 Six Junction City Council and Local Cannabis Commission meeting for Wednesday, February 22nd. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, Roche. Do we have any agenda additions or changes for tonight? Do we want to add in the email from Jess updating us from the audit on the management and what are the other words? Jess, what is it called? The management, what she said. So, yes, if we add in the MD&A, MD&A, MD&A, the MD&A under 6B. Anything else? If not, entertain a motion to amend the agenda. So moved. Second. Thank you, George. Thank you, Roche. Any further discussion? Hearing none, all in favor, please signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Supposedly say nay. Great. Thank you. And moving on to public to be heard. So this is the portion of tonight's meeting where if there are any members of the public who wish to talk to the board about something that's not on the agenda, now is the time to do so. As far as things that are on the agenda, please wait until that comes up and we will make sure that you have time to ask questions and talk about whatever it is that's concerning you. So we'll start with those in the room here. Does anybody have anything that's not on the agenda you'd like to talk about? Okay. Moving to... Maybe, sorry. I don't want to point. I'm not sure it's on the agenda tonight, but I'm here to advocate for the senior center, our space. We have heard rumors, you know, that we were being displaced and so we are worried about that. And I've talked individually with the council members and we've received reports that we're not being displaced. But it sure would be nice to have it in a minute on the record. Yep. Happy to help ensure you all in any way, shape or form that we possibly can. As I had mentioned at our last budget hearing that we had a few weeks ago, and I've shared other places, our council here has been absolutely committed to continuing the senior center as it has been. We need to contractually in a way, if you will, through the end of the calendar year 2023. And then for the next six months after that, we have included within the budget to make sure that we have the funds to be able to continue the senior center. And that's as far as we can go into the future in terms of the power that we have. Everything beyond that is up to next year's board. So yes, it's there. Yes. Can I make one comment? I think that it's possible, you know, we've been talking about eventually we are going to have to renovate this entire space. We don't know, we can't say, because we don't really have a firm plan yet. And we don't know if it's going to include the senior center. If that were the case, then yeah, you would probably either depending how long have to be moved out of there or just closed off for a while while the renovations occurred. But as I said, there's no firm, there's no firm plan yet for any of that that's going to be taking place later this year. I don't know if that's been some of the source of the rumors that somehow got translated into us saying we're going to shut down the senior center. I don't know, but that is an issue that we are, they are going to have to this coming year begin to look at a plan. But that those renovations are probably a year or more away. And as Andrew said, it's it's sort of beyond way out beyond the scope of what we can control at this point. And that that space to may end up being shared at different parts of the day. We're not and I don't think and I just want to be as clear as we can. We're really not in a position to leave space vacant at all. So if for instance, the activities end at 330 or 4, there might be another group in there at 430, if they need it, or on the weekends or other times to use the space. And I think that's somewhat happening now. So that could very well continue or or be ramped up a little. I don't think the intention would be to displace anything that has been set there or leave it in a condition that it wasn't found in or anything like that. But I just to be transparent, we're really just down in the place to anymore to leave space vacant when we need it. And I hope that with the new adult services person, we're adding for the second half of basically January on that they actually are able to come up with more activities and more thoughtful programming to add to it. And, you know, I'm sure there will be input and conversations and all kinds of things around that. I think I saw up here in the front row, then Carl and Heidi, please. I just wanted to give my enthusiasm for you to know when it does come up, how much it means to so many of us who go there regularly and enjoy it and find so much goodness in going. And we just want you to know that's the way we feel strongly and for you to support us so that the senior center, as it is, as best it is, continues. Yep. Completely hurry up. Carl? At that point in time, whenever that decision would be made, we'd have to address it at that time. I don't want to promise something that I then or we as a community can't fulfill. So I don't know because I also don't know the full scope of the plans and to whether the senior center will be disturbed in any way. Those are all possibilities that we'll come to when that time comes. I also know that there is a strong desire from the board and the staff to also talk with you all who use the senior center to form you all and engage you in that process so that you are all informed. The senior center is going on. It's a very dynamic robust organization for the last phase. Yep. It's been a senior center primarily. There have been other functions that didn't shut down the day before that sort of time. But it's dedicated primarily for senior center. I don't know. I know before the municipality helps to provide these services, you all ran the senior center as a nonprofit and by no stretch of the and by no it's not a concern of ours. If the senior center wants to become a private nonprofit again, more than welcome to if there are ways that we can help to support that happening more than happy to do that. It came down to there was a point where nothing was happening. Somebody needed to help out and so we wanted to help out. That's not a thing right now. Now it's kind of like independent and actually it's directly to the board for the city manager which I would just try to require. It's going to take us a while to speed it up. Yep. It's going to be back in China and so what's been going on in the population of the COVID and in fact the organizations seniors just don't have the standard they had in 30 years ago when they were young enough to end up in feelings. It's not what I did. It's always done great. Seasons, he disorganization applied and we got to start over again. It's pretty good. Trying to get people back. It isn't an opportunity to go somewhere and interact with other people. It's a lot of health is planned. That's important to a lot of teams. One time our membership was approached between 100 and I think it's an expert. It's going to be a while before we get back up to looking at doctors but we don't have room blocks. We can do it. Right. Heidi? I just got to clarify that we never did. One moment though. Just Heidi was next and then we'll come over to you. Are you sure? Okay. All right. Okay. I just wanted to clarify that we've not ever become a 501 3C. We started that process but we didn't finish it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Yep. Annie? Or are you all set Heidi or did you? Okay. She started to mock you so I wanted to let her go. Okay. No, that's fun. That's fun. Remember meeting with John Alden and Zach here in this room when there was a lot of talk about the renovations and how long they were going to be, how much it was going to cost, how many phases and there was no guarantee in there that there would be a home or the senior center or the teen center. That's what I remember hearing. I'm going to have to find that meeting again and listen to it and see if I'm wrong. I'm bringing up the next topic to be heard but I thought what I heard means that there is actually some truth to these rumors that the senior center may have to fight animal because of the space needed for CDR. I'm a kind of person where I don't generally give guarantees hence why even to the question about what was asked earlier about into the future. So I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I can guarantee that that won't, that there won't be a day where the senior center will need to close for a period of time and will not have a home. Don't do that because I don't know what's going to happen in the world. So I'm not going to provide a guarantee. So what I can say to you though Heidi is that we have said that we don't want the senior center to close. Philosophically we don't want the senior center to close. We want to ensure that seniors have a place to go to the best degree that we have a budget that allows for us to do so and the capacity to do so in terms of a physical space to then go to if that center needs to close for any period of time to the best degree that we can. Can I just I think I remember one meeting with John Alden that was not too long ago and I remember very specifically what I asked John and it was so if this would help and I think it was probably the only time we had John here to talk to him about it. And I said if you looked at the part of the building that has the senior center and is also part of the teen center upstairs I said I asked John if you because we the teen center takes up most of the up the teen center takes up all the entire upstairs of this entire complex and I asked John if he was able as an architect to completely redesign that space over there could he put keep the senior center downstairs where it is but fit most of the teen center upstairs and he thought that that you know his his answer was affirmative but nothing committal but that might have been I think that was a discussion that we had but we weren't right at that point talking about moving moving them moving anyone out although as Andrew said we can't guarantee two or three years into the future that might happen but that was the conversation that I remember took place here. I just want to add that I think it's important to realize that thinking that far down the line it is a reality that we need a bigger meeting space in this building this isn't enough and that was probably part of one of the conversations we've had with the architect which were incredibly preliminary we don't have a budget we don't have a layout we've seen some ideas. You know we're starting out as we're starting out as a new city we've got a lot to juggle without a town partner anymore with all that space there I think we're all committing to having a senior center I'm not going to say though that in three years it might also be doing some time at different locations for different activities I said earlier I'm hoping that there be some more creative programming where people can get out because you know being a senior is a very large span of age and there are people that want to do different things. I've been approached about pickleball I've been approached about all kinds of other activities and getting some more creative programming for seniors also a place to play bridge and a place to visit and a place to be with other people because that's incredibly important at all ages I'm not going to commit though that for 25 years again that it's going to be in that very space so I I don't mean that we're trying to kick it out but we're trying to do anything to have it leave but we will always have a space I think in my mind for a senior center and we're always going to commit to to supporting it I will say that for me I don't see how we could otherwise approach this but I hope that's enough that we're going to make sure that not just that it's enough but I hope that reassures people that we are committed to this we find it important speaking for myself I find it incredibly important social isolation and the Andrews brought this up before is a real big deal um so I just I want to be very transparent that you know there's a lot we have to figure out and we don't have the space we used to have to do a lot of these things there's a lot of exciting things coming up though in terms of spaces being vacated in three to five years and other spaces that might come up so I think it does sound scary but I also think there's a tremendous amount of opportunity to improve what we already have and I think that's always going to be the focus for me is to figure out yeah okay well it might not be right here but if it's not right here it's going to be better and it's going to offer more better right yep no absolutely understood it's currently being used by sx chips and three of our finance staff probably by more as we redo the building it's probably going to be reduced for them about I didn't think chance to eat that and I think it was for a long process okay and not for the very so any your hands up thanks um Carl is so correct that we do so much for our biggest people in our community um not to be crossed but there's money very good money to be had in those moments there's income to be had and there's not as much sadly income to be had and seems to the back it's true it's true everything I think that if we prepare better by making a one member by authenticating when the intense intentional for seniors that it would be we're going to go with Carl is correct you know you're 65 and older not going to have the energy and the commitment to come in and fight for your costs and I also heard that the FBFTA bus concept I don't know about my depth here doesn't work for everyone because there are medical reasons and things that prevent people from being able to use that and my mother was living here a few years ago she's 80 and she's um physically has a hard time moving and the senior bus was delightful so that she will talk to her and I think that while I respect 100% here you and know that you really do mean what you're saying now conceptual conversation is not something that has enough traction to push forward past you off being seated here at this table and things happen things change I think if you can do the best you can to dedicate money you're saying we don't know what the budget I don't think we can say about senior's we don't know that the budget is the goal think about seniors we must say the budget is also what that means you know depends on the budget but I think that a more dedicated line out a more dedicated conversation and a more dedicated factual traction is more reassuring to people who dedicated a lot of time and energy to our community in fact that our seniors once drove hard towards the 501c3 that's a lot that's a lot to ask anyone to be able to think we should go in that direction I think that our budget should support our seniors okay I think that's another hand up front yeah the only I guess that's senior senior night right the only thing I'd add is great that the proposed staff member at 6 junction parts and recreation just currently I think it's two from the town and part of their responsibilities are to kind of maintain the senior center and so I know just from sometimes escorting somebody down to the senior center sometimes it's been closed just you know either you know they had other something else came up the extra priority is not sure what the situation is but you know we had it closed and so if there's one in this person it's adult services I think we talked about that it's just it'd be nice if that thing was was open every day you know so if they're staffing for a person one person maybe there's a plan to have other people involved or volunteers or whatever but right I think that plan needs to be in place to if there is a center and they're thanking for the the affirmation there but just to make sure it's is available to the seniors absolutely it'd be nice to think people have that combination so it's money through Friday or whatever rooms right absolutely it's not be that important see oh that money went solid yeah good Harlan as it stands now I'm going to leave in my head is how the senior center jointly between you and the town are working right now and I believe that the town actually manages a senior center programming oversight and also own the buses and run the buses and that the village is providing space and whatever support they can do we does anybody know what the town's plans are I don't and I don't know so that's why we're limbo and there's a lot of unknowns at the moment they were unsure what the town is going to continue and what they're going to offer they have they've had their budget meetings I have not attended them our agreement with them provides a level of services that we currently have through this calendar year after that that's up for them to decide as the town select board what to do for their residents and I don't know what that is yeah my my understanding is that the plan is to provide more is to continue to provide programming in different places that's that's my understanding of it yep yes absolutely yeah so back row the middle row so so it's been very challenging the partnership between the town and the seniors and I have to commend the city for I think they've done everything that they promised they would do for the seniors by providing a beautiful space that they have pandemic has been terrible and Carl's absolutely right it's more in a rebuilding process and I think the way George is saying is that all this positive information I know there's three plans for the space now the seniors are totally out of the loop of what's happening and so when staff members go into the community and say the seniors are out they've got to have space this is true then um we're like well we have we don't know what to say because we have no had no um information from the town who's running the seniors they say we're out of the loop too we don't know so um I just feel like uh it's really a great it's great to hear you say that the communication partnership has got to build because I think that's going to be a great sense of strength for the seniors and they're going to feel encouraged and um you know just to rebuild um our relationship I think they've had a good relationship with the city and I just I just feel that the communication is going to be very important because with the town uh staff there we have no communication it's a very difficult situation can I ask a question sure um is are you saying the the when you say the staff people are saying the senior center is going to be out of there you mean the is is the person the staff member from the town is that is that who is saying that no okay because you know a big city folks the staff are looking for places they're trying to figure out what will be happening in the community the teen center they're you know we're they're starting to come out into the community and look at spaces right yeah and so uh you know we're asking well look what's the future of what what you need space for right and and so that conversation is going on it's not rumors it's the reality the situation that the communication isn't uh I'm I'm not sure you're all your staff is on the same page either okay okay okay I mean I think that is probably from uh the first congregational church reach out to us and they have a vacant space in their building and so we did go over there to see you know is it a useful space for other folks in the community um and as we've been talking about here at some point a renovation is going to have to happen to this building and there is uh we're going to need to figure out what space we need for offices and what space we can accommodate for other folks um and so we're just trying to explore what the possibilities are out there go ahead so just looking to clarify one of the concerns that was like showing an investment in like the senior center we're hiring somebody at $56,000 for half a year correct to run the programs part of something the city is not acting we're dedicating a space to that location something the city's continually done so I would say we are putting an effort for if I'm not a citizen my concern though as a city resident who had many many many more years of paying taxes is I want to support seniors from the city which I've been but we continually as this junction as the whole has continually supported all the local towns with our recreation and our other events in which we hold like free and open events and that comes from the taxpayer itself and it doesn't always get lost at five fees and other things and that's my concerns when I hear we should open up all the other communities but that's our tax companies that do that and that's not so I would ask if we still continue to invest in this which we have been doing we ask other communities when we get a head count of where they are if they can participate in helping run this organization which will actually make it better because then it's not just 10,000 people trying to run it maybe we're talking 30,000 people between the other communities trying to help run this series yep absolutely go ahead any thanks can you define the new role the $56,000 a year role it's an adult services director that's as much as is defined as of today so there's no job description correct me if I'm wrong Regina there's no job description right now this is something that is being proposed to us in this budget if this budget as is currently in front of us ends up being passed then staff would go forward with the the portion of putting together a job description and all that type of stuff you're asking us to vote on budget for $56,000 a year that doesn't have a job description absolutely the budget conversation so when so this is this is getting us into the conversation about our budget which is we're going to be having once this part can end so if these questions are going to continue about the budget I would ask to hold on until we can then get into the budget conversations so we can then talk about that more broadly okay anybody have any non-budget related questions or other things that are on the agenda and this includes out in zoom length well I did the staff member and that isn't called adult services yep okay so we'll talk about that in the budget we could talk about that at the budget time when we get into that for the budget conversation so anybody else in the room have something that is not related to the budget or other things on the agenda so zoom land I see Jason your hands up oops good evening thank you for feeling my questions first thing I wanted to ask was I wanted to verify how the city collected its data regarding the value of the senior bus and how many of the residents were riding it because I was able to obtain a public record request and it shows that for the fiscal year 2022 up to date data wasn't used when calculating the value of the senior bus because it seems like more than 10 to 15 individuals would be using that to make that many trips what we can do uh I don't have it in front of me to be to be direct I can email you that packet of information because I just don't have it in front of me but it's within our one of our meeting packets okay so last one wasn't it I'll show it a while ago you said you had other questions Jason yeah my next question is regarding the the replacement of the senior bus with the ssta I mean as a person with a you know permanent physical disability myself I can empathize with people that are at the mercy of their caretakers and stuff um the problem as mentioned by another resident is that the ssta requires for you to be disabled you have to have a doctor's note so it's it's far more restrictive than the senior bus program so my question is how will the city address the needs of the seniors who need the program and qualified for the senior bus but don't qualify for ssta yep if somebody does not qualify for ssta then there would not be something that was provided based on the budget that is being put together as of now okay um my next question is is there a line specific in the budget for senior program so this is a budget question if you want to hold on until later in the agenda we can talk about it then okay yeah those are the only questions I have regarding the senior program thank you yep anybody else in zoomland this is like to say so the senior bus is being discussed it means everything to me I love the senior bus and they are so uh on the wall they're right when they're supposed to and they're very accommodating to you and I just want you to know i'm an enthusiastic supporter of the senior bus thank you all right so we will now move into the public hearing agenda item 5a which is our second public hearing on the budget and hello jess hello jess you want me jess you don't have to be that far away if you want why don't you cut back you be comfortable yeah you do whatever you want be where you want to be i mean you're finally here so it's sort of like you know no okay so i'm going to get us started on um this is the same presentation that we did um at the last meeting is that working right now there we go okay um okay so the budget that um we have prepared so far um again we have talked about this a few times through the process but um there is no exact um comparison for a new city budget the best comparison is the fy 22 mock city budget that was done we uh applied an eight percent inflation rate to that budget that gets us to 10 million six hundred ninety one thousand and the budget that we are um proposing for the city is 11 four um that is a seven percent change um to be clear the village budget in itself when you don't consider anything that we are our taxes are going to at the town level is um 6.3 million right now uh but comparing what the new city budget is to simply the village budget is not a good comparison because a number of services are done at the town level and we need those to happen at the city level so um the um budget itself does have some new positions and some new programs in it um and those are really sort of the contributing factors that are getting from a different place between that mock budget and the fy 24 budget so new positions um an administrative assistant um community development code enforcement person and town planner um s e j r p this adult position that we're talking about and i'll get to that in a little more detail further down um and some other adjusted adjustments to manage building coordination um storm water that used to be done in the town budget we've got to figure out how to do that on the city side to meet our um permit requirements um sx rescue costs are going up and so that's the increased cost to that um sx junction cemetery association um some shifting of the memorial day parade and fourth of july to some of the general fund and the capital transfer that um we put into place to really support the um solid capital program that we do here um so this is a true comparison so what um city residents are paying today is the point nine two nine eight combined tax rate between the city and the uh town what we are proposing in this city only budget for fy 24 is a point nine four three two proposed tax rate and that's a one point four percent increase and so for a two hundred and eighty thousand dollar home um that's thirty seven fifty one dollars more than what they're paying today we also have talked about um some one-time expenses that are are needed uh these are not in the general fund these are um we've put them into the local option tax um uh fund so that we can um you know fully become a a city and really now that we are a city really do some strategic planning to figure out what are our big priorities for you know next five years what um what are the kinds of things that we want to really focus on um now that we are a city and so we've talked quite a bit too about different committees that we could have and this sort of effort could really help us figure out what are those right committees going forward so uh just gonna run through the different um programs uh particularly in the budget um so administration you see that new full-time administrative assistant there uh legislative that's just a new um expense category for the council that we haven't had before um the finance staff so that's um um these positions are in place now already but they're showing up um in the FY 24 budget as well um and information technology so currently even today we are supported by the town IT department and we need to migrate this spring to our own IT department not department sorry our own IT services and then we'll uh we are preparing for um a vendor to help us with that going forward assessing so this is one of two departments that are staying joint with the town uh the assessing department is staying uh joint until the reappraisal is complete um that's expected to be done in FY 25 and then uh the agreement between the town and the city will be to relook at that going forward um community development already talked about with uh on that first slide the budget includes a proposed uh full-time code enforcement officer and a full-time planner some of that is to take up the concept of new committees that we would have um now that we are will be on our own in some of those joint committees between the town and the city may not continue on um health and human services that's that's a big one cost-wise um it's got the city's share of the police department in there so the police department is the other big um department that will remain shared the agreement between the town and the city right now is for a 10-year um agreement for keeping that as a joint department this also has the um sx rescue um amount in there we also um have health duties health officer duties um that's a standalone position right now incorporated into one of those uh community development staff positions so that um this gets reduced over here on this side um and you can see um the memberships for green mountain transit and the winewski valley park district again those were dues that were paid through the town before but we are seeing it now in the city side um and then public works and streets so you can just see that costs are are really going up in terms of um supplies and services there um storm water again we did have this on the village side it um included a portion of one full-time employee um and now we've uh really making that program more robust on the on the city side um changes in the uh library budget include um going to 10 hours per week for part-time staff so they can have four folks on each shift um and increasing uh collections for much more digital in-demand um um materials so ejrp administration budget um so um they have same number of full-time uh full fte's as in the prior year um there's some shifting of the costs of the memorial day um and fourth july um celebrations um and we are make some made some shifts to coordinate to deal with uh the need for building's coordinator that is not a new position we're just reshifting some some duties there and then we have added a new adult programming um uh budget and so the concept here is a full time adult program director position um it as originally intended this wasn't just for senior population it was for um folks we uh we serve um we have a lot of programs for kids we don't have a lot of programs for everybody who's not a kid up through seniors so that was the the concept of that and also just acknowledging that that um agreement with the town is going to end at the end of december 2023 and it would uh just help give us some flexibility to figure out between now and then what um or when the budget is passed and then what really is the right uh and best thing um and certainly have uh lots of intentions to speak with the senior community and figure out what that looks like um we and then also we have talked about this before um in in looking at the data it uh made sense that the cost of the senior van um was pretty significant in comparison to the number of people that are using that and so it seemed to make sense to move to um just increasing that ssta usage amount because we are charged for use um so that's what uh is in the budget um for that uh so debt we've got the debt for the police facility um i think we had a question about that last time if that goes through fy 34 the um buildings just uh general increases um for particularly at two lincoln for actually having people here for the first time in a number of years um and that is we are anticipating that that's going to go up as we have a more robust staff here in this office um and cleaning services are now under um one city contract contract and a number of these different buildings um and uh really have been um identifying repair and maintenance needs um throughout all of these buildings uh capital funds um so the first three funds that you see on this sheet are funded by general fund tax dollars and the other three funds are funded sorry four funds no three funds are funded by um enterprise rates uh charged to users on those systems so the capital reserve and the rolling stock funds are plans that have been in place they are multi-year plans that existed that have existed for a long time um and the capital reserve fund is also reviewed by the capital committee um the capital committee did not meet this year but we made no changes to the capital plan that was approved by them in the fryer budget here um so the the plan is to get that work up and going this spring and start gearing up for the FY 25 um budget process so those uh projects that are in the capital reserve and rolling stock and ejrp capital funds are all things that have been in the plans for several years now um water wastewater and sanitation we did take a really deep dive on some of these and are continuing to work on them but um we found that there are definitely projects that need to happen especially with some of our um pump stations and things like that so uh chelsea and rick and i have been working on um putting more detailed plans together as exists for the capital fund or capital reserve and rolling stock so the enterprise funds these four programs are all funded by user fees so we have the ejrp program fund um water wastewater and sanitation so ejrp has a proposed budget increase of about 12 percent um water wastewater and sanitation anywhere from 11 to 18 percent and we'll go into more detail on the next slides on those increases um so the primary driver in rate increases for for the wastewater water and sanitation funds are the administrative fees that are charged to these funds so the administrative fees basically the cost of the admin staff and overhead for where that staff is housed um that gets charged from the general fund out to these enterprise funds so the enterprise funds basically cover some of the cost of the general fund staff for jena myself the finance the rest of the finance team um costs related to the overhead here at linkedin and um insurances so the driver the increase here um is that in the f y 23 budget process um there was a significant increase um expected with the calculation the formula that's been used historically um and it was decided by management last year to effectively reduce that that increase down to just 12 percent to be more in line with the the across the board increase um budget lies in the general fund uh effectively what that's done is we didn't see we didn't realize that full increase last year so we're now seeing a snowball effect needing to realize it this year um so we acknowledge that there is a significant increase to rates projected for this upcoming fiscal year um but after that we will have caught ourselves up and should be able to maintain um a more even uh trajectory trajectory going forward um there are also some increases in the uh costs to operate our wastewater treatment facility so costs of chemicals um and the uh supplies and materials parts pieces um for everything that that we do um at that plant have increased significantly um as in addition there are unfunded mandates coming down from the state um that we have to figure out how to implement and fund and the only other addition in here is the water fund debt so the main street water line project that was approved at last annual meeting um we will be making our first payment on that debt in a 424 so the rates just to really quickly summarize um the total utility bill that a resident receives based on an average of 120 gallons per day which is an industry average that's used uh we're projecting that the bill would increase just under eight and a half percent or 49 dollars and 62 cents per year all right so that's it for the presentation great thank you Regina and Jess so would this being a public hearing I will we will turn this over to the public in just a quick moment um so since we started off in the room last time this time we'll or for public to be heard we'll go into zoomland first so for those of you on zoom if you have uh any questions regarding what you've just heard about the budget please go ahead and raise your hand I will also for the public hearing please also be prepared to only speak once uh make sure you do address all of your questions to me uh if after you have after you ask your questions we'll answer the questions when you are when your questions are done we'll move on to the next person if you have other questions after that again please only expect to go once and do not expect to uh to be called back on upon again so Jason I see your hand is up I assume this is the question about is there a uh a separate budget for the seniors that is my first question correct uh Jess or Regina if whoever's controlling the screen did you go to page 46 within our packet and share that on the screen yep thank you Regina so what you have on the screen now this is the adults program the adult services program budget in here is the salary for that program director potential benefits and as other other costs associated with that the thing that is not in this portion of the budget is there is a special fund that is holding approximately $20,000 from when uh from when the senior service or when the senior program came under the municipality um that money is being held in that that separate fund and that would help be used to help support programming okay is in here too I don't know what page it is but it's in here somewhere well I guess my concern would be that uh adult programming may exclude the very things that seniors need and it may behoove the residents for the city to make that addition I admit I don't know what you mean well to separate the budget into senior specific needs oh I see what you're saying other questions I do um sorry my background is in biochemistry and skydiving so your you know patience is appreciated in my lack of experience but um in general tax impacts the village trustees promised us a seven percent reduction in taxes and we were given a 1.4 percent increase so the town predicted a 22 percent increase and delivered a 22 percent increase so why given the same parameters of separation i.e. new hires fuel inflation and COVID was the um degree of error so high on the on this part of the city there was no error at that point in time there was no knowledge that the inflation rate would be what it was there was also no promise if you go back through you will see and as I was talking about earlier I don't promise and I don't guarantee the only time I've ever promised to my wife is that I had to have and to hold till death do was part that's about the last promise I've made personally when it comes to other things within our budget as to why there is an increase as Regina has talked about the increase in new positions to do things like enforce our ordinances to help staff committees that we are talking about potentially having this will allow for us to do some of those things like have a rental registry which is a conversation for instance that the village trustees had approximately six to eight or so years ago and what we had told the community year after year is please wait once we can figure out governance this is something we can then talk about and so this coming through to have that opportunity so the increase largely as was mentioned on page four of our packet slide three is largely that salary and benefits so the town that you know we're subjected to the same parameters of new hires and separation they were able to deliver very precise numbers to the people though so my question is being why weren't you able to provide this the same sort of position precision I would service yep so they cut their services they're also using ARPA funding to help offset their tax rate which means next year they're going to either have to replace that revenue with something else or they're then going to have to increase taxes by a different amount in terms of their process beyond that though I would have to point you to the select board to ask them because I don't know more than that okay my next question is in regards to the fund balance for the town it currently has a $432 deficit and the town has $700,000 so the village before we separated paid taxes into the town and it's to the order of 41% of that $700,000 so my questions are was there provision for the town keeping this money in the separation and if not why isn't the city council trying to make an attempt to collect the 41% that we put into the $700,000 this you're seeing us chuckle here this was one of our conversations we had and we were separating one of our proposals was to recoup some of that 42% that we had paid and the border line I'm trying to refrain from editorializing the response was no they weren't going to we contributed to their capital fund and we were told nope not getting that my next question is actually in regards to the capital the other the other portion I'm sorry Jeff our you mentioned that our our fund balance was in the negative that's not true um Jess can you please correct what our fund balance is yes I know it's in our audit report that we'll get to later tonight yeah so Bill will be presenting our audit shortly um I believe I got that from the packet sorry Jason what was that I said I believe I got that figure from the packet but I may be mistaken my apologies okay yeah it's not a negative it's it's 430 something thousand for the positive okay my bad excuse me we did very much want to get the capital money and the fund balance but they're just under an obligation to talk to us can I can I make it just a couple of comments here uh Jason first of all I I think that the rationale from the town's perspective is that we paid those um funds as town residents and I think that that's the reasoning that they would use that yeah you you you were part of the town when you paid into the town so now that you're going your own way you don't you're not town residents anymore so that's the logic I I'm not I'm not in recounting and I'm not saying yes or no I agree with it but that's the logic they used I get it um one of the uh one of the other things that was a bit of a surprise it wasn't really a surprise to us but um when we were looking initially at the division of because we knew we were going to have to um we were going to maintain the contract with the police department and we initially thought and we're we're our idea was that we would be dividing up the cost of the police department on the basis of our grand lists and the town's grand list is 17 million dollars and ours is about 11 and a half million uh and so that that looked like a pretty good you know we that and that's that's our biggest cost altogether combined that's like a five million dollar budget so we but the town said no um we want to do it per capita we want to do it per person um we had to make it we had to make some tough decisions in the in the course of those negotiations um because we were I mean I'm getting we're getting I'm getting a little away from the budget here but we were looking at trying to get the separation charter uh online and voted on by the beginning of the legislative session so we had to make some hard choices along the way back me up here folks uh that that yeah okay maybe maybe we could argue about this you know but we had to make some tough choices and so the our share of the police was significantly I think probably about a quarter of a million dollars more than easily than what we had anticipated initially anticipated um yeah so I just wanted to add those things in that doesn't really help um but uh there you are and and also I I uh since you're a fellow biochemist I say hi uh say French like well again my I've never managed a municipal uh budget before but um my next question is in in regards to the general fund capital reserve and as was just mentioned we're currently in the positive 201 976 dollars if I'm correct um looking forward to fiscal year 2028 uh we're looking at a deficit of just shy of 11 million dollars 10 million 981 thousand dollars 951 so what is the city planning and to do to address this huge deficit yeah so uh that fy 28 number is including projects that do not need to be completed in fiscal year 28 but our placeholders for projects at this spreadsheet uh holding all the the projects is much larger than what you see here and so that's basically lumping everything that's out into the future into that so in terms of what we were doing part of it is a local option tax that was approved by the community to help provide an additional source of revenue to help compensate for the fact that our community does have infrastructure needs that we need to be able to repair um but that giant number is not uh necessarily saying that that um that all of those projects need to be done within that year okay thank you for your time thank you Jason anybody else out in zoomland all right I'm not seeing any other hands on zoomland and to the room questions please the adult programming director yep um well before it was stated that there are a lot of programs for kids um but not so much for people 21 and over then um my thinking is that um the senior was a really beautiful time person and I don't but I'm personally I think it would be nice to have one of the kids program programmers turn into you know somebody who works on adult programs over at the rec center and then we can have our own person because we really do need our own person I think somebody that understands has likes to be with seniors as opposed you know really wants to be with younger people yeah yeah I know that with um uh when Luanne was uh working for or working with the seniors that there was nothing but uh rave for what she did the work that she did uh as well as she put by understanding she put an extra time on her own to come in and spend more time than what she was paid for uh understand that I hear that uh what I would say is this is year one of us doing something we can see how this goes and we can always change that in the next budget year this is a a proposal of let's do something see how that goes and then if it's not going well or if it could be improved upon let's have that conversation I do think it'll be important that as this happens if this budget passes to let us know how that's going to um make sure that if it's not going well that we have those conversations about how to improve it for the better did you have any more questions any you should be heard just fine okay if you'd like to come up though feel free that's why it's visible in your law I can hear you perfectly but I can't see you if you want so hi my name is annie cooper resident city of s6 junction proud resident city of s6 junction um I feel like I feel like once I sat here I'm going to talk too much I should have stayed there it feels to me like what you're asking of the residents as taxpayers is something like angel investors in a startup you're asking us to give money to positions and committees that aren't defined yet the adult position doesn't have a job description I can't give you $56,000 for it sorry to say I wouldn't do that in any level of business that I participated it's ridiculous sorry ridiculous not a nice word it's not it's not a way to do business and it's not a way to do taxes the same truth for the committees you're mentioning what committees might be formed with the dollars but there's no clarity on which ones will be formed and so to me maybe we hold off maybe we as excited as we are about all this new stuff maybe we figure out how to define the positions throughout the year and then come back next year's budget with a better firm nailed down description of committees and jobs that you want right now this budget is full of several items sorry full of doesn't make sense it's got several items that aren't defined and that doesn't make sense to me and there's a lot of what let's see maybe we'll the seniors need to definition for sure I don't know that somebody who's there and as you know forming adult things maybe that's basketball leagues maybe that's whatever I don't know I agree with I'm sorry I don't know you're Peggy that there needs to be a clear definition for seniors we need to look after our seniors I mean when did we just like like when our elders and our I'm 55 I put a lot of volunteer time I mean if we just I just thought to myself let's take me as an example you know for the amount of volunteer time if we were to quantify that in my rate as a resident to receive senior services I'm 57 I don't feel like I want to go play bingo or bridge but I probably wouldn't do that anyway when I when I if I had more years but certainly I would hope that you would respect the amount of time and and dedication and energy and not just that but the amount of taxpayer dollars that a resident has put in over the years so I'm saying for myself as you already know even if I just walked in here tonight knew nothing about my own feelings about the budget already I'm a hard no on a budget that doesn't clearly define the committees and positions how many positions are not defined besides that one don't don't have job description besides the adult one the adult one is a wreck position the adult position is a recreation position within ejrp I don't believe the building coordination role is is uh completely a job description the administrative assistant may have an old one but I would look to Regina to make sure that that is what updated and be what it should be code officer or code enforcement officer I doubt has a job description in the planner I doubt has a job description so if we could do it if I could just are each of them about $56,000 a year let's just say give or take all right that's a lot of money that's not defined and then the committees are $50 per meeting how many how much money do we have to set aside and lie down for committees that we haven't named yet we've got plenty of committees we've got bike walk treat no no no the ones the new ones the three I'm not finished we have bike walk we have the tree committee we have economic development committee we have Essex past what else we don't have an economic development committee now we have plans of having an economic development committee we can't do it without staff sure we have what else was there was something else is it on the list is it neat record advisory we want to do there's one um energy downtown committee are those going to be economic development thought um and there's also the the concept that I brought up I think at the last meeting of well it was around the stipends when we were talking about stipends I think we really need to have some flexibility as we get going um to see where attention is needed we have a finite amount generally speaking of volunteers and people willing to come forward and do this work and I can see it sort of operating on a quarter or half a year year basis where we have a transmission coming we might need some people to do some work around that with us and so we might need some flexibility to sort of let's focus the people that are energetic about working with the city towards this finite but lengthy project we have and once that project is sort of wrapping up we can move them back towards economic development we can move them back towards the next big project which might be a giant development coming in on park street and how do we interact with that with the community so I think it's very important to hear what you're saying Annie but I think it's also very important to future proof ourselves make sure we have the flexibility to respond as a new city as we're asked to do to to be able to engage the community in ways that we really frankly can't predict and we on in my opinion don't have time to wait ha budget for so you want floating tax dollars no we have random so floating stipend dollars for committees that we already have those type those dollars are planned out by the number of meetings the number of people on the committees I know that they won't all be pulled so people always ask right that's and that's another point I want to get you thanks for reminding me so what I'm saying is there were there's money added for three new committees three is correct the number the correct number Andrew I think so right yeah that's in memo it's not in the budget right now that's what we're proposing right but they're not named committees those are three committees that we'll figure out after we pay our after the taxpayers vote on this budget correct they're not fine they don't have a charter they don't have a mission statement great that's that's what I'm talking about I'm not talking about the committees we already have I'm talking about the committees that we're adding on that are that we're you're asking us to again invest and just you know it doesn't feel good to me I don't know if this is the right place to put this but Raj's statement reminded me of it and that is that once we agree to a budget and money goes towards the places it's going toward it it's not always and I'm sure it'll be new you're here you weren't here before Regina sorry I didn't mean to speak I know I'm sorry sorry the money that doesn't get used then lands back in the fund budget money that is not that is not expended right goes into a fund balance right that account cannot exceed 15 percent of our budget if it exceeds 15 percent of our budget then we have to figure out what to do with it right so either things like give it back or it's things like fund or capital programs which is typically what we've done in the past of taking that money and putting that into a capital budget if we have that much left over right give it back I don't think has ever happened has it not in my time neither so what I'm saying is to be fiscally responsible myself in my house with my money I'm not ready to invest my tax dollars and agree to this budget without clearly defined places for that money to go and then a clear understanding at the end of a year in the tracking of that money how it went where it got turned down on committees and how it came back which I don't think can really be kept well with floating committees I don't so thank you for the conversation spend it's very much accounted for how many get spent is very much accounted for and you'll hear from that in the next agenda item about our audit with all due respect I have been on many committees I myself or it's myself to keep track because I could see that it was getting lost in the shuffle especially when you take a committee and you divide it into pieces you take one committee divide into three or divide into four no one knows what anyone else is spending it's very hard to keep track of I'm sure that once it gets to the place that it's supposed to get to it's very well taken care of I'm not suggesting it's not but there's a lot going on before it gets there and I don't think I know it's not well looked after anyway those are other things I want to say you I mean you're welcome to respond to me but I feel like I've been talking a lot I didn't hear really a question you told us your philosophical stance thank you for sharing your philosophical stance thank you for your time thank you come on up so Richard Smith I'm actually more focused on how we get more revenue into the city and I had some concerns about it because I wasn't here in 1956 when a lot of these like decisions that actually do hamper the city were decided global boundaries is not the company we made a tax deal with in 1956 but it's still one of our largest properties and it's not being taxed at the normal rate of what we'd expect a resident to pay and definitely nowhere's near what we'd expect a business to pay how did that happen how does a sale occur between two different businesses and we not end up changing the tax rate I can I I can give you a very specific answer for global foundries yep I don't want to interrupt your flow but I but global foundries is in kind of a separate category and they get they get assessed uh kind of separately you know how many micro processors are there in Vermont there's only one and so how do we go about assessing them and they they they bring in their own assessment really they have their own sense of it and then we agree to it I just if you if I'm saying something really misleading here but and you're right but really basically at this point global foundries we're assessing them basically on the basis of what their what their property is worth in terms of what the manufacturing and the high level manufacturing that goes on there that that really got completely downgraded with the elimination of the machinery and equipment tax I I don't know if that that helps but no um so global foundries is one entity that's inside that like acreage area if you look at the park I think the signs now up to like seven names right but yeah when you look at like how the assessment works it's still being shown as assessed well below its value for even if you were to sell it by 0.1 70 or lots parcels okay um and so like I think if now the idea I've heard is it's like a it creates jobs that sounds like a state problem not just an extension problem so have we brought that to our reps to look for ways for them offsetting how again the junction is helping offset costs for everybody else but it's not coming back into the city itself one thing I do know unless I hear otherwise Regina or Jess if you know understanding is that in this reassessment a part of the contract that was given or that was done by the town is to have another entity specifically who's going to be assessing that property by the end of fiscal year 20 f y 25 I believe I have a year right give or take a year but that it is one separate contract basically with one separate entity to do that compared to all the other assessments with their property will be reassessed again at that time period how it got to exactly where it is I don't know if I could add I've said many times that that's one of our biggest challenges as a city going forward it's going to be getting more development onto that onto that it's it's one of the it's probably the premier technology park in the state because it has its own water treatment plant but we are kind of constrained because the greater burlington industrial corporation really has kind of a lock on the development there and that's a big challenge going forward for the city is how can we kind of break in there and get between gba I'm sorry for gba I see they're nice people but I don't see them being aggressive enough on our behalf to develop that property and I think that's a challenge going forward for the city it's it's a hard one but it's a technical one but it's a very important one because that's really a major addition to our grand list if we can get more business going in there continuing on that kind of front are like five largest properties I'll bring in less money than a normal like tax parcel and the only reason that matters to me is I own more than one parcel in the city of that assumption it's also I don't believe we should give people based on how much taxes they pay because I think then we just have to give a handy half the town at that point so like I'd be very careful of saying how much people pay in is how much they should get from their community but with that we have state property that's one of our largest on west street again it's not bringing any value back to us we have other municipalities that are holding properties in our community that are not bringing value back to us and we share a high school that's used by two communities our fourth largest property that's bringing no value back to us and yet again our tax base is asked every single time to be the one to carry that burden and I just haven't heard how we plan on fixing those issues here in the future and then the last big burden is when we do see increase of cost for police and we see increase of cost of like esc rescue and the fire department one of our biggest two-week periods that taxes us is used by an entity that gives us a $15,000 donation but the amount of overtime used for everybody to cover those events far surpasses the $15,000 donation we received back for that 129 acre property that was intended also with the local option tax to try to get from what happens there because concert ticket sales their food vendor sales those are the 1% of that will come back to the city in terms of some kind of compensation the part of it is also a federal law that prohibits non-profits and government entities from being taxed for on their on property so we we can't violate that we can negotiate a payment in lieu of taxes but that is a negotiation and as we saw with the town they can basically say nope and we're kind of in a difficult point at that point with the police department my understanding is that all of the police officers from from the Essex police department who then go to the fairgrounds when there is a giant event like that they are compensated by they do get a bill from the town to cv e to then pay the town for their their overtime it doesn't stay within that 129 acre property though like when they oh right the increase across the community is not just within that 129 acre property right i remember talking with the radio channel they were here about how what is it like for them and they said oh it's our biggest step time of the year and so you're right yeah yeah they don't conflict for that and i think that's where our conversations i don't hear a lot of that i hear like where can we cut costs but like where are we going to bring in and then the last one i know cannabis is like a new one but i'm pretty sure part of the state law was communities are able to also do an additional tax within selling that and i'm not trying to jack up prices on everybody but one of those areas that is usually taxes tobacco and like those recreational events have we looked at that as another way of bringing in because the state just released how much money it made off from taxes and i think they're at like 1.3 million in the first three months of taxing that yeah and so like that's what i'm worried about i think my services are great i think we're doing well there but i don't see and i haven't heard where we plan on bringing in extra funds to offset the costs that we do need to have to run this city yeah i roger i've felt in cannabis at the table um i'll let that sit for a minute okay not at all but let me repeat that we are restricted into i mean if we're we're restricted to one percent local option tax on retail of which we get less than or 64 what is the breakdown 70 percent 60 percent since cat and you know i think to really make a dent in the in the way that you're talking about the amount of retail we'd have to have for that one thing would be enormous that said i i think anybody here would disagree with you oh yeah no you're getting only nods here we know you're you're right there we're totally with you and when i said 20 minutes ago that i would like to be able to have flexibility to have people who are energetic and willing to come forward and really talk about this stuff in in in different ways in different projects that's kind of exactly what i mean i mean this takes a lot of time and a lot of bodies and it's why you're seeing some of this increase in the positions in the community development department we've put so much on hold over the last 10 years way longer than i've been on the budget and we on the board and way longer than paying attention has been this consolidation effort and this effort frankly to keep the budgets down so that the town would merge with us and so we are behind on ordinance enforcement or behind on looking at our ordinances we're behind on how we how we interact with our neighbors when we want to enforce them we have no concept of how expensive it's going to be for attorney's fees when somebody decides they don't want to participate when to force them i mean so many things we have so many projects coming in where the community i mean i just think back to the handy senior building over here fine project but the streets the community the neighbors around them felt like they weren't communicated with their herd and we have enormously you know exponentially bigger projects potentially coming and none of that is waiting we've got a hundred or so or 80 apartments proposed on pearl street alone and another 60 coming online soon and the neighbors in my neighborhood for one of those had no idea and that's on them i love them all but it's on them attention they like your name um but these all these things take they take interaction with the community with municipality and i think it's it's critically important as we start out the city i'm getting on a tangent sorry but it's critically important i think as we start out the city that we start out ready to take some of this so we don't get further behind because i think it's a lot of what you're saying just add it to this massive list that's in my head and a notebook of what we've been waiting on what we've asked our neighbors is andrew mentioned earlier to wait up please be patient with us as we work through this because we have to get this done first um so yeah i think you get complete agreement from everybody here that we have to figure out how to leverage some of that and i know that wouldn't that even was part of the tree farm conversation we want to tell us as we want to leave it the way it is we say we want to be creative with it you know and and that's kind of where we are i know and and that's another property that that's a huge chunk that the you know when the first time we talked about tree farm i don't know it was like 80 people showed up it felt like almost all of them from elsewhere people from southern vermont used it or something you know so i i totally hear you um and if you want to participate in any of those conversations this is a recruiting question so you just said the hot seat i don't need about this so we're we're coming i donate about 500 hours a year volunteer i know you do on top yeah i tell you okay what's wrong with 500 more but i i'll add one thing you know uh 10 years ago our grand list was about 11 million dollars 10 years so 10 years later our grand list is about 11.7 all of that i virtually all of that again you can correct me if i'm wrong these these multi-story buildings that are going in here the the the improvement in the property value that's the that's a very small little uh economic engine that we have driving our grand list it is a concern because that's not a big horse to be riding into the future uh and when we see big increases in our budget you know when the budget's going up like this and the grand list is just barely keep yeah no we do need to increase our grand list but and i'm i'm a big advocate for really pushing because for the immediate future that's where we're going to be really really improving our grand list is being to increase the development the redevelopment of these older properties in the downtown yeah one last question have those been realized because i think like the old bank was 650 000 that building now is like a 12 million dollar building yes so that's already been realized in the tax they get realized before the built just as it's taking place yeah yeah yeah we're right usually really right on top awesome right and the the only last point i want to make is i um i know one of the things that amber has talked about uh year after year is increasing our uh the fees that we charge for development uh and that was something that was supposed to happen a couple years ago didn't happen so this year is also included is to help increase those fees that we get from people proposing new development to better align with what the the market is granted it's a drop in the bucket in the overall budget it also like creates the other issue that's occurring in our community of housing costs where you kind of need to grow the housing stock realtor we're going to price everybody out of our city okay awesome thank you thank you and we'll see you for 500 more hours yeah go ahead hi um you said you have neighbors in your area they don't know about the development here but we find out um do the butters get notified or do we all as citizens need to pay attention to what the conditions are uh it's butters i'm a nerd who goes to the s-extruction website that's a good question that the Regina obviously knows more than i do about yeah so for um developments um that go to the development review board that butters are notified um and then those agendas are posted a week beforehand just like um other agendas are for the development review board hearings and there is also the legal notice in the newspapers but that's you know excuse me hi carl good afternoon uh with regard to the uh tree nursery down on west street the uh back in about 1970 i was on between 68 and 72 the state was willing to for that piece of property and we jumped right on that and i think we had an agreement it would be turned over to the the wheels turned slowly but it was going to be turned over to the village um i don't think with any strings of tax we might have to pay a dollar or pay something for it but that didn't really materialize because the people working there in the various state agencies they seemed to have a pretty good lobby and they didn't work one day they went to want pay here and when they came back they stayed that squelched the project so but we did make the effort yeah the uh wanted to go to the library um we still do we have a head librarian anymore we had the director of the the library yes i haven't seen wendy in a couple of years is she's still around her pretty much so yeah where's the hiding yeah there yeah she's wendy's uh at the library i i don't know her schedule she should be there yeah i mean i don't go in all that often they don't have any books in there that i read i have to get my own books i read a difference and different not a better book but a different book my wife will know when the other day to return some books don't on the door close like a staff so are we having trouble recruiting whatever i don't know what the correct number of people would be for the staff but is there an effort to recruit to get up to uh whatever that minimum level should be uh that's origin on some yeah i wonder if if this happened to be thursday when she was trying to drop off her books on saturday oh i think it was saturday she had them in her hand she walked over and came back with the same books in her hand i'm not sure about what was happening i'm not telling that that was a criticism it's just a point of information uh i go in there and there doesn't seem to be a lot of people in there anymore i just wander in you know random and check the papers or maybe see what the new book section is but we don't seem to be doing some good there right is that a same problem with other departments within the city about a lack of staff well or an adequate staff whatever whatever they they determined in any department would need to be at a minimum working level the other departments unless i'm mistaken they're the only ones who have had that request for additional staffing i don't know if it's a mission but just get it back up to par yeah yeah no the other departments are staffed as well as they can be i don't know if we still have a vacancy in public works as they seem to regularly be looking as that's a hard area to fill um where they seem they seem to whatever their level they seem to be turning out the work i mean i i commend them for their for their effort i think you mentioned something about 20 000 of the seniors yep i hope that isn't in your budget that is within a separate fund that is completely outside of like our general fund it's in a secret lock box if you will um but it has its own special housing area because i don't know why the seniors lost it it's probably not a bad idea that it did come over here where it's hopefully safer but it was funds i've told the city manager here a while ago that those funds were left by seniors i think they're mostly women the two women in their wills and one of those 20 plus thousand and one of those something less yep and we did use some of that money yep uh the refurbished the interior over here new flooring and there were some things with the kitchen replacing and some like fish wash i think was one thing and i mean not huge expenses but right it was senior money it wasn't tax revenue competing with other i was trying to find where it is um specifically within our packet but within our audit report there is a specific line item that talks about a a senior special fund um where it's in its own special line item that's i jokingly call it a special lock box but is to make sure that that money is not accessed for things like general operating expenses or things like buying pizza for staff get this organization you know back on his feet yep we may have a use for that money great certainly move yeah it might be improvements and you can coordinate it with whatever the plan is for remodeling and maybe we can work on something like that and a cooperative effort that'd be a great conversation to to have when we're when we're ready we don't have anybody to have a conversation with right now you heard you saw these two ladies here tonight uh but we there are some others out there that are they aren't getting any younger just for what it's worth yeah i don't know what our average age is i think it might be 80 something that's maybe high but we don't have that anymore we're working on it other than that i you know this is going to be a year a transition year and it's going to be in flux by the fluid for the next 12 or 15 months i think most of the community understands that it can't hurt if you want to help share that though well but i mean i think they're willing to cut some slack yeah you know that otherwise they might be a little more aggressive about yeah the other thing about the budget i didn't mean none of us can do anything about it there are people in this community like every other that are a lot that are hurting mm-hmm yeah they are hurting they can't pay their i know our church over here they have a fund they help try to pay some of the the heating utilities yeah so bills yes as long as in this in addition to the food pantry right things like that but you're not going to get blood out of a stone nope they're already hurting so george mentioned about the the base near the grand list yeah this was broken against anyway thank you carl keep going on it catch you later great already spoken any arlen i just wanted to be or maybe some clarifying information from a conversation that happened earlier on the budget there are three committees that are identified that potentially are going to be put in place that are not formed at the moment correct they don't currently exist but could potentially be in the budget yes i feel like they're the names of these committees could just could somebody remind me of them one of them as a record writer reconvisory council reconvisory downtown board and energy and energy so i i feel like there's some description within the name um my my question is if we don't put them in the budget let's say we vote down the budget because we don't want you to put that money if we don't put that money in the budget what would be the earliest that these committees could be put in place to help us would that be uh july of or july of 24 june of 24 it's a great question the one of the joys of public budgeting for a municipality is that this process starts in advance and if we basically we have to budget for the worst case budget for the highest amount we think we might need because come july one if we don't have that we can't do it because i believe the police department on the town side which we also pay into holds two positions that they budget for every year for policemen that they've been trying to recruit but have not had the success yep um so that's the way that a budget would work correct that we would need to get this money in place so that if we were able to define the parameters of committees or this um adult recreation position we would need the money in place so that we could enact them in a timely manner to serve our community it's just like why when we budget for health insurance we budget for somebody who's going to have say children so that that way if we hire somebody who does we can actually forward to pay their benefits instead of budgeting for a single person and then hiring somebody who has a family and need to pay that higher amount and trying to scramble to find that money so yes if it's if for example the budget were to be voted down the question that would come to us is why and most likely it's because people would want it to be too it would want to be less so we have to figure out what to cut and those committees wouldn't actually be in place um obviously we need them they've been identified these are committees that we're going to have to put in place those committees wouldn't be put in place until the parameters of what their responsibilities would be including um the adult program person right right those those job descriptions and those parameters would be put in place then the committees would go out for volunteers or the position would be advertised with a description and the money would be in place to put those in place in time in a timely manner for the community right once the money once it's known that the money is going to be there then we could take the time to do that personally speaking I don't want to spend the time creating a committee creating a job description doing those kinds of things if we aren't going to have the funding there because otherwise time can be spent doing other things thank you I appreciate your time thank you Harlan all right no other hands we will go ahead and look at what we have next on our agenda so we'll close the public hearing and go into business item 6a and right 6a introduce Chris Ewan community development director yeah he's hi chris he's gonna need to be a little bigger let me see if I can do that how are you chris to join you guys over here um yeah Regina you can say a few words or should I just uh introduce myself I will say a few words uh chris ewan started on February 6th I think it was and it's been so awesome it's really been a huge help so far um we have already thought through some process improvements um on the internal drb review front as well as the um uh development review board front to try to get ahead of some of these sort of problems that have been having happening on the back end um and it's just been really great to have him here um and I also am incredibly impressed because I don't know how often you've biked in already but just right at the bat biking in and taking the bus woohoo nice how far are we talking chris uh from from downtown burlington all right yeah we've got a good service linking uh linking the two cities so I'm glad to use it great happy to happy to hear that appreciate you helping to reduce the carbon footprint so yes um yeah I've been with the city now for just over two weeks and uh you know I'm learning a lot and uh but uh previous to this uh I was uh working in transportation planning I spent about five years in actually specifically public transport planning for cities throughout the united states uh we my firm was helping um to redesign transit networks and uh redesign way the routes would uh uh be be run um and how service was distributed within with uh lens on equity and uh on uh access to opportunity uh over the the last year I've pivoted more towards active transportation before landing here at the city where I'm very excited to uh to participate uh and be a part of the conversations about expanding housing options uh and working through other transportation and uh and uh planning goals and the housing goals that we have in the city so feel free to contact me at any time if you have questions about planning about community development and I will uh make sure to get the best answers I can to you as soon as I can appreciate that chris thrilled that you're thrilled that you're here and look forward to taking you up in that opportunity as well as just having your your eyes your brain and your thoughts in terms of what we in the community can do to help uh to help develop as ex-junction thank you I'm looking forward to it yeah does anybody have any particular questions or do you want to say chris where are you from originally well previous to this uh was uh I was actually in portland Oregon where I've spent uh five years and uh previous to that so I basically I grew up in in uh Vancouver BC in Canada um I was actually born in Hong Kong so yeah I've spent a fair share of time in a bunch of different places uh you know on uh mostly on this continent so freezing cold doesn't scare you I did do grad school in Toronto and uh there's you know it's a little similar there oh wow so this is nothing yeah what do you found the most challenging in the first two weeks um I think learning about all the the existing rules and why they're that why they exist trying to get history on you know the intent of uh different regulations in their land development code and and trying to get a feel for what's uh what the community wants going forward especially with the with the proposed changes uh you know updates to to the ldc and uh you know and how that relates to the official plan and how and you know how how the city looks now as as it has just become a city um getting grapple and all these things together has been uh has been a challenge but there's uh plenty of uh good expertise already in house terry haas the uh the uh in in my departments has been around for a very long time and uh and she really has provided the uh the institutional continuity that's uh that has helped me uh come on board great yeah that's that's great I would say as you're looking at those rules and if you find yourself questioning why does this exist or why is it this way please push back certainly you know I'm uh coming up with that you know this stuff things like that's and you know working my way through uh trying to understand things and uh you know suggest ways that's the city can improve in the future sounds wonderful I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on the um in the proposed ldc that you've probably been been pouring through um some of the suggestions and um specifics on development and and bike infrastructure and um some of the some of the new proposals they have there for new for new building and I was trying to get through it and trying to figure out if we'd actually with some of the definitions and some of the building sizes if we'd actually ever see any of it um in this in what we have left to develop and how how that all related to what we're looking at in the next 10 or 15 years but we haven't gotten here we haven't reviewed it as a board yet we've read it um or tried to read it um tried a number of times to read it usually around nine o'clock and have a trouble slip out yeah but I'd love to connect with you sometime and talk about that I'm really into um making sure we're um an active healthy accessible walkable bikeable community um and really thrilled to hear that you've been biking in through blizzards and whatnot um to come to work so you're gonna bike tomorrow morning I'm assuming tomorrow might be a bus day yeah well yes I'm uh thrilled to be here and uh I'm certainly catching up on uh reading up on those proposed amendments right now uh and also comparing them to what I know from best practices from cities uh you know around around the region and around the country um so yes we'll I'm happy to be in touch about that and uh when and uh we'll be moving that to council uh when uh when we're ready to do so great thanks great um and I'll just add that uh Chris we will also come forward with a recommendation to appoint Chris as the zoning administrator we're bringing that to the planning commission first in the early march and so then that'll come to the council on March 22nd great sounds good thank you Regina Chris thank you for for uh applying and saying yes to the the job opportunity thrilled that you're here and thrilled to see uh and hear more from you thank you thank you thank you Chris and so next up we have the fiscal year 2022 audit report with bill tizer I see that last name right great yes you did hi Andrew hi bill can can everyone hear me okay yes okay um Jess do you want to go first or want me to just start right out I really all I want to say bill is um this was a challenging audit because I was not here for most of the year so it took a little bit longer than normal thanks to bill for his patience and helping me work through this process um and also uh like I mean I just I came to the village to the city uh obviously it looked at financials before you applied for the job here um the city has always been a community that others look to um and an example that great example that set so um it was exciting for me to come here and kind of dive into it um also this is our last audit as a village yep so uh next year's audit will say city of S extension all right bill you can take it away all right thank you very much Jess um yeah and I'm sorry if I get caught between city and village a few times during the uh my presentation but um yes officially a city as of July 1st 2023 so congratulations on that um don't worry we're still mad at ourselves and we'll get you the yes later work and process no so my name is bill Kaiser um I'm a principal at Cattel Brownigan and Sargent we've been doing the uh village of Essex audit for the last I think four or five years now um as Jess had mentioned uh the audit for 2022 on her end was the challenge however uh we were able to issue a clean unmodified opinion for the 2022 audit um and overall from my perspective as an auditor it was a success um which is a big plus for the village becoming a city uh certainly a year of transition where um halfway through the year uh separation had to be realized from the town as well as a mid-year transition of finance directors going from Sarah Macy to Jess as well as bringing in a new city manager in Regina um but overall the finance department and the justice team did a very nice job preparing for the audit she's been through these processes before with Milton most recently so she knew what we were looking for and as we discussed while we were doing the field work she has followed Sarah Macy's footsteps in the past so she was pretty familiar with uh how things were working previously um the big difference between the 2021 audit and the uh village audit for 2022 you'll notice there wasn't a single audit um for this fiscal year a single audit's required if there are grant expenditures of over $750,000 and the village fell under that threshold this year um the big difference in a single audit is uh the testing of internal controls and making sure that the internal controls are adequately in place uh while an audit still performs walkthroughs of internal controls um it's not the actual testing of those controls um however we did do some testing uh when we first started the audit we were under the impression there would be a single audit um that later on changed overall though uh we did know that Jess's the internal controls in place for the village were sound and just as an audit I wanted to remind uh the council that um while we are performing many walkthroughs throughout our audit testing the audit necessarily is not designed to prevent or detect fraud um if that fraud if fraud was found during the audit we would certainly bring it to the council's attention um no such issues were noted this year and the purpose of the audit mainly is to uh just ensure that the financial statements are not misleading um and that they're materially uh fairly stated um from a financial standpoint and with the unmodified opinion um we had no such issues uh where the financial statements currently are not uh materially misstated um the government-wide financial statements uh as we've met I've talked about in the past years are on the accrual basis of accounting similar to um the way uh a business would report its financials the net investment at capital assets is $22 million of the uh 20 just over $25 million in total net position for the uh government funds you will notice that the village at June 30 2022 has a very low cash balance of just over a thousand dollars um I want to note that because right now there is the receivable due um a due to from the town of just over around 10.3 million dollars um so that is cash that is available to the village on in the town's funds with the separation currently in process the village has established some bank accounts however as of now those funds have not been fully transferred over just because the village is working out some implementation on software for AP processing mainly um but I spoke with Jess recently and I think the plan is to have all a lot of the cash back in to the um into the city uh before fiscal year 2023 um you'll also see that the town is still maintaining its uh the accounts receivable on property taxes for the village and it is expected that as of July 1st 2023 for fiscal year 2024 those receivables will be going back onto the village side as well so next year's financial state art 2024's financial statements specifically will look a lot different from what we're looking at today um the fund financial statements which come after the government-wide statements are more on a modified accrual basis of accounting and they fall more aligned with your budget for the general fund again the receivables are low and mostly consist of uh build grant revenues and that's because the property taxes like I mentioned are on the town's books there is an increase in deferred revenue from prior year and that is due to the ARPA funds that were received uh of about 1.6 million dollars through June 30th and I uh the council has not there's been no approved uh use of those funds yet but it is disclosed in the footnotes that those are available to be spent in future years um the equity restrictions for the fund balance you can find on pages 27 and 28 uh and this is the earnings from past years that are available to be spent going forward the village currently has a general fund balance of $822,000 and of that amount about just over $150,000 has been assigned for specific future expenditures I believe about $50,000 is assigned specifically for um the fifth uh plan deficit uh for 2023 a budget budgeted fund deficit in 2023 um and overall uh general fund operations for the fiscal year 2022 resulted in a decrease in fund balance of $42,000 the proprietary funds are the next set of financial statements these are more business funds and meant to be self-sustaining they contain consist of the water sanitation and wastewater funds as well as EJRP all of those funds in 2022 resulted in a positive uh increase in that position um and then those financial statements are followed by the footnotes uh these are more detailed explanations of many of the numbers in the financial statement balances more specifically the allocations of fund balances the fund balance assignments uh capital asset details and a summary of the debt uh held by the village at your end those footnotes are followed by then uh required supplementary information and other additional supplementary schedules probably the most useful um as a member of the community would be the budget to actual schedules which is required supplementary information these schedules show the budgeted to actual um uh results for the year um by department and then the other supplementary information uh highlights the non-major fund um balance sheet and income statement that tied to the uh the the fund financial statements in the beginning of the state of the financial um that's all I have but I want to open it up for questions to the council as well as uh Jess and Regina uh thank you for that Jess um I saw that you sent an email earlier about the acronym that I butchered earlier and I'm not going to try to say it again you just want to do you just want to talk very briefly as to what that is and what was in here because it yeah sure so the audit report that was originally included in the meeting packet for tonight did not include the management's discussion and analysis um basically that's my report that I prepared that summarized with all of this other gobbledygook at the end that no one can understand um trend leading it to uh and even still it's not super easy for everyone to understand um so that uh has been updated it is included in the hard copies that we have available here at the office um and it also has been updated on the website so that report is included in the pdf that's on the website and I apologize for that that was a complete oversight on our end I opened the financial statement today and noticed that so I sent that right to Jess so my apologies there it's all good thank you for that and Jess I read it just before I came in it I give you self credit it was pretty clear with her very well Bill so um you mentioned the very beginning I think you said that it was a clean unmodified opinion can you put that in delay people speak yeah so uh basically how I went into after that how the financial statements are not materially misstated um we didn't have to disclose there was no disclosure in our opinion for any issues um that we found where for example uh we found a material misstatement in the town the village did not want to make the adjustment to correct the misstatement there were no significant internal control issues that we were made aware of during the audit procedures great um and no significant material adjustments that were made great thank you for that um if you had to uh distill all of this into two other say bullet points to somebody who does not look at a audit report on a regular basis what would you say are important things to point out in just those two big takeaways um one is the cleanliness of the audit or the trial balance before we start the audit um especially in the general fund I think when you look month to month and track your budget and the specifically the department heads are tracking their budget um on a month to month basis the numbers from my from what I'm looking at are accurate so we're not coming into the audit and seeing a um a lot of errors that we're having to adjust uh so as the council is looking at figures throughout the year um those figures pre-audit are accurately stated is what I found um second uh I would say the dedication of the staff uh that I had noticed from Jess and her commitment to working with Courtney at the town throughout the year as well as Dan um during the audit Dan is the new town finance director they're still having to work together and with the accounts payable um and I think that that is a big part of 2022's audit and still in 2023 so um I think that's another highlight that's great I appreciate that uh my my last question I'll and then I'll turn it over to the other counselors here um I've asked this in previous years as well especially as we've gone through separation I assume you can confirm that uh it's very easy to tell which dollars are at this point in time village dollars and which dollars are town dollars and that that is all very well and cleanly accounted for and there's no concern that all uh dollars for the village now city have been accounted for and uh there's not been any inappropriate um uh use or access um by the town or vice versa yes everything that we looked at we did not see any such issues they're actually very easy to identify um with the gl account coding the town has a specific three-digit code and the village has its own three-digit code one one starting with 200 the other with 100 um and over the course of the audit we look at many invoices um some material others not as material but so large and small dollar value invoices and we did not come across anything where um it was allocated to the town or inappropriately allocated to the village as well great I will also know on that there are due to do from that trend trend basically each fund has a receivable or payable balance for um payments that go back and forth and those all do reconcile to each other um which might if they didn't might be an alert to um an expense being picked up by the village inaccurately or by the town inaccurately I appreciate that especially with the uh 10 million due to or due from yeah that's a material amount yes not due to right Raj George I'm good thank you I'm good I I really appreciate all the effort that was done here okay Jess is there anything we haven't asked is there anything that you think is important that we know or Regina is there anything else that any questions you have or anything else that you think is important that we know the only thing I'll draw attention to because it did happen during this fiscal year is that the so again last annual meeting um voters didn't approve to increase the fund um unassigned fund value to 15 percent previously had been 10 percent um so we that is incorporated in the the mdna and in the the audit put notes and everything this year as well great all right all right any other questions great thanks very much thank you bill thank you have a nice evening you as well and Jess I think you're still here with the discussion of FY 24 proposed budget and capital program budget it's like we were planning to have you be here for the night yes thank you for saying that Raj and at that point sorry no no I it completely was close to me yeah no no that wasn't a cruise if not an honest thank you thank you for thanking the staff who do this and so yes thank you um okay uh so you've got a memo in your packet it's fairly similar to the memo from last time uh where we have just identified a few other things that we um are recommending that you include in the budget itself um some of that is around actual expenses for the election for the last two years those costs have been larger than the 15 000 budgeted and we've been able to look and check to make sure that the share of the school district is accounted in that number and so we still think that you need to add that 17 000 in there um we've talked about the um what we're estimating to be about 10 500 for the additional committees uh again what we're saying there is just that those are stipend dollar amounts for potential um committee members um no posted lot postage line for the clerk's office so just a small amount of money there um and uh just the potential thinking about um other spaces that that we might need uh going forward not as confident or sure about that one but just something to think about as well um so and then just schedule wise um there um oh sorry this is also exciting information that's on here i'm looking at my last meetings version instead of what's in your packet so um jess i should let you tell this information you're the one who collected it okay that was very excited to dig into this so we have under our belt now a full quarter of local option tax revenue and for the quarter october through december we came in at just about 200 and 240 800 dollars um so i've been backing forth with my contact at the state and her and i kind of hatched out a method to project a year's worth of revenue and so um with her coordination um we are now safe to assume that our annual revenue could be about 745 thousand dollars um and basically what we're doing is we're taking that one quarter that we know of so far um factoring that that includes holiday sales so that quarter is higher than what we would normally see so what we did was we took the other three quarters of the year um reduced that number by 30 percent to come up with the annual amount this is exciting it's way more than what was projected when when you all and sarah started this work a few years ago so um it's really exciting absolutely trying to hold that and yeah when i saw your email you were not alone yeah thinking about things like the train station and other uses other capital needs yep well if i can jump in i'm i'm looking at the capital project list going out to f y 28 yeah and you guys i i know that probably there's all kinds of plans of what we can do with the money as soon as we get but i think you would agree with me um that the biggest thing that that we can do with a great big chunk of that money is start tucking it away because you've got all together looks like about seven million dollars in capital project speech and and i'll tell you andrew knows we back in 2012 took out a 11 took out a three and a half million dollar bond because the prior to that prior boards have kept taking all the capital project lists and pushing them and pushing them and pushing them and all of a sudden we were at the foot of the mountain we couldn't push him anymore and the only way we get on top of it was to take a bond and i would as i leave the board the best advice i could give the rest of you please take as much of that money and don't think of new stuff you can do with it stick it away in a capital improvement fund because you're going to need it and as i've said before one big rain event like happened two years ago um and that was a that was a major a bullet that we dodged because fema came in and wrote a million dollar check but that that would have that would have taken everything out of your capital you would have had nothing and you would have had to take out a bond because you can't have a whole part of the city just cut off by floodwater yeah so please keep keep your keep your prep your capital project list in mind don't don't get get real excited about this because you're gonna think how much money you're gonna put oh no i i came from a community that had lots of deferred yeah everything yeah um so uh i am super familiar with that i mean we going as far as bonding for painting yes yeah so yeah don't want to do that i am like so averse to that um and i will also say to george's point this money is sitting in a totally separate fund um i created a special revenue fund so that it is not mangled with any other general fund it'll be easy to track and um just make transfers back and forth yeah and it does beg that question of within a relatively short time period i don't know how well to define short and or relative we do need to define how we're going to use this so that way it is we can report back to the community how we plan to use this this money through i think we also yes i'll just that's great no or another 500 hour committee no no all right richard's still here great um so in terms of the questions that we have uh that are right in front of us here the potential need for for the additional space you mentioned that somewhere between that that 6 and 12 000 um that's one of those things where i think that um having uh to take some time to think about what might be realistic what might be needed how much that might um i would look to you to try to bring that into something a little bit closer um and say this is what the recommendation would be uh to me to to just throw out a number i feel like i'd be making basically throwing spaghetti in the ceiling and seeing less duck yeah and i guess even just to to further one of the things in our our packet here is that we can either approve the budget tonight or we can wait until march 8th personally i'd like to see us wait until march 8th use every moment we can to make sure that we've got the best budget in front of us that we've received all the public input that we can in this process and then on that march 8th meeting that's the deadline we must make a decision at that point in time yep sounds good okay so on this portion um typically we've had our discussions uh we've then turned it over to public comment do you want to flip this a little bit differently see if we have any other comment that we haven't already received in the budget and then have our discussion sure sound good it's a little crazy yeah yeah it's dangerous all right so last time we went to zoomland first so why don't we come into the room here does anybody have any questions we haven't talked about the budget yet today uh about the budget you have id yeah what was that you guys estimated for that one for the year for the year or for that has been received no for the year yesterday approximately 745 000 yep any we had eight hundred and eighty two thousand i wasn't given up with that eight hundred and eighty two thousand not fun budget the article was talking about where we're sorry i'm sorry that's the fund balance at the end of the year the balance in the general eight hundred and eighty two thousand and the sole manner in which in which money ends up in the fund value is through income nothing i don't know the tax dollars that did that shifted i'm right so jay let's take it out for the other side that didn't get spend that ended up being left over after we voted in our budget any revenue source it does not need to just be tax dollars it could also be grant funding that hasn't been spent it could be any other type of revenue but yes including tax money eight hundred and eighty two thousand dollars so again my point about our budget and how much money he's ending up in by flood funds or the fund balance or it's not something that you are going to build the city that you want to build it's money that we're paying taxes and trusted to you to look after so i think quite honestly right now the way that the money's being viewed does feel like you'd be rid of not not only your particular interest it feels very much as more money being used monopoly money it's very exciting to have the new city and it's great we're all proud of everyone's thrilled about it but quite frankly eight hundred and two thousand and a fund budget that's almost a million dollars and i can't believe that i personally voted up on budget fifteen percent sitting here kicking myself but quite frankly no then slowed down so the fund balance is the rainy day fund right whereas we if you recall from a couple of years ago when we had the halloween flood that washed out the culverts at densmore literally shut down the road the road was engulfed by the by the river had fema not come through yeah we would not have had the hundreds of thousands of dollars that it would have taken to do that and so this is a portion as to why the best practices within the government accounting standards is to go to fifteen to twenty five percent for a fund balance okay so i hear you saying that you feel that it's a slush fund um trying to use your your word that is the experts telling us that the very minimum as to what this should be and we're at that very minimum low end fair about the fifteen percent i appreciate that but i do feel that everybody's in this image and i heard georgia think it's still not sitting well with me there's there's it's not it doesn't feel right to me the way the budget is being done it feels it feels like i said i don't need to review it again it doesn't feel like we're really and truly understanding taxpayer but i'm probably not landing my comments and exactly the way it speaks and i appreciate interacting about the fund balance but i'm just thinking to myself money up front for unfan i'm just not i'm not here for the thanks any other question can i just i think this is relevant that there's a distinction between that full 822 thousand and the actual unassigned so there's much less um which is only actually seven point two six percent of our f y 23 budget so we're we're really pretty low in comparison to what you even had as a policy before i know that's in our packet somewhere i just tried to do words fine and i couldn't do it anyway i'm sorry if i'm having bad interpersonal communication skills when i wasn't looking at you but i was trying to also find what the number is in here yeah it's easiest if you go to 8 a so page 194 of the packet thank you reflect on that for a minute 194 of the packet oh it's almost at the end so on this thank you that's why i couldn't find point take it no no it's not it that's so in the fund balance we can have funds that are set aside for some purposes and some that are not set aside the ones that are set aside are for things like health reimbursement accounts termination benefits so if somebody's going to leave we can then make sure that we have the benefits of the funding to pay them for their time that they are due for like a crude sick time things like that so in terms of how much of that fund balance is unassigned literally sitting there that could be spent for another purpose unless i'm misreading this is 457 thousand nine hundred and fifty one thousand dollars which is that seven point two six percent of the budget still have a million dollars and i think i'm just making my point in the wrong location my point still it is what i want to say it's the thing that i would say is why i'm still thinking and i appreciate they really are on these pieces and if they're not coming out there's so much to be never to have a whip in it and they're not making sure that we're going to have to get together thanks okay and thanks for that word um yeah Regina Jess thank you for pointing out what the number is i appreciate that and the page any other questions on the budget seeing nothing in the room going to zoomland if you have any questions on the budget please go ahead raise your hand rsm i think that's risa that's not i apologize thank you it is me sorry i i know you've gone over this so many times and i greatly appreciate it last year for example right around this time there was a discussion about whether we should be purchasing masks and i believe that that ended up not happening but there was an earmarked amount for those masks so rather than that amount going directly back to whatever line budget it would have been as unused funds it goes into this overall fund is that correct with that one no because that was actually the arpa funding so okay it's not our property tax dollars it's it's the federal money that came to us so yes the grand scheme of things our taxes are somewhere in there um but it's not the sx junction municipal taxes for that okay thank you so some things do some things don't grant funds arpa etc is handled differently than uh i'm trying to think of anything okay if we were able to have done the kind of party sort of annual event where we'd have dinner and there'd be funds for that if we this year when we didn't do it if we had had money put aside for it it would then go into this sort of general rainy day kind of fund am i at all close yes that is absolutely correct that would be money that would be paid for from the general fund that or that would come into the general fund that did not go to that purpose so that would go into the fund balance okay thank you yeah thank you and don't feel that it isn't or that it's wrong for this to be confusing i'm going to be very honest with you i teach a graduate course in public and non-profit budgeting to master's level students and this is some of the things that we talk about and it's confusing to them um so this is a confusing topic and that's okay thank you yeah it's arpa it's just it's sitting in arpa as we wait to figure out our timeline for building or redoing the building here as that's likely going to take or end up where that's going to go anybody else in zoomland all right right so i think in terms of our uh the proposed budget that we have the only other unresolved portion is with our stipends and i'm just trying to pull up this part of our agenda so with where things were left and george you provided that memo on your thoughts it was pretty clear that george and dan were not in agreement with going up to the amount that was proposed was there a different proposal uh yeah um you know i've done a lot of speaking with people in the community and listened to some of our meetings back um that's some interesting advice from other folks um and i think you know cutting that back and spending some time so doing a more combined approach where we're being more intentional about exploring what we can do to welcome and even develop interest in the positions and in the work thinking towards the portion of our charter that discusses the commission or i don't know what to call it i'm gonna call it a commission committee that is looking at how we our community is governed that has to happen within three years so we'll finish this budget and the next budget we do for 25 will have to have some money in that and presumably then some guidance and some effort on us to give them a charge of the charter through us to that um and really kind of looking at how that looking at how much of that work can be included in that obviously so if they're if they're spending a year or six since six or nine months and then reporting out the last three months right um then having that hopefully be part of that like what can we do structurally um over and above dollars um so i'm thinking of backing down quite a bit um and again i want to stress that the 6500 number it was calculated on a really good report but i never intended it for it to be the answer and the one source um so i think that thinking about that and how we can really kind of get to some of the really find some creative solutions and and look at how we operate in a more holistic way um so i guess i'd propose something more like 2500 which was an increase of a thousand that would cover um for instance that would cover maybe sitting for the meetings 24 meetings for instance if there were a couple hours each um which we're getting a little on the tooth here for this one um so that would be that would be what i'm thinking and then an intentional effort which i don't mind working through as a council member to really kind of find other people on other council other employees or other counselors and other or trustees or select board members in other communities and really kind of explore this um amber had a really good suggestion the other day um of i'm gonna put you on the spot because i could barely see you um you know talking to the uh there's a there's quite the cash of of folks running for Burlington City Council um and i thought that was an interesting point you made about have you reached out to talk to all of them um the one thing i'll say about that is just that you too is they have a $5,000 stipend and it's Burlington so there's always a million people that want to but um but i think it's a valid point um that we really need to and i i just want to say too that i also don't think i ever said that this was the one and only you know it and that it is not about how much it's not solely about how much like city counselors paid you know it wasn't the dollar amount to to receive payment for the service it was recognizing that there are costs to doing this for some people and trying to address those through that so there's a interesting nuance there that can we can all get caught up on I think and um and the last thing i'll say is it it's not intended to say that anything any of us are doing now or the motivations or intentions of anybody that'll run in the future or has served in the past or to become called into question for you know i i think there are awful a lot of people out there that when i do something for their community and i think we need to hear from them and some of them want to serve and just don't see it as possible that's what you know and to Dan's point still have to get elected which is no small no small thing so that's all i have to say about it i just i i feel that my position really hasn't changed probably i get it you know honestly obviously i i completely appreciate where you're coming from and what the what the your your desire is here but i'm gonna just put that aside for a moment and just say i think we've gotten a sense that the budget is already pretty packed and it's packed with stuff that i would describe as i mean in my mind i think discretionary and non-discretionary i mean fire safety police stuff like that but then stuff that we that is aspirational like um we we we hope to create a committee we hope to create you know have a rec committee and an economic development committee or whatever it's going to be um and so we're going to put money in the fund for that so we have a lot of aspirational funding that's already in the budget and i am concerned even though i heard you andrew we didn't promise there would be a tax cut um a tax break um from uh separating from the town nevertheless i think the implication was there which we did not do to quell that there would be some kind of a tax significant tax savings and that didn't happen now we know the reason it didn't happen we know all the reasons multiple reasons but nevertheless um we wound up giving people i wouldn't say it's a huge tax increase but it's about it's a typical the kind of typical tax tax increase that i've normally seen and um but so i think i think we were in dialogue with so many people in a positive way i think the it's going to be a hard pill to swallow that we didn't get much of a tax break and we're actually getting a tax increase um from separating from the town and i think now is not the time to also give ourselves a pay raise you're not going to be able you're not going to be in every household to be able to explain why the city council is getting a pay raise and i i just think as i as i into the horizon i would just say you guys you know you you've got to you've got to weigh your responsibilities yes you have a responsibility to try to identify systemic barriers but you also have a responsibility to spend money really wisely and i i in my mind i think right now i would like to see a little bit more thought i i like some of the stuff that you were talking about about looking at other ways to get people in um i would like to have seen more of that before i i vote on giving a big tax increase for the city council how much is the 7500 is about 0.1 right yeah dollar 80 this would be about a dollar 80 i know but not insignificant but no it's not but i wouldn't call it i wouldn't but but i think we're at a point where we're like you know we we can always say on an 11 million dollar budget well an extra 20 grand an extra 15 grand an extra 30 grand what's the big deal but i guess those those monies add up i guess we're prior we're differing which is absolutely fine we're differing on what a priority is going forward i guess and i don't think we're gonna agree on it so for me a priority is sort of future-proofing the community to make sure we're starting out set up structurally to make sure we're hearing from everybody we need to hear from and we're represented well to me that's a commitment worth a dollar 80 in a year on the average amount of over and above whatever else we're suggesting i don't believe the community is going to say no to that i have heard one neutral question about it and an awful lot of support for it because i think when this community hears what the purpose is it's it's it's not untrue that we're giving ourselves a raise that's how the thing works that's how it works you know and we're not asking to put it in the charter so we're able to revisit this year after year and yeah i think we've talked it through i i totally and that's not none of that is to say that i don't hear i don't hear everything you're saying and and understand it and and i think about it you know because partly and this isn't to partly because you've got a lot more experience at this than i do um and i and i'm not trying to not blow in smoke i think it's it's a hard thing to propose this and it's a hard thing because it's hard to know and measure right if it's had any you know we can we can put money towards a grant program for development and figure out if it's going to work if it worked you know this is going to take a lot more nuance and trust yeah to do it and i recognize that i mean putting money you know coming up with some idea of putting money into some kind of outreach that educates people or something like that is is one thing i mean i guess i what your statement was about setting us up to make sure every we hear from everybody i agree we need to do that i guess the real to crystallize the point of disagreement is i i disagree with your with how you want to achieve that i i think there are other ways to achieve that besides giving the council a pay raise that's all i not disagreeing with the goal i'm just disagreeing with the with the means and i'm just one person regardless of how i could have been here 50 years that doesn't make my voice any more important than the other four of you so that's fine and and i and i think you're raising good points i think we've had a really good debate over it um and you know and i don't want to be the the one person who's just this there's five people here so um the rest of you are absolutely free to to jump in and speak your minds on that amber do you have any thoughts on this one i don't have anything new that i want to share okay could you give me a direction or give us a direction as to whether you're leaning one way or another on the 2500 that would help to know whether there's one person for something two people three people it would just help in terms of facilitating this conversation sure yeah i i will support the 2500 um and and the plan to continue to look at this uh moving forward so you would be okay with 2500 and continuing to look at this moving forward yes okay so then as i've said uh previously we can either do something to try to change the system and see how that works or we can do nothing and hope the best i'd rather try to do something um instead of just sitting back and hoping something else to change the system i would also be in favor of raising it to 2500 and seeing how uh trying to commit more efforts from the city council i know you and i have talked privately about trying to make equity something that we have an intentional focus on we've talked at the board level here about putting money directly towards having some kind of efforts to make sure that the next iteration of the board is going to work on this um more more pointedly in the upcoming fiscal year and so hopefully we can fold that into as well as roge talking about the committee commission whatever it is to look at governance um as we promised we would do and so i think that was the last portion of the budget where we didn't have agreement on so hopefully then for the next meeting those changes that are within the memo um increasing the stipends to 2500 getting some further clarity of that potential for space need and then i've now come back to the march eighth meeting where we have to make a final decision i would like to ask one other question of everyone now um i've also said that i am really not happy with just putting this into the general fund i would really like to see any and we may have a major disagreement just philosophically to me it seems that to me a pay raise for the city council should be pulled out and posed to the community the taxpayers a separate question um i have a problem with putting into the general fund because i think any pay increase for an elected board is always going to be controversial and if you know if we think the community is on our side if we're doing this on behalf of the community if we think this makes the community better therefore it seems you would want to actually ask the community's opinion and i i would urge you um in the ultimate uh next the next time we meet and we put the budget together i would just urge you to really consider that i i think i think you could really generate some bad feelings by sticking this into the general fund um it just is a line and i i really do and i know you you don't maybe you don't agree with me but i really would urge you to do that um so i know you've talked before about the how the have a separate way of agreeing with you but about having it be whether this is something we decide versus the source for it the source this is a new one so you're suggesting about possibly say the local option tax say no no other sort no no i'm saying you would put a separate question on the ballot saying shall uh shall the the city council include a proposal to increase the stipend uh for the city council uh in the 2025 budget for x number of dollars i would really appreciate if we don't have outbursts from the audience to then interrupt the conversation so please i would ask this is not the time for public comment all right yeah i i don't want to start up uh but i that's that was my proposal it was like it was to say obviously you can't you can't have a a proposal that that retroactively amends the budget everyone's voting on so i'm saying why not put this as a separate question that that and so would have to be worded properly so that next december when you're putting the 2025 budget together there you have the the approval of the community for this money to raise the stipend for the next budget that you're putting together okay so yeah and the advantage of that is that is that it distances everybody so it makes it very clear that you're not doing this just for yourselves you're doing this for the board that's going to be in place in a year from now and i think that would help sell it to the community a little bit better yeah totally hear what you're saying i was just getting hung up on at the beginning you were talking about the funding source but it's really the decision-making process it's the decision-making okay no obviously that's all i was this is all coming from the general fund so no no okay just appreciate that i just want to ponder that for two weeks plenty of time any other questions on that comment so then going into where are we now the department had conversation with just morris just hey i'm still here um so if you'll recall uh at some point last spring summer um we started doing these department head conversations kind of a six month look back six month look forward mine is not six months i did the year uh just because there is so much going on i think that is important you know you guys don't see this every day um so it's important to just bring you up to speed on where we're at and what the next steps are especially related to separation um so over the last year um kind of our primary focus in the finance department has been obviously getting through the audit building the FY 24 budget um but also focusing on how do we um set up our duties day to day through the separation process um get everyone cross-trained and trained on new duties that they'll be assigned so part of that work has been um um you know the physical separation of different software programs that we use um physically moving all of our the finance team over here to two wing and so we are all located in this building with the rest of the city staff which is awesome um and uh being able to fill our third approved finance position early um so we have uh Shannon started in December um and she basically she she also came from Milton um they're gonna really hate us i'm shunned in my own town no no they're fine they're fine uh but having someone who comes with a lot of experience and specifically experience with the vision that i saw for this team moving forward as a city um so it's been awesome to kind of like pull all those pieces together and have the support of not just you know the the council and the staff and Regina um but the the community as well um it's been fantastic so we are um kind of nailing down the day to day we've adjusted and and revamped redone and in one case um Cindy's job description is completely new um so divided up the duties so that internal controls are being met we've got segregation of duties um and cross training with other departments on certain duties too so we have backup we've got coverage in case someone gets hit by that bus um so uh to this point we have so numeric is the system on which all of the finance and clerk world and assessors function within the city um so as of july 1st when we officially became the city of s extension there were some things that we had to separate out immediately um marriage licenses dog licenses land records things like that so it's mostly clerk's office um functions but i susan and i worked very closely to you know she worked on kind of the the day to day how do we physically get this separated and i worked on the back end and then right to figure out how do we get it separated here and get the city entities kind of up and running um so we've done that so far right now um i'm working on getting all of the ap processing we use another of a standalone system for ap approvals for invoice approvals for payment and then that links back into numeric as well so i'm working on getting that set up and separated hopefully in the next month um our bank accounts have been established um and actually hopefully we'll be able to start using that with our pay our first payroll next week we'll come out of that account so dan and i have been working very closely we have uh regular check-ins where we kind of just sort of run through um the separation stuff but also we're still working as a team the town and the city staff are very much still interconnected and working together every day and i will admit i was nervous when Courtney left because i we worked really well together and we had we had really good momentum built up headed into the separation process but dan has been awesome to work with so um he's kind of like let me keep keep the charge on the separation side and um there are tasks that he's sort of taken the lead on so that i can put my focus on that project yeah um so i mean the memo has a list of a lot of details um that we're working on but i think like i mentioned in the budget presentation um continuing work on that capital planning and getting the committee back together and and really putting our heads to developing that plan further um and uh we're doing things like working with the state right now um on separating our grand list and the tax billing and uh the state is also implementing a new completely new software program that's being designed and developed specifically for the state of Vermont which will be used for grand list it's going surprisingly well um and again there's been really good coordination i have contacts at the state at ppr for all of these different pieces that we're working on um and the team that we've pulled together is uh state town and city staff um numeric representatives in this axiomatic the new vendor that the state is using um they've all been awesome about coming together as a team and working on s6 and s extension specifically so we are actually going to be doing in the next three to four weeks we're going to be doing a test run of our task billing process um to make sure that we're going to go for july and august so there's there's a lot of like detail work happening but it's really big um have really big implications across the board so um ultimately you know i when i came in here uh when i interviewed i was told you've got three years to figure this out like no rush um yeah not that but i well and i came in like ain't no way of waiting three years like rip the band-aid off um and so to come in and have the support like i said from from rad who was kind of leading the charge was my direct supervisor when i started and then with when regina came on from you guys from all of you supporting like when i said i want to hire someone before july you guys made it happen you approved it and so just thanks and appreciation for being in a in a world that um has allowed me to come in and just run with it it's been awesome thank you and especially in the sense of when we were talking about separation in the back of my mind my biggest concern is from a policy stance it's yes this is what we need to do for our community and once this is implemented though that i don't envy just that role i can only imagine how difficult this is going to be the amount of things that you we roll your staff are going to have to deal with um this my assumption had been that the finance department was going to be the most significantly impacted and um hopefully uh we would be able to find the right person to fit and you are we did so thankful that you're here that you've done what you've been able to do and get us to where we are in the the time period that you have which is beyond what i thought would have been possible no regina and i have check-ins and i'm like i feel like i got nothing done this week and then i look at this and i'm like oh sorry i did you've literally undone however many years of of consolidation co-locations whatever have you um in so much less time than what it took to put it together and yeah these two tried to make it really hard yeah so yeah nothing but significant appreciation um i also love uh it's interesting to see like implementing bi-week payroll and some of those things i also appreciate the thoughts that you've had around ways that we could improve the system of finance and ways that we could make that work better um make that be more efficient always appreciate that so yeah and i will say that sarah's still very much on the line i've got her cell phone so nice i emailed her this morning actually i was like okay i need you um and she's been kind of just a good i mean even when i was in melton and she was in essics we were constantly in contact with each other bouncing ideas off of each other um so it's awesome that like i still have that resource and she still loves essics and essics function so she connected um but i was asking her like okay this whole cash separation thing like helped me figure this out um because it's just a it's a timing issue right like you've got to kind of freeze frame everything and figure out okay this is the money today that needs to come over to the city but we know that finishing out the rest of the year we're going to have tax payments coming in that we're going to have to divvy up and so working through that process it's i'm a nerd so it's super fun for me um and um it's great to have other people that are just as excited about these things that we have roge amber george hi bradina just really quick i'm just grateful to hear how how wonderfully it's working with the town um that's really nice to hear so thanks to them yeah and and i will say on another piece i all the all your communications are great you know sometimes uh that can be an issue sometimes you're thinking of something we're just not but your communications the email and things we're getting here are fantastic you're doing a really good job with that nice and clear no gobbledygook none well it could be but it looks like it looks like truth to me so thank you just yeah and so now we have the discussion consideration of a dog ordinance amendment in our rules of procedure for dog bite hearings yes um so we have um talked about this last on january 25th and so you've got um a memo in your packet that just describes the different pieces that we've been talking about so what you've got in your packet is both the rules of procedure so this is a document that claudian worked on based on vlct's model right um rules of procedure um so we can if it's helpful we can kind of start um by going through this um regina would you mind putting that on the screen yes thank you ambro be with us in spirit okay and if we just toggle okay um so essentially this is just a helpful two page policy document so when we get these requests we can figure out what how we want to uh work them through the system so um as you folks uh talked about already it would be helpful if we hold these at a special meeting as opposed to a regular business meeting because there's can be very lengthy um then it describes essentially how the um council runs through the process open the hearing who gets to speak in what order how you have folks respond to those um questions um and so most of this is fairly straightforward in terms of process it also describes at the end that the deliberations so this is a choice this says that the deliberations are in private it's a choice that you can make you can have these in a public session or a private session um uh and also it uh explained earlier in this as well um you can like any other you know these sort of run like more trial kinds of cases much like the drb runs you can continue if you don't have enough information you can um make a decision you can close it and make a decision that night um so hopefully this helps kind of just in terms of not the policy of what you're doing but just the procedures of um how you would run these hearings um can i jump in yeah um and i don't if you don't mind and i don't maybe this isn't the right place and i should wait should wait until you finish everything but it looks like to me this might be the right place and and i had asked the question before and i it's not that big a deal but it might be helpful when we in terms of evidence and as i i said you know and and amber is here and she can probably speak more to this but you know a criminal court where someone's life is at stake you know there's levels of doubt and uh uh levels of evidence and in in like a high level criminal case you need proof beyond reasonable doubt um that's not where we're going for you have another level of evidence which is clear and convincing evidence and you have a a lower level which is the preponderance of evidence and that's like for administrative decisions and i i think that's where we are and the reason i say it it's very relevant to the to the case that we had already which is unless someone can absolutely uh categorically say yes that dog bit me and you have another person who saw it and said yes that dog bit that person um but what's generally going to happen with these things is there's going to be chaos and there's going to be maybe one dog going after another and someone is going to get bitten and we have to make a decision and we don't have an absolutely clear uh piece of evidence that that that absolutely proves that one dog bit somebody and so it would be good and i think in that case as i understand it we could use administrative evidence we can say the preponderance of evidence that the general thrust of the thing seems that that that that dog bit this person and we don't actually need someone to say yes i actually saw the teeth enter the flesh right but did did she talk about that at all or do you think that would be helpful to have that i maybe i'm no maybe i'm getting a little too crazy here but i i think that was that really did hang us up yeah i don't think it's too crazy to ask that question of claudine if she unless you have that yeah she i apologize because she did answer these questions and i didn't incorporate some of them okay i think this is probably a good one okay incorporate so in her opinion she thinks preponderance of evidence is the one that we would preponderance of evidence okay um okay all right okay in this case so we can uh we can divine that and incorporate it okay amber you want to weigh in on that i was just thinking you must watch a lot of tv or something i don't know i i probably do i probably no i i mean i think i think it's a valid point um there is uh further up in the um further up in this document it does talk about basically what the city council can take into consideration and whether you you know what you weigh um so it does it does start to get into that i can't remember exactly where it is rejina but um the first page and whether you you know you can you the city council where was it talking um maybe further up than that yeah by majority vote may exclude any irrelevant or reliable unnecessary um is any verbal testimony so it is kind of getting into that and um but i think it doesn't use those words personally it would be very helpful if it was spelled out i think it would be really good if we spelled it out because even though the five of us are brilliant others who follow us may not be so you know we might want to have it really written down there actually i'm kidding i actually would really helpful to have this right enough for me that it would be helpful yep great you can add that great any other questions on this piece before i move over to the ordinance nope is there any um i'll ask this nicely is there any way to limit or decide who we hear from so i think it talks about that a little bit in the sense um you can exclude repetitive evidence irrelevant unreliable or unnecessarily repetitive evidence perfect so having six people say the same thing over again yeah after the third we could say we've heard this yep yep yep oh hi amber hey andrew what's up um i actually had kind of a similar comment and whether we could set time limitations and i know i've mentioned this a couple of times um i don't remember if i've mentioned it in the city council meeting um or in a trustee meeting but i know with the planning commission we did um and so and i was also thinking about i was trying to remember where i'd heard this but there's this language about you know if you're if your neighbor your neighbor got up and said something you can get up and just say ditto you don't need to repeat exactly what your neighbor said if you want to just you know i agree with what john said but don't get up there and say exactly what john said again um i don't know about whether there is and i'm not sure how the rest of the council feels about setting time limitations for for folks to give comments but i i don't know where where the public rules come out on on that issue but i think it's tricky to have language that says by majority vote we may exclude any irrelevant um or unnecessarily repetitive evidence because what's going to happen is you're going to be in the heat of having this this evidence presented and you're going to have to say at that moment exactly what you said which is your thanks you just you're just you're just saying the same exact thing that your neighbor just said um so you can just go sit back down and i think there's a different way of trying to like deal with that without having to individually call the person out in every hearing that we have if that makes any sense yeah i mean let me be really clear what i'm trying to avoid is to hear appearing from people that want to discuss dog psychology and weren't at the incident um if if we don't think it's it's relevant necessarily and i don't mean to be flip about it but i think i think we run the risk of having repeat incidents where this is an emotional situation for everybody involved not just the victim but the people who are on the dog this is a big it's a big deal and they're going to bring everything they can bring to to you know save their dog and i i totally get it i just we can't be doing you know we have to have some kind of limitation i think that's what i'm trying to figure out is i think you right so so i i don't know where that i know how you do that well one of the other things that i'd like to see and and again i don't know what everybody else's thoughts are on this but there is the the line there that talks about you know all people offering written evidence still submits three copies of the evidence to the city council my preference for that is prior to the hearing so this is not a situation where we're getting we're getting documentation at the hearing that we are expected to review and weigh in on and and i don't know if that directly or indirectly answers some of what your concerns might be rash um because then you at least have you know what the you know what the evidence is prior to the hearing in front of you that's a good point yeah sure that's a good point it's definitely prior right yeah that would be good yeah yeah that would be good work just do keep in mind that there this is a tight time frame we have seven days once we get a complaint to get this scheduled and also the police officers have to literally serve both um person the attacker and the owner um so uh not to say that we shouldn't do that but just keep in mind the timing is tight yeah no i totally get that i i think what we say prior i mean a day before i mean it just it can't be get it can't what i want to try to avoid and and i generally have this opinion on city council meetings and we have the same you know when during planning commission meetings i don't like to get stuff at five o'clock before six thirty meeting that i'm expected to decipher and weigh on in on you know i mean that or this is a two-part hearing the two-part process where the day where the time period where we're doing all of this and receiving and then the decision comes down at the next city council meeting right so then we take everything in and maybe the at some portion of the next city council meeting because we can't do this offline um we meet either openly or an executive session or our choice um and we make that decision and announce it there um that's another you know yep that addresses the seven-day issue yeah and um right in terms of uh timing one of the things that was mentioned about the amount of time that people can talk personally it's something i struggle with setting a time limit to cut people off that's just a personal philosophical thing but if it is something that you all want just tell me and we can do that for as long as i'm in this chair if we want to put it in the document we can um we've had some speakers today who it takes a little longer for them to get their thought out and so to me to cut them off as it just takes them longer doesn't feel right and doesn't sit well with me but at the same time i understand that we all have things we've got to get done i i think it's going to be normally if people were just making a statement but i think what's going to happen is you're going to have people making a statement but then we're going to ask them questions uh and they could that it could it could easily go to 20 minutes um you know for someone if it's if it's a complicated situation you could have five different counselors asking someone the questions so you're going to say that everything has to happen in three minutes it's like idling it's going to be able to do that unless you leave yourself a lot of discretion to increase the time but um yeah i don't i don't know how you're going to do it i don't know i i don't i don't have a good way yeah i think the written testimony is probably the maybe we're going to still want to hear from people directly involved right i mean i definitely want to hear from from people were identifying as the victim and i definitely want to hear from people along the dog i mean none of these situations are seem to be very cut and dry right so you know we we could you could ask for everyone and you know whoever is going to be involved to write it you get a statement and you then you have a basically like a witness list ahead of time and you say we want to hear from these people um you know obviously the the principal people the dog owner and the victim but then deciding that then we could decide we can just maybe just not say we're going to throw it open and anyone who wants to come up to the mic we can say well we've got a list of five people here we want to hear from yeah and because i'm having a hard time i'm believing that i'm going to need to hear from someone who was not there right exactly for a dog but it's open minded try to be open minded on it and those character witness right but we've only done one that's a trickier one though and i don't know i'm not going to pretend to be a public meeting expert um but i don't if you open a meeting if you have a public meeting and you invite people to come for comments but then you don't allow them to speak i think that's going to be tricky when i i think i hear what you're saying george i don't think i ever anticipated that the person who is the complainant or the victim or the dog owner was going to be constricted by a three time minute time rule yeah that's not what i'm saying i am looking more at the and and i did not watch the the last hearing um but i gathered from the time in which it took for that process to occur that there were many people who basically spoke for more than three minutes either in support or not in support of the current situation and that's what i'm talking about is trying to trying to prevent a situation where you have a 30 minute filibuster of an individual who is trying is speaking for one way or the other that doesn't have any direct involvement it's not the complainant and it's not the dog owner right so you're still allowing that person the opportunity to weigh in but you're not giving them an open forum to spend an hour or 30 minutes telling us about the psychology of the dog or whatever it happens to me i was just trying is there a is there a semantic difference between a public that are with the hearing versus a public meeting and what what is allowed open meeting law i'm not sure in this kind of hearing would actually be subject to open meeting law that you know as a matter of who we can and can't decide to against to speak yeah i mean it's still a public hearing i don't in this subject to open meeting rules but i don't i don't again i don't know the semantics of whether you do have to i believe you do have to allow the public comment but i'm not entirely positive i think that's that's a cloning question for sure yeah we can ask her that um you know i just keep going back to a similar process as the development review board in those you can limit um participants in the development review board to what's defined as an interested party by statute this i don't think these hearings have quite that level of um definition and statute um so it's probably a little bit more um unclear you do have to with open meeting law you do have to allow members of the public the opportunity to talk this the roman supreme court has set limit or has said that and a board can't set limits that are reasonable so that people are given a reasonable opportunity to to have their opinion heard so you can set time limits um but they have if somebody is here they do have to have the capability to have their voice heard i guess i thought this this turned into something different with the with the procedures in the swimming end that this turned into more of a because we right i mean well let's say if there's a d we had a d rb um hearing i don't know hearing what was it uh appeal mm-hmm would anybody have been able to come or is that d rb regulation separate is that what you're saying yeah so in that appeal 15 people came to talk about that just wanted to talk about the fact that there was some aspect of this they had an opinion on um of that of that appeal or does is that completely separate because d rb rules limit those to interested parties yeah it's completely separate um i'm another example let's forget it yeah sorry but i'm only talking about the broadly the open meeting law and what that means in terms of how quasi-judicial proceedings fit in with that i don't know why you couldn't set say everybody's three minutes or four minutes but the chair has the has the right to extend the time mm-hmm and you could just say yeah this this person this is the this is the principal dog owners is the principal victims the principal witness you can allow that person to speak more but otherwise everybody has to try to keep their comments for the three minutes so that that that might work that sounds reasonable to me and the other thing we used to do with the planning commission is that we would put it at the bottom of the agenda right so that folks could be prepared and know that you know it might make it might make sense for them to prepare a written statement that they've timed to know that they're not going to go over that time period right and and you could even say the chair could even say ahead of time i i i won't hold you because you're you you're the only witness or whatever you're the the officer um who answered the call you you're not found by the time limit so just take your time and give us the story mm-hmm i've been to them they're they're long all of them i've been to a long i mean in some ways right that's understandable because some of it like if it is actually a dog bite that needs medical attention and obviously that's pretty major repercussions for that animal right right so i get it and i don't want to just for for people listening i'm not trying to i don't think any of us are trying to shorten this yeah just so we get out of here no no i think that each each of these hearings is going to have its own situation its own details and we'll give them the respect it needs but i i think we're all worried about another three hour yeah it didn't need to be okay that's helpful i can make some edits for that and um bring back anything else on this document before we move over okay so then what you've got in your packet is um the uh draft ordinance so um currently in the city uh hour chapter five is the regulation of dogs it is pretty slim this is essentially a reworked version of what the town has for a regulation of dogs um on their side and um it's it's just more comprehensive um it brings in the sorry i'm trying to zoom in on this so people can actually see um don't need to go through this whole thing but it essentially um updates the language and for the most part what this does is let me scroll down here to this um it brings in this definition of a potentially vicious dog so um if you folks remember basically what we had to work with in that uh case that you heard was really the state statute and the state statute really only comes into play if a dog bites a person um this potentially vicious dog concept in the um town ordinance um allows you to have a hearing and um put an order in place if there is a dog on dog bite based on this potentially vicious dog bite uh definition later on in this ordinance it describes that you are limited in your order um you basically stop short of euthanasia of a dog if that's uh if it's just a dog biting a dog if it's dog biting a human that's still um an option um there's just some few comments in here back and forth between claudian and i that we um can get straightened out pretty easily um just in terms of who's the um animal control officer um and just clarifying that definition that um bringing in the concept of um for a vicious dog if the person is attacked they um have sought medical attention basically um not sure too much else uh that you want to go through here it's really pretty straightforward um and it uh brings up the um how you have a how you have a hearing in terms of the state statute but this basically we just talked through a lot of that stuff in terms of the detail of it um and it talks about the process and and um how the incident is investigated i think that was it in terms of what else i wanted to kind of point out in here um this brings in the same sorts of things in terms of running at large and brings in a little bit more definition to that this is a um this working farm dog is just a statutory exemption so claudian got that in there um and i think that's about it any thoughts or questions about this and there's also in here is your current chapter five just so you've got that yeah that half page yeah yeah i see amber has her hand up uh so i have to admit i was a little confused um there is definitely a certain irony to the fact that i'm confused by the legal realm here but um um there in section 506 it talks about that's the investigation section that i know we added the potentially vicious dog um and maybe you can pull that section up for dina on the screen i'm trying to uh save you guys from the scrolling yep no it's all right and now i can't forget does that look right not yet yep so this section talks about when a person can file a complaint with the city council and it says when a dog has either bitten or inflicted bodily injury to to a person so am i correct in assuming that they still they can't file a complaint when the dog has bitten or in inflicted injury to an animal because i'm confused how these two sections are interplaying if that makes any sense yeah and this is the statue this is this is the vermont statue i didn't look at this but um and this is what the town has but i'm still just trying to grasp the concept of how it's how it's appearing and yet we're trying what we're trying i think what we're trying to do so are you are you asking like if it's not if they haven't been a person then this does there's no investigation yeah correct that's that's what i'm asking it's missing it's missing that chunk yep yeah okay good question and i think the same question and i think i've found it before how it comes into play but um i'm not sure i'm going to be able to find it it's 507 isn't that it doesn't that manage isn't that address oh yeah 507 does 507 addresses a potentially vicious dog and it says a person can file a written complaint um then it looks like it's kind of up to us it's discreet does that am i is that correct then it's discretionary if it's if it's a clear dog bite but if it looks like a dog that might bite someone it's concerning then we can shall contain the time because the vicious dog is in is in state statue that whole process is in state statue and there's a portion of it that says that basically municipalities can further define other types of activities like a potentially vicious dog so at that point we're outside of state statue and we have more discretion that doesn't need to be within seven days right right so yeah that's why it's a little bit shorter and less defined so okay but as i as i understand so so what so if they if it's a potentially vicious dog a dog that got that gets loose and one after another dog and but no no human was bitten and someone files a complaint it looks to me it says upon receipt of a potentially vicious dog complaint the legislative body may proceed as in the case of a vicious dog complaint so that that's how it gets in front of us yeah and then we look at the circumstances and make that decision right right and do we want that complaint coming to us or do we want that complaint going to the animal control officer tell you i would say animal control officer i think everything should be the same except for the trigger right it's either potential or it's vicious right and the other difference the only other difference would be whether we can euthanize the dog or not right all the investigatory stuff and the hearing and all that should be i mean otherwise are we because we can't just we can't just like take that in again we don't think it was a big deal so everything else would would sort of have to flow from in the same way that a vicious dog bite right but we want to know if the animal control officer made that decision we we probably want to know it we probably want to get right yeah that's some mechanism we are or report to send to us and we read and go yeah okay we agree with that because i really did appreciate that part of former chief gary right you know and the animal control officer here and and having all of that sort of yeah handled right we knew what we're dealing with um okay yeah that's helpful so we can get this to match up more consistently i mean unless unless it's assumed i mean the last sentence of a 507 a refers to the hearing so yeah i might just be a question of like is that good enough right the hearing is laid out somewhere then it's a hearing yeah yeah it's a little bit unclear though yeah it is it is amber did that clear that up for you i think so okay any other questions thoughts my only other question is do you think that you'd be able to get some feedback for our march 8th meeting so that we could have so we could actually warn the uh a public hearing so that way if we are resolved with the feedback that we get that we can then move this forward yeah you mean on march 8th have what you need to warn the hearing that night to or warn to warn the here could we warn the hearing tonight for march 8th gotcha and do you think that we'd get the responses from claudine so that way at the next conversation on march 8th if we feel good with the ordinance then we can just pass it at that point in time yes i'm confident we can get the feedback from claudine by then great also asking as i in my own neighborhood have recently heard of two other dog on dog bites in these past three weeks it's a thing i like very much more all this is going to put it that way i i think it's great i think it's very good it's really helpful so if there are no other questions that's i'd very find now i gotta follow along here um i've got that yeah thank you for you but i didn't attain the motion on the screen with amendments or however you want to say do we want to hear from people in the audience first any questions comments zoomland questions comments concerns well i'll make the motion okay i moved the city council warrant a public hearing on march 8th 2023 at 6 30 to receive comment on the following changes to the sx junction municipal ordinances to replace the existing chapter five regulation of dogs in its entirety with the proposed chapter five regulation of dogs as or just leave it i think you'll leave it we didn't make dogs period or yeah i'll second yet any further discussion hearing none all in favor signify by saying aye aye those opposed say nay that was unanimous thank you and so march 8th in theory we would be able to pass the moment and we are on to the consent i'll second any further discussion hearing none on favor signify by saying aye aye those opposed say nay also pass unanimously and into the reading file and council comments anything broadly you want to talk about 954 at night well that's leaving the witness you're welcome not a thing hearing none i would entertain a motion to adjourn so move second any further discussion hearing none all in favor signify by those opposed say nay great have a good night everybody recording stopped and i guys have a good night and right so she seems to be real uh-oh really really didn't mean any