 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Bill Cardwell of CNC custom drums and Gladstone drum shells. Bill, welcome to the show. Thank you very much Honored to get to be on your podcast. It's it's an honor to have you here This was actually a request from a from a listener So this is really cool that we get to do this and and honestly the show is typically like I think I told you before it's about like Leedy in the 20s and all this stuff and and you are a little bit of a newer company But you were just telling me that it has a lot of vintage heritage. So I'm excited to learn about this Why don't we go back to the beginning and just like I said to you before we did the interview I don't know much about the history of CNC and Gladstone drum shell So why don't you take it from the beginning and and teach us about basically your history and on these into the two parts of your company? Well, let's do that. That would that would be very easy for me to do I worked for a Then a 14 billion dollar a year corporation and the chemical industry and Didn't like it a whole lot, but I I would play the radio all the time And I would listen to talk radio talk radio was big back in the other we're talking early early 1980s and this guy I was listening to this guy on the radio and He was talking to a caller who wanted to do something to make some extra money I was wanting to make some extra money because I wanted to buy a new PA system for my band back then when you had a band you had to have your own PA system and And sound man and everything when you set that up and played so I was trying to make some I wanted to make some extra money, you know, because you know, there were kids and everything else and Life to take care of so this guy goes What do you love and what can you do? Because this caller was fishing. Yeah, and so I got to thinking and I go well you love drums and You like fiddling with them. I'd always my very first drum set when I was 15 was a gold sparkle Rogers drum set and I was always messing with it and I'd had a Ludwig acrylite snare drum since I was 10. So I was always fiddling around with it Anyway, I'd really really loved a Really loved tinkering with drums that being said I'm not what you would call a mechanical type person I can't build a square box Total impossibility anyway, I started I put an ad in a Little paper called the thrifty nickel and it said cash paid for used drums And it had my beeper number on it. This was the days of beepers and I Kansas City was rich with old drums just back in the 1920s and 30s. I mean, there's so many Duke Ellington came out of here and So so so bird bird was from here and and it was just it was just a hopping town when they talk about 12th Street and Vine that was where all the action was and Why we even have a line called 12th and Vine, but So I started just getting drums and fixing them up and selling them and getting drums and fixing them up and selling them and I was doing this out of my Family room downstairs in the house and in the garage and Before I knew it. I had like accumulated a double-car garage worth of stacked up drums from all eras and I drove out Probably about an hour from Kansas City and this guy had a big old double-bass pearl Inexpensive drum set with some cymbals and stuff and he wanted $600. I go man You got anything else here and he said yeah, I got this old broken-down drum in the closet he went over to his closet and pulled it out and It was the first time in the world I saw a super sensitive with the snare wires underneath the top head and underneath the bottom head of Ludwig black beauty and I said we'll throw that old drum in I'll give you 600 bucks and so I didn't have any idea what I was even looking at and I Went to a music store here in Kansas City and the guy immediately offered me six hundred dollars for it Well, 1980 somebody's offering you six hundred dollars for broken-down old drum Something's not right. You know didn't add up. Yeah, so I passed on the deal and I Started doing some research and found a found a guy by the name of John Aldridge. Oh, yeah, and John Aldridge I think is the guy who did more for the inception or the popularity of vintage drums I Started talking to him on the telephone found out a lot of stuff From him and we've kind of kind of went from there so to speak And then I had already had a lot of knowledge on shell construction and such from you know going and buying these old drums I would go I Mean I did silly stuff like went to a went to a guy's trailer that was out in the middle of nowhere and He wanted 20 saw my ad and he wanted 20 20 bucks for this drum set Well, it was a 1952 Gretch green sparkle 2213 16 with 60s Ludwig wooden snare drum on it Covered in aluminum foil, which I found out was mod orange when I got home You know just crazy stuff like he went 20 bucks because he had mowed a woman's yard and she didn't have the money to pay Wow, and now so Yeah, I mean just crazy stuff like that was happening and there was no such thing as vintage drums at that point in time Modern drummer came out and not in my world and there was there was a small cluster of people across the country That it was like it's some way. We all seem to find each other You know and and and mostly it was through John Aldridge I know I got this call from John one day and it was this guy named Rob cook and Rob called me and he said John Aldridge told me to call you because you can answer the questions that I Have about vintage drums and so I go, okay now Like I said, this is even pre cell phone. He's calling my house phone And so sitting there and I talked to him and I talked to him and I talked to him then I passed him on to to Someone else with a good degree of knowledge and I called John and John said man I can't I can't be on the phone anymore talking vintage drums dance to any new people because my wife's gonna Divorce me because I'm on the phone all the time We were I mean there we were we were all spread across the country and he had a newsletter that was a single page Typed out, you know, hey, I've got this. Hey, I've got that. Hey, I've got this I got I had the honor because I had a color printer in the office that I worked out of it at Bayer I Actually printed the very first color not so modern drummer That's so funny John John has been on the show before and has told a little bit of the other side of this from his Perspective and I think he he actually mentioned you in that episode and talked about that So it's it's funny to hear it come from you as well And he mentioned that his wife was like they were in marriage counseling because of this in the phone bill and the constant Discussion, so that's that's hysterical. Yeah, and he I mean to me. He's like the godfather of vintage drums that people don't really know about or appreciate what what he did for it for them in the day and and a Lot of it has comes out of this baby boomer generation that I'm a part of Because these were the drums from that we saw when we were kids Usually we couldn't couldn't a lot of us couldn't afford them and then Grew up and I was probably somewhere around 29 30 years old Maybe a little older than that, but you know early 30s at that point in time, so we were we were you know We had a desire then for the things of our youth that were were gone And I'd totally quit playing drums and which was something else that seems to be a reoccurring theme among My generation we went on we got our company jobs We did our thing and then all of a sudden, you know, we've been away from drums all for eight or nine years And it's like and I want to play the drums again So I'd gone out and bought a new Pearl drum set and it wasn't really You know, it wasn't the sound that I wanted. Yeah, so you so you end up you end up going through this process and Over the years Vintage drums went from this neat little club to this huge huge huge huge amount of people and the original C&C was a guy named David Carrington and Bill Cardwell and David wanted to build drums and we ended up doing a retail store because He had so many vintage drums and I had so many vintage drums and they were Overrunning houses are both of our houses. So we we just got a store front and and started selling sticks and heads and used and vintage drums out of out of the store and He wanted to start building He also Started a family about that time, but the first drum set I got to build I built out of with Keller shells I built out of my my garage I had shipped a three pallets of Drums to a gentleman called named Palo Spirallotti in Italy that Ludwig eventually did a book called the Palo Spirallotti collection and all the drums in the book except for Ian Pace's Made in Japan kit and Cozy Cozy pals red sparkle Ludwig kit all the other drums in that that book came out of Kansas City out of people's basements and garages and Whatever from over the years so Did just got to be Something that There were so many people involved there wasn't the cool little club anymore I I Don't want to say I lost interest because I've never lost interest in In old drums. It's just that I started wanting to I started messing around with a router on a router table and if an old vintage a vintage drum had an extra hole In it back in say 1990 1991 to three nobody even wanted it You couldn't give it away. Oh, it's got an extra hole. No, they all they move the realm out. No, I don't want you know None of those things were really They didn't retain their vintage value at that time because there was so much Pristine stuff out there and you could buy it for nothing so I Started messing with the shells that had been Bastard eyes so to speak to where I thought okay if I was building this drum And I wanted to get the sound out of it So I just started messing with the bearing edges on Vintage drums that I couldn't sell and retrospect I wish I'd left the darn things alone, but it's it it did give me a it did give me a lesson and how the edges were then yeah the shell constructions of all the different drums and and All of that but Paolo Paolo Spirallotti Did interviews and wrote for magazines then he had Karl Palmer of Emerson like and Palmer at His house and he was doing an interview and the I don't know I think it was like three pallets of vintage drums Showed up while they're doing the interview and all of a sudden you know they're in their tearing boxes open and Seeing what's come from the United States and Karl said I've always wanted a drum set in my sizes that Looked like Gene Krupa's kit from the 1940s but had gold hardware on it and And Paolo said call my friend Bill Cardwell. He'll make it for you and wow so I Start getting these telephone calls and this guy in a British accent that was a little bit higher pitched than me You know saying this is Karl Palmer and I'm going yeah, I'm buddy rich You want to go to Pizza Hut and have pizza, you know, it's like I thought it was one of my friends just messing with me and I did have a fax machine at home and that's the way Paolo and I communicated and Finally, I get a fax from him telling me you stupid idiot Karl Palmer's trying to call you Will you talk to him when he calls and quit hanging up phone? so The very first drum set that I got to build was and I and I use Keller shells and I made it with a Six-ply maple With six ply reinforcement rings it was white marine pearl I had a bunch of old Radio-king hardware that was because it wasn't being reproduced back in that time but I had a whole bunch of old radio-king hardware and I went and had it gold plated and And basically built Carl a double-paced drum set to his specifications and That kind of opened the door for building drums and My partner David he wanted he was really into it Well, he was also starting a family at that time too and by the time We started building drums out of the back of our store in a little room that was about 12 feet long and six feet wide He he got busy with family and he was He was an engineer and he ended up Me buying him out and he ended up moving to Dallas and he and I are still great friends to this day I love the grout of death and So we don't have any of these It was it was not a bad thing But we were just we just build a set in the back of our store and set it up on the floor but when I saw that the big boxes were all coming to town and everything I got sold stores was offered early retirement from Bayer Chemical Corporation and and And and it just seemed like everything was lining up to To start making drums now I had four artists at that time I had a grand total of four endorsers which Wasn't much made on by then. I had I had five I Forgot we get we'd picked up sparkle horse, which was a great pickup, too so we had anyway, we had we had five drummers and No potential for selling any more drums now. What year is this at this point? That by this time we're looking at 2003 oh, okay We're we're all the way up to April of 2003 and now let me ask you was Carl Palmer's set Was that technically like the first C&C drum set? It was it was I Didn't there's There's not any badges some I thought I got it You know what I got a picture of that drum set about three weeks ago It's a first. I didn't even take a picture of it when I made it. Oh, wow Didn't think anything about it and so I got a picture of it the other day And I can't remember what I did for badges on it I don't even think I did badges on it or maybe I don't know can't remember Can't remember but it was it was the first drum set I ever made so not bad so yeah, kind of It's kind of tough when you start there, isn't it? But we would I built a we would build a kit and we would put it in our store and we we took one to the Chicago show Early on I think it was the second or third Chicago vintage show We took a custom David and I took a custom built drum set and I and it I remember it had a 7 by 13 Wooden snare drum on it and all Aldridge came he kept coming over and playing that snare drum and he goes Why does this sound like a metal snare drum? And I'd say John because you all you hear in your head or metal snare drums, so it's not like a metal snare drum I didn't have any answer But so You know, it just what's the what I guess it all organically occurred. Yeah, it sounds like it is it is the only way There was now as I look back on it. I should have had better plans, but I didn't have any plans. I just This was kind of flying by the seat of my pants Sure, and we had a major drum company at that point in time excuse me in 2000 they were interested in What I was doing with building drums and So I thought we were gonna do something with them I'm not gonna get into that. Yeah, it was it didn't it didn't pan out And I was kind of forced into a situation of like gee. Well now what are you gonna do and We just kind of Made it along, you know one day to the next and I mean I would literally build a drum set My son was on tour and he was on like shore records then and had to do a European tour so we built a drum set and He took it to Europe. I said leave it over there We get any we get any more artists We're gonna need we're gonna need backline drums for you know, I'm already thinking about backline drums and don't even have orders We're gonna need it for our artist one of these days and he did They don't and that gets stayed over there for years and years and years But we reached the point where we couldn't make the shells Keller makes great shells. I don't have anything against their work at all in fact After us making shells, I have more respect for what they what they have done over the years but no one was making shells like they made them back in the 40s 50s 60s and early 70s and that was That was kind of my point of reference of what I wanted to be able to produce as far as drum shells were concerned so it was Imperative to get drum shell molds in here to to make drum shells to get those sounds and Not to make replica drums, but to make drums to the specifications of what those shell constructions were yeah and When we did make them then to And the these machines are so much better than the equipment that they had To use back back in the 1960s So, you know, it's it's not the same as an as a 1966 psychedelic red Sparkled drum set that the edges have been all beat up on and still sounds great Yeah, you know, it's built in honor. So to speak of those drums and hopefully they'll have the longevity that They're still around 50 years later and people want to play them too. Yeah And now so this is Gladstone drum shells, correct Which right which I think you were telling me before that you did sell them as drum shells at one point But then it got to be too crazy because I think we're getting there But C and C has just blown up in popularity and it sounds like that's right at about the time in that mid 2000s where we're at but and Gladstone is named after the town We're yeah, we're in the town of Gladstone, Missouri However, when I was 10 years old and my mom traded in her French horn that she had played in high school and got me a 1966 acrylite snare drum and they just came out with the uf they I think they call them UFO cases now, but that 66 acrylite and It had a practice pad on top of it It had Billy Gladstone's name on it Because he and had been at the Billy Gladstone and had invented that practice pad and so the patent a Ludwig. That's great so I would have to practice of course with With my practice pad on because no one had wanted to have to have to listen to the snare drum and Me trying to learn to play it. So there was that correlation and then My store was in Kansas City but if you drove six blocks down the same street all of a sudden you were in the small township of Gladstone and I found an industrial building and it's just pretty much an empty concrete floor and space and we built the We built a drum building facility that Placed off of how we build drums. I mean, we've just kind of winged it. We've winged everything along the way Yeah, and I mean we've never really advertised We you know, we ask our artists to keep the C's on the bass drum head That was one thing that we wanted they they I've learned to tolerate and be okay with the fact That the C's aren't always on the head. That's my My my problem because you know, they do change bass drum heads for some artists Don't want branding on their stages and all these different things So I've had to grow out of that Speak but it literally this company has grown on the back of our artists They have been responsible for what we've done over time and a lot of the ideas that have occurred have occurred because Artists now like that the player date line. We knew we wanted to do it and We didn't know exactly how we wanted to do it But we had two artists to it asked for a center lug kit, you know And and one of them was made with a maple shell I mean both of them were made with maple shells and then I got a call when we had we started We had started working with a gentleman named Joey Wanaker and Joey called me one day and said hey I I picked up this old majestic kit and it just sounds so great can you make me a set of shells like these old majestic shells and and Which were blue on shells and so we went about you know finding the right wood to make those shells and we made them they were so musical and So nice, you know coming out of modern-day machines and not being made, you know like Like they had to be made back in the 60s and yeah and early 70s when they were being made. I mean the technology Hope that I hope that shell too, and it's just you know, totally. It was just it was just great and Jake and I worked the better now Now we're all the way up to 2011 Jake and I worked just about all that year on Coming up with that player date one kid and so when we built that thing and We managed to get it out to the NAMM show and we built a few other a few other shells But I got when we got on the plane and we were flying out the net NAMM show That year I said, you know and when I think we were offering them in three colors And I said, you know if I can sell 25 of these because I'd quit going to NAMM shows because we were a custom company Yeah, we would we would we would build everything Fill up a booth. We'd sell everything in the booth. We wouldn't take any drum orders. So basically it was you know, I Don't know it wasn't It didn't I didn't need my ego stroked I was past that by that time but the The player date ended up being a drum set that we we ripped off the 60s scratch edge on the shells Which was you know, one of the things that Jake jigs IDs that hey, let's try these these full contact edges And so we did that and and he took them out and played them on a few gigs and stuff and yeah And we messed around with that. So Jake's always Jake's always been a guy who's who had the ideas and I had Ideas and we'd put them together and when they would mash and they would make sense You know, we would usually have something that was doable. So this is so cool And that's card. Well, who's your son obviously too, right? Yeah, that's great So I went out there and I think we sold like 60 something player that took orders for like 60 something player date kits But when I was when I was on the plane on the way out there. I said if I can sell 25 of these I mean I get back to Kansas City I want to try maple on the outside and maple on the inside and and leave that luon in the middle and See if I can come up with a drum shell that's going to be different in sound but still going to have that more of that vintage sound to it and Give me another line of these well when we sold the 67 we had to focus on building those and Getting those to stores and hoping they so because it's one thing to take the orders and sell one order of them You know out the door Yeah, it's another thing then to get reorders. Yeah, so As soon as we got them out the door, I said hey guys, I'd Notified store owners. We got a new drum shell. It's called a player date, too And I didn't even tell I didn't even tell the guys when I thought when I thought of the maple I didn't tell them that we got back to Kansas City So they didn't tell anybody else because I don't think maybe there was you know I don't think in 2011 and or January 2012 Anybody was doing anything with a full contact edge at that point really well No, I mean it was not I don't you know, I may be wrong, but I don't know anybody who was doing it I think everything was much sharper. The bearing edges were a lot sharper at that point Oh, yeah, they were and and which I like too because it gives you a real Wide range too, but anyway, but I I no more got back and some another little drum company had had a already had a video on on one from the store in In The UK where this guy says me and so and so put our heads together and we came up with this great new edge and it was like He just that ain't a new edge That's the 60s crutch edge and you just saw it in my booth at the NAMM show two weeks ago So I just quit to go into NAMM show that in was like yeah, I'm not going I'm not going out there I'll just people can just find out what we're doing when we're doing it. Yeah, that's a common theme nowadays Yeah, so I just don't you know you just so I gave up on that but anyway, we've We do things that we do because I like those shells that he was that Joey was talking about and Joey has a phenomenal ear and I've had artists along the way who we've listened to and If you listen to these guys and the sounds they want and are able to reproduce the sounds that they want then Then it's then it's a value. Yeah, then it's worthwhile. Yeah, it's I'm a big fan of the old Mij the stencil kits as well like the majestic they I just think for the value you get, you know You can get a nice cool vintage drum set with amazing finishes and and they sound Great and the snares especially are amazing. So it's cool to know that that's kind of a part of your history as well a little bit Right well in everything back then was I mean through the 90s we were educated on More resonance more resonance more resonance more resonance and everybody was trying to build a drum that would just Resonate all over the place and go in thinner and thinner and thinner and thinner on the shells It ended up that there was a great number of people who wanted drums that didn't ring on forever I love a big full sound. Yeah But you know My son just to soon throw a tea towel over a floor Tom and play it as is not Exactly and everyone's using moon gel now and it has been for a long time But you get the drums that resonate forever, but then you Dampen them to get like that nice kind of studio, you know studio ring sound and so kind of redundant Yeah, it's like the the second drum set that we built for Ringo. We built Ringo a drum set and then he he didn't He wasn't he wasn't big on Drum construction, I mean, you know wasn't aware on drum construction, but why would he need to be you know? Yeah, he could play it. He could take a brand-new pair of Zildjian hi hats and make them sound just like when he's sitting there playing, you know in the 60 I'm saying inside of the stage. He's doing soundcheck. He's sitting there and I'm going How does he get the same sound he got out of those old? K symbols does he get out of that these brand-new I had yeah getting the same. It's him Yeah, it's him, but his drum tech is Jeff Jonas is Very and very knowledgeable about drum shell construction. It's extremely knowledge We built him a drum set and and he liked it. He liked the drums, but he liked the set that was built but he Got the impression from Jeff that I could make a drum set sound like whatever he wanted it to because Jeff taught him about Bearing edges and why his drums had sounded the way it did was another on drummer on tour Who had flown down? the front of house man from the guy that she had played with at the show that I went to in Chicago to find out why Ringo's drums sounded better than the drums that She was playing at that time and of course I told I told him because you're playing them and which he said That's right, but he was right man, you know, I just had Gary Astridge on the show I actually did the interview with him. Oh Man, I haven't seen Gary in 20 years out there. That's funny. I talked to him on Friday two days ago This is Sunday today and he talked about that about how Ringo Just anyone else could play it and then Ringo picks it up and it sounds like Ringo like it sounds There's there's no denying that. Yeah. Yeah, it's and and and that's what it was But he decided he wanted a drum set that sounded like When you played the let it be album Now you didn't want it sound like the drums on the that when he Live hit the drums on the let it be album He wanted a drum set that sounded like when you played the record He wanted the drums to sound like the record Gotcha. Yeah, and so which you know, it's like who's stereo we play in this on my stereo You're scary exactly. They're probably not the same a lot of variables. Yeah a lot of variables. So But we you know and it ended up is like hey, did you use that natural maple kit that Used on the rooftop and video. Yeah. Yeah, I go look at the rooftop. He's got a towel over the floor Tom, you know so What what the edges I ended up cutting on that? Maple poplar maple kit ended up being what we Edges we use now in our 12th and bond kit. Hmm. So He he helped me out with those edges Wow, because that's that's the that's how I cut it And so I figured my hex is good enough for him. I'll be good enough for the rest of these guys too So yeah, really and I mean it's not like like I said before you were getting to the point where I mean You must be just thrilled that C&C has become one of the most popular, you know, kind of Boutique drum brands in the world. I mean you guys have just a very Like there's no other brand really like it. I mean you're it they feel vintage, but they're just The quality is just beyond apparent when you see them and when you play them So, I mean things just skyrocketed for you guys. Yeah, I mean how do you get the how do you know? You don't know. Yeah, I mean you you you just have no idea and and and I mean, but they're like I said it It's it comes all from the comes from the artist. I mean the artist or the guys that have I Haven't made C&C what it what it is as far as drums are concerned the artist have and and You know my maybe my desire to facilitate what they're asking for but A lot of these guys have just had the idea, you know And and we've got to do some cool cool things, you know that I never thought I'd get to do I mean I look I grew up in rural Arkansas On a gravel road and worked in a cotton field when I was a kid. That's my life, you know So the life that I came out of So it was like What's the chances of a guy? In Arkansas Who was seven years old when the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan ever getting to build one drum set for Ringo much less too? You know, yeah, that doesn't happen. So It's just there's been a lot of good dumb luck is all I can say Yeah, you've you've made it and and as we get close to the end here Why don't you tell people is there anything kind of cool you guys are working on? Now, I mean, it's it's 2020 right now Anything cool in the work. So you guys kind of just business as usual We're working on some metal shells that are unique and different that have a lot to do with copper and I love the sound of copper and the effect that it has so I've built several of those I think Memphis drug shop has some and a few other stores have some of those snare drums and Both the guys and modest mouse have them and and and I sent one to New York for Joey Wannaker to use on a Giggy had to do in New York with Paul Simon or something. I can't anyway And he said can I keep this and I'm like yeah keep it, you know why not wow so So we're those are something that we're playing with a lot right now. I think we're gonna Take the player day on a little bit Expanded and Offer some new things with it We just kind of like we still fly by the seat of our pants. Yeah It's just the way it's just the way things seem to go well, it's working You've come a long way from the you know The fields of Arkansas to be to be doing this now and brushing with the the greatest drummers in the world That's just really cool. It's kind of an inspirational story and it sounds like Passion is kind of at the heart of all of it of just And I like how you said to we're like you were out of it I mean you had a full-time Regular job you were out of it for a little bit and then you you came back and and look at you now So, you know, everyone gets that where they get, you know a little burnt out on practicing or life takes over and Oh, yeah, I was poor. I was 47 years old When CNC custom drums became an entity into itself Wow, so I didn't you know I thought at that point in time there weren't very many custom drum builders. I By golly, I think within a year after I opened up C&C custom drum. There's Many drum builders is there were convenience stores every everybody who Couldn't get a job ended up being a custom drum builder. I think yeah, so there's you know, so it's like I Don't know that there's a lot out there and there's a lot and there's people out there doing great work So I think we live in a special time of of drum building and and again Our community is really strong and and I think everyone has a lot of respect for what you're doing Just because you guys keep your head down and do your work and and produce great drums So I think now is a great time to tell people that they can check out CNC drums at C and C drums USA comm so that's C And see drums USA comm and I really want to give a quick shout out to Jonathan Webster who is the gentleman who reached out to me and requested this episode. Oh, yeah from Canada Yeah, so that's that's pretty cool Why are Canadian such cool people? I just are we They they just they're just I've we've had so many great Canadians that Play our drums that Sweethearts. Yeah, great people the neighbors to the north. So Thanks, Jonathan and and to anyone else out there who wants to to reach out and request some episodes That's always welcome. So Bill and let's give a let's give a shout out to your son Jake as well for helping you kind of get He was pivotal in us getting connected and helped you with a setup with a computer and all that so thank you to Jake as well Great. Thank you. Yeah, this has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and keep up the good work And we'll be in touch down the road. All right, great. Thanks, Bill. Take care If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwynn sound podcast