 Good evening, everyone. My name is Juan, and tonight I'm going to explain to you an experiment I'm working on called the Bukika experiment. And then I'm going to talk about two apps that are central to this experiment and are based on blockchain. Okay, sorry for a second. Yeah, I don't think I'll be able to record. Okay, I'll send you the file later. Okay, basically right now there's four and a half billion people living in cities by the end of the century, we're going to double their urban capacity. Right now, every month, we're building about one Berlin every month. This is happening mostly in developing countries, but the impact of this urbanization is going to be everywhere. With this urbanization, we're going to have pollution problems, and this is already happening in China, India, many Latin American countries, but also in developed cities like Paris and Madrid right now are starting to curb car use because of pollution. Then of course, there is the poverty issue. In the past decade, we've been developing very fast, and developing countries have brought a lot of people into the middle class. But this is partly to the rise of China. In the future, in the coming decades, we cannot expect to have the same growth rate. So basically, what the economic outlook is good, then we're going to end up with a lot of high rises in developing countries, and if the outcome is not so good, we're going to end up with more slums. So this is the challenge, probably the most important challenge for this century, is to see how are we going to accommodate four and a half billion people in cities. So, the Pukik experiment consists of building a building a self-sufficient city from scratch, about three million people. The idea of this scale is that when you need to house so many people, you need something that you can reproduce fast and at an economical pace. And the two objectives of the experiment are to end gender and income inequality and to protect the environment. Right now, we're at the embryonic phase, this research phase, we're developing all the models, basically. And to come up to the population, it will take between 25 to 45 years. It depends on the ecosystem's capacity to absorb human population. One thing that is central to this project is that it's a self-sufficient city. It's not sustainable, smart, green, or any of those labels. It's self-sufficiency. This means there's a physical constraint because you need to produce everything the city needs from its own ecosystem. So, this, of course, is going to change a lot of things. So, I'm going to go really quick to some of the main innovations in these type of cities. Sorry, I'm going to have to take over the dual-stream system of working like that. Okay, so the first thing about the economy is that everything works with cradle-to-cradle manufacturing and everything is circular and sharing economy. So, you don't own a flat, you rent a service apartment, you don't own a car. It's a shared car. And the target is, of course, to reach zero unemployment. How to produce everything is a mixture of going back to handcrafts. So, you produce a lot of things with handmade stuff. You go to the production line for things like LED lights or screws. And, of course, you use new technology like 3D printing for microchips or some outer parts. Another important thing in the economy is that we need to change the behavior. And this is probably the most important thing. So, the whole idea of how the economy is from today, which is by promoting consumption, would have to be changed because here you need to maintain the ecosystem. And then there is a multi-dimensional monetary system. This is one of the apps, but I will go into this in the next presentation. And it also requires, as a self-sufficient city, a different governance system. In this case, it's decentralized, they're a democracy. And, of course, this is a response because in developing countries, where we have this need for new cities, we have a lot of lack of implementation and corruption. So, the idea, basically, is instead of having the typical city structure where you have a major and a city council and you're getting directives from the central national government, you divide the city in 15 different sectors, each representing goods or services that the city needs to provide. Then, each sector, they're independent and they have the same voting power. So, instead of having all the power concentrated in one spot, you have it spread out in these 15 sectors. Each sector, of course, will have a hierarchy with the sector committee on the top. Again, it's not a one-man show, but a group thing. And from then, you have the different levels. The direct democracy is where people would vote often in referendums and elections. This is the second app I want to talk about, so we'll go into more detail when I finish here. And other aspects of this self-sufficient city is, for instance, fractal urbanism, since the idea is to design and build the city from scratch. So, we have the liberty of, instead of using the city grid, which is what we use in cities today, use fractals, which are better optimizing space to build the city. So, for instance, this is one of the models we're using, that is using this pattern for our neighborhoods. You can optimize space. And by fractal, it also means that we will be able to know what type of things we need to build at different scales. So, for instance, in the urban center, the city would, of course, have like a periphery where you have more agriculture and renewable resources harvesting. But in the urban center, you will be able to have these kind of figures where you have like 20% for parks and outdoor sports. And you have food production as well embedded in the city. And the scales, of course, the city, the way it works, the practice is that you divide the city at different scales from the city, district, neighborhood, quarter, cluster and building. And according to the needs of the community, you will be able to know what kind of things you need to build at each scale. So, for instance, at a city level, for a three million city, you need to have only one research hospital where you can have transplants. But in every district, you should have a maternity hospital. And in each neighborhood, a hospital in each quarter, probably a small clinic and so on and so forth. This is very important because in this huge expansion that is going on right now, whether it's for the Chinese model for skyscrapers or slums, we're improvising, we don't know what we're building. This also allows to have a transport system that is based only on bicycles and autonomous vehicles. So instead of having the metro, the bus, the cars and taxis, you can combine everything in only one model. And this, of course, will be very economical for building the cities. The education model will also be a little bit different because you need to rely on the people to be able to produce everything you need. So instead of working like now that we work for diplomas, you can just work on modular education which are smaller courses and this allows the people to have a more flexible workforce and follow their interests. And of course, this can have an impact on a healthier lifestyle by only producing local food and by doing like 13 hours of weeks in sports, I will explain this a little bit in the next presentation. And probably the key factor here is when you really depend on your ecosystem, is when you're really going to be responsible for the ecosystem. Because today we all call ourselves green, but let's face it, the objective we have is we want to make more money and when we make more money we want to buy the Ferrari and even green cities today like Copenhagen and Stockholm, they're importing everything from China and Bangladesh, so in a way we're just outsourcing our emissions footprint, but we're not responsible for the pollution we're creating. Okay, so the two blockchain applications that I'm going to talk are the multi-dimensional monetary system and then the decentralized democracy. Okay, so before I explain this I want to do a quick recap of how the current economic model works from our point of view, not from the banks but for ourselves, right? So let's say we have a job and we're working 40 hours a week, we have let's say net salary is 2,000, in reality it's a little bit more, the accounting cost for the company is going to be higher because you need to pay taxes and other things, right? So what happens is we're going to use this grid to see how we're spending this money, right? So the first thing is we have to pay taxes and that's right off the bat, we don't even see that money. The second thing is we'll have to pay social benefits like pensions and other services that we are deducted automatically from our salary and of course the health insurance, right? So there's another money that goes on the back. Then of course we need to spend money on food and for housing right here, you're going to pay rent or your mortgage or whatever it is. Then there is the transport, which is either public transport or if you have a car you're going to pay for gas and parking. Then you're going to buy clothes and then other things that you like like furniture, books, art, whatever it is that you like. Now let's say we try to keep a little bit fit so in sports we're going to spend a little bit whether it's the gym club or renting a squash floor with your friends. For education we also spend some money which is either an online course or saving for an MBA and then some money for entertainment. Whatever, every month we can also put some money for our holidays and whatever is left we can save to either buy a house or whatever we want to do. So in this analysis we said that it was 40 hours but let's say that with sports and education it really ends up being about 46 hours. Now the multi-dimensional monetary system is working with five dimensions. Four of these are local cryptocurrencies and one is the currency of the host country. This model is flexible so for instance by now I'm using these five dimensions but a different community may decide to have less or more. The beginning of this is to make the social contract a real job contract. So the idea is when you move to these kind of cities you would sign a job contract and this is where we can guarantee the zero unemployment and this job is divided into different works and for each work you get paid in a different dimension. So let's take a look. The first dimension is going to be the food sector work or community work and here you do four hours of work per week and you get paid in digital currency that you can only spend in supermarkets or restaurants. Then the second dimension is your career whatever your passion is of your work and here that we're only working 24 hours a week. And here you will get the house to a service apartment fully furnished and you will get some communications device with all the connectivity. For transport then you get the transport car 24-7 and a mobility vehicle whether it's a bike, a wheelchair, a scooter, whatever it is then you get some money again this is a different digital currency for clothing and some more that you can buy for other things. Note that here this is very little to the other model the current model because everything is based on sharing and circular economy so you don't need to buy furniture you don't need to buy books you don't need to buy all these things that we accumulate today. The third dimension and here is where the 13 hours that I said previously work is the health work. So here you need as part of your job description to do seven hours of work three and a half of meditation and three and a five hour yoga or other mind body training. Part of the idea of this is that countries today spend between 10 to 15% of their GDP in the health sector. So the best way when you're self-sufficient to cut this is by keeping the population healthy. And with these 13 hours of work you're going to get your health insurance with all cost covers of procedures and medicine and you get the membership to all the sports clubs in the city. And as you saw before in the fractal urbanism we can guarantee that there's going to be a lot of these public spaces. The fourth dimension is education so it means you always have to be learning or teaching something, right? And this is five hours a week and with this you're going to get tuition to all the courses that you want to take. And remember here you're always taking courses and you get the materials for these courses. And then you get another currency for spending in entertainment, right? The fifth dimension, this is the local currency of the host country. So this is euros, dollars, pesos, whatever it is, right? And here this is going to be a two hour work for voting duty so this is tied to the democratic system so it means you really need to participate in the democratic system. You work two hours and then it's a bonus for your career. So the project you execute during the year you will get paid in let's say euros if the city were in Germany. With this money of course the first thing you have to do is pay taxes to the national government. You can't escape that one. And then you're going to save money to travel. Finally you could try to save but in the city basically you cannot use this currency. So you're not going to use the savings to buy an apartment or buy a car. So maybe it would be to spend it out there traveling more or buying something outside the city. Okay if you see here when we add all this it's 48 hours a week. In the other model we were saying that in the current it's 46 hours a week, right? So it could be a little bit more and these hours of course these variables you can change them but just to keep that it will give you a more balanced lifestyle. Okay. So one of the text text for the first four dimension is that you can only spend this currency in the city. Of course you cannot take them to other cities and they also expire. You cannot accumulate them. So depending on the production two or three months they will expire. This means that you can reduce the extraction of natural resources. When you cannot accumulate you cannot become super rich it means you're not going to be willing to extract so many natural resources that we're going to use today. And also it's important for inequality because when you cannot accumulate this currency it's easier to share the pie. The problem we're having today is that we're all having this objective of wealth and we're not sharing enough. Then the currencies here are pegged to the natural and human resources. So you probably don't remember but there was a time when currencies were pegged to gold and that's where they got their value from. Today central banks and commercial banks they print money when they need it. So here what we can get through this is to change the objective from economic growth to ecosystem equilibrium. Okay, the payment of course of these digital currencies with your wallet right? And for each dimension you will have a different balance, right? And the way the equivalent of mining in that sense right now is when people work. So every time people work they will clock in hours of work and this is how the pricing is determined because you can actually measure all the goods and services produced in the city and you get actually a pricing that is accurate. Today there's also a pricing and the lack of knowledge that consumers have. For the fifth dimension the currency of the host country one of the things is that you don't need a lot of this currency, right? As a person you can to live in the city you don't need to spend this money. This is also very important and the reason why this multi-dimensional monetary system was developed is because to build cities at the scale that we're going to need to build they better be cheap. If you're going to build great green cities but they're too expensive then they're not going to be affordable for developing countries. With this model of course it would be easier for developing countries to build these cities at a cheaper cost. Now another aspect of this money is that here is with this currency with the bonus is where you reward the creativity and the hard work of people. And then of course this is what will drive the competition to excel and to innovate in the city. Now to mine this money or to get the revenue channels for this currency would be one to reason of course like every city, carbon swaps because the city is very ecological then you can actually get deals and any kind of media content production, IPR or talent management so everything that the city can produce in this non-tangible goods would be their revenue channel. Okay and now for the direct democracy so this app the main objective is to inform people so that they can vote right and the voter engagement the main thing is that here is mandatory for everyone. One of the problems with democracy now is that when they have elections and you look how many people participated of the potential voters it can be from 60 to 30% depending on the country. So it's guaranteed that everybody is part of your job you're going to be working two hours to be informed about this and to vote so this again is breaking the divide of the government out there and the people here because here you're really making the decisions you don't need congressmen to make the decisions you're going to be voting so for referendums you will be able to sectors the different sectors that I spoke of before or the citizens can launch these referendums so the only elections of course this is only the sectors so let's take a look at how a sector can launch a referendum so it could be either the sector committee or an industry committee that launches this and the first thing is they need to decide if it's going to be a policy decision or if they want to get people's feedback so that they can formulate the policy then they need to do some variables like selecting the scope of the referendum if it's going to be for the entire city or just for that specific sector then there's a geographic sector because maybe you just want to work on a policy that's going to affect only a certain neighborhood and then you can add other filters filters like age range gender whatever it is then you actually create the referendum so the first thing you need to do is create the information that would allow the people to make the decision you formulate the questions and then you upload it then of course according to those filters then this is going to be distributed to the key stakeholders or the people who are relevant this referendum is relevant in their two hours of work in the democratic system they will read it and then they will vote the outcome of course is that you can get policies implemented very rapidly like this and of course you can analyze this data to formulate other policy if it wasn't the second option of just getting the people's opinions and the voters get paid right then of course this application also has to have the ability to do it you can follow up so if you voted on something you'll be able to know what happened the project has been executed what are the status and you can also give feedback okay when a citizen launches a referendum then the first thing we need to do is before it goes to the entire city because maybe it's not so important to have a small test so this is going to be done with your friends, with your colleagues and maybe a random group you choose the parameters it's like in the other one you create the referendum questions itself and information and then the test referendum takes place if a critical mass is rich basically you understand okay this is relevant people are interested in this topic then you can actually launch the real referendum a larger sample of the population or the totality of the population okay for elections then again elections can only be in different sectors or industry and these are the entities that will launch these elections one key thing is that in this system there is no political parties so it's only people who are running for office and you won't be working in the same sector so I think this is very critical because today we're having politicians making decisions on the health issues and education and not experts in that field and of course they most have to have a certain level of experience to be able to run for office so as a candidate what you would do is you link your bio from an education map which is another app I will not get into this and you link your voting history so here this is again kind of like with the smart contracts so people can follow what your voting history is and you upload your policy pitch and you fill in a policy survey right then this would also reduce campaigning because when you have this system then you don't need to spend all the money we spent today in the energies in campaigning and you can give also different candidates the same exposure then when the elections take place again the the election itself is sent to the people relevant in the specific sector they will review the information, the campaigns and then they can vote now the ballot is sent then before when I said when you're a candidate you upload you also need to fill a policy survey the ballot would be also filling a policy survey so you don't only vote for a candidate but you're going to vote for certain issues and this is important because the way the candidate is a combination of both the candidate itself and also the policies that you're interested in supporting then of course the benefits of this is that we can move from voting on people and you know after the last year's Trump campaign and actually we're still overloaded with news about Trump you can move into really voting on the issues which is what the democracy is and you can increase transparency and of course save a lot of money on the whole campaigning apparatus that is customary okay so basically I wanted to go fast because there's a lot to cover but if you have any questions interesting bits and pieces here um but maybe I haven't missed some introduction of so if I add all the pieces together then it looks to me like when the dystopian future to live in like extremely restrictive if you didn't regulate it and extremely like instead of giving an equality in freedom it gives an equality by so it's a forceful system so can you maybe expand on what are the values that this whole application wants to achieve actually I know in the beginning it might look a little bit like this and I often hear that it looks like communism because you're not being able to get rich but in that sense in that sense I think the objective is quite the opposite it's giving more freedom in fact to go here you're voluntary and you can get out of the city whenever you want um the idea of the restrictions maybe because of the amount of work you have to do in different areas it's all sorts of things I mean it's all jobs if I if I give freedom I might also choose not to go for example just because I don't care I don't know as an idea it sounds really interesting and then the longer you talk the more I like that in this sense what I envision is more trying to blend right now we have government, business and people out there and this is trying to blend things and by decentralizing you need to take the government the figure of the paternalistic government that solves everything for you and the only way it can work is if you have people really take responsibility you know what I mean if you have a system where you you're not compelled to vote then you will probably end up in some people taking advantage of the system or people making decisions but I mean it's a valid point this is why if you saw the title this is Pukka Experiment and the main thing is to experiment and I'm very flexible with things so I think the idea is to test and see how it goes right yeah but you would try to experiment on a rather big city because you started with you're not going to work in a small city only on a 3 million city so it doesn't seem like an experiment well the thing is to build a city for 3 million people you need to start from zero so in the end you start growing and the target is 3 million but again right now as an experiment we don't know if we can reach that because it will depend on the land and the ecosystem and also the whole model or not but it should be able to work for 2 months Is that the only way it can be introduced but basically starting in a self-contained system and having it grow would it be possible for a city like Berlin to transition into this how would such a transition path look the problem with that is one cost to retrofit the city to be self-sufficient to produce everything it will be more expensive than if you just build it from scratch and second is the political cost for instance if you're going to say ok everybody has to work 2 hours and learn about policy and vote somebody might say hey no fuck you I don't want to do it so in a city where it's only for volunteers then I mean if you're going to go there because you think ok I don't mind participating in the democratic system and if I get bored or I don't like it I can leave What is the definition of a citizen and what is the definition of a citizen and what you say something or what is the amount of hours work well a citizen it will be everyone that moves to the city right I would like to know the definition of citizen whom you would call This is my citizen Everybody that lives in a city is a citizen right I would like to know what is the definition of some human being This being is a citizen of ABC, how you call it? How you call this human being is a citizen of your city. Ah, well, you mean how do you define that this person? Exactly. Well, in most, well, not most, but in a lot of cities in different countries, for instance in Germany, when you move to Berlin, you need to register, right? You need to go to the... But your case is different, your case is, somebody will be a citizen of our city when somebody gives them three things, like for example, some amount of work, some amount of phone, some amount of contribution. Until unless he is not a citizen, how about a citizen, just born? Okay, the way that in the beginning maybe I went too fast is, are you familiar with the concept of the social contract from Brussels? It's like a philosophical, political science that we have this relationship with the governments. And this is kind of like ambiguous, it's just a concept. The idea here is to really materialize it and make it a job contract. So when you move to a city, you sign a job contract and that job contract has these five different works that you need to do. So with this, basically by definition, there will be zero unemployment because everybody would have to work and would have one job. About children that don't work in the city, they wouldn't sign the contract? No, no, no, when they're 15, they would sign the contract but of course they will get all the benefits because they're children, but ideally you will have children with a parent, not alone, right? So second question is what is the definition of work? Of work. So as a job, when you sign your job contract, basically you want to move to Pukica, you say, okay, I want to try it. Then the first thing you're going to do is sign a job contract. And this means you're going to have work, for sure. Why? For sure in the food sector, in the health, doing sports, in the education and in the voting, right? The other question is how can we place you in your career, right? But that can be done, and I mean, so right now I'm wanting to do this, but it can be done one way or another, right? And then the work is then, and this maybe ties a little bit to what you do, like when you have a job and you need to do a report, right? Write a report. You don't tell your boss, no, I'm just not the report kind of person, I don't want to do it. You have to do it, it's part of your job description and you have to do it. Here is the same thing. When you sign the job contract, you're aware of what you're getting into and you know that you need to work a certain amount of hours in doing sports and in the democratic system and et cetera, et cetera. So these are like tasks for your work that you're going to get paid for. Yes, but if I am in certain work, then other people, so I would like to have more than a bit, than the others. That's why the fifth dimension of the money, which is the real currency. I was doing, so I would earn more than others. And as the first slide you said, first on the slide, that you are going to create some epicures, happiness type of society, where people would not have trouble for shopping, shopping, shopping idea, there's a lot of things. So where I would spend all my deficit all my store savings. Traveling. That's where you do the same thing. I think what's very important for the idea, which I like very much, is by coupling monetary money with natural capital. Because I think this is the most important problem with sustainable job. You cannot do it because the capital and the money just grows with different flows. And it drives consumption, and consumption drives sustainability. But what's your idea? Because it's very important to measure, like you have an amount of x amount, that you need to measure some kind of natural capital, or you will measure natural capital, or you will measure ecological food. What, how do you balance this thing? You measure the manpower, basically the amount of hours people work, and then the production. So that's why there's dividing dimensions. So in the food dimension, you measure all the output of food the city is producing. Yeah, but how do you link back to the natural capital? This question, because I understand there could be some kind of monetary. You think internal monetary or I don't know, like capital currency, some kind of city, and I think this is the most promising idea, which I like the most, is that you link that with natural capital. So there is some kind of link between our society, which is linked to a lot of natural capital, which is the city. How you will link it. Like natural capital, you mean like the land, or the... You know what I mean, we have diversity and government production. Yeah. Which you are... Self-sufficiency, I think. I think the question maybe you can understand greatly is, what kind of measurements do you have to attain the self-sufficiency to ensure that... How is it... We were talking about giving people five different currencies for different kind of work, this kind of action in a social contract. But how do you maintain the self-sufficiency? Or is your self-sufficiency definition, I would say, you have to have some kind of measurement to ensure the self-sufficiency. And the natural thought would be that a currency or one currency at least, is connected to the consumption of the natural resources inside the city boundaries, and it has to be inside the city boundaries, otherwise it wouldn't be self-sufficiency. Yes, or a commercial food. Yeah. No. Okay, basically, here we're not going to try to have a variable of biodiversity, because that will be giving like a subjective value to biodiversity, right? No, it's not true. I think the United Nations has a lot of things done in the United States, actually, the national capital. So it's, it can be done. You can actually, you can calculate the changes of national capital, it's not there. Here maybe to, to give an answer that maybe can tie both questions is, in the part where I was talking about the urbanism that works with fractals in these algorithms, then you're going to assign certain areas of the total land to food production, to renewable resources, right? And when you start growing the city, then you see what is the real capacity of that ecosystem to house people, right? So the self-sufficiency means we're planning for three million, but if you start growing, you realize, okay, sorry, in this particular climate, it's only for one million, we cannot grow it anymore, then you stop there and you're self-sufficient. And going to you, like, the idea of the monetary is to take it away from this financial cloud where we have money and just bring it to how we use the money. And the idea is that you just measure how many tomatoes produced and you see how many people you have and that demand is going to give the pricing. I know about like this things, but I think it's just adding a layer of complication that it takes the use of money from the people. It just makes it like some nice numbers in United Nations presentations, but the key thing here is that you know that certain area of the city has to be protected. You cannot touch and then you can hold down the population. And your money and certain proportions just as you like for different things is generally viewed as one of the biggest achievement of general form of money in contrast to trading economy. So why would people want to revert that and be tied to earning money in the field where they would really like to spend it in contrast of like, for example, me as a developer earning my money in one field and spend it across many, many other fields where I don't earn a cent worth of that. The first part is why have different currencies, right? Yeah, why would I favor this system or that I am living especially in a country like Germany where most people or many people are specialists in one certain field? Okay, this is kind of like a, what I'm trying to do here is have a B plan for what's coming up next. So right now if you were in the fourth largest economy of the world in the capital and you have a cool job then you would say, you know, fuck it, I want to be, at least try to be rich or as good as life as possible. But remember, we're getting three and a half billion people more and the usable land is shrinking, like the resources are shrinking and we're always betting on technology. Somehow we'll figure it out. But I think we're getting to a point where when you have billions of people extra in the planet as it is today with the pollution levels that we have today and the inequality that we have today, we need to find a solution for developing countries. Basically, if you're a rich country, you will probably have no interest in following this model. But the option is what are we gonna do with the billions of people out there? Because if they try to follow this model, like what happened with China, then they're just gonna absorb more resources and create more pollution. So now for developed countries, the way I see it is that developed countries are also in a phase of decline, relative decline, right? And population is aging. So I think there's gonna come a point in time where we're gonna just rethink how we're doing things. On a macro level, on a personal level, when you're questioning about like the different currencies is it was more related to the reason why you have the food money compared to the health money is because to come up to a real pricing, when you're mixing tomatoes with t-shirts, then it doesn't work as an ecosystem, what you're just trying to figure out the balance of what the earth can produce. Okay, but is that model really, isn't it focused too much on production? I mean, we had the socialism, we had the USSR, which tried focusing the economy really, really strongly on the output of production. But how would that fit? For example, if I'm doing a consulting job, so this is completely immature where somebody pays me for my time, I'm gonna tell him some stuff he would like to know. How would that fit in this model? Here, the second dimension is your career work. And that, even if you're doing what you say, like a consultant, then you get paid the same amount as someone producing food or producing clothes. And then you would be competing for money on the fifth dimension, which is the euro, they say. But then you're competing with the people in all the consultants. And that's how you can make more money than those consultants. But if I may, one last question. The ability to be allowed to accumulate wealth is what basically drove prosperity in the old Germany compared to the social, this thick part of Germany, because there was an incentive to be creative and invest in maybe when you're older, then have a little bit more money to look from. If you would try again to take this away, don't you see any problems in that? I think that the fifth dimension is where you can have differences, right? So you could make more money than the others. In the others, no. And an analogy I often make is comparing like the system in Germany with that of the US. In Germany, people don't mind subsidizing the health insurance of unemployed people, right? While in the US it's more like everybody is on their own. So it's more changing, taking that concept, but a step further, where you can still have more money than other people. But in things as food, shelter, education, and health, it's the same for everyone. Of course, this again goes to a personal level. If somebody thinks, no, I mean, I want to make shit lots of money, then okay, you will never move to the city. But remember, the reason why I think this can work is because there's literally billions of people who are pretty bad. And for them, this would be great. Then the question is, how can you attract middle-class people to this kind of city? And then this is more a lifestyle and a philosophical question. But I think there's enough people in the world to at least build one prototype city where you can see. And one of the things I'm confident in is that when you think about money, it's mostly to buy things, to accumulate, to have a bigger house, more car, or whatever. But if you live in a sharing a circular economy, you can have a better life. You think about the car. Of course, the Ferrari is beautiful and it can help you pick up a lot of chicks. But a service where you don't have to work more than 300 meters to get into an autonomous spot and then drop you there faster. Because actually the model we're working here is faster than model with trains and buses and cars. Then if you think about the benefits and not just possession, then I think you can get enough people to go alone. Question, what makes you a citizen? And then you said it is my choice, but you're going to. But there's probably also some sort of penalization that needs to be built in the right system. Like something that expensive from your right of being a citizen. You said that wasn't a new civilization of these types of systems? No, basically the idea would be to handle it kind of like in a business world. When you have a job and you're not doing your job, you get fired. If you get fired, you can just out of the city. It's getting the social contract to a literal level. Like if you want to be part of a community, you will have a lot of benefits. And if you see here, you will have a lot of benefits. But you need to give in return and you can leave if you don't like it, if you get tired. But the idea is to be mature about it, right? And you need to give back. No, I made it short. But yeah, it would have to. You need some sort of law. In this sense, it has to be attached to the legal system of the country. It'll be very difficult to try to come out with a different legal system. I don't think any country would say, okay, here. It's not how we see this development. They develop organically because there's a bunch of people together that make small things and contribute to this place that grows like an organism. It doesn't grow but it's stopped down. Somebody makes it. It's not a same city. If you go to the Americas, all the cities were built like this. The Spanish came with an idea and they built the cities. In America, it was the same thing. Yeah, they just eyes you can show them. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In China, I mean, They're like more of a place, generally. You have to think of something. Every city was founded at some point. The thing is right now, we think that cities have been here forever. But every city, there was a point where some people said, okay. No, they grew up. In different continents, they were founded, actually. Just in different time. I think also we have a different time now. Now, as I said, we have four and a half billion people that we need to house. So if we don't come up with the idea of building new cities, we'll just end up expanding the cities. And this is what is happening right now. And if you think of cities, I don't know if you have the opportunity to travel to developing countries. Just imagine any city like Lagos or Rio de Janeiro and imagine with 10 million more by the end of the century. It's not gonna get any better. Should we just invest into the better sexual education then build a new bigger cities? Sexual education. No sex or life. I just feel that I am not proposing to kill people but we don't need those non-belonged people because we have enough production now. The things right now in developing countries, most developing countries, the birth rate is like 2.2, 2.5. It's not high anymore. Now it's the natural curve of having seven and a half billion people. You know, it's just the scale. But right now, if you go to India, they don't have families like before or China or Latin America. Yeah, because when China had those problems, they just limited the birth rate by disallowing the second child. And it's still growing by 50 million every year. Because it's... Yeah, but it seemed to work kind of. Yeah, but it was the education which was enforced. And the reason is that it's not only about sexual education, it's also about the retirement system. I mean, if you're dying, if you have no children, then you will have children. China has just lifted... So it's not that easy. China just lifted one China policy because they need more people. Yeah, here we've also enforced a lot of stuff on people that people are not familiar with or want to be enforced now. Yeah? I want to add back to this question, maybe a little bit. And when you ask about penalizing or how do you measure if someone fulfills his work or... For example, if you just get stoned, it doesn't work, or it doesn't show up, or it... Yeah! Or if someone shows up and just does bad work, like, it's two hours of work by someone maybe a little bit late, but also just not very gifted, work the same as someone who is really talented. I mean, I just want to find out... Yeah. ...the performance. Just saying, if somebody is just giving his best, is this good enough, or have you... Yeah. Here, two things. Yeah, yeah, of course. Two things. One is that the fifth dimension with the real currency is where you get... It's a performance bonus, right? So there's always going to be people who are lazy or whatever. So these people would tend to get less promotions and less get bonus, right? And the second part is also I didn't get too much in the education model where I was changing is is to change the education model and embed it into the work model. So everything works with projects, small projects, like quarterly projects. And then the idea is that you can basically evaluate the performance of the teams on a regular basis, on a quarter. So if you're going to be good, you're always going to be getting your projects done. My question more ties to the minimum. What is the minimum thing that someone needs to do? And what happens if he, by somehow, either by the intention or just because he's not capable, is not able to fulfill this minimum? Or is it tied to his intent of doing something? Even if he's on a project and he just spreads stuff all the time because it's one meter expensive price? Yeah. But I see it. My fear is that if you don't have this, then at a certain point you're going to start to hit the people who don't need it. No, yeah, yeah. The minimum will become more than the sensitivity to come with the company. I think here it's basically kind of like a, hey, hey, rhetoric question in a way, because it's very difficult for, it's very particular to each case, right? But I think you have to be flexible and understand that not every people perform in the same way. And basically the free rider phenomenon happens in every system. So even if you would have some people that are being lazy, there's also people being lazy in this system. So it wouldn't mean that the model is not working. The idea would be how to motivate people. So ideally what I think is, well, if you're having a life that is, you're doing a lot of sports, you're meditating, you have a safety for food and healthcare, then I mean, I think naturally, I believe in people and I think people, we're industrious animals. I mean, we're always dreaming of holidays, but we like to do things. We get bored if we don't do things. I think so too. I just wanted to find out if you, like if someone is just doing the bare minimum and you have someone on the outside who said, well, I wouldn't even worry. Then give him a performance bonus, because, and this is where the performance bonus would go. Or if someone is outside of the city and wants to come into the city. Ah, okay. And he's like, I have a, and you see, or I could probably do a better working than this one. Yeah, you need to do it on case by case, but it's an interesting, I don't know. Who's going to hand out those bonuses? The sectors themselves. As in their management or? No, the idea is to create like a mechanism that whenever you finish a project then you get points for finishing that project. And that's already in a transparent system where people can see the projects you work with and the success of these projects. So take this example of the consultant. How would you rate a good consultant versus a consultant that which padifies? The idea is over time. If you get complaints, then, I mean, this is a rating system for every industry, right? So it's a reputation, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And make it open. The idea is to make it open. Let's take one last question, Rams. You said the fifth dimension, you can earn some money. So you are able to travel out of Pukina, but how do you travel in if you have no money to spend it on? How do you spend some nights in Pukina? And its benefits is to travel outside and the model Pukina is working and it's more and more cities like it with local currencies are evolving. How is the, and so the, I think Euro benefit you're getting from work towards the Euro is sinking and you are not able to travel outside Pukina anymore? If you have many self-sufficient cities with this model, do you mean? Yeah, first of all, how do you travel in if you come from another city like Berlin and there's Pukina nearby? Okay, as a tourist, do you mean? As a tourist, how do you sweep there if you are not able to get some local currency? Actually, in one of the mining for the fifth dimensions, the first one was tourism. That's how you make money. So the idea of you're a tourist, you pay per day basis and then the other problem where you have a lot of these cities and then there's less of euros in the world, that's a problem I would like to have. But I would be like maybe three, 400 years down the road.