 May I come in sir? Good morning sir, morning sir. Thank you sir. Sir, I am staying in Old Motibak, which has recently been renamed as Northwest Motibak sir. Okay, that is in front of New Motibak? Indeed sir. Indeed sir. Indeed sir. Yes sir. The renovation has been done there? Sir, I think it has been planned for after East Kidwai Nagar renovation is complete. So, currently there is no renovation going on sir. The father is with dad. Sir, he is an officer of the 1993 batch sir. This is the ADGP CID. ADGP CID sir. Yes, ADGP CID sir. Tell me how the public perception about police in Hyaya? My perception is very bad. In general, what is the perception problem? Sir, I think the public perception mirrors your perception. It is mostly on the negative side. Haryana police is seen as a very brash, crude, violent force. However sir, I believe that while this is true, because there are very often cases of police brutality and custodial violence, I think that on the whole Haryana police is a force for good sir. That way loyal orders is okay. I don't find much problem there. But the behaviour, the first thing is behaviour, how will we behave? Police is forced to protect us. At the scene of police itself, people are scared. They don't know what will happen. And the same culture is being carried to in Delhi also. Because maximum number of police officers at the lower ranks are from Haryana. Indeed sir. Sir, I think several steps will need to be taken for this perception to change. Firstly sir, I think there is a requirement of intense training within the police, which is to be taken up by officers from the highest to the lowest levels. Secondly sir, I think in line with the Prakash Singh judgement requirements, a police complaints authority should be formed, from where citizens can directly file complaints and action can be taken. Sir, currently the police complaints authority has not been formed in either Haryana or Delhi. Actually sir, I don't think it has been formed in any state in India as of today. So certainly sir, there is a lot to be done and steps need to be taken soon sir. Sir, training I think is done regularly. Sir, I can only speak, I am aware only about Haryana police sir, where training is an annual affair. Similarly sir, to specifically answer in the case of Haryana, dial 112 is a new program which has been started by the police, where even police harassment complaints can also be filed and within an action on which will be taken at the earliest possible time sir. So the Advocates Act is an act of parliament passed in 1961 which regulates the profession of law in India. It also makes the classification between an advocate and advocate on record and a senior advocate sir. So to the best of my knowledge, anybody registered with the Bar Council of India having cleared the prescribed examination is an advocate sir. And advocates can also be appointed as judges, you would have seen that. Indeed sir. In yesterday's recommendation, what is something new, not new, there is a precedence of that, what is that? Sir, the name of an additional solicitor general, senior advocate Mr. P. S. Narasimhan has been suggested sir. If he is appointed, I think he will be the sixth or the seventh direct appointee from the Bar to the Supreme Court sir. Indeed sir, if all the appointments take place, he will be the Chief Justice after Justice Nagarathna who will be the first woman Chief Justice of India sir. Indeed sir, her father was also a Chief Justice of India and Justice Chandrachudh's father was also a Chief Justice of India. Sir, he is the longest serving Chief Justice of India for 7 years from 1978 to 1985 sir. I am sorry sir, I am not able to recall the name of the judge. Sir, it relates to attempt to suicide sir. And the court had recommended strongly that it be decriminalized because criminalizing an attempt, an unsuccessful attempt does not help anybody for the worsens the situations in which the individual is in. A person needs help. Indeed sir. I am sorry sir, I am not able to recall the same. Sir, Aruna Shonbhag, indeed sir. I am sorry. Shonbhag. Indeed sir. She was a nurse in Bombay hospital. We have two types of law courses now. One is Integrated Course, which you did. That is very interesting. Which one is better? Sir, I think the integrated course is better because law is a multidisciplinary subject in a sense where deep knowledge of various other subjects such as history, sociology, basic English also sir, I think are all required. And an integrated course can convey all of those skills better sir. Sir, certainly the three-year course also has its merits. It allows people to be able to specialize in a subject entirely before they get into law. But sir, purely looking from the point of view of law and legal services I think an all-encompassing course where various skills such as patient listening, communication and idea of India's history or social economic condition can be conveyed is perhaps better suited to our condition as compared to the three-year LB course sir. Yes sir. Sir, how old is this course here? You look like a little healthier right now. Indeed sir. I have put on a lot of weight during the corona time sir. The photo looks a little old. Yes. Prime Minister was proposing a follow-up, what do you call it? How long is what needs to be considered as a horrors of partition? What do you think about that? Sir, I think that it's a step in the right direction. I think it does several things. Firstly, it shows state recognition of the horrors that were conducted during partition. Secondly sir, it allows families which are affected during partition to be able to participate in a national movement or a national day and provide solace. And thirdly sir, days of this nature in other countries in the world such as Holocaust Memorial Day or the day of remembering apartheid crimes in South Africa have allowed societies to move past and to reconcile these differences. And sir, I think that the Partition Horrors Remembrance Day will do a very similar task in India sir. During the second wave of COVID, there were various interventions by the judiciary. Indeed. Some are considered as an act of activism. Some are overlays. Can you tell me what is activism and what are the overlays in this? Sir, in the specific COVID, Sir, I think the actions of the judiciary which changed the distribution of the vaccines scheme, the 50-25-25 scheme. Sir, in my view, I think was judicial activism because the vaccination system required a uniform distribution and procurement system. However, sir, the Supreme Court orders on which state should get how much oxygen. I thought sir was an instance of judicial overreach. Appointment of Delhi Police. There are some controversies associated with this. Can you elaborate on this? Indeed sir. Sir, the current Delhi Police Chief, there are two main controversies which are associated. First, sir, that the central civil service rules were amended in order to allow for an officer who had about a month to go before his retirement to be appointed as Delhi Police Commissioner. And secondly, sir, the fact that the officer who has been appointed is not from the Agmot Carter has also caused some feeling of disaffection within the officers of the Agmot Carter, sir. Okay. Where is Pribunal's heads are lying and lying? Raman has not appointed. Is there a pattern or what has the government been doing for you? Sir, the tribunal, the appointments in the tribunals have been pending since 2017. And since then, the appointments have hardly been made. This is primarily because there has been a tussle between the executive and the judiciary on what should be the rules which govern the appointment, the conditions of appointment and service for members of the tribunals. As a result of which, sir, first we saw these rules being brought in by a finance act which was struck down by the court, then as rules which was again struck down, then as an ordinance which was struck down just last month in the case of Madras Bar Association. And now, sir, it has been, now the similar reforms have been brought in through the Tribunal Reforms Act which was passed about a week ago, sir. What circumstances can ordinance be used? And how is it being used now? Sir, an ordinance can be used in order to pass any legislation which the union government or the state government believe is important or has public importance while the legislature is not in session. Sir, I believe that the ordinance in recent times, the use of ordinances in recent times has gotten better and has reduced as opposed to, say, the previous decade. And, sir, I think that ordinances have been introduced mostly for economic reform-led measures as opposed to, say, measures which had a much larger social or political impact in the past decade, sir. Sir, I mostly like reading biographies and autobiographies. Sir, the last book that I read was called Method in Madness. It's an autobiography of Secretary Parmeswar Anayar. And it writes about his journey as an insider in the IAS, then taking a VRS, then joining at the lateral entry level as secretary for Swachh Bharat Program. I quite liked that book. And right before that, sir, I had read Before Memory Fades, which is the autobiography of senior advocate Fali Narayman, sir. Last question. What is your biggest weakness? Sir, I think I have a tendency to procrastinate. And I think that that makes me lazy at best and really inefficient at worst. And so this is something that I try and fight every day, sir. So what are you doing about it? How are you trying to fix this? So firstly, I think the very fact that it is at the center of my cognizance and in my mind, I think it makes me take small steps in my daily life. Secondly, sir, I have a feedback group in a sense of my closest friends, my younger brother and my mother who tell me if they see these tendencies coming back into me. And thirdly, sir, I try and write, I try and maintain a record of what I do every day. And sir, as such it tells me if I'm going into a slump and so yes, these are mainly the things which I do, sir. Sir, you are a lawyer. Sir. Sir, I would say I am a lawyer. However, the main difference being that, sir, once one is registered with the bar council of a state or of a state high court, they can call themselves lawyer in that they can practice. However, anyone who's given the LLB exams is a LLB graduate, sir. So have you registered in some bar council? Indeed, sir. I've done my provisional registration with the bar council of Delhi. So tell me, why not? You're a very articulate person. You argue very well. I'm the same. Thank you, sir. But why not become a very good lawyer? Sir, I think there are several reasons why I decided to appear for this examination and not go into law. So first is that I do not want to be bounded by the financial capability of the person I'm helping to determine how much I want to help him. And I think that's a central part of the legal business. Secondly, sir, I believe that the civil services offers a proximity to change or a proximity to development which no other job may allow for. There are various ways to be able to do social development, but the proximity that the civil services offers, I think it puts it in a separate league. And thirdly, sir, I think that there is no other job which can provide the job satisfaction and the job quality that the civil services provides. Why not? Certainly, sir. But through my experience of interning with lawyers who are in the pro bono litigation period, a lot of time is often spent in trying to find cases in order to subsidize their pro bono litigation or to find sponsors amongst big lawyers so that they can continue their pro bono litigation. And sir, I believe that the impact that pro bono lawyers have is much lesser in comparison with the civil servants. On both these counts, sir, I think civil service fares better, sir. Can you tell me the overall problems and the judicial system handling? Sir, I would classify the problems of the judicial system under three headings, sir. First relates to efficiency. There are about four crore cases pending in the Indian judicial system which the Nitiayog estimates at the current rate will take over 300 years to clear, sir. And I think as a result, this makes the judicial system highly inefficient, has problems even on the ease of doing business because our contract implementation is very low and so on and so forth. Secondly, sir, I would say is a question of transparency. The fact that judges refuse to be covered by RTI and any proceedings against them happen behind closed doors, as was the case in Justice Gogoay as well as Justice Ramana's complaints, both, sir, I think undermine public confidence in the courts on the whole. And I think that there is a requirement for both these issues to be looked at. And thirdly, sir, the heading of accountability. I think, sir, sorry, sir, the thirdly being the heading of transparency, sir. I'm sorry, sir, if I may rephrase, the third heading being of independence. So I think that since the NJAC debacle and then the back and forth on appointments to the tribunals, there have been some doubts which have crept into the mind of people about the sanctity of the institution and the sanctity of appointments. And, sir, I believe that there is a requirement of a national consultation on the judicial appointments process so that a statutory or a proper concrete manner of doing the same can be introduced, sir. And there will be some more reasons for the candidacy, high-pandemic cases? Sir, I would list three or four reasons. Firstly, sir, is the high-vacancy number. At the district level, the sanctioned strength in all of India is about 24,000 judges, whereas currently only 16 to 17,000 judges are in function or hold office. Secondly, sir, is a high number of vacations. For a district judge sits in court only for about 240 days, a high court judge for about 215 days, and a Supreme Court judge only for about 190 days. And, sir, as such, I believe that with such a great backlog, this low number of working days is the main reason for the inefficiency. Lastly, sir, I would say that very few technological advancements are being leveraged at the district level. For instance, case management systems, systems which allow for e-filing of evidence and effort evades, et cetera, there is very, very low adoption of that, which is why the process, which is already burdened, continues to move at a sluggish pace. And what about the certain judges are also reluctant to make judgments to their final judgments? Indeed, sir. What happens very often is that the court will reserve its order for the judgment and then the judgment will be passed at a much later stage. And, sir, it is to counter this problem itself that Justice Malimath Committee had suggested that at the end of every judgment, the judges should be, it should be made compulsory for the judges to write the date of hearings ending and the date on which the judgment is delivered so that this specific problem can be dealt with, sir. So firstly, I think it takes us away from a non-statutory and sort of grey area method of appointment in the collegium to a properly structured manner. Secondly, sir, I think that the equivalence drawn between the judiciary and the executive in appointing judges is a good step because it shows a cordial, cooperative environment between the two institutions of state. And thirdly, sir, I think that it also allows us to fight or at least make public the issue of nepotism that we face in judicial appointments. I think NJAC would have brought in many newer judges or first-generation lawyers as opposed to the current system where a handful of families across India about 300 to 400 judicial families are the ones which contribute most of our lawyers, sir. And so for these three reasons, I was, I am and was in favour of the NJAC, sir. You have a hobby of cricket also, sir. Do you play cricket or watch cricket? Sir, I play and watch cricket both, sir. Recently, police captaincy has been under standard. What is your opinion on police captaincy? Sir, I personally am... I have my criticisms of his captaincy because certainly it seems that the individual is put in front of the team very often under his captaincy. And we saw that there was a change in the manner the team was behaving on field in Australia after he came back. So we came back from a big loss in Adelaide to win the test matches and then defeat them at GABA. So, sir, I believe that that criticism is accurate. However, on the whole, I am in favour of his captaincy. I believe that he has brought in a much better fitness culture, a much better work culture to the team. And, sir, I think also to have the world's best batsman as your captain definitely adds to the morale of the team, sir. But you have not been performing recently? Sir, yes, the last 15-16 months have been a little hard for his batting style. But, sir, still I believe that his inherent talent is still present and that it will help us on a rainy day, sir. So, your name, we are happy with this. I am going to name. Sir, I think it really raises the expectations from me, but otherwise I am happy, sir. Sir, regarding Koji, you were just saying for 15-16 months, you are not performing well. Now, 15-16 months is a long period. One or two months, one can take it. I don't know, I personally feel it's not that your captaincy is bad. His selection of team is bad. You know what I mean? The number of batsmen and the moderates, these are the attempts we did to mistake them. And trying to find all around them in everybody is a gamble. Your institute is in Dwarkar, man. Indeed, sir. It's in sector 14 Dwarkar. It is a new thing, man. Law faculty is up for Delhi in college, man. Indeed, sir. Then we are in the south camp, sir. This is in Dwarkar. The whole camp is in Samam. Sir, our university is not part of Delhi University. Indeed, sir. But it's in Dwarkar. Yes, sir. Can you name other law schools starting from Bangalore? Sir, NLS Bangalore, Nalsar, Hyderabad, NUJS in Calcutta, NLU in Jodhpur in Bhopal. So I think, sir, there are about 16 national law schools in India now. Yes, sir. You didn't write Bangalore? Sir, I wrote the clad. I was being offered Nalsar, Hyderabad. I missed Bangalore by about 5-6 ranks, sir. What is ICJ? Sir, the International Court of Justice. It is the primary judicial body under the United Nations. And it is seated at the Hague in the Netherlands, sir. Now, how effective are they? Sir, I would say that the ICJ has been effective in trying to resolve disputes that have come before it. However, because ICJ can exercise jurisdiction only over those disputes which are brought in by both the countries which submit to its jurisdiction, its efficiency is reduced because very often countries do not want to go in front of the ICJ itself, sir. How many judges are there in ICJ? So there are 15 permanent judges in the ICJ, sir. Yes, sir. Any Indians there at the moment? Sir, I think Justice Dalveer Bhandari is still on the court, sir, currently serving. We have one day there. Sir, Kulbushan Jadav, sir? Yes. So the judgment was delivered by the ICJ in 2019. However, sir, before the judgment could be enforced, Kulbushan Jadav passed away in a Pakistani prison, sir. And as such, the judgment has been rendered infractuous, sir. Kulbushan passed away? I am sorry, sir. Then I must be confusing. I am extremely sorry, sir. I am extremely sorry, sir. So the judgment had two parts. The first part was that Kulbushan Jadav will be allowed consular access from India. And second would be that under a free judicial system, the trial of his case will take place. So the second part has not been acted upon in any way. There is no retrial, no independent procedure to check for his guilt. The first part, however, sir, Pakistan has complied. India... No, sir. Sir, there is a... I would say this is an inherent limitation in the ICJ and its jurisdiction that the ICJ cannot compel countries to comply with its judgments in its entirety. And, sir, as such, there is not too much that can be done from a legal international law standpoint, sir. That is a very issue for India. Thank you, sir. The judgment... Indeed, sir. However, sir, there is a lot more power to sanction or the power to punish for not complying with the Supreme Court's judgment as opposed to, say, in the case of ICJ, where countries can just blatantly say that they do not agree with the judgment and then not apply them. So, what do our punishment take? It is very important, sir, to comply with the ICJ. And are there any punishments in any form? No, sir. However, sir, I believe... So what I meant to say is that, at least on the books or by the statute, there is a power to initiate contempt proceedings against the Chief Secretary of Karnataka if the judgment is not complied with. Well, India really wasn't happening. Okay, now, what is this competition law? We have a competition law. Sir, the competition law is a branch of law which has been introduced basically to make sure that there is no market distortion either by abuse of dominance position or by entering into anti-competitive agreements. Sir, I believe that in a market economy system, competition law is required in order to make sure that there is a level playing field for all players and that nobody, because of their presence in the market, is able to create artificial barriers for entry or to distort the market prices by using the great amount of financial power that they have. Now, let's talk at the international level. Again, we have an agency to ensure there is a level playing field. Which agency is that? The trade part of it. So, the World Trade Organization. Are they succeeding in anything? Sir, I would say that the World Trade Organization has been successful to some extent in being able to apply the most favored nation standard and the non-discriminatory standard amongst the countries. However, sir, with countries such as China which use currency manipulation and dumping very often, the effectiveness of the WTO has been reduced greatly, sir. Yeah, almost all countries have these anti-dumping issues. Indeed. In India, China, India, of course, also a separate country. So, you think it's not that effective in the WTO? Anyway, compulsory licensing. What is this compulsory licensing issue? Sir, compulsory licensing is when the government, the state is empowered to allow any other manufacturer, is allowed to override the patent protection of an individual and give out license for the production of a patented product to non-patent holders, sir. It is permitted under the Indian Patents Act as well, sir. Last question. Where is the accommodation on the 15th finance commission? So, firstly, sir, on vertical devolution, sir, on vertical devolution, the finance commission recommended that 41% of the funds be devolved to the states. This was 1% lower than what the 14th finance commission had recommended. Secondly, sir, the finance commission has laid down five different types of grants under the grants in aid which can be given to states. The highest amount, the highest amount has been given to revenue deficit grants. Thirdly, sir, the grants which have been recommended for the local bodies, the third tier of governance are the highest till now. Overall, rupees 4.8 lakh crore have been recommended over a period of five years. And fourthly, sir, the terms of reference contain specific provisions to comment on defense and internal security bill that the union government has to pay. So, a separate grant has been made to that extent also for modernization of defense and internal security infrastructure for rupees 2 lakh crore, sir. And how about the population? Sir, the census of 2011 has been used for the first time in the calculation of the finance commission. To allay the fears of the southern states, a new performance-based indicator of demographic performance was introduced which was given a weightage of 12.5%, sir. And for the other states, the southern states make more money? Sir, to the best... And forests? Sir, forests in the 14th finance commission were given a weightage of, I think, 10%, which has increased to 15% in the 15th finance commission.