 before. Try to get everybody's voices. I want to make sure that if we talk about nuts and bolts, it doesn't go on too long, that we have time to get to the learnings phase of it, even though you're in the middle of it, that we have time for you to reflect on what the experience has meant for you, what you might be taking away from it, what the value might be from your perspective, and for you guys to sort of opine. When we talk to each other, not to the camera, so we talk to each other, we look at each other. Yeah, we can do a little of each, but you can glance back there, but I think that's right. I think we talk to each other. Because that helps Philip also, because otherwise, we're all talking this way. Philip's going to really feel left out. And maybe just when we introduced, we would introduce to the camera, but otherwise we're talking to each other. So I'll look for just time-wise, so if we're going to start at one, we're going to end it. We're going to try to end... That clock's a little slow, so we're going to start pretty soon. I'm sorry, Julie? Julie? No, I've learned to do a wave, so you know, and then at two, I'm also going to wave again. Two-fifteen, just for... No, I'm sorry. And we want to stop at two-fifteen. She's going to wave. Okay, so... But that means... We can all see the two o'clock. Yeah, but... So just for some reference, it seems to me by around 20 of... At the very latest, maybe sooner, I want to make sure we've gotten... Getting to Yuri and talking about Cherry Orchard. Hopefully, maybe even sooner. Vishnowsky is sad, right? We're good. One o'clock. If there's time, I'll do a little bit about the linkages projects. Howard, we're live. Oh, geez. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Amy Pinto. I am the co-founding artistic director of The Imaginists. And we are here in Santa Rosa, California to talk about international collaboration in a world turned upside down. And I want to start with introducing Philip Arnault, founder and director of the Center for International Theater Development. Many of you know, and I'm going to let Philip use the rest of our panel here and get us started with this conversation. So thank you, Philip, for making all of this happen. Well, not alone. I want to thank the trust for mutual understanding. I wish there was an empty chair here for Barbara Lanciers who couldn't be with us on this trip. We send you our love, Barbara. And I also want to thank longtime partners at HowlRound. They have been so important in helping tell the stories of what's going on and helping us tell the stories. So I thank that whole team. And I thank you guys for hosting us today. We're the CITDs in its 32nd year. And in looking at what international exchange has been, what people have understood it to be, is the movement of ARPOD's company critic or wonderful productions, but finding those, you know, in New Jersey or New York or Demokrimov bringing his production to dance space or to St. Anne's. But with the productions. And that's really been the defining face for most Americans both in the profession and outside. And I think we're at a, I know we are at a real critical moment of danger and of change. I see international cultural exchange as like an iceberg. And what's really visible is what I've just described. Right at the water line, which has some real visibility and that we're going to talk about today, is where not companies, but individual artists, directors, a designer, a composer, comes to work with American actors within American companies to make work. And we have two stunning examples sitting around me right now. The piece that we all came out here to see. ARPOD's collaboration with the imaginists. And I've known ARPOD's work since the beginning of CriticOr. So I first piece and was championing that with anybody I could bring to see your work. And I met you guys I think 10 years ago. And I see this incredible work being done that really is leaving much more than box office receipts. That is leaving an imprint on the American theater that's much deeper. And that I think 20 years from now will have much more impact than the top. But below that even has been howl arounds job, has been my friend Thomas Shotze. When I first met you Thomas, you were translating I think. For me as a graduate student or something. And he's now one of the top critics in Hungary and in Europe. And he has a great story to tell about making all of this happen. But Thomas writing about us here, writing about what he's seeing in Europe, howl around, focusing on beyond our shores. CITD, we published three publications. Yuri will be finishing up his Russian notebook with a long piece on Krimov's collaboration with his Wilma Theater. We have a regular Hungarian letter of news. If you go to our website you can find out how to get on that subscriber list, it's free. So there's been a lot of people trying to tell the stories of what's happening now. And then underneath that the sediment is what I've given really all my life at CITD and before. With mentors like Martha Quanye and ITI or work at ITI, Ellen Stewart, who always started with making the investment first in the individuals. And then connecting individuals. And in both of these instances that we're going to talk about today, these all really grew out of physical, early curiosity and meetings. And you can just follow that thread up to two really brilliant performances that I'm proud to sit in the same room with. I see these as very dark times. I see as the 32 years of my work with CITD being turned upside down with the war. We have just commissioned 23 plays by Ukrainian playwrights. They're writing with the right hand or their dominant hand and carrying their Kalyshnikovs in the other hand. Working with our longtime Russian partner, John Friedman, who's now on the Isle of Crete. We have a huge database now of over 100 Ukrainian plays. It's called the Worldwide Ukrainian Play Reading Series. That's on our website. We invite you to take a look at that. We have over 100 readings that are all proceeds, fundraisers as readings in, I think, 16 countries right now. A great many American country manifestations of that. So we're in the fight till the end. And I think it is looking at, I'm looking at a decade of this world being turned upside down. I'm here with two really long-term co-ponies, partners in crime. Howard Shallowitz, the co-founder of Woolley Mammoth, who stepped down three or four years ago and has been traveling with me first with Woolley Mammoth. And Yuri Ornov, who now is the artistic director of the leadership team at the Wilma Theater and was responsible for producing Dima Krimov's Cherry Orchard. They are the now associate directors of CITD. I just turned 81 and refused to stop. I'll stop when I fall over or they bring out the Money Python drool cup and the hook and take me out of all of this. But I'm here and they're here. And Howard is leading our Polish project, our Polish linkages project. Well, I'm still running with younger 25-year-olds, a Hungarian project. But I'm going to give it over to Howard and Yuri to, he's so much better at this than I am, to take this on tonight. Well, thanks, Phillip. And really, Amy and Brent, it's just so great to be in this space, which I've never been to before. The show that we saw just a couple of nights ago that ARP had worked on with you was astonishing. For those who, I don't think you said the title, Phillip, but the place is Someone Dies Again. S-D-A Someone Dies Again. I think I got that right. Why don't we do so? Yuri, you got a quick introduction from Phillip. Why don't we let our introduction stand? And why don't the other four of you introduce yourselves? You're all involved in one way or another with this brilliant project that's ongoing. And so why don't you just introduce your roles in it? And then we'll spend a little bit of time on the sort of nuts and bolts of how it came about, how it was structured, do some reflections on what are some of the learnings and takeaways even as you're in the middle of it. We'll stop at a certain point and come back to Yuri to talk a little bit more about the Cherry Origin project with the brilliant Russian director Dmitry Krimov, which just finished its very brilliant run at the Willman Theatre. And then if there's a little time at the end, we'll say a word or two about the Poland initiative that I'm working on and the Hungarian initiative that Phillip's working on, but we'll see if we have time for all of that. So take it away. You guys introduce yourselves and take it away on this production here in the Mid-Stuff. So again, I'm Amy Pinto and I'm a co-founding artistic director of The Imaginous, also an actor and a director. But you're an actor in this play. And an actor in this play. A very key actor in this play. Yeah, and I am the same, I'm sure, artistic director with AIM and I'm also an actor, Brent Ludinsey. In this play? Yes. Okay, I am not in this play. Finally, somewhat. Your spirit hovers all around. Yeah, but my spirit is there. I am Tomás Jassoy, I'm a Hungarian Seattle critic and a university lecturer and curator. And I will tell you a very special story, I suppose. How The Imaginists and Arpad met years ago. My name is Arpad Schilling. I'm Hungarian theater director and I directed this piece SDA. Someone dies again. It's Brent, Amy, and ten odd directors. So maybe we should start, Tomás, with a little bit of history. I'll just share briefly before we met Tomás. I know that Center for International Theater Development took Amy to Hungary to the Independent Theater Festival in 2013. And previous to that, Philip, you sent us a package of DVDs. And we put in, the first one we put in was Credit Corps of the Siegel. And we sat in our living room and our jaws were on the floor and we thought, okay, so what in the hell, who is this? And how do we do this? And that really was sort of like the beginning of a dream. And I don't know that we understood that there was anything real in that dream, that there was a way to get any closer than a DVD. And lo and behold, we had a follow-up visit here in our space by Tomás, who I think Center for International Theater Development sent Tomás around the country. And we made a special trip up here. So Tomás, if you want to share a little bit of your experience, that would be cool. Yeah. And you know, it's a sort of a very special experience for me as a Seattle critic and editor. Because usually what I do is to sit in chairs like this and watching a show. Then I go home and write something. It gets published. I get a very small amount of money for it. And that's all. Usually that's what happens to all of us criticizing other people as well. But this was something special. And here I also have to mention again the name of Mr. Philip Arnault, because I think it was 2013. I was in Bucharest at the festival. And Philip sent me an email. At that time we've been working together for a few years. He sent me an email that he wants me on Skype. That time we did not know Zoom, which changed in the last two years. He wants me to meet on Zoom with him and with Barbara Lanciers. And out of the blue he said that why don't you go to the States? Why don't you come to the States for a month for three different cities? Just to know theater people here in the States. Who are the key figures, who are the most interesting companies, and so on and so on. And I said, okay, yeah, why not? And then it happened in 2014 at that point. I defended my PhD thesis at the University of Seged, where I teach and I live. Actually this PhD thesis was written about the work of Arpat Schilling and the Krita Kursinghouse. So, you know, all threads are coming in one direction. And then in 2014 I had this amazing trip in New York, in San Francisco, in Austin, where I met dozens of people with the help of Philip, of course. And here in San Francisco, I met with Amy and Brandt. And they were there, or Amy was there in Budapest three years ago at the Hungarian Showcase, where Arpat presented his new works or his new projects. And here in Santa Rosa, this amazing space, I saw some of your shows here, but we were talking a lot. You told me a lot about your work with the local community, who are your actors, what are you interested in. And at some point I came up with the idea, okay, that's very nice guys, but why don't you talk with Arpat? Because he's really into something like this in recent years. And I think that was the point when the whole thing started, a year later Brandt returned to Budapest and everything is history, I think, but that was the start. And yeah, I am very grateful and actually very surprised and very, I don't know, satisfied that it finally happened because it took like eight years, okay, two years of pandemic, right? But still, it took years, but it happened. And I think that's the point. So that's to put it very short. You know, and I think before we get to Arpat, I think one of the most amazing things about these visits to, I made my first meeting with you Arpat, and then you and Lila coming here and meeting with us in Santa Rosa and was this very special relationship that, you know, as human beings, that it was, that was an indication to me like this could happen. It wasn't just artists coming together, it was human beings that I got along and laughed and we had a good time and that's when it became real for me, you know, it was like, oh yeah, this dream that happened once upon a time. Actually could be. You know, I'm interested because I've never really heard about your point of view from those visits, but, you know, for me it was a miracle. It was like, this is, you know, from this DVD to these visits to your office and then your visit here. And then where we sit now, it's a complete, you know, it's a miracle for us. And to be an actor in your show, I mean that, you know, it's a dream come true, really. It's a moment in time that has become a very full world. Which I think kind of reinforces this point about building from relationships. Absolutely. And one step at a time. Yeah. Amy, can you just give us a quick sketch of the nuts and bolts? I mean, how long was Arpat here for the, you know, what was the actual process of working on the show and then let's go to Arpat and get some of his reflections. The original plan was over a year. Arpat would come three times at different times in order to understand where we were and to understand who we are and the people. And because of the pandemic, we had to. So now we made a new plan and Arpat arrived. Now we have done a lot of work of two years of Skype. We actually still did Skype. Yeah. We didn't do Zoom. And two years of just lots of discussions because so much changed in terms of our families, our children, our health, the world, the pandemic, theater. So two years of meeting in kitchens and as Arpat was around all around Europe, making different productions. And then here in Santa Rosa in February, the beginning of February, through May 20th, just this past Friday, was our premiere. I understand the first couple weeks was a sort of essentially an audition workshop or something like that. Yes. And this is a very interesting and wonderful thing because one thing that we do with our company is there are no auditions. We don't audition. We invite. And then we go through a process together. And so the workshop is, yes, an audition, but it's also a meeting and it's also an exchange. And it is a workshop. And Arpat will speak to that, I believe, because that's a wonderful thing. So yes, two weeks of meeting with about 15 to 20 people before we then took a week to, or a day to figure out maybe the story, the characters. Arpat said, can we use all 12 of these people? And we said we have to, okay, we look at the budget. And but of course we will, of course we want to have all 12. We want it to be the vision. And so it ended up being 12 of us together in the workshop. And you know, I would add that in that workshop audition, as we call it, a lot of the original ideas that are a part of the show, or at least a few. I think, you know, that's what sparked some of the imagination that continued into the show. I mean, a lot of these scenes came out of these improvisations. And, you know, they've changed, of course, they've evolved. But that was a, it was not separate. I mean, it's all part of the fabric. It's part of the process. Arpat, maybe you can talk about where the idea for the show came from to do a piece about gun violence. Where did that come up in the process? Was that before you got here, and then how did it go? Yeah, if you come from Europe, or especially from Eastern Europe, so this question, the gun, is very shocking. This is what just I can say. But of course we have to accept this is another culture, another history. But for me, I think the beginning, you know, when we were together with Lila, with my wife and you together in your house, and this was the first time that I asked you, do you have a gun here in your house? You know, because for me it was, this question is very disturbing. You know, so honestly I don't want to be in a house where there is a gun. Because not just about this thing, but about the mentality. You know, it's like, so who are you? And you know, I think in the United States this is an added question. If you have a gun in your house because of your attitude or behavior or your fear or something, so this is a very important information about you. So how you see the world, how you live in your community, so how you behave, what you feel, what is your connection to the other people. So for me it was an interesting question of course, and it was an endless talk about this question. About his family members, about the, you know, about the relatives who have it, what is the difference, what kind of conflict, and you know, and of course after brothers and sisters and family members, like the roots of all of the stories. And it's the opening scene of the play, where Brent's character asks his brother who he's putting up sort of as a lodger in his own home, and he discovers his brother has a gun, and he's sort of shocked, and it takes it away from him. So it's so interesting that the opening of the play really came from a kind of encounter that you all had. Yeah, so it was, and I think it's a good example of how this process, so we're developing because it was the talk. So this, we had to talk to each other, and it was the same with the other participants all the time, questions. What do you think, what kind of world you experience around you? And because it was only one, I could read a lot of things about United States, but the most important thing to talk to the people who you work with, so it's like how they see. So for me, if we talk about this cultural exchange, and there is another thing, it's, yeah, thanks for Philip and Tomash to be here, but you know what we talk about is how this dream can be more realistic, how it can be not like a big, big project, you know, how we talk about it like how European people and people from United States can meet with each other, how it can be easier, how it can be more flexible and not just talk about it like, oh, it was a dream, it was years and years, you know, so for me it's like a middle-aged story. It was a big plan in the past, you know, and after the ship goes through the ocean. So how it can be more natural, because this is very important, how we can, yeah, this cultural exchange, and if there is a chance to meet with each other, of course the talk, the honest talk, so it's like what you think, what I think, how we see this, and I have to say I am very lucky, because these people here in this company, especially Amy and Brent and the others, they were so generous, so they were so generous to share their opinions, because they have very strict opinion about the things. But for me the next question was, can you be critical with yourself, with your thoughts, with your point of view? So can you imagine, if you have a strict opinion, if you have a strict political agenda, but next to this, can you be critical with it? Can... Because this is what I'm very familiar with. This was the way what we did in Greater Kirk Company in the past. All the time the question was for me and for the whole team. It's like okay, if you do something after, we have to criticize it, we have to step further, we have to... So we can be pleased, you know, it's like okay, everything is so good, so nice, because in that case we lose the root of this, so the theater is something where it's a... it's a termo-major, you know, somehow. And for me it was... So this was the best thing, this kind of talks. I remember it was a beautiful four month here, because you know, I live here, the people can see, but there is a house where I live with my daughter, and you know, it was, I don't know, 30, 40 feet, just every day come here, talk, be with the people and go back. And so everything, we were so focused, and every moment when... So when we started the work, all the time there was a question, okay, this is a question for today. What is this? What is this word? What is this sentence? What is this, you know, what we read in the newspaper or something? So because this was the way to understand the people, and this was the way to dig out the topic and the form and the language, because if you talk about a cultural exchange, for me it was a question, okay, maybe I have a region, maybe I have a language, how I try to make a theater, but how this American actor will react to this? Because what if, you know, maybe what if they are too much or they are overacting or if their thinking is completely different? So it's like different, if I say poetic, what they think when they hear this word. So what is this, how we can meet? And you know, it was very interesting because from the very first moment it was so clear because they are so, and especially talking about Amy and Brent, so human, you know, it's like, okay, the question is how it can be real or truth, how we can find the truth in the theater. So it was very, and the other thing what I told you, Brent, after the premiere, it's very familiar with me because in the creative company we never talk about just shows, you know, it's like, okay, how we can make a newer show, newer show, newer show. All the time the question was what is the mission? What is the project? What is the question? What is the topic? Because all of the people in the house have to focus on this, this main question, the main topic. And it's not just like part of the repertoire, it's like how we can, and this is a luxury situation because we had enough money to make this project. And this is, maybe this is a point when we have to thank for the supporters, the Hewlett-Pockard and all of the supporters and the private supporters, everybody who gave a chance for us to work together and during this work it was no question we have to do something, as you mentioned, it's like a good theater. So we try to find this way. So for me the biggest experience is like we understand each other. And it's not just the question of the language, it's a question of something else, it's the theater language. So we understand each other, we understand the word together. So I think this is what Philip's point, you know, is like how we can meet and we can talk and we can get something, we can share something and we can understand something. And I think it was, it was perfect in this project. Yeah, the investment, the extra investment compared to a show that one of the two of you would direct, right, Navy, is in the time to spend with a great artist and in investing in the time to have this kind of dialogue, to have this kind of somewhat more extended process, you're an ideal company in a way to engage in this because it's not dissimilar to your own process, I would imagine, yeah, Philip. But you know, there's a, there's a coat of to this discussion about the dreamers that made this happen. And I would not want to not remember Lisa Steinler who ran ZSpace when we first, when they first started talking about this. I came first to San Francisco 50 years ago and Project Artot which turned into ZSpace was always a place I spent time with and without Lisa's support early on, I mean I think that really strengthened, you had a real partner there, and Lisa's gone now. She's watching this. We love you. You know what, before we leave, I want to hear more about kind of the takeaways from this production, but before we leave, just to help people who are listening and who obviously haven't had a chance to see the show, I'm going to put you on the spot, Brent. Can you kind of give us a two-minute picture of what the production is? I mean, from what I understand, there was hours of improvisation with our part in the company that then ended up getting scripted more or less by our part. So the thing that you're putting up on the stage now is a kind of finished script which is not improvised at all anymore. Yeah, so it became a kind of script that's set. And I don't know, could you give us a description of just the scenario of this family and the situation? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I think one of the things that attracted us to our part's work was tragic comedy. I mean, it's a dark humor. Things that are painful and we find ourselves laughing at things that might be uncomfortable. And this does involve, you know, it's a typical family leaning liberal, which I think was a very important aspect to this is we wanted to be critical of ourselves and our own bubble. So it is an American family, West Coast, North County, you know, probably North Bay. That was the model. And a mysterious tragedy that happened six years ago in the family that they haven't quite... they've all dealt with in different ways. But it's left a gaping hole that they're all trying to either step forward or deal with in their different ways. And they're part of a community, of course. And this is a big part of this show is what does community mean? The community, your direct community, the siloed community, the others, and when did those separations happen? And I think that that was a big part of our conversation. And I think it's just an organic outgrowth of our ensemble and the people that we work with. It's just we deal with different communities that are one community. So I think that these conversations really, I think, started the larger conversation that became the script. But I think what is even more important is the poetic that our part is talking about and the many layers, the multi-layers that come into this process. And I think that for those people that come to the theatre as an audience that have the curiosity and the depth to go deeper are going to hook into these multi-layers. And if you're looking at it very... on the surface, you might just leave with a very superficial story. Both are there for you. But I do think that the audience feedback already has been so amazing for those people who really do want to go deep with this project because it works on yes, a story level, but on a metaphorical level, a symbols level. It works on you and I think it's a piece that you can probably go and wake up the next morning thinking about what the hell was that. It's interesting, the process leads to the complexity that I think you were talking about, the being critical, asking hard questions. The piece is complex to there's a moral ambiguity maybe until the very ending I don't want to give too much away. But as an audience member you're in a complex position watching this. Whose version of the truth are you sort of leaning towards? That's what I thought was astonishing about it and the fact that on some level or another you want to believe everybody's version of the truth and the play doesn't make it easy to go here's the good guy, here's the bad guy. I think what you're accomplishing here is we do a lot of theatre which is just sort of preaching to the converted. I think we're all a little bit a little bit afraid of that. We know we talk to liberal audiences and we can easily congratulate them for the good liberal things we all feel. I don't mean to speak for anyone else. But I think this piece is trying to go much deeper than that and sort of a challenge of any audience member liberal or conservative to question their own their own points of view. So that's what I think is astonishing about it. Either takeaways for you Amy and then we'll move on but I mean what's the big takeaway? You're in the middle of this. It's a little too but I mean in terms of this kind of process compared to your normal work how might this change your company or the way you work in the future? I think the criticism the real and the autonomy of each individual in it and the way that our pot has really gives space for people to be we're sort of like a dramaturge at the same time because the different people they're playing a character but it's also themselves what they bring to it because it comes out of a structured improvisation an idea of characters and a situation that our pot would give to us and then we as just we would be using our own memories and using ourselves so it's and so this real endless discussions like our pot's saying and this idea that we there were endless discussions about a sentence about a gesture about a character about a backstory of a character and so that's that criticism and that's that discussion and we don't stop even just every day what about that thing is do we need it? Would they do it? Why? and so it's exacting and it's kind of exhausting but it's I think it makes something that isn't just easy it's not easy it's hard one I should add though again for people watching it's an edge of your seat experience I mean watching the show you are like I felt on the edge of my seat every second because even just the way the script landed you're getting new information new complications you know on a pretty regular basis and kind of wondering oh I thought that I think something different Tomasz I'm going to give you the last word on this discussion just to come back to you so thinking back to the work all the work of our pots that you've seen and worked on how do you reflect on what this is in our pots sort of over now seeing his work with American actors? I think this plays okay at one time it's very American so I cannot imagine this play can be you know remade in Europe or something because we we do not have these colors in every way we do not have these problems of course we do have these problems but you know in some other other ways and the other thing is that yes I think it's closely connected to the works of iPad in the last decade as well what he was doing in different countries as he's not working anymore in Hungary just a few examples I think what is really interesting for iPad in the last decade or maybe longer period the family the family as a basic unit of the whole society what happens in the family that happens in the whole society but in a very small scale and what you said about the characters how you identify with them how you accept their truth and so on and so on it all helps that you see a father a mother, an uncle someone there who you can go with so I think that's very important and the other what I had already mentioned that it's connected with the history of Kreatakura as well that there is always a problem so there is always a question a central thing so they were never doing things you know just for fun it never interested him and his company members but there was always a question and I think this is something he takes with himself in his different periods of his career so, yeah Is he accurate? I hate to let someone talk about you without giving you a moment Yeah, I think I really I agree with this family thing and for me it's very interesting because I think this is the place where we got the first trauma this is the place we got the first attack and this is why the family is so big question a big problem for me because everybody comes some kind of family maybe it was a broken family maybe somebody had to go to an institution because of the family so everybody has something relation to the family and this is one thing I think it's important question and other thing is what Tomas mentioned I think western Europe it can happen more but eastern Europe it can happen less because we have less experiences about people of color so what is a very important question and how we can tolerate the different things the different sexuality the colors the different background so it's a big big question and I was very happy to you know when I identify myself I never say I'm Hungarian because of this because I think maybe it's a bigger scale what I can understand and what I can work on and what I can think of then what I can get in Hungary get a chance in Hungary or work because for me this kind of question when we started it was a big question like if this company is working with the community here in Santa Rosa so it's a big question how we can involve this different community so we can make it was a big question if most of the people white how we can talk about the problem between white people and people of color so we need we need to involve people we have to give them a chance to show their point of view and this is very important for me because this is what we can't realize for example in Hungarian theater so you know for example the Hungarian the 10% of the Hungarian population is Roma but you never see them on the stage and I think this is the representation on the stage it's a political question absolutely political and social question and for me it was very good to be in this context when it was like ok it's a statement we have to involve other people and because it can and we knew from the very beginning it was a dangerous game because there is a white family in the center of this show and how we can how the people can accept it and how we can talk about the white people's problem today what is very controversial and for me it was very interesting how we can do this how we can how to say to to be acceptable you know to be with this problem so I think it was very interesting process and for me as well because the main character is a white heterosexual man like me and for me this was very important talking about this kind of white man the problem of this white man the problem with this white man inside outside in the family in his position as a father as a husband as a worker as a person who has a respect for the community so I think this all of this is very important question for me because I think I have less chance to talk about it and for example in these white people and all the time we talk about the same problems for the same people from the same point of view and it's very hard to talk about the other perspectives just the last thing for example lesbian couple on the stage so for here we can it's so natural and it's so good to talk about it and we can examine it from different points of view for example in Hungary if you put lesbian couple on the stage it's like okay do you need this kind of provocation this is the first question do you want to provoke the people and I say it's like I don't want to provoke the people I just want to talk about something that is not so you have a huge message you want to provoke the people and here it's so great this moment when I could say like okay I want to show this on the stage but not because I want as possible but what is with this couple what is in this couple how it's just a love but what's happening inside so for me it was a new dimension everything was so natural but we could criticize all of the aspects of this kind relation so I was very happy to get this wider context and wider possibility for a director for me as an artist to talk about you're giving me some real insight because it's been a zoom project that will become a travel project but and I intuitively understand the appeal of learning about Polish theater because it's got this great experimental tradition but the Polish artists have with the American social, cultural moment with Black Lives Matter with the Me Too movement you're helping me understand it in a way it's sort of a I don't know a more complex landscape in their own culture the short thing is like it's very strange what I say but when you feel you are at home because you know what you thought about a word it was so strange in your context in your you are a strange person you want to provoke the people you think very strangely yeah yeah we heard about this but you know this is not the reality and for me it's like I want to live with this so for me it's not something special of course so I want to eat it I want because I know I understand it so I want to next to it so this is why it's like why it's a provocation if you for example you need a Roma actor on the stage what do you want to express nothing they are just part of the community they have to be there it's not the message so you know it maybe you understand what is this politically and socially well it gives us a little pride as Americans to hear that there is still a kind of openness and freedom in our culture that maybe others don't always have Howard said the edge of his seat there are 80 seats in this performance at sea space this room here is about 50 feet deep the space you are playing in is double this at sea space there are two rows on either side of this long of valley where the shows shows performed and I think that's important as we are talking about visualizing this that I am able to watch seats with actors 30 feet away and are keeping that tension and that focus and they are going to move it here for two weeks and play outside on the street you are rebuilding it for this 50 by four room you used the word tension and just as a concluding remark I think one of the things that impressed me the most was how successfully the show sustains a kind of actorly inner tension and I think that speaks to the complexity of the process it's like everybody is in a complicated state in terms of their inner life I think that may be a great future of our pods work in general but it was palpable in a way that I don't always see or maybe don't often see in the American theater so it was very exciting for me just as a director and many many stories happening at the same time on the stage because we all inhabit the same space and many many stories which I think Yuri you spoke to being this process we had it and I want to hear you speak about it the run through was already happening two or three weeks ago before we opened so by the time we open we are living in it we know the text well it's not the same rush rush rush we get to keep developing the many many many stories that are happening at the same time on the stage in all of those layers and I would love and I know well yeah so let's give Yuri a moment to just introduce this the cherry orchard project which I've also seen a couple times Philip has seen it probably five or six times nine times I think half the performances Philip was at but an astonishing production at the Wilma Theater it's a digital run but it was live for the first month do you want to just tee it up a little bit to help people understand what it was let me first still say thank you guys for what we've seen I watched it both nights and I saw it developing and I'm just very grateful for this space that you're leaving there both for both actors to be and to become and to improvise and to develop every night clearly and how much space you leave for me as an audience member to go to feel those emptinesses with my imagination that's a rare that's like such a rare feeling in the American theater that actors are being trusted and that audience are being trusted and again clearly making connection between the two this was clearly a devised project right and even though what Krimov did in Philadelphia is called cherry orchard it was absolutely a devised project as well Krimov came with a script but the script has had multiple emptinesses again where actors were improvising the text based on the structure of the scene and then we had a special person sitting in the audience writing it down and slowly, slowly, slowly improvisation after improvisation it came somewhere to the final text which sounds similar to the process you were going through with the only difference your thing was based on on the life and this was based of the classical play so that's certainly the similarity I'm finding the project itself also took a long time in preparation before I even got to the Wilmuth Theater as a poor artistic director started by Blan Kaziska the originator of that in 18 so four years ago Jim already did the first workshop with the company of actors and that's another important similarity and I think another important reason for success because being used to work with people who just addition and coming together is one thing and certainly the fact that you guys have company you have the method of working together Wilma has built a company about ten years ago from actors who have been training together and working together for ten years that takes the work to the different level that takes the work to the different level the careful curatorship curation curation both of them certainly and that involves Filipino Blan Kaziska connections between the countries and Wilma looking at who is there who is out there and liking Dima and then bringing Dima but still trying the water and Dima trying the water with the company spending two weeks and that's only the start that's 18 right in this season Krimov came for two weeks to do another workshop of the piece in the fall and then we had six weeks before well five plus tech before we opened it finally in April and we had the run and then we had thank lord now we can do also the digital run so we had some additional people from I think actually this type of 50 states of the country who watched it a number of countries around the world that certainly is the small strange privilege of this COVID moment that you can do it with the equity actors but again I do think that yes that's we want it to be easy it is not easy yet and part of that is time which is in the United States as we know straightforwardly is money it's also in Krimov specific case but I do think it's true about many directors from Europe it's how much the space is the part of the storytelling so we were working most of the time actually physically on the stage of the theater and there was a huge privilege for this project and huge help you know usually we know most of us rehearse in the rehearsal and then we have to jump on the stage right and one of the and also the note that you've just touched upon is that yes having I'm not exactly an actor but I think I can understand enough of this job that having a run through or even a stumble through four weeks before opening is a whole different like profession even right than having the first run really during the dress rehearsal right that's or even in front of the audience sometimes right so this ability to build the world around right to build to put the meat on the bones to not just try to run this narrow trajectory from here to there hopefully I will cover this distance upon my maximum speed with minimum losses right but but to be able to feel to start feeling myself free to improvise you know to take it you know to take it this way to take it that way to give it this nuance to to get to the place which the great Soviet director Afros called the squares of improvisation where you're living within your square of improvisation you can't really go beyond that but this squares intersect with other actors on stage so there is this space which you can share, there is this space which you can explore, return to play with and I'm mentioning the name of Afros partially because that's a theatrical dynasty Dmytro Kramov is the son of this famous Soviet really director, Jewish director would be the right thing probably. So yeah, that's the experience with Chereochard. There was another very specific circumstance that made this perhaps more complicated just to clarify for people the timing in relation to the Putin invasion of Ukraine Yeah, that's like you know I'm also coming, I'm here for 13 years but I'm coming from Russia and I think every time Russian right now at least even opens their mouth we should not forget to mention the general context of the catastrophe that my native country created in this world almost 3 months ago and I think that's extremely important now, probably more important than 2 months ago because we start getting used to this fact it's 3 months tomorrow I believe right 3 days away from now we start to like oh ok we start adjusting we start like no, that's the new normal and that's not the new normal we should do anything and everything to try to not accept it as the new normal what Putin is now projecting on to the world and specifically on to Ukraine which is standing there to protect all of us honestly in these days needs to be remembered daily and needs to be fought daily the question certainly we ran into when Karimov came here for the finals part of the project he came 2 days, 3 days I know it was the last flight that actually made it from Moscow to New York the next one was already turned around and the question we faced and we had this talk with everybody with him included is like ok this is the Russian artist doing the historical Russian play today when Russia is killing their neighbors, killing their brothers in Ukraine can we even do that? Geregiev cancelled met that week and I do think that and we said yes, we should and I and I do think that the beginning of this was about well there is Geregiev and there is Karimov and there are two very different entities and then also we kind of got back to you know theatrical thing well theatre people here right and let's get it back to the analysis more ok there is this hyper objective there is this hyper objective we all heard about that and today's hyper objective is to and to bring this Putin back home in whichever form dead or alive we need to stop that and I do think that in this new circumstances we need to if we have this as a hyper objective we need to understand what is right about our actions in this and our actions every action that takes us closer to this hyper objective is right and I do think that in this circumstances letting Russian artists who are against the war who don't support Putin who feel horrible about this invasion they need to be supported because I do think that otherwise we're actually playing the Putin's hand if we're not supporting people we're not supporting him it's a thin line but that's the only logic I could find at least for myself within this very complicated discourse and moment but it also became a major feature of the production when I was watching the show I felt like I was watching a great artist almost work out in real time in the production itself his feelings about what was going on in Russia and the cherry orchard is a sort of good by play and there was a feeling of you know that I had is no more something is irrevocably being destroyed by what Putin is doing and it gave the piece an incredible emotional power and to sort of time the resonance Dima told me that when he left Moscow to come to Philadelphia behind his desk were 10 projects that he's committed to for the next three years every one of them has been cancelled he will I don't know what will happen to his things in Moscow he's he's he's directing in the in the Baltics right now just came from Israel will come back I think he's going to do some work at GAO but it won't be full time and I think we're going to see him moving the Krimov lab to New York and we're going to be right there helping him all the way through I know go ahead I didn't want to cut you off because one of the things that I feel about now we're coming to a very serious part of this conversation this has all been very serious I feel we're all in the same struggles we're all in the same fight I mean when I talk to artists in Poland the things that they're struggling with what we've gone through during the Trump years and continuing in the United States what you've lived through in Hungary that led to your leaving the country and not being able to work there we're in this together and I think and if anything this fighting Ukraine has made us realize that perhaps more than we did before this feeling that Ukraine and all of Eastern Europe most of whom are NATO partners are in this struggle together and it's a struggle that's around culture and around theater which is in a way one of the most provocative parts of our culture and I think just to maybe say a word about the linkages projects Phillip is working on and the linkages project was conceived as a travel exchange project of the kind that Phillip has done for 32 years bringing Americans to other countries and bringing foreign artists to the United States but we conceived of it just at the beginning of the pandemic and then our initial trips got cancelled and so Phillip for two years has been hosting Zoom engagements between about 14 or 15 American graduate students and seven of their counterparts in Hungary who were part of the barricading of the university when the Orban government succeeded ultimately in taking the university over and it's been a kind of fascinating set of dialogues extensive exchange four and a half hours among little pods of two Americans and one of four years to continue to build these relationships including travel as soon as that's possible to do so that hopefully will lead to outcomes like the ones that we're talking about and I'm doing something similar in Poland but not with students with sort of the emerging generation of theater leaders in Poland and the emerging generation of theater leaders in the United States and I think what's been most astonishing to me about the project is that I don't have to do anything to tee up these conversations they see each other's work by video and I was very happy to learn that video played a role in the start of your project because I don't think we take advantage enough of the exchange of productions on video and we're Phillip and I are cooking up a project that might relate to that as well but what I find is that they just share some videos of one another's work some of them have had no previous exposure to Polish work or some of the Polish artists have had no previous exposure or no significant exposure to American theater and they know what they need to talk about because they're in the same world dealing with the same, not exactly the same set of challenges as you said the nuances of it in the United States are different but we are in a global struggle and I think all of CIT these projects have helped us feel how, for better or worse how much we're all united in that struggle so my own view, just my own two cents is the more that we engage with artists from other countries and find ways to actually work together like in these projects the more we learn, the more we gain solidarity with one another the more we learn tactics for withstanding the onslaughts that we're all facing and the more we enrich each other's cultural experience and we're committed to Poland for four years as well and because Howard's cohort are these emerging leaders and in many cases gatekeepers two projects in the first year are similar just from a zoom engagement there's already a hunger to make some exchange projects happen I don't want to say what they are because they may or may not but they are but what was surprising was that we sort of said this is just to get to know each other, let's not talk about collaboration from just four and a half hours of conversation and what we learned is in a number of these people we're already talking about collaboration because that's what artists do they meet people they like and who inspire them and they say how can we work together so it really does sort of in a way give the rationale for the whole CITD project by whatever means video, zoom or traveling, meeting each other and then finding ways to support those further engagements I want to just open up for a little bit any thoughts about now where our conversation has gotten to now about where we are in the world the importance of this kind of work and where you sit in relation to it I do want to finish though CITD we're going to be helping Yuri go to Avignon in June where a group of now expat Russians some really key people are going to gather to talk about what I think was touched on earlier in my speech about we're not going to give up on Russia we're not going to give up on good Russians and that we're going to be in that game again for the long haul and at CITD I've never asked for money I've done a lot of work but I've gotten big grants to do the work and once the war started I asked and I got two initial grants of $60,000 to go together for not a war chest a hope chest that CITD will be able to respond immediately the first of those I think the first 15 commissions of playwrights from Ukraine we were able to get the money once I heard by phone that we were going to get the grant within 48 hours of their hands so we're doing six months from now you might hear this is emergency funding and so all the people I'm going to hit all of you up to help us replenish that so that we can be in there with resources to take advantage of opportunities where it's most needed yeah one thing I always come back to is that we shouldn't be blaming artists for the actions of their governments and the other thing that I think about is any of us in almost any country in the world right now could be in our pads position or cream ups position of being a person without a country without your home country because the circumstances don't make it possible for you to do the work you believe in that could happen to any of us in the world so it's important for us to remember that we're supporting artists no matter the complexity of their circumstances and as their circumstances become more difficult and more complex they need our support even more any other we have just a couple minutes left but I'm just curious from any of you big reflections on these themes the challenges that we may be facing in the coming years how they may be affecting you and your work maybe I just want to you know underline the importance of what these projects show I mean the as the someone dies again and even the Cherry Orchard projects that I think we are living in times when these personal relationships get more and more important so I strongly have the feeling that the time of the big institutions is over or will be soon over I can see it in Hungary because you know one day government or the governments can say that okay no more money then what can we do then we can call each other we can approach each other what is extremely dangerous with Seattle that you can go outside the street you can sit on a bench you can make Seattle in your own living room and no one can stop you doing this and that's why Seattle is so dangerous for governments so yeah but sorry but I believe the big institutions and I'm very proud in Europe existing this kind of system the state supports the culture so in this country I think it's important to say it's something that is important and it's very big problem if it's not like this because you know it's good if the people know if we give our taxes for the state the culture is a part of the state it's not just economy it's not just business but the culture is part of it and in this country it's not clear but you know in Europe the Eastern Europe and Europe so I have to say something so what I like in Europe very much there is a culture about the state support because the people can understand our life is not just the business our life is culture question and I think this is but I understand what you say which as I want to say I think we have to fight for the institution so we have to fight for it because if we give up okay the government can occupy everything so in that case we give up our freedom and we give up the fight for the culture so I think so I think it's good if there are institutions and it's a question who lead them and it's a question how the society dealing with them and obviously the challenge you're talking about Tamash's situation like in your own country where the government is deciding what what artists should be saying and that's what starts to make institutions feel very very suspect when that happens so I think what our pad is saying is we need to be fighting for independent and free institutions where artists can what they have to be I think there is a link to this question that Yuri said so I am absolutely against the blaming of a nation or blaming of community together but we have to understand the responsibility of the artist not just the government not just the leaders so we can point on put you know we can point on Orban this was my biggest problem in my country I didn't leave because of Orban I left because of my own profession who completely refused to fight against the things so this was my problem my community was the problem not the leader not the dictator you know it's like because when I felt I am completely alone so this was the moment when I said okay I need the distance so I just want to say I don't want to blame the artist together but the artist have to understand they are very important and they can say we are just serve the eternity so they have to know they live in the present time and they are responsible persons we not just use the audience admiration so we have to serve the interest of the society so this is what I think it's very important in the case of Russia or Hungary and all of this kind of thing so we have to know it's very important what we say we can't say we are just artists because in that case we don't serve for the support in that case it's but if somebody make a statement and brave enough and responsible enough I think it's like yeah so this is this is the good way I guess when I was thinking about the Ukrainian initiative I found some language or I created some language that talked about what these plays would be doing would be writing the first draft of history through the poet's eyes through the playwright's eyes and my partner John Friedman came back at me and he'd been so busy just juggling seven balls in the air he came back and said what yes and also what these playwrights are doing is envisioning what the new Ukraine will be not just the history but what can this more inclusive and cohesive nation can be as they move out of arm to arm battle into the vicissitudes of power and you know post-war and I wish I could say I think that's going to happen sooner than later we're celebrating three months of that right now but that certainly speaks to the artist's responsibility it's a big responsibility I'm really glad you talked about that well let's wind up here I think we're coming to the end just to say thank you to all of you maybe just by way of winding up to say if you'd like to learn more about someone dies again which is SDA which is a brilliant show four more performances in San Francisco at Z Space and then it will be six performances in this space that we're in in Santa Rosa at The Imaginous Home and you can go to their website and learn about that the Krimach play unfortunately has sort of finished its run but maybe we'll cajole you to bring the streaming version back the streaming version is done too but maybe we'll convince them to bring it back at some point in the future and in terms of learning about CITD's work you can go to our website which is just CITD.US and learn a little bit more about the linkages project and about the work that we're doing now in Ukraine and we'll continue to do throughout that region thanks so much for tuning in thank you bye father bye Lisa