 Good morning. Thank you all for coming here and for having us here. Okay, now Ryan Patrick, okay. It's in the order that you're actually seated. That's very clever. It was there Okay, Ryan Callow is an assistant professor at law at the University of Washington He researches the intersection of law and emerging technology with the emphasis on robotics and the internet and his work has appeared in the New York Times the Wall Street Journal and NPR Patrick Varone. He's a drone or Varone. It's brown brown. Okay is a television writer Attorney former president of the writer skilled of America West He is a writer and producer of Futurama and has written for the tonight show Starring Johnny Carson the Simpsons and Muppets tonight Dan Kaufman is the director of information innovation of the information innovation office at DARPA He is responsible for identifying and creating promising new information technologies for the Department of Defense So it's we had a certain amount of correspondence beforehand So I know some of what you want to talk about, but I guess what I'm going to pose to you first We're given a particularly Visual topic which is the delivery drones and robot babysitters and I want you to pause for a moment and Think about yourself at your home and what this would look like at your house and I have Thought this through myself I live in Westport, New York in the middle of nowhere in the Adirondack Park about 300 feet from Lake Champlain and In thinking about Delivery drones and robot babysitters in terms of the robot babysitter. I realized that I already have those they're called iPhones My children are not are not so small that they're running to the street and get run over, but rather it's a mommy What he that that can be then replicated over four or five miles or ten miles So they just FaceTime me whenever they want something now what the delivery drone would look like in my house Is two things first of all I live about a mile from Vermont But there is this lake in the way and so anything I need to get from Vermont involves either driving all the way around to The crown point bridge or taking driving up to Essex and taking a ferry across I really wish the delivery drone would just send me things from Vermont And the other thing is that I live above a wetland and there are things like herons and bald eagles and and there's a beaver lodge down there and My my Immediate use if I had a delivery drone other than getting things from Vermont would be to set to take my camera down there and get a Picture of the bald eagle their heron because they get away when you try to approach So What would you gosh, okay? I can't use my laptop anyway Patrick So I Live in us like Neil I guess I live in Seattle and I live really close to Amazon's headquarters, and I was just I Talked to them from time to time. I remember when Amazon announced the Bezos announced on How far was he it was 60 minutes about the fact that they were gonna do delivery by drone And it happened to be that it was like right before Cyber Monday and everyone was just sort of like oh This is just a big, you know publicity stunt This is never really gonna actually actually happen And I suppose I was sort of ambivalent on that point I wasn't quite sure and then over time like these this indicia started to crop up more and more that actually was like a real real thing For instance one of our students at the University of Washington Kind of came out of the woodwork, and it turns out that that she's she's the corporate counsel for Amazon Air Prime Which is their their product to deliver Other times I would talk to people and they just say that their colleague They used to work on autonomous vehicles that somewhere like Toyota all of a sudden had moved over to Amazon and so forth and so forth So you know I think we're gonna be ground zero or I hope they were gonna be ground zero In Seattle and just as in the same way as we got Amazon fresh before any of you guys Maybe we'll actually have Drones to liver You know that said for how wired a city that Seattle is I mean our zoo URL is zoo.org Just to give you a sense of that We're actually not very well situated for drone delivery We're really you know we have all kinds of hills and different kinds of we have terrible weather conditions Well, we like it but so forth. So, um, you know, I think the first time that I see a drone deliver something in Amazon I'm gonna feel a sense of sort of immense Not it's not pride because it's not my project But wonder because of the many technical and legal hurdles that'll have to be overcome So for me the idea of an Amazon drone delivering something, you know, isn't just a matter of of convenience It's it's very serious people working with technologists bringing all kinds of different expertise together in the same place Talking through difficult policy issues with the Federal Aviation Administration with the city You know the first time a drone gets delivered somewhere in Seattle. I'm gonna feel pretty great about it So I suppose that's that's consonant with the theme for for today But that I mean I really for me rather than invoking a sense of fear Or guilt or anything like that I get a sense of wonder out of that Yeah, that's very much an airplane town. I grew up there. So it's like Boeing except little Yeah, but it's gonna be so different I mean the kinds of hurdles that you have to come over and Incidentally, I think my role here and so I'll say this very briefly I think my role here is to really talk about the fact that this is also a story about law and policy Right, I mean you can be as imaginative as possible There is always going to be a role for the law in a society like ours a complex a study like ours In order to foster technology sometimes in order to hinder it and I've been very critical of the Federal Aviation Administration because I believe it's not being very transparent about who is able to use drones for commercial purposes And it's also being too reticent if you see the interim report that the Federal Aviation Administration Published around whether like how drones are going to be used in the United States for instance for delivery They they don't contemplate the use of autonomous flight But it wouldn't make sense as a business model for Amazon to have an individual You know flying every single drone to your house So the way they just throw that person on a bike and deliver it and just as quickly right and so it's got to have a Level of autonomy which means it has to have sense and avoid capabilities and all kinds of other things I've heard some encouraging things recently But I think that you know the question of Imagination capital and so forth of course is extraordinarily important, but we also have to have to have the infrastructure I'm glad you defined your purpose here because I'm hoping that someone will define my purpose as it as a television writer and and and a producer of Futurama for for most of its its run We we spent a lot of time thinking about the kind of things that you know are theoretical in in In practice, but you know actually supposed to be inspirational according to Neil I was hoping you were gonna keep that because at some point if you had actually gotten the stream of the I want to see does that does that create feedback? What happens if we're watching the stream of our Broadcast I'm travel. I think is what happens. Yeah, wow that would be cool and so so my take in thinking as much as I could about about robot babysitters and and drone delivery was you know For the past 12 years, I've been trying to make them funny and trying to make them satirical And that's not exactly what you necessarily want to hear. However The observation I would make is and I don't know who said this, but it's So I'll attribute it to myself that that the future the future is already here It's just not evenly distributed and this We know why you're here And it goes to Catherine's point about about and I have grown or growing children too and so My need for a robot babysitter is basically, you know a low jack in their iPhone so that I know Where they are and and can can globally track them And and we have that right? I mean that's already here. I can control with with My iPhone that the temperature in my house thanks to to nest I mean the the thermostat is actually to me one of the great sort of Robots in our lives that we completely ignore Or at least not completely but ignore enough that that we don't think of it as a robot But the the and so it's all like the it's all like the frog in the boiling pot of water that that The future is there heating it up for us and we're just not noticing Until one day we're all skyping one another and this happened to me the other day my my son started college We were gonna call him on the phone the way I did 35 years ago with my parents and instead his sister in here Skyping and I said hey look. It's the future. We've got we've got We've got video phones and and who knew and then the same thing I think with with Delivery drones may be a little bit more complicated for it to sneak up on us, although I would submit information is already being delivered at at at a pace and at a at a rate that we didn't anticipate before and if 3d printers Move in the in the futuristic direction that I think we all hope they do at least those of us who own stock in Those companies You know you you can the idea of the Star Trek idea of beaming things You know, it's gonna be like it's gonna be like like we had wires We had wires for our for our communication now. It's all wireless We're gonna be talking about delivery drones and then all of a sudden we're gonna be able to beam things around and it's not gonna be You're not gonna need that delivery drone You're gonna be you're gonna move we're gonna jump one step ahead of it And we're gonna be using 3d printers to you know The cake that you want delivered is going to be printed in your kitchen. That's what I hope Yeah, so I I watched I was watching at 60 minutes when It's really curious and I will just share freely these are not DARPA positions But this is what I thought on my couch the first thing I thought was I Need to get see this when it's in the south and I'm gonna get a friend and we are going to film a game show called shooting for prizes Got me a new fridge and I thought that just sounded genius And I wanted to go there and and and maybe you could write that for us because I think it will make a lot of money That was that was my number one thought and the second thought was and it's odd So you have to understand my background I spent most of my life making rich people richer, right? So I work for Microsoft that worked for DreamWorks I you know I had my own company took it public and now I'm in public service and it's changed my perspective a little bit And as I was saying they're watching it. I thought wow, these are really people solving first world problems Right not not to mock but oh my god. I have to drive all the way around the lake a mile To get my package and I thought maybe we could aspire to a little more and So what I kept thinking was maybe these are building blocks to do something really interesting to make the world a better place And and you know we talked about you know does that you know Can that somehow help me with food or can that help to me getting medicines in another place? And and I just found that much more uplifting and I think there's a nice commonality between it I think the problems that you have to solve for in the city will actually drive that so I you know I'm a fan of commercial development But you know the the fun thing at DARPA is we that's sort of what we do We try to imagine a future that five or ten years out What would be the truly amazing thing to solve and then as a byproduct you get it I've always been a huge fan of NASA. I like that we go to the moon and then I like space food sticks Okay, I'm glad we got Velcro, but I'm sort of glad that wasn't the goal. And so at least from my perspective. I Mean as tasty as those are You know so I that was that was my reaction to that stuff is it's cool, but I actually think it's limiting I'd like to go a whole lot further I want to take you up on your idea of legal frameworks and start with a robot babysitter I'm older than I look I'm 52 and when I was a child there was this thing that mothers could do which is to say go out and play come back when it's dark You do that now with children under a certain age and you get arrested And so that there's ways in which you know the robot babysitter is actually addressing a problem that has been socially created over the last you know 50 years Which is to say the criminalization of motherhood that what the robot babysitter in large part I mean that's an infant. I'm not gonna leave the robot somebody who can run around and put their hand on the stove I'm not gonna leave with a robot. It's the children who are perfectly competent that in 1963 or 65 could have been trusted to come back at dark where now you leave them for 10 minutes on the street corner and you will get arrested so it's it's Allowing at the robot babysitters function would really be to allow mothers to navigate the legal framework In which they are under scrutiny to make sure no Random stranger anywhere might abduct them you are much more likely to have your child hauled into the police station and Handed to an officer because you left them unattended for for 10 minutes Then you are to have them abducted by a stranger You have a much more little or a much more officious police force in upstate New York than we do and we'll say You know how we parents rule cops are rule cops But it's also true. It was true in Westchester, too. I mean the real the real problem. I mean The one year more and you know people talk about being afraid of strange strange your abduction, but The real enemy is like other mothers, you know It's like well, I'm a much better than mother than that one. She let her kid go down the street to the playground So that mean there's a there's a legal flint framework with which we can give a technological fix to so what is that? Technological fix to look like and and why don't we just say well actually the kids not gonna die. We don't need a robot So I have two reactions to that so one of which is I help organize a Annual conference that that actually Patrick has spoken at in the past Around law and policy of robotics the call for papers just actually got announced yesterday and it's gonna be in Seattle and last year there was a Law professor named Anne Bartow who raised a sort of similar question about this and one of her points was you know Often technology is billed as something that is going to You know make our lives easier or make it easier, you know make it easier to do some a particular thing So, you know her frame was that women in the 50s and and the idea They would be all this stuff in your house like dishwashers and so forth that would make it That would you know make it so that you could pursue a career Or you could have a lot of free time what happened to me that was the sort of way This was billed but in actuality as technology gets better And and does different things for us Expectations arise at the same time what's her point so the idea is that you know Whereas once you would only wash your clothes, you know once or twice a week now you have a washer dryer You're gonna do it every day and it used to be that you should get the food off of the dishes But now that you have a washing machine together. They got a really shine right you got to get to special stuff so I mean I think there's a complicated relationship with What the sort of state of the art of the technology and science is and what human expectations are What's interesting about what you're saying is that? You know sort of the reverse is true, too. Like that is to say there's also a story where societal expectations for some reason go in a particular direction Constant supervision of children and then the technology arises to meet to meet that need And so that that's the first reaction. The second reaction very quickly is you know if And I'll say this in different ways Maybe a couple more times throughout the panel, but you know a lot of what we do as Like law professors and others jurors looking at at technology is we ask ourselves when when there's a new technology what? Human experiences new human experiences is to create or cut off And then once we know what the new experiences of humans are that all of a sudden are possible because of delivery drones Or babysitters or whatever happens to be Then we can begin to ask what assumptions does the law hold that are no longer valid? And we see that time and time again with transformative technologies and and you know Obviously for obvious reasons the role of imagination is incredibly crucial to that process I don't have much to add to that other than I as as Ryan said I went to one of those robots and the law Conferences and and the interesting thing that I took away from it was that as imaginative and innovative as the sciences so too does the law and legislators have to have to become in order to properly Govern and legislate those issues good luck with that In terms of have energy as difficult as it is to to influence people who think living creatively It is that much more. I think difficult to try to convince Lawyers and and legislators to be attentive to you know, the the the sort of imaginative elements of what might be Because it ends up inevitably going down the path of what we have to you know We have to make a law that that that outlaws 3d printers because somebody can make a gun with a 3d printer And and that's I think a you know the the hard cases make bad law who said that that's another one of those This is If I were an ice cream Yes, we can play this game all day. It's fun. Good. Well, then then why don't you continue? Yeah, you know, it's funny I actually think I spent a lot of time on that because right DARPA DARPA We're often trying to not only think about the future, but we're building we're actively building the future And we're constantly running into policy Because we're inventing things that you didn't know that it exists So what's the policy for it? It's like I I don't even know that I can make it yet But we need to go hand-in-hand and I think one of the biggest services that we do and I think one of the biggest mistakes Technologists do is you know, we like to make things sound much harder than they are. That's how we sound very smart And so we hide a lot of things behind techno speak and it's good. It's good for you know It's job. It's you know, it's job security for me forever But I think probably my biggest job I spent most of the time in the government is trying to take things without dumbing them down And where I've seen law and policy go horribly wrong is because they get frustrated Talking to a technologist and they think you know what we I understand enough of this and then they pass laws And you get like tremendously bad laws that inhibit things and it rather than viewing them as Antagonistic I actually view them as our partners And I spent a lot of time trying to sit down with policy people and saying look a little math will not kill you We but we actually need to come to a common understanding of what it is And then I've noticed the whole thing get gets much better Otherwise what I tend to see is sort of a hype cycle on one side or the other either everything's all bad or it's all good And there's this sense of a panic and I think really my job for the you know I don't people know a DARPA. You only come for four years and you leave so I think my biggest Public service is trying to actually grind grind things down and cement them into what is actually true This is a real fear. This is not a real fear. These are things technology can do for you These are things that can't do for you, you know, let's not legislate morality. Let's not just do all that stuff But we can actually be partners. So yeah, and also I just we my kids played so you need to move to California Our cops have other things on their minds. Maybe you need more gangs. I don't know that can help This quick addendum to that is that I'm finding that what you're saying to be absolutely, absolutely right Which is to say that You know the the what one of the big lessons of having gone through internet and the internet law You know what we learned from essentially so-called cyber law the law of the internet Was that you really have to hold you really have to hold hand with technologists and and there's a kind of Hold hands with technology. Yeah, I mean so You know at our at our conference, for instance Half the program committee has technical training. They're people with electrical engineering computer science and so forth You know, yeah, it's great. I don't you may know you may know some of them and then also only 20 of us in the world So it's you guys all know exactly you guys are at that that robot retreat But but I mean, you know, that's that's crucial and and it's hard I do a lot of interdisciplinary research at the University of Washington and I run a lab with a computer scientist And and some a designer from the iSchool and it is very difficult to sit there and try to talk through issues with folks with Different disciplines. We can't when we would co-author a paper We can't decide who's gonna go first second third or whatever because there's different norms within computer science and law and so forth Right, and so it's really hard work, but it's absolutely crucial. I just wanted to add to that Well one of the other things that occurs to me about the technologies that we're talking about is if they're actually Developed would they really be used for what we initially think they're gonna be used for and you raised that to some extent Which is if we divide if we develop a technology that can be a robot babysitter Is it really gonna be used on kids or would it be used on adults? Would it be used on employees where it's a lot if in fact children are Reasonably likely not to die if you don't supervise them, but you can make a lot of money supervising employees Would it really be would children really be the target unit? There was a moment in Futurama. I remember with where we And we had they had repurposed killbots as robot baby And the the the image we had was and it was just a throwaway joke was just this sort of Transformer-looking robot that Was holding an infant and said I have replaced your mother And then the mouth opened like the alien from aliens and a baby bottle came out You know, I guess I would answer it in two different ways So the first part of the question and the second part is really different So the first thing is I don't think technology has ever used the way that we Think about it. That's the wonder of human creativity and stuff. I mean my office, you know, we invented Siri That was not the plan, right? I'm sort of pleased how it came out. We actually built it for the military to do scheduling But it turns out we like to talk to our computer and have it tell us wrong things a lot And and you're welcome so You know, so I think that's one of the wonderful things about technology is that it goes off and Goes and people take it in interesting exciting ways The the second part the part that I don't that I always object to though is somehow we always go from that Just because it doesn't go as intended immediately goes dark, right? Well, then it will be used to kill people Wow, there's a whole spectrum Between you know, maybe maybe it's taking care of old people in nice ways It doesn't have to immediately jump to and it's fine. It's on employees. Now. I don't deny Those things can of course you don't Yes, exactly. I wait. Hold on. I have a message But you know again, I guess I tend to be an optimist and I have tremendous faith in people and in societies and I think I think fear brings no right and I think that's what happens in limited It's fear and that if we do our jobs and we educate people and we empower people, right? And you get more so that technology is not a thing that should be happening to you Technology should be participatory. It's something that you should come along and play with so just a small example One of the things that I were launching in my office is I want to get rid of programming completely right because Your lives are touched in every aspect of your life touches computers and software in some way Literally every aspect of your life. There's nothing you do today I mean, whether that's driving a car or it's getting on phone or whatever it is And that can be scary because you didn't program it and you don't know it But it's less scary for me. I have a reasonable understanding of what's going on So what if I could make that power to all of you, right? And while I would recommend going to college for six years. It's the most fun I've ever had in my life and learn computer programming. I probably can't convince all of you of this So instead what if you could just talk to a computer and just tell it what you want We can articulate in a high level and then have it write its own code And then have it be able to talk back to you and those are the type of things and I think that will change our society in a Big way so it's not this small group of technologically elite that build things for our own purposes And then you use them and some of them you like and some of them you don't and some of you trust And some you don't but what if you add the power to do that yourself? What if you didn't just have a robot babysitter? But you could program your robot babysitter and it could reflect your ideas in your mores I think it would radically change the way you think About computers now you might not like the way I program mine right and so we'll still be back to the human thing But at least it'll be yours. Yeah, actually one example of something going in that direction is Wolfram language Where Wolfram research is taking things that would have taken a lot of code and making them much simpler and much more like natural language in terms of how drones were used in our book one use was Combating poaching of endangered species so there were drones flying around behind herds of elephants to catch poachers and Then Lee Constantinu who I think is probably here somewhere. Yes. There you are had a drones being a way of Having a an internet that's not controlled by the government So there's two we had two particular, you know, non-lethal Implementations and I'm getting a sign that says it's time for question and answer So I do have any final comments before we go to Q&A. I like questions. Yeah questions back there Nobody asked why we killed the dog. That's the only Didn't see that show It just strikes me that a ground-based autonomous vehicle Seems more practical than any sort of drone for capacity battery range amount of computing you put into it blah blah blah And my kids like to Skype from school too. Thanks. Yeah, I mean so it was interesting we had a project around the Legal aspects of autonomous driving and we it was a collaboration This was when I was at Stanford and it was a collaboration between the law school and the school of engineering The Center for Automotive Research at Stanford So we thought it was an interesting issue what kind of things with this present and I was sort of hearing from industry was going in That direction and so we hired this fellow who was a civil engineer and Turn law student and so forth and we started to work on this and then all of a sudden it was revealed I think by John Markoff in the New York Times that Google had this fleet of autonomous vehicles And then the next thing we knew the state of Nevada had written these laws That were about about autonomous driving and paving the way to autonomous driving One thing to note about those laws was they were really written in consultation with Google And you can see that in part from the definition of artificial intelligence that they used which which an initial Law as it was as it was passed the definition was anytime that the car Substitutes for the human right that was how it was characterized and and so the eyes you might imagine There are lots of times when a car substitutes for humans for instance anytime you have anti-lock brakes You know you basically are just when you hit the brakes You're suggesting to the vehicle that it slowed down and it says I don't know okay. Yeah We'll slow down right and that's that's a lot of sort of autonomy already there And so the the companies came in and said look we we have all these autonomous features already or semi-autonomous features And then Nevada had to end up Exing out that law and then rewriting a law that was a better definition So if you look at the original original laws probably the point of the matter is is that? You know you one really important issue here that we haven't talked about is having the right stakeholders at the table Having a full variety of the people implementing this technology with all kinds of different visions of the table because that's how you Legislate for society does that make sense? And so I just just goes to the remarks about sort of unintended consequences and also brings an autonomous drive I actually have a question about that law which is did they figure out how? Autonomous cars can be pulled over No, so the so so far with that with the law and then the rules that the DMV made are about Adequacy of safety so how much you have to test these things and how many miles you have to do with them and so forth But a question that always comes up is and this could be fatal to autonomous driving is you know Am I gonna be going along in my car and all of a sudden instead of getting the lights coming on and me getting pulled Over by my own volition is an officer going to be able to pull that car over Automatically and and that it to me is analogous to the question of whether People are going to shoot Amazon or what other other kind of delivery drones out of the sky Which by the way literally happened the other day in New Jersey just so you know there was a big story about it Like if somebody shot down a drone over their house and and but yeah So the point is is that and another thing to notice I think is that there are a lot of commonalities between these different technologies even though the government treats them very differently The government doesn't necessarily think about the connections between autonomous driving over here and drones But they're enormous overlap and that's that's something we need to improve upon There's an answer to this which to your question, which will of course provoke the natural Response which is autonomous police cars I Never be any problem with that. Okay, so you're gonna bring the mic to somebody right? Oh, okay The guy over here in the I'm gonna make your life difficult. We're gonna pass it all the way down Tell me what you think of the FAA regulation of drones and in particular. We seem to have this pattern and technological Innovations where you banned something so it's illegal in vast majority of kids But it's widely not followed the law and maybe that's good politics because if you Legalize drones something bad happens. You don't really understand you can get blamed But this way you can sort of have it both ways you can make it illegal, but still it's widespread It's not unenforcably loads of laws like that. Is that a good way to do technology policy for innovative technologies? You know just keep it illegal, but then wink when it's actually implemented You don't really want to go after movie companies and photographers and whatnot that are using it I mean, I don't know if you guys don't respond. I mean my brief response to that is no It's not a good way to do things and so for a couple different things first of all in our in our society We live in a society of negative liberties, right? If I want to know whether I can drive my car on Sunday while wearing a hat I can do that unless there's a law that says I can't and Unfortunately with the Federal Aviation Administration We have a different starting point which is that that they assert jurisdiction over the airways Incidentally, they have asserted jurisdiction not over aircraft, but they've come to define Aircraft as including these little quadricopters right some of which you could buy at a store for $300 and that that strikes me as an overreach Number two. Yeah, people do all kinds of crazy stuff You know Raphael Perker, you know to film some stuff and then he goes up against I mean, but the point that matters is that a lot of big businesses like Amazon and Neil Stevenson I just said this a lot of innovation comes from firms comes from large organizations. They're not gonna do that They're not gonna transgress in that way. I don't think they're gonna end up going to Spain and Australia and Canada all other places They've gone to do this stuff first. So no, I don't I don't think it's a good way to do it I think that it's a way that we sort of get stuff done anyway But ideally we would we would you know, we would be more permissive. That's that's my own I'll say this is like it's a classic case where sort of technology has failed to inform the law Right, so you need to move things to a higher level, right before we run around to face laws and drones It's like take the first step Drones seem like a good idea in some cases. Yeah, okay, that right. That's not too hard to agree on. Okay So why are we worried about drones, right? So well the number one answer you hear from pilots is well I don't know what they're gonna do. They're crazy out there Flying and then one smacks into me, right? I don't know and I always find that conversation just fascinating because I'm like Because you know what the pilots gonna do Have we not read the news and so then you start to think oh, okay So what is it that bothers me about the drug? Well, the difference is I have a mental model of what another pilot will do And so I sort of think oh things go wrong I can talk to him and he'll do something useful and and we'll be safe And I would tell you too interesting things happen. The first is Logically in many cases the drone is far safer because the drone will always do exactly what it's supposed to do We however we may not be able to predict what that is, but it's gonna go through a stack order of things Whereas the pilot I don't know if he's had a bad day or he broke up with his wife or he's been drinking You know, I don't know the drone doesn't have a bad day. So that's the good news the bad news Scares me so what if instead we turn this into what I call transformative or explainable AI What imagine if my happy little drone so I watched you at Futurama But imagine my little happy drone is flying through the air and it was singing a song and it was saying something like you know I'm a happy little drone. I'm cruising at 30,000 feet if something bad happens I'm gonna go down and left and if I can't do that and I get really scared I'm gonna go down and right I would argue that if you're a pilot and you could hear that if things go You will feel really good because you're like I know exactly what this thing is going to do And if something was horribly wrong like you looked at it and you said oh little drone you are not at 30,000 feet You would know that is a dangerous thing and you would avoid it and so we could base our law so again I think technology has a big role in making that instead what we do is we enact things on Both bad technology and fantasies of what we think it does instead of sitting down and saying okay Well, let's live in this world. Let's imagine the world that it is Imagine the world that is and let's build our technology to a place and get everybody comfortable with it and accept that there are risks And the last piece I'll put is we do this crazy thing in technology where we hold it to this level of perfection that we don't hold people Right, so I want to have you know cars driver, you know, it better never have an accident Really go on a freaking road. Okay, you know they don't drink and drive It's not that therefore we should go do it But we should have a much more reasonable expectation for okay, you know, if it's better than what humans do that That's a pretty good level right there. So end of rant, but you know Give technology a chance. That's all we're saying Yes I'd like to start off by saying Patrick there was discussion of iPhones and I love the way Futurama took care of iPhones Yes, it was interesting how we wrote that in nine No in 2009 when the iPhone 3 came out and the zombie like response of new buyers who already owned every other Generation of it and then the show re-ran a couple of days ago in light of iPhone 6 and hey the same thing happened I'd like to suggest that the intersect of drones and baby robot or babysitters robotic babysitters might be eyes in the sky flying eyeballs Talking about looking Catherine about looking at bald eagles from cameras. I'm gonna rest in your comments about surveillance from Yeah, I'm one so I mean I testified before the Senate a year or so ago about the domestic use of drones and law enforcement And you know, I think by now the arguments are pretty familiar but the idea is that it drives the cost of surveillance down to a worrisome low level and And but at the same time and I wrote this paper in a few years ago in It was it was probably around 2009 when I got But it was like what basically it was about how drones would have anything be a catalyst for Conversations about surveillance about through technology and the reason is is because we have these visceral reactions To drone technology that we don't have to other surveillance structures. It's you know, even with the internet It's like, you know, how is it how is it following you? It's like you can't really feel it You know some information is being combined somewhere you don't really have a mental model of it Where's with the drone? It's easy to it's easy to form And so in fact that that has been a little bit of the case where where we really had a much more of a robust conversation around drones As a surveillance technology, even though they don't necessarily differ in too many ways I think we have to mandate that the drones wear fedoras and overcoats and duck behind having that corners When you see them coming Question over here. I'm Bart Gilman. I I thought Dan I Love what you said about technology working for you and empowering you It also struck me as the most science-fictional element of this conversation Your power device and I'm holding one that is Spying on me as we speak so you have all this amazing technology that does do things for you write maps and Mobile phones and you could buy a book the second you think of it It's delivered to your device and all those other things and each one of those is Gathering data about you and monetizing you and I wonder whether you have any examples in mind of things that have already come to us Or might come to us with a Money-making model that isn't that Isn't what that doesn't trade the convenience or the new the new capability for The data gathering about you so that you can be sold well right so I what I would tell you is I I don't think that's a technology choice I would say that's a people choice, right? We're all cheap as hell Well, so but in a sense we do right so if you think about this right and we've made it collectively a society You're right, you know you individually, you know, we're one of but We get really pissed off when you have to pay for something God forbid you're on like You know you go on the internet and you want to read an article and it's not free screw the New York Times man Should be free and then and then we realize that you know, we're these are people's intellectual properties Wait, I want to hear that movie. I want to hear that song. I don't want to pay for any of this Well, that's not how the world works, right? So you're gonna pay one way or the other and what we have maybe not well thought through but what we've elected to do as The group is to give people information to market to us better In exchange for the services and I think but I don't think there's anything inherent within the technology If everybody decided at that point, you know, I'm gonna keep all my information in private And I'm willing to pay, you know ten bucks a month to YouTube or whatever. I mean there are other models I don't think it's driven by technology. I think it's frankly driven by Our our devaluate our devaluing of our own privacy We don't right. We talk a lot about it, but there's study after study There was just one the other day where somebody they were offering for a cookie for a cookie Would you give me your driver's license number your social security number? I just read this and your name and I go, yeah sign me up And then we turn to the technologist and go you bastard And so I just think it's I think it's a misshapen question You know we as a group need to start to value if we we need to actually walk the walk So if we value privacy, we need to take some steps and do that and if we don't then we need to quit bitching about it Yeah, I also think that's that's another frog in the in the boiling pot sort of situation my children When I when I tell them I have the location Things turned off. I don't even know what the term for it is on my phone They say why what do you care and I have to try to explain to them They who are constantly they're on Facebook or Twitter telling everybody everything about themselves at all times I feel a little more Proprietary about those things and so thank you for laughing at my Here's a tough question that I always wonder paranoia, and I don't know the answer right It's a generational thing so the question is yes Are we the people sitting around with you know with wanting women in frocks and things all up there and go Oh my god, you're showing ankle mad am Right so are we that generation looking at the younger generation protecting this sense of privacy and propriety that maybe we care About and maybe they don't deeply don't and I'm torn on this I don't know the answer and maybe they just don't give a shit And we're worrying about stuff that they just don't care about or Are we do we need to be protective and and and guard them and say yeah Well, you haven't thought this enough steps ahead and we have a few more years on the planet think you know Maybe not such a great idea, but I don't know I worry It feels really arrogant to me to sort of dismisses this higher generation of people has made a decision But let me just give some quick context for Barton. Yeah, just very very quickly. Sorry Note the following Companies simultaneously have so much more information than you do about you right They have unbelievably granular information about you plus they can control every aspect of the interaction It's not like you you know, it's not like Apple comes to Website that you design from scratch to sell you music right the confluence of having so much granular information with you Coupled with the ability to structure the transaction the business model everything else the legal terms and everything else In a financial incentive right means that companies are going to be in a better position than you in order to get as much out Of that transaction as possible and that's a very real truth and one that I don't know how to mediate But that's that's got to be right right Thank you all for coming. I've had this stop signal