 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. First of all, he was not shot in the head. Most people believe that he was pistol whipped. He suffered some severe lacerations. Had he been shot in the head at point blank rage, there would never have been a two-pock death row. It had been dead right then and he was pistol whipped over the head when he tried to pull his own pistol out of his waistband in the in the heat of the moment. He was trying to pull his own pistol out and he shoots himself and that bullet goes through his leg through his groin and back and you know so he he shoots himself. Yeah so for instance in Las Vegas, two-pock had no business running over in assaulting Orlando Anderson. That was not two-pock's business. That was gang shit that two-pock shouldn't have had anything to do with and so when he decided to take it upon himself to go and act like he was you know representing this gang that's when he made a you know he made a fatal mistake. So they start putting the wheels into motion to go and retaliate. They know where two-pock's going to be. They know where Sug's going to be. They go and approach a guy who was affiliated with Bad Boy, at least a guy that was affiliated with Puffy and they say hey you know we have a beef now. This guy offers to give them a gun. He gives Keefy D which was Orlando Anderson's uncle a gun. They get into a car and then they set off to find two-pock Sugknight obviously now has lost not only his bodyguard Jake Robles after the shooting in Atlanta now he's lost two-pock in Las Vegas and you know for all intent and purposes they're kind of losing the war and so you know he knows that he has to answer for the murder of two-pock and so he sets things in motion in order to have Biggie killed. No Sugknight's not ever going to sit down and tell the truth. The law enforcement, you gotta understand who Sugknight is and the nature of Sugknight. I mean he's... Sugknight is about Sugknight. Sugknight's about Sugknight only. He doesn't give a shit about justice. You know a lot of people out there that are you know attaching themselves to conspiracy theories and there's people that are out there thinking two-pock's alive. There's people that are out there thinking that Sug killed two-pock. There's people that are out there thinking the government killed two-pock. There's people that are out there thinking the The police killed Biggie. So, you know, there's all of these different points of view. I know what I know, and I believe what I believe. And so I'm just settled with that. Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got Greg Cadding, 20 years detective of LAPD, working one of the biggest unsolved murder cases, both. Biggie and Tupac, you came in. Was it nine years later, Greg? For this case? Yeah, well, Tupac was murdered in 96 and Biggie in 97. I didn't come on the case until 2006. So yeah, approximately nine years after Biggie was killed is when I began to work on the investigation. First of all, how about you, brother? I am really good, thank you. You know, we're just going to roll in with the punches over here in the US. As I know, you guys are kind of rolling with the punches over there in the UK. And just trying to figure out what the world's going to do with itself. Yeah, it's crazy times, but all we can do is soldier on. I always go back to the start of my guess. First, Greg, just to get a bit of information about yourself, where you grew up and how it all began. Yeah, so I grew up in California, Northern California initially, and then moved to Southern California. And, you know, typical childhood, played sports, had friends, got into some trouble. And then when I was about 20 years old, I wasn't exactly sure what I was going to do with myself. And a mentor of mine, who was actually a friend of mine's dad, encouraged me to join the sheriff's department. And he was a sheriff. And he says, you know, Greg, you're kind of aimless right now, you don't have a whole lot going on. And I needed a job. And so he suggested I apply for the sheriff's department. And I did, and I got a job and I went to the academy. And then I decided I wanted to transfer to Los Angeles because I thought it would be more exciting to work up in the big city. And so I applied for the LAPD, went through another academy, and then ultimately began working, start, you know, continuing my career in Los Angeles. And did that, you know, collectively for 25 years, and then retired in 2010. And because of the big investigation, I wrote a book after retiring. And then it kind of went on its own journey into documentary and limited series and podcasts. Yeah, very popular. Obviously, such a massive subject to the greatest rappers of all time. Two young kids with such a high, had such high popularity at the time, kind of just going through the ranks. And obviously when that stuff happens, it brings eyes from all around the world. But how was your, before we start, kind of, what was going through the academy like for you, Greg? It was not too tough. You know, the academy's made, well, it tries to weed out the people that probably shouldn't be there. So intellectually, if you just don't have the capability of wrapping your head around law, and physically, if you don't have the ability to just to perform at a standard level, and then ethically, you know, what kind of person are you? And so you, you know, if you're a decent human being in decent shape with decent intellectual capabilities, you can get through the academy. But if you're flawed in any of those areas, then, you know, you're gonna struggle and probably be disqualified. Because you've worked 200 cases, I believe, for LAPDs, that correct? Yeah, I mean, you know, when you're going, you know, cases, what does that mean? So when you're working as a crash officer, I worked gains for a long time and you investigate a lot of gang crime. And then I got into narcotics and investigate all types of narcotic activity. And most of the time, gang and narcotics were all integrated and, you know, collectively working. And then homicides, I started in a cold case. And so we would just go through old cases and old cases and old cases and seeing if there was anything that needed to still be done or if there's any new evidence. And collectively, I think, you know, over the period of time that I was assigned a cold case, I reviewed about 200 cases. How many gangs are in LA? How many different gangs? Oh, hundreds. There's too many to count. I mean, it's hard to keep track. And then, you know, because we had gangs and then we had tagging crews and, you know, is there a difference between a gang and a tagging crew? And so, you know, you've got to differentiate what you mean, you know, by a gang. You know, car clubs sometimes would be perceived as a gang. Motorcycle clubs could be perceived as a gang. So it really, there's just so many different facets of it. But just the typical gangs, as we kind of think about in common parlance, hundreds of them, hundreds of them. And some were small and some were large. Some would have hundreds of members and some would have, you know, 20 members. Who was the toughest gang you'd seen or come up against? Obviously, you'd get your bikers, your Mexicans and was it a certain gang that stood out for you that was very well organized? Well, they're all very loosely organized, actually. They're not well organized. It's not organized like we consider, like, the mafia or, you know, organized crime. But they're organized that there is a hierarchy. There is, you know, the OGs, shot callers and the young kids and the guys that go out and do the crimes and the guys that are selling the dope and the guys are just hanging on. So there's all different kind of components to it. You know, obviously the transnational gangs, like, you know, the El Salvadoran gangs particularly, Marta Salvatrucha and I'm drawing a blank on one of the biggest gangs in the world right now from El Salvador, but those are huge international gangs. Then you have your local gangs, you know, and they're all dangerous in their own way. They're all capable of creating havoc, but some at just much larger levels. Like the black gangs were more or less localized to LA and then of course, over the years, they began to spread, they kind of tethered out into Atlanta or Detroit or, you know, originally it was just Bloods and Crips in Los Angeles. Well, now there's Bloods and Crips in cities all over the United States for sure, but probably little facets of them outside of the United States. Gun crime in US is massive. Not so much here in the UK. It's more knife crime, yes, guns are used, but not as frequently. You ever endanger yourself, Greg, by getting shot at in America? Yeah, I remember one time I'm driving in a black and white and I mean, I was in danger, I didn't even know about it. We were driving through a park and it was late at night and I heard a loud boom and I'm like, shit, I think that was a gunshot. And I remember I thought we had hit something in the park, like ran over a big branch or something. We got back to the station and there was a shotgun slug hole right under the passenger side door. So it went, it passed right under the door where I was sitting. Didn't even know about it at the time. You know, because we're driving through the park and the car's kind of bouncing around. I hear a loud shot and we figure out shit. Somebody had just shot at us. And of course, when you're chasing people down dark alleys, you're in danger because you don't know if they're gonna turn around, if they have a gun. And so those type of things were commonplace. Those were really kind of like everyday activities where you would be in danger, but being in danger and being in fear can be two different things. I was never really in fear, even though I might have been in danger. Does that ever make you question your job, though, Greg, when your life is in danger, every time you put on a uniform? Well, it can be. I mean, because what are you doing? You're going out and confronting the worst of society's ills oftentimes. And you're also just confronting people, even decent people that are at their worst. So you're going to a domestic violence scene and everybody's emotions are running high and people think that, you know, the world's falling apart on them and you do desperate things when you're in those positions. So you can get into situations where, you know, people that would normally be compliant and cooperative all of a sudden don't because they're just so amped up over their own desperate situation, whatever it might be. So yeah, you never know what you're gonna encounter. You put on the uniform, you get in the car, you answer radio calls and you never know what's around the corner until you get there and try to figure it out. So yeah, I mean, you're at risk. I've had a few police officers on the podcast and people don't realize from the rough areas and the estates we have in the UK, it's kind of, you kind of grew up to hate the police, but once you actually listen to people's stories who've put on a uniform, you don't realize that the extent they actually go through that seeing the dead bodies, even car crashes, like having to go to scenes and I had a man on and there was a kid cut in half and they had to just wait until the ambulance was there, but as soon as obviously it was the bonnet of the car that was keeping the body together, like some sad, sad stuff and a lot of people then seem to turn to drinking drugs who are police officers, especially in the UK. Everyone I've had on, I've had kind of, I believe the PTSD plays a big part in a lot of trauma from what they see because it's not humane thing to see all that kind of stuff daily. How does it change you as an individual, Greg, to be in such a tough job? Like, do you become cold towards society, your family, or is it just to put a uniform on and come home and switch off or how do you adapt to that? Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think generally speaking, like you hit it on the head, it's an individual thing. It's like, how are you built as an individual? What kind of stresses and pressures can you endure? How do you manage that stress? And do you turn to the bottle? Do you turn to drugs? Do you turn to being an isolationist? Or it's just like, I don't wanna hang out with anybody but cops because they're the only people that understand me. So it depends on that individual and how he decides to process these stresses and these unusual situations. Oftentimes there's guys that just don't take the job too seriously and that's healthy. You've gotta be able to hang your uniform up, go home and live your life away from police work. But there's other people like myself, for instance, that get consumed by it. And it becomes more important in your personal life than it should. You need to have a line, a professional line and a personal line. And some people blur that line like I did. I was so committed to police work that oftentimes my family took a back seat and that's not good. That's unhealthy. But at the same time, the best investigators, the guys that really are going to probably accomplish the most are those guys that are so committed to the job that they're not gonna let one stone go unturned. So it's really, it's a tough thing, but you do have to be aware of what it's doing to you psychologically and emotionally. And I think law enforcement today recognizes that better than they ever have in the past. There's behavioral sciences that are looking for these flags and type of things. But back in the day, let's say the 60s, 70s, even 80s, it was like, hey, toughen up, handle it. Hopefully it puts. I think that's why a lot of people struggle to this day because there's men we don't really speak about we're feelings and emotions. Greg, if you've seen something in the 80s, 90s, like you say, it's toughen up. It's part of the job deal with that. Do you know what I mean? That's a tough thing in itself. But then again, it's easy now to speak out because we've got social media and it's kind of the end thing as well that people just love to speak out and that's a good thing. But so see when you are going through your career, did you know anything about two pack when you get shot and let 95, 96, did you know anything about them? Those shows. No, no, I didn't listen to that kind of music. I mean, obviously you might hear on the news or might be aware of the fact that, you know, these prominent musicians or these prominent artists have gotten killed. But no, I wasn't paying attention to it because I didn't listen to that music. And even at that time, I related that music to the type of street activity that I didn't admire. You know, I mean, when you have, you know, prior to these guys being killed, just think you've got NWA coming out with fuck the police. And there was very much a perception by not only the police department, but the general public is that this is anti-social type of music, anti-social behavior. And that's the way that I perceived it. It wasn't until I started working gangs and understanding gangs. And then of course, hearing music that was gang related that I start to appreciate, you know, where's this voice coming from? What are they talking about? What do we need to do to kind of merge the gap? That is taking place between the perception of the people on the street and law enforcement and the perception of law enforcement to the people that were on the street. And not that I was looking to tolerate crime, but understanding oftentimes where is this coming from and trying to understand why do people feel this way and is there a way to kind of heal these wounds? And so that's kind of always been obviously today it's still the challenge. See when NWA released that song what the fuck the police, the Jews see a rise and violence towards police or did that not really matter? Was it just a case of people singing that song when you're driving past and obviously a rise of violence? Yeah, I'm not sure which year that was, but listen, in the late 80s and early 90s, like gangs were just gang activities off the hook in Los Angeles. I mean, there were gang related murders every single night. And I'm not exaggerating sometimes two, three, five even 10 across the city. Like there was so much gang violence. And so when you correlate, well, what's happening and then this music that seems to be kind of not maybe glorifying it is too strong of a word, but tacitly supporting it. It's hard to say, I respect the music when it's emphasizing something that is causing so much damage in the cultures in which the music is being really respected and played and emphasized. Yeah, do you think that stuff was just putting more fuel to the fire that was already lit between gangs and the police at that stage anyway? Sure, yeah, yeah, at the time for sure. I would have thought that absolutely. So 2006, you got the call to work two of the biggest unsolved murders in America, especially in the music industry, two of the biggest hip hop stars. How does a manly year caliber then get the call for that job who didn't really know much about it? Well, I'll tell you, there's two parts of it. One is that the biggie case was being handled out of our robbery homicide division. So this is one of the, it's a downtown unit that handles all the higher profile murders in the city. You know, back at that time, excuse me, there was 18 different divisions, patrol divisions in Los Angeles. Each of those patrol divisions had their own homicide units. For instance, biggie got killed in Wilshire division. So originally biggie's murder was being handled by the Wilshire homicide detectives. But once it looked like it was going to be a more challenging case to solve and take more resources, it went down to the headquarters homicide unit what called robbery homicide division. So they had been working on it for, as we mentioned, nine years at that point. And then there's this lawsuit against the city claiming that cops were involved. So the people down at robbery homicide division were like, hey, we need to put fresh eyes on this. We need to take a new approach to this. And so the department looked to recruit people that had expertise in the areas that they presumed were relevant to the murder. Gains, obviously cold case homicide, potentially narcotics, large organized complicated cases. And I had been working those type of cases for years. So my name came across the table and the people at robbery homicide division were like, hey, Greg, are you interested in working this case along with other people? Of course. And I said, hell yeah, of course, I would love to. Let's see if we can figure it out. So where do you start then from that case like a few years before to, I'd imagine there'd be thousands and thousands of files and paperwork and where do you start them? And you get a case like that? Starting with what has already been done, you've got to go back and familiarize yourself with the case itself. You got to go back to the crime scene, back to all the things that led up to the murder. If you think that there was some kind of premeditation or you've got to think what was, what kind of conflicts were going on that might have been a motive for this murder, you've got to go and educate yourself on everything that is already known to the, to previous investigators. And so as you said, there's just thousands and thousands of pages of material that you have to review. You've got to figure out what has been done, what hasn't been done, what's your new strategy that's gonna, hopefully succeed where it hasn't in the past. So there's, it's a tremendous amount of work. And so my idea or our idea I should say was to like, let's get subject matter experts in every field. So we know these are firearm related crimes. Let's get somebody who is an expert in firearms, the gang related crimes. Let's get people that were experts in gangs, not only gangs in general, but gangs specifically. That's why we brought Tim Brennan in from Compton because he had been working gangs in Compton. We knew that Southside Crip was somehow or Southside Crips were related. Shugnait was affiliated with the Mon Pyrus. So we got people that, so we brought in all these subject matter experts to build a team. And that was the initial investigative strategy was to build a team. So we'll start off with Tupac, like the connection in 1995 when Tupac was shot five times in New York. Was this the start of it all between Bad Boy Records and Death Row Records or was it on before this? Well, yeah, no, there was no beef at that point between Death Row and Bad Boy because Tupac wasn't even with Death Row at that point in time. When he was shot in New York or when he got beat, I should say in New York in 1994 or 95, he wasn't even assigned to Death Row at that point in time. So there was no, you know, there was no beef going on between them at the time between the record labels. What about P. Diddy and Shugnait was P. Diddy's entourage? Did one of P. Diddy's entourage not kill one of Shugnait's entourage or bodyguard? That was after the incident in New York. So the shooting between Shugnait's bodyguard and P. Diddy's buddy, that was in 95, I think, in Atlanta. And that was after the thing that happened in New York with Tupac. And so, and even at that time, Tupac was still not assigned to Death Row. Do you think that plays an effect on it though? Because Shugnait never let that lie because it was always putting it on P. Diddy was it not? Absolutely, yeah. That was definitely the first time where the conflict resulted in physical violence. So once, you know, now you've got somebody who's dead as a result of their, of the beef that they were having and everything kind of just began to get more and more serious following that. Why did Tupac think Biggie and P. Diddy got him shot? What is the real reason behind that? Do you think Shugnait could have been possibly in his head because he didn't like P. Diddy anyway? No, again, remember in 94 when Tupac was shot, he had no association with Death Row. He didn't have any association with Shugnait. After it though, after it, the Shugnait get him bailed out or the Tupac automatically think it was P. Diddy and Biggie that tried to get him killed? Well, yeah. So at the Quad Studio, Tupac suspected that the guys at Bad Boy had something to do with it. So that was his initial, you know, perception. But in time, he began to realize that those guys probably weren't involved. But he suspected that maybe that they knew something and they weren't telling him. Not that they set it up, but that they were aware of who did it and then weren't telling him who did it. So, you know, it went from first Tupac thinking these guys had something to do with it. And then it was, okay, maybe they didn't have anything to do with it, but they knew about who did it and they didn't tell me. So that's how it kind of began to evolve. And then initially, you know, Tupac figured out who it was that it was Jimmy Roseman and, you know, a New York guy that was behind it. So was he just there to get robbed to a pack? Obviously to get killed? Yeah, no, it was to discipline him. They didn't go there to kill him, obviously, because they could have just killed him if that had been their intention. They beat him to discipline him because he was running his mouth about getting paid and kind of being demanding. And I think this guy, Jimmy Roseman, was just like, okay, listen, you got to understand, you don't dictate how things happen out here. I dictate how things happen out here and are you going to raise your voice that, you know, I'm going to have to send you a message. But five shots, man, that's more than a message. Well, first of all, that's highly, highly disputed. There's most of the evidence. First of all, he was not shot in the head. Most people believe that he was pistol whipped. He suffered some severe lacerations that had been shot in the head at point blank rage. There would never have been a Tupac death row. It had been dead right then and there. He was pistol whipped over the head when he tried to pull his own pistol out of his waistband and the heat of the moment, he was trying to pull his own pistol out and he shoots himself and that bullet goes through his leg, through his groin and back in, you know, so he shoots himself. And then of course his hand is lacerated because as he's grabbing the gun, he doesn't have a proper grip on it, which is one of the reasons why it accidentally discharged and the slide came back and sliced his finger in the web of his thumb here. So the idea that he was shot five times, that's just urban legend. Well, so that's a myth then, I always believed that as well, five times and I survived all the songs, everything that you read that, that's the one that sticks out as well. I can't believe that, mate. I fucking believe that as well. Well, listen, if you're going to write a song about what happened, you're going to want to make yourself look as bad ass as you can. So why not just say, hey. Exaggerate a bit. You're not going to write a song saying, hey, I was getting my ass kicked and I shot myself in the balls. You're not going to say that. How long after the shooting was Tupac sent to prison because when he was in prison, that's when Sugni approached him to pay for his bail, 1.4 million, if he gives him free albums. Like, how long after the shooting was he sent to prison? Well, there's a considerable amount of time because remember the day after he got shot, here I am saying it, the day after that he was beaten, he has to go to court to face these rape and sexual assault charges. And so he went to jail shortly thereafter and then he was convicted and then he went to, you know, he was going to prison. And so he's languishing away in jail and probably looking back and being pissed off at everybody that he thought was abandoning him, including Biggie. And that's when now Tupac at that time was under inner scope with Jimmy Iovine. Well, death row with Jimmy. So Jimmy was like, hey, I got an idea. Let's see if we can go rescue Tupac and assign him to death row and, you know, make music. And so Sug's like, that's a great idea. We'll be happy to have him. So they went out there and they made a deal to get him out of jail and bring him to the West Coast. Do you think that was the start of Tupac's demise teaming up with, because out of everyone, it looked as if Sug Knight was a proper gangster. He looked like a one who didn't really fuck around. But do you think Tupac obviously wanted a bit of protection as well before when he obviously got beat up in New York? Or what was his, what do you think his method of thinking was teaming up with Sug Knight? Obviously to get the bail money. Sorry, I'm going off track here. But why did Tupac not have his own money to bail himself out? Was he skinned? Now he didn't have his own money to bail himself out. And he didn't have a lawyer that was working on his behalf. Now here comes David Kenner, a very successful criminal defense lawyer and bringing the money that Tupac didn't have himself. And so that combination of a good lawyer, a crafty lawyer and a bunch of money is all needed, is all Tupac needed. And so he makes a deal with the devil, so to speak. I'll do three albums for Death Row and you guys paved the way for me to get out of here because obviously more than anything, Tupac wants to get the hell out of prison. And so that's where that union started. But Tupac's demise started when he began to identify himself, well, I shouldn't say identify himself, but when Tupac began to affiliate himself with the gang activity that was surrounding Death Row, getting involved in assaults and starting to, just be very disrespectful towards his enemies and then beginning to find himself ingratiated with gang members. And so when he began to align himself with these people, that was when the beginning of his demise. Yeah, so for instance, in Las Vegas, Tupac had no business running over in assaulting Orlando Anderson. That was not Tupac's business. That was gang shit that Tupac shouldn't have had anything to do with. And so when he decided to take it upon himself to go and act like he was representing this gang, that's when he made a fatal mistake. What's the rumor? How is the rumor that Peter Day was paying people money to take the chains, the Death Row chains? That's rumor. It's never been substantiated. So there's certainly the people at Death Row and the people within the mob pyro, they believed it to be true. And so they behaved as if it was true because they believed it to be true. Whether it was true or not, that's never been proven. We don't have any firsthand, that I'm aware of, any firsthand evidence that Diddy was actually making these offers of paying for a Death Row chain. I don't know if that's true or not. Peter Day comes across as a professional entrepreneur, just all business, on the forums and documentaries. It looked as if he was trying to sort things out. Do you think Shug Knight plays a part in that by saying he was paying people to take the chains so any one of the bloods could then put it on him and site? No, I don't think so. I just think it was a rumor that started. Again, we don't know exactly where that rumor started, but Shug Knight was going to exacerbate any problem. That's just the nature of Shug Knight. If there's a problem, it's probably gonna get worse if it has anything to do with Shug. These are kids. Diddy was young, he's a young man. It's not the Diddy of 2022. It's the Diddy of 1994, 95 and 96. And so these were young people who oftentimes are caught up in the moment making emotional decisions and then suffering the consequences of them. So just, I think Diddy learned a lot through his own mistakes. What was the real charges of two-pack when he got sent to prison for the rape allegations and sexual assault? You see Viduz, he says he never done anything. It was a touch of the buttocks or something like, what is the true charges that he got sent to prison for? It was for him, it was reduced to sexual assault. Sexual assault. And so it was reduced from like forcible rape to sexual assault. Nonetheless, he was convicted, it was still a felony and was going to do, was looking at significant prison time. But yeah, the charges were reduced from forcible rape and to sexual assault. How, when you started reading up on Shug Knight and stuff, how were you wary of him and what he was capable of? No, I mean, I wasn't, I didn't live in fear of the people we investigated. You're not gonna be a very effective investigator if you're running around in fear of the people that you're investigating. You have to approach it fearlessly and be willing to confront that world. I was never afraid of Shug in the sense that I had to lock my doors or carry a gun or anything like that. But you did recognize the legitimacy of the, of the nature of that beast. But no, I was never in fear of anybody that I investigated. So the night in Las Vegas, Shug, he's on Terage two pack, we're at the Mike Tyson fight, Mike Tyson one, they're going through the lobby. So why did they attack Orlando Anderson? They attacked Orlando Anderson because there had been a prior confrontation between the guy that was with Chupac that night in Las Vegas, a guy named Trayvon Lane and other members of the mob, Payru had been at a mall outside of Los Angeles and they ran into Orlando Anderson and some of Orlando Anderson's Crip friends. They all got into a fight and allegedly the death row medallion that Trayvon Lane was wearing was either was stolen and then recovered immediately during the fight. We're not sure which is the truth. I'm not sure which is the truth. However, there was this conflict and that night in Las Vegas, when Trayvon Lane looks across the lobby of the casino, he sees the same guy that had tried to steal his medallion and he tells Chupac, you know, there's that motherfucker right there that tried to steal my medallion. And then Chupac just took it upon himself to go over there and involve himself in somebody else's business. So they leave, what's the, what happens? What's the steps of events then that lead up to Chupac's death after they leave the casino? They leave the casino, you know, they already knew that they were all going to go to Shugnight's nightclub out in Las Vegas called the 662. Mike Tyson was supposed to make an appearance there and Chupac was going to perform and do some songs there. So it's going to be an after party. And meanwhile, the Crips are all kind of looking at Orlando Anderson, Mike, man, we can't just let this go. You just got your ass kicked in front of a lot of people by a whole, you know, by all of Shugnight's entourage. So they start putting the wheels into motion to go and retaliate. They know where Chupac's going to be. They go and approach a guy who was affiliated with bad boy, at least a guy that was affiliated with Puffy. And they say, hey, you know, we have a beef now. This guy offers to give them a gun. He gives Keefy D, which was Orlando Anderson's uncle with gun. They get into a car and then they set off to find to Park and Shug. So how, obviously there's a lot of conspiracy theories around to Pax mother, LAPD done. It done it itself because of the words that are in these songs. Like there's so much bullshit around this case. That is intriguing as well. That nearly 30 years later, we're still talking about it because it is still high profile. Nobody's ever had a conviction. Like what was your, see before when you started working on the case between 96 and 98 because Orlando Anderson was never convicted was there much evidence against him then? Well, there is circumstantial evidence against him then. We knew that he was the person with the motive. You know, he had just gotten assaulted by Tupac. And so there was always the obvious motive that, hey, this is probably the guy that came back and retaliated. But keep in mind, and this was, this happened in Las Vegas, not Los Angeles. And so there was never a conspiracy that LAPD was involved in Tupac's murder because that doesn't make any sense. We, the LAPD had nothing, no connection to that. He was killed in Las Vegas. So the really two prominent theories was that Shugnaite either had it done because he believed that Tupac was about ready to leave death row. And he figured, well, he's worth more to me dead than alive if he's going to leave. That was one of the early theories. It didn't really make any sense on the face of it because surely Shugnaite's not going to hire guys to tribe up and shoot directly at him hoping to hit Tupac instead. So that theory is really always kind of weak. The more likely theory was that these Crips that had just been involved in a fight with Tupac came back and retaliated. And we now know that that is exactly what happened after we got the confession of key FED. But there was circumstantial evidence. There was reports of a white Cadillac being used. There was an association with these Southside Crips in a white Cadillac. We had the videotaped beating of Orlando Anderson that occurred when Tupac assaulted him. So there was that type of evidence, but we had no really strong eyewitness evidence pointing the finger directly at Orlando. And that's why Las Vegas law enforcement were unable to really make any real progress with it. Nobody was cooperating. Everybody wanted to handle it on the streets. And I don't know how this is over in the UK, but in the street culture, in the game culture, in the United States, they have a code that you just don't cooperate with law enforcement. We'll try to figure this out on our own and we'll handle it on our own. And so that's why both of these cases essentially weren't solved because the people that were in a position to know things weren't able to or were unwilling to help. Did Shugnite get shot in the head as well? Or is that another myth? No, it's kind of a myth. He, a piece of shrapnel or a fragment of a bullet went under the skin in the back of his neck. It wasn't like a bullet directly entered his head and was lodged there. It was a piece of metal from a shrapnel. Whether that shrapnel was from the door, whether it was a piece of the bullet that had fragmented off. I'm not sure. Shug claims that the metal is still in his head. I don't know what the truth of that is, but I'm very confident that he didn't take a bullet in the head. So when Tupac gets killed in 1996, was the police expecting an uproar and a retaliation from Tupac's side in Shugnite? Or did everything kind of calm down a bit? Well, you know, the police in Las Vegas are still trying to figure things out in the days ensuing after Tupac's shooting. Tupac's alive in the hospital. They're trying to figure out who shot this guy. And it's not a murder yet. It's just an attempted murder. But before they're even able to kind of wrap their head around what's taking place with these crews and with these conflicts, the war has already started in Compton. The Crips and Bloods have already decided to take this to the next level back on the streets of Compton. And that's where a bunch of shootings are taking place now as a result of Tupac's shooting. The kind of a little war between these two factions was completely underway. I watched that interview with Napoleon and he says that it was Tupac's mom who switched off the Life Support Machines Act, correct? Yes, she decided that, no, Tupac was, listen, even if he survived, Tupac's career was over and so far is his rapping. They had to remove one of his lungs and in order to keep him alive, that Tupac was never going to be the same person even if he had survived that assault. Unless he figured out how to wrap with one lung that in practically speaking, his rap career was over. And so, you know, but Tupac was a strong guy. He was very creative. What he would have done with himself is anybody's guess. I'm confident he would have become successful in some area, but I just don't know if it would have been, you know, singing. Yeah, his mom saw that he was just circling the drain. You know, they had to do intercardiac massages three times, cracked his chest open, removed a lung. They had to sit there and massage his heart in order to keep it beating. And they were just keeping him alive, synthetically. And so his mom realized like, this is no life. This is no way, my son won't want to live like this. This is what I believe went through her head. And she says, I don't want to have a son that lives his life on life support. So she pulled, she decided not to resuscitate him after his heart stopped again. How was Snoop Dogg when he showed up at the hospital? Was he welcomed? Because I know him and Tupac fell out beforehand. Did they not? When he showed up at the hospital? Yeah, when Tupac showed up. I think everybody was so focused on Tupac and his recovery and figuring out what happened. I think they were kind of setting the beef aside. I don't know if that beef between Snoop and Tupac was ever that big of a thing. They might have had disagreements or whatever, but it wasn't the kind of beef that was gonna result in some type of internal violence at death row records. So now I think Snoop was just there to offer his support and everybody was leaning on each other, hoping that Tupac was gonna recover. So once Tupac dies, Shug Knight is then recalled to prison for nine years, but did Shug Knight not get in contact with Orlando Anderson to go to court for him, to then give evidence against him and say that Shug Knight never done anything to stop him from going to prison? Which did Shug Knight not offer money, like 50 grand to Orlando Anderson to be a witness for him? Yes, and so now after the assault on Orlando Anderson, which involved Shug Knight, he's seen clearly on the video camera assaulting. Now Shug Knight was on probation. And so he was getting his probation violated. So as that issue is unfolding, Tupac's dead, Tupac dies six days after being shot. Shug Knight is now trying to stay out of jail himself. He's just lost his number one artist. He's struggling to keep death row above water because of all of the drama that surrounded it. His gang's at war in Compton, and he's trying to stay out of jail. So he says, listen, the primary witness against me, Orlando Anderson, can also be my savior if I can get him to take the stand and retract his statement. So he offers Orlando Anderson money, Orlando Anderson accepts it, Orlando Anderson goes on the stand and denies that Shug Knight assaulted him, even though everybody can see as clear as day right there on the video that Shug Knight is in fact kicking him. So the judge says, hey Orlando Anderson, you're full of shit. And he convicts, he violates Shug's probation. So yeah, it's just Orlando, it just kind of shows you the nature of Orlando Anderson. He's willing to sit there and murder Tupac and then completely turn around and testify on behalf of his enemy, which is Shug Knight. So this is just some street shit that shouldn't surprise anybody if you know the nature of these people that live and die within these gang cultures. Yeah, that's so messy, like for the man who's killed Tupac, but then Shug Knight to be in contact from his stand and I can understand, he doesn't want to go to prison. Did that ever raise question marks that Shug Knight could have possibly paid Orlando Anderson to kill Tupac? There was some speculation on that, but it didn't carry much weight. You know, if Shug wanted Tupac shot, he had his own guys that could do that. He didn't have to go to some rival gang. It makes no sense for him to go and say, well, listen, I hate you guys, I know you're our enemies, we're at war with you. Hey, do me a favor, come kill my number one guy. It just makes no sense on the face of it. He had his, if that's what he wanted to do, he would have just hired, he would have asked his own people to go and take care of that. So when Tupac passes away, is it true that Biggie was broken hearted, crying and really upset that he was dead? Evidently, that's the story. And I believe it to be true. I think Biggie was kind of an unweighting pawn in all of this. And although Biggie did some things that kind of exacerbated the problem, I don't think Biggie ever wanted to see any harm to anybody. And, you know, just recently, little Cece did an interview and he's describing what Biggie's emotional state was after Tupac was killed. And he said that Biggie was just absolutely broken hearted. That Biggie was truly, you know, in mourning over what had happened to Tupac. Obviously, Pete, I think kind of goes onto the radar, but was he ever involved in anything? Was he maybe a mastermind behind some certain things? Or was he just trying to keep everybody at peace? Because did he not reach out to Islam to try and squash the beef between Peter Day and Shugnaite as well? Yeah, that's the story that Peter Day, he kind of wanted to squash the beef. You know, he wanted to make music. He wanted to produce music. He wanted to make money. He wanted to, you know, broaden the horizons at Bad Boy Records. So yeah, that's the story is that he wanted to squash it. Shug wasn't interested in squashing it. And so it just continued to fester and lead to more and more conflict. But I think that Puffy's primary objective was to avoid all of this to the best that he could and just make music. And then on top of this, you know, you've got these young guys and they've got egos and Shugnaite's trying to open up Death Row East in New York, which is Puffy's backyard. Puffy wants Bad Boy West in Los Angeles, which is Shug's backyard. And so now they're encroaching on each other's territories. There's shootings taking place between their crews and it just got out of control. And they were too young and dumb to figure out how to avoid the inevitable, which is the murder of Tupac and Biggie. So the Tupac has just been murdered. The case is still ongoing. Six months later, Biggie is murdered. Does that then drill fear into the place expecting another retaliation? How does, like, because it's still unsolved in Vegas, six months later, was Biggie ever warned that his life was in danger or was it unexpected or what was the full scenario? Why it happened to Biggie first of all? Well, obviously after Biggie, I'm sorry, after Tupac is shot, the conflict takes it place. Back on the streets of Compton and there's a war going on. Shug Knight, obviously now has lost not only his bodyguard, Jake Robles, after the shooting in Atlanta, now he's lost Tupac in Las Vegas. And for all intent and purposes, they're kind of losing the war. And so he knows that he has to answer for the murder of Tupac. And so he said, for the murder of Tupac. And so he sets things in motion in order to have Biggie killed. Now, keep in mind after Tupac was shot in Las Vegas, a rumor started. And very much like the rumor of these chains. Hey, listen, I'll give you $10,000. Puffy's offering $10,000 if you get a death row change. Well, that rumor becomes reality on the streets. And it's just like after Tupac is shot in Vegas, rumor starts that Biggie had been in Vegas, that Biggie had hired the Southside Crips, that Biggie had provided the gun to kill Tupac. And so that rumor becomes reality. And so now Biggie gets targeted because of this bad information that the streets accept as true information. And so that's how Biggie got himself in the middle of it. And Bad Boy Records had a false sense of security coming back to Los Angeles so soon because A, Tupac's gone. B, Shugknight's in jail. And so they figure, hey, the streets are clear. The beef is over and they come here with a false sense of security and they made that fatal mistake. When was the Soul Train Awards? Was that before Biggie, Tupac's death or after? When Shugknight was on the stage, giving it Westside and... Yeah, that was before Tupac was murdered. Yeah, so that fueled a lot of things as well because that's when things went kind of all over the news, newspapers, that he's... Yeah, you've got Shugknight publicly disrespecting Biggie, I'm sorry, Shugknight publicly disrespecting Puffy and Bad Boy in New York. And so again, this is just young guys with big egos kicking and screaming at each other and it just spiraled out of control. Where does Kevin Gaines and Frank Ligak, I come into this, took police officers? Did one of them not get killed? Were they? Was Kevin Lanez not having an affair with one of Shugknight's girlfriends? I don't know if you'd call it an affair. They were having a relationship. She was estranged. This is Sharitha Knight. She was estranged from Shug. They weren't really dating, even though she was still involved in some death row activities as an administrator, so to speak. She was still kind of managing Snoop and so she starts dating this cop named Kevin Gaines and they have a relationship going on. Well, aside from everything, because Kevin Gaines had nothing to do with death row. He had nothing to do with death row security. He had nothing to do with anything other than he's dating Sharitha Knight. Well, he gets into a road rage incident with another off-duty cop named Frank Ligak and they pull guns on each other. Frank pulls his trigger first and kills Kevin Gaines. So that's an isolated incident of road rage between two off-duty LAPD officers. And, well, Frank Ligak was actually on duty, but he was undercover. And so that, it's an isolated incident, but people try to connect that somehow to death row records or connect it somehow to these murders and it's just a bunch of nonsense. Yeah, so does that elephant too, was the case? Yeah, had nothing to do with anything. That shooting was an isolated incident between two guys that bumped into each other on the street. Neither of them knew the other one was a cop and one thing led to another and one of them ended up dead. So when Biggie gets murdered, then what's the procedure after that? Why has it took so long for two high-profile names killed on the streets to then unsolved? Does that put a lot of pressure then on police department to then try and get answers? Yeah, I mean, obviously, you're always trying to figure out what happened. I mean, that's your goal as a homicide investigator is to try to figure out what happened. But when people aren't cooperating or you're not getting the information that you need in order to solve the case, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. You can't force people to talk. You can't put them into a room and water boredom. And so if people don't cooperate, it's gonna be very difficult to solve a case. And when you're dealing with gangs in the gang culture, they don't cooperate for all intent and purpose. And so the majority of gang crimes in Los Angeles go unsolved for that reason. These just happen to be a couple of high-profile guys whose names are demand a lot of public attention, but it's just gang nonsense. And it's oftentimes the case that you don't solve gang crimes. Do you think if two-part and bigger were still living longer, do you think gang violence would have got worse because then it's divided? It's not just divided. A few gangs, like a few people in the gang are talking thousands and thousands. Do you think violence would have erupted more if those two were still alive? No, I mean, obviously it got worse because they were dead. I mean, there would never have been a war between the mob pyroos and the South Side grips if two-part could not been shot and killed. So their deaths actually made it worse. I'm sorry, the gang violence, the localized gang violence between the gangs that were affiliated with those two record labels, it got worse. Now had they survived, then who's to say what would have? Maybe they figure out a way to squash the beef. Maybe they figure out a way to work things out. Who knows? It's really difficult to try to speculate what would have happened if they survived. So the two-part mud that you've solved, but how did you solve that with Keef BD? How does he come in to play with? He's not up for getting sent for a live sentence, but you just made them a deal. Is that correct? Yeah, we made a deal with Keef BD. He confessed to his role in the murder of Tupac. He said he was in Las Vegas. He's the one that got the gun. He's the one that was in the car with his nephew. He's the one that handed the gun to his nephew and the nephew leaned out the window and shot Tupac. So that's all pretty much cut and clear. That's the generally accepted explanation for Tupac's murder. But with Keef BD, we had made a deal with him that if he told us the truth about that, that we would take consideration into all the drug charges that he was facing. And so that's what happened. He made a deal and told us the story of what happened, confessed to it. But within that deal, in law, I'm sorry, in American law enforcement, we have what's known as a proffer agreement. And this is where a defendant, a potential defendant can agree to cooperate with the authorities under the understanding that you can't use what he's saying against him. You can use what he's saying against others. If other people provide you evidence against that person, you can use that. But you can't use his self-incriminating statements. It's part of our kind of like a fifth amendment type of protection. So that's the agreement. We're like, hey, Keef BD, we really wanna know what happened. If you tell us what happened, whatever you tell us won't be used against you. That was how that went. But then he goes out and starts to publicly talk about his involvement. He writes a book, he does interviews. None of that information is protected and can be used against him and should be used against him. But thus far, Las Vegas just doesn't feel like they can successfully prosecute a case where the defendant is also the only witness against the same defendant, which is himself. It's very complicated. Yeah, with you. So did he ever go to prison, Keef BD? He's been to prison several times. Yeah, did he go after they made the deal, though? Or to get his sentence cut down? Or was the deal, tell us what you know and you'll not go to prison? No, that wasn't the deal. The deal was that just cooperate us and we'll take into consideration these charges against you. Ultimately, the United States Attorney's Office never filed the drug charges against him. However, Keef BD did go to jail, not, you know, I think a couple of years after this confession, he ended up getting caught with a gun in some, I think at the time, marijuana, when marijuana was still illegal. And he did a short prison term as a result of that. But he's never faced, he's never went to jail for the drug charges that we brought him in on in order to gain his cooperation. How accurate do you believe his story, Keef BD? I believe the story he told us was 100% accurate. And so when you think then you've solved the case which has been going on for many years, what year was this, Craig? So that would have been late 2008, early 2009. Yeah, so again, what he was telling us was just the obvious. Like, it was always obvious that Orlando Anderson was the likely assailant against Tupac. So when Keef BD tells us this, it's not a big revelation. It's just like, okay, yeah, well, obviously, that's the story. But now we had an eyewitness and co-conspirator actually telling us what the story was. So now we're going to Biggie's murder case where was it Shug Knight who paid, is it Poochie? Poochie, yeah. Yeah, so what's Shug Knight's association to Poochie? Who has Poochie's here, Triggan Man? Yeah, Poochie was a known trigger man. He was a known, he was a gang member, used to hang out with Shug to some degree. He was a person that a lot of people understood to be a shooter. He had been involved in other shootings. He has wanted in other murders and he definitely fit the profile of somebody who would have done this type of thing for Shug Knight. So then we get another female or we get another co-conspirator who was involved in the deal to have Biggie murdered. And that was Shug Knight's girlfriend and she tells us, listen, Shug asked me to hire Poochie to kill Biggie in retaliation for the murder of Tupac. I went and I met with Poochie. Poochie agreed to do it. There was an agreement over money and that set everything in motion. So there's three people. You got Shug Knight, Poochie and the girlfriend and the three of them conspired to kill Biggie. So they wait, everybody knew where Biggie was. He's in Los Angeles. He's showing up around town and the information about him going to the Peterson Auto Museum, the night he shot becomes common knowledge. So Poochie goes there and whether there may have been another co-conspirator, we just don't know if Poochie was operating alone or not that night. In the next thing you know, Biggie's getting shot. How hard is that for you, Greg, that Alando Anderson is dead, Poochie's dead? Do you think you'll ever really get any closure towards Tupac and Biggie case? A conviction even. Well, I have closure. I mean, I'm completely convinced that these two guys were responsible for the murders. And if you look at justice through an eye for an eye, then perfect justice prevailed. They were both killed in the same way that they killed Tupac and Biggie. They were both shot down in the streets. So, you know, that's closure for me. But whether the public ever gets closure, that's a different question. There's never going to be a judicial, there's never gonna be a judicial reckoning where people go to court ever. It's 25 years later, almost everybody's dead. And so they're never gonna get closure if they're waiting to see somebody get convicted. Did you ever reach out to Shug Knight and have a discussion with him on a chat? Do you think he would ever speak to you? No, Shug Knight's not ever gonna sit down and tell the truth to law enforcement. You gotta understand who Shug Knight is and the nature of Shug Knight. I mean, Shug Knight is about Shug Knight. Shug Knight's about Shug Knight only. He doesn't give a shit about justice. He doesn't give a shit about honoring Tupac's memory by helping the police solve that. He doesn't give a shit about biggie, smalls. Shug Knight's never going to quote unquote do the right thing because Shug Knight's not that kind of person. Shug Knight's a bad person whose intention is to do everything he can for himself, even at the expense of others. So Shug Knight, he seemed to have got away with a lot of things. Do you think he had paid police officers working for him? Well, yeah, but not that got him out of trouble. I mean, Shug Knight's got out of trouble because he had really good lawyers. That's really what kept Shug Knight above water for a long time. But then ultimately his Shug Knight's karma, so to speak, caught up with him. And he's on video running a guy over on a conflict that he helped to exacerbate. He created an issue. That issue led to a confrontation. That confrontation led to him running somebody over. He ran two people over actually, but he killed one. And so Shug Knight's past caught up with him and he should be in prison. And he should be in prison for the rest of his life if you think about all the things that he did. But regarding the officers that he was affiliated with, he wasn't really affiliated with cops. His head of security, who was an ex-cop, hired cops to work security at death row. And so he had cops that were moonlighting, but Shug's real security was his gang members. The cops were just there as kind of exterior security, visual security, but when things had to get handled, he didn't use the cops ability, he used his gang members to do it. Shug Knight didn't, it's not like Shug Knight trusted cops to be his confidants and to do his dirty work. He didn't need them, nor would he have trusted him to do that. You have Reggie Wright Jr., who has the security company and of course, who's he gonna hire? He's gonna hire his buddies and the people that he knows from law enforcement who can carry guns legally as part of the protective wing of death row records. The gang members can't carry guns legally. How did, why did Shug Knight say injected EZE with AIDS? How is that another meff of just remorse? I think it's ridiculous on the face of it. I mean, come on. Of course, that rumors out there, that myth is out there, people believe it, but I mean, let's, you know, let's get reasonable. Shug Knight's gonna go inject him with AIDS. Come on. Greg, I'm not gonna fucking bullshit your brother. I believed all that. No, Jesus. I know, mate. We're only in the UK watching it and seeing the documentaries and watching all the stuff and like, why would you go on live team and see that? Humans is a human, you kinda, you think it's a bit far-fetched, but it's always question marks in it. That's why, oh, this ain't just about Biggie and Tupac. There's so many different people connected from this. It's so messy, but it's still so intriguing that I still listen to Tupac music to this day. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, when you're on the outside looking in, yeah, you can, a lot of this can kind of lead you to believe that all of these fantastic things happen and all of these sophisticated type of, you know, organized. Yeah. It's not that way, man. These are just gangsters acting like gangsters and getting away with a lot because of the gang world that they live in that protects itself. It's, some of this stuff just gets really insanely strange. And that's all I can say about it. I mean, all of this is really pretty simple. None of these guys are rocket scientists, which is why most of them are either dead or in jail. And, you know, it's just the culture of that time, but no, you know, and going and getting a syringe full of AIDS and sneaking up and freaking easy with it. It's like, come on, that's not the way this show works. Yeah. But as a conspiracy theory mindset as well, where you're thinking that did he not be easy up though to sign a contract? And then because the AIDS came so quick that people are saying it's because it was injected into his system so quick. So in my mind, I'm thinking, shit, that stuff with that America's nuts. So it's crazy here in the UK, Greg, America's at that fucking level, man. He's a psychopath. So well, we do. We have our share of psychopaths. There's no doubt about that. But yeah, I mean, you can you can this is what happens with conspiratorial thinking is that you just like, oh, here's this and here's this. And well, they must have something to do with each other. So let's connect them and then develop a theory where this has something to do with this. It's often not the case. These are just, you know, there's there's coincidences that happen. There's, you know, you can you can connect. You can you can put dots on a piece of paper and draw and connect those and make a thousand different pictures, you know, depending on how you want to connect the dots. And and this is the problem with conspiratorial thinking is that they see a bunch of dots. They try to figure out how to force fit them to work together to draw a picture that they've already formed in their mind. And that's just not how investigations work. That's not how truth works. And so, you know, we have to deal with facts and evidence. And when things don't fit, then you you set them aside. Pete, I did the T not come out and call you a liar for something. I don't know if it was that strong. I mean, obviously, Pete Diddy is going to you know, Pete Diddy is not going to step up and say, OK, listen, all this shit's true. Of course, he's not going to do that. Who would in his position, you know? So, yeah, he's I think that Pete Diddy is. If he did, he really thought I was a liar. It would have been very easy for him to have his attorney go down to the courthouse and file a defamation lawsuit against me. I think Pete Diddy knows that what I'm saying is true. I also add the caveat that I think Pete Diddy was in over his head. He was caught up in a situation that he couldn't control. He made some bad decisions and I don't think Pete Diddy was out there trying to get anybody hurt. I don't think he was out there trying to get anybody murdered. I don't think he understood exactly the nature of the beast that he was dealing with. And when he's dealing with these gang members, he doesn't fully aware of what they are capable of a or B willing to do by way of just a casual conversation. So if he's telling these guys, like, shit, I'm up to my neck. We should night in Tupac and, you know, they're trying to hunt me down and I'm scared and I don't know what to do. And I wish somebody to take care of these and will you guys take care of this for me? I'll do whatever you need. Just know that kind of desperate talking, not actually believing or wanting or intending that these things would be carried out. I don't think that Pete Diddy wanted Tupac murdered in any way, shape or form, but he's dealing with people who are willing to do that type of thing. And then when one of them gets assaulted, they're like, hey, you know what, Diddy kind of wants this done. We're going to do it anyways, because we just had our guy get his ass kicked. So we have to retaliate. If there's an added benefit of, you know, helping the puffy out. Then that's that's that's all that happened. How long did you stay on the case for Greg? A little over just three years. 2006 to 2009. Was that your biggest case on soul? No, no, actually not. I worked in another case that was even more complicated, another high profile case, and not me, but a team of people. And it was a much longer case as a case that had been investigated years and years and years and years. So no, but it was the most notable case as far as notoriety. The big two-part cases were the most popular as far as the public perception. Yeah, because you wrote the books at Murder Rap. Yeah. Yeah. More murder back. And they turn that into films and documentaries, the 10-part series on Netflix. Correct. It's amazing, though, that it's still it's amazing footage as well. It is so intriguing that, like I've said, that people are still so intrigued by it because there isn't any conviction that can you still understand that as well? That you might have all the answers. But for people looking at the outside, there's still so many conspiracies out there, like two packs living in Cuba. And like, all the telltale signs where the Machiavelli that he comes back from the dead. And it is very appealing. Can you still understand that or are you just going straight detective and no, let's shut up, let's just pure bullshit? Well, I can do both. I mean, I realize that there's, you know, a lot of people out there that are, you know, attaching themselves to conspiracy theories. And there's people that are out there thinking two packs alive. There's people that are out there thinking that should kill two pack. There's people that are out there thinking the government killed two pack. There's people that are out there thinking the police killed biggie. So, you know, there's all of these different points of view. I know what I know and I believe what I believe. And so I'm settled with that. And I speak about that, you know, whenever I'm asked to. But I'm I'm completely at peace with the whole thing. It's an unfortunate set of circumstances. I'm glad Orlando and and and Pucci were held accountable, at least in a divine way. You know, that they they've suffered the consequences of their actions. And so I'm I'm cool with it. But if people want to attach themselves and have never ending conspiracy theories that are constantly changing and modifying 25 years later, you know, you can't control that. You ought to let people be who they're going to be and believe what they want to believe and accept that they're never going to convince everybody of the truth. Did you ever speak to two packs? Mama Biggie's mom when you were investigating the case? Yeah, I spoke with Biggie's mom several times. And she seems to raise women. She's beautiful. She's wonderful. Lauren, she's really she's she's really kind of the last standing victim in all of this. Yeah, it must be tough, though. That you see the video of Biggie's funeral and everybody out in the street and playing his music like you forgetting the victims, even though people are still so intrigued, you're forgetting about the mums and the family members and friends who were so close to these individuals like such such a big case like such big cases. Like what was the the Rampart scandal as well, Greg? Like the four hundred million. What was that? How was that involved in these cases? Yeah, the Rampart scandal had nothing to do with this. It was an independent thing. It had to do with some guys like that were out there putting themselves above the law cops that were dirty. The Rampart scandal was this umbrella idea that there was this whole group of people. Well, you know, once the smoke cleared, it came down to really just a couple of people that were bad apples and they were exposed and they were sent to prison and held accountable and lost their jobs. And so Rampart scandal is independent, isolated, somewhat event in the history of the LAPD, the four hundred million dollar thing. That came up in Biggie's case. That had nothing to do with the Rampart scandal. That was just a number that was thrown out there by a judge during a pretrial hearing where the judge is like, well, if any of these allegations prove to be true, this would be the amount of money that possibly could be charged against the city. And so, yeah, but of course, that lawsuit fell apart, too. And there was never a dime paid in as a result of that lawsuit against the city. In fact, the attorneys for the Leto Wallace retracted their lawsuit because they were tired of wasting money chasing false narratives. The ever think there'll be something as big as this between two hip hop stars? Like, I know the game in 50 cent kind of had a bit of beef. Was there ever a concern that the Krover opted the way it did with Biggie and Tupac? Well, I think that people in the industry kind of learned a lesson from Biggie and Tupac. Say, man, listen, sometimes we can, you know, create controversy and that controversy sells records. And so we can, you know, so they started doing like fake beefs, actually, where rappers and stuff would kind of coordinate beefs in order to give the impression public like, oh, the game is beefing with this guy or whatever. But I think that the industry learned also like, hey, we've got to be real careful that this doesn't get taken too far because look at the consequences. You know, look at how this affected this record company. Look at how this affected this record company when it's two artists, it's two primary artists are shot and killed. And then we lose this talent and we lose the potential that they have to produce more stuff down the road. So I think the industry started to realize like that. Look how quickly this got out of hand with, you know, bad boy records and death row records. Let's try to avoid that. I mean, I'm hoping that's the mindset of C. Are your mate becoming out of retirement again, Greg? No, not me, man. I'm done. When I left the police department, I never looked back. You know, it had served its purpose for my life. You know, I did 25 years. I worked on some great cases. I had a great career. I got a great pension and then a new chapter opened. So now I'm in that chapter and I don't look back. And I certainly would never jump back into that world as, you know, professionally as an investigator with an agency. Although I do have my own private investigations company. So it kind of sounds a little bit contradictory, but, you know, just the bureaucracy and the red tape and the politics of policing these days. And not just these days, but even back then, it wears you down. And once you're liberated from that, it's hard to imagine ever going back to working under those conditions again. Yeah, like I said, you've done an amazing career, man. You've done a lot of good as well. In the world, Greg, that you look back at two-pack. I watch his old videos when it was an actor and a poet and some of his songs are really powerful to this day. It's sad to then go down that other route. And because he thought he was a gangster when he wasn't. And do you think that's because he was surrounding himself by gangsters as well, that he just tried to put the act on like he was acting that part? You know, I think that had Tupac, again, as I mentioned earlier, if he had survived that shooting, it's going to be a different Tupac. It's going to be a Tupac that is physically going to be living a much more challenging life, you know, trying to live life with one lung and having to try to recover from the effects of that shooting. So had he lived, it would have been really, really interesting to see what he would have done with himself. And if Biggie had lived, it would have been interesting to see what he had done with himself. And it's just too bad that those guys couldn't rectify their issues and those labels didn't rectify their issues before these events happened. So I don't know to answer your question, James, I would have loved to have met Tupac after learning who he was and trying to understand him and putting myself in the middle of this conflict, trying to understand what happened. I would have loved to have met both of them. And I, you know, I obviously developed a newfound appreciation for the music and the talent that was involved. But it is what it is. You know, you can't change history, so to speak. And so you got to just appreciate them in the legacies that they've left behind. Yeah, can you understand the music now in some of the lyrics that why people can relate to them so much? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm more sensitive to what they were trying to say, what that voice is trying to say and understanding it, not always agreeing with it, but at least understanding it. And yeah, so it's been a privilege to work on their cases. I wish I never had to. But it is, you know, since it happened, I feel like I was privileged to be able to work on their cases and to bring some resolution to them. Yeah, how does that change your life, Greg, then, for being a detective, trying to solve crimes, to then being a celebrity, basically, because everybody then wants a piece of you because you were known worldwide, working on the biggest unsolved cases on the planet, let everybody know what the case was. But how does that then change your life, to then people want to interview you and make documentaries and books? So is that a good thing? Obviously, it's a good thing because you're creating awareness. It's a business as well. But how does that change your life and try to be under the radar to then being in the limelight? Well, that was a process. There's a learning curve there. Typically, when you are working on cases, you try to keep that information close to the vest. You try to protect your investigation. You don't want to get compromised. So you keep things very closed. And then now, all of a sudden, you're on the other end where you're sharing all the information with everybody. And so there was a learning curve to figure out how to engage and responsibly try to do this as responsible as possible and as respectfully as possible. But the benefit is I get to meet great people. I've got to meet just like today. Here, I'm going to be talking to a guy on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean who's sitting in the middle of what, it's like eight o'clock at night for you right now. I just woke up. I'm having my coffee. It's a lot of fun. And some of the people that you meet now become long-term friends. You know, I have a lot of friends now that I've met only as a result of this investigation. And so it's added to the quality of my life. But obviously, it's at the expense of two people. And so it's bittersweet. But I'm thankful that the conversation is still being had. I'm thankful that people still care enough about these two gentlemen to want to talk about it and learn about it. So it's been an interesting journey. But like you said, it's mostly positive. Yeah. So let's go a full round up on it all, Greg. What's all the evidence you have and everything that you've got on the full two-pack and biggie murder? Yeah. So the, I think the two-pack and biggie murder, I'm sorry, the two-pack murder is pretty clear. For any rational thinking person, you can look at the facts and the evidence and the information. You're going to draw the same conclusion. Is that Tupac put himself in a position where he shouldn't have been. He got himself involved in gang activity. That gang activity ultimately came back and bite him on the ass and got him killed. Orlando Anderson shot and killed Tupac Shakur on September 7th, 1996 in Las Vegas. Orlando Anderson is your murderer. Biggie was killed as a retaliation of that. And biggie should night hired a guy named Poochie to go and kill biggie and retaliation for the shooting of Tupac. And whether or not Poochie operated alone is the one unknown. We don't know that. There's a good chance that there is somebody else involved, but we've never positively identified that person. But Poochie, should night in a female girlfriend of should nights all conspired to kill biggie. That's where all the evidence points. That's where all the facts are the idea that there's this other conspiracy with police officers. When you really understand the ingredients of that claim and that conspiracy, it all falls apart. But people tend to want to believe it. They like the idea because it's a bigger story. It's more scandalous and sensational. So a lot of people want to accept that, but they don't understand how investigations work. They don't understand why that isn't a plausible explanation anymore. And so that's where we're at with it. I'm settled with that being the truth. That is the truth I'm going to continue to promote. And again, like I'm coming over to the UK, hopefully in May and going on a speaking tour and I'll be putting those facts and evidence up on the board for people to evaluate. And whereas your tour will touch on that now, I'll put that at the very start as well, Greg, so people can get involved. So your tour, how many countries are you doing? How many cities are you doing in the UK? We're doing eight, I think seven cities, two in London. We're starting in Scotland. I think Edinburgh is the first city. And then from Edinburgh, let me pull this up real quick. All right. So Glasgow. That's where I'm from, brother. Yeah, man. I'll see you first. Yeah, you'll see me first. Yeah, you got a catch up. I want to get a proper catch up, bro. I'll get you some good Scottish food. Good, perfect. And what about good Scottish beer? You have that? Mate, whiskey, mate. You'll fucking blow the tits off you. You're better drinking that after the show. Or you won't make the rest of the tour. Okay. Yeah. So Glasgow had a place called the Platform at the Arches, I guess, Platform at the Arches. That's on, so that's on May 10th. And then Edinburgh on May 12th. And then Manchester May 14th. And then Birmingham. And then a couple nights in London. So all of this happens in middle of May. And it looks like we're going to do eight different locations or eight different speaking engagements. So it's going to be great. I can't wait. I hope that I hope that we can make it. Yeah, you as well. Everything's starting to open up here. Can you send me the link as well? So I can leave it in the description, Greg. Sure, absolutely. Yeah, just before we finish up, brother. The two parking buggies, Mum, meet each other. They spoke to each other the night. Come face to face. That's a great question. And I should know that, but I don't. I'm assuming that they at the very least talked. I'm confident that they have talked before. I don't know that they've ever met face to face. Obviously, we lost Afini Shakur a couple of years ago. She's no longer around. Valetta Wallace is still alive. But, you know, she's been kind of, she's got some of her own health issues. I don't know if they've ever met face to face to answer your question. And last question. Do you think Shugnait can ever get done for conspiracy to Mudda? No, I don't think Shugnait's ever going to get charged for conspiracy to commit murder. The only person that could really testify him at this point, testify against him at this point is his girlfriend. I don't think that she's ever going to be willing to do that. And even if she did, she has her own credibility issues because she's got a long criminal history of her own. So it wouldn't be a very likely prosecution. So I don't think that Shugnait will ever be held accountable for his role in Biggie's murder in a court of law. But I hope that he is held accountable in some other way. You know, I hope that the universe will hold him accountable. And perhaps that's why he's probably going to die in prison as a result of the case that he's incarcerated in for now. No, just that I'm looking forward to meeting you in person. I appreciate you having me on the podcast today. And I appreciate the conversation. I really do. And I think this conversation is still going to be being had 10 years from now. Yeah, definitely. It's such a powerful case because it is still unsolved and through the court system. Like it's just mega, like the UK is mega that you'll see that here when you go to your shows that people will love them. And we'll make sure we promote this well as well on all my social media platforms. But once you're in Glasgow, we'll get a catch up. I'll take you to get some good food. And it'll be good to see you, brother. But thank you for coming on today and being so early because I know you only had a few hours later. I thoroughly, I genuinely appreciate it and thoroughly enjoyed your conversation. But God bless you, brother. And I'll give you a message. Send me the links as well, please. And we'll catch you up in your in Glasgow, brother. I appreciate you, James. Thank you very much, man. Have a great day. And now we'll see you in a few months. Yeah, yeah. God bless you, Greg. All right, buddy. Thanks a lot. Take care. Bye.