 Welcome to the Monday-October 1st meeting of the Mod Peeler Design and Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Hannah Smith. Meredith Crandall. Staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Benjamin Genie. We are an advisory committee to the Development Review Board. We will hear the applications for the projects that are listed on the agenda. And speaking of which, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? So moved. I second. All in favor of the agenda? Raise your hand. Agenda is approved. And we can go to a person for the first application is not here. So we can go to item number seven. Two others are continued. And we'll go to number seven, downtown light poles and wayfinding master plan for my Peeler Alive. Board have a seat and introduce yourself. Dan Groberg from Mod Peeler Alive. And I'm going to call in to John Sealy, who's the consultant we've been working with on the wayfinding plan, if I may. And while Dan's doing that. I would like to separate the banners from the wayfinding discussion. Okay. We could probably, I mean, the presentation banners last so we could probably do those for however you want to do it. I just want to separate it too. And just to note that this is informal review because these. Hello, this is John. Hey, John. It's Dan Groberg and you're here with the design review committee. Hello. Hi, Dan. Hi, everyone. Hi. Hi. So this is an informal review because this, neither of these projects actually need a zoning permit, but we're bringing it before the design review to get input. Yes, we certainly welcome any feedback. John, just, I have a presentation, oh, I should get it actually on the screen with help. Okay. And I guess if you want to just tell me when you're ready to move on to the next slide, I'm happy to do that. Sure. How much time do we have? I just want to make sure that we're not going out. I mean, I think we want to keep it relatively brief because they do have a big project to discuss after us on the agenda. Okay. That's why I asked. Okay. Yeah. So give us just a couple of minutes because the projector has to warm up. Sounds good. Great. Okay. I think we're going to adjust your size in just a little bit. Does this leave top peeping season started yet up in Montpelier? Yes. We're not quite peak foliage yet, but I think you have to change the side on that. Before we start, Dan, can you give us some idea of where this project is in the process? Yes. That's going to be as good as it's going to be, but you have it in your pocket. Yes. So we have received approval from the state TIC for the project, which is a requirement for the driver sign, a vehicular signage. And we've received approval for the plan from city council and I'll note that what we're looking for is feedback on the design elements and that it is not final in terms of the specific signs or their specific placement. So we look forward to continuing to work with various stakeholders to ensure that we have exactly the wording on the signs pointing to the venues that we want to point to in the locations. We plan to continue to work on that. There may not be the opportunity to add signs based on budgetary restraints and I'll add to that that we are on the vehicular signage, very limited by the state regulations, specifically in terms of having no more than three messages on any given sign, so that was a big constraint that we had in terms of how many landmarks that we could point to. We are intending to put this project out for bid later in October to apply for a state grant in the spring and hopefully to have the signage up by the end of 2019, if all goes according to plan. So with that introduction, John, take it away. Yes. Okay. Great. So I know the general sequence of the presentation, Dan, but maybe you could clue me in as to the pages as you guys flip through them. But again, we'll start with the overall goals and objectives to the project. We started this project with Montilier alive two years ago, actually. The goals really haven't changed. The intention is to provide a consistent vehicle and pedestrian and visitor wayfinding experience for the capital city, for visitors and travelers alike, and for residents to really create a sense of place and create a consistent sign language within downtown area. And then, you know, it's really meant to reinforce and provide better direction to all of the parking areas as well as the destinations downtown, supporting the cultural institution. And that's really kind of the big picture. Now the design and everything that's taken place since then, working with the TIC on the METCD requirements that Dan briefly touched on earlier, making sure that we're complying. Also working on the pedestrian side to make sure that we have information and direction for those who have parked and are walking and exploring downtown to take advantage of all the retail as well as the cultural destination downtown. In terms of the big picture on the design, the idea here is that we're creating a sense of place as well as that we're adding to what is already equity of Montilier by creating a really sophisticated and positive design that is positive to the architecture in downtown as well as the streetscape. So keep flipping Dan, I'm not there, but I kind of know basically what happens here, I think. We first took a big picture outline of all the different sign types, all the diagrams that you're probably seeing right now. Outline all the kid apart basically, it's the family of sign types and they all should have a certain similarity in terms of design and typeface, but there's a hierarchy that starts from a gateway which we've identified at Main and Route 2 leading into downtown and then a hierarchy based on vehicle signs and pedestrian signs and information signs as well as signs that support the bike system. That page you're looking at is really just a diagram of all the elements. The sign message hierarchy, districts, public spaces, non-profit institutions, shops and everything. Yeah, so part of what the TIC requirements are in the Vermont statute is that these public way finding signs for the vehicles cannot have any private institutions or private businesses listed, only non-profit organizations and cultural institutions, government buildings and so forth, which is fine because that's really what the system is trying to do downtown. So when we presented to the public two years ago, we vetted this through Small Business Association downtown. I'm not sure if that's the right correct name for it, I can't remember, but that was one of the groups we met with and the idea behind the way the Syrian level at the kiosk level, we're able to create a map potentially with some zones for retail and businesses that could be updated within a reasonable time period because those businesses and those institutions cannot be listed in the vehicle signs. So that slide you're looking at starts to set up that hierarchy of what we do with the vehicle signs and what message comes before which one and what that hierarchy is. And as Dan mentioned, we are limited to about three messages per the MUTCD. So that has not been a problem, we've had to leave off some institutions from the messaging hierarchy because of that requirement, but in general we've been able to accommodate the vast majority of the cultural stuff. You can probably move on to the sign type. Yep, we're on the Montpelier Alive brand page. Yeah, this is a program extension of Montpelier Alive and we want to make sure that it also has that it relates to the economic development portion of Montpelier and what Montpelier Alive is doing for the community. Right about at the time when we started this project they had just completed a branding exercise of which we kind of folded into our design by using this sort of multifaceted state house image with a color palette and we kind of tweaked it and played with it and made it a little more abstract and that becomes a part of the back parts of both the vehicle and the pedestrian signs as you'll see in the design coming up. We've moved on to the sign type families. Where would these Montpelier Alive brand signs be used? Well, you see the branding represented throughout the design language of the signs. So if you're on, we're on page nine now, which is the sign type family. You'll see on the back of the vehicular signage in the bottom of the information of pedestrian signages. You'll see that sort of abstract state house with the color palette that was developed through the branding process represented on the sign. What is the different color palette that you're showing us here? It's inspired by the color palette and we have a simplified logo that has, so the colors are from among that group, family. Well, those colors are radically different than these colors. They're actually taken from among the bottom of the eye. Yeah, branding people gave us a group of colors, a palette of colors, and that inspired the design. They may not be the exact same colors, but the abstract state house and the, yes. Is the palette going to be used throughout? The palette will be used throughout. As you can see, the different signs have some different coloring to them, and you'll also see once we get to the banners, which I understand that Eric wants to keep that separate, but that same language plays to the light pole banners as well. Dan, you could probably pass forward to page 14, and that'll help support what you just mentioned. You can't really see up there, but yeah, so on page 14 it shows the color palette that we're using. Yes, and those were inspired by colors in the logo. You don't have any samples of those that are not, don't come off a printed color printer. I'm looking for the accurate representation of the colors. Yeah, well, we'll get into that once we get a fabricator on board. There'll be a whole set of material submittals and samples that we're going to review. But the idea is that the back of the sign will have one of these six sort of color palettes with a ghosted state house on there at the front. Correct. In some cases. Yeah. Front bottom. Okay. Yeah. Yes. I would also encourage wherever those signs are placed to be respective of the buildings and or environment they are in, as far as coordinating the colors so that you're not clashing. Yeah, certainly to the extent possible. Obviously specific stores may change, you know, the lifespan of this signage hopefully will be long. Hopefully all the life of those stores will be long as well. If you've got a brick building that's there for 100 years, you're not going to put a maybe blue sign next to the brick which contrasts with it. It's not a compatible color. Yeah, we can certainly account for that. Where possible. Yeah, I'm not sure how it's being projected in your screen there, but the palette is actually all very muted and tended to be organic, natural in color. So there's no baby blues or pop colors. Sometimes that gets misrepresented in projections I've noticed in presentations. That might be a reaction going on. Can you speak to the pedestrian directional? I don't understand where that would be. Is it touching the ground? Yeah. Yeah, John, do you want to talk about that? Sure, yeah. Yeah, it touches the ground. It's got a frame that goes across the bottom edge, bolted into the ground, and then up on one side and the other. So it's open in the center of that, but it's fully attached on both sides. Much like the M, that line that drops down as a piece of some sort of flat stock that attaches to the ground. So you might want to go to slide 17, or page 17 on the handout. Yeah. Because that has a good couple of pictures. Oh, so it's open. There are sort of legs on both sides and then open in the... Yeah, it's a thick fabricated aluminum footing. Okay, I get it. There again, that's a perfect example. Hopefully the colors are off from what the actuals are going to be, particularly in those two locations that are exhibited on 17. One of the things I think people really like to see in downtown is to be able to figure out where you are. And I wonder if some of these graphics couldn't be substituted for a map whether you are here... Sure. So the informational kiosks will have a map with the UI here? Maybe even, you know, maybe even more than that. I spent quite a bit of time with this, and I honestly couldn't figure everything out. But that may be me, it may not. I think anytime I've been in a strange community, I like to know where I am and be able to orient myself to where things are. I've told several people, Seattle I think had the coolest one. They had the sewer covers on the sidewalk, were cast with a map, and then they had a little brass pin that was drilled in there so you could just look down at the sewer cover and figure out where you were. But I think those directional things so that people can look and find out where they are, where they're going. Otherwise, you're just kind of left out there with a bunch of science. Yeah. Have you studied the location plans by any chance? I've looked at them. Yeah, there's just a lot of science to try to figure out. Well, they're all labeled by sign type, and they're pretty closely located. They've been vetted through DPW in the planning. We didn't feel like we needed more than three major points for a kiosk. That would give you a map on both sides. And then intermediate to that would be the pedestrian signs, which you just saw rendering of. And then above that would be the directional signs, which are the highest quantity of signs. They're all pretty clearly labeled on those drawings. Yeah, I understand that. I worry some about the content in the number. It just seems like a large volume. This is basically a four block section. Yeah, I'm just looking at it. That makes it look eight on one side of the street in two blocks. So John, he's looking at page 23 and referring to state street. Yeah, and so those are different. Some of those are different. Different elevations. Yes. And some of them are replacing some signs that are there currently. So for instance, this will replace existing parking signage that's there. So some of it is and some bike signage may be replacing existing bike signage. So I would say that it seems like more signs than it will feel like in reality. Do you have anything to add to that, John? Yeah, I mean what you're looking at are sign types that are all in green. There's the B1s, the B2s, and the B3s. The B1s are the vehicle direction signs. The B2s are the pedestrian signs of which there was only a handful of. And then there's the parking signs that are only located at the entrances to parking locations. So I think what might be throwing everyone off is the size of the bubbles in scale to the map itself. It looks like they're all within three feet of each other, but they're actually quite spread out. And they're only placed at major decision points for vehicles and wait and pedestrians. So they're really only where they need to be and not in any kind of redundant fashion. I'm going to say again, I think having a lot of maps of the downtown particularly with things labeled whether it's parking and the major points that you're pointing to the State House, I think that could be done very nice graphically with an image of the State House or an image of the streetscape as you've done here so people can really figure out where they are and what they're looking at. One comment that I made to the City Council when I was considering this is that the information on the historic district be included in this designation on maps. I think there could be some informational signs about the history of downtown Montpelier. People are interested in that. Yeah, we actually haven't gotten into designing the actual kiosks. We're still in the stage of budgeting this project and locating the sign types. So for instance with the kiosk it's a two-sided sign. It could have, you know, the map has not been designed yet. The visual of the streetscape has not been developed will be as well as potentially any company interpretive information about the history or, you know, there's all kinds of opportunities on that sign which really haven't been developed yet. We're at that stage now where you have to figure out what we can afford and how we're going to do it. John, it might be helpful if you could speak briefly to your credentials and what other way of finding progress you've worked on. Okay. The city of Providence, city of Worcester, currently working with the city of Barrington, Rhode Island, Oak Bluffs, Massachusetts, and a lot of other campuses, college campuses. Is there a question right now? I say that just to say that we, you know, chose you because you have done this before and have a lot of experience with wayfinding systems. So just for the committee to understand that this is based on best practices and things that have been successful in other communities. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do want to stress that, you know, the map hasn't been designed yet. There's not a final illustration that would probably answer some of the questions I heard earlier. This is still at schematic level in terms of the design. There's a package that we're going to have to develop that will include all the artwork. And I don't really know what the process is going to be in Montpelier, and that's really up to Dan and the committee to figure out how they want to proceed. But it's done in different ways in different places. So far, all of the messaging has been vetted through the planning office with Cori Lyne and myself. Cori isn't having a question. Dan, I think you've weighed in on it a little bit. But so, you know, that isn't like as Dan mentioned earlier, is not set in stone. So none of this is really set in stone other than the design that we'd like to get approved. Without some of this other stuff, it's hard to develop an opinion based on not specifics. What's the plan for continuing the development of this? Yeah, so there's a wayfinding committee that's been developed that will continue working on this. We'd be happy to continue getting input from Design Review. As Meredith mentioned, this project is not subject to approval by the Design Review Committee. Both because it's within the city's public right of way and because it's considered a public art project. But you're looking for a schematic design review blessing. We would love your feedback in any way and we'll suddenly try to incorporate it where possible into the project. What was on the wayfinding committee? John could probably speak better to that because it was actually almost all developed before I started as director. The Montpelier Business Association, a member of the Montpelier Live Board, Corey Lyon from Public Works, I couldn't tell you who else. I'm not looking at you, I'm looking at the phone. John, do you remember who else has been involved in the process? Yeah, we had a representative from the VCFA, Greg Gossens, who's a board member, architect and designer. All were very positive and very supportive of this. I'm very supportive of the idea. I don't remember her name. She hasn't been involved in over a year. Ashley, who's no longer with the organization. This is pretty typical to be at this stage right now where we have basically created a package that is ready to go to bid for budgeting purposes. In other words, our next step is to make sure that we can secure the money to fund it. All the final artwork, the messaging, the design of the backside of the signs, the color selection, all of those things will happen once we have that contract with the fabricator. But we won't get that contract with the fabricator until we get through the next phase of fundraising and developing the final documents. That's probably why you're wondering why isn't everything fully specified, but it's pretty typical at this stage. It goes in phases. We've jumped around a little bit, but we were getting to the landmark if you want to just introduce that briefly, which is on page 10. Yeah, this went through many iterations. We started with much bigger ideas with the letter M and how we would put that at different gateway locations leading into downtown, kind of distilled it down to this one location. Also, the TIC doesn't allow anything more than 64 square feet at one location. So this is where it's going. This is where we think it should go based on traffic and visitor arrival, and also it's a nice gateway into downtown on the memorial side. So it's a vertical, I'm sorry? I didn't say anything, Zach, go ahead. Oh, okay. So it's a vertical landmark that has a stone base. It would be either internally illuminated or from the ground, and that is to be determined. It would be a subtle glow, if anything, and would be double-sided, can be viewed from both directions, and it takes into the same consideration of typography and the material palette, as well as the statehouse image at the top. Can you speak to the font selection chosen? It's a modern typeface. One of the criteria from well over two years ago when we went through a whole design criteria of how to select colors and typography and all that, it all came down to seeing it's the future of Montpelier, not the historical Montpelier. Not that history can't take place, it should, especially on the kiosk, potentially some interpretive elements which we proposed as well earlier on. But the image of the wayfinding should be, you know, a more progressive, free kind of future feeling, modern feeling for the city, and pretty much everyone agreed to that. So Futura was the chosen typeface. Our representative from VCFA also helped with that selection. What is VPFA? VCFA, the Vermont College of Fine Arts. VCFA, the Vermont College of Fine Arts. I have a question. I'm looking at page 11. A picture of the sign with the big red truck in the background. As far as I can see, that would only be visible as you're coming from Barrie, because there's a tree right behind it, and this picture doesn't have many leaves on it, but it probably does most of the year. And there's no arrow on it to indicate that downtown Montpelier is a right turn at that point or a left turn if you're coming off the interstate. That just strikes me as being not as useful as it could be. I think as far as budgeting is concerned, too, I think there are two primary ways that people get into downtown Montpelier. One is on Main Street. The other is on Bailey with sort of a third one on Taylor Street. There were additional locations proposed initially. Some of them were not approved by the state, TIC. Well, none of them were approved. And also, we have to put them on city property if they're not approved by the TIC, and we didn't have those locations. We had several other proposals at one point. This plan has come a long way in two years. The landmark will be visible, though, from both directions to answer your question. I understand that it looks like it may not be in that picture, but it will be visible from both directions. Yeah. It's nice to say that, but I don't see how it can with a tree behind it. When you get right up to the intersection, you have to choose whether you're going to make a left turn at that point or go straight when you can't see the sign. How much time was spent on this particular aspect? Of what? Locating sign? No, the landmark. I guess my point is I just feel like that's a really visually valuable piece of property in my pillar to be able to create something that is really awesome. This doesn't feel awesome to me, but I wasn't there as part of all the time spent on it, so I guess I'm just... I don't feel like... So there are limitations related to the size that it can be dictated by the state, and then it continues the sort of language, design language of the other signage, including the cutout lettering you'll find at the top of the pedestrian signage in the same font and the same abstract state house imagery at the top and then utilizing granite-based native materials. So the idea was to continue cohesive language through all of the signage. There's a maximum of... How many square feet can that sign be? 64. 64 square feet per face. We had several proposals for that location. I'm certain you did. That's why I just was feeling like it wasn't totally fair for me to say that it wasn't awesome without hearing all the work that went into creating what is there. Yeah. I want to be clear. I'm very much in favor of the project and having people be able to find their way downtown. I certainly have a lot of questions about it. About its effectiveness, as I've expressed for some of them, but I'm generally in favor of people be able to find their way around. Yeah. Certainly beyond this, if anyone carries to submit additional feedback or questions, we can incorporate it as possible. We're happy to look at any ideas. A lot of it has to do with specific signs, specific size, specific location, the way it's oriented, so that it's, again, as Eric said, that you're coming down Memorial Drive. You don't see it because the tree's there. You don't want people sort of driving in at the last minute, looking at a sign and distracting them from driving. In particular, the downtown Montpelier, that's going to be more readable if the letters were smaller so that there's more distinction between the background and the lettering. It's too crowded. Also keep in mind that it's not a wayfinding sign. I mean, it's a landmark. There are other signs on Memorial as you approach that intersection that are giving you specific destination and turning information. So it's not directing you downtown. Other signs are. It's meant to be a landmark. My assumption is that this is a fairly expensive installation. Yes. If you have other signs, and I don't think there's a particularly good location for it, if you have other signs and things like that, I don't see the need for it. I don't know what information it gives you that you don't or what the attraction, so that's going to get people to turn to downtown Montpelier any more than a sign with an arrow that says downtown on it. Thank you. Look at that feedback. Are there any other pages that we'd like to review? Otherwise, we'd move on to the banner. I want to be respectful of your time. I think we have one member of the audience who wanted to make a comment on this. Introduce yourself. Steve Whitaker from Montpelier for 30 years or so. I applaud the idea of guiding our visitors. I would caution that we don't want to... People like to come and shop and be around Montpelier because it doesn't feel like a mall. So we want to not create a set of signage that looks like a mall. Keep Montpelier peculiar. I think this is a perfect type project. Right now it seems structured to... They're looking to clear the gate and keep running. And I think this is the kind of project that y'all need to keep a very short leash on and the expertise on this design review committee and have lots of... I know it'll make it harder to quote the price and get the fabricator, but it needs to be restructured such that the design review committee, whether or not the project is exempt from city permits, change the city rule if you have to to get control of this project in this committee. Thank you. Thank you. One thing I wanted to say that it's been emphasized that we have no authority to review this. And I understand the court decision that got us in that position. And I find that very difficult to deal with in a number of things. This is a project that has a huge amount of impact on Montpelier. And no matter how it's done. Now the interpretation from a city attorney a few years ago is that the city projects are not reviewed in the city where my design review, educational institutions, this is not directed necessarily to you, it's more at Bill and Lee. But this idea that educational institutions, city property, and churches are not subject to review, those are the most important landmark buildings in the city. And all these street signs are very important in the city. They're going to create a huge visual impact. And so, you know, I'm sitting here making comments that I'd like to be helpful and positive, but I don't see that we have any influence on the outcome. Except in kind of an informal way of advising you. And that's just a comment from my position is that this is, I think this is the first, I looked at the city council, and this is the first time I really had a look at this. And maybe I missed some opportunities, maybe there were some meetings I didn't go to. But this is a fairly serious undertaking with a lot of visual impact on the downtown. A lot of potential impact on how people get around Montelier. One of the things I noticed is that there's nothing to do with the new transit center. The transit center was, has sort of come to fruition after this process. But we hope to be able to add some, potentially an informational kiosk incorporated inside the transit center. And potentially also an informational kiosk with the parking garage project. In addition, there is parking signage that points to, the garage was already considered for parking signage. And we can certainly add vehicular and pedestrian signage that relates to the transit center as, yeah. I understand you weren't in on this project, and I'm asking you questions that I'm pecking on you. No, and I'll just give you a little bit of context as well, which is that the, so this is building on the branding process that Montelier Live did with the city that had significant public input throughout the project. And then the way finding a project itself, the committee has helped various informational and feedback sessions with various constituencies and stakeholders and included people from various stakeholders. And it's been presented at city council three times for feedback. Again, one of the, some of the criteria that we deal with projects, even though we may not, you know, vote on this particular project just for our input, a lot of the criteria that are used to evaluate projects has to do with protecting the historical integrity of the town. People come here, one of our greatest resources is the historic downtown. People come here, people come back because it reminds them of the town they used to live in 20 years ago or however long ago. And some of the criteria in particular that were used to evaluate a project, one here, preservation reconstruction of an appropriate historic style for projects in the historic district. Also recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house. So that the only thing that we would be looking for would be if those signs are number one, do not clutter up the downtown and interfere with some of those criteria that we use to judge a project by number one. And just that it be respectful of the historic downtown. We don't want to dilute it so that people don't care because we screwed it up. No, and that is certainly not our intention in any way. I hate to be, you know, designing from a point of, like, concern about bad things happening and being the guy that's like, oh, what about stickers and graffiti? But these things feel like huge flat surfaces that are a lot of time. So that we can actually speak to. John, you were telling me that they're coded in some way. Yeah. They're actually not huge in context. I know that you don't have these signs up right now, but they are within the maximum allowed by the MUTCD and the TIC. Now, in terms of graffiti, we typically would specify an anti-graffiti surface, which is a surface they apply after the paint. And that allows for any stickers or spray paint to be removed. We currently did that in Providence. It's been very successful. And there's technologies getting better and better every year offered by paint companies. So by the time we get this in a fabrication, we might even have a better anti-graffiti coating. But that's a question asked by just about any municipality that has been addressed. Who's going to be responsible for maintaining these ones to get up? I mean, I guess it depends on specifically what you're talking to. Some of it will be public works in terms of the updating of any directory signage. We're hoping to do it in a way that doesn't require too frequent maintenance. I think we may actually drop the idea of having specific stores listed because that may get too difficult to keep updated. But Montoya Live would play some role in that. Well, a lot of places have a system so you can update it. It's one of the questions I have with you. The informational kiosk is designed in a way that it would be easy to update. It's to update an individual listing. Maybe not to the individual listing, but there are certain zones that can be pulled out without replacing the entire sign. We review enough changes in business locations down here through the signage. Sure. It happens fairly frequently. Yes, which is why we're thinking of moving away from listing specific business names on the directory and instead pointing towards business districts on the directory because of concern about keeping them updated. In other places, they have been updated twice annually. So that would be the solution if we do that. I have a question. I'm not sure I'm entirely clear about how these signs are mounted, but the idea of plowing the sidewalks? They are compliant with all the public works needs for plowing. Is public works going to dig them out in the winter when the snow gets deep enough to bury the sign? Well, the pedestrian signage, I think, and informational kiosks would be the only one where that would be relevant. They're not within the plow routes. They're beside the sidewalk plow routes. So they will get buried? I mean, I think perhaps the very bottom of the sign may have snow, but the relevant information would certainly still be visible. How many of the B1 and B3 locations currently exist as their overlay of location for a location that are these all new locations? B1 and B3? So it would replace all of the existing parking directional signage. They're currently located at all of the public lots that you might think of. The vehicular directional signage does not, I don't think they're any existing vehicular signage, but you don't hold them to that. Well, the vehicle directionals actually will replace some, could potentially replace some of the bicycle signage because it directs people to the bike trail, which is being, you know, it's under development still, and that's part of the system, as well as there's additional parking signs throughout downtown that are on random posts, and those would be able to come down as well. So it will consolidate some of the signs, but the majority obviously, there is no current way finding vehicle sign downtown. I think the content of this, I'm looking at page 27, and I have never heard on the corp, the lower right corner. I've never heard of the east district. No, we intend to change that to River Street. River Street district. It needs to be labeled as a district. You can use the name of a specific street. You would have to call the River Street district, but we do intend to change it to the River Street district. And that's like a state requirement? That it can't name a specific street. It has to be the district. So that one that was said Berry Street district, or whatever that ought to be different. Berry Street districts can say Berry Street district, as long as it says district. It can't just say Berry Street. Ooh, layers and layers of requirements. The nomenclature you'll figure out has you in the box. And there are a few that people have pointed out that would be helpful to add. And if it's possible, you know, it sometimes is difficult with where they would be placed, whether or not it could be possible. The vehicular signage in particular has to be located at the point where the driver makes the decision about the turn or not. So for instance, if we wanted there to be a sign that points down Berry Street towards the Center for Arts and Learning and the Recreational Center, for instance, if we were coming from Memorial Drive, there may or may not be a location where we could put that sign with enough advance notice for a driver. So that's something that will work with public works to try and figure out if possible. Hitting east on state and just state in Maine would be a difficult one because of the way the turn lane is set up there as far as signage is concerned. Yes, so that we have a signage that's appropriately located. You can add it to a positive price structure there. So like I said, I certainly welcome continued feedback from the design review committee. I'm happy to share updated plans as we have them with anyone. If anyone has a particular interest and would like to be more involved, please get in touch with me. Happy to do that. Certainly incorporate feedback where possible given regulatory restrictions and the many restrictions that the state has on the vehicular signage in particular. I guess one piece of feedback I would like to offer is that I would like to see the signs... I don't feel like the logo and the color is strong enough and to see that kind of everywhere, I would like to see less just surface area that just keep it to the text and the color and a lot less just... Keep it simple. Yeah, a lot less stuff. Sure, whatever that word. That's fine. That's fine, yeah, I appreciate that. Keep it simple and discreet as the person from the audience said we don't want it to look like the directions inside of a mall. No, I appreciate that. So I would like to incorporate wherever possible the visual identity that's also used in all of Montpelier Live's marketing in locally and out of state marketing that sort of is the Montpelier branding that we're hoping to continue to do even more with and so to establish a cohesive visual identity for all of when you think Montpelier hopefully you will think. I think people are more interested in information when they're looking at signs that I encourage you and I couldn't figure out all what was going on but whether we have the back of a sign sometimes it just shows artwork and a logo that maybe you can figure out what kind of information to put there because as people stop by sign on the sidewalk and go out on the other side I always think I'm on the Historic Preservation Commission so think about, read about the Historic District say something about the historic buildings or have a general map that people could refer to to be able to know where they are. Well, our expertise, okay, so first of all the sign is eight feet up in the air or taller because there has to be a seven and a half foot clearance by requirement so everything above that. And vehicle signs are only meant to be read in one direction or else they can cause traffic accidents people looking at the backs of signs on the opposite side of the street so we don't put information on the backside of the signs that's going to be illegible for people driving in the opposite side of the road. He was referring to the pedestrian signs. The pedestrian signs, the key asks I mean it just, I don't know how conceptual or how detailed this is. Right, but if you look at all the layouts and all the sign locations for the pedestrian signs there's information on both sides. If you go to sign 33 pictures I'm looking at page 17 and there is like the logo at the bottom just taking up space. If you go to page 33 they have specifics. Yeah, I mean I guess that you guys want that, I get that. Yeah, so that's part of the branding and the cohesive sense of place and the place making that is. Okay, I thought you were talking about the vehicle signs if you really can't put information that is useful on that side. I understand that. Anyplace else where you've got, I don't know what FPO stands for? Well, that's just a... No, it's for placement only and it's just an artwork. At the stage we're at right now we haven't actually placed the artwork so that's just a technical term. Future placement only. But I would encourage that space. I wouldn't get hung up on that. Yeah, that space would be used for information until it's done. So I'd love to move on to the banners. Okay, good. And Oliver and Patrick. Yeah, so that is the last page which is page 36 in your packet. So these are streetlight banners that will be mounted to the existing lifeholes. They will be manufactured by the same design, the same sign company that manufactured the Film Festival banners. So they have experience with our particular banners. Currently there are only banners up for the month of March for the Film Festival. These will be in those same locations, 30 locations. They'll be printed on both sides. They're on UV-protected heavy vinyl signage that's intended to last for several years and stay out year-round with only mild fading of the coloring. And they were, again, designed to utilize some of the same brand elements that you've seen in other places. The same font that you saw in the gateway sign in letter B. You'll see that same abstract art from Montpelier Live logo. And there would be extra signs purchased as backup if there were any damage to any of the existing signs. In terms of the mounting, they will go on the existing brackets and they're compatible with the existing brackets and all of the concerns that you might have in terms of wind and so on and so forth. So what are they dimensionally? They are 60... 26 by 60 inches. Thank you. With some additional bleeds at the top for where the bracket comes out. So I think they're actually 64, which is printed tall. For the wraparound. And sorry, I don't usually ask questions, but are you doing all four different types? Yes. There would be the four types and they would be alternating throughout the town. The idea being that there would not be two of the same. Next to each other, so to speak. Just fine with me. Is that enough on the others? I think these are mostly great also. My only question is how much time, if people spent time aligning the letters, I just feel I like the way the M and the N relate. To keep that strong vertical line of the N, the N, the P and the I. Like the I being shifted over. Like it feels like things could be... I realize maybe somebody did all that and chose not to, I don't know. And they thought of doing a vertical... by peeling it up and down. Or something similar to your gateway sign. Yeah, so the gateway sign had originally been designed actually to look more similar to the spanners, but there was concern about the readability on that sign in particular because as you're passing in a vehicle you need to read it more quickly perhaps than if you're a pedestrian and these are more artistic pieces. That's not to say that it's not possible. I will say that we're hoping to expedite the project because this has been something... these in particular have been something that's been talked about for quite a long time and has been some desire from City Council and other parties that they go up as soon as possible. You said they'd last for two or three years or four years. That's the idea and we are planning to purchase right now one extra of each sign as possible replacements, but they are not particularly expensive. So if there was a need at any point to purchase more for a replacement it would certainly happen and obviously in four years there may be another category. So many bottoms are secured too. Yes, there are existing brackets on the light pole that are on the top and the bottom and there's pole pockets that will be incorporated into the banner. So this will change over time, is what you're saying? The idea is that this would be the primary design for as long as they last and that certainly could... Yes, there were some other designs also on design that we could use in the future. We wanted to keep it fresh. The idea would still be to incorporate the language that you see in the Wayfinding signage. Okay. Well, with that anything more specific than that there's really nothing we can evaluate based on the criteria we have. Okay. So again, that was an informal. So you've got some of the feedback. Great. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate your feedback and we do hope to incorporate what we can and please keep in touch. Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you very much. Was Salon coming back or no? No, she can't make it to the 15th so she'll come on the 5th. November 5th. Poor people. She said that she was going to schedule for November 1st anyway. All right. Okay. The next project on the agenda is for 100 State Street. Come forward. Sorry if we can give you guys much time. No, he's going to leave that. Do the best we can with what we've got. All right. I'm so helpful. Come and find your way out. Okay, I don't know what you just did. Do you want it says that? No. Maybe it's just with those. It's powered down. Yeah, probably when it's powered down. Once it comes up, then you just set it to mirror. Well, it should be set to mirror all the time. There we go. Yep, just put it into sleep mode. Yeah, I get it. All right. This is so struggling. Zero power. You don't have to do this. Don't do this. I mean, if we're going to do this, that's an easy beat. I'm sorry. Well, we're going to turn off the lights just to head back. If we're going to do something. Then we wouldn't be able to see. All right. 25 minutes to the parking garage. I don't know what to say. Do you want to see the lights? I think if you turn off, I think you can try it, but I think if you turn off those lights, it turns off all the lights on this side so we won't be able to see our. Everybody can turn around and look at the screen, I guess. Is everyone here? Are you guys good? I'm ready. Awesome. Okay. Ready? Go ahead. Thank you. I know that there are some new members of this board, I believe, starting this year. This is a kind of complicated thing to understand, so I'll try to help explain. Introduce yourself first. For the record, my name is Greg Rabbidow from Rabbidow Architects. I'm the project architect and I'm represented by Civil Engineering Associates, our project civil engineer, Wagner Hodgson, our landscape architects. We also have Du Bois and King who was the civil engineer for the hotel project next door, and resource systems groups, our traffic consultants, our structural engineer for the parking garage. Last year, spilling into this year, we went through a permit process for an 84 room hotel and 220 space parking garage. This is the proposed Hampton in building here. We had an adjacent to that. We, through this and other boards, received approvals for a 220 garage that are essentially extended to about where this dark banding of contours runs through the building footprint now. After a lot of back and forth between the original applicant and the city, the city determined that they would like to take over the garage portion of this project and expand it to provide more capacity, and so the application in front of you tonight is part of several things. One is we're going to create a subdivision so that the lot that the garage sits on will be subdivided from the parcel that currently holds the capital plaza and the approved Hampton in. We're also going to have to amend the permit for the Hampton in slash capital plaza to allow for off-site parking as parking will be provided in this garage. And we're going to have site plan review and approval for the garage as it is now designed. My hope is that we can spend a little time talking about the design, but essentially we took the design that was previously approved, which was a combination of masonry and green screen walls and some other things. We took that same format and extended it to the east so that the overall building extension is now 208 I believe by 115. It's 40-50 feet longer than it used to be. And that will take us up to at least 348 parking spaces in the parking garage, which you see here. The parking garage will rest in part on what's currently called the Haney lot, lands belonging to Mary Haney that the city has a long-term design. The back half of that Haney lot you can see in the garage spills over that. Can you zoom in please? If I can. Here we are the immediate context around the garage itself, which is our primary focus this evening. The bottom of the page you can see both the Central Vermont Railroad bridge and the proposed bike path bridge and the associated approaches with that. Those approaches impact this project site right here where the bike path lands on the far end of the bridge and transfers over to what will become Confluence Park. I know you guys are probably aware that this area is being examined for the creation of a public park and we're hoping to evolve the design of the garage to sort of act as an appropriate sort of backdrop to that and so there is that. There are important features around here. Obviously the north branch of the Winooski River which you can see here the main channel of the Winooski River just down here at the bottom of the page and also this building here, Overlook Associates, owns a building here which is a little garage building and so their property line is there and they have a little parking lot behind that and they have a deeded right to continue accessing that so you can see the driveway that's coming down here along this side of the property is intended to provide that deeded access. Where is the space between? We wanted to be 20 feet away from the existing building or more so at the near point that's 20 feet. There's an additional 20 foot setback from the top bank of the river and that's what this having done in line indicates here. Although for practical purposes it's just this portion of the right here on the project site. So we've maintained a paved access to that otherwise we're showing pavement removed and this is a green space here. Another critical piece of this that everybody wants to understand is that there is a previously approved the plan had a walkway access that came down between the hotel and the proposed garage and continued east toward to the bike path. That will remain as originally approved and designed I think what's going to be different is along the northbound side of that bike path for a little bit there's going to be a sort of small bit of retaining wall so that we can have this ground floor open to natural grade outside and that's for both to try to comply generally with the design guidelines and the regs although they don't strictly apply a reason this is a sort of go by to facilitate discussion and it's also a part of our flood water planning which is an important part of this design. This was not me Yeah I'm trying to get back to my zip drive here. The height relationship between the garage and that existing building. Well I'm going to bring up an image that hopefully shows. Well we did a couple of visual analyses just today it doesn't want to open a JPEG I guess I'll open it in pain. It's got to be able to do that. So Greg if you could make sure to send these to me tonight or tomorrow morning so I can put them in for the record that would be great. I'm drawing that myself. If I could figure out how to zoom the plus side. Yep that would be obvious. So here you can see the approved capital plaza this tiny bit of brick sticking up here is actually the original capital plaza the six-story portion where the bank is and then you can see down here this is all part of the garage a little bit of green wall there's the bridge from the railroad going over. It came up at the last city council meeting that somebody wanted to see this set of relationships so we prepared this for that purpose I just won't say when I close it it's a little slow here because it's not my it's not my rig. I think you're doing great for driving somebody else's rig. Across the bridge? It's really slow. I'm so used to using a mouse. So here you can see on the cover sheet our basic proposal for this garage. Before we have these masonry blocks in accordance with this design standards in the regs there's a first floor open first floor some kind of strong banding between the first and second floors body of the building and then at the top you see indication of a strong cornice what we changed from the original design is we're using the green walls sort of spacer so that any one chunk of the facade is only about 42 feet long and the idea is to sort of give the impression of a solid a green space, a solid and another green space and then each of these solids is slightly different than the others in the case on the corner here you can see that that element we've been talking about before that sculptural element is still there although I don't know if the building is all black also you know daylighting going into the stairwells and then the stairwells are capped off at the very top by these glass elements City Council challenged us to come up with a little more creative way to cap these off and I do have some drawings showing how we would do that but this isn't good. And the arch, I don't remember that from the last time. Nope, the arch is also a new thing yeah so at the base is facing the park is this sort of monumental scale arch on the first floor this wall would be granite with string trims at the top and of course you know they'd be granite coursing cut into a trim piece to go around the arch and then what you're seeing up here are three large what on the architectural drawings would be blank spaces intended to receive public art and this is an outcome of our conversation with City Council and some of the members of the public who would you know want to make sure this thing has appropriately lumped together like a personality. I think one thing we see is the opportunity here for us to engage the broader public by creating opportunities on the building for some major art so each of these panels is roughly two stories tall and about 12 feet wide I was wondering why you didn't do something like this on the other side of the building the more this is really visible from cars going by on right well I wouldn't preclude the introduction of other art and other places I think first of all we recognize the significant importance of the south elevation as the backdrop to Confluence Park but also as the side that's really going to be the most visible from offside side when we go to the north side apart from the little bit that's visible from the gap in State Street the rest of this is going to be sort of facing hopefully ultimately someday the Christ Church's housing project so you know I mean I'm thinking the gap you see through should come in we'll look at all four elevations and we can talk about where other art might happen we still continue the sculpture elements I just don't know if art on that scale works in the kind of intimate space that's going to result between that I'm proposing but additional art is a great idea and we're looking for opportunities for that to happen throughout throughout the design the ground floor the floor that's essentially at grade is at roughly 518, 519 it's set in there flat so that it can be used as parking space but it could also be used for functions as well an extension of the farmer's market is something that's been mentioned a couple of times that's a policy level discussion that the city has to have all they want to operate this thing whether or not they want to give up income like I'm being the first floor of the garage out for an event but I think there was a strong desire to talk to the city council and look for ways to provide alternative ways of using this thing and this is sort of a compromise explain the arch piece a little bit more is it open to behind it's open to the deck behind so what's going on here so that is a security grill and this is the deck yeah you're seeing parking wrapping going on in the farthest behind there's one thing we want to sort of make clear as we're doing this is the ground floor wants to be open because your zoning rigs came when they talk about design control and I know this doesn't really apply to this particular parcel but we're going to use that as a go-by you know they talk about the ground floor being open to the pedestrian environment and you know some sense of stuff happening at the ground level we want that to happen at the same time we want flood water that ever does come here to be able to flow in and flow back out unimpeded so those large openings provide the kind of visual impact that the land use regulations are suggesting but they also help us solve the technical problem with the flood water don't really understand did you look at other openings rather than arched for this piece I didn't and I'm going to be honest with you I think it came about because there was discussion amongst the various city council members about how they really like that form you know so I took that as direction from my client to explore it I think it has to be appreciated that that element is going to be viewed most typically from a couple hundred feet away and so I wanted the art but also the context of the art the facade treatment to be fairly simple and pretty monumental scale and I wanted a big element that read from a distance and these are just going to be panels of some kind that can or can be added to well I if you're talking about where I'm showing the art above yeah well you know we would white panels or whatever yeah we'd probably do some kind of exterior grade level five stucco finish over over a panel so that it can be painted on you know it wouldn't want something with a lot of lines going through it because we're blinded that interest the banding the light colored banding you see going through the masonry was intended to be granite or cut stone and you know we wanted at least one or two places on the building where there's some real exposition of stone since it's such an integral part of Montpelier's history for sure from Montpelier's history in general and so we were looking for a significant statement in granite and I don't know I like the arch form but do you have concerns about or is it just I don't think it's the right language personally I understand wanting to be monumental to read monumental and I understand what an arch in this case I don't think it really jibes well with the rest of the language in the building all the rectilinear shapes and forms and throwing one random curve so the question is has anything else been explored for shapes on that no I mean when I first sat down to compose that one panel I was looking for some variety on these panels so they didn't read as all the same thing if you want me to give that some more careful consideration I'm happy to do that before I come back again I think that the choice of the granite and the sort of openness of it are things that would probably stay I think that those are good features a real arch with the stones yeah I expect it would be we have to build a false work I can't see well enough to see the differentiation well in the modeling you're probably just going to see a mebdon texture at this point I think if you do the arch I think it would be really good to have it look like an effective arch this doesn't look like an effective arch because the trim isn't because it's a facade it's not going to fall off but it wouldn't work if you kind of build a wall this way yeah okay I appreciate that I think you're trying to make the gesture I think the rendering doesn't illustrate the pieces that would take to do that but as the drawings reach completion we can make sure that gets included in there right to look at the whole element plus it looks thin as well that's probably a rendering expedient but as the drawings develop we can address that concern what is the difference in height elevation of this building as opposed to the first one proposed not exclusive of the towers but just the main structure really no change in the basic datum elevations the top of it is going to come up to about the top of the fourth floor on the hotel the big difference in terms of is how much of the ground floor is exposed which more is exposed than it had previously been shown I think that was primarily to sort of create this ground floor with active openings but also again to address the storm drainage issue so again the top of the structure exclusive of the towers is essentially the same as it was before we still zigzag back and forth four total levels but they're split 50-50 because it's a switchback ramp the ramps the end bays are level and then the three large center bays are where the floors are sloping there are some other changes to the elevations you can see how the floor plates switch back and forth I didn't include that in their packets because it's not really the design review I just thought this might have a couple of numbers on it to answer they have the elevations so this is a depth out of how many spaces we went from 220 to 348 the level in relation to the hotel has not changed no and I have an image that helps explain that okay so this image here is helpful to kind of explain the relationship you can see the hotel in the background and that the 42 inch wall at the top the highest level landing there is looking right over the top of that to the windowsill elevation on the fourth floor so those floors are almost there within a couple of inches of each other the fourth floor of the garage is essentially the same as the fourth floor of the hotel and then it's all sloping downhill at a relatively modest slope of like 3.6% it all slopes down and winds its way into the ground you can see here that the only parts that stick up above those nominal elevations are the top of the stair towers this one here which is actually the exit stair on the elevator and that's why it's a little bit taller it's got the shaft extension that you're supposed to have and you can see how far back this panel drops there's an almost nine foot reveal on that first break and then you get a little green wall come around the corner you have this the panel with the arch and the art another green panel and the actual construction drawings that are included in the application package show that there are a series of kind of interesting playful circular holes cut into the fabric of this green screen to provide just the occasional unexpected view out subsequent issues subsequent additions of these renderings will include that we have to do a little more careful mapping before we can make the texture turn right and that's doable because this is a pod system it's a modular matrix this green wall screen or green screen system we'll just shop modify to cut some holes in the panels and trace around them with metal edging that's the big overview perhaps I'll let you guys ask me questions and directly to things you want to see because there's more than I think we have to be out of here in like yes unfortunately we've run out of time and I'm sorry that we had a larger than expected earlier project to deal with so we fortunately and there's some people who are interested in making some public content comment as well and we'd like to give them a chance to to contribute so if you wouldn't mind we'd love to have you come back to the next meeting if that's possible yeah that would be delightful I didn't want to spring this on you and ask for a vote anyhow I didn't want to get any preliminary comments you had and I have gotten some useful things that I can take action on but we would very much appreciate being continued to the next hearing and we can talk more about utilities and stuff at that time I do have information about lighting and all of that as well for that tonight we'll just thank you for getting caught up and expect to see you a lot in the future thank you very very much we appreciate it