 All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Carrie from Make Beauty. Thanks for joining for People Who Don't Know. What does your company do? We have skincare and makeup. We are a clean brand, but I don't really market that. I don't think a lot of people know that about Make. But we create really luxury formulas, pigmented cosmetics at a really accessible price point and kind of sit in this artistry and indie brand. I think we sit sort of right in between those two types of brands. Let's go to the beginning. What was your fascination either with the creative side of this, the makeup side of this, why makeup of all the things you could be doing with your life, your time? Why this company, you know, why this mission? Well, I think for me, I did not expect to be in beauty. I didn't know that was a job. I also grew up. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to be an athlete. So that was what I was focused on in high school. What did you play? Volleyball. Nice. And I was too short to actually play like legitimate college volleyball. So in April of my senior year, I decided I was going to go to fashion school. I was always creative just because I was dyslexic. And my dad was creative. And so I wanted to, I always did that as sort of like an outlet. And Project Runway was on TV at the time. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I really like fashion. But I think what I liked about it was this, you know, I'd flip through magazines and it was like the overall image was something I was interested in, not the clothing or the model or the setup or anything. It was like this entire world. You know, I was really interested in that. So, you know, I went to three different colleges. All for fashion? No, I quickly learned I didn't like fashion as much as. What didn't you like about it? It just wasn't for me. I'm not that invested in it. It's not something that, you know, like gets my heart rate going. I like it, you know, but it's not something I wanted to pursue as a career. And then I thought I wanted to be like a filmmaker for fashion in some way. But again, like art direction was not a degree, except the Academy of Art in San Francisco had an art direction for advertising degree. And I was like, okay, that's the, at this point, my dad was like, you have to graduate from college. I don't care what you do. You have to graduate. I was like, okay, that seems close. So I went there and I was like, I want to do art direction, photography, design, film, none of the marketing, none of the strategy, you know, which is ironic now, given my job. So I focused on that and I just had really good teachers who just really were kind of encouraging me to, at this time, make very weird films, but it was really fun. And then I wanted to move to London and work at Show Studio, which was like a fashion film house. This photographer, Nick Knight, was making all these films. And, you know, this is a long time ago. So there was no Instagram. There was nowhere except for maybe YouTube for these to go. So it was kind of obscure. But anyway, my boyfriend at the time was like, there's a job opening in Sephora and maybe make some money before, you know, we decide to move. And I was like, okay, cool. Go for it, you go to London. Yeah, go to a different country. So I got a production designer job at Sephora and kind of the rest is history. What does a production designer at Sephora do? They basically make banner ads for, you know, like digital marketing. They sort of prep a lot of assets for e-commerce. You know, Sephora was very invested in e-commerce at the time. So they had a huge digital team, which was also super rare. Because a lot of creative- And what year was this? This was 2012. Okay. So one year into Instagram, you know. Facebook is new. You can target people on Facebook like unbelievable amounts. It's pretty, it's crazy at the time. Now we think about it as crazy, but at the time it was pretty powerful also. And you know, Sephora also was really invested in a mobile app. So in a lot of ways they're- Cause apps were brand new at the time also. Brand new. Like I don't know what generation of iPhone that was, but there's still- I think it was like the fourth generation. Yeah, very new. I think being on a digital team really set me up to have the career that I had. And also now everything is, you know, 50-50, if not more digital than it is retail. So, you know, I just fell in love with it. And at the time there was also this beauty blog called Into the Gloss, which eventually Glossier came out of. And also Violet Gray, which is a small boutique here in LA. They're also online. And just the timing of everything, I just became obsessed with beauty. And it felt like a way to be adjacent to fashion, to be creative. And I also find beauty, the industry and the community very like engaging and inclusive in terms of like, we're all in this together. And it just, that's sort of how it started. I wouldn't have guessed that. What are some things that you're learning at Sephora where you're thinking like, okay, you know, can this transition into running a company? Well, I never ever in my life thought I would have a company, honestly. Like it wasn't, I sort of had a plan in terms of things I wanted to do or places I wanted to work. And I think that, you know, I think about the things that got me to being an entrepreneur, to owning a company. And I think I just kind of always had that mindset. Like one example is at Sephora, right before I decided to move to New York, I was pitching this idea to my boss about integrating into the gloss into stores because it was beauty recommendations from celebrities or from beauty editors, photographers. And they weren't doing that at the time. No. Wow. And, you know, now that's how- That sounds crazy today when you say that, right? Yeah, I mean that is- That's the buying behavior now. Yeah, it's beauty marketing. Like it's all recommendation peer to peer. So you saw that early from a blog, essentially. Wow, okay. And what'd your boss say? I think she entertained the idea. You know, now I think logistically, like licensing all of that would probably be really challenging. You know, not impossible, but she did let me pitch the idea. And I think just that sort of spirit in this kind of attitude or approach to wanting to do something a little bit different got me through having a very successful career as an art director. I worked at Glossier, I worked at Viola Gray. Those were like bucket list items for me. And, you know, then my business partner on Make approached me actually slid into my DMs. And Instagram, this happened via Instagram. Yeah. Whoa, okay. Right before comment. Saw what you were doing, clearly talented. Clearly you have, you're seeing something in the market. You're seeing signals. Yeah. I think he saw in me that I had sort of a point of view in terms of creative and he calls me a taste maker, which I gladly accept that. You know, I didn't think of myself as that, but, you know, when we would start chatting, we just really had a lot of the same like love for certain brands and had the same taste level and just became friends. And then Make actually was originally founded in 2013. Him and I had talked about that brand. And, you know, I lived in New York when it launched and it was such a cool indie brand at the time, which, you know, again, this is 12 years ago. So before the indie brands, before that was really a thing in beauty. Right, right. So you saw that early too. And he was acquiring it. He was acquiring it. And was he acquiring it because it wasn't doing well or just because he liked it? He saw something else that he could do. He liked it. And I think we both thought that it didn't really get a chance. Like it didn't get its full shot at being what, you know, fulfilling the potential that we both thought that it had. And yeah, in January of 2020, he was like, you know, I want to acquire this brand and I'll only do that if you partner with it on me. And I was like, okay. So you wanted you to run it? Yeah. Just like that. How much convincing did that take? Or like, what did you have to see? You know, what's under the hood that you were like, okay, this is an opportunity. I think about it now because for a creative director, there's really only so far that you can go. Like it doesn't always transition into a business or being an entrepreneur. And once you hit a certain level, you maybe just keep doing that at bigger and bigger companies where you start your own agency, which I wasn't that interested in. Sure. And then you, yeah, got it. You get pigeonholed in some way. Yeah. And you know, I also was kind of like at this point where I had accomplished working at Glossier, working at Bylet Gray, working on big brands that I was really interested in. And then was like, okay, I did that. So I hadn't thought beyond that. And when he asked me, I was like, yeah, let me think about it. And then hours later, I think I texted him in all caps and was like, let's do this. And we had established a relationship over the six months prior and we had become friends. And that made it really easy to say yes because I trusted him already. And he had proven success and- As an investor. Yeah. As an investor, he had a, I don't want to use the word incubator, but that's just the easiest word to use. Sure, sure. So he had had that before. And he just had proven success and also had people who had worked with him for 10 years, multiple people. So he had a team. He had a team that- Slot into whatever company, yeah, got it. And it just kind of all aligned and then two weeks later, it was COVID. Yeah, okay. And it really actually gave us a good thing to focus on during COVID and gave us time to just really sit together, do the work. Things were a little slower in terms of development because of lockdowns and supply chain, the whole thing. But it felt like crazy timing at the time, but it really, I think, worked out for us. And what was the company doing revenue-wise before you guys got involved with it? So they had kind of gone dormant. So Make was a brand that was developed out of a big contract manufacturer in New Jersey. And the owner of that manufacturer's daughter created Make. And I speculate, because I don't know this for sure, but I think maybe they got kind of lost in the mix of all the indie brands that came after them. And then her father ended up passing away. And I think around that time, it just kind of sat there. Like it didn't go away, but it also wasn't putting a new product out. And Ben and I always talked about how ahead of their time they were. They had this very futuristic sort of point of view in terms of formulations or pigment even. Their branding was very cool and modern. And we both were like, we love this brand so much. And it just, yeah, it just didn't get its full shot. What year was this when you got involved with Make? 2020. 2020. Yeah, it's been just about four years. All right, so you get involved, it's COVID. You're figuring it all out. What to do, what do you do? What's the first thing you guys go with? So we sort of took a look at everything and we were like, okay, what is the sort of ethos or essential parts of this brand that we want to keep? And that was the forward-looking approach to things. They had really interesting formulas for skincare and for makeup, so we knew that we wanted to continue through with some of those things. And then we changed everything else. Pretty much started over from scratch. Make wasn't clean originally. And I think at this point, clean is like a very loaded word. And it really depends who you ask. I think clean could almost be sort of a new standard for formulation at this point, in my opinion. It doesn't mean products are more effective or they're better for you. You're just taking out that talc powder that everyone doesn't want to use anymore because it was old. So it's more like interests have changed as opposed to like you're choosing a better product that hasn't been, I don't even know, modified genetically or something, I have no idea. I think it's just kind of like the standard at this point. It's like there's a baseline for ingredients you don't use and the rest is sort of up to your innovation in terms of formulation. And we started with skincare because a lot of clean brands at this time didn't have both and make always had both. So that was something we wanted to continue forward with. And I think people probably would have expected us to start with cosmetics, but it just made more sense to start with skincare. And also, we use a lot of biotech ingredients. So skincare was a really easy way to showcase that and tell that story. And so then, you know- What are biotech ingredients? What does that mean? So we call them lab engineered natural ingredients or Lenny. So basically, one example could be you take stem cells from an orchid and instead of harvesting multiple orchids, multiple times you're taking one and you're basically cloning it genetically to create the material that you need. And it's a much less intensive lift on the environment. There's more predictability in terms of your ingredient because you're creating a identical ingredient in a lab and you can control it. You can control the environment. Yeah. Yeah, got it. Is that normal? Like most companies in your space are doing that? I think more are doing it. Biosance, which is a skincare. They're sort of one of the first to use ingredients like this. A lot of brands use this technology to create, say you want an ingredient from an animal, but you want to be vegan. So you genetically create this ingredient that is identical to what you would harvest, essentially. But we do also upcycling ingredients. We have a rice essence that we use, like a rice water wash off, basically, and we upcycle it to then formulate it into our toner. So instead of it going to waste, we're able to use it. Or cold pressing, which is less energy, things like that. We try to use a lot of glass or post-consumer recycled plastics. We have a lot of refills. So any chance we get to make that choice, we do. Even if it's not, you know, refills, I wouldn't say are any significant percentage of our business, but I think that it's important to do those things as a consumer brand because you want to create the least amount of waste possible given you're creating waste by just inherently creating a physical product. So when you first launched it, so you're learning all these things at Sephora in 2012, you're seeing that the sort of influencer marketing is a real thing. Now it's 2020, you're launching this new brand. And so what are you seeing in the market as like early movement and it's COVID, right? So people are at home. And so what do you seeing, or what was the strategy, I guess, initially on the launch? I'm trying, I mean, that feels like so long ago. Anything around COVID feels like a different lifetime. You're like, that was 100 years ago. Yeah, it feels that way. I think it was really just about leveraging the network that I had. So I'm not an influencer. I was not public facing before I had a brand, but I had really good relationships within the industry with press. Ben has a huge network. And so it was really about telling that story and also just getting product into people's hands. And luckily skincare was huge during COVID. That's right, yeah. It was booming. And so it was pretty easy to kind of be like, we're all focused on that. It was a trend, yeah, definitely, yeah. A lot of people didn't know who I was. A lot of people knew of Make, but it had been a while. So it took a lot of me reaching out to people on Instagram, which I still do today, offering to send them product, or it took a lot of me just talking to as many people as I could about the brand. Just nudging them along the way. And so when you look for someone that you're trying to partner with now, who is it, who do you go after? Is it someone that like has a large following or is it more like that, you know, this person is a tice maker to use your word? Yeah, so it kind of, at this point, it's kind of two separate groups of people. I am really focused on makeup artists currently. I want to build, make into a legacy brand that is at the level in terms of formulation and efficacy and just product payoff is something pro artists could use. So any chance I get, I will send product to makeup artists. Is that the standard? It's because they use the best stuff or because they, yeah, interesting. Yeah, I think. So it's not like a dermatologist or like a facial person. No, I'm. Those are colorful. Yeah, aesthetic. Esthetician, that's it, yeah. I have worked with so many makeup artists. A lot of them are my friends. I really trust and value their opinions because they are using so many products. And when they're doing celebrity red carpet or even editorial, that product has to work and they have to know they can rely on it. You know, in a lot of these celebrity makeup artists too, I mean, they're doing makeup on Hailey Bieber and she can sell product like no one on the internet. Like she has used makeup a few times and the first time we sold out. That's crazy. It was crazy. So she uses it and does she, and she's tagging? She didn't even tag it. So how do people know? It took us going, you know, I went in and commented. So you guys were like, oh, she's, yeah, got it, got it. And luckily with TikTok, you can stitch or, you know, green screen. So I'm like, ha, you know, Hailey Bieber. Oh my God. I can't believe it, yeah. So it kind of took that. And then I think too, the other people that I sort of reach out to are influencers, big or small. And I make sure to always support them. I always offer to send product, especially the people who have supported us long term or continue to support us. I think that it's really important that brands and brand founders like engage with them. And it's important to me that they know, that I know they are supporting us. And it means a lot because again, it goes back to that idea of peer to peer recommendation is the number one marketing tool for beauty. So I always try to make sure that, you know, I repost or comment and, you know, make sure that they know that I'm engaged and that I see that they're supporting the brand. And it means a lot too, because they're also getting a lot of PR and trying product and when they love something, it means a lot, you know? And I make sure that I acknowledge that. When it comes to the space in general, do you feel like there's like a tremendous amount of noise? Do you feel like there's obviously an opportunity? It's interesting that like the approach I'm hearing you take is almost the approach. And I think about literally fashion oddly enough when it comes to, so the immediate thing I think of is like, Mike Sherman's a friend of mine. He started Chinatown Market, who's now market. And so when I talked to him, we both play tennis. And so when I talked to him, there's all these legacy brands like Prince, you know, and some others that are, I think just like sitting dormant and obviously Prince like someone licensed it to make a candle and that became like a big holiday candle. But to me, when I talked to him, I'm like, he's the fashion guy. So I just, I just lose my mind being like, we need to buy this and do something really interesting. Cause I think there's a brand that's sitting there and it's like interesting. And so for you to see that, it makes sense. I think I'm like, wow, it's really interesting. It makes a lot of sense. But do you feel like there's a lot of noise in your space versus in fashion? Like yes and no. I think that beauty is saturated just like fashion is one thing though that I really like about beauty and that I think is really authentic to how people incorporate beauty into their lives is that there is not one brand, just one brand that you use. And especially, yeah, maybe less with skincare because if it works, it works, don't change it. But you can still try things and it's not like you have to use the same things every day but with makeup, I mean, I could have, and I do have thousands of different products all for different reasons. And it doesn't mean one is better than the other. I enjoy using all of them. And so that's how consumers use beauty. Creates, like yes, it's saturated but also there is, if you have a good product and ultimately it works and consistently works, like you will stay in the rotation. Sometimes I get kind of like, oh man, like how? You know, how are we gonna do a different or you know, make ourselves known and especially to now with bigger brands sort of catching on and I think a lot of the big brands follow what the small brands are doing because they're more agile and they can move quickly and do certain things and then the bigger brands with more budget come in and do the same things. From my perspective of it, just from probably the podcast's point of view is like, we've interviewed a good amount of skin care brands and I'm certainly not an expert in the game but when I look at the look, the look is like, you know, it's interesting. The look is somewhat identical. There's definitely like, you know, it fits into, there's a vertical where you're like, got it. That color or these colors, these fonts and it looks the same and everything's moving to a more, I would say less gender specific, right? Like it's like, it's a font that both men and women like. It's like a green, you know? Yeah, and it's like copy and paste to the point where there's videos on the AI doing it where someone's like, I use the AI to create a makeup brand. This is, you know, and it's like literally that. It's, yeah, it's crazy. That was something that was important to me with relaunching make because I had worked for really important brands that had established a certain look, a certain aesthetic that a lot of people tried to copy and it was, you know, I was kind of like, okay, we've done the neutral thing, especially in a clean space. Like it's not this way now, but I think earlier days of clean beauty, it all was very neutral. You know, maybe try to look clean or adjacent to natural so that you could sort of be like, okay, this is better for me because. Right, it's a marketing play. Yeah. And I just, I was like, okay, what is next? We've just been in this very pivotal, like insane decade of beauty and okay, been there, done that. So what are we gonna do next? Yeah, what do you think, what do you think's next? Like how do you, how did, like, how do you figure that out? Like, do you think you just have a, and I say this seriously, like a knack for you, like a bit of a genius because you have to. Is that the gift you think you have? I don't think that is my gift necessarily. I think that is my partner, Ben's gift. Ben's gift, okay. But you can come in and say he's right. You sort of see that early, got it. So you know when he's right, or when it's right, let's say. Yeah, and he's proven it time and time again. I would call that a genius. Yeah, that's amazing, yeah. He just knows exactly where to put something and who exactly it is for and how to make it successful and he has proven success doing that. So one thing I did when we started was, I told myself I'm just gonna say yes and I'm gonna detach from this idea of what I think it should be because I really trust Ben and this is not a brand for me. It is a brand that I own and sure I would have a point of view in terms of how it looks, but is that what's gonna make a brand successful? And so I said yes to everything in the beginning and really, not that I didn't have an opinion or a point of view, but I was interested in seeing would something that is different than I wanted to do, how would that work? I wanted to see, which is something that is great about. And it's working. Yeah, yeah. It is really starting, it was slow and I think with Make for me, a lot of newer brands, startup brands, indie brands, I think they wanna build really quickly and sell which eventually that is our goal. However, I want to build Make into a legacy brand that decades from now could be a Nars, a Mac, a household legacy brand. People know it, yeah. People know it. Even I know the Nars. Yeah, yeah. And I have never bought that product. Yeah, yeah, those legacy brands, that's what I wanna build and it's gonna take longer. And I was really hard on myself maybe last year because I was just kind of like, you do so much work and you're like seeing all these brands around you and you have this perception of their success or I have so many friends who have brands and they're getting into Sephora's and they're doing this. They're being mentioned in articles about acquisition and I'm like, not even close to that. And then I was like, you know what? I'm not trying to build that brand and I wanna do it right. I wanna take the time it's gonna take and when we are ready for a retailer, we'll be ready for a retailer. Yeah, I dinner with the Fisher family. So the Fisher family started the gap and so the kids, so the parents anyway. So the kids, I say kids, these guys are like in their 70s. So one of the brothers dedicated his entire, like what he does is basically, he'll find like Diptych as a brand, they'll acquire it. And I asked him, I was like, okay, so you acquire these companies. Diptych is probably a great example. So I think he said when he acquired Diptych, they were in the early tens of millions of dollars. And then I go, okay, so what about them did you like? And he's like, I really don't know. I just like the product. And then I go, okay, so you acquire the company kind of like Ben. And then I'm like, but then what do you do? Like what's the thing that you do? Because I think today's over $100 million in revenue. And so it worked out. And I kept asking him like, what is it that you, and he wouldn't really tell me. Like he kept being like, you know, we just do work. And I'm like, that's not how that goes. I'm like, you have to be more specific than that. And basically what he said was we have a stable. We have a team of CEOs that we know can do the job. And whenever we acquire a business, we just have, we put in at the CE, one of these amazing CEOs, and then we surround them with the right team. And that's it. And that's what leads to success. And I think more often than not, they've been, they've like 10X these companies. And one of the paths is just retail expansion. And so if something's working in America, oddly enough to your move earlier, go to London, like do it in London, you know? And then is your world similar where it's like LA, New York, London? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's similar, you know, or maybe it feels this way because we're in America, but it's kind of like, you feel like, okay, you get to a certain level of success in the States, but you kind of hit the point that you can hit. And then it's about expansion. And I think, you know, I think make will 10X in a country, like in Asia or in Dubai, in the Middle East, like they, I think that's where make will really 10X. And when we're at that distribution level, it'll be a whole nother kind of company, but that's, I think, the real expansion and success in terms of revenue at least. You have such a great story where there's so many like plot twists and it could have went eight different ways. Yes. You never went to London, I take it. No, I didn't, I didn't, no. You go to New York and then you're here today. Yeah. What would you tell like your younger self when you think about it? And I really, I hate asking that question, I've never asked it because it's like an annoying question to me. Yeah. But like, but yeah, I mean, do you just feel like, like, do you feel lucky? Do you feel like, yeah. Yeah, I feel very lucky. I, especially now, before Make, I had a really clear vision and very clear goals of what it is I wanted to do and I accomplished them. Like working for Glossier, I could not believe that that happened at the time, you know, because I moved to New York so I could work with Emily and she didn't have a brand, she had it into the gloss and I'm not a writer, I'm not a photographer, but I was like, I'll figure it out. I will find a way. And then eight months after I moved to New York, they launched Glossier and they happened to be across the street and they reached out to me also, which was crazy. And I would tell my younger self or any younger person to not be shy and be just very curious and make mistakes. And to also, you know, I tell this to people a lot who are like, you know, what would you say if you wanted to start a company or where do I start or this and that? And it's like, know where it is that you want to go where you want to eventually end up, but don't get attached to how you're going to get there because you could close yourself off to many opportunities that could come to you. And, you know, had I been closed-minded at the time, I maybe would have said no to Ben, which I can't imagine now, like it just, it's more than I could have ever imagined. And I feel like extremely lucky that he like found me, I guess, and like picked me, you know? Well, you recognize your talent, you clearly, how would you define your own talent? Like what do you think it is? Like if you were like, this is what I'm great at, like this is, I'm exceptional at this one or two things. I do think I have a certain taste level and that is not something that you can necessarily teach. I don't know where I got that from, to be honest. It's maybe something I just accumulated by flipping through magazines or, you know, my dad was a creative and also an entrepreneur and he had great taste. So, you know, and he was always of like, you know, his mindset was you can take something and do it a little bit better. And so I think that is also one of my strongest skillsets is taking something and making it a little bit better, evolving something, taking a brand. And even when I worked at small brands, you know, they started at such a small sort of, not infant, but like they're in their infancy phase. It's very basic, you know, because you're just starting. And I think through my career, I would always like start at a place and I was really interested in how this brand could evolve and sort of continue to grow and like elevate in terms of brand identity or art direction. Yeah, so you mentioned your dad. So when it comes to here you are in college not knowing what to do. And now you're running this company. Yeah, yeah. My parents were really very generous in terms of trusting me to figure it out. I was dyslexic growing up, didn't learn how to read until I was in high school. And so they knew, you know, but I was in middle school, had to go to school, you know, do well, et cetera. And I think they could see that I could figure it out. You know, I wasn't doing it like everyone else. Sure. Yeah. And they knew I was smart and I was really ambitious and just always up to a lot of things. And, you know, so they trusted me to figure it out. And one thing my mom has always said to me too is, you know, you try something and you figure out that's not it, like it can be more valuable than finding what it is that you want. That's so true. That's such good advice. When I was an engineer, I went to the engineering school and I don't think I was like, I wasn't particularly good at engineering oddly enough. And I just did it because it was hard. I don't know why I did that. And I was like, if I can do this for four years, I can do anything after. It was a really kind of twisted mentality, but I was really good at picking up on patterns. And so like math is a pattern. Science can also be a pattern. And so I just got really good at picking up on pattern instead of necessarily understanding like the subject matter from like a molecular way. Once I was a junior, I was finally able to like see the light of that side of it and how cool it was. But I didn't care for it. It was really weird because I just loved the pattern of it. It makes no sense. It applies to entrepreneurship. Totally, yeah. I think that's the one skill where it's like, and so in some way to your point before, it's like once you immerse yourself in whatever field it could be, whether it's like math or science or literally anything, you know, there's a million, like your eyes see it your way and honor that, right? Even if it doesn't feel right or if people think you're weird, you know, like it happened for me. And when I was in engineering school, people toward senior year, they go, all right, what do you want to do after this? And I was like, I'm gonna go to business school. And I was the only one that said that. And my colleagues were like, why are you here? Like get out of here. You shouldn't be here if you're not gonna pursue this as a trade. And I just was like, I was like, you guys will work for me one day. You don't understand, you know? And so it's interesting how that goes. But like the mockery of it at the beginning. Yeah, I don't have any regrets. And I've made a lot of mistakes and I've done a lot of things I didn't want to do or wasn't interested in, but every single thing you do is kind of, it gets you to that closer to whatever that thing may be. Or closer to figuring out that isn't what it is at all. And I'm gonna start over. Which again, I think is so valuable and takes a lot to be able to say, I tried it, that's not it. I believe in myself enough to do something else. So if people are listening that are maybe big fans of yours or of the brand, they clearly got more of a business story today. But what can you tell those people? Like what's on deck for the brand for 2024? What are the big goals? So right now we're really focused on getting into a retailer, which I think will be a big step for us. And maybe it could have happened sooner, but I think I wanna go into a retailer store with a big presence. I don't want to be on an end cap or a wall and have 10 products amongst 10 other brands. Like I want a gondola, I want significant space. And so we've done, yeah. I love that. I mean, if you're gonna spend the money to be at a retailer, like I want there to be some real estate. You know, and again, I think. That's awesome, I love that. Yeah, I wanna make it worth it. Make a splash, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, I think make is we've worked to position it in this in between of artistry and indie. And we're at a accessible price point. We have luxury formulas that artists love that consumers can use. Like we are ready to go into a retailer. I think there's enough brand recognition that we've garnered over the last year. That took a lot of work. But if someone is going into a retail store, I want them to be like, oh, I've seen that. So that they at least have some familiarity. And again, that will just make us more successful there. So I'm really focused on that. I'm really focused on building out the assortment and again, really focused on working with makeup artists and continuing to involve them in the brand. You know, I have a very little, small little YouTube show called Makeup with Friends where I have makeup artists who are also my friends over to my house and they teach me how to do makeup. That's something too that I think is really fun about having a brand is being able to, millennials of my generation or age did not have Instagram or TikTok to learn how to do makeup. I didn't know how to do makeup like I do now until I had a brand. So I've learned a lot and I think being able to show someone how to use something, you know, again, it just adds just one more little break through that brand loyalty and you know, people are like, I have this eyeliner pencil, I know how to use it. I'll continually use it. When I was a kid like my mom and my mom like taught my sister how to use makeup and I always wondered like, like who taught my mom? I was like, how do people learn? And then I also, you go to stores, there's like Sephora and all these other stores. And so I'm like, so clearly there's evolution here. And it would literally like, I'd think about this. I'm like, so there's evolution in the game but if you are set on doing makeup one way, like how do you learn new tricks or new things? And there's always like new eyeliner, whatever there's something new, you know? I had lost my father when I was really young. And so my sister taught me how to shave. And so I think about that. It's an interesting thing, right? Or it's like, well, how are you gonna learn how to do men stuff? Oh, well, someone will write some, my sister, women obviously shave too. And so it was fascinating. But I always think about that like, how do women actually learn this? Because it's like, you gotta be kind of courageous to learn, like just being right. It's like, most people don't wanna learn because it means you have to admit you're not good. And so in this particular setting, it's like your identity to the world in some way. So it's super vulnerable. And so for you to like be willing, you gotta be brave, right? Yeah, it's crazy. I think about this all the time. Like I just think like, how do people learn this stuff? When it's so personal. Yeah, honestly, it's TikTok and it's Instagram. And I always tell people like, start slow, don't be afraid, you can always wash it off, you know? And I think it's important to just try and to play. And again, make mistakes. Like the amount of times I've been trying to film something. We should do your show together. We should do the makeup together. You can teach me how to show. You can teach me. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. But I also am kind of of the point of view, like I did not know how to do my own eyeliner until I was developing an eyeliner and was like, how am I gonna market this? And I'm in a similar situation with a product we're launching in April where I'm like, I've literally never used this in my life. This is not the format of product that I know how to use and I'm scared, you know? But I'm like, okay, there are so many people like me. That's so pretty, it's funny. And unless you grew up with the internet, you went to a beauty counter for prom or homecoming and someone did your makeup that was way too intense, but it's not like they're telling you what they're doing. They're not showing you, or talking about your eye shape or blush placement. And I think now everyone is learning from the internet or again, peer to peer. Like fundamentally beauty will always be peer to peer and community, word of mouth recommendations or friends will be like, can you do my makeup? And I'm like, I won't do your makeup but I'll show you how to do it. I'll walk you through you doing it. That's one of the best things about beauty, I think. Yeah, I feel like I finally scratched that itch in this conversation. Oh, good, I'm glad. I've been thinking about this for a while and I got to people learn this thing. Trial and error. Yeah, and you can always wash it off. That makes sense. Well, look, where can people find you? Your story, make? I'm on Instagram more than TikTok, just my name, Carrie Barber, same on TikTok. And then make is make beauty official, both Instagram and TikTok. And then my YouTube show is called Makeup with Friends and that's where I am on the internet. Thanks, this was fun. I appreciate you coming on the podcast and sharing your story. Yeah, it's great. Thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, share with your friends, your family or anyone you might think might benefit from the conversation we've had today. And if you haven't already, please take a moment to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. We'd greatly appreciate it. 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