 The strike by the Judiciary Staff Union of Nigeria is exactly two months old today. That's two months without lawyers going to court, which in turn translates to a loss of brief and loss of money. And what's worse is that the judicial workers are threatening to take their strike to another level. That's because the state governors aren't showing seriousness about meeting their demand for financial autonomy. The senior advocate of Nigeria and former chairman of the NBA section of the Public Interest and Development Law, Mr Paul Ananbar, is joining us to talk about this. Good morning. Good morning. I'd like you to first share your personal experience with how this whole strike is affecting you and your work, and then generally in the country. Well, it's been a rare experience, starting practicing law as early as 1991. We've not gone through this before. We are strike, paralyze the courts continuously for two months. Total paralysis, not even partial ones we used to see. So it's being hectic. And you asked me how it has affected me. I am used to going to court virtually every morning. And I wake up every morning. I don't even, there's no call to go to. It's as if I, you know, I just got retired from my child. No call to go to. This is what I've been doing since more than 30 years now. Now when you go forward to that, you cannot even compare with the COVID period. During the COVID period, it wasn't that hectic. We had Zoom court sessions and all that and all that. So it's a bit different from that. That even was COVID and everybody was feeling it. Now, you not get to the office. You don't have much to do because, I mean, there are no processes to file, except people who have backlogs, which I didn't have. So you get to the office maybe to read and all that. So it's a difficult experience. The next level is that I have to pay salaries for March across my, the four visits I have across the country, I pay salaries, March. I pay salaries for April and I pay salaries for May. I will already in June go into second, third day. It doesn't seem as if this strike will be called off this week again. So if you use some anxiety, as an employer of level two, am I going to lay out some lawyers? I'm just using myself to mirror what will be going on with other lawyers. Are we going to pay March salaries or are salaries going to be delayed? What about the other overheads? Did they stop with the strike? They did not. Now, what about the young lawyer? We may have just started practice and his practice is litigation going to court. How will such person survive? How will the person get income? And then you look at the litigants, the client. What will such person do? He has an issue that needs the attention of the court. How will this person get adaptation? And much more, those who are in detention, those who are in detention that require bail or process in order to get bail have gotten an unknown sentence, really, of both, as the man was speaking, for two months because they can't be released. Simple bail. They are there for two months. I need to put that along with our experience coming from COVID all the way to this point. It's been a difficult time for illegal probation. I want to know what it feels like. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of urgency with regards sorting out the issues and putting the courts back in session, both from the government side and every other person who, of course, should play a role here. Why isn't there an urgency? It doesn't appear so. And you can understand that there are, I've lost count of the number of strikes that I'm ongoing now. It's just that the judicial strike is like a bailout. It affects the court directly now. Otherwise, it's polytechnic, some medical, parts of the medical profession and not many people on strike. So we have gotten used to strike in Nigeria, perhaps, so that when there are strikes, nobody worries about it. It can go on. But this strike affects the fundamental rights of people. I just gave you an example of those in detention it could be anybody and this dog just got shot and the person is in detention for two months and counting. Have you wondered what states have lost from filing fees? Give us a sense of that, Ms. Annanaba. Yes. From filing fees, from property fees, a large chunk of revenue of many states come from pro-base fees. Come from the court and don't forget the judges and the magistrates will be paid. Whether there is a strike or not, because the judges are not on strike, the magistrates are not on strike. The minister of justice is not on strike. So even these judicial staff, we also have to be paid. So at the end of the day, we seem to have lost the urgency of fixing these lost relevance of this. If you are an investor, will you consider Nigeria a destination to invest where the cost can be locked up for two months and nobody cares? No urgency. And look at the level of insecurity today. Why should one worry about insecurity? Because if anybody has any concern, there is no call to go to pass the police now. Police stations will be too busy. They will do what the police normally does. And there will also be some form of cuts. Because that's the only place to run to go down. You can't go to the military. So I just can't fix what's going on in our country. Thank you. Okay. So Ms. Annanaba, you mentioned young lawyers earlier. And news reports, which in us confirms that some young lawyers, just so they can find a means to survive, they have registered their vehicles for e-hailing services. And they are now doing that to survive. These are people who should be making sure that justice is dispensed in their own way. How do you interpret this situation? Those are the situation, but our rules of conduct will not allow that. They can only do that quietly. Although people will present arguments when we get to that river or crossing. But you can understand, a young lawyer, where will he get income? The clients will avoid you. The economy is not even buoyant that any client or family member will be benevolent. The economy has got the benevolence of many people. So what will you do? And you know the society looks at the lawyers, the rich man, young or old. So what will a young lawyer do? Perhaps that's what, out of those different situations, some would be doing that. But the profession does not encourage that. What I'm going to say is that it is important and it is a national duty that both Jusson and the government should bring this strike to an end. As we speak, we are already in June. By the middle of July to the end of July, start to really, there will be a vacation for a month and a half. And then this thing continues until September. It's painful. The future is really difficult. What would you be saying to Jusson now? And what is the message to Jusson seeing that? I'm going to say to Jusson, most of these, some of these people in Jusson are also lawyers. A large percentage of them are lawyers. The public maybe sees them as just a small staff. No. Many of them are lawyers too. And that's why the strike is effective because they know what they are talking about. What I think Jusson should do, we should not have this type of strike again. All the issues should be on the table and resolved. And much more to the government, they should ensure that this issue is dealt with holistically, pathetically, and thoroughly, so that we don't go back to the strike. I wouldn't subscribe to the station or go on the strike now and go back again because this strike has hurt this country, has hurt everybody. Thank you. So what would you say to governors like Iyer San Wike of Rivers States that have threatened to not pay judiciary workers who refuse to show up at work? Well, Iyer San Wike is a lawyer himself. I'd be surprised if that's what he would do. I'm not talking about what he said, if that's what he would do. Whereas even then in the last two months, is this strike just beginning? So let's not talk about that. I believe that the bar will reach him and sort that aspect out. But I will be thinking that every governor should be talking to another governor so that the peace process will not be delayed. You cannot get this matter resolved by force. You cannot resolve it by threats. You cannot resolve it by harassment. It should be resolved on the table so that it will be lasting. Are there any legal practitioners at all that are still making money somehow some way in this period? Besides being in court? There are those that are here and people say are commercial lawyers who draft documents, give advice, maybe they get some, you know, those who do property business like I had. I'm a litigation person. You know, if there's any other thing I do by this way. And so I feel the pinch of the strike. The professional angle and the business angle. You know, for me, law is not just a profession, it's also a business. That's where I feed from. Can we have a sense of what it feels like to be awaiting bail for two months and of course not having any idea when you will be able to you know go to court for your bail application once again. That's the point I was making. It's mental torture. Remember that some of these people may maybe they are just for flimsy charges. You know, except that to some extent the Supreme Court and the court of appeal deliver some judgments. Some judgments have become still and they are constitutionally guaranteed issues. For example, a court was delivered judgment within 90 days. So matters where there have been final addresses in the high courts. Those judgments, those cases have been caught up by the constitution. And well, we will look to see how those issues will be resolved in the coming days. Because I mean, in the past you will have, the judge will have there have invited parties to address, present pressure address, but the Supreme Court have also ruled that no, the constitution does not provide for that. So those cases may become still. Some of them even in the court of appeal and Supreme Court, I do not know. But once any of those judgments are going beyond 90 days, they are in difficult. So there are collateral effects of this trial. So all the parties, I played with them to come to terms quickly. Okay. How about the Nigeria Bar Association? We know that they were mute the first few days of the strike because, you know, the president said they didn't want to rush into any, any action. But later on, we saw the NBA begin to express their support and even also protest, you know, support in juicing. But what, what are they saying right now regarding conversing with other stakeholders and making sure the strike comes to an end? My understanding of what NBA has done is to be mediatory. We're not taking sides as NBA. NBA has been mediatory. Now, we defend the constitution as an association. You may have to take a look at section 120 and 120, one of the constitution. That's what Juicy is asking for. Section 1201 says that the sums that are due to the legal, to the judiciary should be paid directly to the judiciary. So anybody that is not doing that is breaching the constitution. And you, you, you would have seen that in the recent times that the judiciary has been so politicized because of this issue of autonomy and independence. Why will, why will a Nigerian not be working towards the autonomy and independence of the judiciary? Why wouldn't you pay this money to the judiciary? Why would we have a case where a governor comes and says, I have bought vehicles for the judiciary, for the judges. Why? Why wouldn't you have happened to running others? And the judges are making vehicles for all of them. So that's not what they should be. And you have political power. When you buy vehicles, you're going to have to make those for them and do this after. How will they be neutral? How do you Okay. We're losing you, we're losing you a bit with your audio. Could you kind of come again, since we have you now? Okay. That's still a bit of a hitch with that network. But what he was basically saying is that, you know, according to the constitution, the money that should be for judicial workers should get to them directly. And he was basically condemning governors buying cars for judicial workers that it takes away their, their impartiality and neutrality. Absolutely. And that's what, you know, the autonomy is all about. You can't, you know, claim to be, you know, autonomous and you're still collecting money from, you know, a person who you should, you know, at some point be able to give judgment against or for. So that that's, you know, really where the challenges, you know, the legal system needs to be able to fund itself, sometimes some way. Government needs to hands off, you know, with regards to their finances. And it goes, you know, I think here we've spoken lots of times about the local government also and it's full autonomy. So it's, it's in many other sectors. But the victims here, obviously are these lawyers, like he's mentioned, he's continued to pay salaries in his four offices without any, you know, income. At the same time, there's people who are languishing in jail waiting for bail. Mr. Nannaba, can you hear us now? Can you hear us, Mr. Nannaba? Yes, we can. There's a little glitch with the... No, okay, we're still struggling to get clear feedback from you. But I think we can, we can wrap up the conversation here. We'd like to say thank you. We hope that there is some answers provided by Jussian and the federal government as quickly as possible. And the courts can be back fully functional and get, you know, things moving once again. Thanks for your time this morning. Thanks for speaking with us. Thank you too. All right. Okay, so, you know, what we'd look at, how judiciary works in other parts of the country. Take for example in South Africa and how Jacob Zuma is standing trial for all the corruption allegations against him. You can obviously see that it's only in a country where the judiciary is autonomous that that can happen. It's only in a country where there is no, you know, interference, political interference whatsoever, that the lawyers and judges of a country can call the president, the former president to order and say, you are accused of collecting bribes and so, so millions. You need to answer for that. A country where these judges receive cash from you, receive gifts from you. They can never, you know, dispense justice that way. And to also be able to properly fund the legal system, to be able to fund their courts, to be able to fund, you know, everything that has to do with running the court system. You know, it cannot be, you know, because we're waiting for kickbacks of our funding from the government. We also have our own, you know, glitches where things need to be fixed, you know, like who appoints the CJN, who appoints, who get, how does the CJN get into office? How does the attorney general gets into office and the minister of justice gets into office? You know, some of all those things we've seen, you know, Abumakumalami all through the period that we've been in the last four, six years, always taking sides with President Mahmoud Abawari, which in other circumstances, you know, other climes, you know, might not seem normal. Even at times when he should be able to take a stance and say, no, you know, this doesn't seem right. But there's always, he has always continued to take sides, a political side, seemingly political side, instead of, you know, acting as a minister of justice and attorney general federation. So we have our own peculiarities, you know, with the issues concerning our legal system. But my own challenge really is why this doesn't seem to have any urgency with fixing. Why doesn't anyone see that this is totally abnormal, that your courts have not been in section for two months? That is entirely abnormal. And like Paul and Annaba said, it's an infringement on the rights of those people who have been denied bail for the last two months because there's no courts to go to. But will they also get justice at the end of all of this? Who can they sue at the end of all of this? So it's a mess. But these are some of the factors and some of the aspects that we need fixing with regards to Nigeria. And it will not come by being called a uranium and United African Republic or whatever. You are Let's take a break here. We'll return to speak to a former presidential aspirant. And he's also indicated an interest in wanting for president in 2023 and the person of Mr. Kingsley Moghulu will be right back.