that window trim and the horror of the black horizontal and how shiny the panel is versus the glass, and Eric brings up a good point that it's black sometimes, but at night it's not going to be black. But I think it's really using the tool of color most effectively to make a very strong replication of the handsome old building. I don't know, I mean, what I like about that effectiveness of the color is that you can leave the existing bronze door going after the second floor, and it's going to be fine. You know, that's not going to, that bronze door front is not a, that doesn't fit any, in any way, the style of this building, but it's going to disappear. So I think it's a very forgiving scheme. John, I know you showed us the pictures, but I'm still wondering about some panels down along the street, because that black is going to show all the splash salt and everything. That's true. That's a downside of another dark color or a non-dirt color who has a black vehicle. Anybody who has a black vehicle knows that. We can look, see what they have for a super shiny black. They may have a gloss that is, you know, very similar to a window. I mean, if there's a window there, you'd still have to clean it. So I think our goal is to try to get it as close in texture as smooth as a piece of glass. There's going to be a frame, a wood frame in between around the window part, the glass part, the real wood. Probably not, probably not wood. We'll probably go to a more durable material, but I think there'll be a frame around the window and a frame around the panel. You know, delicate, small. Yes. Again, painted black, disappearing black. Part of me thinks this is a tacky idea, but I'm going to say it anyhow. The photographs that you have here, and I know the photographs of this building and its historical place and, like, how long it ran as a continuously as a store and the iterations that it's gone through are really interesting. And I think you're making an excellent effort to do a modern take on realizing that buildings don't, like, stay stuck in time like humans, they change over time. And having access to all those photographs, tell a really interesting story and whether there was a way to kind of like somehow use those photographs in one of those panels as just a way to sort of show the history of the building, I think would be I'm toying with it whether I like the idea or not, but I think those photographs are powerful and your efforts are good. I wonder whether, that's a good point, I wonder whether you could do, I mean, one of the things that's missing and going to be missing is you know, the so-and-so market. And I'm wondering whether you could, looking at the old sign, it's not a very nice one, but I wonder whether you could somehow put the old so-and-so market up on the sign bank. And you know, have that make people realize that it was both commercial but no longer. You don't want people knocking at the door and saying, isn't this the old, can I get a quart of milk? That's an interesting idea. It's a thought, I don't know, but it's just a it's going to be kind of blank, you know, sort of like the Elm Street side, but that's an interesting idea. I don't think the idea is crazy at all. I'm thinking about, there's a lot of blank wall along the Elm Street between the two storefronts on Elm Street and just a panel and frame there with photographs, historic photographs of the building. But we have a pretty easy thing to do. Well, there's a big blank wall between the two apartments on the Elm Street. That could be a very nice display case. It's not really sort of part of the architecture, but this is a pretty cool photograph. I think Ben's absolutely right. It's really neat to see the historic photographs of what this corner store was like over the years. Yeah. And even the photographs of it being ugly with the way it kind of is right now with what you're the improvement that you're making to it. Yeah, absolutely. Because people will say, yeah, it's always like, it's always been like this. Right. Tim, what do you think of that idea? Yeah. I mean, I'd like to see it drawn up and stuff, but there's certainly a way we can get it incorporated the historic history of the building. I'm not against that. It's a cool building and it's got a cool history and I appreciate the effort that you're putting into it. And I think you need to be able to tell a story to people walking by. But again, you're not wrong. If it feels like something you're excited about, that's great. If a noodle about it. Yeah, no. I don't think it adds a lot of expense. And again, I'm sure John can do it in a tasteful way that it looks good. Yeah. We've got a signed band now. I mean, we're proposing a signed band, but it's going to be empty. I don't like the idea of a sign of market. I think that does add confusion. But I think you'd have to say former on the song. Yeah. Otherwise, you'd be giving a mixed message. Yeah. Yes. Oh, there you go. That's an idea. Yeah. We can certainly look at that. Uh, what was this? I'm trying to read what the name is. Anybody remember? This is the something grocery store looks like. Looks like it's a cash grocery store. Oh, cash. Cash was a Sweeney. Sweeney and Sweeney. Yeah. Yeah. The old city, I think the Kellogg Hubbard Library has the old city directories. And you could, uh, that has a listing of addresses of all the company, all the buildings in town. And they would probably have the address of exactly the title of the name of the store. Yeah. John, do you think couldn't air cash apartments to the work? You don't have, you don't qualify as a store owner. Oh, but. But I like the idea of you put apartments in there, then people aren't going to knock on the door. I have one, I have one last question. Was it, was there any more detail or any changes on the proposed raised mechanical room in front gate? Yes. Again, on that Elm Street elevation, um, we show, um, basically a dark stained wood gate. And, um, the two buildings don't line up. We didn't show that. The, uh, the other building on Elm Street that Jim, uh, is renovating is a foot back from the front door. So I think Eric suggested that we try to get that gate so that when it's open, it doesn't go beyond the front of the building. And we can, using the existing, uh, steps that are there, which are huge, granted steps, we can get it so that the one gate swings out, the other swings in, and it doesn't go beyond the front of the, uh, uh, it goes to put beyond the other one. But I think that'll be, you know, you'd have to, we're going to have steps outside the apartment so people aren't going to be walking into it. Uh, yeah, it's going to keep people three feet away. So I think, again, we're trying to show something that you can't see, which is not easy, but the dark stain and you really won't see what's behind it. We've got to go to some gymnastics to, uh, get access to the two, uh, entry points to the basements and they're different on either side. But I think we can, one of the gates has to be lower than the other, um, as I think we showed in the permission. But I think it's all going to be disappearing by, by having vertical boards that are staying black. Okay. I think that earlier submission shows what we're working with here for steps and, uh, access points. So we don't have a lot of wiggle room as to how we make that work, but I think this will very much receive visually. Okay. Does anyone have any additional questions, comments or suggestions, or we can go through the criteria sheet for the project? My only comment is significant appreciation for taking the time to come back to us with more, more and better renderings that give us a greater idea of what you're doing. Okay. You're welcome. So I can read down through the criteria for all projects. Number one, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. Uh, the removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided, although in this case, uh, the removal of the newer materials is, is a bonus. Uh, character defining features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved. The deteriorated character defining features shall be repaired. In this particular case, uh, that the modernization is being removed to restore the original appearances. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or chemical or physical treatments, such as sand biasing, shall not be approved. Uh, and this is acceptable for this application. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old, but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties. It's acceptable location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment trash, storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact and adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable alterations to buildings called for by public safety, accessibility and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible, acceptable for parcels with both river and street frontage development shall be oriented so that both river and street besides are primary materials on the river side of a structure shall be of equal character and quality as those on the street side. Both facades should incorporate fenestration detailing and other building components that are dimensionally proportional and are pedestrian friendly acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm. The visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings windows and doors and the facade of a building shall create a rhythm patterns of solids and openings shall be preserved to the extent feasible acceptable signage removal when removing a sign evidence of the signs installation must be removed to the greatest extent practicable acceptable outdoor lighting fixtures the structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the buildings building and comparable compatible with the neighborhood acceptable landscaping screening and site furnishings mechanical equipment screening is acceptable. Windows and doors on historic structures character defining windows and door patterns placement sizes proportions and original features such as trim sash and molding shall be preserved to the extent possible when preservation is not possible such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced such replacements must be compatible with the historic building style materials and architectural features acceptable porches and stairs on historic structures the location of porches ramps and stairs shall be placed in a manner that does not impact or undermine the original and significant ornamentation or detailing of the existing building stairs ramps and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect and be compatible with the historic and important design features of existing buildings and new construction stairs and ramps shall be designed in a manner with details and materials that provide the most sensitive and compatible structure and that fits the building design and layout acceptable all in favor of the application speak your names Eric Ben this is Martha I say yes and Steve says yes so it's approved it's unanimous for in favor thank you for coming back and thanks for your good work with the building I think it's going to look really nice thank you Eric thank you everyone yes thank you have a great holiday thank you thank you for your time and effort and best of luck with your project thanks Steve see everyone bye Mary thank you bye we can move to the next application which is her 44 main street owner Ajax moving in storage Hugo's review the new projecting sign is someone from the applicant's present hey Steve Tom greens here from Hugo's hi Tom how are you good so I yeah so I hope you're signed for us thank you I you know I'll do my best my knowledge of this honestly is a little bit inch deep because I'm not the designer but I think this is a relatively straightforward blade sign it's in keeping with the historic character the building it is it is in keeping with what Meredith and staff suggested where we should put a sign which is right above our opening the lighting is already pre-existing it's already installed there so we're asking for a simple Hugo's blade sign that is also I think in keeping with kind of this big easy niche for the restaurant it's subtle it doesn't say as you say as I'd say Hugo's bar and grill a simple Hugo sign that comes out and we're also asking for the placement of a magnetic menu that we can put on the outside so people understand exactly what we're doing upstairs and that's that's about it so if you happen to answer any questions you might have just a quick question the magnetic menu is on the on the wall to my left isn't going in the door there's like that short little section of wall correct it goes on it goes on the brick there in oh I see it now I see it sorry I see it and there already is a light in place there I think from previous restaurants having a menu there yeah yeah okay yeah both both signs look fine so far the only comment is that any any of the anchors for the signs be placed in the mortar joints between the bricks and not in the bricks themselves correct any members have any questions comments or suggestions no no I'm good with it looks fine okay then I'll quickly read through the criteria for the sign size location design color texture lighting and material of all exterior signs within the design review district shall be compatible with the building and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable number two where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and signed bands on historic structures acceptable if a building has multiple tenants there shall be consistency and placement in size among all signs acceptable it is recommended that sign placement be centered over building entries acceptable sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining materials on the building and again the anchors should be placed in the mortar joints between the bricks in masonry buildings again fasteners shall be in the mortar joints acceptable sign design color and topography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be of the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable sign support structures shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves acceptable all in favor of the two signs speak your names this is Martha I say yes Ben Ben and Steve says yes so it's four in favor thank you for everything I'm going to describe the next Tom so we will get that printed out as soon as possible do you want us to email you when it's ready versus dealing with the mail that would be great Meredith thank you you're welcome thank you Tom thanks everybody is everybody headed to review and look at the meeting minutes from November the 20th yeah and I'll make a motion to accept them the way they're written all second all in favor speak your names there Martha then minutes are approved does anyone have any other business or comments at this point should for Meredith uh is anything the arcade miles is anything going to you heard about anything those are going to do there I haven't heard anything from them at this point it occurred to me driving by that that is a a huge amount of vacant space awfully close to the downtown it's probably occurred to other people maybe it's also probably the only place to have that same business reopened yes you know a lot of people have been missing being able to get your lumber that close yeah I just I just have big feelings about it I love the young lumber yard there but so much uh so many ideas for rec centers and things like that yeah no I haven't heard anything Meredith have we heard anything more about our two members that was my question um so they will hopefully be appointed next week okay I've just with everything going on things are crazy so I didn't end up getting an invite out to them for tonight's meeting unfortunately okay it would be lovely to have more people on agreed you don't think we're opinionated about we need more opinions right did we do it anything else or do I hear a motion to adjourn no move all second all in favor of adjournment speak your names Ben Steve meeting is adjourned thank you all for coming