 Welcome to Tisgy sour sorry for the slight delay, but I think you got to enjoy is it our new soundtrack That's on there at the moment by 65 days of static literally today today years old Yeah, so we didn't go five minutes late purely by accident. That was also I mean we can make up a post facto reason there We are not yet in our new studio, but we will be soon But we are already ramping up our output because when politics speeds up so do we There'll be more and more Tisgy Sours. I think we'll probably do about a free a week until a general election at which point I imagine they will be nightly. I'm here with Aaron Bustani. What's up? How you doing? Just for viewers out there by the way am I in focus we've had a conversation about am I in focus Michael? I am I can see my face on this Michael's crystal clear as ever just feedback very very welcome But other than that if I'm in focus all's good Someone's asked if the delay was because you were putting on makeup, but that only took about a minute We're gonna talk about three things today First of all the Queen's speech or the Queen being forced to preview the Tory party manifesto second Reported beef at the top of the Labour Party and even a potential divide between Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonald That's why I was here, right? Yeah, people just love the gossips. We always promise gossip on this show And I don't know if we you know come up with the goods as often as we should in the early days We used to Before this was actually broadcast like when we used to just a podcast and tiskey it was actually very funny anyway and Finally which some people according to some sources is the source of the beef between Corbyn and McDonnell Whether or not Labour should seek a second referendum before or after a general election And I think me and Aaron have slightly different positions on that. So, you know, maybe we'll tease out some so somebody's saying I'm not in focus. Oh really? Yeah You carry a Michael cut the camera to Michael. I'll I'll I'll I think James who's it's James Fox, isn't it? James Fox who's filling in for Gary tonight. I Said look, let's do autofocus James and his infant wisdom said let's do manual But look here's the thing if you go to sport. Donovarami.com You can help us have the hardware where this kind of thing isn't really a technical issue Because Michael doesn't need any help. I need all the help The problem is what's happening now is the audience are disagreeing as to whether or not you're in focus Well, no, but now it's like in the blue dress purple dress. No, that was already happening But anyway, you look great now. I can see you up on the screen. Thank you, Michael Um, we're going to start by talking about the queen's speech and this is this is technically difficult because we just got James in here to refocus the cameras and now I'm going to ask him to put on a clip So we are really putting James Fox through the motions today We're going to start with the queen's speech a little clip of it. She got all dressed up It would be a shame to let that effort go unnoticed Obviously, this wasn't a particularly usual queen's speech Normally the point of this is the prime minister puts down into writing his legislative legislative agenda For the next session of parliament. These are laws that will be passed over the following year usually This time around that's not what it's doing because Boris Johnson doesn't have a majority And he is in fact calling for election as soon as possible So we know none of these laws will go into being before that election So it was really a propaganda exercise. We're just going to watch the first minute of that now My lords and members of the house of commons My government's priority has always been To secure the united kingdom's departure from the european union on the 31st of october My government intends to work towards a new partnership with the european union Based on free trade and friendly cooperation My ministers will work to implement new regimes for fisheries agriculture and trade Seizing the opportunities that arise from leaving the european union An immigration bill ending free movement will lay the foundation for a fair modern and global immigration system My government remains committed to ensuring that resident european citizens Who have built their lives in and contributed so much to the united kingdom have the right to remain The bill will include measures that reinforce this commitment Boris Johnson's smug face in the audience is really something to witness there, isn't it? Also, I mean that outfit I mean, what is she doing there? You know for I think I i'm a republican, but if we're going to have a monarchy, I think we should do it with just a little bit more taste Look, it's 2019. Let's turn it down. Let's go for a sort of more sober palette. Get rid of the Get rid of the big hefty stones. What we should do is what if you what's really interesting a lot of people don't know this Is that most of the crown jewels only date back to child's second? Because all of a cromwell melted No pretty much everything Yeah, and they sold off the jewels and they melted all the metals And they said that basically the jewels of the crown is the technical name for the crown jewels These were, you know, obsessed only by people that are stupid enough to fall for superstition 350 years later They're still pulling the same old tricks The contents of the speech Nothing was particularly surprising as I say, none of these things will be going into law, but it was a panoply a bizarre selection of populist policies and I say that in the in the Projorative sense of of just a politician who is picking out of a hat random policies The only fred running through them is that he thinks they'll be popular It doesn't seem to be any vision or any anything else that links them together Obviously the first was was brexit. So that is, you know, the raison d'etre of this government The queen has to stand up and say we will be leaving or the the priority in this government is is to leave on the 31st of october Even though we all know that's that's not going to happen He didn't manage to get her to say get brexit done. I think that probably would have been You know veering into constitutional crises if you were just giving her the slogan of the Tory party general election I'm sure her advice has got rid of some problematic lines. Yeah, probably. I mean, it's always in negotiation, right? She has I'm watching the queen at the moment. I'm quite late to it. But it's great, isn't it? Well, she's she's cool in it, isn't she Claire Foy. Yeah Also, she's like she's dropped a gorgeous and like so what's his name for prince philip The guy that plays with the beard. He's quite handsome. You're like, give me a fucking break It wasn't like this and princess mark. Although she actually was quite attracted in real life, apparently They have a heartbreaker the end. So these populist policies have got the end of freedom of movement for EU citizens We knew this already paves the way for a points based immigration system Surprisingly says irish citizens will generally be able to enter and live freely in the uk So I thought that was always going to be guaranteed I thought people who lived in ireland or irish people would have special status in terms of freedom of movement in the uk That precedes a governorship anyway. Um, but we're just saying they generally will so i'm not sure what is outside of that Uh, a financial services bill which will simplify the process By which overseas investment funds can be solved in the uk So financial deregulation is what the conservative party thinks this country needs in the year 2019 A sentencing bill which would make the usual release date for people convicted of violent or sexual offenses two-thirds instead of half The sentence now this is this is veering into that kind of populist policy where to be honest as someone without expertise in in uh A sentencing law this sounds entirely reasonable and I assume that's exactly why they chose it. Yeah, uh, and there's a few of these really Um So we've also got a foreign national offenders bill So obviously populism you go hard on crime you go hard on migration Populism squared is you go hard on criminal migrants How about criminal migrant nonces criminal migrant nonces who well? And this is goes on criminal migrant nonces who hit a body and haven't told their courts where they've where they've done it That's that's one of the later crimes Uh in uh in borris johnson's priorities for britain It's going to make it harder for criminals to get parole if they don't disclose where they have buried their victim Um, there is I mean it is named it's named after someone it's called helens law So presumably like there is a background here where there was a criminal who didn't You know say where his victim was buried but the idea that this is in You know the priority of government at this period in time is bizarre electioneering and longer sentences for animal abusers Which will again is is chosen. It's a bit to be honest like when labor goes will let People who rent have pets in the house although I do really back that policy That's an important policy because also, you know, there's a correlation between having a pet and enhanced mental well-being Happiness life expectancy. So why should you be denied that and new charges on single use plastics? I was wondering if you had any You know given that the running fred here is is whatever bizarre niche issue Is very difficult to disagree with so the fact that if you kill someone and you don't tell the courts Where you've buried the victim then you're not going to get parole Uh, any other examples any other hypothetical examples that you think labor could outflank the Tories on Similar policies. I think labor could do something like set up sanctuary cities for badges Oh kind of like the opposite of badger culls. Yeah, that's really good A nice dividing line there. They cull the badgers. We set up sanctuary cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I mean, it's kind of it's kind of stupid and it it's it's identity politics I don't mean identity politics in the sort of pejorative sense used against the left But like right wing identity politics Appropriated from the u.s. And just the most you know, it's kind of like nra style politics But obviously we don't have that social base here. So We see we see glimpses it right? Do you remember what's his name? The farmer tony martin when he shot those burglars in the back Yeah, that was kind of and the Tories were trying to create a law whereby you could shoot people in the back If they broke into your property kind of thing that's different though because that's the culture wars That's when it's like a divisive issue, which is what you have in the united states over the nra Whereas the fact that You know people who are pedophiles or violent criminals shouldn't be able to get out on 50% of the time But they should wait for the 66% that's not a cultural divide running for britain No, that is just they've noticed something in the legal system that looks odd and they're saying we're going to correct it but Not based on what is a priority for the country, but what they think will sell well in the daily express I think the thing about like dead bodies is clearly they've done some focus groups and they're like this is the one This is a good wedge issue I mean, but a wedge issue doesn't the other party have to disagree Presumably we're going to put that in our manifesto or are we going to have leaders debates where we're saying no Actually, we should let them out after 50% of the time and no actually parole shouldn't be affected by whether or not you reveal the location of the person you killed well the thing is The thing is sort of neoliberal counter-revolution has been successful over the last 40 40 years precisely because it's made The center left the center the left's obviously been dead and buried for the best part of the last 40 years Obsess over quite trivial things You know, so for instance at milliband his he couldn't really have a propositional offer Well, he arguably could have he didn't he chose not to Because it was about oh, he's in, you know, alex salmon's pocket They they do triviality very very well another one was the 1992 general election campaign about some kids ear Do you know this? Oh, I've seen it sort of in articles, but I didn't actually know what the reference 1992 there's a labor Election ad and it's about this kid or they picked up on a story about this kid having an ear infection or something And he had to wait in that hospital for ages. Basically the Tories found out it's kind of like a bogus story And so they just went to town on like this ear. It's like utterly trivial Mad story 13 years of thatcherism deindustrialization destroyed public services A war against working class people and the Tories succeeded in 1992 Precisely because they made the talking point this kid's ear You know that that's what they do. So we should be wary of like these kind of nutty seemingly Microscopic unimportant issues. That's that's what they're going to try and do pin us down on that stuff rather than have that bigger picture Talking about wages talking about popular prosperity You know, the stuff really gets people energised. I was like the Ed Miliband thing So he had a visor which was David Axelrod over from the Obama campaign Or I think he was chief strategist for Obama and he you know in his damning I mean to be honest when you get strategists who who work on a losing campaign always They have to write a book after which which says I gave them great advice and everything they did was shit But his version of that was to say that they basically said vote labor get a microwave because all of their policies were so piecemeal and uninspiration or that people like well life could be Very marginally better with Ed Miliband or I will you know, not take the risk given that all the tabloids are telling me There is a risk and I'll I'll keep with the status quo I think it's probably going to be harder for the conservative party to win on on single-use plastics and animal abuse against the labor force stuff. Well, but also Where the stories be successful in terms of a big story is fund the NHS hang nonces And it's kind of this is kind of hinting at that But they didn't really go to town on it and I guess we're going to talk about that over the course of the show Why didn't they go to town? Why wasn't there more in this queen's speech? Are they holding back some really big policies for a general election announcement? quite soon Probably do you think they will be I think that it's strange to have talked about so little and made it such an unexciting Broadly vacuous speech given we could have a we could have a general election this year I actually I inclined think we might not we could I mean the other possibility is they're not exactly sure what kind of election they're going to be fighting at this point, right? So so do they fight the populist general election campaign of get Brexit done? Or do they fight that we've done Brexit already now? We're actually a fairly liberal party. You can just vote for us. It's a fine A reassuring election campaign. They don't quite know what they're going to do is the existential threat to them, right? That's that's the existential threat. Yeah, they need to win over wavering quote soft soft stories from the Lib Dems Sure, you know, they would want to take some They'd want to win some unionist seats off maybe lay but they're not they've lost all the seats in scotland, you know, so It's the brexit party. They need to they need to get those people back They've just got nine percent in the european election. I know it's a low tanner unimportant election, but they've got nine percent brexit party got mid thirties Those the voters they need to win back The hang nonces one is interesting actually because the golden spot for the conservative party hang nonces wouldn't be a good one Because I don't think it's quite popular enough So I think people would no it's my 20% too many people would find that a horrific policy proposal but at the other end of the spectrum you've got You know people shouldn't get parole if they don't tell the courts where they buried their victim that's At the other end of the spectrum because it's not going to become a wedge issue because the labor party are obviously going to agree so that so they need to find this one policy which is Really attuned with the country at large, but which the labor party can in no way Agree with it and that's a proper wedge issue and I don't think any of these are are that No, no, I think also the people are saying what's a nonce in the comments, which is interesting Somebody's written and because if you hung the nonces you'd got the Tory party No comment Although there wasn't amazing is a pedophile. There was an amazing story. Is that a British thing? Yeah, I think so there was an amazing story and I did a sort of twitter video And I got like 100,000 views last not earlier this year About a Tory councillor who was under investigation for sexual abuse of children sexual assault inappropriate touching etc And while he was an under investigation Not only was he not suspended by the Conservative Party. He was promoted to deputy mayor And where was the media coverage? Well, that should be in the labor party manifesto that if a sitting councillor Is convicted of noncery is charged with is charged with they can't get promoted to be deputy mayor because normally the party will either have to Oppose it or be accused of hypocrisy I think that could be our wedge issue. There you go You can have that one for free Seamus Uh, should we move on to gossip speaking of labor party staffers? Uh, so trouble at the top of labor. This has been The explosive story which is spreading You know, it's causing lots of debates and arguments on twitter. It's hit the pages of the sunday times The squawk box is obviously covering it in detail Covering it it is the Uh purported division between Jeremy Corbyn and john mcdonnell or to be more specific some Specific staffers around Jeremy Corbyn and john mcdonnell so to talk through the narrative of what happened last week Carrie murphy who has been Corbyn's chief of staff since 2016 was moved out of the leader's office and into party hq That was widely seen as a demotion. She was the boss of the leader's office and now I'm not sure she's head of digital campaigns or something in hq She she was the chief of staff and now she's got a temporary a temporary job Yeah, in any case, she's got a lot less power head of digital for the jim full coming general election campaign She was close to lemakloski. Well, she still is close to lemakloski um and I suppose the first impression everyone had of Carrie murphy was that she got Jeremy Corbyn's office in order in 2016 Yeah, all looked a bit hopeless and a bit of a mess. Yeah, she sort of got it all together Cut down on the number of leaks cut down on the number of people in that office who were I mean quite openly trying to bring down. Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn For the first year, there were people literally on the labor payroll working Corbyn's office trying to get rid of him as the labor leader Kind of amazing and then he did some because obviously Jeremy Corbyn's good at a lot of things Getting rid of people who are trying to undermine him from the inside is not one of them So you kind of needed a brutal boss to get in there and get rid of some of these people get the house in order But since then she's rubbed a few people up the wrong way I think partly this has to do with With the romaine issue So there were lots of people in the shadow cabinet who've been pushing for labor to adopt a more Romani position for a while and people have seen the resistance as coming from I suppose her faction in the leader's office The tom watson fiasco So trying to get rid of tom watson, but failing that was also blamed on or choosing not to right Well choosing not to well, it wasn't her. It was it's Corbyn and mcdonnell the next day It was a failure. I mean there was a majority in the nc to get rid of him No, but it was a failure because it was supposed to happen in one go, right? It was supposed to happen in one foul swoop Yeah, or in any way it was a failure because if you look at how it turned out that obviously wasn't a successful move Yeah, and I'm also saying this isn't I'm not necessarily saying these are all bad things These are what some of the beef is about and the other purported beef is between her and Not necessarily beef between her and andrew fischer But that carry murphy's been somewhat blamed for andrew fischer's departure Which happened at the labor party conference very dramatically On saturday On saturday at labor party conference about three weeks ago now So then she has since then for a For these reasons or others depending on who you believe on the internet She was pushed out thanks to the efforts of john mcdonnell. So apparently he was At the end of his tether At at these various elements of her management of that office and she has now been pushed over into hq There's been lots of briefing against john mcdonnell because of this. So the squawk box, which is a An online Magazine quite close to carry murphy has been briefing that john mcdonnell is trying to isolate jeremy corbin And he's either trying to get rid of him or control him I don't know what you think about all of this drama are and what should what should our audience believe people love drama us included I think first it's important to say that navara We don't bullshit our listeners We're entirely clear about what's going on. We don't you know, we don't give you the spin Uh, and so first thing is when carry murphy entered jeremy corbin's office. It was in dire straits It was a shambles. He was in big trouble the people that she replaced weren't doing a very good job She came in she Steadyed the ship 2016 with the chicken coup Had she not been there jeremy corbin Probably would have caught we can't say definitely probably in my estimation Uh, and then like you say what's been brought into question recently is sort of the management style Not just of her of the of the team more generally, which is in andrew fishers You know alleged a letter of Let us now become proof because or there was a This to be honest was where I fought fucking out because squawk box in a obviously when carry murphy got moved There were lots of counter briefings to try and say why this was a bad thing to happen and and blaming it on On on other people in the organization, which you know, you know It makes sense There's a bit of power struggle going on people brief their various organizations to be honest I think this is a very unprofessional thing to do and it's a sign of someone who's lost perspective of what really matters but anyway squawk box in a Supposed proof of why carry was put carry murphy was pushed out for political reasons published the entirety Of andrew fishers resignation letter No squawk box did yeah, we don't know who's responsible because bear in mind. We don't know who's responsible I suppose but she's close. Yeah. Yeah, we don't know exactly who I think got squawk box It's four four people have been published that four or five people have moved sideways They will have political associates. They'll have friends etc etc So it is it's a bit more complicated than just one person. Yeah. Yeah. No, no I should be a whole a whole faction's been sidelined a faction has been sidelined and In a dramatic cell phone they released the whole of andrew fishers Quite excortiating resignation letter which was decrying Basically, he didn't mention anyone by name, but he was decrying the management of the leader's office. He said it was dysfunctional office Yeah, and I think you know the reality is I mean You know Blair's office was dysfunctional when it came to gordon brown. You read any history of new labor The question is, you know, is politics at the top level? Is there is there an inherent sort of dysfunctionality to it? possibly You know, you know, where does the buck stop with john and jeremy or the fact that they're left-wing politicians and the fact that that's just what modern politics looks like now People say oh allister camber great spin doctor How long will allister camber last in world where there's twitter and mobile phones and ubiquitous phone cameras? Much more challenging environment now so I don't know Anyway, as I was saying She was invaluable those the criticisms put forward by um, andrew fisher Uh, and then the claiming is in squawk box that because the composite around that brexit position Was one composite 13 one One of them was 13 and one of them was 14 So one of them was the leadership position Which was that we won't well, we'll back a second referendum But labor party the labor party won't take a position until a special conference Which one overwhelmingly negotiations one overwhelmingly But then there's been criticism videos online and people say well not all the delegates in the room And necessarily can have a vote that's true Although the only clp's that send lots of people to the conference are from london Which tend to be more remaining anyway um And that put a lot of noses out of joint the fact that vote went that way it surprised a lot of people um Kirsten would have been surprised john mcdonald may have been surprised People like ball mason clive lewis and look it's a democratic party. They're allowed to they're allowed to argue their corner A lot of people were surprised And the claim in squawk boxes that that then led to Carrie murphy being pushed out Do we know if that's true or not? I don't know I mean, I think the thing that is a bit ridiculous Is this idea that this is a silent coup So there are obviously lots of people briefing that this is a silent coup and obviously a coup would be to get rid of jeremy corbin No one's getting rid of jeremy corbin here. Someone's getting someone's maneuvered against a staff member And ultimately you do have to remember that it is jeremy corbin who is in charge of the people in his office So if he didn't want this to happen, he could say no Yeah, I mean it's kind of patronizing to say that oh, they're just trying to control him or they're trying to remove him because he knows What's going on And if you get into this language, so where was this quote? There was a quote from a source in the squawk box Oh, so this was from wednesday. This isn't the squawk box, right? This is someone that's briefed them There are only two potential reasons for wanting to connive to remove her her being murphy First so they can isolate and destroy jeremy, which i mean given that they're talking about mcdonald was a slightly Ridiculous idea second so they can control him We won't have long to wait to discover which of these motivations were behind this redeployment So this idea that either you're out there to destroy or control him and that he doesn't have any agency in this I mean you can easily flip that around. Maybe he was trying to rescue jeremy corbin from the control of carry murphy That's what I don't think that was true either but what i'm saying is if you're going to use this city language whereby you can Overthrow jeremy corbin in a coup without actually getting rid of jeremy corbin But getting rid of who is supposed to be the real leader behind the throne and I think you're in kind of dangerous and Stupid territory. Yeah, and this and this there's this review that's going into the leader's office team overseen by bob curse lake who was one of the top dogs in the civil service until a few years ago was retired Close to john mcdonald He's overseeing this review of her team But the review has been commissioned by both like you said jeremy corbin and john mcdonald So the idea that it's just being imposed on jeremy corbin is Isn't true and look at the thing is if you think he's if you think as a personality and I don't think that That he would be bossed around to do this Then he shouldn't be the prime minister, you know because you can get bigger challenges than john mcdonald saying you should change your chief of staff You're gonna have the deep state in the establishment to come up against you So, you know, yeah, I agree with you. Although we should probably talk about some of the other things that john mcdonald Yeah, so we're gonna talk about the more what I so I think this gossip is a bit silly But yeah, this interview is there was some I think legitimate critiques of john mcdonald from this So it was quite an unfortunate coincidence I think actually where all of this briefing was going against john mcdonald Which I think was somewhat unreasonable about him being a centrist and him being there to undermine the corbin project when two days later An interview was released of him having, you know, a long friendly chat with alistair cambell Which is pissed off quite a lot of people So we're going to show a brief clip of that before discussing the politics of going on While this conversation Is tony blair a war criminal? No, no Say something positive about tony Oh, I just think what he did in northern islandy I'll just always extoll what he did there and I think he'll go down in history for that And I'm hoping and I said this previously I'm hoping he goes down in history for that rather than iraq because that sealing that deal Which is actually now under threat a bit. I have to say it was just magnificent Something positive about gordon I actually think when you look back on it, he tackled child poverty He redistributed wealth and income and a scale that we've not seen before He put the investment into our public services. I know work with tony as well That really transformed people's lives and in my constituency, you know, we talk about sure start centers But it wasn't just that it was right the way across our schools in london We're seeing some of the worst in the country the london challenge that he funded Transform them So I think you saw there at the beginning of the clip John mcdonnell when asked the question is tony blair a war criminal. He says he says no Other bits from the interview which which pissed people off. He said camber was welcomed back in the party He said he opposed his his expulsion because of his backing of the lib dems in the european elections He said the attempt to remove tom wassen was a fiasco And he said he and corbin would resign if labor lose the next general election What did you think about the controversy around this? Through those one at a time and okay, we'll do them. We'll do them one at a time Is tony blair a war criminal? Yes, or is alas the camber a war criminal as well as the big question tony blair is Absolutely a war criminal There is definitely an argument That he actively he and a certain advisor who is now baroness in the house of lords and jonathan powell and alas the camber actively misled cabinet to go to war To the extent that they wouldn't even give the legal they didn't want to give the legal advice of the attorney general at the time To the cabinets they could make an informed decision So there is a huge argument there that tony tony blair is a is a war criminal. Yes And it's a war criminal because it's a war of aggression, right? Yeah, and he didn't and he's you know He was a democratic Uh leader and he didn't want his cabinet to be in full receipt of the legal arguments for war Why because he knew that that legal argument was compromised Uh, I suppose we'll we'll go on to the big picture in a moment. Let's go through them one by one Yeah, alas the camber should he be welcomed back in the party? Uh, I think in jon's defense the thing that alas the camber was actually expelled for Is something which was brought in by new labor this auto expulsion that was his answer, right? Yeah, the reason you got kicked out was because of the authoritarian policies implemented by tony blair And I suppose jon would say that he shouldn't have been expelled for that which is a fair answer Should alas the camber be in the labor party should somebody with alas the camber's used be in the labor party? Sure If it's a random person But alas the camber works for a lobbyist. He works for an organization which It's businesses interest is an interest representation For massive businesses organizations, etc And you know what organize that what's what's this? He works for various he works freelance communications kind of consulting for all sorts of brands and businesses and organizations and You you do have to wonder when he says certain things Is it his view or is it him trying to advance a certain interest? He's been paying being paid to advance And that's a that's a question more broadly for lobbying in modern politics I mean you can say that about so many parts you can say about lots of people um But I do think that does that does bring into question Quite a lot of his intentions normally speaking Personally, I wouldn't like to see him in the labor party But you have to have rules and yes, I've broken one of the rules not being the labor party Do I think the rule that he broke should apply? Probably not. He absolutely was back in the liberal democrats though Let's be real I mean according to the rules of the labor party. He should have been kicked out. Yes Although, I mean, I suppose the argument he makes is that we always made reasonable exceptions But I mean It seems like if you have a rule then obviously the most powerful people in the party still have to be He goes he goes. What's it? He fucking know it was and he goes, but it was gladly applied No, it's literally called auto expulsion. There is no that's the point There is no ability to say. Oh, let's apply a bit of context here or a bit of thought take a bit of initiative It's literally automatic expulsion. You know that because it was implemented when your guy was in charge Said the attempt to remove tom watson was a fiasco. It was a fiasco. I mean it was a fiasco That's fine. Yeah, I mean it was he Either do it or don't do it. Yeah, fine. I mean obviously there's disagreement between John McDonald and probably, you know, other people in the labor party because he was one of the first people sort of pushing against the idea of Removing this position to be honest. I thought the whole thing was a fiasco because I don't really see the point of removing Tom Watson's position as deputy leader of the labor party because it doesn't have much constitutional power The problem that the labor left has is the constitution of the plp It's the fact that the plp has only about 10 percent of its makeup who are genuinely Pro the leadership and pro the project that the membership want to embark upon And that one means that when they're in government, it's going to be pretty fucking fragile To it means that there's not that many people to go out On tv and make the argument for why a labor government would be a good thing Which I think has been a real problem for the project, but tom watson I mean the only power he really has is to go on radio four every now and again to sort of Contradict the leadership, but I don't even think he has that much credibility He's the deputy leader, right? That's why it's my donald's line of just oh tom is tom. He says what he wants. That's fine I think that's good. There was a rule change that mattered at the n.e.c. before Um conference, but it had nothing to do with getting rid of the position Which was to say if and when uh the the leader resigns It the deputy won't become the acting leader because if he became the acting leader that would give him a lot of constitutional real power, but they've said If if a leader resigns the acting leader will now be decided by the n.e.c Right, so the the only real constitutional power that he had Was taken away from him, but yet there was this fight which I don't think Gains that much other than the fact that you don't have this annoying guy tom watson appearing on the radio every now and again I would I would say that look The labor party should be a party of socialists in parliament not a parliamentary party, right? It's about the 500 000 members it's not just about 300 people in parliament circa 300 not the moment, but if you're in government obviously 330 plus people And I think a big step towards achieving that is I think we'll be getting rid of the deputy leader Because that role of deputy leader necessarily emphasizes how it is a it is a parliamentary party You've got the leader in parliament. You've got the deputy. That's why I thought the general secretary should be elected personally There's a good argument for and against fine But if we're serious about this being a party in parliament short, but more more more over something that's embedded in everyday communities, you know A vibrant organic thing that's in society like the italian pc i back in the day Then you know, I think getting rid of the deputy leader is It's healthy, but that wasn't why they were getting rid of it. They were getting rid of it because they don't like tom watson The final one said he and corbin would resign if labor lose the next general election I know this one pissed you off Just a dumb thing to say, isn't it something to say the tories have basically been on election footing for 10 weeks Right, the tories have arguably actually since the summer with borris's, you know borris's campaign borris johnson's campaign to win the Tory leadership They've been on election footing as have the brexit party the brexit party are choosing all their candidates and the shadow chance the ex jecker is happily Moving the political terrain for the labor party onto the defensive about who should be the successor jeremy corbin at the precise moment Everybody else is gearing up for general election following day. Jeremy Corbyn speaking to sophie rodin's guide that with it very well But then you hear jess philips talking to lbc about i'd like to be the leader and i'd be on strictly I mean it's quite funny But that's not the conversation we should be having said she wants to be the first Leader to be on strictly. She wants to be the first ex prime minister to be on strictly It's like she's planning so far in advance that she now wants to be a kooky strictly contestant who's also been prime minister It's just another sort of opportunity to have a good chapter in her next book I mean fine in a way. Good luck to her. Obviously. I hope that never happens because it'll be a political catastrophe for the country But I mean in a way. Good luck to her. It's quite funny. You know, I get that I get the vibes that she's on self promotion being a celebrity and doing some good along the way That's probably what she thinks great fine um So no, I was very I was very um, I was very pissed off. You expect better from johnson is a very sharp person What do you think is going on here then so I think yeah, I think you're totally right there. I I imagine he'd probably admit that the whole Getting drawn into that question of a post-election leadership race was was a mistake I think we often talk on this show about message discipline So when you get asked that question, you should pivot away to say no I think we're gonna win the next general election and because Of the wealth inequality that exists in Britain because x y z and people are pissed off at the levels of poverty Blah blah blah blah instead of sort of taking the question In good faith and giving alistair camber exactly what he wants, but leave that aside. I mean I think of john mcdonald was someone who's generally got, you know, good strategy good tactics He's generally a very good performer people fuck up every now and again Yeah, of course Do you think these divisions and I think there are some differences between Corbyn and mcdonald. Do you think they are tactical? Yeah, or political and I think this is this is where you're getting real contentious Disagreement at the moment whereby people are saying I suppose we'll get on to the second referendum general election question in a moment, but The fact that john mcdonald, for example, would have an interview with alistair camber And I can't imagine Jeremy Corbyn would is that a political difference or a different tactical style It's both, isn't it? It's both I think like for instance, Jeremy Corbyn on politics when it comes to foreign policy I think it's Right now is more militant than john mcdonald And I think because of alistair camber's role and the second rark war he would never do an interview with him That then bleeds into The style of politics and how you comport yourself with people who john might say you have to win some of these people over And there were people saying he shouldn't go on gq. That's a that's a silly argument He should go on absolutely everything to start with But secondly gq. What's their average audience 35 to 65 year old men? That's exactly who labor needs to win So I can see I can see the argument for speaking to alistair camber. I think he probably should have Right, you're the shadow chancellor. You should absolutely speak to This figure and have that confrontation and you know, ideally speak to people you otherwise can't reach But what where the mistake was I think with him is that john has been doing these very jocular events With the times he did a great. It's a great podcast match Surely from the times with john mcdonald when he's talking to a business audience And john is phenomenal And he's this but his style was exactly the same very uh sardonic Jocular I'm using lots of big words fine very laid back um and self-effacing But also quite sharp and to the point um really really good um And I think basically what and that's just been his autopilot. I reckon for a couple of months Talking to the bank of england's the cbi to all the business sort of big wigs and all of a sudden that political style Was transplanted into a conversation around internal left politics So you can't go. Yeah, you know look we'll tell we'll be honest about what we want to nationalize You know, and I'm happy to you know talk to so and so about the future of the british economy, you know, it's You know, we need to win win them over. That's great All of a sudden you're talking to alas the camera about whether or not you're going to resign as shadow chancellor if you That's not jocular anymore. It's a very concrete political question. So You know, and I think john became He's become rightly obsessed with hegemonizing Sort of the british business class with labor's offer And there is clearly a large part of the british sort of industrial interest finance interests Not finance, maybe the british capitalist class clearly a lot of them are like this is actually quite Good, there's probably better than no deal. We see that sort of percolating through the financial times coverage, etc So I get it. It's not a stupid thing to do But the worry is that becomes his default and then he applies that to conversations with the lid dems or alas the Campbell All of a sudden before you know it your own government and it's talking about, you know From some foreign policy decision, you know, you can't you can't have that softness with those kinds of decisions because that's where your base is at Right, this is not about a compromise to people you need to run over These are actually the reasons why the people that voted you in in the first place got behind you and jeremy So he needs to have I think a few kind of um firewalls in place Yeah, I mean that's what's important about the relationship to the base. I think because I really respect this idea of being You know your policy and your policy because I assume when he's going into these meeting with bankers, you know, he's He's being very polite. Obviously. I haven't seen any of these meetings But what I imagine is and what I imagine was going on with alas the Campbell Actually, he's being very polite But you know with with quite a an understanding of that he's not compromising anything material in that interview with alas the Campbell There was no material concessions really no about policy or anything Yeah, well, I mean, I suppose you could say are you going to prosecute? But I mean no one really thinks I'm going to prosecute Tony Blair in the hay So given that a labor government is not going to Indite Tony Blair for war crimes. Then what's the point in Suggesting you might do it might be a root. Yeah, but there might be a sort of there might be a far more critical inquiry as to as to Arear Yeah, that probably would happen And but I mean, I think you're right Which is that this wasn't a conversation happening in private where you might as well be polite about everything as long as you're not Shifting on your policy positions because for the base to see someone say Oh, no Tony Blair's not a war criminal is a bit of a red line, isn't it? I mean that was such a key driver of the Corbyn movement, which was opposition to the Iraq war and opposition to That particular element of the Tony Blair government I think absolutely as a labor party politician You have to say that Tony Blair did a lot of good things sure start centers Reducing poverty, etc. But you can't compromise on Iraq really you can't even compromise You know in a performative way on Iraq. It's it's a red line But also there was the thing where he said He said, you know, I really want Tony to be remembered for his work in Ireland Not for Iraq hate to break it to you. He's going to be remembered for Iraq And he should be remembered for yeah, because hundreds of thousands of people died He destabilized he helped he contributed to a war which massively destabilized the region Even today we're seeing its aftereffects with You know Afghanistan Iraq are still basically failed states Obviously you had the emergence of ISIS in in in Syria So of course he's going to be remembered for that not not Ireland Of course he is You know, I hope he's remembered for the Good Friday Agreement Well, he ain't going to be remembered for that believe me in 100 years time He's gonna be remembered for one thing and one thing only I think one thing that was really interesting in the interview I think one thing that infuriated people. I think reasonably is that there is very much a Moral duplicity in saying as he did that he'd never I don't know that wasn't in the clip actually He said he'd never be able to Forgive or be friends of a conservative because of the pain they inflicted in austerity But he didn't show the same attitude towards Tony Blair and obviously Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell in fact have caused Probably more damage on a utilitarian level. Yeah, for sure to the people of Iraq then The conservatives ever did to the people of of britain's in 2010. You can see a sort of moral duplicity there But at the same time from a strategic level, it's so obvious what mcdonnell is trying to do Which is he's realized or he's decided realized it's maybe too much He's decided that labor can only have a winning coalition If the insurgent force of Corbinism is combined with a sort of middle-class liberalism And he thinks that's the only way you're going to get a majority in britain possibly and so he's trying to win over The middle-class liberals who might have some attachment to the labor isn't that, you know, I mean, I that's what I don't get Yeah, I mean, we've had this discussion before on tiskey. Actually, that's what what you're more than bill Like you're not you're not reaching out to liberals. You're rehabilitating somebody who until Brexit Alistair Campbell was done. Yeah, Alistair Campbell was not in in the public conversation What I will be interested to see though is if mcdonnell speaks of the people's vote campaign because I actually think that probably would be worth it Oh, for sure He's far less is being compromised and and that is a movement that you do want to have some attachment to even if Alistair Campbell is a figure who I kind of agree is irrelevant fundamentally. He spoke at the um Defend democracy demo or I think we should call it demand democracy and he went down really really well Of course, you should speak that it's like a policy All right, let's do the substantive. We'll finish on this and then we'll go to questions I want to I want to hear your gossipy questions as well Um, I want to hear where you sit on the great divide of 2019 that between Some staffers in the leaders of the opposition's office and the shadow chancellor um We are going to go to say something's but here as a disabled person living on benefits Fuck you for that comment michael about austerity in iraq. I mean Inarguable, sorry. Yeah. Well, I mean you could also equally have someone in the comments saying as an iraqi whose parents were killed in the war Fuck you for saying austerity was worse. I mean, we used we used our armed forces used depleted uranium against feluja You need to google anybody should google this depleted uranium. Yeah, that doesn't make austerity any less No, they're both evil. The point is, you know, we used depleted uranium against civilian populations Now their children have birth defects like you see in shinobal You know, but we the thing is shinobal was a complete disaster feluja We chose to do that or our political leaders chose to do that All right, second referendum or general election first So one of the big tactical disagreements other than do we want to appeal to liberals or is is alistair cambell's a useful Audience to be speaking to the big one basically is about a second referendum And lots of this dispute is being framed through this Uh prism And so there is now agreement across the labor party that there will be a second referendum I mean, it's embraced with varying degrees of enthusiasm Uh, but the debate is should the labor party push for a general election first and a second referendum afterwards Or a second referendum first and a general election Afterwards what's being briefed Is that again people like john mcdonald keir starmer emily formbury They're all pushing for a second referendum first and people like ian lavery John trick it and carry murphy So one of the lenses that this has been viewed through is that mcdonald pushed her to the side because he wanted a second Referendum first how true that is i'm not entirely sure But that that that frames This debate aran, what do you think? uh, I think That the idea you have a referendum before general election is completely bad shit. Why? Well, I think remain will absolutely win remain I will go on record to say remain can't lose If 16 to 18 year old 18 year olds have the vote and eu nationals have the vote Remain literally can't lose however Will you be able to extend and expand the franchise five six million people? With a government of national unity I don't think you can I don't think you'd have the numbers but b there's a really strong democratic argument So you shouldn't do that anyway put that to one side sod that could you do it? I don't think you could there's also this argument being made. Let's have a quick referendum in six weeks You definitely then can't add six million people to the electoral role And like from a purely pragmatic point of view if you have them on the electoral role, you will win Uh, but also surely want we want a considered debate about brexit People say well, we've been having that for three years. We haven't had that on a specific version of leave That's half the problem. So all of a sudden you're seeing these debates around. Let's have a referendum on borris's deal No, absolutely not. Why would you want to referendum without the things? I've just talked about extending the vote that would benefit you Why would you want to vote on deal? That's crap when the alternative at least is a leave deal which would be a labor leave deal Which let's be real. It's gonna be the softest of soft brexits It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's just it's the latest fixation in a series of fixations For the labor right parts of the sort of liberal establishment, which kind of there's like a van diagram going on here And they just you know, it was the at one point It was the european economic area Then it was a people's vote and then it's this and then it's that and they sort of and now they almost prefer Any kind of vote to actually stopping brexit they kind of they can't disassociate these two things That the fetish object has become the second referendum rather than actually stopping brexit Well, i'm not sure if that's there's this weird obsession with jonathan freedland just as we could about to see a new Jonathan freedland now wants a referendum people's vote was never meant to be about borris's deal or not It was about the ideal was to stop brexit apparently. Yeah, but that's still so i mean i'm sure that jonathan freedland thinks that to have Because i mean the argument from these people is that if you have a general election I mean this is the argument as tony blair keeps saying it whenever he appears on television If you have a general election, there'll be lots of issues in the mix These people obviously don't have that much faith in jeremy corbin to be able to win a general election And so they assume that borris junsch will get a stomping majority and then he'll be able to put through His fairly hard brexit deal without a second referendum So if that's your base assumption, which i don't think it is for for mcdonald or starma But i do think it is obviously for jonathan freedland it's still rational It's coherent They think the only way you're going to be able to stop brexit is if you do it before the general election And before in their minds borris johnson gets a stomping majority So you lose the first referendum you think that romaine parties would lose a gen another general election kind this is just ridiculous Well, i mean the polls suggest that There's at least a 50 50 chance that romaine would win i think probably 60 40 chance that romaine would win On another part of the clearly and especially when margin of error, but yeah, especially when with with borris johnson's deal It will all be spelled out how much damage that's going to do to the economy So i think there was but then you look at a general election showing that it would it would reduce Incomes by i think 2,500 pounds compared to labor. Yeah, no, that's just compared to the state's quote The ft the ft one. Yeah, that was based on a no deal brexit or a hard brexit Right, but that wasn't when this specific deal had been published We're talking about percentages and probabilities Let's just pluck a number out of my arse the point is if there was general election tomorrow The most likely outcome is another hung parliament Well, i mean that's very difficult to say. Well, no, we look at most of the polling you see for Depends how much faith you have in the ability of of both parties to to run a functional campaign It depends how that you know like what everyone's agreed is that it's completely unpredictable Most most poll most polling of some polling that indicate increasingly few polls show this labor being the largest party Some showing the Tories being the largest party Some showing the Tories have a slight majority But there's nothing which gives the Tories like this this big stonking majority they would need so If you're talking about probabilities in the most likely outcome They can't on the one hand say look if we have a general election won't change anything because we'll still have hung parliament Which is probably that's a stupid. I think that's a stupid right now They're saying that on the one hand, but then on the other hand they're saying well We don't want a general election because Boris Johnson could win it It just seems so it seems so strange to me. Do you why on earth? Are you you're gonna have a referendum? And they presumably this referendum happens with the government of national unity Well, that's the thing. Yeah, so so if if if it was possible to have if Boris Johnson said look I'll pass my deal if you have a second referendum and he said that his government was going to be willing to implement it I actually think that would be an ideal democratic outcome Because I don't think that I think the idea that labor's leave option is going to be more credible as a leave option Then Boris Johnson's leave option is a bit ridiculous. I think it would be better. I'd prefer a soft Brexit Northern Ireland Northern Ireland Well, I mean if you have a Northern Ireland only backstop I mean people in the Northern Ireland only backstop was quite popular in Northern Ireland And basically what Boris Johnson is coming back with now is Uh A hard brexit deal with a Northern Ireland backstop Northern Ireland's going to stay in the custom in the european customs union in the single market And so the reason I don't want that is because the reason Boris Johnson wants that is because he wants to have a bargain Basement Britain that can strike free trade deals with the united states, but that's definitely that's a credible option I mean if you want to have a hard brexit, I'm not saying it's not credible, but clearly It does jeopardize the good friday agreement because all the projections show that Northern Ireland all of a sudden become like you say Uh, it would see a massive decline in foreign direct investment. It would see a major The original backstop was going to be really good for this latest one Tom Kabbasi did some insta analysis on it on this latest one Yeah, and so basically, you know, and if you believe that economic dysfunction could lead therefore to sort of political Political breakdown of some kind and which perfectly perfectly possible So, I mean or the labor position was we leave the european union We stand the single market the whole of great britain and all of Ireland That literally changes nothing on the irish border nothing Yeah, but the argument the idea that there's so the idea that borris is offering the labor sort of brexit are the same thing No, they're not the same thing, but I'm saying you said you said there's no point, you know Well, the reason I think there's no difference because I actually think there is uh, I think it's healthier democratically For there to be a leave option, which is genuinely genuinely backed by levers and backed by the government against the remain option Which is genuinely backed by remainers and backed by the opposition And even though I think labor are absolutely right to go into the next general election saying we want to negotiate a soft brexit versus remain That's not exactly an ideal situation. I mean many people will see that second referendum as a complete farce I mean, I still think it's the right policy But you you have to recognize the downsides of it Which is that there'll be a very high abstention rate because many people will say what's the point in having a soft brexit Um, we just don't want to give this this vote legitimacy and that wouldn't be a problem I don't think if it was borris johnson's deal versus remain. I think then you'd get a very high um turnout Um, so I I do think that it's either going to be no deal borris's deal or a second referendum So you're making it that there will not be I mean it's increasing likely there's going to have to be a second referendum No So the question is do you have a second referendum before or after a general election? Right So I think if you had a second referendum before a general election where it was borris johnson as prime minister fighting for his hard brexit deal and the labor party as the opposition fighting for remain That would be a neat democratic outcome because then the people would have the people would have seen that well I do yeah, I mean, I don't think it will happen For one. I don't think there'll be the numbers in parliament So I think the idea that we split the movement based on this tactical question is a bit silly But I think that that would be a less damaging outcome than A second referendum afterwards and also you don't think it's morally bad to have a second referendum when EU Nationals aren't enfranchised and they're they're the ones directly affected You don't think that's well, I think if you if we're worrying about the the legitimacy of this second referendum to be honest I think changing the franchise is really fucking risky. I mean, I think why because if if there is a we want to give them a Vote in general election next time round. So yeah, but that's that's policy Yeah, no, no, I I'm in favor of 16 year olds any EU nationals getting the vote But I think if it looks like they're being enfranchised particularly Specifically to overturn a vote which happened two years ago on a different franchise Then there are rightly going to be or understandably going to be some people saying this looks a bit fishy And I think if it looks as if you're using EU nationals precisely to win A vote or overturn a vote from two years previously You're actually putting EU nationals in a fairly vulnerable position in the extent to which people are going to think you've been you've been used You know, you don't need to get that far. I just think they should have the vote What I'm saying is from the from a pragmatic perspective of some of these remain ultras I don't see why they'd prefer a referendum Which didn't include EU nationals to one that doesn't do the EU because well either from a Point of view or from an ethical so from the pragmatic point of view is because they don't think we'll get a referendum at all Unless we have it before a general election because they think that the most likely outcome of a general election Is the Tories get a stomping majority and then we leave so I mean you can disagree with that But it's coherent. I think to to pretend it's not We've said it's coherent in Korean because they say that on the one hand on the other hand They say we shouldn't have a general election because it will lead to another hung parliament Well, that's in it's incoherent if they use both of those positions But that's that's pointing a big mass and picking out two arguments and saying it's incoherent because both of these arguments Are coming from your big mass. I mean, I think you can have a very coherent argument I mean often the the thing it's like the hillary bends where they're on on tv and they're saying Oh, if we have a general election the outcome will be a hung parliament. What he really means is Well, this I don't want Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister Well, so he means even one of two things probably both Which is I don't want Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister Or I don't think Labour Party are going to win the next general election and probably the Tories will get a majority So there's two coherent positions there And there's an interesting debate about which one he means probably he would agree with both of those statements If he has no reason not to ask for a second referendum beforehand, but I do think there is a danger that So what does john mcdonnell want a referendum before the next general election then So we've worked out those guys. What about mcdonnell and starma? Well, I think probably on one level, they're worried that the Labour Party isn't in a particularly good shape to win a general election Because they think that Boris Johnson's got a clear a line a clear a line on brexit in the Labour Party do so So if if the dividing line in then in the forthcoming general election will be between leave and remain Boris Johnson is well placed to hegemonize the leave vote Where's was and the Labour Party is still incredibly divided on on the remain issue They're not they're not divided on the remain issue It's just that we always knew that the Tory party was more concrete around a particular EU outcome That was before 2016 then Labour was that's nothing new But they are they are divided and and I mean the the the noises you'll hear from them are different depending on who you're speaking to because some of them want to remain and some of them want to Leave that's completely legitimate. I'm not saying this is necessarily a critique. I'm just stating the fact And and so they think that if you have this referendum beforehand you get that I mean also to be honest, I think if Boris Johnson stays in This is why it won't happen because if Boris Johnson stays in government Puts a referendum to remain versus leave and the Labour Party are the main opposition arguing for remain He's the government arguing for leave. I think remain will win I think that will be a huge blow to Boris Johnson And a big relief to the Labour Party and many of the people who were I mean, I think that would increase Jeremy Corbyn's status as as a political leader Which is why it's not going to happen and That means which is why and I mean It's a tactical question for me It's not going to happen because Boris Johnson won't let it happen The only way it could happen is with a government of national unity and that is where you get into a very difficult Strategic question for the Labour Party because I do think that if you have a government of national unity Which isn't headed by Jeremy Corbyn. There is a real danger of a new You know national party which basically tries to usurp or outflank the Labour Party as as The opposition to Boris Johnson at the next general election. So I can see why There are people who are really suspicious of that option I mean, Jeremy Corbyn will get kicked out of the leaders of leader of the opposition office, for example He wouldn't have the same rights to ask questions at prime minister's questions You'd have Ken Clark versus Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn on the sideline. It wouldn't be Ken Clark Ken Clark or Harriet Harman or whoever Margaret Beckett whoever they're talking about. Why are they so obsessed with Margaret Beckett? but basically this one it's a It's a tactical question for me. It doesn't seem particularly political unless Unless you have what I think is not a particularly Coherent argument, which is that the people need to have a Labour leave option presented to them Because if Labour leave essentially means very soft Brexit the idea that the people The idea that the people literally really need to have a really soft Brexit put to them Versus remain which is marginally different. I think is a bit ridiculous I think if the people can have put to them a hard Brexit versus remain that is a democratically much more Neat outcome but again, it's all Neither here nor there because I think by Saturday we'll have a second referendum ruled out as an option and we'll be heading Straight towards a general election and then the whole relevant debate will be how we campaign in that and what our message is When it comes to Brexit and I think probably that's what the real disputes are about within the Labour Party at the moment This idea that it's about when we have a general election or a referendum. I think it's probably a distraction What's going on is that mcdonald wants to run a particular kind of general election campaign There are other people in the party who want to run a slightly more Levy campaign and a bunch of disagreements about management styles And that's what's going on the fight is about the general election not about the second referendum in my opinion. Okay Any other business questions questions. Let's get your questions Um Oh, it is a bit sweaty in here, isn't it? If somebody said that no, that's what I've said me Okay, it's dusty because we've been moving so much stuff around and we're moving to our fantastic new studio. Thanks to the kind Generosity of our subscribers if you're not one of them Oh, yeah, I don't do that today on our media dot com Help us build a new media from politics help michael host the tiskey pretty much every night during a general election That's the idea. I can't imagine how you could even better inform than you already are Sheen of our media viewers, but you would be I thought you were talking about me there. No, I have to do a lot more research if we have a nightly show Uh first question. Matthew Cole say labor winner general election and negotiate brexit. How will Corbyn credibly answer the question? How is your deal better than remaining in the EU? Well, I mean for one that won't necessarily be a question. He has to answer Where's this question? Uh, this is from Matthew Cole say labor winner general election and negotiate brexit How will Corbyn credibly answer the question? How is your deal better than remaining in the EU if he's staying neutral He's not he doesn't have to answer that question. He can just say They're different options. Yeah Depends depends look people will want to leave the EU will find a better option people that want to remain will find a worse option Well, to be honest Most people many people who voted leave will think it's completely irrelevant and try and boycott the referendum, but I mean that's also But you've got I mean you had a really good take on this. You're like good Well, it's that with the 2016 ballot got a bunch of people who don't normally vote and actually it suits both the Tories and labor No, I don't mean ethically good though. No, no, no, no, but yeah, it suits it suits the Tories as well If these people never vote ever again, they're perfectly happy with that. Yeah, because they were never gonna Yeah, because it's like it's completely that's that's contra that several million people who don't normally turn out who voted for leave Has disrupted politics as normal the reason I think you could have that and it would be democratic Is if labor won a general election on that position We don't agree with that by the way. We're radical democrats. I'm just saying what you've analytically highlighted before which is very important um Okay, so what would Boris what would Jeremy Corbyn say? How is your deal better than remaining in the EU? He'd say look, I've got a deal and I've got remaining. I'm not necessarily telling you to vote for either of them I'm just saying here's what the facts are someone like john trickit For example has said he will campaign for the labor leave. I respect that I think that's a good position to come out and say that I think it is important That there'll be some people on the front bench making that case to be honest I think his main argument will be because people voted to leave and I do think we should Follow through with that. I think it it creates Disenfranchisement if people feel that they voted for something and then it doesn't happen So I would prefer for the confirmatory referendum If that's what they're calling it to confirm the deal as opposed to rejecting the deal I mean potentially you'll have some other answers about state aid But it looks like if it's just going to be a very soft Brexit Then the only advantage is that it respects people's desire to have left the european union Do you agree agree you don't think there's going to be any more thing more substantive in it I I just want Brexit to be done to be honest as long as it's not completely mad Like sort of Boris Johnson's deal. I don't I'm kind of ambivalent It's kind of why I want labors things to be on the table because basically either outcomes okay You've got a quiz question here. Okay, go with a prize So a Dubois asks who is the official resident of Downing Street Aaron gets free food for a month at my restaurant if he can answer this question correctly The official resident at Downing Street. Yeah Is it something related to the no, it's not related to the queen with something in We can't be the prime minister because that would be too obvious. Is it the Lord Chancellor? Oh, is it the Lord Chancellor a Dubois? We'll have to wait for him. He'll get back to us. We'll have to wait for him to answer that question Or if any of if anyone else in the audience knows the answer there. Hey, we didn't talk about Kurdistan Let's maybe take a Kurdish question. Is there a Kurdish question? Yeah There was a good question about there was a question from Kaylee Brownco as well should Should a second Scottish independence referendum be the price of a labour SMP coalition? Sure, why not? I agree I think a lot of scots when they see this like we're like in the We're English. Yeah, they expect to be like no save the union. We're like, it's your country Generally speaking. I don't care. Yeah. I mean to be honest, maybe it wouldn't But the SMP don't want one either, right? That's the argument that's made about this is that the SMP for them to put Boris Johnson in Number 10 because of a refusal of labour to give them a second referendum Would be politically toxic for them be like 1979 over again And people would see look you are so ideological You're so belligerent that you've chosen the possibility for a second referendum over Well-funded public services and you've you've lumbered us with a hard Brexit with this fucking idiot You know, so so I think actually labour in a very strong position to negotiate with the SMP at that point And probably what will happen is you'll have some agreement on a you know Potentially a constitutional convention or something which pushes things into the long grass Where you say if you can demonstrate, there'll be some sort of inbuilt principle of consent I imagine which suits the SMP down to the ground Also makes sense because there's a difference between Scotland and Northern Ireland Which is written into the Good Friday Agreement is this principle of consent whereby if Republicans can demonstrate or somewhat vague how it how it would be demonstrated But but it's written into the agreement that if it can be demonstrated that there is a majority for irish unity in Northern Ireland Then there should be a referendum So it's not purely in the the gift of Westminster in Scotland. You have a different situation It's purely in the gift of Westminster So in theory legally you could have polls saying that 70 percent of scott scottish voters want independence And legally parliament can just say or Westminster can just say no No, you're sticking with us And because scotland only have what 57 representatives at Westminster There could be a permanent majority blocking independence. So a neat i'm going to suggest this a neat solution To SMP labour negotiations Post post general election would not be to give a second referendum there and then on scottish independence But to agree to some sort of legal framework whereby the power to grant scotland a second referendum Resides in scotland as opposed to resides in in britain. I like it I actually think as well, you know, this is the big question now for people in england I wouldn't say the english level because I don't think such thing exists People in england. There's a great book out on this by the way. Alex Niven's new book coming out soon new model island great book Uh, it's how do we deal with the constitutional breakup of of the united kingdom in england because the idea of The idea of like a left-wing english nationalism. I find very stupid. I don't think it's going to happen Um, but it poses difficult questions because right now that terrain's almost, you know, it's monopolised by the rye The boys by the way said it was the first lord of the treasury No, it's the first lord of the treasury and who is that? No, I do. Is that the is that a weird constitutional name for the prime minister? No, no I suppose that's the follow-up question if anyone knows who is the the first or the treasury. Yeah, you can tell us that Okay, here is a serious question. Joe Broderick is the us withdrawal of troops of syria aimed to make trump appear to be less Of a warhawk than he is. That's an interesting question Well trump trump's initial sort of messaging on foreign policy in 2016 was isolationism You know, it's a really popular message with the us and the wars bring these guys out of Um out of these these theaters of combat, which are the other side of the world And that was american foreign policy doctrine really until the second world war So it's not a new thing Well, I mean another way I mean, obviously this is not the most important thing that's going on when it comes to the withdrawal of american troops in in northeast syria, but in terms of why it is happening in terms of Trumpian domestic politics we were talking earlier about a wedge issue and what you want as a politician for a wedge issue is Something that is actually sort of common sense and agreed among the general population But whereby your political opponents are forced to very loudly disagree with you And I think you could actually look at this as an issue like that, right? So the whole republican establishment and the democratic party and the media and you know, the whole political Establishment in america including the army is saying you shouldn't have sold out the Kurds Because you you owe them your allegiance because they've been our allies on the ground fighting ices now donald trump Might do I haven't seen the polling on this, but he might be thinking look I know that there is actually a common sense undercurrent in the american population where they don't give a shit about syrian Kurds What they care about is us wasting our money on foreign wars. So I'll let the political establishment. I'll let the democrats. I'll let What's that? Lindsey Graham I'll let cnn and and and these people in in the military to cry my bringing back troops from From rejava from northeast syria and let them disagree with me because I know that there's an underlying agreement in the public That one they don't think that american Wars are brought up particularly good and two that they don't want america to be acting as a policeman defending People's they don't actually give a shit about so potentially it is a smart electoral. That's all true. That is all true but it's also an embarrassment for the u.s and like Trump was obsessed with Benghazi Do you remember when hillary clinton was sector of state and there was this Benghazi kind of operation when completely wrong He was trying to get hillary clinton like, you know Charge with criminal offenses, etc And what he did what's happened in the last week is worse than make far worse than Benghazi Far far worse the Kurds been working alongside the u.s for five years there They have details. They have, you know, they have probably quite Useful information for the russians weren't americans killed in Benghazi though Yeah, that's what i'm saying. I'm saying but it was like a foreign policy fuck up Yeah, but what i'm saying is if you've like not defended our interests. It's an embarrassment. It's humiliation But if donald trump comes from this position that actually the only thing the americ that really, you know Sticks in the minds of the american voters is a dead american Yeah, and if it's a brown person, they just don't care if it's, you know, that's actually his whole rhetoric around it was Look, there's this tribal Historic, you know the Kurds and the Turks. They just hate each other. These are basically just primitive inhuman people And why should we take sides as long as there's no dead american and there was dead americans Do you not think it's like, you know, i know what you're saying, but he's a republican This whole thing is like terrorism safety And you know a decision made by him has led potentially to the real and obviously the Kurds are going to sort of really emphasize this We don't know the precise numbers, but clearly ISIS prisoners are escaping from prison. That has happened It's and let's say it's in the hundreds, right? Or it could be in the thousands. Do you not think that undermines this kind of message against terrorism if like Literally ISIS terrorists obviously it should do you know, we're able to escape. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He made I mean it just Okay, I'm not interested to see how it plays out I'm not gonna say that's gonna I'm not gonna he's gonna lose the presidency on it But clearly it does nullify a potential line of attack which he will want to say we're so strong It's like no, you're such a dumb ass actually Your decision meant thousands of isis, you know soldiers competence, you know escaped And they're now a risk to america again All it takes is for one of those people to Attack a us air base or a military installation or a warship somewhere one person Who we think was in an isis prison. That's fucked He's not fucked, but you know, it's a big story Uh olim cask Says every time I like this video automatically unlikes it, which is a conspiracy against navara media So to make up for this deep state conspiracy against navara media, which won't let olim kaks I don't know how you pronounce that like our videos. Can you like our video make up for that one? The more of you that like it the more people's feeds it appears in and the easier it is For us to get the word out about tisky sour and navara media somebody said here english left doesn't exist Seriously, just go to toll puddle festival. I love toll puddle and as a southerner. I find it fascinating but I do think there are distinct differences between Social life in the southeast of england and the northeast of england I just think that's just a fact And actually the northeast of england shares a lot more in common with scottish borders Than it does with the southeast of england just reality So the idea that you have this kind of contiguous english identity like you do with scotland or with arland or with wales I don't think that's true Let's see I'm seeing if there's any Will wood labor give political asylum to those in catalonia involved in organizing the referendum It's an interesting question because I don't know if I mean we should obviously belgium was giving political asylum to Yeah, the leader of because I was just I was what I was going to ask is can a eu member state give a resident of another EU member state political asylum and they can yes Happen in 1970 in the late 70s between italy and france Yeah, about 1500 distance left italy went to france and it was called like the meter on doctrine or something Did that include negri? No. Yeah And yeah, I think that in belgium. What was his name quidge more? Yeah He was given was he given asylum in belgium or at least he was hiding out in belgium And they couldn't get an extradition request for him. Yeah Yeah, and I think there's certain arguments to be made you could probably appeal to various You know like in this country you could probably appeal to the human rights act or something And you'd have maybe an argument there'd be a lot of real politic presumably So it would be about leverage. So I don't know if if I think if labor in power Probably they'd be inclined to give political asylum to the you know who would be inclined to give political asylum to the Catalynians would be the scottish actually I can imagine that just perfect. That would just happen probably perfect example Although to be honest if they want to rejoin the EU as an independent state then Potentially they don't want to piss off a country that's got veto power. Who knows Is the question's too hypothetical even if it is interesting for us to give a definitive answer to yeah Right Oh, this is an interesting one. I don't really know the answer one or two more. Yeah, we'll take two more Dex just asks do you think the way labor party members talk at their conference i.e. saying comrade pushes away traditional working class voters Don't really care Yeah, I don't I mean what are they meant to call them if they say brothers and sisters people Well, I don't talk to most people like that Colleagues it sounds like you're in the office Just comments. It's fine. People say it with regards to soldiers, right? They say comrades in arms. Nobody goes Oh people, you know, don't like if it's relevant relevant language if you're describing Two soldiers fighting in a war zone. That's historically how the word's been used. Yeah I mean, I think one thing about labor party conference that's sort of under commented upon Is and and where there's a stark contrast with the conservative party conference and something that I love about it Actually, you've got just hundreds of people going up and giving really impassioned speeches Which is live on bbc live on sky news and to an audience of you know 2000 3000 4000 politically engaged people and I think the fact that we have this movement of people who can give You know impassioned, you know, some of them are boring some of them are repetitive Some of them are amazing, you know, and every now and again you get this real electric moment when someone stands up from a Gives an impassioned speech about mental health or austerity or or or an argument about what rule change they want, you know It can be I think yeah, wherever they say comrade or not That's the least of our worries. That's the least of our worries. It's a it's a regular person Participating in the conversation of a party which aspires to govern, you know, the fifth biggest economy in the world That's really cool I was at this event actually on saturday in haistings and dine abbot was on a round table with around 15 people and one of them was a recent Refugee from syria and she was talking to dine abbot about, you know, what what should be done in syria? Unless be real There's no other major political party in britain that operates like that The shadow home secretary talking to somebody who's just come from syria about how we should respond to it politically It's very very rare, you know labor has some problems. So it also has a lot of really good things Someone says jay says can you stop naming segments and these letters after obscure middle class hipster drinks, please Uh, where is cortado is? Spanish Spanish, isn't it? I mean because i lived in spain for a year and obviously you didn't call it a cortado. You just call it a coffee Yeah, but I think the idea of a cortado is it is the same That's that's how the spanish do coffee. Well, I mean, isn't it just cafe con leche? Yeah I don't get it. But they don't call it. Well, because that's what I mean. I don't know where where's cortado come from Well, we well, I don't know who invented the word cortado Cortado, what would it mean? Well, because the point is it's bigger than us. We can't just call it a Shortened does that means cortado? Cortado means short in italian. Yeah, it probably means shortened. So it's a shortened I mean, it's a short and flat white. It means this We call it a cortado because it's bigger than an espresso and it's smaller than a flat white You need a name for that middle middle size frothy coffee after after authentic rattan chief oan smiths 2016 campaign kicked off in a cafe in Pontypreed And he said oh, I don't normally have one of these frothy coffees You know, hammer time says okay, this puts off the working class way more than comrade I think that was about our conversation about cortados and coffee sizes. What if what if the working class is spanish? Well, they'd call it kaffek on leches. It's irrelevant. Yeah This is like cosmos being middle class like mate. They're fucking 30 p.m. Little give me a break All right, let's choose a final question one then Uh, do people that are left in change uk still refer to each other as fellow cocks There's only two of them. I think isn't there Gavin shuka knows three. No, mike gape's john ryan and anna subrie I know john ryan's left Did she get allowed into the lib dems? I mean, yes, she did. She did really did politics. So it's anna subrie and chris leslie And gape's won't join the lib dems because like his pro nato position. Was it? He's mad as a fucking hatter. It's amazing how these like completely weird figures Were like just given a free pass by certainly the sensible people in the labor party He is a real i'm gonna be kind and iconoclast gape says Oh, I thought you were gonna be I thought that's what I thought you were gonna come out with anyway. Let's call it an evening Hey, you don't think gape's iconoclast. Okay fine. Um, no, I was actually I was looking at questions and got distracted Cortado shortened cut. Okay. There you go. Cut with milk Tomorrow night, we will be back for an episode of tisky sour with luke savage from jackabin Uh, he is canadian. So we're going to talk about the canadian elections next saturday We'll also have ellie may oh hagan on freelance journalists often writes for the guardian So we'll be talking about whatever's going on in british politics that day probably a little bit about bernie sanders and elizabeth Warren it's going to be a very good show And they'll be also a show later in the week depending on on what happens presumably something For those negotiations that are going to be going on. Is it in brussels? Where's the meeting? Anyway, the the the meeting of the eu eu council to work out Although the european european council isn't actually a deal. It's not related to the european council just to be clear Is that true people get confused between the council and ministers and the european council. They're separate bodies anyway You learn something new every day On that note, you've been watching tisky sour You've been watching navara media as you know this show is only possible because of your kind support if you are already a subscriber Thank you very much. That's what makes this possible If not, please go to support dot navara media dot com and donate the equivalent of one hour's wage a month so we can keep growing upping our output and building hegemony For the british left not on that because i mean hegemony on the british left would be Pointless we need the left to be bigger everywhere Can i just say thanks for tuning in we've had At one point almost 1200 people watching tonight at the same time england spanked vulgaria apparently six nil so I think that just shows the hunger for radical ideas and the in the fervent political moment that we all inhabit Good night