 Greetings. Morning, Jerry. Good morning, how are you doing? Okay. Good. You're self-okay, I hope. Managed to give myself a little twinge on my hip yesterday, but otherwise, good. We all are pretty much locally good, surrounded by difficult circumstances. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And trying to figure out what to do about it. Right. How to live. Understand. How to live. Exactly. How to live when we need it. So crates. They're so crates. Yeah. We're building Ted when we need them. They could fix history. Hey, Dave. Hey, how are you guys doing? Good, how are you? You're away from home. Yeah. Charlottesville, Virginia. Oh, man. Yeah. Sweet. Looking after the mother-in-law. Hi, Grace. Hi guys. Grace, have you been following the emergent event since making stuff that Pete has been doing? I forget what you're doing. I'm not. I don't even know what you're talking about. Excellent. Which is why I'm bringing it up. So I'll wait until the turmoil with camera is over. And that might be a long wait, my friend. Oh, apparently there's more turmoil than we thought. Yeah, there's more turmoil when I get in the right way. But yeah, no, I don't. Yeah, I'd like to know what we're talking about today. I mean, I do have quite a lot of things going on. So I just want to make sure it's like, yeah. I kind of came along because I didn't want you guys to think that I was so insulted that I stopped coming. But I've been having so much pressure at work that hopefully it's on a topic where I can learn and contribute. And if not, no offense. I'm going to move on and do work. Sounds totally great. And this is just a normal check-in call. So we're going to go around the room and see what people are working on that is OGM-E. And if you'd like, we can go touch your, whatever you're doing early so that you can feel free to drop off. And then we can actually hear what you're up to, which would be great. And so Pete Kaminski started a conversation on, and he started a new Mattermost Chat channel basically around emerging events, sense-making around the Delta variant of COVID. And he's like, how do we filter all the information? There's like way, way too much information coming in. It's really hard to make sense of what's happening. There are lots of nuances to what's going on. There's data being missed, all kinds of stuff like that. How do we make sense of that? And there was a call yesterday that he hosted on Zoom around this that I think he's recording and posting them online and stuff like that. So you could take a peek at it if you wanted to. But I think you'd find the conversation actually useful and interesting to what you were bringing to our last call, to the last conversation we had when you were here. So happy to, and I'll put some links to he meaning Pete Kaminski. I think you just dropped in. Yeah, I think you dropped into the middle of that conversation, Gil. And I like the emerging events since making a lot because I think that we as an entity, whatever we is, and there's a call Friday to figure out what more about what do we think the entity is need to get good at managing events and making sense of them. If we're going to be about sense making might as well be about important things that are happening in our lives and helping people navigate their way through those things. So that's the intent of the emerging events since making and I'm hoping that we can generalize from that process some general lessons about event processing together as a community, right? I mean, on Wikipedia, they figured out to have current events pages. There was a brief, the Wikimedia Foundation so the whole larger Wikipedia project briefly had a Wiki News site project. I don't know if it's even still alive but I think they rapidly figured out that you can't untangle the news from the encyclopedia easily. So now there's like current events kind of pages in the Wikipedia itself and that gets really interesting and their ability to be up on the news quickly and sort things well is great. And one of the things that Pete screen shared during the call yesterday, I think it was during that call it might have been in a separate conversation I had with Pete was he went to the category COVID-19 page on Wikipedia. And for those of you who don't know you can tag up any page to put it in an inside of a category. It's kind of a form of internal tagging. And it turned out that there was this really, really rich like amazingly rich taxonomy of tags inside of Wikipedia around COVID-19 and effects on animals or this or that like each of those was a category that would that told you how many pages were under that category that had a whole bunch of really interesting metadata about how all of that worked. So, and that was just one kind of resource one kind of place to go. Anybody else who's been involved in the emerging event since making want to jump in and say something about it as well. There are being no takers. Let's proceed to the round of round of four round of 16 or whatever it is. And I will urge us to use the Mattermost Chat as our the Mattermost Chat channel called calls OGM in brackets and then calls as our chat. So we have a more persistent chat. And let's go, Grace, do you mind if we start with you? And we'll go, we'll go, Grace, Ken Stacey. Yeah, so I've just been continuing to work on my reputation currency project. We're going to be doing a design sprint in September up up in Germany, just confirming the dates for that. I've been getting a lot more referrals from a lot of people asking about different governance models. So that's been really exciting. That's going on. That's that. Sounds great. Ken. I am just posting the Mattermost Chat into the chat so people who don't have it handy can access it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Wow, Grace, that was so fast. I thought I had a minute to breathe. Good morning, evening, afternoon, or maybe nice to see some old friends and new friends. Probably the most OGME thing I'm working on is thanks to Matt Saye, I've been hired as part of a facilitation team to work on a diversity and inclusion project for a global financial services firm. So there's another company involved that created an 80 minute slide deck that we walk people through. And right now we're working at the director level. So these are all very senior people. And I would say that my personal experience is probably 80 to 85% of the folks are really on board with this and get it and they're very aware. And then there's a cohort of mostly over 50, mostly white people who are like, I don't get pronouns, you're their man or woman, that's it. And there's just this recalcitrance on their part of opening their minds to understanding the difference between impact and intent. If I give you a compliment, it's meant as a compliment. If you take it as an insult, that's your problem. So it's just really interesting to try and help broaden these people out. So what I try to do is say, if you come from a dominant culture and you're saying, wow, you're so articulate, it may genuinely be a compliment on your part, but understand that if you've been part of a non-dominant culture, some has been traditionally marginalized and underrepresented and you've heard your entire life, wow, you're so articulate, the unwritten part being for a black person, a brown person, a woman, whatever, to put yourself in their shoes and respond not from a defensive, I meant it as a compliment, but from curiosity of, thank you for helping me understand that, what else do I need to know? What would it look like or sound like if I were to compliment you in a way that landed well for you? And I'd say 10% are getting that and they're still 5% are just like, nope, I'm stuck, that's where I am. And to their credit, you know, we're told just ignore those people as much as possible, don't try and change their minds. They're the really, they're the hardcore, you're not gonna change their minds. So focus on where the, where people are open and I'm just, I'm learning a lot, I'm having a good time. It's a very interesting company to work with and it's very heartening to see how many people are open to this and really saying, and the scenarios that are used, we're all taken from inside the culture from interviews. So people are saying, you know, I'm not surprised, but I'm disappointed that these behaviors are still here and really would love to see it get eradicated. So it's my great hope that a company like this, which has huge influence in the financial markets is so engaged and involved in working on this and to see how many people are very committed to doing it. So that's my, oh, GME hopeful thing of the week. Thank you, Ken. That's super interesting. Anybody else with questions or thoughts on this? Cause you talked a bit about the trailing edge of people getting it on issues like identity. Is there something fun happening at the leading edge? There's like, what's the positive end of this and the possible effects on the culture or the environment or even the industry or something like that and without divulging any state secrets? Well, it's interesting. A couple of things that come up to give a slight tangent are things that are endemic to every organization I've ever worked with which are complaints about meetings and complaints about senior people. They're saying that the most egregious offenses come from the most senior people which are the old white men who've been there forever. And the question of are we really committed to this? So the good news is the CEO of the company opens this presentation with a three minute video saying, I'm committed to this is my work. I am committed to this, we need to do this. In order to create the kind of culture that will make us successful, we need to be more inclusive. And so I try to shift the focus from microaggressions which many people have pointed out are actually macroaggressions to simply inclusive and non-inclusive behavior and that as more and more people from around the world because this is a global firm enter the workplace we need to slow down which goes against their culture. It's a very speedy culture. Everybody has to be on their feet on their toes all the time and recognizing that someone who comes in with English as a second, third or fourth language might be difficult to understand but they have really brilliant ideas. And if we don't slow down and make it possible for them to express themselves and not feel marginalized because they're an accent they're not gonna get the kind of performance they need to be a market leader. And there seems to be great receptivity towards that. So I don't know a lot between the CEO and the director level. There's a whole layer of management in there. I've not been exposed to them but the fact that the CEO has bought into this and is out there saying this is where we're going that I'm committed to this. I want every single person to do this. My question is how will you stand up to be that person in this company? And this is a financial services firm that you can probably figure out what I'm talking about just because they are extremely progressive. They're leading the charge against defunding from fossil fuels and if they are successful in this I think other companies are gonna follow their lead. So that to me is very, very heartening. And the fact that there is buy-in from the very top the CEO is the champion of this program. And then there's the fact that Matt- Hold on a second. Mark, could you mute your line please? Thank you. Sorry, go ahead, Kim. Then there's the fact that Matt for those of you who've been on the call here with Matt is involved, you know who's such a brilliant guy and such a heartfelt man and deeply thoughtful. It feels like, you know there's just this OGME energy is getting into some juicy places in the world that have real currency for financial services currency and purchase. And you know, this has the potential to really ripple out I think across several influential spheres of commerce. Thanks, Ken. Thanks very much. Gil? Yeah. Yeah, a question. First of all, Ken, thank you very much for that. I love both what's going on and also how you've articulated it. It's rich and deep and thoughtful and hopeful. So thank you for that. I have a question which is not one that I would ask out in the world but I'm gonna guess that it's a safe space to ask it here. Cause it's a weird question. Which is, I don't even know how to quite articulate it. Are there, are there limits to the DEI work? Do we, is it important for us to at the largest scales accommodate to the least to the smallest minorities of us? Does, do you envision this organization accommodating you talk about people whose English is their fifth language? You know, does the organization need to slow down to accommodate that? Or does it need to evolve into something different that can both accommodate that and be what it is or what it needs to be? It's not a well-formed question but you get to drift to what I'm asking. Yeah. Part of the process here is reaching deeper and deeper into both marginalized but also smaller, smaller minorities of people that are different, that differ from the normative culture in various ways. And that's a good thing. But are there, are there system dynamic limits to that? And I don't need an answer right now but I wonder if that provokes any thoughts for you. Certainly there's always system dynamic limits to everything and. And I'll stipulate, we're not close. But I wanna ask the question anyway. Right. So I think that in my experience, slowing conversations down almost anywhere is always a good thing. And to resist the pressure, we're a very extroverted fast-moving culture. And so introverts often don't get the credit and the airtime that they really need and deserve. If you've read Thinking Fast and Slow or Quiet, the Power of Introverts in the World, stop talking, Adam Grant's done a whole search on leadership literature and discovered that it's almost all oriented toward extroverts. And if you have a very extroverted team, you want an introverted leader. If you have a very introverted team, you want an extroverted leader. So just learning how to work with people where they are, more and more neuro atypical people are being hired, particularly into financial and tech firms because they have an ability to focus on detail that most of us do not have. But they also lack certain social and emotional skills and that can be really challenging for the people in the office. So broadening out the emotional and relational intelligence, the social intelligence in the organization, I think can only be a good thing. Well, we get to everybody know, but if we can even expand it just, you know, 10, 20% beyond where it currently is, there's gonna be a huge impact on industry. And the other thing I would say, because you said diversity, equity and inclusion, which is not my favorite phrase. I recently read a paper from, or an article in the Stanford social innovation review written by a black woman who has a company and they say, we focus on dignity, belonging and justice. As soon as you talk about diversity, you're starting to create boundaries and silos and categories, right? And as soon as you talk inclusion, well, if they're included, then who's excluded? But if we look at dignity, are we granting every single person dignity? Are we creating a space where they can feel that they belong and is everybody treated fairly? That's the justice part. So I find that to be a much richer doorway and entry into this conversation, which ain't going away. And, you know, the fact that businesses are now starting to engage with it seriously, whereas some levels of government are just making things worse, I think is really hopeful. Does that help to answer your questions, Gil? It helps very much. Thank you for that. I like the dignity, belonging and justice is very powerful. And Gil, you're next in the check-in. Gil and Michael Doug. No, okay. So like Ken, I'm not prepared. Stacy was next. No, no, no, I'm going to pass. Stacy, in the chat, she said, please give me, so. Oh, okay, I'm sorry. But also, I'm just adjusting while you're here to this morning. I exactly am. And thank you for playing that role, Mark. Yeah. Gosh, okay, so, what can I tell you? I am finding myself weirdly starting to accommodate the notion of not having a physical social life again in the future. A couple of colleagues in mine have been preparing a really juicy workshop for a conference series. I've been part of it as returning to physical this fall. And we're starting to feel like actually two of my partners who are older than me are saying they're not prepared to travel in October. So I'm sort of in theory prepared to travel, but I recognize it may not happen. Extra factor for me, some of you know this, is my wife is immune compromised. And so we have a cascading exposure and I need to be much more scrupulous than folks. So I'm sort of emotionally exploring the possibility of never going to conferences again, or never hanging out with you all in the same place indoors. And that's an extreme case, but that's present for me now as a real consideration and it's very weird. Number one, number two. But before you leave, number one, I mean, never is a long time. If this pandemic were to have a third major spike in last another year, but then slow down and come back to normal, could you see coming back to normal see that? I mean, maybe this gets dragged up, maybe the point is just dragged up further. You know, never is not the real word here, but that's the emotional sense. Yeah, yeah. This could get dragged out. There's a possibility here that we're not looking at the COVID pandemic, but at a pandemic era. You know, the drivers that give us COVID, human wild interface, density travel, declining immune competence in the population, rising temperatures from climate, and so forth, the drivers are all still there. Political conflict that doesn't want us to solve this. Creeping fascism, intentionally driven social fraying, disinformation machinery, well-funded. I mean, you all know this, I don't need to go through the list, but the drivers are all still there. And so the possibility of a successive pandemic or more than one happening is not zero. I'm not saying it's dominant, but it's not zero. So that's some of what's behind that sense. So let me say that. Number two, I need some, at some point, doesn't need to be now, I need some sense making about sense making. Your experience may be different, but my experience is that that's not a term I've heard in my life and culture until fairly recently. And now I hear it everywhere. And I'm truly not sure what it means. But I have a concern, I guess, an unarticulated concern about that being something facile and diminishing rather than enriching, I don't know. So a puzzlement there. So just a question for the future. Before you move on, can we mix that one around in the group for a second? Because I think that's a clear... As much as we want. Yeah, clearly a great question. And I think when humans get together to figure something out, their sense making, so the term is really broadly applicable. It's a little bit like systems thinking, where from my experience, if you scratch three systems thinkers, you'll get six different opinions about what systems thinking in theory is. And so it's worth really sort of diving in and thinking about the issue. Kevin, you wanna jump in? I was just gonna talk about travel. Was planning to go back to Mississippi to my brother-in-law's memorial next week. And Mississippi's infection rate is up 132% over last week. And they're going to do, they're going back to social distancing and masking at the Catholic church where it will be. And they're gonna have a scholarship in his name. And he was a great guy. But it's just, geez, do I go back? You know, vaccinations are up 42% in Mississippi over last week, but infections are up three times as much almost. And I just, I wonder if I can afford to go back to Mississippi right now, even though he was a great friend and my sister-in-law really would love us there. And I just, I will go to conference and we're putting on conferences next spring. We hope people come, I don't know. But right now, you know, the cost for going back to Mississippi is just, it's curious. Maybe a beam, the telepresence company has a special business right now, like dropping beams in memorial services and other events where people want to be present. So you could sort of walk around with whoever is there and try to be present. I don't totally making that up, but, you know, I would avoid going into any highly unvaccinated place right now, like the plague. I would like the plague. More than metaphor. We'll avoid the plague, that's the best. More than metaphorically. Funny thing, this is a plague people don't avoid. Exactly, exactly. But people in Mississippi are waking up. I mean, 42% up is really, but you know, in our county, it voted 86% in Trump and it also is vaccinated at around 15%. 42% over a small number is still a small number. But at that growth rate, that would move someplace. Grace, did you want to jump in? You just had your hand up. I mean, I could talk about this issue of travel. I mean, I was just really aware. I was talking, a friend and I went, you know, we took like a vacation of a couple hours away. We didn't know by driving and, you know, staying in an Airbnb and all this. And I was really aware that this is new, right, in humanity's history. Like even the ability to just, oh, I'm gonna get on a plane and travel or I'm gonna travel frequently. I mean, when I was a kid, we went camping because it was too expensive to do any other way. And so like, it's so amazing how we feel like these things have become necessities and rights when actually it's the people who would travel from one country to another was a very, very, very small portion of humanity just a couple of generations ago. And really starting to look at, well, actually there's something very important about knowing your own, you know, your own community. And, you know, my religion has this, you know, on Saturdays you're not allowed to travel. And you can see how that creates cohesion. And so, you know, I'm really looking at that inside of my sense-making as well as this. Wait a second, like how many of these things that I feel like should be my rights are just actually like completely unnecessary bullshit? And, but I do think about those same things, like, you know, never seeing my family again is on the table because I don't feel comfortable flying. And I don't know if I'll ever feel comfortable flying again. For many reasons, environmental reasons as well as pandemic reasons that, you know, I don't think this is going away. The pandemic's not going away. So I think space tourism is off your plate as well. I love air so very, very much. I will not go anywhere that they do not have air. And I cannot imagine why anybody would. Air is pretty good. We like air. We like air a lot. In fact, sometimes we have too much air. Oh, sorry. I've got plenty of hot air over here anyway. That's my two cents about the travel and the, you know, like how much our privileges have become rights. It's almost, wow, yeah. Thanks, Grace. Ken, and then Mark. Speaking of air, this is, I couldn't think when you asked if we, who's on the call yesterday wanted to speak, but Pete's wife Joanna, who's very knowledgeable about the Delta variant, brought up the fact that something that is missing out of almost every single conversation about the pandemic is air purification. That, you know, given that it is a respiratory illness that is spread through droplets and aerosols, we should be installing high quality air filtration everywhere, you know, in classrooms, in markets, in offices, they did it on airplanes, but you know, it would really help to cut things down. And I was just reading, you know, Washington Post had this big long article of what you need to do to take care of yourself. And they didn't once mention air filtration. So, you know, we have a very great opportunity here for a technical fix that would not solve things, but would certainly lower the temperature quite a bit. Exactly. Thanks, Ken. Mark Krause. Well, good morning. I am in Lacey, Washington, 500 miles from home on a two week road trip in a convertible sob, which oddly enough, the air conditioning works. Multiple options here. I am immune compromised. I do have a reaction to the vaccine, but nobody knows what those numbers mean. On my way to Fort Townsend, where my cousin, Michelle, is the mayor. And we have cousins who have multiple myeloma. And boy, it's kind of a tricky thing, kind of, you know, this cousin with multiple myeloma on all those timers. But the last time I might be able to come up and see him. So it's hit flying in from the family reunion that we were all excited about before the second wave. And now we are in a state of confusion. I'm trying to communicate with people I've known in my life and nobody knows what to do. Thanks, Mark. I'm hoping it all turns out gracefully. Thanks. Stacy. Yeah. So ironically, I just got a call from my daughter. She's a 28 and she was totally opposed to the vaccine. There was nothing that I could do to, I didn't, you know, I had to be careful because, you know, you're dealing with somebody very, very headstrong. But, and I was going to say that it's very strange because where I am, it's a very vaccinated area. And I'm listening to everybody here that has really reasonable fears, but I'm also so aware that there's a pocket of people that I went to high school with, they don't even believe it's real. I mean, they're mocking me. They're laughing at me. So her calling, I just want to share what made her get it is she started seeing somebody that won't see her unless she got it. So she got it. That's the answer. We should create a dating service for people who are vaccine exclusive. So I just wanted to share that because it was strange that she would call now. And she was sick as a dog over, she had a bad reaction. Thanks, Stacy. Sense making anyone? I'd like to go back to Gil's question. Dave did you want to- I put something in the mother most about sense making. Yeah, thank you, music video. Well, no, yeah, it's the whole text. The music video belongs to it. So what it's about. And I didn't scroll up yet. Go ahead. Do you want to say a little bit? Yeah, maybe. For me, I understand that the body and the experience is a very deep intelligence. And the way we use words often doesn't really reach what we understand from our experience. And I mean, understanding this more and more, I've talked about Eugene Jenlin before, where they try to gradually find words for the implicit or the felt sense or whatever. And in this kind of sense making ideology, you could, it's good that you try to make sense, but there's plenty of it also that about staying true to your experience, regardless of how much sense you make of something. Because a lot of times when people try to make sense, there's kind of a mental tension on something. And I can feel this is not really what I feel is true. But people tend to agree on stuff because it kind of makes sense, but then it makes sense here, but it doesn't make sense here or something. And like the way our somatic work or whole being or internal system, there's much more that you can't make sense of than is being acknowledged currently. I think that's my attempt on trying to convey what I tried to convey in that post as well. I don't know if this makes sense. I know. Thanks, Eric. Anybody else sense making? What Eric is saying about music is really important. It's possible that given the state of the world, it's only gonna be song and music that's gonna cut through to create enough leverage to actually change things. So examples of this from history are basically freedom songs from the civil rights era or like I'm not sure music does change that much, does it? No, but it does. Whenever you see like one of the greatest speech in the world, is it just about the words or is it also about the musicality? For instance, and how it enters or become an understanding. And also I'm not talking about music as if that's the answer. I'm talking about music as an example to explain what actually happens in language and how we actually don't understand really, most of the time, we don't really get it. And how the experience itself is a much richer body than our thinking minds in our current Western philosophically, logically, scientifically oriented minds. It's still a lot of training because it's not just only the body. It's like the Eastern approach then is, yeah, it's just a body listen to the body but then they forget about thinking. No, it's both together and how that works is a whole thing by itself. And a very nice definition of art. I mean, a very nice way of thinking about art for me is that it's a form of sense-making of the world. Another way of thinking about art that I like a lot is that it's a gateway to the other space, the other dimensions that art, really good artists are sort of curators of those gateways to that other set of realities that are around us that are not tangible, not measurable, need to be expressed, need to find some feeling, some expression in the world. And so for me art is definitely a form of sense-making. Dave, did you wanna jump in and then Hari? Yeah, and I had some of the same reaction, Gil. And last year, and maybe this is particularly in the context of OGM and stuff, I had the experience last year with the Global Regeneration Co-Lab where a number of folks got together to do a kind of review of the year sense-making process where we had four or five sessions where we kind of discussed what had been impactful, what did people remember, what did they felt through the process of engaging with the GRC and kind of what was important and what they wanted to do going forward. And then they actually drafted a document that kind of were the results of that conversation. And the results were much more, they were different than I would have expected the GRC to be when I got started. They were much more, I kind of expect things to be kind of technocratic and how do you fix agriculture and what class is doing with the food systems and things like that. The results from the analysis were much more around healing of trauma, internal regeneration, much more personal kinds of things. And I felt like the process makes, by looking back at the GRC activity, there was a sense that was made out of the process that I didn't understand from before. So it was, in some sense, I translated it to looking to see what people do instead of asking what they think. It was like, we could look at what we were doing, you could see what people were actually in conversation about. And then that was where the sense came from. So I don't know if that's exactly what's ever meant by it in other contexts, but that's the meaning I took from this one experience. And the group, having the group get together and have these in this format enabled this sense to emerge in a way that many other formats wouldn't. I love that, Dave, thank you. And you made me think of the difference between mental common sense and sense-making of the senses and sensory and extrasensory things. And those are very different realms for me. And I think sense-making, it's really easy to think of sense-making as just being the logical side. Like, hey, sense-making would be finished if we had the perfect visualization of the irrefutable argument that would be sense-making. And actually that wouldn't necessarily move things forward in a group, for example. Yeah, and it gives a name to one of my concerns there is that, and I don't know this well enough, my intuition is that that's what a lot of people mean by it. Not what Dave said or what you just said, but that. And that concerns me if that's the case. Why does it concern you? Because the world is much too unsettled to wind up with a perfect visualization of, you know. Oh yeah. And all that stuff, so. Right. I guess my concern is about it turning into something that's too facile, trendy and facile. But anyway, like I said, this is a sense about sense-making and my lack of sense about what it means. So it's informed. Well, we all know the world is run by mice and the answer is 42. So there is some simplicity behind the whole thing. That's true, I forgot. Yeah, Harry then Ken. Yeah, hi, so. So first of all, it's nice to be back on these calls and, you know, I'm coming back after a long time. So if I'm jumping in with my sense of sense-making and it's not making sense, you know, kind of excuse. Excellent. So one thing which, I guess a couple of things which sort of have been confronting me for maybe like a couple of years now is one of them is what was just brought up, which is the non-analytical, non-reductive, non-odificial need and close form kind of conclusions we can draw from, you know, the environments which we navigate. And one of the things which I've been doing to try and process the world a little differently is to, you know, write down my dreams every morning and try and see if I can see patterns in them so on and so forth. I believe it's, you know, like it's, people throughout the ages have recorded their dreams including, you know, some of the prophets in the Bible and so on and so forth. But really once I started doing that, I realized like how little of, you know, like my experience actually captured through the conscious experience. And there's so much which is happening, you know, under the hood of it. And the other part which I'm still thinking about and does it connect to this in some ways, you know, if we made machines which could sense, right? So what is the equivalent of that kind of, you know, intuitive, non-reductive sensing for them? Is it like the inner layers of the neural networks? Is it, you know, the transfer learnings which happen and so on and so forth? So those are the questions I'm wondering about. And I mean, obviously coming from an Indian culture, I also, since I practice your land meditation, I look at things from the inside out because of the way the classes are structured. And, you know, it's just the never ending puzzle, I guess. Thank you. Oh, thank you, Hari. Really appreciate that. And also like April, my wife took a yoga teacher training a couple of years ago at which this particular kind of training went deep into the yamas and the niyamas from sort of the background of yoga and all that. And man, that's a sense-making framework about non-attachment, about self-care, about a whole bunch of different things. It really like, really there's a philosophical foundation that is all about how to be in the world and hopefully improve the world. So it's been there for a couple of thousand years. There's also, since you mentioned it, it's quite interesting because there is a sense-making framework sort of, if I could just... We just lost your audience. We just mentioned built into yoga thinking. I mean... Hari, can you start over again? Your audio is cutting out on us. We'd love to hear what you're saying. I was wondering, I'll pass. Yeah, sorry. No, I was just saying, if you read the yoga, the sutras which were recorded about 2,000 years ago by Patanjali, there is actually an integrated sense-making system which is called Samyama, which means integration. It's a combination of withdrawal of the senses and focusing and finally integration. So I translated it just to mean slow, but there has been some attempt based on psychology and based on the approach of detachment and focusing on the consciousness, focusing on the breath. There is a sense-making apparatus and an epistemology in Eastern thought, which is pretty interesting to explore because it addresses the... I mean, anybody in the Greek school of thought is used to the... It's kind of like a logical reductive or an observed kind of thing, but it's a different kind of motor, different kind of gear and I think both are super important because we need the mathematics, but we also need the Kurt Gadel, who went outside mathematics to sense-made, sense-made, like to find that... So I'm just saying that these are tools and we should make the best use of them. I've talked a lot. Thank you. Oh, thank you. Love what you're saying. Ken, then Mark Karanza. So, I think this is a fantastic question. Thanks for raising it. I look at sense-making as a territory rather than a category and with any territory, you can have multiple maps. You can map the tick any landscape. You can look at the water flows and the topography and the population and vegetation. And so I think we need to start to have some maps like this for sense-making of... There's certainly the internal, there's what do I make sense of in my own world? How to make sense of my body? Simone Biles just got a lot of shit for withdrawing from some competitions. I was reading about this and she had lost her sense of proprioception, which is incredibly important when you're spinning in the air and there's all this rotation going on. She gets severely into herself and she took care of herself. So I'm reading this book or I'm listening to this book right now called The Expanded Mind, Thinking Beyond the Brain by Annie Murphy-Paul and I really like it. I don't care for her voice, she's narrating it, but I really like what she has to say. She opens the book by talking about traders, really high performing traders. And you can take someone who has a really high honors degree from one of the best universities and has all these advanced math courses and they can't trade for shit. And you take somebody who's a mediocre student who came out of a state school and they're making trade after trade that's just making money. It turns out it has to do with introception. These folks know when they're heartbeats and they can sense whether a trade is good or not. It's way below the threshold surface of thinking consciousness. There's a lot of study that's gone behind this to discover that like they did an experiment giving people four decks of cards and you find out as you play them that the first two decks are loaded with bad cards and they cost you money and the second and third and fourth deck are great. But it took the people like 40 or 50 plays before they could actually figure that out although they had wired up their bodies and their bodies knew it within 10 plays. So there's a huge amount of intelligence in our body that we ignore at our peril. And that can also couple with our environment. We walk into a room, sorry, what? What's the name of that book? I put it in the Matterwells chat. In the Matterwells chat. Yeah. So there's lots of ways that we can connect to our environments that we're usually not aware of. You walk into a room and you instantly know, oh, I wanna go talk to that person. They just feel right. Where you walk in and go, oh, man, there's something going on here that I'm not sure of. I gotta be really careful. These are not things where we've scanned the room and gone through a big analysis. It's like an instantaneous knowledge because our bodies have co-evolved with our environments and with fellow people and there's a huge amount of intelligence there that gets ignored in our sense-making, which leads us to make nonsense out of things that should make sense. And so I just wanted to advocate for as Pete and others engage in this emergent sense-making process that we start to map these different domains of where are you feeling the poles? What is this to you? And collectively, how do we reconcile people have really different views on things? A lot of people are disconnected from their bodies which give them really scary perspectives. Saban Fusame was talking about bringing these women from Germany to Africa and they just kept talking and talking. They were totally disconnected. They took them down to the river, had them lay down, coated them in mud and just said be quiet. And they went through an enormous change in consciousness simply from laying on the ground being covered in mud next to the river. They started to hear things that they had not heard before. So being able to quiet the chatter of the mind is also really important, which gets to Hari's point about yoga and meditation and quieting our senses down so that we can actually hear the signal through the noise. Anyway, I'll stop. Thank you. Thank you. That's beautiful, Ken. And it suggests to me that there's an interesting difference between maybe sense-making and sensing. And the term sense-making itself suggests to me, and I don't know if this is the common uses, but it suggests to me some kind of mental intellectual thought-based process and sensing is body-based. And maybe what this is about, but maybe what we are all hungry for in this game of sense-making is how to orient in the world. And how to be in a world that's changing and that doesn't quote make sense in the traditional historical ways that we have been acclimated to. And so I guess, you know, so I think you're coming close to what my concern is that if we think that if sense-making is about figuring shit out, it feels limited and maybe dangerous to me. If it's about how to sense with the whole being in a changing or disorienting world, that feels much richer and more open to possibility. So thank you very much for that. Let me add a brief comment, then go to Mark Caronza, Kevin and Eric. And my brief comment is that my own perception is that we are trying to make sense of the world through the modernist lens, that we have mostly been raised in the modernist point of view, which means science and rationality and logic and whatever, which dismisses and discounts the other, you know, Ken just mentioned Saban Fusome, her ex-husband, Maladoma, gets a Western training and goes back into his tribe and the Tagara tribe in West Africa and realizes a lot of things that are super interesting to understand. Tyson Yonka Porta in Sand Talk is trying to communicate in really interesting ways, a book totally worth reading, how to see differently outside of the modernist lens. And I think that in many of our conversations, we are so rational that the idea of a perfectly rational argument, which is a useful object as solving any kind of problem is probably unrealistic in the broader world, which I think is where this conversation is kind of swirling around. So, and then we've got Doug added to this queue as well. So Mark Caronza. This is Rick Stoff. Gil, thank you for that question. I'm really about making a 1996 and still haven't figured out what it is. How have you inspired me to kind of talk in and kind of a question I've been asking myself and it feels like the wrong question, the question doesn't make sense. And Mark, your voice is cutting in and out. I think that your audio may still be attached to your earphones, because it sounds like you're farther away than your laptop right now, but keep going, sorry about that. It's, I'm having problems with that, but you know, I'm trying to ask a question I don't know how to answer it. What is the opposite of prayer? Oh. And my work is about kind of getting the language out in the brain, out of the brain. It's typing all the stuff in so that I can deal with non-linguistic states of mind. To kind of say, okay, done with language. I've given attention to the monkey mind. You're trying to get beyond language by capturing all these words. That's fascinating. Yeah, it seems to work for me, but I don't know how to be a preacher. I don't know how to be a leader of... What's the opposite of preaching? Listening. No, listening really. Anyway, there's the other side of it where basically we live in an environment of meaning. Somehow life evolved from matter. Later, or maybe at the same time, meaning evolved from matter. And there's a kind of meaning that we call symbols. If we look at Charles Sanders Purse's emergent semiotics of icon, which needs to refer to another icon for indexical reference and a multiple of indexes to some public reference where we can disconnect from the world and say cat. And the cat doesn't exist. But we can all kind of know what a cat is. And we have language. And this is language that's been infected in us by our hands. And the rest of the world outside of us. But Michael Pogliani in his books about personal knowing makes this point that all knowledge to be known has to go through the mind of a single knower. And there's this real paradox of single and mass community kind of thing that I see at the essence of a symbolic nature of sense-making. Certainly there is, for example, a book, How Forests Think, which talks about the Ecuadorian Amazon folks who engage in the forest in a nonsymbolic way, but in this kind of iconic and indexical layer of meaning, how things are recognized and how they refer to each other. And this, you know, all three languages, beautiful. I love this ability to listen to people all over the world. I'll just bring those up. Yeah, thank you. Eric, Doug, Mark, Tipo. Yeah, I'm sorry, next. So for me, there's another part in this idea that it's the body that's also not really correct if I have understood. It's like if you imagine something in your brain, you have an imagination, which is a picture of visual. It can happen constantly. It can also happen that it happens to you. Like all of a sudden you've got this image coming up for you. Those are different ways of thinking, which is not just the body. It's an imagination. So there's plenty of thinking, which is non-verbal thinking, which is not just the body. So that's another mistake, I think, is that it's like a dichotomy between the thinking mind and the body, which I don't think it is. There's plenty of other thinking ways that are non-verbal that we don't learn to name. So they don't really exist, but they exist all the time because they leave us all the time. So that's one part I wanted to name and a second completely different part of it is in what we are doing in the OGM and all the kind of like people sometimes get impatient with OGM or other groups on how it's not moving forward and how we're not really doing stuff or something or we're not putting this into the world. There is something on, there's a very difficult tension field between trying to figure it out, trying to make sense, trying to all this information and putting in it and then a mind that wants to focus and move forward. It's a weird one because once you start focusing, you try to pin it down. Why do we focus? You try to name goals, deliverables, really concrete stuff. And then there's this mind that's like, yeah, and I'm seeing all this other and this tension field that I'm also interested in, like how do we really focus, move forward, do stuff, become effective, save lives, prevent, I don't know, genocide, wars, global warming, all these kinds of stuff. And at the same time, stay open and sensitive and caring and supportive. So that's another part for me. Despite all the bad news, I'd just like to take us into silence for a little moment so we can just ponder what Eric just put into the conversation as we reflect on the gentle nature sounds of tapping on a keyboard. Doug, then Mark Tipo. Okay, I think that make sense making really comes from the conventional sentence, does it make sense? Which means does our thought map back into reality? Does our thought go through the senses back to the world? And that's what does it make sense means and it's what it means to me. And I think it's kind of implicit in the discussion. I'm gonna turn this into my check-in too. So two quick thoughts on my mind. One is I've been very taken up this last couple of weeks with the issue of China. And we project all over China and don't stop to think whether we could do better at sense making of getting our mental maps about China to fit reality. The problem right now is we're marching very quickly towards nuclear war with China. Where's our peace movement? I don't see it. We're in trouble and it's not being called out. The last thing that's on my mind is with regards to climate change, I think the reality is that everybody's trying to get from where we are to better and we're probably gonna have to go through some breakdowns and worse before we can possibly get to better. And we're not talking about what to do with that breakdown, how to take care of people who lose their homes or their food or their incomes. In a conversation last night, we really got to the phrase, each one save one is gonna be important. That's it. I think that there are some movements like deep adaptation, Jim Bandel's movement that are trying to work on some pieces of what you're talking about, but not enough and not widespread enough. But there's some people who are saying, we've screwed this thing way further than we think we have. We need to take drastic measures for helping those people who are affected for figuring out how to sort of weigh through the rest of this time. Mark Tebow then Grace. Don't be shocked I shaved. Oh my God. What happened? You've turned into I am Pay. Monks, you know. They have wished me. They said that that was not enough so. Love it. You did as well. Thank you. Excellent. Or Seth Godin maybe, like someone between I am Pay and Seth Godin. And go back, at least there. How wow, so many good thoughts and topics we've touched on. Yes, how far as things is a wonderful book. I often, you know, in the spaces that I'm navigating and being involved in, around the Amazon I always remind people how indigenous people identify, self-identify and they self-identify, you know, their health is, dependent on the health of the forest. So they self-identify with the forest. So a tree is more than just a piece of wood. Also when I entered, you know, a lot of conversation I like to remind people that words are, and I'm being very generous when I say that, words are about 50% of what we are. They're very difficult to, most languages are incomplete and imperfect. One of the things that I remember what we were talking is, the test of Sun Tzu's art of war on concubines. And I don't know if you guys are familiar with that. And so the king asked, Sun Tzu almost a challenge can, you know, is out of war be applied to women. And he said, yes, of course. So 180, 180 of the king's concubines are asked to perform army drills. And he puts two of the favorites, King's concubines as general. And he says, you know, if the orders are clear, but I'm not applied correctly, then it's the fault of the soldiers. And if the words are unclear, then it is a fault of the general. And of course the concubines, being concubines, they love the Google, the Google. And at the end, he be heads, he orders to be heads, two of the favorites, concubines. That's when the king intervenes and says, no, we find with the example, we would like to save the two concubines. But Sun Tzu, Goyes and be heads, the two concubines and repeat the drills. And this time, the concubines obeyed very well. But the king still wants to stop the drill. And Sun Tzu's conclusion is, the king is only formed of words and cannot translate them into deeds. And that's, I think, is happening around a lot of the issues that we're facing. Thank you. We have way too many, you know, we talk about the vaccines all the time and I'm always surprised that we don't speak of the context in which vaccines are made and administered to the population and the place of the government in them. And really questioning that as well in the sense making, what is the role of government? Really, at this point in time, is there, do they even have any legitimacy into telling us what to do? That has been lost a little bit in conversations. And I think that we always tend to point to people who are unvaccinated. I want to remind, you know, everyone here that for a while, both our president, current president and vice president, sounded like an anti-vaxxers for a while, but nobody said anything. And today they point to the other side, the Republicans being anti-vaxxers. It's like, okay, who, why are we going with that? Again, I think that the more we're looking at these, the more they're losing legitimacy. And I'm good with that. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. Grace and Michael. So I think there's a couple of things I want to address inside of the sense making. One is sense making for what? And I want to kind of riff off of what Mark just said before I kind of go back to sense making in general, but for what? And when we talk about the vaccines is really interesting because it's like, am I trying to sense make on what's best for me or what's best for my family or what's best for my whole society? Because the answer to that is very different. And so vaccines have been kind of presented to us as something like, you know, you've got to send your kid to war. And we know that it's a little dangerous, right? These vaccines, they're new, it's a new technology. We know that there's some risks involved, but you know, it's the best thing for society. And that's how it's been introduced to us. And that's a very different decision than you as an individual should get them. And now when we're talking about vaccinating children, certainly it's really not for the children, it's for all of society. But I think we're at a point, you know, eight months later since the vaccines have been released where we can see that we're not going to reach mass immunity. We're not going through vaccines alone. It's just not going to happen. And so then the question is, okay, now are we back to personal choice? And I'm asking myself that too. Like, why do I keep trying to make sense of this situation, right? And part of it is, okay, now they're talking about a third booster, right? And so that's, you know, I have to make, right? So we're making sense, is it personal or is it for all of society? And I find it difficult to believe at this point that there is a case for herd immunity at all, especially with the reinfection rates, the rest of the world, most of the world isn't anywhere near 60% vaccinated. Canada's probably the exception. So if you're not Canadian, I don't think there's a case that vaccinations are going to reach herd immunity. And so then it's why, and again, you could have disagreed with me, but I'm just saying, you know, the question is, am I trying to decide, you know, for myself, for my family, for my friends, for my children? And obviously I'm very concerned about my children. Should they get that extra booster? Should they get another vaccine? Or should I vaccinate myself? Is that a health decision for myself or is it a community decision? And I think that's true of all sense-making, right? You can't make sense-making unless you've got that, why am I making sense-making? And then the other thing I want to say about vaccines, which comes into the sense-making, and I think it's really important for us to look at this, is if you look at historically, just sense-making around disease and sense-making around totalitarianism and fascist activities and disease, there's a reason it's called ethnic cleansing. And it always starts with those ones are the ones who are contaminating us. And in the current debate, you're seeing both sides. You're seeing people saying the unvaccinated are the ones who are contaminating us and we need to not let them into our restaurants. And then you're seeing people on the other side saying, the vaccinated are the ones who are creating more variance because of the natural selection. Because it's a big serial passage test where you're exposing the virus to a particular thing over and over again, and it's evolving, right? And so you've got both sides, claiming the other side is the diseased people we need to ban from our whatever, our restaurants, our events, our society, our weddings or whatever. And you've got literally brother against brother now. And so you're really getting close to Stalinism. And you have to be really aware of how you're speaking about the other side inside of what are you about to do when you say those ones can't come to my whatever and it's right to ban them. And one of my concerns, for example, is I look at here in Europe and Europe is somewhere around 50% and you can get a vaccine if you want, okay? And that's where we're gonna be. People are gonna not vaccinate more than 50, 60% here. It's just not gonna happen. And when you look at what's happening in France and you're not gonna be able to go to restaurants, there's things that I feel really like totally fine about like restaurants and theaters, but then you start to think about public transportation. And now you're putting something on the lower income people, right? The people who can't afford a car. How would I expect this if you don't wanna know how I'm gonna suggest to handle this better? I think that, again, inside of we don't trust the authorities I think the only way to do it is to allow people to make their own decisions and to allow open debate and stop the censorship and not shame anybody, right? Like not shame anybody and not say, I can't believe so and so won't vaccinate themselves and I can't convince them is like that's shaming. And the same on the other side, I can't convince them that it's horrible that they got a vaccination. Both of those are kinds of shaming. We just have to cut it out and treat each other as adults especially our own families. I mean, it's just we gotta cut it out and let people make their own decisions and stop allowing the government to make those decisions for us. And any proprietor who doesn't want people of this ilk or that ilk on his premises, that's fine. And anybody who doesn't wanna date persons of this ilk or that ilk, that's fine. Let's stop allowing ourselves to be mandated by our governments. That's more dangerous. That's not gonna end well. And that's what I think should be done. I mean, again, that's what I think should be done. I wanna go back to sense making. Sense making, this question of like who's doing sense making and whether it's about our senses. There's a very good course. I wouldn't say an amazing course, but a very good course by Rebel Wisdom called Sense Making 101. And it's, I think it's six or eight sessions. And more than half of that is learning to feel your own senses and understand your own biases. And so that's really interesting. So like I noticed, I started noticing, for example, the people that I like to listen to about this, they tend to be non-conventional. They tend to go into much more detail about the studies that they're looking at and talk about the biology. And I'm like, oh, my parents are biologists. That's why I like to talk, to listen to my fathers or virologists. I understand what they're saying. And I don't wanna hear any general stuff. I want them to go into details and I want them to explain the biology underneath it. And that's my personal bias. And so that's really interesting, right? Like if I didn't know, oh, these people sound like my parents, I wouldn't know that I'm making sense through a lens of who do I trust? And I think you know the answer, Stacey, I think we should let the government leave us alone. The government is not making good decisions for us. I don't feel, so like if you wanted to ask like, how do I feel about masking or not masking? I don't think I'm more qualified than the government and I'm not more qualified than a doctor. No, but my question is which government? Because it's the local, it's the state governments that are making the mandates against masking in schools. Yeah, well, I think they should listen to the people. Why don't we listen to the people? Maybe get a vote on it or a referendum on it. Let's do what a democracy would do. I don't think the government should be doing that. So should proprietors- Because they're incompetent. So should proprietors be able to say no black people in this establishment? That's a different story. That's not- Why is that, how is that different? Where is the difference? I think that's not a health, that's not a health issue, right? Right now we have to say, I want to, as the provider, I want to protect my health. I'm immunocompromised and I don't want people who might have infectious disease coming into, I'll let them eat on the sidewalks or whatever it is, right? I think it's a personal health issue. You're not going to get the, you're not going to turn black if a black person breathes in your restaurant. Back to what you were saying before of the other as the contagion. If you, if you the provider think that black people are carriers of disease, you're going to ban black people. Is that okay? Look, you're saying what's the difference between having common sense and not having common sense, okay? It's a contagious disease. Common disease. Let's not pretend that COVID isn't a contagious disease. It's a contagious disease. A lot of people say it isn't. Let's, you know, I think we have to have some guidelines. Yeah. I think we have to have some guidelines. Like what is a disease and what isn't a disease? So Grace, I want to thank you for putting this in front of us in a kind of gentle way. And I'm not trying to end the conversation on this. I just like, I think you're provoking a lot of us to think through the issues that we've made assumptions about and things like that, which is really useful and is a great form of sense making. And I think we're all completely unqualified today. I mean, if you think you know what's going on right now, you are truly lost. Let's go to Michael and Marky Bo. I'm on a different note, but related to sense making. And actually interested in kind of tying together the notion, the conversation that we had at the beginning of this call about growing out of Ken's work and talking about sensitivities in the workplace there are, I think there's an intersection here between those kind of instinctual reactions that we have that we're talking about in terms of the bodily reaction sensing of things and the learned linguistic figuring out of things. And I'm just wondering if there's less of a hard line between those learned linguistic figured out things and the instinctual sensory bodily unthinking ones. Because when we think about the things that make an individual recoil versus making them feel relief, it might be a completely born in a response, but it also has to do with learned expertise, experience, nurture. And I'm thinking about how as a designer, for instance, my conscious knowledge feeds unconscious reactions. I might have a bodily reaction to the difference between comfortable and uncomfortable letter spacing or color choice and a musician can react to an off note or that a non-musician might notice and the musician is reacting before any intellectual perception. And then, in the kind of DEI context, and I'm using DEI as shorthand understanding that that's not necessarily the greatest term, but that there are visceral reactions of, comfort and discomfort that somebody has because of their identity that, again, can be innate or learned and to know, to be able to harness the reaction that someone different than you has to the use of the word articulate in a context without a figured out and written response is likewise really, really valuable. And I guess this all boils down to for me that in collaborative sense making, content output, the things that we are making sense of, the kernels that we are making sense of, we wanna attach annotation that is figured out, but to me, like sort of, I don't know how to, what to call it, but another important thing to figure out ways to capture are those call them instinctual, call them bodily, the reactions that people have to a set of words, a piece of information, an image, and then couple those with the identifications of that person, this person is a musician, this person is a woman, this person is of this age, this person is from this region, this person has this kind of income. And I mean, this is an incredibly tall order, technologically, but I feel like we could make so much better sense of pieces of information if we could see, oh, wow, this image produces this kind of recoil in this population. Anyway, it's a bit of a speech, but I want to share that notion. Thank you, Michael. Mark Tebow? Yeah, there's something that we don't speak a lot about in the conversations we're having is that, and you pointed to it, Michael. Thank you about discomfort and how we deal with that. And we tend to be so looking for our peace of mind. It just happened with the election and was so clear, just like as if suddenly everything would be great again. And it's not. So what, and again, you know, going back to that role of the government is a power we're giving the government. And I agree, hopefully with Grace, one day mask is useless, the next everybody should wear a mask. And it went on and on and on and on like this. So at the end of the day, I'm always wondering how can we reintroduce the fact that we live in a world that is unpredictable. And yes, we have to deal with discomfort, with risks. In the Amazon, it's always present. You can be beaten by a snake. There's plenty of things, the visible and the invisible that always makes you face these different realities that can end your life. So they often say that they work with death every single day. And we tend to forget that in our modern societies. Oh, can I end with a joke from the Amazon? Oh, of course. Okay. Does it start with like an indigenous person, or an old person and the priests walk into a bar? No, not that one. I'm glad. Okay. So the Amazonian Indians say, when the white man thinks, the Indian poops. Like, thank you. You reminded me of this conversation, part of what Grace put on the table about what is the role of government and all that has me spinning on a bunch of different things which included the Cobra effect. So the British Raj shows up in India, does a bunch of shitty things, takes over the most of the continent. And then there's a Cobra problem out there. So they put a bounty on Cobras. It's like, hey, if you bring us a Cobra, we will pay you money. And very quickly, people start raising Cobras. They start breeding Cobras because they're worth a pound or a shilling or something. It's like, public policy is really hard. And then I'm thinking about smoking and car safety. And smoking in particular, because smoking, there's secondhand smoke, I can no longer stand going into an environment that has smoke. Like it really offends me, I leave. And if we left smoking to the, we know 20% of the population still actually smokes. And if we left smoking to everybody's personal choice, our environment would be shaped really, really differently. And I don't know how to handle that. And then there's issues like slavery and a bunch of other things where you kind of have to make proclamations, but we sort of went through that part of the conversation. But I'm busy spinning on how, what is the role of government? What kind of government do we want? And I have a whole riff on how we've designed institutions that don't trust the average human. But like the basis of my standing philosophy at this moment is that I think we should switch to design from trust. And I own the site designfromtrust.com. And I'd love to stand that up as a thing, because when you start with, assuming that most people have good intent, you build completely different systems, although the systems and the norms all that are incredibly important for governing behavior. And you get better outcomes and you re-weave the context of community and society because mostly design from trust relies on humans making eye contact and getting, figuring each other out and trusting one another in the different settings where this matters. So Grace, I'm like incredibly aligned with that part of what you're saying, like incredibly so. And then I come back to like car safety. Somebody, my mom hated seat belts, and to her last ride in a car would take a shoulder belt and put it behind her every time because she was here. And I'm like, well, okay. But we, and I used to own a 1962 Sunbeam Alpine that had seat belts, but only because somebody installed old GM seat belts in it afterward, it didn't come with seat belts. And lots of humans stopped dying in cars when we started doing car safety things. But that had to be done at some greater national level. And then helmet laws for motorcyclists, for example, I think partly it's to protect motorcyclists. Partly I don't want to have killed somebody because they rolled under my car and weren't wearing a helmet, right? I don't want the injury rate to go up because they were unsafe somehow. So all of these things are all about public policy and I am an amateur in public policy, but we're trying to sort of sort our way through this. Stacey, and then I apologize, we've gotten really close to the end of our 90 minutes and we've barely made a dent actually in the Q, the check-in queue, but I love the conversation we've had. And so I want to apologize for people who wanted to check in. I've kind of let go of the spreadsheet that we created earlier for people who really wanted to check in. And I didn't start this call by saying, hey, if you really want to check in, ping me or do something out of band or just say so. So let me maybe do more of that in the next call. And with that, I'll go to Stacey and then we'll start winding down the call. Yeah, I'll be really quick. I just want to say that of the many people that I've spoken to that are against the vaccinations, I think it's important to know that there are two groups. So there's people that have reasonable questions about vaccinations, but they fully know that COVID is real. And then there are people that don't believe it's real. They will cough in your face to show you what kind of a fool you are. And I don't think we should be lumping those two groups together, but we have to be aware that that other group is there. Indeed. Anyone with some thoughts about this call and about where we are right now, just sort of concluding thoughts for this call, something to take us out on? I think some of the salient points that we brought up are these, there's like I would say three things. One is our emotional, like our physical and emotional states as part of our sense-making mechanisms and that that's part of it. And especially when we're facing existential risk. And I think we live in a generation that never had to deal with that. Like, oh my goodness, Plagan war used to be part of everybody's life every day. It was like no big deal. And I think we need to really look at that. And I guess the second thing I think was really important around this sense-making is the context. When I'm trying to make sense of something, it's in the context of maybe taking an action or not taking an action. And there's also, there's a space in the world for sense-making mechanisms like this one. And there's a space in the world for action-making mechanisms. And that's also part of sense-making of humanity. And I think those are, and knowing where our rules are and what we're drawn to and thinking about the context in which we're making sense-making. That's what I would say I'm taking away from this. Thank you, Grace. And thank you for hanging in there with our call. Yeah, my customers will not thank you. All my deadlines are a day behind. Anyone else? John? Yes, lots of really important thoughts. And I missed about the first half hour, but I got a lot out of what everyone said. And this is not so much, this is not in opposition to anything anybody said. It a little bit builds on Grace's idea of context. I was gonna talk about sense-making, the life cycle of sense-making and in the sense that we come into a situation and our first criteria for sense is there enough familiarity with something that I'm sensing to what I already know that I have a grip that I'm allowed to stay here or that I wanna stay here. And I might say, oh, this makes sense. Like I come into a party, I say, oh, this looks like it makes sense. A next question is, do the other people here want me to be making sense with them? So my first signal is for myself, this isn't familiar enough that I can navigate. Then am I getting any acceptance or rejection from other people? Then, okay, it's familiar, but what does it mean? And I start trying to learn from it. And at the tail end of the life cycle is I'm not making any new sense here. I've made some sense and it's not changing. So there's an innovation criteria that comes in. And also there's a competing context. This context seems to have slowed down and there might be another one over there that's still going. And so maybe it's time for me to leave this one and go try to make sense of that other one. It's just another layer of ecology with which to look at sense-making. And it sets up a new set of criteria. If you're trying to, if you see yourself as wanting to help other people make sense out of something, thinking about it in terms of that life cycle might be helpful. I think we have Ken and maybe Eric. I'm just gonna see if I could take us out with a poem. So if Eric wants to go first. Let's go Eric and Ken. That's a lovely idea, Ken. There's something about not agreeing to people and about honesty that didn't really... I would love us as a group to be honest to each other, but also from a really deep, deep sense. Like whenever there's something that fundamentally don't agree on or something that makes me impatient being here in the group, I would like it to be named. And then once someone is honest, I don't want it to take up all the space because it can be so uncomfortable that it can become a hijacker of the whole conversation. And so there's a balance there to be found. And I just wanted to name that part. Thank you, Eric. So... Over to you in the little rectangle, Ken. This is one of my favorite roca poems. It's called The Winged Energy of Delight. And I'm reciting it partially because he'll ask the question of how do we design from trust? And it's a poem about designing from trust. I think it's also a poem about midlife and transformation and change and kind of wraps all this stuff together. So just as the winged energy of delight carried you over many chasms early on, now raise high the daringly imagined arch holding up the astounding bridges. Miracle doesn't lie only in the amazing living through and defeat of danger. Miracle becomes miracle in the clear white of achievement that is earned in the world. To work with things is not hubris when building associations beyond words. For denser and denser the pattern becomes and being carried along is no longer enough. So take your well-developed strengths and stretch them between two opposing poles because inside the human heart is where God learns. May we all learn. Thank you, Ken. You'll post that to the chat? Sure. Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Awesome call. Love these conversations. Really appreciate it. Ciao. Ciao. Thanks, everybody. Bye.