 All right, so I'll just quickly introduce myself again. This is the session on disrupting the status quo. It's a very broad title for this, which you'll see why in a moment. So I'm Angie with the Center for Cultural Innovation here with this initiative called Ambitious. Me next? Yeah. Great. I'm Esteban Kelly with the U.S. Federation of Worker Co-ops and I don't need to say about the project yet. Not yet. I'm getting that after. Okay. All right, and I'm Deborah Fries with the Boston Impact Initiative. Lauren Ruffin with Crocs. Great. So this is the time to talk about your projects because each one of you are up here because you're doing something disruptive. But before you start, I actually want to give you our definition of how we're seeing disruption just as a way to frame this up. So we're not looking at disruption as it would be innovation for innovation's sake. Like just because it's new or something untried, that's not good enough. What we're looking for are things where, are activities where there is clearly a market there for the things that you're doing and that has been largely untapped, not from like an enterprise point of view, but in terms of a market that would drive social change and behavioral change, right? So does that help kind of maybe give you some context for talking about, and actually for Esteban, I'd love it if you would talk actually about a little bit as context for US FWC, but why you guys are looking at the smart EU project. But does that give you a little bit of a context about like this untapped need out there a little bit? Okay. You want to go? I'll go. Okay. Okay, so Crux is a new cooperative, very, very new. We're like a little baby. We just were born two days ago. Thanks to Francesca and Jason's, and her colleague Jason's work. But what we really are exploring is immersive storytelling. So for those of you who don't know, we're talking about virtual reality, augmented reality, mixed reality, location-based sort of entertainment experiences that are really at the very sort of bleeding edge of where storytelling is going and where our world is going. And we're working to get black artists sort of deeply embedded in that work. And so we're supporting artists from education and sort of awareness and education. So how do you get it in play with these tools? The cost of them ranges from being relatively inexpensive, a $299 360 video camera, all the way up to tens of thousands of dollars for sort of a high-end sort of volumetric video experience. The VR, AR industry is poised to be about a $41 billion industry in the next three to four years. There are no black people really working on, I should say there are a lot of thinkers, but no one's really thinking about how do we organize to really capture how we're going to operate in those spaces. So a couple of just quick data points. Several years ago, a study was done that said when black and brown kids play immersive games online, they, 40% of them play as white male avatars because they've already experienced racism and sexism in virtual spaces. If you happen to see Ready Player One with the Oasis, Facebook announced that they have essentially built the Oasis last month when we were at Oculus six, Oculus six, and so you have a company like Facebook really building the world that we're all going to inhabit moving into the future. So I'm concerned about that and really see Crux as being an opportunity for us to get in early as opposed to being an afterthought like we have in the film industry, the films were over 110 years. We're just now talking about Oscars so white. So what happens if we get in at the beginning and really try to sort of get in right now and make our impact felt. That's awesome. The disruption level is deeper and more abstract and a little hard to get at. The surface level is Boston Impact is a place-based integrated capital fund focused on closing the racial wealth divide. We are, you know, and the Boston Ujima Project is something that we helped design and co-create. So the design of what we did where you're democratizing the capital stacks so non-accredited investors can participate, shifting, disaggregating capital and power, having entrepreneurs of color and working class folks be able to access all kinds of integrated capital. All of those pieces are the core of what we're doing. We've been doing that since 2013. Underneath that, for me, is where another layer of disruption is which has to do, to go out to left on a limb here for a minute, has to do with biomimicry and finance. So what I mean by that is we are still operating collectively in dominant culture from a industrial or mechanical mindset about the world where the world is perceived as causal, linear, and predictable and we design the tools that support the world for extraction, profit maximization, resource extraction, growth and efficiency all measured through quarterly returns, the heart of our capitalist model. Then you've got the world of impact investing trying to do something better based on that same root system. Nothing in that ideology is different except to talk about, let's say, for example, the popular word concessionary. When you talk about concessionary returns, concessionary to a paradigm that's fundamentally flawed and you're not changing the root belief system. So then there's all this yay concessionary investing going on out there, which means we haven't changed anything. So the question that we're in is what is a real disruption to our habituated way of thinking about finance which is really like water to an ecosystem, right? Where it flows, people thrive, where it doesn't flow, people, organisms wither and shrivel. Biomimicry is the notion of what can we learn from nature about how you create thriving ecosystems for all organisms. And so we are in the inquiry about how do you design finance to work like nature, right? So nature invests in the whole system. Nature is compelled toward biodiversity. There are things, and I'll just give you one example and then we can maybe get into this later because I know the abstraction is a little difficult, but in, so one example for how we use it is workplace-based fund, a mature hardwood forest in New England grows at a rate of three to 4% a year. A bamboo forest grows at a rate of 35% a year, colonizes everything in its path for destroying all subspecies. Does that sound like Wall Street? Right? So when you think about designing risk and return, designing a return, on what basis do you select a return? It can't be a basis that compares to the previous market because that paradigm, we've seen what that paradigm has given in it. So if we can design in my place a 3% return on a note, for example, that's modeling with nature. And then we can also look at like, what is the role of incumbent institutions, the big institutions like oak trees? What are the roles of network institutions like fungal networks? So anyway, there's a lot of abstraction there, maybe we can explore it, but the takeaway for me is how do we fundamentally shift our lens around where we look for modeling for finance that can support thriving local ecosystems, which means including all of us. I want to riff on the bio memory as an introduction to the U.S. Federation of Worker Cogs. And part of that is, especially for live streamed people, if you like Google our logo real quick or our website, you'll see it includes two overlapping nature right, baked right into our logo. One is the twin pines, which many of you are familiar with cooperatives. The idea that trees, their root systems are actually can grow better and have a better chance of survival and thriving long-term by growing up as a cohort together. They lean on each other. They're more resilient to the fire and other kinds of elements. So that's sort of a classic, especially throughout the America's symbol of cooperation is the idea of twin pines growing up together. So we have that, but then we also have this other piece that we adapted from the International Worker Co-op Movement, which is a flock of birds in our case because we're based in North America as the U.S. Federation of Worker Co-ops. It's a Canadian geese, which you would think, okay, yeah, we maybe need to rethink that a little bit. But it turns out that geese, no, actually flip the script, it turns out that geese don't respect borders and don't adhere to that system. So that's very much in alignment with our thinking. A good chunk of our members are actually immigrants, particularly from Latin America and the Caribbean. And so, yeah, that's part of it too. There we go. But the idea is, and our logo says that we go farther, faster together, that actually the energy expended by any particular goose is it takes much less effort to be able to travel at a scale of migration, continental or intercontinental migration by being tied into a flock, that by flying in the forming of the in alignment, that we're able to cover more distance, expend less energy and be interdependent in a way that's also dynamic. It's the leadership within a flock actually shifts. And so that's our origin story. That's where we come from, that's what we do. Having been born in 2004, sort of 15 year anniversary now, from local ecosystems where worker co-op networks were strong in different pockets of the country. And so we finally sort of came together and formed a national one. And now we're linking up with some of our cousins over in Europe who have figured out a way of organizing freelancers in a way that we do think is genuinely disruptive. So SmartEU was started 20 years ago by just without any of the tech pieces, just by organizing themselves, aggregating their own funds and resources to advocate for their shared interests as freelancers who were doing different work, but primarily in the creative and artist industry. And over time they built up their own internal capital pool for a guaranteed payment. They built up these other systems that they've now codified into a cooperative organization and a platform. So they formalized their cooperative a couple of years ago. They're new to the cooperative space and have since expanded beyond Belgium into France and now Spain and Italy and Hungary and Germany and they're in eight or nine different countries in Western Europe. And they're interested in coming to North America. So what's the opportunity in terms of disruption? Well, we're looking at different reports and statistics that something on the order of 40% of the workforce within 10 years time is gonna be gig freelance in the US is gonna be gig freelance and contract workers. So that's a lot of people, right? And currently I think the freelancers union says there's 53 million people who even just right now identify as freelancers who they organize with. And they're another cousin ally who we collaborate with in doing this work. So putting together what worker cooperatives are doing and what freelancers are doing is sort of the Venn diagram of this project which is organizing in the US, a freelancer-owned platform cooperative. We see ownership right alongside the business work and the democracy work that we were talking about at COCAP yesterday. The Democracy at Work Institute was sort of presenting about this. As fundamentally shifting how we engage business, work, labor and the conditions of our work. And as the US Federation of Worker Cooperatives were the national grassroots membership organization for worker-owned cooperative businesses in the US. And so we're able to advocate, to provide technical assistance, guidance and to compare notes and sort of perfect what does it look like to iterate on democracy inside of the workplace and inside of our firms? So we're trying to bring all of those lessons into a relatively non-organized space which is this work around gig and freelance labor by pulling them together into a cooperative, by building in an ownership component of this thing. We can then adapt some of the tools of what SMART has done in the EU where they now have over 100,000 members and users in their platform and in their cooperative. And bringing that to the US. So there's- So actually I'm gonna hold on because I wanna ask a question to all of you of what your projects and your endeavors, what you're hoping it'll look like in just like a couple short years. And actually I just wanna raise of hands really quick who here has heard of SMART EU? So a few of you, yeah. As a way to sort of lead in in a very leading way I'll just say we can continue down this thread. Actually what do you want us to call it? Because I think calling it SMART EU for the US seems really awkward. Do you have a name for it or? In terms of what we're doing here. Right now it's in R&D phase but we're just calling it the freelance cooperative. The freelance cooperative, okay. It's to me, so I'll use that terminology. I mean we got interested in this because remembering that our origin story for ambitious is around artists and so many of them are freelancers, independent workers, the progenators of that popularized term gig workers, jazz musicians of the mid 20th century hustling from gig to gig. And in talking also with Freelancers Union find that the majority, the simple majority of all of their members nationwide are out of the creative industry sector. So this disproportionately affects artists in the US and when we first learned about SMART EU it was like wow to collectivize so many independent workers in a way to offer them legal protections, et cetera. So the question for each of you is what would it look like if you can envision things running successfully in like one to two years? And Deborah, I would love it if you would also talk about the popularizing of your model work because people often call on you to be like, okay you're in Boston, we're not in Boston, we wanna do this also. So maybe you could go first Esteban. Like what's the practical things that people are gonna get out of this? I think our vision for maybe I'll go with two years. Okay, yeah. Is that we're laying the foundation for something that can scale and eventually capture and organize Freelancers such that it becomes a no-brainer. If you're a Freelancer you just join on as a member and beneficiary and owner of this platform. So we're getting at the ownership, the asset building, all of that. But what the platform actually does then is it institutes a guaranteed payment fund. So whatever Freelance work you're doing, your guaranteed payment within a certain amount of time or R&D is figuring out what is the amount of time that makes sense in the US market which is a little different from in Europe. It also, so most tech platforms are market-facing and customer-facing. The whole conceit of the Freelancers cooperative is that it's actually labor-facing, it's internal, and it's largely hidden from the market. So where we are trying to find users, it's really just in organizing or enrolling the Freelancers themselves. Well, what then is the benefit to them? We take care of their taxes, their insurance liabilities, some of the research that goes into what kind of visas do you need in order to go do a photo shoot in Russia? What's the different levels of tax liability if you're living in a place like New York City where there's city taxes versus the state level versus federal? What sort of insurance do you need in different industries? So a lot of that stuff is like, whoa, these are creative people who are not very interested in going down a rabbit hole in research and all of that stuff. So it takes, we have professionals set up on the back end to do that in addition to bookkeeping and invoicing. And then we then become the bill collectors. So the Freelancer isn't, and again, I've been a Freelancer, I know what it's like to not invoice your people in a timely way, just sort of drag your feet on that because you're worried about the work or other things or hustling the next gig. Well, also wage theft. Wage theft, and so the cooperative itself becomes the workplace that the Freelancer, you're now a worker owner or an employee within that cooperative, where we're chasing down the clients, we are sending those invoices in a timely way, we're sending automated reminders and we're much likely to get that payment. And meanwhile, because we're aggregating everyone else's fees that are flowing into the cooperative, we can guarantee that you're getting paid and you don't even have to worry about it. We need to take care of it. And then I think beyond that, there's a lot of confluence in what we're already doing for worker cooperatives around aggregating the needs of the workers themselves and the businesses for collective bargaining. So let's all get health insurance together. Let's all get life insurance or liability insurance or different business insurance. There are ways that we could go to market and get, let's get QuickBooks software that is at a price point that's cheaper because we're all going in on it together. So there's different pieces. And I know you've probably gone there, but I mean it's also a really interesting way of thinking about union and the collectivizing of their individual voices, right? When we first heard about this, we were thinking around like, how do we have a 21st century union for creative industry workers? And then people were like, no, our unions aren't gonna work. We're not gonna get models, but I never thought of it as like, would you talk about the work in terms of like, how your approach can actually not, it's not about going to scale because people will have to be that market needs. It is about going to scale, but differently. So the whole notion, we are a $10 million fund. We had a pilot fund that was $3 million. We had a 10 million dollar fund right now. And there's two things. One is impact in Boston. And to a certain degree, we feel like we can kind of check the box on that because when I started in 2013, somebody's like, what's your five year vision? The same question. I was like, well, I hope we don't exist because big institutions like Eastern Bank and the Boston Foundation have started to deploy capital differently. And I would say that we can check that box. They created together BEI, the business echo to BEI, BEI. They hired my managing director. They created a similar fund and they're doing the same thing. And then LISC has changed their behavior. AXION has changed their behavior. Many folks have come in. The new project with Berkshire Bank and Runway is in the marketplace. So we have, I would say in Boston, the scaling in place of multiple diverse, so ecosystem, again, diverse responses to bringing capital, technical assistance, social capital, financial capital, et cetera, to entrepreneurs of color is really active. It's got a lot of vitality. So now we're in the other question. People are like, well, what's your next thing? Are you guys gonna be a $40 million fund, a $100 million fund? You gotta scale up. The answer is nope. That's not for us to do. Again, coming from a systems thinking background. So scaling across where local or what you might say, trans-local learning. So local efforts uniquely determined by the conditions in that community connected to other local efforts uniquely owned and controlled and designed by people in that community in a meaningful exchange of learning and relationship and including social capital and financial capital can take us to scale. So this idea of scaling across is what we're interested in. And this came from the, I was talking to the, I was raising money for BII and I was talking to the Chief Investment Officer at the Silicon Valley Community Foundation who said at the time before everything happened, who said he wanted to invest in racial justice, financial products and there weren't very many on the marketplace. I was like, oh, we have one and we have a track record. And he's like, A, you're too small. We had a million dollar maximum and a very turbulent moment. And it was too small. And the other thing he's like, I don't wanna invest in Boston but if you had a portfolio of multiple places where I could put 10 or 50 million into it, that'd be interesting to me. And so the BII fund-building cohort is a community of practice that we're launching next summer. It's people who are inviting us in. So we started getting calls a year ago, probably about 30 different communities have called and said, what have you learned about creating place-based integrated capital funds focused on closing the racial wealth divide? And is there anything that you can help us with? And as we started to do a bit of advising and consulting, it became too much. So we're like, let's do this collectively. So there'll be a community practice of 12 places, places like Philadelphia and Albuquerque, among others, who are saying, we're ready. We're not in the why or whether inquiry. We're in the how. And we want to know how can we accelerate each other's either time to market or deepen our impact by learning together better. And some of that is super practical nuts but we see ourselves as a how organization. Like we are kind of the wonky side of the work where we have two years, 30 pro bono lawyers working to create a precedent setting legal structure for doing the type of thing that we do. The impact covenant, so legally binding in your term sheet to ensure that enterprise is gonna contribute to closing the racial wealth divide. Impact measurement that's intersectional because a lot of the impact measurement tools are not. And so being able to really advance those types of questions and of course, all of the pieces that we've been learning in partnership with Ujima around what is the role of governance and democracy and participation. That's not what we do but we can point to best practices and ways of engaging in that. So ultimately, five years down the road, there is a network of locally self-determined, place-based integrated capital funds folks on closing the racial wealth divide that will be very different from each other but that bigger pots of capital can flow into the network and then this is getting into again the wonky side on the legal piece. The money can come into the network but the balance sheets for each place are not tied together. So that Chicago is not dependent on Detroit's performance. They have separate control but the capital can flow through the network in aggregate. So that's what we're leaning for. Okay, my brain's exploding. Like subversively, like I'm always trying to like tear shit down. I'm gonna, okay. So in five years, my goal is to have black people interact with technology in an entirely different way. So for us, technology happens to us. And I am reading and learning. I'm not a technologist. I'm someone who has been deeply interested in tech for almost 20 years and not a coder but there are currently nine patents for augmented reality contact lenses. So the smartphone that you have in your hand right now is already obsolete and your average person doesn't know that. And I want us to close that gap because until we close that gap, we can't control where we're going. So that's the first thing, right? So I want black people to be at the forefront. I want us to leapfrog. I also want to work to dispel a whole bunch of narratives around black people in the United States and around the world, right? If black people in the United States were our own country we would be the 15th largest spender in the entire world. And we let this narrative around our capital investment sort of fall by the wayside. And to me, being able to tell those stories and control those stories is really important because it shapes how we see ourselves. It shapes how our children see where they're going. And I want to fundamentally change how we see that. For the folks in this room who are working in particularly the arts sector, I was on a review panel a couple of weeks ago where I taught where it was for museums. Some of you will probably know what review panel I'm talking about. But I mentioned being really high on holograms. Like holograms to me are essentially a plug-and-play audience engagement way that will drive revenue for institutions that I believe those institutions are obsolete. I think a lot of your physical space we're building are obsolete. That's neither here nor there. But if you want to bring people into an institution holograms make sense. And I was essentially laughed at when I said that. But you can do, I'm currently working on or beginning to work on a project involving the black panthers who are aging. And we're at the point where it's relatively expensive to do hours of volumetric 3D video with them so they can live on, right? There are intellectual property implications that I'm getting into. For that, what happens when someone passes on and their personality lives in a museum that might be predominantly white lead but their family's still living? How do we navigate that, right? But I feel like black people should be having those conversations now. Because if we don't have them now people are gonna continue to co-opt our personalities and our culture and profit from it and we're not gonna see any revenue. So my five year dream is to have us lead all of this conversation instead of just letting it happen to us. So that's it. I got on my soapbox by the way. I got on it. Ah! Ah! Flame the soapbox. And I think your point about it, about technology happening to us. Something's happening to us right now. It'll be too disruptive. That kind of question. Everything that you just said, I'm like, right, that's, some of that is literally a black mirror episode. Black museum episode in particular. And we're not the ones writing and producing, right? So there's some of this stuff where it's near science fiction, right? It's like near future stuff around tech that we experience and we're like, okay, I can start seeing some of our stories here. But that's really interesting. How do we become the protagonist, the producers, the writers, the authors of co-creating the future? And being agents in closing that gap between what is the near future and what is now. Knowing that technology and some of those tools are a critical bridge and nexus around how we get there. I would say that my particular interest is black people. And how many folks notice the new terms of service agreement from Lyft this week? Like you've essentially signed over a whole bunch of your rights, the new terms of service with Lyft agreement. When you logged into your app and they asked you to agree to a new thing, we're all kind of doing it. But we have to get better, like as a society. We've got to stop. Yeah. There's so many different rabbit holes that I want to go down. So in a generic way, and then we'll open it up in a broader way. I'm wondering if you guys could each name something structurally that's impeding your work from really taking off. Like for all of us to be able to shift to the paradigm that you all are espousing, what's something structural that you think we can actually work on? It might be we need more investment in black entrepreneurs to work in the digital. I mean, I'm making it for you, but just as an example, it could be a technical thing, like SCC needs, we need to focus on this. Can you name something that helps all of us understand what might be some of the barriers to that progress? I can go. So because I think it ties together, not just to the work that we're doing. We're also worked, so we're actually a 501 to six. So we do advocacy work and represent we're sort of a chamber of commerce for work around cooperative businesses. And most recently, we were able to get a law passed a year ago under a Republican trifecta of federal government, which by the way was the first time that there's ever been a federal law enacted that explicitly named worker cooperatives in the history of this country. And part of it was around directing the Small Business Administration, which has all of these tentacles with the Small Business Development Center, thousands of them all over the country, to just like learn up about worker ownership and cooperatives and employee ownership. It additionally directs the SBA to do a study around why the hell are cooperatives not allowed to get in on an existing federal program for Small Business Administration loans? They require a personal guarantee. So it's not that we're explicitly barred, but it's impossible when you have multiple owners and you're not just one family or two business owners launching a new initiative, right? So there's already, that's a bunch of let capital. It's already there. It's already mandated. You already have administrators and a full, 50 states wide team of technocrats who are implementing this stuff and underwriting these loans. So there's a lot of stuff that it's like, actually it wouldn't be that deep to just unlock and release some stuff. And I think that that kind of thinking gets me to thinking about like, oh yeah, what are other ways that there's a really easy thing we even need to build up or unlock at a state, local or federal level, such as things like public banking, right? And how that would make some of what Deborah's talking about more feasible to have some of those things flow or have the kind of pipeline and portfolios of the kind of investment that we're talking about more and more possible and feasible. Actually, I'm gonna piggyback on that. I won't call on Janelle right now, but Janelle's gonna be up here in a second at Sustainable Economies Law Center. And this, what you're talking about, like there are definitely, actually, I think it was Jason, our legal counsel who told me this and it's really impacted my thinking, which is that just consider that all the laws, rules, guidances, and regulations are meant to set up the current system and keep it going. So you have to actually have some legal expertise on your side, which I will tell you when we first did our line item for Ambitious Around Legal, it was small. It's definitely gone up because now we've realized they are our creative partner in trying to figure out all these workarounds. Like you're saying like how do co-ops actually access SBA loan money, which is work with City of Berkeley around things of that sort. So just to say, I'm glad you went there with your response because there's actually a lot that we can do to actually structurally start to shape the alternative systems. So that it's actually easy to exert behavior and work within an alternative system. Because right now it's hard because we haven't created that space. We get millions of dollars a year. We do about 20 to 30 transactions a year. They are very innovative, groundbreaking transactions. They require a lot of legal. And so one of the things that we're talking to as we talk to these other cities is don't believe that you can't get that. Now this is where we have to use different social capital in our networks. So part of that has to do with, so I'll give you a, we have three law firms that we're all begging to work with us and the reason is they have a major attraction and retention problem for lawyers of color. And so they are desperate to put their young associates on projects like ours also on Ujima because they are having a lot of difficulty retaining talent. They are also multinational law firms that have offices in many of the cities that you all live in. So part of this, how do we use each other's social capital to unlock a resource like that that is a necessity for projects of our scale leaves five to $20 million funds and build up those relationships? Oh God. I think the barrier for us is, and I realize I talked a lot about the why, I didn't really say the how. So the big how that we're doing is we'll actually launch a distribution platform for XR content at the end of the year. Which means that it's sort of, we're hitting both ends in terms of education awareness and middle parts, the actual creation of content. And then the end is Netflix of VR, right? Or BET, which might be sort of more appropriate. In that, I think that the struggle is, the XR industry is developing largely like the film industry did and then the gaming industry and the kids with the skills to build games and the sort of the creative nature to build games. I'm not seeing anyone and I don't think philanthropy is gonna keep me alive, right? So it's been helpful but I don't think that's the path. However, the lack of recognition of the game industry and those skills as a viable creative part, viable part of the creative ecosystem is essentially non-existent. There's no support for gamers of color get into it. So they're coming out of school, they love playing games. They're avid consumers of games, right? Like black people play video games. They can't find a career in that because they're entering a sector that is remarkably racist and remarkably sexist. So Gamergate, I mean it's all largely happening outside of sort of the world of anyone who's paying attention to it. But overtly, I mean there was this drama this week about a guy who, nevermind, I won't go down that hole. Terrible, but the guy who was teaching people to play games had this disastrous Twitter thread this week. There's not a lot of support for growing the ecosystem to have kids get into it. Adults are making independent games and that's a hard lifestyle. So for me it's really how do I find, and you use the metaphor, I always use oceans, like oceans 11 or oceans eight when you're trying to like do something and it's like everybody has their role. You need your heist team. Yeah, I need, it's a heist team. For me I'm trying to crack the bank, right? Like somebody is coding, someone's got disguises, we're going in, we're setting, burning a fire back there, like so I need more people to help me crack the safe cause we, that's a big pipeline that I'm trying to hold on my own but having other folks in the ecosystem, I do feel kind of, there's other people who are working on theory. Kamal Sinclair does a great job there sort of on like why this important and has been supporting the work but I'm not seeing folks actually sort of down in the trenches helping to sort of support the entire ecosystem. Thank you for that. There's a couple thoughts that I'll just to kind of provide a little bit of an ambitious perspective. One is, and for some of the funders in this room who were with us at the recent Grantmakers in the Arts Conference, I went on a little side note on this and I really believe this, that the next sort of innovation that institutional foundations can do when it comes to their human resource capital is that over the last 15 years they did a lot out of the CFO's office to build out PRI, MRI, all of those kinds of things. I actually think that an underutilized resource on the payroll of foundations is their legal counsel but to think about hiring legal counsel differently not as risk managers but actually program partners, right? So that could be really interesting to sort of think about and take back to your institutions. Actually, I'll just leave it at that. And then we'll stop the live stream and then we'll go to just the group discussion at this point. So... Let me know when it's safe. Can we cut that? Me so too. Yeah.