 This is transitional justice and a we're going to talk to a Dmitro Soledenko to get that right Soledenko, you know, who's in key right now as we speak and we're going to talk about transitional justice in the context of human rights prosecutions in Ukraine and There had been plenty of them. Welcome to the show Dmitro Morning, Jay. It is nice to be here discussing important things Yeah, tell us about yourself. You're you're a lawyer or a law student or a combination of the two you're in school in Kiev And you're a member of Project Expedite Justice and you're interested and committed to war crimes investigations and prosecutions, what did I miss? Yeah, so you're absolutely right. I'm a combination of a law student I still study at the for the master's degree doing some legal science But I am also involved with Project Expedite Justice as a junior junior legal officer But I am also involved in Investigative part of our work and that effectively means that I also visit the field missions and try to help With my in my capacity as a lawyer in documenting and give an advice how to Manage the evidence, you know, this is the first step in Bringing those to the end to accountability What do you do every day? Mostly it's legal research thinking about the legal arguments so for example now we are Investigating gathering information on the blow of the Khovka them. It's kind of difficult because you have lots of legal qualifications and the the norms the rules under which the perpetrators could be liable they have never been applied in the ICC or before this involves the proportionality and and Legally speaking, it's really hard to to prove and there may be nuances, but yeah, generally, I think there is at least like preliminary finding that There are all signs of the war crimes committed Just because it was indiscriminate attack they they they started an attack on them and they know that they cannot control the consequences and They cannot differentiate between military objects in the one hand and the environment the people On the other hand, so I think there are signs of war crime The Russians denied long enough you have to prove the Russians blew it up I Think so I don't have access to intelligence That's because so I cannot claim 100 cent sure, but they were in control in control of them and That is kind of that circumstantial evidence and I think our intelligence and Yeah, the the trust is it's mechanisms Prosecution mechanism they can find out the information Yeah, I remember that was what Chalanski said that, you know, they were in control of it And why would in the world with the Ukrainians blow up their most important agricultural asset? That's it the aggression for a minute. How is that area doing now as Ukraine? been able to deal with it has Ukraine recovered from the destruction of the dam so The thing is the risk a big problem what to do and that depends on the consequences and When we are speaking about the environmental consequences, they are hard to calculate They are hard to predict. So from the start everybody thought that the area as a reservoir Upper stream it would it would be a desert and It would spoil the land around but the thing is that it now appears that a big forest grow there as It was before the reserve or and the dam were constructed So it it have to change the plans, but you know our government as a Understand in their plans is to rebuild the dam But there are different perspectives in a civil society what to do some some people some experts say that there is no need to restore the dam and we have just rary and the agricultural sector In the South and that's there are new ways in modern technology to bring water to the fields with The new pumping station right from the river without the need to create a reservoir So yeah, we're in the process of recovering there is a lot of destruction and it takes time to recover that and Yeah, there are lots of people who have suffered so it may be hard to recover the human suffering in such a short time and If we're speaking about the environment, it's not even evident what is the recovery and what was the damage was Yeah, is agriculture coming back? So it has it hasn't gunned down completely and it's an important part of our economy and It's among one factors which holds it. So it's operating and Yeah, so you bring in agrarians have already made some noises in the Europe You know with Poland and Hungary So I think that's an indicator that they're alive and make produce and try to sell it to those who need it You know, I told you before we started the show that I was reading up on the halloura more Which is a Joseph Stalin's effort in 1932 and 33 to intentionally starve the Ukrainian people so he could Settle it with Russians and make it a Russian controlled area And that was largely because he felt that this was the breadbasket of Europe and it was, you know Especially fertile and it was a great place for him to control for agriculture But that was a war crime and It strikes me that Ukraine has seen more than its fair share of war crimes Over the years since what the 19th century maybe What do you think about that? Is that is that in your, you know, your thought process about selecting this kind of career Ukraine has had more than its fair share including World War two Where the Nazis came in and and they killed so many people How do you feel about that? Am I right? Yes, so I think it's even more and that it's it's not only War crimes and if you speak about the holodomor it's called genocide The the crime of the crimes because somebody decides to kill People or a group of people just for the sole reason they are who they are and you know, it's like a special intent to destroy the group and so if we take the broader context for for the long times Ukrainians were denied the right to be who they are and People have suffered and these it's totalitarian regime. It's it's it, you know, it's the Under this mechanism and under this government you are not free to do what you want to do It's common economy common Ideology you cannot just decide and that's kind of a trauma. I think it's it's a group trauma because When people have freedom They cannot properly use it if we speak about the economy you have the free market where every every process is decided by the market itself and So there is this transitional moment that when people For all their lives for generations. They were not they didn't have for their free economy Not not only that but everything Politically was controlled from one place from Kremlin and that's the trauma and and the people have to recover from that in generations We call it in Ukraine like a Soviet mindset and that's something that Partially pass it to my generation, but we try to change that to change our approaches and That's that that's where the transitional justice starts in Ukraine It's not about the Russian Ukrainian conflict it starts from transition from the totalitarian regime and in this context we have the war with rationale because Russia resumed to be totalitarian authoritarian and Putin could not see a free Ukraine under his hand and And he targeted us because an example of free frame will raise lots of questions in Russia and As soon as we have started our European path path to freedom he started to make in all this atrocities and launching the aggressions and I think that is really related the Conflict with Russia is in the context of this post authoritarian transition and We have to mind that and a lot of in resolving this conflict depends on how we can Go to the end of the transition from the Saritarian regime because if we Grow the liberal market our liberal minds We have more capabilities to fight Russia because they are authoritarian That's a really that's a really interesting perspective for me. I now understand much more about what the word transitional means But let me let me ask you this if if prior to what February 2022 when this ridiculous invasion began Ukraine was on a path of transition from earlier Genocidal times whatever How far down the road was it? before Putin invaded you were you finished with your transition did you fully appreciate and integrate your democracy representative government freedom of the individual Or were you still on the path where you had a way to go? so it may be shocking but According to different searches Ukraine have started democratic transition effectively in 2018 and We were really at the start and It coincides with the aggression because as I have already said Putin Noticed that we are not on the wards to the way to the freedom Liberal economy liberal market we are We are trying to do that already And and so we were at the start. It's there's there's lots of things to do and that that Changed lots of time because so if you look at first presidents of Ukraine they were from the Soviet and communist party the the if we speak about the second president Puchma he was from the so-called red directors it is the directors of the big fabrics They have a kind of Businessmen not a big fabrics factories and the he was they were kind of businessman Russian not Russian Soviet businessmen and They had all this common the economy and they they just did not know how to arranged a free market and Free society properly and that's something really important because The thing I have just recently learned about the free market how it works is that there is as Minimum government intervention as possible because they know government the iterations then they bring the unintended Consequences for for the economy you set the minimum wage and There is rising the unemployment because People with low quality of their labor they cannot find the job and that's how it works And when you have this common the economy mindset You just you cannot people do what what they want to do You try to control everything that brings unintended Consequences and that keeps you in the in the common the economy and that's what we have repercussions yeah Yeah, and I wanted to teach to speak more about the persecution of human rights relations because that is an important Factor of the transition no because first of that I think it's about the symbolic reparations for people for for for those who have suffered whether that's the Authoritarian regime or the war crimes But what what what victims are you talking about the victims of the Putin invasion or before that? What what's the body of victims that you are looking to represent? so that's complex because As I have already said these transitions are intertwined and And we could deal it like separately. I think there are three body of victims The first is the victims of the authoritarian regime And the human rights relations there second is the victims of the revolution of dignity and the Massacre on my my done and the atrocities of the Yanukovych regime for sure And and the third is the victims of the war crimes. So speaking about the first two categories I Want to be candid here and Ukraine hasn't done all that it could I think that could be more effective like creation or Commits us some kind of commission of truth which could establish the facts about the atrocities of the Soviet regime in a clear words in a clear procedure procedure and that it would be like Accessible to everybody that we're not just blaming them But there is a way or some document you clearly understand why it is clearly Soviet regime was at rushes. I think we would need some kind of that and speaking about the My done victims There was I'd say there was no effective Investigations and the prosecutions for lots of reasons a Lot of people a lot of this pro-russian activists they were let go to Russia and There was a lot of delay Because persecution did not have capacity to investigate major cases Everything was delayed delayed people were let go to Russia and that there are no much results yet some some some try some verdicts in absentia But is it sufficient? I think no We have another we have kind of another chance to Change it with war crimes prosecutions. I see the positive dynamics here as So I also work supporting the war crimes judicial education in Ukraine No training judges and there is so the National School of Judges do a lot of things What was the community of the donors who helped you like the Companies from the US from the UK who helped to educate Ukrainian judges. They they undergo lots of training Both theoretical and practical and I think and there are already Not in absentia, but alive verdicts and people who are serving sentences You see yourself as potentially as a judge So not yet because the Merchant of judging is something when you When you not only have to be a lawyer But you have to be a vice person and that's something that comes with edge age because You have the Evidence you have the perpetrator you have the victim and everything is complicated There is no clear answer because in real life or a life. There is not enough evidence always and You have to make a judgment a decision a decision whether you believe This person has a committed crime and that that involved involves lots of life experienced and just I Need more time to be okay. I fully accept that so One couple of questions come out of that and one is you speak of Ukrainian Judges Ukrainian courts Ukrainian justice to deal with atrocities war crimes and the like Do you prefer that? I mean your view of it personally do you prefer that in lieu of say some other jurisdiction like the international court criminal court or Or would you rather keep it down at home? Is it better in Ukraine to have Ukrainian steel with Ukrainian atrocities Yeah, so I think Ukraine and Ukrainian justice system is shall be central Just for for a pragmatic reason that there is lots of atrocities according to the prosecution 100 around 100,000 of incidents Allegedly war crimes were registered No international mechanism can try all of that and Therefore Ukraine and our justice system we have lots of court lots of prosecutors or shall be central and You know, there is this complementarity principle with the international criminal court which shall Here only the most important and most serious cases Just and and that's reasonable because they have the better expertise and and and When it comes to the interest of the international community The international community is interested to try the most atrocious crimes and So it's all the responsibility allocated between the domestic and international system So when you're investigating and you go out and you talk to people and maybe videotape them or record them or Take statements from them About about war crimes of which they are witness Are you are you collecting that for the Ukrainian justice system or for the European justice system? Whoever means that so The role of the NGO is to is not really to investigate in the formal sense but to find information and map it and You take the first general account of the of the person's experience You you're not good. You don't want to go into detail of his experience because it can be first traumatic and that I Always try to like find the way that the person is not asked the same questions two times or re-re-re-assessed or re-interviewed and Painful Yeah, it's painful. So, yeah, the thing are the NGO they try to collect this What what just person knows in general and then the prosecutors and the investigators they go into detail and Yeah, we cooperate both with domestic Prosecutors and with the in rational. So Dmitri, you mentioned, you know the two phases of Ukrainian history in which there were the communist phase in which there were atrocities and and then the Maidan square Which is relatively recent in which there were atrocities And now the third one you you referred to it is of course the invasion by by the Russians 2022 which is still going on every day and so what I'm thinking is The war crimes that were brought to public attention to Nash the international public attention Because of the Russian invasion May have an effect on the interest of the community in Ukraine and elsewhere To look back to the first two phases where they might not do that and had Putin not invaded But his invasion and his war crimes and his genocide Actually Promotes the notion of looking back to phase one and phase two. Am I right? Absolutely, and he here is when the importance of transitional justice comes so the Not perfectness or I think not completeness of the first two phases. I believe that to you this third phase because if Ukraine could Establish its Free democracy at the start. It would be a lot a lot more difficult Fall to fight for Russia and since since since we really delayed this process transition We had the second transition because the democratic institutes defaulted Yanukovych tried to bring the authoritarian regime back and And yeah, we have started another cycle of transition, but that was not as I have already said We have started really effective democratic transition in 2018 and that's pretty late That's led to the third conflict and there shall be some Conclusions done What haven't we done yet? Before and what we have do you know with this address it is I think that's really important So actually on this path this transitional past Which you describe as sort of multi-phase past The invasion of Ukraine Accelerates your appreciation the national appreciation of democracy and personal freedom It may not have been as as accelerated without without it. Am I right about that? Yeah, so I think the human beings they like studying by errors It's a trial and error way that's sad because you need something really bad to and understand things and That's maybe about the just general public because in our daily lives we can learn things like beforehand, but Educating the all of the people's it's a broad audience. You know, I think it takes more of errors No, it's true and we have so many problems so much atrocity in the world today and you wonder I wonder whether the solution to all the atrocities that we see happening around us including in in Israel Is violence and that's the only way to really deal with it and have people think clearly about it Is to resolve it in violence like World War two and you look back and say gee I would have some terrible dictators in World War two and the way we got rid of that is through violence through war How what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, so I think The solution to that would be just starting from ourselves making our lives better The lives of the people around us better and this small change I think this can ultimately to positive change. That's my that's my philosophy and my logic when When I engage in all the thing I just has a linsky doing the metro. How's he doing? Is he is he moving the needle forward in terms of, you know, a better government a better national consciousness and you create a better appreciation of Responsibility and accountability. How's he doing? Yeah, so speaking about the accountability so it's hard to compare because a Lot of his actions are driven by the unique circumstances He cannot but respond to that with the in some way and So yeah, there is a positive change with the previous periods, but you know It's hard to say whether another person couldn't do better or or worse in the life as the lens key I think and it's a lot of things depends not only on him, but on his team and And who's sitting in the prosecutor general's office? Who's sitting in the parliament? Who's sitting in the cabinet of minister? I think the the work of the president is not to not only to make decisions but to build a Good team in the government And and I think that's something yeah, at least partially There is now I believe more Open doors to good people Into the government. Oh, we have our problems with that, but that's another topic. Well, he's he's he's preserved you anyway He's protected you. He's at least he hasn't you know given in and given up Another leader another leader might have done that And he's very real Josh Yeah, so let me let me turn to something that you and I talked about before the show and that is my concern about War crime prosecutions atrocity prosecutions, not just in Ukraine, but elsewhere You know and going to the very human Flaw about justice about justice is only effective if it's done quickly If it's done slowly, it's denied effectively the old app, you know, the old ephorism justice delayed is justice denied and You know, I think the problem is and you mentioned it in the sense that The notion of transitional justice the notion of accountability for atrocities is still a new science It has only been operating for a relatively short time in light of you know, the sweep of history and so My reaction is can't we make this work faster and I would appreciate your thoughts on whether we do need To make it work faster and if so, how do we make it work faster? Yes, we we you're absolutely right the justice Delayed is the justice not done and the and the thing is it's hard to tell what what would be and Foss justice because you know, when we're speaking about like ordinary domestic crimes, it's Relevantly easy to investigate and prosecute if we speak for example about the robbery one victim one perpetrator CCTV tape You establish just Who done what and you bring to the person to accountability and here we have the whole country the the whole a governmental mechanism at the perpetrator with all the resources and It just hard to like really comprehend How lots of people are on the side and you have lots of Lots of going on in this process of atrocity lots of victims lots of perpetrators It's scarred scattered across the geographical area and this is it just really time-consuming and When you speak about the butcher there is a lot mass graves and Compared to the robbery situation and when you have the mass grave It will naturally take lots lots more time to identify the people to Plot all the information in a in one piece to track the perpetrators To establish that not only the perpetrators, but the commanders and the common responsibility is another important Imported things because lots of war crimes are happening With the acquiescence of the commanders and this is this is really important factor So if we look at that at that from that perspective, I think there is not yet Reasons to say that the justice for a current war crimes is delayed it takes more time but we we need to expedite it and that's why our Project called project expedite justice. Yeah One time I had a joke that we we are project expedite justice not project expectation justice so you just identifies the steps and Try to bring it like you don't know the whole picture, but you know at least the next steps Try to document everything So later when the prosecutors want to bring a case they have the materials try to speak with people because there is lots of trauma and People just need like they not all the victims need like money in reparation it's not it's not only about that because No money can cure all the problems and and and people need like symbolic Preparations when they are treated like humans by the justice system When they are When they have not an additional trauma of speaking with investigators and prosecutors That will be the huge success if this system is more Victim oriented and that's that's something that Ukrainian prosecutors Are trying to do now and and and freely there is a coordination center for victims created The new strategies and they trying to re-approach it Well, you know the fickle finger of fate moves on and people forget to You know for example, it is a war crime to kidnap children from Ukraine and take them into russia and put them in schools and adoptive families that teach them to be Russian not Ukrainian and to lose their culture is part of you know the destruction of a culture And then in five year ends been a year of two almost Um, and you know, it's it's almost forgotten already, but they're there And in five years or 10 years or 20 years It'll be hard to mount a campaign Won't it because they will already have been insinuated into russian culture and They may not even understand what happened to them when they were small children So, you know, I think that the passage of time erodes The symbolism you're talking about you agree Yeah, so uh Thing is with with the transfer of children. It's a hard and difficult situation because Uh It's true that under some circumstances you have to transfer the children from the combat area but It becomes a war crime when you Denies the return of those children and when you try to reeducate them That's that's that becomes a war crime So we should really think and and you made an important Notice about that they trying to reeducate and putting is lots lots in symbolism It's something it's something really interesting and you know lots of his thoughts are built on the uh previous russian philosophy uh, which which are kind of so The the putin's favorite writer is iwan elin and and and under some view he is orthodox christian fascist You know and and and there's lots of in what's happening in putin heads uh head comes from from from that and the wrong interpretation And it's it's also important. I I think here we have like the situation of nintra and hitler Yeah, you know and a crazy idea And a crazy interpretation and crazy Execution yeah for things other than what they seem to be so i i'm just wondering about the The correlation between publicity of war crimes investigations Your work To the world media through the world media And the repetition of those crimes For example, and this is a wild guess I would have imagined After the coverage we saw on the murders in buka That the war crimes by the russians Would have at least to some extent diminished And that when the when the press Carries this and tells the world reveals it to the world That has a salutary effect Um the next time uh putin or his friends Would like to kill people in the street Uh, do you do you believe that so have the war crimes that we saw you know several months ago? Have they diminished because of In publicity? Um, yeah, uh, I don't think Um, they have diminished because of the publicity first of all because putin does not watch tv Hahaha He reads reports from From the paper which his Uh, subordinates give to him It's it's kind of there. I don't know whether it's true, but there is a suggestion that He do what he does just because he's fed with the wrong information Because subordinates fear to feed him with wrong news So I think it it does not play Like it it does not play Uh in in a way to change in something the what what does putin do but you know, it's not only about putting It's about the system and just That country There is lots of people Who are able to commit atrocities And that what happens and and and I think It's maybe it's about the lower education uh, you know just Which which opens like the human instincts or or or something like that, but but Generally, I think they are not really First of all, they do not believe the uh western media. They say it's fake And it's kind of you know They cannot accept that something like that is true because accepting that would mean the only Thing you could do leave russia and try to change this regime Maybe sacrificing yourself Not that's a brave step to recognize that And because of that they believe the fake news and and and and because of that, um, I I think uh Here in the news About atrocities in no way changes the situation in the field Those who won't commit atrocities will commit them Well, we're almost out of time. I have so many other questions for you Dmitry. I hope we can Circle back and and have a further discussion But before we go, I would like to ask you How you're doing? How are you doing in this work and how are you doing as a ukrainian in the middle of a war? Um, how do you feel about ukrainian success in the war? How do you feel about the support of the eu and the us? I know that's a very compound question and I I'm not giving you a whole lot of time to answer it But just like your reaction yeah, so The first part of it how I feel as a ukrainian in the midst of war Uh, I'm more like practical Because right at the start I understood I understood that Nobody can predict what will be going on Nobody can predict when the war will end And it seems not to end In the nearest future Maybe maybe so it could end tomorrow, but there is no Don't think so Yeah, yeah, so you see and Yeah, even even in a year there is no Too much of that perspective so I don't think a lot far in the future I I like to think about the Today and what can I do today? And that's that's what I'm doing. Yeah, and uh, that leads me to how I feel in uh in in in this job So first of all I enjoy what I do and I think an important part of that is That is really existential as how I have already mentioned I I I'm doing what I cannot but do Helping with my expertise Good for you You're the future Demetra Not only for Ukraine Thank you. Thank you for the support and uh just You know Having such good minds with us Uh Is really important And having having the healthy discourse and uh discussing things And uh, this uh, you know, like exchange Of opinions. I think that really benefits us And it was a pleasure appearing it was a pleasure appearing and discussing this Transitional justice in Ukraine with you. Thank you so much Demetra Really appreciate your thoughts your discussions and May I say your service Not to humanity. Thank you very much Aloha