 We're live now. Right. Yes. Yeah. Okay. All right. So, um, so government operations on April. I don't even know what day it is for 17. And I think it's Friday. Okay. So what we're going to look at today is commissioner Sherling has agreed to give us a little update on issues. Anything he wants to tell us actually. So we'll go to the commissioner first and hear from him and if we have any questions. So, okay. Commissioner, thank you for joining us and thank you for offering to give us an update. Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. And as I said earlier in the week, it's, it's great to see the Senate fully functional using technology. I'll, I'll, I sent along a few documents or Karen sent them for me earlier today that give you a snapshot of some of the activities that various divisions of public safety have been involved in over the last few weeks, including the state police fire safety. But well, we didn't ask emergency management to give a snapshot. We sent along a couple of representative samples of work in the form of situation reports from the daily activities. As you know, the emergency operation center has been in full activation since March 11 at about 730 in the morning. We're now running the EOC virtually. We believe it's the only completely virtual EOC operation in the country, although we don't, we can't completely verify that. That seems to be the case from the conversations that directors had with with other managers. The snapshot of sort of top of mind activities right now, which have pivoted quite a bit over the last five weeks, which are a bit of a blur at the top of the list of things that public safety is providing support to across the array of state government and with the assistance of folks not only in state government but the guard businesses, nonprofits and a host of others a cast of thousands really. We're working to provide additional meal support starting next week for the Vermont food bank as their capacity has been outstripped. We're continuing to work on build out of delivery and supply chain for personal protective equipment for a wide swath of users beyond the typical distribution network that would be in place for sort of a standard emergency, not one of this size and type. We're providing surge site support to the agency of human services. We're providing support and leadership on data and modeling of a variety of things ranging from the virus outbreaks and itself to our ability to continue to deliver services personal protective equipment ventilator capacity, etc. We're doing direct sourcing with partners from the UVM health network buildings and general services and a variety of Vermont businesses source key components of supply chain from PPE to ventilators to other resources thermometers. And we are now actively involved as the pivot point between the agency of commerce and the Department of Health on the restart strategy to balance the business needs with the health overlay and the data driven approaches that the the governor has used and will continue to use as a decision making set of decision making points going forward. That's the, the, the nutshell version of what's going on it's a little difficult if not impossible to describe the operational tempo that's been in place now for what seems like nine months but I gather is only five weeks. So I'll leave it there and open it to questions that might be more illuminating than my Drowning on any questions. I can. Matt, yes, yes, Allison. Hi, Michael. I guess I given the concerns that other law enforcement communities around the country have faced in terms of coven among their ranks, you have yet to see that happen in this state right. That is correct. We've had a couple of positives in law enforcement and first response in general. And we've had a few folks under monitoring, but I think that our proactive postures that we took very early on in creating models for alternative delivery strategies. We monitor the health of the state police workforce on a day to day basis. All of those things have come together in a, in a pretty positive way to ensure that we haven't seen the types of infections that some other folks have seen and that of course goes part and parcel with Vermonters paying attention to the guidance the guidance statewide being issued at the right point in the curve and the overall mitigation strategies that knock on wood appear to have have worked reasonably well to this point. And as you monitor local law enforcement is that true for the police departments around the state that you are aware of. Yeah, we ask the Colonel can speak a little more to this the Vermont intelligence center sends a daily brief to law enforcement and and then by extension the fire service on coven activities and one of the things that's at the top of that message that goes each day is a request for folks to report any illnesses so we can map out outbreaks in similar fashion to what we do with at risk populations with corrections and nursing facilities and things like that and the reason being that we don't want our first responders to be inadvertently vectoring disease into the community. Right that that's part of why I asked great terrific thanks. Anthony. You folks are doing a good job so don't take this question wrongly. I just wonder whether there's any lessons to be learned like if things have you had issues around supplies or staffing I'm just I'm not not criticizing what you're doing I'm just wondering about whether there were obstacles that you found in the way. Oh there's a innumerable obstacle senator and there's innumerable things we probably do differently three weeks ago knowing what we know now. I started describing us a few days ago as this whole event seems like a thousand foot foot jigsaw puzzle that someone dropped onto a lawn. And you had to spend a couple weeks finding the pieces and then you had to spend a couple of weeks finding the edges and putting them together and now we're just getting to the point where we can fill in the middle. You know among the top challenges have been really a need to re engineer all of our emergency response methodology on the fly, because even the best modeling of pandemic response bore little or no resemblance to what we have had to do in the last five weeks but even before that as we started to gear up for this. There was just no one on the planet ever contemplated that the entire planet would be affected at the same time. So there's no ability for anyone to back up anyone else under the circumstances and that's a typical way that emergency response works particularly in that United States is with some kind of mutual aid in Vermont not only from other states but from other countries we're used to being able to call on Canada to bring resources to us. When we're in need and vice versa and we're unable to do that now. The other major logistical challenge has to do with supply lines and the fact that our, all of the critical supplies we need are manufactured in Asia. And I think the country is going to learn a hard lesson that we've got to figure out a way to be able to supply ourselves in times of crisis. But there'll be, there'll be months of after action planning that goes on and debriefing that goes on to sort of map out what we have learned and what we can learn from from everything that's unfolded for the last two months and beyond. I appreciate what you're doing. Anthony, I did you want to follow up and I just said I appreciate what they're doing. So I, I know one of the things that and I keep attributing it to Susanna but a lot of people are saying it now we should be able to learn lessons from what we're doing now with what we might do differently, not just in an emergency, but in our regular day to day situations and policies and procedures and so I hope that we're kind of keeping track of the changes that we've made in response to this that we might want to think about making permanent changes to the way we to the way we operate. Absolutely right Senator state government and, and the American people have been forced to do things in different ways that they have not previously embraced. And many of these things we can continue to use as tools that that will be positive beyond the crisis just I attended a fire safety directors meeting. I didn't even know when it was maybe it was last week. And they observed that a meeting that would typically encumber them largely for the day because they'd have to drive from all over Vermont to get to it. They're able to accomplish in 90 minutes and then get right back to work. So, whether it's little things like that, or big things like the changes that the Labor Department is making to the way unemployment claims ultimately will be processed with new technology. They're working really hard. The back end of all of this, there will be things that that work better as a result of the experience. Allison. Michael, I'm the mother of a firefighter who responded to a mutual aid a big fire in south Woodstock two nights ago. And needless to say, social distancing was impossible. I am a little concerned about, I mean, sadly, now having to self isolate again for for at least a week and he has a job that is really challenging to be self isolating. Is there any work that's being done to to make it. I mean, our first responders and ambulances it's a little easier to be, you know, have equipment that works. When they're responding. Is there any work being done for the firefighters to make that safer for them to actually do the right thing and support their fire departments but also not be professional, you know just be supervised for the next two weeks. Well on the front end of that I know guidance has gone out to all first responders about the sort of the best response posture which is to minimize the number of people you have on a crew or responding to a particular emergency in the case of a large structure fire there's not a lot of a lot of options there. On the positive side with a fire response that the layers of gear that are available with Scott air packs and face shields and things are sort of endemic to the way that they respond so hopefully it. I guess I would, I would suggest that the fire chief just check in with health and see what is prescribed in terms of isolation at this point my senses that they're equipped as I imagine they were fighting a structure fire that there may not actually be a prescription for isolation. Thanks, I'll check with him. So, I know that this isn't part of the response necessarily but is the SEOC working at all, or aware of kind of what's going on at Cobley around the, the experiments they're doing. They're aware, they're in closer contact with the epidemiology team through the Department of Health Dr Kelso and her folks. And I know that it's the the the serology testing I guess I should verify that that's what you're talking about. Yeah. I know Dr Levine indicated that he thinks that their approach is is the right one in terms of using it as sort of a test bed, but not relying on it as not over relying on it as a as a pointer to what the disease profile might look like right now so we have Vermont specific efforts going on around different testing that we hope will help us be able to paint a better picture of this viruses behavior so we can chart a more lucid course over the next several months. So I yesterday we talked we heard about, or the other day we heard about funding for EMS systems and Erica born and what is is the conduit the funnel for through emergency management is she also the person that they should be addressing around the cares, it would all EMS funding go through Erica, or how would that work. I don't know what the conduit necessarily for cares is is going to be but if if you send me a note I will find out the the right sort of channel or order of operation on that. I know that Adam Grisham is probably kind of overseeing all of it but I just. We don't want to over overburden anybody if they're better, better channels for them to use. If you send it to me I'll find the right home, whether that's with the director or for elsewhere. Okay. Any other questions for the commissioner. Alison, did you have a, did you have your hand up or was that just a thank you Michael, we're just all very grateful. Thank you and thank all of your constituents for doing their part to making sure that to getting us to this point with the curve bent in the manner that it appears to be so look forward to seeing you again soon. So I will tell you, Commissioner that I've heard from some law enforcement people around the, perhaps speeding up the certification for level threes and just some issues around the, the Academy and the training council and some of our mandated training that they move it we mandated that they have to receive. So I did look at that on Tuesday I believe and you'll get an invite but just so that you know not necessarily that you will have to come. I just wanted you to know that. Great. If I'll certainly try to be there, but we'll certainly have someone from public safety and state police there to to help with that conversation. Commissioner Shirley, you always seem rather chipper but you're finally starting to look a little tired. So good thing it wasn't yesterday. Yesterday, I was a little exhausted. I don't know about chipper but I'm confident that in the skill level and dedication of the folks that are working on this and that we've been lucky in Vermont to have the right people. And I think had the right balance so far. I'm sure there have been things we've made mistakes on over the last five weeks and and will in the next few. But hopefully those are minimal. So if I if I seem like I'm upbeat it's because of of that and because frankly three weeks ago we were looking at projections that were quite scary and at this point we've got things in a good place we just have to keep them there for the long term. That's the key. Well, take good care of yourself. I have shared this with senators but just a little note about cabin fever that we're all suffering. Yesterday I made a call to my ex roommate up there and when the and the phone and was answered by a woman I said, Hi, this is your ex roommate and I miss you so much and I'm so sorry and I just went on and on. And said, Who is this. And I said, Oh, is this not clear that I dial wrong. And she said, Yes, I said I'm so sorry and she said, That's okay you have a pleasant voice do you want to stay in chat for a while. So I think we're all. So, I think that we all need to have that human contact and she clearly had been cooped up for too long by herself. That's a great story Senator I'm certainly not lacking human contact it's all electronic. Yeah, tired as I talk from 5am until 8pm every day. Well she was just a regular person she wasn't involved in trying to solve these issues so anyway thank you very much for what you do. Thank you. Have a great day. Bye. Did we have. Okay, sorry, sorry about that. Why don't we have Lafayette on for this discussion but I think that she is not with us right. No she's not. I think that she is we want her when we do the communities at risk the conversation because she represents both the disability community and the low income advocacy council. So, and then we have Betsy and Rask listed under this discussion Betsy and did you have anything that we need to address here. Okay Madam chair now just listening in today on today's discussion. Okay. All right. So let's just move to the next one then which is the posting of notices and agendas and minutes. And when would you like to to bring us up to date on that. And this is Gwen Zach of VLCT. And I don't know exactly what you want me to testify towards I can talk about what we're asking for I don't know I believe that Karen a testified earlier so I don't know if you needed me to fill in any gaps or answer any more questions. No, and I think do we have john flowers with us and Mike Donahue. This is John flowers. Okay john and this Mike Donahue with us also. Yes, I am. Okay. So, Gwen why don't you just lay out the issue for us so that both john and Mike can hear kind of what the issue was because they weren't with us before when we, when we talked about it and give us your ask. Sure, absolutely. So the ask is to do a temporary allowance for other postings outside the realm of public postings in physical locations. That could be electronic means, whether it be a newspaper or from Port's Forum or the like or a town websites to supplement those postings that may or may not be seen most likely won't be seen when they're posted in public. The one new add to this would be a link to the governor's press conference touched on today that we just learned that the town clerk's offices are going to be gradually reopening obviously not for public to be in attendance but for town clerks to have some level of presence in their offices starting on Monday the 20th. So, keeping the physical location of postings at the city hall or town hall or town clerk's office would be perfectly adequate because there will be someone manning the fort essentially who would be able to do those postings. On behalf of a board chair or vice chair or a member, and then the other two postings would be, hopefully we could get it to be a online version. Again, whether it be newspaper or website or the like, and we're only asking it forward to be temporary for, you know, again, this COVID, you know, 19 crisis, and we are asking that, you know, if it pleases the committee and makes it easier for the legislature to really narrow the scope of this to really just mean the notices because the ones we've heard most about our notices for posting agendas and warnings for meetings under the open meeting law. So that would be pretty much any meeting and then the meeting or then the postings for amp the appropriate municipal panel stuff under title 24 for zoning stuff. So when they have to do posting physical postings there. We haven't heard much about any as of yet we haven't heard concerns about other physical postings but those I know may or may not be coming down the line but at least the ones we hear about from zoning officials and from board officials is the is the regular meeting warnings and notices. So I think that pretty much covers it. Okay, Allison. I thought we'd taken care of the notices of meetings. I thought we were discussing legal notices for the towns to be added to do electronic. I thought that's what this conversation was about particularly with Mike Donahue present. We have not, we have not that we had a short conversation about the allowing them to not post in the three places. Yeah. And at the time, we were also considering not having to post at the town clerk's office or at the town hall office because they were running out of posting space window space. But we decide we did not do anything about it because we felt that it was important to hear from other people including the media. So we have not, we have not done this yet. Yeah, that's why we're doing it looking at it today. Got it. So, um, John, do you want to weigh in on this? Now that you heard the issue. If he's okay. I've only got 30 years in Vermont journalism. Mike has around 60. So I'd like him to start. And I'm certainly happy to add on to what he says if if I can. I'll defer to him because he's a youngster. Okay, well, we, we in the industry are don't, I believe have a problem with an online option during this temporary phase to go along with any official posting that might be done at me in terms of hard copy at the town clerk's office or We just like for newspapers to play a role in that we've been, I think we've proven to be a quite a vibrant lifeline to people during this crisis where most of us are working off site. We're still doing our reporting. Um, we're getting some nice support in terms of a boost in subscriptions from people who are recognizing the rough. We're out there and working. Um, I want to say thank you to our own Senator Christopher Bray and other members of the delegation that have been supporting the paper as well. And so if there is any kind of posting requirement. Um, we would like you to consider newspapers as an avenue for that to be done. We reach a lot more people through social media. And through our own social media sites, our websites and our hard copies. We would also remind people that there are areas of the state that are well connected to the internet. And we are even more vital in those areas. And, you know, we do tend to serve a lot of people who aren't on Facebook who don't get to who don't want to get front porch forum or have no use for it and vehicles such as that. And we would argue that, you know, newspapers would be a good, a good way to inform people of public notices. I think that we had had part of this conversation about a year and a half ago, when there was a request to allow people to only post on electronic means and not to have to do newspapers and we chose not to go there at the time so I think that there is still the requirement that they, that things be posted in newspapers of general jurisdiction, I believe. So, because Bray, did you have a. Yeah, so I'm glad that John and Mike are able to join us today. I want to be a little more blunt than, than there being, and that is that I just, I hope that while whatever temporary rules we put into effect won't have any unintended consequence in terms of reducing the amount basically of business that goes to our consumers because they're already under financial stress and so it would just be perverse that at a time where we need them the most that any kind of work around for the next month to three whatever it turns out to be might result in less traffic going to them that's, they're not going to say that but I'll say that. So I appreciate it. I will. Okay, go ahead Mike. Thank you, Madam Chair, and just for the record. Mike Donnie you executive director of my press association. Also the vice president in New England first amendment coalition. I did speak yesterday. Today, to the, I was involved a little bit with the House government operations discussing the same thing so I do know a little bit. I will say that we have not heard any problems from municipal officials about this issue and since our reporters are out there covering things, you think we would have heard but this is not a time to reduce transparency I would thank the senator Bray for his kind comments. If for some reason you were going to reduce transparency and only go with one location I would concur with john that it ought to be newspapers. Obviously they're being delivered to the doorstep. They're being picked up in the community they're online and everything like that yesterday. There was a push to allow if there was going to be one place it would be at the municipal office, but the municipal offices are closed. And so I'm sort of like, think about who's driving by, who's driving by, you know, to the town. We completely lost you. Are you there. Mike, we completely lost you for a period of time you keep going in and out. We lost you. We can hear Mike fine. We can hear Mike fine. I think you got lost. Okay, it wasn't now. Okay, well let me. Let me just back up just to hear. Are you hearing me now. Yes. Okay. Yeah, good. So, so we would support newspapers being the, if you were going to reduce transparency and go to one site newspapers ought to be the one since they are getting out and about in the community. Somebody had proposed yesterday the town offices would be a place to post them but I'm not sure people are driving by their town offices. When a lot of them are closed, and the clerks are working inside to read a bullet board or to read what's on on the class so if you're looking for the greatest transparency. I know the town of Middlebury buys display ads even long before this. I believe they buy display ads for their full agendas for their select board meetings and others town city of Barry does it. And it's great for transparency so that's all we would say if you have some questions and I'd also concur. The issue yesterday also was the lack of connection in some of the rural areas is a problem for some of those towns. Thank you. We're still hearing you Mike but Jeanette's frozen again. So I still. I am frozen. Yes. I don't. What to say. You hear me now. Yeah, only every word every now and then. I can only make a suggestion you might turn off your video and you might have a better link just as audio. And I can only hear you every now and then. Is that better. Yes. Yes. Yes. Is that better. Yes. Well I. I think we heard Mike I just wanted to go back to the situation where the governor has allowed the city or the city hall or town clerks office to be open with two people inside. Does that change any of this for anybody. I just want to say one thing, Senator. One of the comments was made that some of the clerks don't want to go out into the community to post the notices. And I'm not. I'm not sure. I mean, they've got to go out and get their groceries and a lot of the places are supermarkets that are one of the posting places. So. Now there's two people that will be able to go out and about. It sounds like from what the governor is saying. It seems to me that even though the clerk's office will be open and the clerk might be in there working. It's not going to they're not necessarily going to be a lot of regular citizens stopping by to chat or to look at notices seems like even though the office is open. Most people are staying home so they wouldn't see the notices as much about the clerk's office. Even though the clerk's office is open. Can anybody hear me. Yes. Yeah. It's hard to say something. Well, obviously we've got a mission. It's hard to prove a negative. I guess I'm still trying to figure out what we're trying to decide here. Yes, I'm in the same boat as you Brian I'm I'm unclear I mean, if they post them three places, certainly right now without legislation they can post one of the posting places could be the newspaper. I don't know. Each town has a different. Pull on this and it strikes me that I would could just you could just do this now. Right. Yeah. Well, my understanding, my understanding if I can. The clerks did not want to go out into the community and post them at the hardware store or the post office. Yes. And so they wanted to just maybe post the town office where nobody's going to. So that's going to really cut down on the transparent. Let me let me let me step in here so we know exactly what we're talking about. So under title one, it says municipal public body shall post notices of special meetings in or near the municipal clerks office. That's already a requirement. So that's not nothing would change by saying they do or they don't. That's already a requirement there. And then it says, and in at least two other designated public places in the municipality. So when you're talking about public places, the way courts have interpreted no way the law has been interpreted public places are physical posting. So they have to be physically posted somewhere else, whether it be the post office or. The hardware store or the grocery store or the rec fields or whoever it might be in your town. And so the ask was to say if we're not at a stay home, stay safe order and we cannot leave our homes to do postings on the chair of my planning commission. I don't have the authority to go out other than to go grocery shopping and to go to medical appointments if needed. You'd be in violation of the order by doing these postings and that's been the discomfort for chairs and those that are doing these posting not just town clerks because a lot of town clerks don't do these postings on behalf of those boards. And so the request was to say, is there other ways we can do the dissemination of information instead of in designated public places physically they could do designated public places that might be in there. It's like in lieu there of a newspaper, a town website, a again front porch forum or some manner where they don't have to physically go out into into the world to do postings that may or may not be seen. That's what the request has been. Yes, can anybody hear me now, or me. Yes, I keep, I keep losing you all the time I have not been able to say a word for the lack. I just wanted to try and make it clear that we're not asking that they only posted in one place the newspaper. All of those things are still required we're just asking that they not have to post it in the grocery store or the deli or the co op or the laundromat. That's all the ask is right when. Yes, the request is to just get rid of those and in addition add ones that they could do in in lieu there of not saying they would post in just one place. We could post in three different places but it would be in places that places that people would actually see it, whether it be a newspaper or whether it be online or on a town website, they have not legally been able to do this under the interpretation of this current law. Yes, but quite honestly, this is what's happening now. I mean, almost every time I mean the town websites are where people are going to get information. And we've never had and I and Senator Clarkson we've never had the legal no no one has said that's a legal posting under state law so our towns have always gone out and done these physical postings because courts have interpreted that way. So they can continue to post on all those other places run porch forum, the newspaper, the town website everywhere else. They just don't have to put it in the grocery store or the laundromat. We're just asking that they not. So we could the language could be Tucker I would think that they not have to post in that they have to continue to post but the town hall. They do not have to post in two other physical locations in the town, but they have to make sure that posts are done so that in newspapers and in, and it doesn't cost anything to put up. It's only legal notices that cost in the newspapers right. No madam, no madam chair that. Well, the best on the newspaper they're all independent but that would be like placing a classified ad or I think the town of Middlebury and Barry, though, they're buying display ads, not classified ads but block ads like you see for stores. Because I think our newspaper what they do is they. Anyway, they always have just did have do a list of meetings in the area. But what I'm talking about is not just a list of the meetings, but it's the full agenda will say, oh, I order flag salute. Gotcha. You know minutes approval warrants, everything. Okay. Chris. So, I don't know what wind might be thinking of or we have language already sorry that it would seem as though just specifying that we don't that the all the two one approach will be to say the two alternative postings or whatever they're called, maybe satisfied by an electronic posting, including. I don't use those or something like that. So we're not waving the number of posts, not reducing the amount of exposure. We're just allowing for electronic to satisfy the other postings that the law has been interpreted to mean physical postings. Can we just make that clarification of interpretation in the statute. If I could just add madam chair, every town has to declare a newspaper of record. Every market when they have the organizational meeting so there is a newspaper of record. Right down for legal notices. Just been extension. Senator. And this is going back again. I just wanted to point out that, you know, there are town websites. So if towns do have websites, they can certainly have that be an option as well. They can have it be a newspaper of record as well. I mean, the only problem with having it having to be a newspaper is that sometimes the newspaper of record doesn't get printed every single day or every two days or every three days. And therefore, a lot of these requirements like, for example, when you're doing the time place purpose of a special meeting under the meeting law, there is a 24 hour sort of like at least 24 hours before the meeting. If it's a regular meeting at 48 hours, so there might be instances where you aren't getting your, you aren't able to get your newspaper to print in the time necessary to do the warning if they're working under those 24 to 48 hour limitations. Tucker. Well, I think a good compromise might be that if John flowers, if the, the communities were instructed to, you know, if a electronic version is, is needed or directed that it be that newspaper, the newspaper record be one of the mandated recipients along with any other social media vehicle they choose as well so that if you know the newspaper record is included as well as a, you know, another electronic vehicle that would be fine and by the way, most of our are most of the newspapers have their own websites so that we have the capacity to react to postings very quickly as well. Tucker. I just wanted to offer a little bit of clarity for Senator Bray and for some of the questions that have just come up. If this is going to be dealing with the application of the open meeting law to these general meetings that was bringing up. There are really two instances where the two other designated public places comes up. The first is in announcing the time and place of a special meeting. And when you hold a special meeting in addition to posting you have to publicly announce and publicly announcing includes a press release that would be issued to the editor of a newspaper. Probably, although it's not expressed in the open meeting law, the newspaper of record for that particular public body. The municipality there is not obligated to buy ad space they just have to announce to the media organizations that serve their area that this special meeting is happening. The second instance, and the open meeting law that you are concerned with here is the posting of agendas and the municipalities are required to post in two categories of locations. The first is if the municipality has a website, then they have to post the agenda on their website. They don't have a website obviously they're not required to but if they do they're required to post it on their website. And the second is that they have to post it in or around the office of the clerk of the municipality and in two designated public places in the municipality. And then pointed out, because of that separation between that electronic posting place and then the way that that phrase is put together to other designated public places in the municipality. Those are physical locations. So, I guess I'm feeling even more confused than I was before but if we just eliminated that phrase and two other physical locations in the community shouldn't and didn't say anything more at all does that take care of what we need to do. I'm going to get the part of the base request, which would be the municipalities would still be posting in or around the town clerk's office. If it's a special meeting, there would still be the requirement that it is publicly announced. When you're talking about the agendas there would still be the requirement that if the municipality has a website it gets posted to the website, and then it gets posted at the town clerk's office. Right. That I mean and it doesn't require people to pay for an ad in the newspaper or anything else. If, if it's a legal notice then they would have to do that but if it's an agenda or minutes they wouldn't necessarily we don't want I don't think we want to add more, more requirements to them now than they have currently have. I thought we were just taking away those two public places. I thought so too. Chris. Okay. Well, for taking away. I think the phrase that Tucker. Did I get this right to other designated places in the community. Yes. Right. So, You could also cite to and then that's been interpreted as physical locations. If you said two other designated places. You know, physical or electronic in the community. You could open the door to however makes the most sense for them to get the word out. But aren't they already required to do it on their website and they are for special meetings or anything else they're required to notify the newspaper of record. Right. So, I mean, I guess we could put two other that they are required to do at least two other places that could be electronic or physical. If everybody felt more comfortable with that. That's what I thought we were saying. That's the direction I thought we were heading anyway. That instead of three physical locations there'd be the town clerk's office and two other locations electronic or physical. Does that and john Mike. Well, I, you know, if there could be in some way that the newspapers could be included and I'm not saying that because we're looking for revenue, even if there's no financial incentive or no, no financial penalty for you know, a newspaper could receive such notices and choose to print them without compensation is what I'm saying and the part of this and I know that's probably not your name germane to this discussion but there there might be a slippery slope here if if if local governments start funneling all of their stuff different porch forum and and and excludes local media from that equation. You know, it just it's going to continue and you know we'd like to be part of of the process and yeah, I mean that's kind of part of the way I feel about it so that if we could be copied on fun stuff that that is sent to other electronic media that would that would be good under the law under the law right now. Every newspaper can ask that copies of agendas be sent to them and I think most towns carry them over from year to year you're supposed to ask every year but you know, I think once you get on a distribution list for like the Woodstock select board I'm sure that the Valley News and the Vermont standard get the agendas and everything like that so that's those are going to the question is the actual agenda that like I said that says, you know, flag salute approval of minutes, public to be heard, you know, police department, the discussion of speed limit, you know, all those things that are on a regular agenda. That's what I think we're discussing here is, how does the public know what exactly they're going to be talking about. If they're, if there's a line or just to fire the police. The people on know it as opposed to just that there's a meeting on Tuesday night that the select board is meeting. So what if we, what if we word it this way that the near on or near the municipal cider whatever however that language is exactly, and two other places, electronic or physical at least one to be the newspaper of whatever that word is that they record. Yeah. That works for me I mean when I said, when I said before about two other places electronic or whatever I kind of was presuming newspapers was one of them for you to choose. I just didn't phrase it right. Yeah. Brian. Yeah. I'm sympathetic to Mike and john. There are places in Vermont that don't have consistent dependable internet access. So you can put it on the website all you want but if nobody can get to it, he really doesn't do any good. I think there still has to be forgive me for saying it this way some old school way for people to get the message and so I agree that we should, we should call out newspapers as one of the acceptable methods. When did you I think the only concern with this would be the cost that would go into the posting, and it's considerably expensive to do newspaper posting for town so I think that it's, you know, other than the cost of the gas and the paper to post in a grocery store is considerably less than the cost of posting for every town or newspapers. So I think that would be a concern for my town. So I think I'm just talking. Are we just talking during this emergency period we're not talking. Yeah, yeah, but, but it's not that much. Just a cost. Hold on. Even during this emergency period which could last for some time and could pop up again in the fall. There is a cost so Mike when you said that right now. I think the editors can ask towns to send them all the minutes and the agendas. If they choose to print those do they charge the town or do they just print them because I don't want to incur extra costs for the towns, but we want to be able to have stuff out there so how do we charge right now if, if the town of Putney sends the agenda and the minutes to the Brattleboro reformer. The reformer can do anything it wants with those right it doesn't have to print it exactly like it is it can say there's going to be a meeting Tuesday Monday night and they're going to talk about the should we change from a town manager form of government that they handle that now. Essentially, one of two or three different ways, one they can just list it as a meeting in a whole government calendar of here are the town meetings for Wyndham County, and show who's meeting on which nights. Once they get that agenda. They get a news story if they are going to fire the police chief or whatever if they see something on the agenda and want the public to know about it. And, and the third way is that they would just buy, buy an ad that would include and show everybody exactly what is on the agenda for the Monday night meeting. Every town is different. Every, every town and newspaper is different. And we're not just talking here about select board meetings and deep DRB meetings. We're talking about the tree committee and the cemetery committee. And do we really want to have towns have to pay for putting an agenda for the cemetery committee and, and then minutes for the cemetery committee in every time. Again, a lot of the government meetings have been canceled. I know several towns say they are meeting until May at least, they've canceled all government meetings. So, there aren't that many. And, and I will tell you that that the standard posting of agendas is commonplace in advertising in a lot of other states from on it is is somewhat unique that they don't require publicity of agendas and things like that from what I've been told. And then people pay for it in all those. Yeah, in all those other states. Their towns must have be a little more flush than ours. Well, it's not that expensive. I mean, where are we? I thought that we were only talking about eliminating two physical locations. That's sort of what I thought we were talking about. So Tucker, do we have the, the kind of suggestion that I made two other sites, electronic or physical at least one to be the newspaper of record does that work. Does that work with anybody except Anthony and me. Yeah. Okay, I see Chris. I see Brian. I hear Allison. She's lost words. No, I was wanting to say something. Okay. I think, I think that I wouldn't I mean as much as I love our local weekly papers I wouldn't necessarily put that burden on. For a notice, I mean, my Billings Park Commission is not going to pay for an ad for a notice in, in the Vermont standard, we just not going to do that. You know, for our next meeting, it's just crazy to think that the commissions all these small little commissions are going to do that. I think such using the website and the, and the posting your town hall and somebody's been sticking it up at the EMS building. And I just not, I think to have to pay for a notice of a very small little town commission is too much to ask. I agree. But I wouldn't put the paper of public record I think that's too much for an open meeting agenda for small commissions. It could get pretty costly if you have, if the newspapers are going to charge. And I would just say whatever to other places they come up. Anthony did you. Oh, you were putting yourself on mute. Okay, where are we. What, why can't we just say to other place to be flexible. And currently, the newspapers can request that the town send them the agendas and the minutes for meetings. Am I correct about that. Tucker, you're shaking your head. Yes. And yeah, any town. Okay. Anybody can not just newspapers and citizen. So if the newspaper makes that request and the, and it comes and there's something of interest in there that the new, like our bellows falls. Just fired their town manager and their canine. Yeah, dog. They fired that fabulous new town manager. Well, they didn't renew her contract so she quit. Oh my God, she was great. Well, yes, I'm not going to go into that. Because they didn't think so. We have the, we have the world listening to us perhaps so I will be quiet, but those so if the, if they sent the agenda to the reformer and the reformer says, Wow, this looks pretty interesting. They're going to talk about the contract for the town manager or they're going to talk about the, the police dog. They could do a story on it or they could print it, but it wouldn't necessarily be a legal notice that they would have to print the whole agenda they would get the whole agenda, whatever they chose to do with it. It's just the way it works now right, we don't require towns to print the and pay for the entire agendas and minutes. Now. In, if I could just give one perspective as a as a reporter if, if we could be, if it could be said that we should be copied on whatever public notices are sent out to other electronic sources that we demanded it would be we'd be one of the recipients. Yes, then we would have the discretion to, to print that, or as much of it as we as space will permit. And then it would also certainly inform us about kind of the news coverage capabilities I we have some town clerks in our area and Addison County who unfortunately reflexively send all of their public notices to front porch for more through the town's Facebook site and have bypassed the local paper, you know, not recognizing that a good many of our seniors don't use social media or email to get their news. So that if we could it could be said that we should be one of the recipients the mandated recipients for those notices that would be great. Okay, that makes sense. Allison. All right, on weekly papers if you have a meeting that is called within a week with, but keeping with the two 2048 hour notice requirement. You're not going to get it posted in time. I mean, paper, it's just too long a lag, sometimes between the deadlines and when the meeting might be, but, but it's posted online, but if they're just wait, if the newspapers are copied. They, some of them won't be able to meet the timeline some of them might, but we're not going, but they're not required to the town isn't required to have them a notice there they're required to copy the newspaper, the newspaper can put it online if they have an online service, they don't have to do anything with it they could send out a reporter, if they, if it sounds interesting to them or they could ignore it. But if we just say that they are to should be copied on every notice that goes out to these that is posted on the town site, the municipal office. And at least two other places physical or electronic and that the newspapers are copied. The newspaper of record is copied on all of those notices. And that's just punching in a website or an email address. It doesn't sound very complicated to me, I, I write a column periodically and I just put in the three newspaper outlets that I deal with and send it off it's. I know I do that to seven and I do that but I know that that runs are and some anyway, fine. If they send it out, and the newspaper doesn't get it till after the meeting. At least they've sent it. And a percentage of us I would wager have our own websites as well at this point. Yeah, but we're talking. Primarily, we want newspapers because of those people like me, who still read my physical newspaper every morning. Me too. I'm right with you. So, Tucker does something like that work. Yeah, I can work. When would you like to have language ready. When. Sorry. This muting button thing it's a little confusing. I, I, we were hoping for it as soon as you could. That would be great. I think the language that you're proposing for at least noticing the newspapers without any, you know, money exchanging hands I think that's a lot better I think that is doable. And then only would be how many other places would they have to send the notice out with that that email sent off to, you know, the Herald be considered one of the notices. Would it not, would you still keep the town clerk posting like what what would what would be the, but because right now it's three places right. But it sounds like maybe we're going to four places there'd be two electronic plus the town clerk plus the newspaper. My concern would be that maybe if a town is already having a post to a website. If they have one, they might not have two other electronic places plus the newspaper so maybe one electronic in addition to the newspaper. No, it says, I thought we said two other sites, electronic physical. Okay. And newspaper, the newspaper record to be copied. Okay, that sounds good. Okay, I was my apologies I was a little confused, but that sounds good. Yeah, and I think that solves everyone's problem I think that the newspapers are in the know you know whether they get it, you know, and it's off time to print is, you know, I guess another story but, you know at least they're getting noticed, and towns officials aren't having to go out and post in places that that people aren't seeing this. So we are. We are, we don't have permission to Brian, did you have a question or are you fixing your glass. Okay, okay, I just want to make sure that you get hurt if. Okay. We have not gotten permission to vote on this. If you could write something up, I will go to the rules committee, ask them if they can perhaps have a quick meeting on Monday or one day next week. We will not be, we are meeting on the floor in a floor session on Monday, at which time we will be voting on the bill that we did around the property taxes with the VLCT and, and we'll be voting on that on Monday and then we probably, we might have another floor session by the end of the week and if we could have it ready for that. That would be great, but we may not have another floor session because I would love to get it be able to get it over to the house so they could deal with it. They apparently might have a floor session on Friday. So, Jeanette, yes, you might ask the president for Tim, if there could be rules, a quick rules meeting this weekend and get it so that we could get it on the calendar for Monday. I would not go on the calendar for Monday anyway and be, and I would, I think that this one could end up having a lot of questions and I think that it would be better to have to put it off until the end of the week or even next week because the house will not be in a position to take it up yet anyway and I'd rather get all the questions answered from the senators before we go to the floor. Brian. I brought up the house so Mike mentioned that he had testified before the House Government Operations Committee yesterday. Are they also going to craft something that might be another way to do it is to wait for them to do it on Friday and then we could incur. As far as I know, Senator, there was nothing requested to be drafted or anything like that. This was just more of a discussion to see and there was, there was three topics that they were talking about yesterday and this just happened to be one of them. Never mind that. Thank you. And I think they have they have such a build up of bills that we've been sending over that they at this point are still responding to what we're sending them. But I will, I will also contact Sarah Copeland Hanses and John Gannon and John Gannon. I don't know if he's out there listening or not but he listens to many of our most of our meetings so that he can keep up up with what we're doing. So Tucker does that work if we could have it. We're meeting again on Tuesday afternoon. Yes, you, I will get it ready before then so that you can have it and consider it and you what you will with it. I would not be doing my lawyerly duties if I didn't ask this question. What do these locations. Do you want them to be designated electronic locations. Now, what do you mean that we would designate them. The legislative body of the municipality would actually have to vote on what these locations would be which would be their way of announcing or designating what these new locations would be. It's important whether you want that word to appear or not. I, I see that when what do you think. So I'm, what was the question again whether or not to have the legislative body determine that or not to determine that. The question is whether to have these be designated locations. Having the legislative or public body that is making the announcement. Designate what the locations are going to be ahead of time by some official act or whether it's just required that they post it when they are posting it to two locations. Yeah, I think just given the nature of how things are moving right now, I think that it makes more sense to just leave it open for them for each body to sort of do with. It seems that because it's going to be hard to gather every single body to make a determination for what would be theirs or to have a legislative body make the determination for another body. Like the DRB doing their postings under, you know, title 244464, you know, those areas. So I would, I think it would be better to just leave it and just say doesn't have to be designated just have to be those up to the bodies to make the determination. Could it be, could we say something about that each, each body or each entity needs to be consistent and where they post it because I don't think it makes any sense for the select board to post on the town. Well, they have on the town website one week and front porch that week and then the next week to do it on Facebook and someplace else I think that they need to be somewhat consistent about where they're posting so I don't know how to word that. And also one of them, if they have a town website needs to be the town website. Don't we have that already. Tucker, don't we. I think I may have caused confusion by using the word legislative body. The question is whether the public body that is going to be making these announcements and posting these things should be required to designate the location that they're going to be posting on. So we're designated. If it's included will require them to name the place that they're going to be posting these two. So the parks group might be posting at a different place than the cemetery commission, but they would each determine to those places where they're going to be so people know can consistently find their postings. Instead of changing them every week Anthony. Do we currently make them designate where they're going to post the public ones. Yes, we do. It is a designated location. So it says the grocery store is like official. Right. What I understand. And again, I'm not out there practicing with the municipalities. The municipality designates locations for purposes of, you know, their legislative body. And then most of the other public bodies that are operating within the municipality will also use those locations. And I think it's important for me because the clerk is typically the municipal officer who is kind of broadly handling the posting of these notices and stays consistent with where they're being posted. I actually like that. Chris, did you have a, I thought I saw your hand up. You would really urge you to sort of mandate like the select more dozen, like Tucker said, where, where you designate for the whole town, so that the cemetery commission isn't doing it one way. The planning commission another way. And, and you've got to guess and try to remember who's doing what it's just easier. Absolutely. I agree with you the legislative body should make that decision. Yeah, it makes sense. All right. So, at least one, two other sites. If the electronic or physical designated to other designated sites electronic or physical, if the town maintains a website, one of them has to be the town website, and copies have to be sent to the newspaper of record. Correct. And the reason that I asked about the designated is that this may be very simple temporary provision because everything that you're discussing including the posting on the municipal website if one exists is already in the underlying law. So is the designation. So the change would be that instead of the two other designated public places in the municipality, you just allow them to use an electronic location. Perfect. Good. Is everybody okay with this sounds good to me. Everybody seems to be in agreement. Yep. Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. So if we can see some language by so we can just have a short discussion on it on Tuesday. I think Tuesday we're doing title searches and the training the academy. I think we should have a little bit of time at the very beginning that we could do this. Does that make sense. Yep. Okay. All right. Anything else. No. Thank you, Mike and John. Thank you. And so once again, Susanna, I see her little name down there and we might learn from this. Yeah. I would like to make some more permanent changes about the way we do things in the future from. I would like, I like also always to see you Susanna, but you don't show yourself very often. There you are. I don't, I don't mean to be coy. I just didn't know if you wanted to see me slurping on tea the whole time. Yeah. Yeah. So yesterday, Senator Bray muted himself on his video for a while. Cause he was eating a sandwich. So we're used to that. Anything else committee that. So. Next week, I believe that's what we're going to do is on Tuesday, the. Title searches and the academy on Tuesday. And this bill. And then on Thursday, we are going to look at. I believe Thursday was when we scheduled. Looking at. Community that risk more. A little bit more conversation about. About the voting, just if there were more suggestions or things that had. Been incorporated from our last discussion and hearing other issues that have come up there. I. A couple of people have asked to participate in that. And I think one of the issues that we should talk about is the racial. The bias incident reporting. And that was kind of between here and judiciary. About what, what is bias related reporting. And bias incident related reporting. And how do we make it consistent across the state so that we. We know when there are incidents. Happening. And not necessarily even making them a crime, but so that we can keep track of them. So that we can keep track of them. So that we know what's happening out there. So I would like to, I think there is. A group that's been working on that and hear from them. About that. Cause that deals with law enforcement. And. Are there other. Other issues. Right now that we can think of. Nope. No. Just stay safe this weekend. Yeah. And that Gail. Before we go, Senator. I think there is a group that's been working on that and hear from them. About that. Okay. Before we go, Senator. I know that on Friday of next week, we were going to talk about anything that came up from today regarding municipalities. And I don't know if we have anything that we've. Identified yet. When are there other things that have come up. We, I mean, yeah, everything. There's a lot of things coming up. I mean, I'm not sure if we're going to be able to do that, but I think we're going to be able to do that right now. So I had heard the testimony yesterday. And that was a topic of discussion. And we were kind of waiting to see what the agenda was going to be and get it a better feel for. And there's also discussion about having local officials testify. So we have a whole list of local officials that wanted to testify in a whole host of different issues. So. So we're thinking about an RN. I just don't have like a laundry list. Okay. We'll put that on. Did Tucker, did you get my. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because we did. We gave some abilities for municipalities to, or we're going to hopefully. On Monday. Around. Around property taxes, but. Brown Monroe is in a very different situation because they. They haven't had their town meeting yet. They had to cancel it because. Of COVID because they have theirs on the third. They don't have a tax rate on meetings. So they don't have a tax rate. They don't have. Any of that. So. I sent Tucker the. Email from Peter L. Well, and I wasn't sure. If it was recoup would require additional legislation, Tucker, or if you've even had time to look at that. I did have an opportunity to look at it, madam chair. And the. Message that you sent me was a general. The general provisions of the municipal property tax bill that you all voted on. I think if you go all. If you go all the way down to the bottom, there are four. Particular requests for the town of Brattle. Bro. All right. I will take a look at them. And it looked like it was four requests that lined up with some of the BLCT recommendations. And I responded that those were. Taken care of by the general provisions of the municipal property tax bill. So. We'll take a look at them and send a response to the committee. Okay. And then. So we could deal with that on Friday also if there needs to be something special for them. Okay. And it isn't that Brattle bro is special necessarily, although it certainly is. But they have representative town meeting. They don't have the same kind of town meeting that everybody else has. So. Okay. Thanks everybody. Do you have anything to add? No, thank you for checking. I don't have anything to add. If there's anything that I can do to help facilitate anything on the admin side, then please do let me know as always. And we're always happy to have you with us. And, and it's really nice to have somebody from the administration consistently. With us. Yeah, it's nice. It's refreshing. Thank you. All right. Have a great weekend, everybody. Bye. Bye.