 So what do people with antisocial personality disorder usually get for treatment, what in general do they usually get? Well, usually they don't get much treatment for this disorder which is the problem. Often it's a disorder that leads to exclusion from treatment. So this is a group that's very under-treated even though there's a vast amount of people with this disorder and also with the comibid drug and alcohol disorder. So it's a huge problem and this disorder is actually the most frequent disorder you see within personality disorder. So there's a huge request for treatment for this group. Normally they would get, of course there is attempts to treat them and they would probably get contingency management and some sorts of cognitive treatment, problem-solving treatment, but not very rarely treatment that really targets the disorder as such. So have you ever had to exclude anyone from receiving treatment? Well, our hope and our aim was to include them in treatment and not exclude them. So we wanted to shift the attitudes also among treatment providers to say, yes they are difficult, yes they get angry, yes they can be manipulating, but that's no reason to exclude them, that's because they have antisocial personality disorder. So let's see, can we talk with them about the disorder, can we help them identify it and can we help them maybe think about and if they want to change and make some changes in their lifestyle. So tell me about the impulse of lifestyle counselling program, what does it involve? Yeah, it involves six sessions, it's an outpatient program so it's quite short and it involves six sessions and it's called, I should say, we've been very inspired by Glenie Walters who's developed the lifestyle theory and the lifestyle change program which is for people in prisons but we've shortened it for the outpatient format, so it's individual six sessions and in these sessions you are psychoeducational so it's not about getting big insight, it's more about helping and supporting the patients in identifying problems related to antisocial behavior and then contemplating, considering does it make sense to change the behavior and then also support those who engage in change of behavior. So do you think you can really make a difference in the patient's life in just six sessions? Well gladly to say, our research shows that it does make a difference and also I think it's important to state that it's made a huge difference in the attitudes toward this group shifting from instead of being a diagnosis of exclusion, it's now a diagnosis of interest and we can work with them, it's quite simple, you can learn the program in a day and a half and then you can actually offer the patient something relevant. So of course it's not a great effect but this program was not meant to, of course you cannot reach a great effect in six sessions if you turn up to all six sessions but you can engage people and you can make them feel like there's an offer and that targets some problems that they experience in their lives without them being judged because if they feel like they're being judged and told to alter behavior then they won't show up for the sessions. So in that way I think we've developed a program that shifts attitudes among the treatment providers and the patients. So during the sessions do you ever talk about the patient's childhood and maybe what happened earlier on in life that could have triggered their antisocial personality disorder? Well the workbooks are not aimed at that. They're very aimed at now and here and what can help you now and here but of course the patients will have lots of explanations and reasons which also can be explained by childhood traumas or experiences and I'm sure that now I'm not giving the treatment but of course if it comes up you have to pay attention and pay respect for that and it might be helping identifying why they have this behavior now but the sessions are one hour and you need to keep focus on what you talk about so you cannot, the trigger is not to let the patients go out on a tangent and maybe spend half an hour talking about it. It could be helpful but it could also be a way of blaming others for the situation. So we have this, we've told the treatment providers always get back to the subject to the focus of the session and say we're here now, it's you who are here let's talk about what we can do, what you can do to help you now because otherwise we don't really help the patients either. Okay, well thank you for talking to me about that. You're very welcome.