 And welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. And I appreciate your interest in the show. This is the state of the state of Hawaii. We cover a multitude of topics from politics through budget and mayoral races and the COVID pandemic and including education and other agencies of the state. I'm your host, Stephanie Stoll Dalton. And today, we're going to be talking about Hawaii education as a function of the state and specifically talking to an expert on education research and how it makes teaching practice effective for all students. You know, Hawaii's diverse multilingual and multi minority student population is served by the state with our school system mostly distinguished as we hear for operating as a single school district. All other U.S. states support P-12 education mostly or even totally through counties and cities in addition to state funding and federal levels of funding too. Sadly, Hawaii's education system receives much less distinction for successful student outcomes even though one U.S. president was educated in Hawaii and attended public and private schools here. It is the case that by partnering and other contributions, Hawaii's education entities such as the Kamehameha Schools, the University of Hawaii Curriculum Research and Development Group, Hawaii Department of Education and others have supported program models and developed program models that improve classroom practices on and also their student outcomes and especially when research study and analysis provided more information and significant findings on teaching and learning. There is a consensus for foundational research that improved Hawaiian student school performance and that it has gone on to influence teaching across the nation and also internationally. Today's guest will talk about Hawaii's contribution of foundational education research and touch on what is research, what's educational research and how is it influential for diverse students in Hawaii and now the nation and also internationally. I'm pleased to introduce our guest today who is Dr. Hector Rivera, an associate professor from who is at the Texas A&M University at College Station in Texas. His teaching and research aims to improve education in communities and school districts with diverse student populations like Hawaii who are English language learners also, they are also high need and they are often from cultural minorities. In addition Hector has worked in Native America and internationally in Greenland, Guatemala, Mexico and Peru. So welcome Hector to think tech Hawaii. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Aloha. Thank you. I'll call you Hector as it's we've known each other for a while and have the pleasure of that history. So I really thank you for the participation today. So I wanted to get started to hear from you about these the important work that has been done is being done and will continue to be done better and better and how did you come to be an educational researcher? How did you get into this business? Yeah. Well for me the path to research when I met Dr. Roland Tark, the founder of CREED and through his mentorship and research, I was able to learn and develop the tools to really dive into educational research in a way that it was significant and important to me. I was very much interested in the research that had to do with communities and how do we support communities of learners. So that was kind of my interest. So he took on me and as one of his graduate students, so I'm very fortunate to say that I am a product of that process in now conducting research that is based on the research that began in Hawaii. So I'm very excited about actually being in this program and talking to you about these issues because I feel so connected with Hawaii, although I haven't been there that many times. But I think that that connection comes because of that, because of the research, because of the work we have done and also an understanding that the practices and research done there was a springboard and created a foundation for many of us who are now doing research not only in the United States but across the world. So it's exciting. Well that's very good to point that out and I like that you yes have been here and you've worked here some, you're not a comma aina, but you're showing us how what you're talking about is the way the research has gone on and that's been influenced by the work here in Hawaii that has been so compelling and driven so many people to think more about doing this kind of work. So what makes the research that you do informative and also I was going to ask you about the power of it too, but how does research get to be informative? I mean, most people may not know how anything but the grueling practice of the work that has to be done to set it up. So how does it get to be informative and powerful? And I think that's a very good question because it definitely research is informative because it definitely looks from a systematic perspective, right? It's no longer my opinion or the opinion of a few, but as a matter of fact, it's a systematic process of inquiry that we use to be able to gather data and be able to analyze that data. What makes it powerful is that I think it cuts across personal boundaries, personal beliefs, and it goes into the perspective of a community or a group of people, whoever you are doing research with or collaborating with. So that's very powerful. And to me, what's more powerful is that the application of the research because when you think about the applicability of the research and what the research can do in a community and how we can foster development in a direction that the community wants, whether it is in Zuni, whether it is in in Hawaii or whether it is in Greenland, for example. So it's very powerful to know and understand that research is also at least sociopultural research, from my perspective, is contextual. And that's why Dr. Tarik used to refer to it as that sociohistorical because it also accounts for those historical aspects that people many times and neglect or don't see or don't know about, which are important to the communities because to really understand where a group of people is standing right now in their development as a community, it takes that process, a process of really understanding the community, value in the community and understanding the circumstances through which they have both. Well, that is interesting. I think that you might be able to shed some light on the experiment of some of the work that was done here, this foundational research that Roland Tharp led and also Ron Gallimore, too, and supported a lot by the board of directors of Bishop State. But I also am interested to hear you talk about why did the leaders take the program and the findings of the research here with the Hawaiian part of Hawaiian youngsters in the classrooms of elementary school? And then they took those findings and replicated the program in the Navajo School, schools at Rough Rock in Arizona. So they went there to verify, validate, but also some other things happened. So is that an example of the kind of thing you're talking about, that the value of it, there's your universal value, but that specific. So one, can you talk a little about how that works? I think that the universal value is because we all share a lot of commonalities as human beings. And in those commonalities, help us really understand that, you know, there is something that we learned from a particular community that may be applicable to other communities as well. But we also know from a contextual perspective that each community has its own processes and values and beliefs as well that are very specific to that community. And therefore, we need to be thinking about that. So the power of research like this and to be able to replicate it in all the contexts is to is an understanding that historically, for example, in the case of my work, that native communities were struggling in similar ways because of subjugation, because of colonization, because of many other issues that they came across. And so it is important for us to keep that in perspective and then to provide them with other news. For example, a key aspect of the research has been the importance of language and how language is intricately, you know, interwoven into the culture of the individual. So in other words, as in Zuni, they used to tell us, if we lose our language, we lose our culture. Because how can we practice our culture? How can we practice our religious, you know, ceremonies if our kids don't know the Zuni language, for example? So to us, that was very important. And the same thing seems to repeat in other countries, you know, when you go to Greenland or when you go to, you know, Peru and work with, you know, people up in the Andes, then you realize that there are there are a lot of different aspects that are similar across communities. I think that that that's really helpful. And it informed and it informed the the practice because understanding that we all have a lot in common, no matter whether we're in New York or Greenland or whatever we are, Native American or whatever, whatever we might be. But all humans share these commonalities. But we and we need to work for those comments, like all humans learn language that have language and all humans when educated need to learn more language and academic language and etc. But there are some other things to consider about the different students of the different communities of the students that we work with it. And we need to learn what some of those really important differences are. So that this general acceptance that language has high priority, then what would be an example of these more specific preferences that that students that a community might have for the education of its students? What what would be some examples of that? I mean, specifics could be their rituals and their components that are very much tied to the community. And sometimes we as educators fail to see the importance of that for the community itself and for the kids, because it's not only an issue of how do you build capacity in a community, but also an issue of how do you connect social emotionally with the children? And so in order for us to look for that social emotional component, which is something that nowadays educators talk about, it's really important for us then to connect to their culture and to connect to their language and to connect to those things that the families, you know, also value and respect. And so that's probably the beginning. How do we value and respect those things that are coming from the community into the classroom? Right. For example, it's interesting to think that in many cases, and I argue with my colleagues here in a kind of, you know, in a friendly way about these issues and I always tell them. And I said, why is it that ELL English learners in many cases are placed in a categorized at risk for having another language older than English? I said, you know, shouldn't that be actually an asset to them? Right. Or for them in this case and for that society in which we need. So those are the kind of questions that we have to ask ourselves because I think in many cases we have assumptions about, you know, what's value and what's important. And once we start cutting through those assumptions, then it is when we begin to realize that, you know, we have then a diverse, rich environment in the classroom, in the classroom, as a matter of fact, in many cases is beginning to represent one of the global society that we also have. Right. So it's an interesting process for us to discover these things or to uncover them individually, not only as researchers, but as educators and to start, you know, trying to work in that area. Yes, that's very interesting. And yes, I wanted to ask you to maybe talk about something more specific, like an example of a research finding that you've used to and that you that's been effective for working with your your programs, your teachers, your communities. Is there a particular approach or strategy that you've researched and have a great deal of respect for and confidence? Definitely, definitely. I think one of the things I have come across for us lately in the research is the idea that we require from educators in many cases to provide differentiated instruction for the kids, which I think is very important and is key for us to do that. But on the other hand, one of the things that we have found is that we are not providing differentiated professional development for teachers. So it's interesting, right? We're asking the teachers to do something that we are actually not doing with them. And I think that that's an important aspect for us to consider. So in a paper that we recently published on Newcomers specifically, we talk about that. We talk about the differentiation that needs to happen because the students are struggling in many cases and they need guidance. And in some cases, they need the support from the educator. They need modeling. They need, you know, responsive assistance, you know, in the work that they are doing, they need to know whether what I'm doing is am I doing it right or not? But at the same time, how should I do it? Meaning, what skills do I need to use? Right? So all that we know that is helpful because that's what builds resilience. Or like nowadays, you know, people call it grit, right? So we want students to be resilient academically. So we want to do that. But on the other hand, we are also not there yet in supporting our teachers in providing that differentiation in the professional development. Because in many cases, professional development has become like a cookie cutter, you know, approach where even if you are a 15 years or 20 years, you know, educator, career educator, you are placing the same professional development activities in many cases as the new teacher. Right? So so those are the challenges we are facing. And I think that research is, you know, helping us to really understand that educators also need those tools so they can be resilient themselves. But that's very insightful. And I think that that is a constraint. There's a constraint now, which is going to be state budgets. Or I mean, not all, not all schools are run by totally states, but even cities and counties have any, have any fat budgets anymore either. And that is an expensive task, the professional development of the educators. But maybe, you know, what you're saying is it needs to be integrated. It isn't like a separate thing. I seen on the key, it has to integrate with how the teacher grows and develops and sees. So, you know, I, as I mentioned, I, in one of your articles surveying the kids, you know, some of them said some interesting things. So one of them, I just thought it'd be interesting to see what you have to say about what they said. Now, in your article, there's a huge chart and I didn't, I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but I know that these drove some of your coding and, and categorize that sort of thing. So when somebody says something like that, when it's because that would be a feedback loop for teachers, too, is, you know, you can ask the students, how am I doing or what, what do you think about this? But anyway, so what this youngster said about a class that I, that it would be nice to comment on if you'd like. When I do well in this class, it is because I work hard. What does that say? Well, it says also that the student is resilient to begin with, and he himself is not, you know, looking at other external factors only to be the source of his success or her success. But instead he or she is saying, I also do my part, right? And so that's really important for us to notice in the students, because when it comes to developing a student, students resilience is very important for us to have both components. One is the protective factors that they need, either at the school or classroom level, whether it is a teacher, whether it is a mentor, whether it, you know, whoever it is, they can play a role as a protective factor in the school setting. But on the other hand, there is also the component that has to do with the internal. So going back to by costume perspective, right? What is that intracycological aspects? You know, what is what do I believe about myself? How do I see myself? And I think that that's what we see reflected in the research. The students actually talking about what they feel, what they think about themselves. And that's very powerful. I think it's important for us not to lose those voices, because, for example, in our case, what we do, we actually grab those pieces of information and we actually place them in presentations just to show to the teachers how students are thinking that whenever you do something that gives feedback to your student, you know, responsive assistance, you know, and when you model, when you even do cognitive modeling for your students and help them understand what thinking process you use to get to some place, then all those processes are very important and they are very meaningful for the students as well. Well, that's such an interesting point. I wanted to jump back to when you first used that term, which I did put on our lexicon list in my show info. It's differentiated instruction. So can you talk a little bit about what you mean when you I think most people know what teacher professional development is, just, you know, getting, getting to learn, be a learner while you're doing your work and having resources to help you learn, do it better. But what is differentiated instruction mean as you see it working today? Well, it seems like that, you know, differentiated instruction is trying to move us away from the assumptions that we have, for example, that all the students learn the same way and that therefore I can have a, you know, as Roland Tarp used to say and many of you in CREED as well used to say that, you know, the cemetery approach with occasion where, you know, you have somebody in front of you teaching you and that's the only person who knows what is best and has the knowledge. Differential instruction applies to bring about multiple activities into the classroom and that differentiation of activities is due because the teacher is also engaged with his or her students in getting to know them to begin with. So there cannot be differentiation of instruction just by simply me deciding I'm going to differentiate it when I don't even know my students so therefore I don't know how to differentiate for them. Right, so I need to know who they are. What do you come from? Who are you? What language do you speak? What are your parents? What are, what are you like? What are your values? What are your dreams? You know, so all of those things are very important. When I was a high school student in a newcomer program myself, I, the first assignment that I was given by this marvelous teacher, Ms. Sterling was to actually write my first essay on how did you come to the United States and what are your dreams, right? And so right there, all the grammatical aspects, all the structural aspects of the essay were important but she already had the topic and she got me on the topic. Why? And she got all my friends and classmates on the topic because she was tapping into us as a resource as well. So to me, differentiation of instruction involves those prerequisite components that have to do with getting to know the students. After that, it becomes more about what is it that you wanna do in your classroom, right? How do you wanna set it up? And I think your point is good because it's like an informal assessment that the teacher is doing, which is absolutely required that you have to assess where your students are and know about that so you can take them somewhere that when you do the required assessments, standardized tests, whatever they are, then you'll be able to see what travel you have complete by getting. So I think that that is really helpful to know. Also, I'm impressed that you bring in the values to this, but by having that initial, that getting to know these people you're working with and doing an informal assessment with them, even though you're being social about it and interested in their experience level, it's really important to be respectful and learn about, as you said before too, the values and the norms of the families and the community because transgressing on those is gonna get in the way of having access to these students' real thinking. And that's what the teacher's doing, right? Is the cognition, is developing the cognition and you don't get in there without having a lot of trust and they gotta put the drawbridge down. So how do you get that to happen? Yeah, that's really, really interesting. Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say that it reminds me of some of the previous work, that Dr. Roland Tharp and John DeMato did in Hawaii in one of the articles they published, I think that the title was, I Won't Learn From You, Resistant in the Classroom. So the other alternative to not getting to know your students is the resistance that we are going to experience in many cases because the students pretty much they check out. So I always tell my graduate students or those who are to become teachers and I was shared with them and I said, well, we know the statistics on the number of the students who are dropping out of the schools, but those statistics are not really telling us the whole number because there are many children who already drop out mentally from the school, meaning that they are sitting there, but they are disengaged. So the question is, what are the processes for engaging students? And obviously one of the key aspects and principles from CREED was student initiative and choice. And that doesn't mean that you let them run wild in the classroom. It means that they have a voice in the classroom. It means that they feel that it's not, the teacher's classroom is their classroom, everybody's classroom. So, you know, as Gordon Wells used to say, developing a community of learners, right? So Gordon Wells, yes, he was some real major influence. Well, let me try another sample statement here. What do you think about the student that said this to your point, I need help figuring out how to succeed in school. When a person says that, when a youngster says that, does that mean he's not paying attention or what? What does it mean? I think to us, for those of us who studied from a resilience perspective, we know that one of the key aspects of being resilient is to be able to be a health seeker, meaning that you actually seek help from others. You don't internally leave it to yourself and get depressed or withdraw from the challenge, but instead you look for the help that you need. So as a matter of fact, that's a resiliency trait that we look in the students or try to build in the students when they don't have them. Yeah, that's interesting, right. To me, that says this person is, this youngster is open. And if a teenager is saying that a high school student, that would be such an opportunity to develop a connection and build trust. But all right, so what about, let me try one more of these. What do you think this means? I get the same chance to answer questions in class as other students. I think that to me, that it speaks about equity in the classroom. We have to provide opportunities to all the students. Unless we do that, then the students are not developing that high order thinking that they need to develop, because high order thinking is not only a process that happens as you listen to others and you receive the cognitive modeling from others, but as you learn to ask questions, and what kind of questions you ask. So sometimes your students are going to ask questions that may not seem to be even on the topic or very relevant, but instead of shouting them off, I think that what we need to do is to actually support them and to reframe the question if necessary, in a way that it makes sense to them. Basically, when I think about decisions, I think about in the way that I probably would want somebody to rephrase things for me. And so in some ways, it goes back to the person. And so I think that's important for us to be thinking in that perspective and to see how we are going to support students. You know, sometimes you have students who have difficulty expressing themselves and it's not that they are not smart. It's just that they don't know how to do it in this new language, right? So you take me to Russia, you take me to China or Japan or Korea or any other place, and most likely that I will not be able to be very communicative and I will not be able to express myself as a professor. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that somehow I lost who I am, right? There's something inside me that is still there. It's just the environment that has changed. So the question is how do we support children so that that aspect of them comes out in the environment where they are at, especially those newcomers, those English learners who need that support. So equity is about that. Yes, that's really interesting and helpful and explanatory. I know that I had one other one here, but it has to do with the languages and that a student's saying, you know, when I can't do something, I think it through in my first language and then I usually can work it out. But I mean, he wouldn't necessarily know that was okay to do. I mean, that's where we are. We don't know enough about, right? Assisting teachers and they need more help for, is that okay? I mean, I think we used to have a joke about, what was that? Shifting languages, anyway, shift happens here or something. It's okay to go back and forth. Whereas there were other ideologies that had it going another way like everybody has to stay in their language. But yeah, I think I have a question from a viewer and here it is. It's does Zoom teach students, resilience or is the online barrier too big? He's saying the online barrier. The current online barrier we are talking about. Yeah, does Zoom classes teach students resilience or is the online barrier too big? I guess about to try and get at these more intimate or these more value developments. And that's a very good question. And I think that the jury is still out on that one in some cases because we don't know what the impact is currently or will be of the online barrier that we are experiencing as children are also in families are facing these difficult times. There are too many factors. For example, for some children and some families and some communities is the lack of technology, the lack of resources. In some cases is that, you know, children who already were experiencing an academic gap, then how do they actually do this online now? So that's the question. So there are actually a lot of more questions that researchers are asking nowadays than that we have the answers for. But I think that what we are hopeful about is that resilience can be taught through online programs through online media. It shouldn't be seen as the silver bullet of the answer to the question. But as a matter of fact, as part of the process, meaning that how do I structure my conversations with my students? What is it that I am going to be able to talk to them about? Am I going to be able to allow for them to actually share some of their experiences and to develop some of that critical thinking that they need to develop? That critical thinking leads into higher order thinking that then actually helps the students to become even more resilient. Why? Because they begin to think for themselves. They begin to realize and see, you know, what are some of the things that they can do. And so I think that if we can empower students through that process, whether it is happening or not, that's a different question, right? Because at this point, I think we're still kind of a, you know, the whole pandemic situation. It was so sudden that all of the suddenness schools were out and everybody was online. So I think for us as researchers, we are still looking at programs. For example, some of my most recent work right now, I'm looking more at developing research that looks into that connectivity between the school and community. Is there such a connectivity? How are we connecting? How is the home environment and the school environment communicating with each other to support the child's development, academic development, or socio-emotional development? So definitely there are quite a few questions in that area. So you've already, you've just listed a whole bunch of research questions right there for anyone who wants to follow in your footsteps and get into educational research. It looks like even with everybody getting past the virus, I think we're zooming in education forever anyway. And we'll get it figured out, but those are the key components that you mentioned that really need to be unwrapped. Well, I think we're getting down to a low hot time, Hector. And so we'll have to wrap it up. I don't know, do you have anything else that you wanted to say or remind us? Well, I think it's exciting to talk about education. For me as an educator, I'm always happy and excited to address the issues of educational research, partly because it's powerful. And I think that that's the powerful aspect that I want to convey to communities, to Hawaiian communities, Polynesian communities and other communities in Hawaii. Because I think it's important for us to understand that the power of education is so great and so immense that it changes the trajectory of children. It changes the trajectory on what we hope for, what we, you know, what we dream, what we envision for them in the future. And so I hope that we will continue together to make that effort that we know that any positive step that we take on behalf of children is very important. And you as a classroom teacher who may be watching this, every step that you take when you care for a child, when you show that child that he or she is that, you know, that you care for them, that you mentor them, that you help them, that makes a big difference. It made a difference in my life as a newcomer. And here I am today. So I think it's very important for us to continue in that path, to know and understand that the work that you are doing is not in vain. It's actually for the good of our society as well. Yes. And there's a huge payoff for everybody to feel confident as a teacher and to make a difference in a child's development. And I just wanted to thank you again for this participation and sharing. And I'm Stephanie Stoll Dalton. This program is the state of the state of Hawaii and we are on the ThinkTech live streaming network series. So we've been talking with Dr. Hector Rivera from the A&M, Texas A&M University in a college station about foundational education research in Hawaii and its power to influence youngsters and teachers to teach effectively and fulfill their potential. I'll see you again in two weeks on the next state of the state of Hawaii. Mahalo for your attention. Thank you very much and aloha.