 episode 23. I know the thumbnail for our last one is 23. The title says 22. The title is correct. The thumbnail is wrong. So it is what it is. How you guys doing? I hope you're having a lovely night. I hope everything's working for us over here. We're kind of back to our original podcast setup that we intended for this current set that we have. We have a special guest on by the way floating above my head. Mr. Andres Restar, baby. How's it going, bud? I'm chilling. I thought it was kind of funny how like you had hit me up earlier this week. It's like, hey, do you want to come on? And I'm like, what time? And I didn't say anything else. Like in my brain, I was just like, yeah, of course going to come on. But I didn't tell you anything else. So you just thought I was ignoring you. Are we good? And there's no response today. I hit you up. I'm like, hey, man, it's cool if you're not coming. Can I just know so I can try to scrown somebody else? In my brain, I was always going to be on. We're good. Yeah, I just didn't actually provide words to you. But yeah, man, I'm excited to come on. I'm excited to talk about maybe Donkey Kong, maybe GoldenEye and other cool stuff. So yeah, I'm excited. Where'd it go? It's weird. We haven't had a podcast guest on in a while. So we welcome you back to the cast. It's awesome. We have some news from you guys, by the way, out there about the channel. We'll talk about that in a moment. Because our very first topic is we're going to be addressing the fact the reason that we didn't even have a podcast last week. Was it because Eric and I weren't available? We were actually here. Yeah, we ended up playing my back for blood. I was going to say it gave us a great gaming gaming night, which was like, that was cool. We haven't had a good gaming night. That is very true. But we would have liked to do our show like normal. We could have gamed around the show. But so obviously, if this is your guys' first time seeing us on a live stream since it happened, because you only come and watch the podcast or listen to our audio version, the thing is we got hacked last week and lost the channel for almost 72 hours when it wasn't quite 72 hours. It was a bit of a rough one. I'm not going to go into the details of exactly how the hack occurred. No folks, my password was not stolen. So we were bringing up, Nate, you brought up how you used the same password for everything. It wasn't a literal sense. It was like my Wi-Fi password is also like, I don't know, the password to get on to my fiance's computer or something like that. It's not that my bank accounts are using the same passwords as my Wi-Fi, or that my YouTube channel didn't have its own unique password. They all had unique passwords for stuff that money's involved, right? I make money on YouTube. I have money in the banks. Those have way more complex passwords that now I don't even know because I had to change them all. I took me a long time to memorize the ones I had. So it is what it is. But no, they didn't actually steal the password. It was that they got a piece of malware onto my computer and were able to grab an access file that exists in your cache on your web browser once you log in. That access file doesn't actually give them the password because it's encrypted, but you can import that access file into another web browser and it'll just automatically have you logged in. And once you're in, YouTube security measures once you're logged in are not very good. As an example, they go to change your backup email. They don't confirm the backup email change. They just let you change it, just like they let you change the old phone number. No confirmation. Now, I got to understand if you don't have, you know, you change your phone number, you don't have your old phone number, but the email thing doesn't make any sense. If you change the backup email, you should be able to confirm at the prior email. And if you can't, then get a hold of YouTube to change it. They start to interrupt you, but your microphone's a little fuzzy. Like you're entirely audible to me, but every time you talk, there's like a little bit of static is there behind your voice. Like more than a second. No, I still I see the static of it. You see it? That sounds better, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think, I think it's because we had the game really turned up on Eric. Just talk louder. Anyways, was that loud? It's cool. I was wondering what it was because I saw like a little static thing and I was like, what is that? And I realized his mic is turned way up. So, all right. Yeah, I know I'm a bit low involved, but here's what happens when I turn it up. Well, maybe it won't happen for me. There's a static again. I don't know. I mean, that was too loud. There's a sweet spot. I don't know. It doesn't matter. It is what it is, guys. We make do the best we can. All right. All right. We haven't had a guest on in a long time. My microphone is traditionally really quiet, by the way, because I talk loud. Yes, he does. And you don't want me when I scream or shout or get really excited to end up blowing your eardrums out. So, I'll turn your volume up on your guys' side because I know you can do that and it sounds fine because I've listened to my podcast back and it sounds fine when I turn the volume up. So, here's the deal. Here's the deal, Leo. We got hacked last week. And yeah, so that's how they gained access. I'm not going to get into. I've already talked about a little bit about how it happened. So, people think I'm blaming my children for some reason. By the way, my children never gotten in trouble for it just so you guys are aware. Some people out there thought that you should just go beat your kid. No. It's my fault, folks. I should have had my computer on sleep mode so they couldn't get on it. So, I don't blame my kids. Yeah, they know not to be in here. And sure, we had a little, you know, talk and lesson and, you know, a little bit of scolding, but there was not like, oh my god, you're grounded for two weeks. No. I was a kid and I know what happened when my dad tried doing that. I didn't make anything any better. It's like, no, just make it so I can't get on your stuff. Problem solved. So, yeah, I, it's all on me for not locking down. They did it out of ignorance. You know, it's just, it's just, I've never had a problem with it in four years and my kids are older now. So, obviously, higher chance of there being a problem. So, it is what it is. So, yeah, we dealt with all that, dealt with YouTube, which that was a whole mess. YouTube is not good when it comes to dealing with stuff like this. There's not, you don't get to talk to a human for starters. I didn't speak to an actual human at YouTube for, oh god, 32 hours, meaning for seven and a half hours, there was a live stream on my channel, which had its name changed that I couldn't do anything about. Bare minimum, I wanted that stream taken out. Yeah. Couldn't do anything about it. To a certain extent, you're really lucky. They didn't do, they didn't stream porn and just completely get your channel. Even then, I would have got it back. Well, here's the thing. It was permanently banned. They confirmed it was hacked, got it back to me. Eric and I are in the middle of the night. We get it back and then I go to sleep and wake up and my channel is terminated. So their teams aren't communicating. I got the determination overturned, of course, which if they were streaming porn, it also would have got overturned. I made sure to confirm once I was talking to a human that if that was what they would have streamed, yeah, because it was confirmed that you were hacked. So like, they know it wasn't you on your channel. So we're not going to punish you in that way. Now, there's other ways my channel has been unfortunately affected. And it's not just the law subscriber count. There are other things like my ad revenue is now cut in half. It is what it is. I have no idea when it's going to bounce back. It's kind of tough shit. You got hacked and there was an illegal stream on your thing that triggers the automated system because everything's automated at YouTube to say, oh, nope, you did something naughty, we're going to knock you down an ad too. And of course, it is what it is. It doesn't want to go back and revert that either. Oh, no, because they can't. I actually asked them and they manually cannot do it. It's all automated. Why? It's all because YouTube is rammed by AI. I get that, but you should have a manual over it for everything. Nope. As an example, oh, changes to the algorithm. They didn't change anything to the algorithm. The AI just decided to change it. Everything is AI. You literally, the little amount of control actual humans have over YouTube is really almost embarrassing. But it is what it is. It's like YouTube is like this. That cost me nothing to upload videos to and that's pretty cool. And hey, they pay me. By the way, YouTube wasn't always this way. Not everyone could make money and you used to have to have an MCN. If people don't know, that's why MCNs existed. You couldn't have ads on your YouTube channel without being part of the network. But it's kind of crappy because YouTube basically has a monopoly on the form of video, not on live streams, but the form of video delivery we have. There's other options like daily motion, but they're not really options. There's not a big audience there. There's no discovery there. And pretty much, if you've heard of daily motion, it's probably because you looked up a show illegally to watch online. It's probably the only reason you've probably even heard of daily motion. I'll give you an example. The entire Zelda cartoon series, and go ahead, Nintendo, come at me. I don't even care. I don't have access to the account anymore. I uploaded the entire Zelda cartoon series on an old Zelda Informer email account on daily motion back in the day and it's still up to this day. So if you've ever enjoyed for free the entirety of the Zelda cartoon series online, it was probably from me uploading it because they have like millions and millions of views. It is what it is. Daily motion. I don't know how they don't get dinged as much legally. You, I'm seeing people are saying that I'm loud in the chat. Should I like adjust my audio level? Yeah, I would turn yourself down. I turned it down to my, but if I turn it down anymore, it's like Let me do it on discord. I don't like touching the actual microphone. All right. Well, you're doing that. So obviously we got the channel back. Everything is good for the most part. Obviously, we talked about the ad running me cut in half. My videos are out of order. There are some things I just can't do anything about. So, how's that? I had guys, let me know if that sounds better on my end now. You look about even with me. So that sounds better. That should be good. The chat let you know. Is it good? Are we all good here? This is, see, this is a problem with audio checks. Things can sound fine on my end, but that's perfect. Yeah. So it's great now. All right. So I was dealing with all this behind the scenes and obviously pretty stressed out about it, especially as we were coming up to the end of the month, we obviously had Dreadtober giveaways going on and it was all just a big kerfuffle. And my bank account was also tied directly to my channel. So I locked down, not my main bank, like we have multiple bank accounts, but the bank account that has all the YouTube revenue in it, that one I locked down because I didn't want to risk them making withdrawals because my account information was on there, wire transfers, all that jazz. So locked all that down and unfortunately it's going to take like two to three weeks to unlock everything because I have to wait for new cards and I have to wait for basically them, they're basically going to be going through every transaction, making sure there wasn't any fraud and then moving it to an entirely new account. So I have a different account number. So that's just taking a little bit to sort through there, but that's whatever. It's fine. We have other sources of revenue and other bank accounts, we're fine. It's not a big deal, per se, it just matters for the giveaways. That's why the Dreadtober giveaways have been extended because I'm extending them until I have access to the account to pay for them. But that's either here or there. What really matters is what's happening with the future of the channel. So today, officially, some people got really upset because they saw their memberships were paused. And the last time they saw that their memberships were paused was last week when we got hacked, which I find weird that they paused the memberships and they hacked us considering that that's a revenue stream, what they want that money to, I don't know, whatever. So people thought we got hacked again because they got that email saying their membership was paused. No, after talking to several bigger YouTubers behind the scenes who were helping me out through this process trying to get their YouTube contacts involved and everything. I have decided to rejoin the space of multi channel networks, a little reluctantly, but also a little bit intelligently. For starters, I can leave in three months and be done. So if it's a mistake and I don't like it, I'm out peace. I got a decent contract, it's 90 10. That's better than I had before. Last time was MCM was like 80 20 before that was 70 30. So it is the best I've ever gotten. And there is a potential to negotiate it down even smaller as we get bigger. So we'll see what happens on that front. But why did I join the multi channel network? Well, for starters, they could have shut down the live stream. So because there's two access points to the channel with an MCN connected to it because they can't disconnect the MCM. If you've ever been at MCN guys, any of the YouTubers out there, it's a little bit of a process to disconnect an MCN, you can't just click a button and be done with it. It's a two way street. So because of that, they would have still had root access to the channel and been able to backdoor it and shut down that live stream without YouTube even needing to be involved. So that's one thing we got hacked again, they can do stuff that I can't. Cool. To they have direct contact with actual humans at YouTube. And they basically ping their every time someone's hacked. In fact, while I was on them on the meeting, someone got hacked. And they literally had the CEO of the entire company, like literally just hopped on it like that and got YouTube to respond within 30 minutes of a suite. I got to watch that happen live. That was really cool. Now it could have, you can argue it could have been a setup, of course, which who knows, I'd tell like I went through and verified all of it. But it's kind of cool, like if that is the case. And the thing is, screenwave media is who I signed up with. And they are actually really well known in the gaming world of YouTube channels. I found, I didn't even know all the YouTube channels under it. Obviously a lot of people know Cinemassacre and Angry Video Game Nerd is under that banner. But not just them, apparently like spawn waves under there, RGT, beat em ups, Bob Wolf, pretty much everyone who's in my sphere of content creators, probably not Andre's restart yet, is in this multi channel network. So that obviously give me some confidence, obviously that other people in my space are trusting this and haven't left and have been there for years. So there's that and the extra protection and the direct connection to YouTube to prevent this in the future. Just a little peace of mind. Obviously we all said that revenue issue last year, they would have been able to help out with that. So that's one thing, a little peace of mind. Two, there's something I hate dealing with. And it's something that helps diversify the channel. And that is sponsorship and brand deals. We had a number of them during E3 took a lot of time to really get those set up about half my stress for E3 was setting up those things, sponsorship and brand deals. I don't want to deal with it. And I'm constantly emailed at least two, three, four times a week with potential brand deals. I usually end up turning them down. As you guys know, I don't I haven't had a brand deal here actually in quite some time. There was one deal I was working on quite recently that fell through. And I said, you know, whatever, something worth my time. So they already have a bunch of brands and stuff they work with. And they show me a few of them. And you know, they don't know which campaigns I can get into and whatnot, because the campaigns sell out and all that. But yeah, they're going to be handling all of that for me. So I'm going to have a different public facing email for business purposes, they'll be able to contact now if you guys want to contact me directly, I encourage you to join our Discord server. I encourage you to follow me on Twitter. My DMs are open on Twitter. I don't respond to everyone who DMs me, but I do check all the DMs. So there are ways to directly contact me, it just won't be through email unless it's for a giveaway specific thing. So yeah, it's going to be a different email here in the next few days. So all these companies can contact them directly and then they'll filter everything down to me. Now I could still go into that email if I want, it's withheld from me, but they're going to have an actual sponsorship brand person who's going to be handling all that for me doing all the negotiations. And basically, they're just going to come to me and say, sign here, you're going to get this paycheck and here is the stuff and here's the content that you need to make for it. And that's that simple, really simplifies it for me. I don't have to deal with the back and forth. And they have people available 24 seven to deal with it. So when you got like people in China or people in Europe that are trying to do brand deals, hey, I'm not usually awake to do that. So it takes a long time to communicate, they'll be able to deal with that. So there's that. And I emphasized with them that I really, really want my brand deals to become a staple at the channel moving forward as a way to diversify revenue in case YouTube ever comes along and says, yeah, we're going to take 4,000 from your channel again, because you have bots on your channel. That was the excuse last year. So because of that, we'll see how it goes with them. I told them how important it is. They're also going to help me with some networking and invite us to both of us to different cons and stuff where we'll get VIP access, which I don't really care as much about the VIP access, but they did emphasize to me how important it is to network. Oh, yeah. So it is what it is. Apparently, guys, I found out the spawncast was created in large part because of screenwave media. So you know how they got the same people on the spawncast? It's because they all met at a screenwave media event. So who knows, you know, who knows what could happen in the future. The problem is one of the one of the only real events they run in our areas in Ann Arbor. So like I'd probably fly there. I wouldn't drive. I would drive 10 hours. But I mean, still it's not that big. You and I just sit in the car for 10 hours. Not that bad. Yeah, I know. But I mean, literally, we could fly there and back in the same day in like half hour flight or whatever it is. Really quick flight. Zoom on over. Would have been nicer if we were going to get that speed train built, but anyways. Well, it would take us an hour and a half to drive to the cities first off. So and then so it'll be faster than driving 11 hours. I did I did them at 11 hours drive. It's crazy. Anyway, so I just signed up with them and we'll see how it goes. They were very, very nice. I talked to multiple people at the company. I got direct contact with people. It's it is what it is. So yeah, we give up 10% of our revenue. Now, some of you guys might be worried, what about our memberships and our donations? I want to make this clear to you as they made it clear to me and it's spelled out directly in the contract. They do not take 10% of your super chats. They do not take 10% of the memberships. Those are untouched by them. They are only touching Google AdSense revenue. Everything that you guys give to the channel goes to me. So no fear that money that you've been given to me is now going to go to them. Not happening. That was a big thing I was worried about as well because prior MCNs had had just taken a cut of everything and they're like, nope, we don't want money that we feel you are earning through the loyalty of your fan base. We only want the money that you're earning from basically Google. That's impressive. So that's really, really cool. Yeah, just turn ads off and then they make nothing. I think they might drop me at that point. I don't know if they stick with me. So we'll see if they deliver on the brand deals and all that. I did, by the way, mention up at Hey, it would be cool to have like a booze sponsor for our live streams. I do drinks and shots on live streams. They're like, yeah, working with alcohol companies is very, very tricky. And I'm like, I know, but I don't care. I'll be your first. I'll be your guinea pig. But yeah, I did tell them, you know, some ideas of things I think would work well with the channel. You know, any sort of drink sort of sponsor doesn't have to be monster in this case. They give me whatever. You know, I works fine because we're always drinking something on our podcast. Yeah, we are. So really, really natural fit to just squeeze something in for that. And I gave them some other ideas and they gave me ideas as well. So we'll see what happens guys. I have no idea if this is going to work out. It might just be a mistake. But if so, it's just a 90 day mistake. Not a big deal. And I don't think anyone can blame me in reaction to getting hacked. But you know what? I just wanted that extra layer for peace of mind right now. And we'll see what happens down the line. That being said, you guys have any thoughts on any of this hacking stuff? I mean, Eric knows obviously more about it because he was here dealing with it. I don't know. It's just stupid the fact that you can't get ahold of the people that you need to go to hold of. YouTube has just got it. There is dumb. In that area. I just find it absolutely reassinine that you can't get ahold of them. Yeah. It's pretty dumb that YouTube has nowhere to go. The thing is they used to. They just don't anymore. They used to have a call center at Google, believe it or not guys. You guys seen the movie The Internship? They did a call center in that movie. That call center actually existed back then. It doesn't anymore. You can't call Google for anything. So yeah. Eric sponsored by Mountain Dew. Right? Anyways, so I guess let's get into the show that you guys are really here for. Let's talk some video games, shall we? Right? That's a thing we do here at this channel. Do we talk games? I mean, it does say nintiner. And there's SpongeBob in the background, but he does have games. He does. He does have games. All right. Let's get into some game talk. What was our first game topic? Donkey Kong? Yeah, Donkey Kong, which I guess isn't necessarily games, but related. So a rumor popped up today at thegiantrobot.com or whatever, some sort of website that actually has a really good track record with rumors about TV shows and movies. So that's why a lot of people, even IGN, picked up on it because this place has really good track record with these leaks. And they are claiming that we are going to get a Donkey Kong movie made by Illumination, obviously the same people making the Mario movie. Obviously going to be voice acted by Seth Rogen because it's just they're kind of kind of spin it off of the Mario movie, I would assume. So Mario next year, maybe DK in 2023 or something like that. And this to me, I know this is just the way it is now since Marvel, but the Nintendo cinematic universe seems to be a real thing. Heck yeah. Yes. It's happening. It's happening. You guys didn't think they were going to get Seth Rogen and have only being this, right? Of course he's got to have his own movie. Yeah. So that was a crazy thing when we got the September Direct and they showed off all the different actors, a lot of high profile actors for these different Nintendo characters. But then when they showed Seth Rogen for Donkey Kong, that was like a hold up a moment. Like, I feel like it's just like a little bit higher tier than the others, in my opinion. But then they're also like, oh, yeah, we got this other guy for a cranky Kong as well. It's like, wait, cranky Kong's in the movie too. Like it's not just Donkey Kong in there. You know, like Donkey Kong, first of all, surprised to see that Donkey Kong is me in the movie, right? Because Donkey Kong's like expanded Mario universe kind of character. Like he's not a part of like the main Mario universe where he is, but you don't understand my point. He's like the expanded one, right? You usually don't see Donkey Kong as an actual character with dialogue in a Mario game. You know, unless it's like Mario and Donkey Kong, right? But like you, for example, there was no Donkey Kong with dialogue in Super Mario Odyssey, but there was a Donkey Kong reference, but that was kind of like the biggest crossover we had seen between them in a mainline game in a long time. You go to Sunshine, you go to Mario 64, no mention of Donkey Kong, right? So to see Donkey Kong here, it's like, wait, that's interesting. But then to see that it's not just Donkey Kong, but also cranky Kong. That's very interesting, especially considering that we have the, we announced officially confirmed, but we knew about it because of blueprints, but they are, the next planned expansion for the, the Nintendo universal park is a Donkey Kong expansion. And then we consider the Donkey Kong characters in this Mario movie, that Donkey Kong park expansion. And now these rumors of the next Nintendo movie being a Donkey Kong movie, it is related to games. It is related to games because this brings us back to a few months ago, we were talking about the Donkey Kong game that's being made by internal Nintendo, like EPD. It all comes together. The whole, the, the big piece to that rumor was that Nintendo has this big plan to bring back Donkey Kong to make it a big, big deal. How do you do that? The basis for all of that has to be a big, awesome game. That's the basis. That's the core. These Donkey Kong movies, this Donkey Kong park, that's all just peripheral stuff to support. It's complimentary or supplementary content that's coming. The big thing is a Donkey Kong game. I don't know that with 100% certainty, but that's what I hard, hardcore believe. So that's exciting. Yeah. No, seriously, it is, it is, uh, it's very curious because obviously we have the Donkey Kong game rumors, which we were hoping would be unveiled this year for the 40th anniversary. They weren't, whatever, maybe it's not ready to go yet and they obviously have plenty of other content. So we'll have to see what comes of it. I do think we'll get a new Donkey Kong game eventually anyways. I don't think they're just going to leave it at tropical freezing be done. There clearly is going to be more Donkey Kong at some point. He's one of their primary mascots at low, but it'll be interesting to see what happens because we do know obviously they didn't publicly announce for sure this is confirmed they are doing a Donkey Kong expansion, right? So at the, uh, Universal Theme Park. So we already know that that's a thing and I just don't feel like they're going to do that and not try to like tie that into a bunch of other DK stuff around the same time, which conveniently that part's not opening until like 2023, which would work really well for a movie and a game potentially. We'll see. Of course, a lot of us think the game might come next year, but whatever, you know, it can kind of all be a long time of things. Right? The timing of next year and there's a Mario movie. So who knows? You know, it does have a new Mario game, by the way, since we're in New Zelda games supposed to be next year. And last Mario game we got happened to be four years ago. So great. Nice main game, of course. Yeah, you could, you could, you could argue that Bowser's Fury, 3D Whopper's Bowser's Fury pushes that a little bit. Because, I mean, that was a good 10 to 15 hours game. Yeah, it was fairly substantial, you know, not as long as Mario Odyssey, but you know, it was an experience. Yeah, it was like when I paid 60 for it, I don't know, but it was fun. It was fun, well. Yeah. So and then the base game 3D World was still like, you know, compared to other Wii U ports was, it was pretty, they did some nice work to it, you know, it had gotten a little bit of a visual bump, they sped up a gameplay, like there was a number of quality life improvements, and then they added Bowser's Fury, like 3D Whopper's Bowser was kind of a big deal. But because of that, I do kind of think that the timeline in the next 3D Mario is kind of pushed up a little bit. I don't think, I don't know if next year is the year for 3D Mario. Like, so there's an interesting sort of difference, in my opinion. Okay, so like with the Mario movie, there doesn't need to be a Mario game at the basis of it all to kind of like propel that forward, right? Because Mario is the most established Nintendo character by far. There's Mario content coming out every single year. It's not the same thing. But with Donkey Kong, I do think it's different. I think with Donkey Kong, there needs to be a game at the core of it all. There's no game at the core of it all. It's kind of weird, I think. Now, you know, you can make the argument that Donkey Kong's presence in this Mario movie is going to raise awareness for a Donkey Kong brand, because, you know, it's riding the coattails of Mario, but then they could, you know, branch off and then have the Donkey Kong movie afterwards, you know? So that kind of works. But then they're also playing this Donkey Kong park. Like, that all kind of works, but I still feel like at the basis of it all, there has to be a game, a good one, a big one. And that is Nintendo's core business, games, right? When Iwata, you know, before he departed, his plan, you know, the NX is a big part of the plan, right? The NX being the switch, that another big part of the plan was to expand Nintendo with multimedia and mobile games. And they've done that with mobile games, and now they're starting to do it with, you know, movies and parks and stuff. But the core of it all is the games, right? The idea of the movies, the idea of the parks, the idea of the mobile games was to propel the main core games on the NX, the switch. That's the core, right? So I think we're going to see the Donkey Kong game. I mean, we already have those rumors circulating things. I've told you that I've been told things as well. Like, so, like, it's, I think that's at the core. I'd be shocked otherwise. But the timing of it is also interesting, right? Because like, when, when does that happen? Like, we were hoping we would get an announcement this year. But when it comes to these rumors, like, yeah, I've heard that it's real. But that doesn't mean Nintendo has to put it out when we want them to put it out, right? Like Skyward Sword HD was teased to us by Al Anuma years before it was actually announced, you know? So when does it actually happen? Same thing with Prime Trilogy HD or Metroid Prime, whatever it ends up being a remake or the three, like, we've known about that for a few years too. So, like, I'd love for it to be announced soon. But conceivably, because maybe the movie doesn't come out to, the movie's not coming out, the Donkey Kong movie's not going to come out until 2023, that's the earliest. I wouldn't, I'd be surprised actually if it came out 2023 because these movies take a while. This Mario movie's been in development for a long time. Now they may, you know, jump right into the Donkey Kong movie, they may be developing it alongside of it. This thing may have already been in the works for quite some time already. But I don't know if they're going to be divided by a year. That I feel like, I don't know. I don't think the talent's just going to all of a sudden start pumping out a movie year by year immediately. Maybe we get to that point at some point, right? It is kind of like Marvel where we're seeing multiple things every year, but it's not going to happen overnight or over, or in the course of a year. So I'm not even sure we see the Donkey Kong movie in 2023. I would expect maybe 2024 at the earliest. That's just my personal expectation. We don't know. We don't have that much details. We don't see Mario yet. So it's like, yeah, they're pretty confident when it's coming out. And I'm sure, I mean, they could show it. I suppose they wanted to, but yeah, they're very varied. I mean, it's just like, you know, how long do we have to wait to finally see the Spider-Man trailer when we knew that's coming this year? It's like, we know it's coming. But like, they literally kept us waiting and waiting in ways like, yeah, they couldn't do it sooner. But you know, it's all about marketing and it's all about driving hype closer to when it's actually going to hit theaters. So people don't forget about it and just kind of push the hype to them or maybe push the disappointment for some people. Because I know some people are not happy with some of the voice acting choices. Have you seen the Dune movie? Which one? The Dune movie. The new one? I have not seen the new movie. Well, I mean, they already confirmed part two. But I think part two is not slated until 2023. So like, they announced part two immediately after part one and it's coming out two years later, you know? So I'm just saying, yeah, yeah, well, I'm just saying it just kind of serves my point that I feel like it might, it might be safer to expect this Donkey Kong movie if real to not come out till 2024. I just don't see 2023 really being a thing for the Donkey Kong movie. The reason I say 2023 is because it's animated. They have illumination we already know has released multiple animated films in the same year, let alone consecutive years. So that's why it's like, yeah, they could work on Mario and Donkey Kong at the same time. They don't even have to like mutually make them at different times. That's kind of, you know, it's a little different when it's like an action or like a live person movie because while you have your recording, then you have all the post editing and all that stuff that that gets done. Yeah. And so like, you know, and you're not going to keep the actors just working nonstop for two, three years straight. They have their break as well. So yeah, that's usually why those movies take two or three years. I mean, and I know people will be like, oh, but the Marvel movies, yeah, it's a little different because they separate everything out. There's different teams for each movie. So like, you know, the main actors aren't necessarily in every single movie. And even when they make appearances, they're usually small cameo ones, although we know in the Spider-Man one, not just strangers and a little cameo. He's pretty much like half of the dang movie. But that's cool. You know, we'll see. The thing is, we don't know. We haven't even seen the Mario movie and we don't even know if it's going to be great yet. I think this is more so to me, if this is true, shows confidence that Nintendo has an illumination, everyone involved has that Mario is going to be a success because if Mario flops, it doesn't make sense to do a DK movie. But I think they think it's going to hit. So we'll see. I mean, they wouldn't got a bunch of big name at that. They didn't do that for no reason. Yeah, they're putting money into this thing is going to be huge. You know, they probably saw what Sonic did. They saw with Detective Pikachu, then they said, this is Mario. It could do that. Right. We'll see. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, the movie doesn't even have to be like a really, really, really good like movie in terms of like winning awards. Like it just has to be okay. Look at all the Final Fantasy movies. Most of them are just terrible, but they keep making them because they make enough money to keep doing it. I'm just saying the movie doesn't like Detective Pikachu and the Sonic movie. They're okay, right? Like in terms of like just like as a movie. They're great for video game movies. Yeah, they're great for video game movies because the bar is so low. In the sense of a video game movie, holy crap, most of them suck. So these ones, right? Because I mean, if we're just comparing video game movies, they're some of the highest rate of video game movies ever. But if we're talking about just like as a movie, they're pretty like they're fun family flicks above average. Yeah, they're slightly above average family movies, right? They're not bad, but they're not greatness. You know, they're not they're not winning like nominations and stuff like that. Like the so the point is with the Mario movie, like there isn't a high bar that they have to hit if you just look at it as a movie. Well, I actually I would I would I would I would say that I say that we would we do know what their bar is. I think the bar is so let me explain. I mean, I know you kind of know this already, but like so the reason we haven't seen a lot of Nintendo movies over the last few decades is because of the abomination of the original Super Mario Bros movie, the live action one. Like Nintendo didn't have a lot of control over that. And as a result, that movie is awesome. I love it. Hold on. Hold on a second. Right? I enjoyed it. Okay, let's just make that clear. But it is also an abomination. No, it's in my top 10 movies of all time. Because you're a hardcore Nintendo fan. No, when I saw it, I was playing PC games. I didn't really even know who Mario was when I watched it. Well, even if you like the movie, the point is Nintendo didn't like the movie. They didn't like the image it portrayed Mario in. No, they didn't like they didn't have a lot of control over that. Right? And I love the flying jump boots. I think they had they mishandled the Koopa stuff. But you know, Yoshi was cool. Anyway, anyway, regardless of what you think or I think of the movie, how regardless of how much we enjoyed it, Nintendo had a huge problem with what what it did for for his brand. They didn't like how it portrayed the Mario character Mario or the or the other characters that this is the entire universe. They wanted more control. They didn't have control. So they kind of got scared away from the movie industry with that. Until now, you know, going going back to a Wada's plan yet they've had this plan for years to sort of expand the different Nintendo franchises to different things. So now they're you know, we saw what they saw what happened to Detective Pikachu. And then they saw with, you know, Sega, right, what they handed with it was Sonic with Sonic, right? Like also their thing, their bar is it has to be good, but also something that represents the franchise. That that's what their bar is. At the voice, Mario. Hey, who was the movie? Who was my expectations for the Mario movie, by the way, is that it's not going to be anything that anyone expected it to be. Mario's talking a lot. It's going to be very comedic. It's going to be just screw it. They're going all out to try to make a Hollywood version of Mario. Think about this. And we'll see what happens when Ryan Reynolds, when Ryan Reynolds did Detective Pikachu, the guys who plays Deadpool, and that worked out really well, right? So they can get away with that for Pikachu. They can get probably get away with Chris Pratt for for for Mario, although I think Ryan Reynolds is great. So one, there also is the whole everybody loves Ryan Reynolds, not everyone necessarily loves Chris Pratt, although Chris Pratt is popular. He's not as like universally loved. I don't think I've found a single person who doesn't like Ryan Reynolds. I mean, they're probably out there, but I have yet to see a single person talk bad about Ryan Reynolds. So there is that whereas Chris Pratt, for some reason, people are just divisive with him, and we won't get into what those reasons are. But and Seth Rogen obviously over there. I like him in Guardians of the Galaxy. I'll tell you that. But one thing I want to make sure we get through. Hugh Jackman doesn't like him. Hugh Jackman hates him. The one one thing I'm with the start of this NCU. The one NCU. I love it. The NCU, baby. Let's go. The one movie I'm looking forward to the most is Luigi's Mansion. You've got to know they're going to have one of those in the works eventually, especially with who they have voice in Luigi. It'd be perfect, man. You've got to know that they're going to have one of those in the work somewhere. But see, we also call this the NCU, but is it more like the like the MCU Mario Cinematic Universe? Because until they make a Zelda until they do, you know, Metroid or something else, which I look at how they handle Dread, forget its own movie, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hard to disagree. Oh, hard to say. All right, all right, all right. So, okay, hear me out. Okay. So with Metroid, first of all, look at how they handle Dread. That was very cinematic. I feel like the storytelling in Dread was brilliant. Have you been in the game yet? I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but play through Dread. It's really good. There are some awesome story beats in there. It's pretty impressive. Okay, it's awesome just to not give you any details, but say it's good. It's good. Okay, but also you got to take into consideration the very inspiration for the Metroid franchise is a movie. Alien. The blueprint is already there. They can do it. It can happen. The fact that think about the movies we talked about, they made a Pokemon movie, one of the biggest IPs in the world. They're making a Mario movie, one of the biggest IPs in the world. They're spinning it off a Donkey Kong movie, which is also one of the largest IPs in the world. Metroid doesn't rank up there. Well, no, no, no, no, no, no, well, this is about, but exactly. But see, I'm thinking ahead here. I'm optimistic about the future of Metroid. You're optimistic Metroid's about to become that. Right. But you'll drive Metroid. Yeah, I don't I don't I don't see Nintendo saying, yeah, we're going to get some high tier actors and put out a really good high quality Metroid flick. Well, here's the thing, you don't need the mini actors. You don't need that many actors. You got Sam. It's just and then maybe it's going to make Ridley talk maybe. But just so the other thing with Donkey Kong, though, to your point, Donkey Kong can get propelled by Mario. That's a good point. Like Donkey Kong isn't had serious impact before. And it seems like Nintendo's plan is to give Donkey Kong that serious impact again. They want to become a big deal. I get that. But similar to the way we're seeing signs, Nintendo wants to push Donkey Kong, they're clearly pushing Metroid right now. You cannot tell me that this is not the best marketed a Metroid game has ever been. Like, Nintendo's pushing Metroid more than anything else right now. I don't know. They have a plan for it marketed. I think it's just a game that shows really well. Is there another Metroid game that they've marketed better? The entire Prime series? The entire Prime series also happens to be the best selling Metroid games too on top of that. Yeah, but Metroid is going to outsell them. Probably, but we don't know. I'm hopeful. But again, my projection was five million in sales, which would be far to weigh the Metroid of all time. But again, we don't know because like literally a lot of games go out there. They sell a lot in the first week and then just drop off a cliff and Metroid sales kind of dropped off a cliff everywhere that we have actually had sales data for. So it's possible Metroid's getting the same treatment that pretty much everyone else in the industry, but Nintendo usually gets. And that is everyone that wants it buys it right away and then it's done. So we'll see. We don't know that like Nintendo's game sell well because they have evergreen sales. But Metroid's never had evergreen sales. So Metroid Drive would not only have to sell more at launch, it would also have to do something that Metroid games never done, which is have an evergreen sales and keep selling month over month over month. Breath of the Wild sold three million copies in the last year. That's more than pretty much any Metroid game ever. And that's like five years later. They've never been able to do that with a Metroid game. So we'll have to wait and see. I'm hopeful. But also there is stats out there kind of pointing to everyone kind of blew the reload at launch. And now that that might be it. Now there's a holiday period. Maybe we get a boost there. They're not going to stop marketing it until after the holidays. So we'll see. But I want to make sure I get a shout out here quick to J. Lo who was excited. The podcast is back saying podcast is back party mode. Thanks for the 20 bucks. I got your little shot of vodka here. By the way, guys, people don't know every time I stream at night anyways, not during the day at night. If you guys do any super chats or anything like that, we do I do shots. Anyway, sometimes you can convince Eric to pull off one. And then we also had a renewal on a membership earlier by Logan LeBlanc. Thank you so much for re upping your membership for five months. I know the whole membership sniffle over the last week. They're all good to go. So let's go Nate. Ninty prime time. Woo, the trio. This is like the ultimate trio. He is our most regular podcast. He's been on more episodes, I think than anybody else, maybe even more than Darren back in the day at this point, since he was so flaky. More than five J two because he was also flaky. So it's almost like it's almost like this is the triforce of Nintendo Prime at the moment. Andre's research just kind of hook in his his YouTube channel onto the Nintendo Prime train, trying to take him to the moon. That's okay. Sure. It's all good. Who cares? Go subscribe. I'll pop a subscription link in the thing. We have a new thing this week where we do have a way to link his channel and you guys can go subscribe to him. I'll pop that up. We do have a spam thing in the chat that our mods are not getting to. I will take care of quick. Have I made you a mod on here, by the way? Yeah. Okay. All right. I got that. Bird van got it too. All right. So that's cool. Do you have any other thoughts, man, about Donkey Kong movie? Like, I'm excited. I'm just excited to see I love illumination. I love movies. So for all you guys that hate illumination out there, he's exact opposite, like amazing minions, all the stuff's funny as shit. And also you guys get annoyed by it. I don't really care. I think it's all hilarious. I'm not if you guys can tell I really love the original Mario movie, which means I'm not as judgmental about movies as a lot of people are. I just go to enjoy. I could laugh and then it depends on the movie. Yeah. Are you not entertained? Are you not entertained? I thought Detective Pikachu was amazing. And some people aren't into slapstick. Oh, that's that's yeah. So some people aren't into that. Like some people don't like Will Ferrell because it's all slapstick. Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's what he does. And some people like it or don't. Yeah, I'm flexible with my interest, right? Like I can enjoy a good serious sort of dark brooding movie. I could also enjoy something that's just very abstract and, you know, makes you really think or not know what's going on. I can enjoy horror. I can enjoy good romance, good comedy. And I can enjoy a good family movie, you know? Yeah. So I'm looking forward to it. This movie based on the cast anyways is going to lean towards the family try to do funny slapstick comedy. So we'll yeah, we'll see. And by the way, that's what illumination is best at. So I would rather illumination do what they're good at. Yeah, well, there's probably going to be a billion toads at one point on screen. Oh yeah. For sure. And I think I think Chris Pratt actually would be pretty good. Like based off his sort of like demeanor in Guardians of the Galaxy, you know, he's he's kind of a hearing just worried about the character sounding like especially with like Seth Rogan. I've heard some complaints that well, Seth Rogan doesn't really do voices per se. And his when when he does his animated stuff, it's just his voice. And people are all like it might feel weird to have Donkey Kong have the same voice as say the sausage from sausage party. And like, I think it's hilarious. I'm like, we're starters. We remember that one is an adult film. Yeah, one is a children's film, right? Children aren't going to make that association. So don't worry about it. Yeah. But I mean, Seth Rogan has kind of like a he has like a tougher sounding voice. And Donkey Kong is definitely a tough guy. Right. So like, you know, I think from that perspective, it makes sense. It's gonna be it's gonna be interesting to see, like if they put him like in a humorous sort of context, like I wonder how that how that's going to kind of fly. Unless they it's not going to fly. I'm just kind of curious how it's going to go. Like I'm just very curious to see it all come together. It was interesting that Miyamoto is actually going along with all of this because people were actually worried about Miyamoto being involved in the project because he's so reserved with a lot of the characters. And I pointed out that hey, he also was the person who was the mastermind behind all those Pikmin shorts back in the day. And those are actually kind of cute and kind of funny and, you know, clearly showing that he has an interest in animation and doing something with that. And by the way, I don't think Miyamoto, like he's heavily involved in this, but I don't think guys, he's writing the script. He's making every single decision. I think he's just doing what he's been doing at Nintendo a long time. He's overseeing, making sure the project stays true enough to Nintendo, but it's still its own thing. Clearly, it's own thing based on just the voice cast alone. You're really going to let this be its own thing realizing we can't just take the video game and make it a movie. Everyone's tried that. It basically doesn't work. Like, why did Sonic work as a movie? They didn't really just take the video game and make it a movie. They created kind of their own thing around it with those characters, right? Same thing with Detective Pikachu. A fantastic game. You wouldn't really think it would make sense as a movie, but they didn't do it like the game. They took elements of the game and then kind of expanded to its own thing and actually made it sort of a serious story out of it. It was really cool. I like what they did with the game. I mean, I think it helped that Detective Pikachu was, it's not, it's already a spin-off that has more of a narrative than something that's an easier, more a traditional narrative than, say, like the mainline games. So it was based off of that. And I guess the key thing here is that specifically with Detective Pikachu, I didn't watch the Sonic movie yet. I haven't. I should. But when you watch the movie, it's clear the people who made the movie know Pokemon. Like they understand, you can tell that it's made by Pokemon fans. So the fact that Miyamoto has been overseeing his entire project, we're going to go in as Mario fans and we're not going to be like, this was made by some dude who's never played a Mario game before. Like you're not going to get that vibe. And that's going to go over a long ways towards, you know, pleasing a lot of fans. And fortunately for Mario, like there's a lot of Mario fans. So, you know, that is suggestive of a high grossing movie already. Just on brand alone, it's probably going to do well, even if it's not like well put together. But I think it is enough. I love the chat. Chief Firewater. Okay, we're not going to go too much in this awesome party. I really love that movie by the way. It's especially fun if you partake in some, let's just say when you're buzzing or any other adult thing you might be doing. Legally, of course. All right. I think it's time to probably get into our next topic, which, well, do you remember what the topic was, Eric? Well, considering I can see you're running your screen, GoldenEye possibly coming into the switch. Yeah, buddy. So this is actually something that we were going to talk about last week, but hello. How's it going? Our channel didn't exist on this day last week. So. No, it did. It was just Shibu Inu. Oh, my God. That's not. Yeah. Shibu Inu to the punted to the moon. Yes. You know, I must send them up in one of your rockets. You're done with it. All right. So, yeah, there was this thing where a partner company of Nintendo filed to get GoldenEye, quote unquote, unbanned in Germany, which it really wasn't banned. But what happened with GoldenEye in the country like Germany when it originally came out in the N64 was they have a different way of rating things there. They don't just use the Peggy rating system. They essentially said this game can only be bought by people that are 25 and older, which really hurt the ability for it to sell. You guys all know here it was teen, teen older, no problem. Everyone can get it. But like they really restricted the sales of that game to a very specific group of people back in the N64 days. And Nintendo, what happens is all these things that happened back then get reviewed every 25 years. So we're actually not that far away from when this would have naturally came up for Germany to review that rating and remove the restrictions and allow people to buy it, which at this point doesn't really matter because it's never been made. This original form of the game has never been made available again, due to all the different copyright owners, which by the way, Nintendo is one of those copyright owners. There's a ton of companies that own copyrights for that specific game, which is why it's never really come back. We have had the GoldenEye remake game, but it wasn't the same thing. So what happened is Nintendo's partner company actually filed early to have this game have the restrictions removed. Now, why would you do that when literally in like two years, it's already going to come up again automatically without them having to pay a fee, because they have to pay money for them to get it reviewed early. So Nintendo and their partner companies paying money to have the game reviewed early, when it would have been reviewed in two years, a game that's never come out again. Why would you do that unless you're planning to have it come out again, before that review period comes up? That seems to be the suggestion at this point. Again, it's sort of a leap of faith to think this, but also, why else would they possibly be reviewing this? It's not a movie related thing. And it's a game from the 90s. So it's not like it's a game that's even currently available to buy anywhere. So the only reason would be, well, because it's going to be available again in some form. Now, granted, this might not be necessarily Nintendo Switch Online. It could be an N64 retro console, like they've done with the NES Mini, stuff like that. It could also be that, hey, this game is going to get republished on Xbox or PlayStation or somewhere else. I don't know. So that's always possible. But it was Nintendo's partner company, not Xbox and Sony's partner company that did this now. You might wonder why not Nintendo directly? In Europe in general, Nintendo basically relies on partner companies for everything. Like in China guys, by the way, like Nintendo doesn't do anything directly. It's all through Tencent. They're partnered with Tencent. So you guys might hate Tencent, but Tencent's the reason you can buy a Switch in China. Tencent's the reason you can get Nintendo games in China, because you can't do anything in China without Tencent. They have such a monopoly there. It's insane. But that's not the case in Europe. Europe has their own different factions for different countries. And Nintendo doesn't just publish their own stuff everywhere. They work through partner companies. So that seems to be the suggestion. Now, there's more we can get into here about Nintendo Switch Online and the N64 stuff. But first, where are your guys' thoughts just on this general story and even the minute thought that a game that hasn't been able to come back due to all these copyrights could come back? And my only argument I have, besides that this is a fact-based thing that this actually happened, but we don't know what it's for, is they also had to jump through hoops with Disney, which I feel like is a much harder to do to get Sora than it would be to work with a bunch of movie production companies and write owners for an IP. When you can look at them and go, each of you will get a cut of money. Whereas Disney is like so protective, they've been blocking Sora forever. And by the way, it was a chance meeting. We now know it was a really a chance meeting for Sakurai that led to Sora getting into Smash. But there are more companies involved, which makes it more complex. There's only two companies involved for Sora. So I don't know, what are you guys talking about? So before we jump into the N64 stuff, I want a tangent real quick. Quick one. It says he brought up Sora because we were getting more information from Sakurai and like some of the thought process that goes into some of the characters. Like with Sora, like it was, there was a chance meeting that sort of propelled that obviously there's more things happened after the fact, but that sort of spearheaded that movement for Sora. Right? Not to mention there is the prior stuff of him being the top voted character for the fan ballot. But then like we also hear recently that initially they wanted to have Rex in Smash Brothers, but the idea of having Rex and Pyra together, gone the way from a technical perspective. So eventually they made the creative decision to just do Pyra and Myth or interchangeably as one character. So the reason I bring that up is just like, a lot of people make these assumptions like, Oh, see, it was always never going to be this character was going to be this character. It's not that simple. When it comes to the creative design, like perspective, like decisions have to be made. And changes need to be done to sort of conform to that. Right. So for example, people thinking that Rex never had a chance. No, Rex had a chance. It was just when it came down to developing the characters. This is how it sort of made the most sense. They had to make certain decisions to get something going. Or for example, Sora, Sora ended up being like the ideal sort of climactic character. So people say, Oh, well, Master Chief or Doom Guy could not have happened. Well, if they didn't have Sora, maybe they would have picked someone else that was kind of huge instead to close things out. Like it just kind of comes down to how things shake out. It isn't necessarily that another character wouldn't have had a great chance if things just sort of had, if there were just like slightly different circumstances, right? According to Sakurai, at least in terms of Sora, he was not part of this DLC originally. It was added on after the fact. The bonus character. And so the five characters we got before were actually just going to be the five characters that were going to be in the DLC. Sora was literally a bonus addition that happened after they already decided the characters. This is this is Sakurai who said this. So it's it's one of those situations where I don't know the order of the characters coming up might have changed. That's possible. You know, I don't know which one they would have ended with. You know, you say, Oh, I ended with Andrew Kazooie, but Andrew Kazooie didn't sell very well. So that might have made me hype. But most kids today playing Smash don't even know who the character is and doesn't care. So like, is that really a good way to end where Sora is actually relevant today? You know, so it's one of the situations. I don't really know what they would have ended with. To me, I look at that five pack of characters without Sora and I go, none of those characters are really like universally going to be loved. So I kind of sort of lucked into it, by the way. Sakurai's already explained all this. He explained how he bumped into someone at an awards show and that forgot the point rolling. He didn't even think it was possible. He's apparently tried before and got totally shut down because he's, guys didn't know he's a big fan of Kingdom Hearts who knew Sora LTD. Oh my gosh, it's almost like he's referencing Kingdom Hearts in the name of his company. Yeah, it's funny how many people didn't realize how big a fans like, did you not know the name of his company? It's literally a direct reference. Yeah, he very clearly loves Kingdom Hearts and would really love for Sora to be there. But like he could, he literally said, I tried this before and it was like, no, it can't happen. He thought it was impossible after he tried. Chance meeting, meet the right person, ball gets rolling, next thing you know. Yeah, the ultimate theme that I think we're both kind of agreeing on here is just like, there's a certain air of unpredictability when it comes to these things. So like, I guess, basically, you never know what's gonna make it come together. Yeah, right. And sometimes there are happy accidents where they sort of find themselves in a situation where they can have a character like this to like close things out in a very beautiful, conclusive way. Right. But going back to the topic, because I'm sorry, I created that tangent there. Yeah, I do kind of feel like that this is going to happen. And for n64 online, specifically, like, yes, you brought up other possibilities. Hasn't been around in 20 plus years online, multiplayer for one of the OG, like even perfect dark, I want that as well. But yeah, by the way, I'm not saying I want this instead of perfect art, both. Yeah, give us both. Yeah. They both were the pillars of FPS multiplayer games on home. And this is everyone looks at Halo and Xbox. Yes, that that was that that popularized online. But when it came to just cover that up, FPS. Yeah, it was you played on PC or nothing. Then these two games came out. Yeah. And it changed the game. Except this time, they'll be online. Yes, like that. So that's so one be one be one in we're going to get into some big paintballs. Let's go. We're going to get to some criticisms for n64 online. But before we do, one thing that's kind of clear about n64 online is that in terms of the lineup that they have and what it seems like they have planned, they're going above a lot of people's expectations. Like we already have confirmed rare games coming. Banjo-Kazooie is coming. That was already something that a lot of people debated would even happen. So with Banjo-Kazooie coming, the implication is we could get other stuff. I feel like after Banjo-Kazooie is about to smash, it was very clear that Microsoft is willing to work with Nintendo on anything. Right. Yeah. Because by the way guys, Microsoft is probably getting a cut. They're not just going to hand you Banjo-Kazooie. They're going to get a cut of subscription fees or something. And that's the rumor as to why part of the reason why the price is so high for the expansion pack plus because there is a lot of companies at a hand. Like it's not even just like Microsoft. Like for example, Winback is not even like the Nintendo thing, but that's on n64 online. So there are other companies involved here. And then obviously you have the Sega Genesis stuff, right? There's a whole bunch of stuff with that. Like there's other companies getting a cut. So they have a hefty price here. But what that may ultimately mean is that the kind of lineup we would have hoped for for Sega Genesis and n64, it's going to be, it's going to, it's going to, it's going to meet our expectations. So, you know, I actually have some hope based on what we've seen so far from the software lineup that getting something like Goldeneye is not out of the question. And again, to your point, you know, we've seen Nintendo doing things like with Disney. Like it's not impossible. If there's it, if there's a true desire there, they can make it work. So, and charging us $50 for this route, you know, for arguably not the best service is probably how it's going to be able to be accomplished because there's a lot of companies getting money here, hence the higher price. Um, shout out to the young caps. Thank you so much for the $5 as big weave here. Sora is the Japanese word for sky. So you'll hear it a lot in Japanese media and companies. My anon is Samurai naming it after Kingdom Hearts. What's interesting about, about that, which by the way, I knew it meant sky, is that the only reason that I mentioned that the company was named after that and not named after sky, like the, like the sky is because Sakurai himself mentioned that he named his company after. He literally said that when they announced the character. Um, but yeah, dude, it's cool, man. It's cool. By the way, shout out to the young caps. Yeah, you guys were excellent guests on our E3 show. It was awesome. We should really get you back on the podcast sometime. I know you guys also talk Nintendo, you know, just talk Xbox and other stuff. So, um, we should get you guys back on a future episode. You guys are awesome. Thanks so much for the $5. By the way, cheers to you. Um, Eric, GoldenEye, Switch, is it happening? And I, how hyped would you be? Sure as hell. Would you, would you buy Nintendo Switch Online, Expansion Pass, if it was there? Yeah. That's the better question. Yeah. Whoo. I mean, I'm excited for the Expansion Pass. I mean, I haven't gotten it yet, but, you know, I was excited for the 64. 64 is my, my absolute hate. And yet you haven't got the Expansion Pass. I know, I know, I know. But again, but, but do you need it? You can just go play the originals. Online play is great, but also do you need it? No. Like, how likely are you to play a bunch of Mario Kart 64 online? Sounds cool. Yeah. Maybe on the channel, but like besides playing it here or a couple matches with me. I get you. I get you. Yeah. You can do a competition. I mean, your audience is a little choppy. I'd rather bring over my 64 and kick your ass in that. Oh, the OG. Oh, we got to get the HDMI hook up though, so we can stream it. Oh, yeah. But that they exist though. Just, just a heads up, Eric, your, your audio is a little choppy. I don't know. His audio is what? It's a little choppy. A little choppy? Yeah, a little choppy. Hold on. Like, you're audible. It's just like not clear. I'm just reset. Go on for a moment while I fix his mic. Okay. Goldeneye specifically. I think Goldeneye is cool. I wanted on N64 online. I think it'll be great. No, seriously though, like, I think, I mean, I can't like guarantee it, right? But I do like, if there is ever a time that I thought Goldeneye could happen, this is the time. Basically, we already kind of like mentioned it, right? But just the whole, the whole thing of what we're seeing on N64 online, we're seeing the rare games on there, we're seeing other companies getting involved with that. We see like in today's day and age, Nintendo is pretty capable at working with other companies and getting seemingly impossible sort of rights issues overcome. Like, I think it could happen. Now, we're seeing this sort of weird situation of it being unbanned in Germany. You know, I think that that is promising, right? It doesn't guarantee anything. But yeah, I'm, I'm somewhat optimistic that this could happen. No, I don't want to guarantee it again. But you know, I'm kind of, I'm kind of feeling like it might happen. And that would be huge. And I mean, considering all the backlash, Nintendo may feel pressure to really deliver the goods as well. Like, I don't, I kind of feel like all the backlash, hi. Cool. All right, is Eric any better? Eric, tell me about Goldeneye. Let's see how it goes. Yeah, I don't know. Am I any better? I hope. Yes, you are. You are much better. Much better. Much better. Sounds good. Yeah, the mic we were using is a brand new one that we haven't actually used before. So yeah, so there could be a problem with it. We'll test it off. Yeah, no, I'd be super excited for it. I mean, yeah, I could go back play the original. It's still going to be still fun. But no, I one reason why I could see it happening is in my hope is kind of the one of those things that there may have been because it's been, you know, how many years now, there's probably been some changes of guards and heads of these companies that have, you know, rights to this game, where they might be kind of in that wheelhouse of playing the game and remembering how awesome it was and wanting to see it come back. Plus also make the money off of it because they know they can. I think it's all money driven out and they give a crap about how awesome the original game was. That's the whole reason hasn't come back is because all the disputes over who makes the money. There's so many companies involved that it feels like the cut of the pie is so small that why bring it back because if even one company says no, it can't happen. It's all or nothing. But also you never know. It's one of those situations where Nintendo might know it's a big get for their service. It could move people. It could get rid of some of the stigma against the expansion back right now because people might go, well, 30 bucks, but you get golden eye. You can't even get that anywhere, let alone online. There's people who have modded it to play online on PC, but even then it's kind of wonky and doesn't work very well. Does it get to a point where Nintendo just goes, all right, you said no. Here's a wad of cash. Let me buy your rights to it. I mean, maybe. That's an interesting take. I have no idea. All I know is, I mean, would this be enough to make people forget about how upset they are over the expansion back pricing and because more bad news has come out, by the way. I haven't talked about it yet on the channel. Nintendo has confirmed there's no more N64 games coming out this year, so they released in October. We're not getting any new ones in November. We're not getting any new ones in December and we have no idea when we're getting new ones next year. Now, we know some of the ones that are coming like Banjo-Kazooie and all that people got hyped about, but we also don't know when those games are coming. And one of the major criticisms of Nintendo Switch Online in making this a service is we have no idea when we're getting new games, let alone what those games are going to be. Now, we do have an idea of what the games are going to be initially, but when and how and how often is it going to happen. Is it going to be six months before we get new ones? Because this is a subscription that we pay for. It's a sub that they want you to keep subscribing to. And we know it felt like it was going to be monthly. Originally, we were getting NES games almost every month. Then we got SNES games almost every month. And then it just stopped. And then now we just get them randomly without warning, dropped on social media. Oh, by the way, we're going to have an update. You're getting three new games and like tomorrow. At some point that just isn't going to work. That isn't going to be good enough. We're talking now about games that are closer and closer to the relevancy still mattering. Literally, 3D All Stars was a big one of the big selling games for that was Mario 64. So like, clearly, the 64 games are closer and closer to the current generation playing Switch. So you can't just be like, Oh, yeah, randomly on a Tuesday in the middle of March, we decide to let you know that in a week, you'll be able to play more NSO games for N64, because that's exactly what they're going to do. They're not going to One thing that is a credit to the other companies, whether you enjoy the games they add with games for gold around PlayStation Network, is that you know, you're getting them every month, you know when they're going to be announced, and you know when they're going to release. Yeah, you know, the customers know they pay a subscription fee, and they know when they're getting stuff. We have no idea. We have no control. Right. I have a question. When did we get the news? We think there might be 38 because of the Yeah, one thing, but we don't actually know there's only ever been 21 on virtual console for N64 by the way, they've never gone beyond 21. But we never had Mandra Kazooie. So you can already presume there's going to be more than 21. Yeah. We'll see what's up. I've never seen I've never seen win back before. That's like, it's like a new thing for me. I hadn't not even heard about it until N64 online. So for those who don't know when back is a game that's on N64 online, it's like a shooting cop game. It's actually the mechanics seem pretty progressive for its time. But anyway, my question to you was about the news of the game no more N64 coming out this year. Like, when did that I just didn't see the actual article? Like, what was that? What was that from? Because I'm just kind of curious, like, Yeah, this was a story I saw last week and then I got hacked. So I didn't like, did Nintendo themselves confirm that? And if they did, what was the vibe we got? Like, is it do you think that was is it possible that maybe they have seen all the backlash and they're holding off on release some stuff until they work out some kinks first? Oh, one story we do know, by the way, guys, is the N64 controllers, that's not going to be resold this year. Nintendo has confirmed that to many outlets. It looks like that N64 controllers will not have any new stock till next year. So if you didn't get one in the initial rush, I'll see in six months, maybe I'll get some, maybe I'll get some then. Nintendo clearly was not ready for demand for that. But I wonder if demand for the controller was higher than the demand for the expansion because they do a little finicky, but they do work. Maybe. Technically, they saw someone playing Mario Kart 8 Deluxe with one. So they worked for some Switch games. I heard recently that there was a patch for the controller to work on 3D All-Stars. Yeah, well, because I mean, come on, Mario 64 is in there, why wouldn't it? You know, but it didn't. It didn't originally, you couldn't use it with it. So hopefully that they took that series and they patched it. I don't know, I don't own one. So I can't, am I going to go on and confirm any of that? Yeah, I don't see the story right this second. So I don't know, maybe it's fake news. I don't know, again, this was this was the last week and I had a lot of other stuff going on. I mean, I hope it's fake. I hope it's fake news for everyone's sake. But you know, if it isn't right, like, I hope. Okay, let's say it's not fake news. Let's say all the games they have already announced are going to come out this month, next month, January, February, right? We get all the games then. Tradition has shown us they're eventually going to stop and it's going to be like a long gap before we get born. That's at least what's happened with this and SNES. I don't know why it'd be different with N64. Genesis will see, Genesis is a little different because so many of those games have come out and re-released and re-released and re-released and emulated and re-released. I feel like those might have a really high chance of being pretty consistent. I also don't know if Nintendo is handling those directly, but it's possible that they're partnering with Sega. Obviously, and Sega is actually going to be managing a lot of that because they've already dealt with a lot of the emulation for it, but not always good emulation. By the way, there's been a number of these Sega classic sort of systems that have come out that have really bad emulation, but I think it'd be cool if they just, I know that they probably won't do this, but say they come out with a game or two every month and they print, after about a year or two, they pretty much go through the entire lineup, get most of the big releases out within the two years and then two years from now, they're like, all right, it's time for an update GameCube Online. That would be cool. And you wouldn't even have to come out with 20 games or anything like that. So, Andres, are you an expansion pack subscriber? I am. You are. So, you're the only one on the show that is subscribed to it? Has it been worth it to you? Yep. What have you been primarily doing? I've been playing The Rockering of Time and Dr. Mario and Echo of the Dolphin. I've also played a little bit of Castlevania. I've also played a little bit of Mario Kart. I played a little bit of Windback just to kind of test out a few games. I've been enjoying it really, like I like it. Do you not have any other way to play those games? So, I lost my N64 a while back. So, I do have a Wii U Virtual Console. I rather play things on my Switch Wii U. Yeah, it's portable. Obviously, it's just newer. Most of my games are all in one place. Also, the Wii U Virtual Console is slow to start up. And yeah, it's only one in-game individually. I have Ocarina of Time on my Wii U Virtual Console, and I have Mars 64. But I didn't have Mario Kart. I didn't have Dr. Mario. Then, I have Star Fox. Wii U is kind of a beast for Virtual Console. I mean, it is. In terms of the library, you can get almost everything on there. But it just slowed everything up. Well, yeah, I mean, in comparison to today's system, it's pretty slow. They weren't rocking the PCs and stuff. And then also, it's getting Sega Genesis stuff is cool. Like, playing through Echo the Dolphin, man, that game, the game is awesome. It's just like a weird, surreal sort of action-adventure. Well, the reason I have it is that, like, so a lot of the Sega games are already available on Switch with a $20, $50 game collection you can get. Yeah. Now, obviously, no online play or anything, but it is $20 and you own them. They don't go away when Nintendo decides not to support it anymore. The N64 games, obviously, a little hit and miss. We haven't really had an option to play them officially, legally, since the Wii U Virtual Console. And even then, again, only 21 games. And obviously, no online play. Online play is a big seller. Now, obviously, the emulation is actually not that great. The games also look better on the Switch. On the Switch compared to Wii U, they're using, they have, like, the same problems. So if, like, you play it awkward in time on Wii U, and you had issues with fog or issues with things that might have bothered you if you played the original, those same issues exist now, but that's... All right. Let me, can I talk about that? Sure. Because I've been playing through it. Like, I've put in hours into this game already. And then when I first saw people, like, bashing awkward in time, I was like, I don't know if it's that bad. Like, I had doubt. But I played it and I can't confirm there are issues. But I think there's... So, let me make myself clear. I am not saying that there are not issues. There are issues. And I am not saying that they should not be addressed. They should be addressed. I am hoping that Nintendo patches things. And I absolutely think that if people are not okay with what's going on, you should continue to talk about it. Continue the conversation. Because if we're vocal about it, Nintendo's more likely to change things, I think. I'm not saying they will, but it's more likely. Right? So I'm not against any of that. But at the same time, I feel like the negativity about this has been so strong and prevalent, it's suggested something far worse than it actually is. So I'm not saying it's great, but I'm also saying it's not unplayable. Like, I'm actually... I'm playing through on screen in time. I have noticed a number of little issues. But I'm still enjoying my playthrough of the game. Sure. Well, it doesn't make the games not great games. Yeah. Well, I think the thing is, like, when some people look at, well, like some of the conversation happening on social media, the interpretation by many is that the game is like straight up broken and playable. Yeah. There is a little misrepresentation, I think, by some people. What I will say is, and why my criticism isn't going to go away, is we pay for this, and I can play it better for free. And Nintendo's done it better, where you own the game on Wii. It was factually a better version, because they tailored each game specifically. They modified the engine specifically in their emulator to each game. So each game was running a custom emulator that gave you a very close to N64 experience, and technically, some games were better. I created enough time as an example. This is where people talk about input lag. The input lag, by the way, I played it on Switch. It's roughly the same as it was on the N64. So if you haven't played it since the N64, you're not going to notice any difference. The problem is, Nintendo gave us a better version on the Wii that had no input lag, or very minimal. It was like one or two... And there's also the Master... Going from that, like, a lot of people didn't buy Wii U. So they didn't experience the already worse version on Wii U. So they're jumping from, I was playing this on Wii, and I'm playing it on here, and whoa, this doesn't feel right. Of course it doesn't feel right, because the Wii version was factually better emulated. And I think that's where people run into problems here is, these N64 games, whether we like it or hate it, we can't ignore. If you just have a Chromebook, you can download an emulator and find a ROM for these games quite easily that will run them better than something you pay for with Nintendo. And I feel like that's where a lot of the criticisms are coming in, which by the way, not Nintendo's fault necessarily that you can get this stuff for free and get it quite easily, they're very much against doing that stuff. But at the same point, these emulators are free. Yeah, I'll tell you that I... I get what you're saying, but I also don't... I don't feel like for most people the ROMs run... I'm saying Nintendo should be able to do a higher standard than people doing this in their basement for no money. That mean that I agree with, I think there's certainly a lack... That's the problem I have, is Nintendo's emulation is worse than people that are just doing this for fun. There's... and I also heard... I haven't done the ghost stuff, the time trials in Marker 64. Yeah, for the record, Marker 64 I think plays fine, but apparently for the time trials, the ghost data... The time trial ghost mechanic doesn't work, yep. ...does not work. That's bad. And it didn't work on Wii U either, so... If this isn't a new issue, it's more of a people kind of expect you to fix it at this point. They didn't. People have already modified it on PC to fix it, so why can't Nintendo, like 10 years later, after starting... You know, it's one of those... It's one of those where I understand, I think for a general consumer, it's fine, but I also think that just because it's fine for general consumers... If you're an average consumer, you're not going to notice. So to me, I have very high standards. If I'm going to can do money for something I can actively do for free, knowingly do for free, easily do for free. And I'm going to pay you because I want to do it right. I don't want to do something illegal. I want... Because I don't have the N64 cards anymore. I'm not dumping them. I'm going to get the ROMs illegally. I don't want to do that. I want to do it legally. But when you offer me a worse experience when I pay you, than people who are doing this for nothing, it makes me feel like Nintendo's cheaping out. Because it runs on Chromebooks. We're not even talking about running on super hardcore hardware here with these emulators. These N64 emulators have been around since the 90s. So like, Switch is way more powerful than these emulators need. But by the way, you can hack your version one Switch and run better emulators than this gives on a hacked Switch. So like, the Switch is capable of doing better emulation. Nintendo has to provide it. And this has been kind of an issue I've had with Nintendo Switch Online this entire time with the NES, SNES. Now go ahead and then the N64 where it gets worse. Obviously, SNES and SNES are much easier to emulate. And I'm not saying there's any emulation issues with those specifically. But it's one of those... Nintendo is asking a premium price for things that aren't necessarily worth that premium price compared to what's available on the market today. You can go buy a SNES classic and a NES classic and get, at the time, almost more games than were available on Switch. Now, granted, you can argue it's a bit more expensive, but you will always have access to those games. For the rest of your life, as long as that system powers on, you will have access. Once we're off Switch, this is based on Nintendo's history, all these games we have now aren't going to be available because they're designed specifically for Switch's hardware. The moment they use a different architecture, a new chip, there's a high likelihood this stuff isn't just going to forward transfer and just be perfect. It's not going to be their day one. You're going to lose access to all of this when you move on to your next system because that's what happened with the Wii U. Now, technically, they literally put a Wii inside the Wii U to try to podge their way around it. But that, again, it wasn't, you know, you had... I'm actually optimistic that we're going to get this up in the next system. They didn't even give you those for free if you had the Wii ones. You still had to pay an extra fee on top. So my thing is, if I'm going to hand Nintendo money, I should expect them to at least match what people are doing for free. My thing is, is why don't they just find the person who made the damn emulations that are like fantastic out there and just go, here's a little bit of money, give me your emulator, and I'm going to use that. Because then Nintendo would be publicly supporting emulation. Nintendo's never going to use the word emulate. Well, I mean, we know it's running on an emulator, but they're never going to tell you it's running on an emulator. The issue is not them not having the capability of getting good emulator. They can absolutely do that. That is not the issue. 3D All-Stars is emulation. It's fine. It's great, actually, right? Yeah, but they customized everything to each game in that pack. Right. Like, they just need to do that. But they... And for the record, most of the games are actually... They're not doing it now. Not all the games are running poorly on this emulator, right? Like, most of the games are fine. Well, yeah. That's fine. Time, if you could argue, is the most important one. Isn't. And then also Mario Kart, which is really important. The fact that those two have issues, that's not okay. But just let me kind of describe it a little bit. Like, for those who didn't hear me talk about it on my stream a few days ago. Sure. Like, again, some people have asked me, oh, should I even bother playing this? Like, I've never played Ocarina of Time before. It's going to ruin my experience. I don't really think so. Like, if you don't know what to look for, you may not even realize. Like, the game is fine. I'm enjoying my experience. They're having a couple little things that I'm like, eh, weird. So, like, for example, let's say you're approaching the castle as a kid. There's this one part where you'll see, like, steps to kind of... Not steps, but like a rock wall to climb. So you'll see a wall and then the ground. But there's like a... Where the wall and the ground connect, you'll see like a sliver. Of where you can kind of see through the plane. Like, it's kind of... It kind of takes away from your suspension of this belief because like you can see that the world's not meeting flushly as it should. I've seen that occasionally playing through. And then also I noticed a bit of a shadowing issue in Jabu Jabu's belly when I was carrying Princess Ruto. Like, her shadow on mine when I was on an elevating platform. It was kind of like flickering, which was a little off-putting. But then once I got off the platform, it didn't happen anymore. So just kind of like subtle things occasionally seem like that. And there is a fog issue. You've heard about the fog issue, like... The fog is cool because it does have, like, an atmospheric look to it. Because the game is in HD, it's upscaled HD. So like, parts of the game actually... Most of the game actually looks better and nicer than what it used to. It's a lot sharper. Things seem to kind of pop more. So visually, the game looks nice. I think it actually looks better than what it looked like on Wii U Virtual Console. Like, it looks noticeably clean. Like, it looks nice. But you do notice some of these other issues as I've already brought up. And the fog's gone. Like, when you are in Kokiri's Forest, normally there's a fog blocking out the Deku Tree in the background. You can still see it a little bit, but it's a lot more like vague and ominous. But in this time around, you can just kind of see the entire canopy of the Deku Tree very clearly. And because it's in HD, you can see kind of like the square pixel-y like sort of leaves of the Deku Tree. And it just kind of shows like the age of the game more clearly because of that, because the fog is gone. So it's kind of weird there. I haven't gone into the Water Temple yet. I'm like right before it. I'm about to do the Ice Cavern, which gets you into the Water Temple. So I'm kind of curious how it's going to look there, but I'm assuming based on everything else I've seen that that's true, that there's just something off with the fog and that area. I'm curious to see if the water texture is actually different. That's going to be really, really weird to kind of look at if that's the case, but I'm assuming it is. So, you know, little things, but like if you don't even know what you're looking for, you're probably like, oh, this is fine. I would say the biggest issue for me is just occasionally I can kind of see through the environment. But by the way, if I remember correctly, that may have still happened sometimes even playing through the game initially. But I've noticed a little bit more often this time around. And then the shadow flickering kind of off-putting. But, you know, overall, the game is still fine. Most of the game runs fine. Even when you do see those things, it's not like the game's about to crash. It's not like it's chugging. It feels okay to me. And then the input lag doesn't really bother me. I mean, maybe it's because I played it like several times on Wii Virtual Console. So I'm used to the input lag already, but the game doesn't feel unplayable by any stretch. Because it's not an online game, it's not like you need it to have instantaneous, and be entirely instant. It feels fine. But definitely, you know, I wish the fog was better. Because this is arguably the greatest game of all time. It should be presented better. Got you. So what I'm kind of hearing you saying is it doesn't have the classic Nintendo polish that we've all come to know and expect. Where everything, you know, even like Breath of the Wild, everything was pretty well thought of. You know, they did this, they did that. It's all polished almost, you know, to pixel perfect almost to a certain extent. And, you know, a lot of Nintendo's games have that like nice polish. They think of almost everything. And it just kind of feels like these games were afterthoughts type of things where they didn't quite fully put in the 100% effort. They may have put in 85 to get the game out. Just didn't work type of thing. But they haven't fully waxed on waxed off type thing. Polished it. Yeah. I mean, I feel like they probably, I don't know who they had behind this emulation, but they must have had some small team. And yeah, the quality check on there was not significant. Like, because it doesn't feel like this was an internally developed project. You know, like most Nintendo games do have like that level of polish that they bring up. Like this, it feels like an entirely different department. This doesn't feel like the Nintendo developer like worked. This feels like they just got some outside company to do this. And it's so I got great. This might be part of what my anger comes from too, is I got privy some information about how Nintendo put this together and what they used to do. And there was a guy named Tim. I'm not going to get into the full story behind Tim, but he was the one who handled literally every single game emulated on Wii Virtual Console. He was the one who really pushed for emulation. He actually handled the original emulation of Ocarina of Time and Master Quest on the GameCube. So that's how far back he went with Nintendo. He left Nintendo in 2011 right before Wii U came out. So hence why there's a massive difference in emulation between the two systems. And he was the one that customized the emulator to literally everything when he basically did it on his own. He customized the emulator that his team, an internal team at Nintendo developed, to every single game to work on that specific hardware better than it even worked on the N64 at the time. And that was all fine. And that's why there was hardly any complaints about any of this stuff back in the Wii days. One, the first time we ever had it, so we're just happy to have it. Two, it ran so well. There was hardly any complaints. The biggest complaints were some of the price points Nintendo was charging for some games just felt kind of a little bit out of touch with what those games might be worth today. But Nintendo has always kind of been that way with pricing. Or for the most part been that way. There are some games I feel like they launch and do price correctly. But then you get into, you know, he leads, moves on to a different company. And that same internal team is still there. And they're still the ones handling all the emulation. It's still handled in-house at Nintendo. But they no longer have the person at the top that cares about the quality of that emulation. And so when Nintendo does their checking on it, they go, does it play? Yes. Can you finish the game? Yes. Does the online work? Yes. Check, check, check. Good to go. And that's all they care about. Nintendo decided to spend less money focusing on each individual game. And it said make a generalized emulator that they could just use for everything. And if there's any major issues, we'll worry about it later and try to patch it. Which by the way, I'm not saying any of these issues are actually major besides the ghost thing in Mario Kart, which by the way, has been around for a while with their emulation should be fixed by now. It's not. I don't understand how they haven't gotten it fixed at this point. People literally have already fixed it with PC emulators decades ago. Still causes issue with some emulators, but a lot of them have already patched it and made it work. The Ocarina Time thing bothers me more just because when they announced, sorry, but I didn't mean to cut you off, but this is just a quick little thing. It's just the Ocarina Time thing bothers me even more because when they unveiled N64 online, the first title they show off is Ocarina Time. Yeah. Right. It's their headliner is my point. Yeah. If you can't headline N64, we already have that, technically. Right. So they headline Ocarina Time and there's tons of Zelda. There's a huge Zelda fan base now. Yeah. So you do this and then what we get is in some ways, it's nice because it's upscaled to HD, right? Sure. And you want to play on a pro controller is nice, but all these graphical, when you consider all these little glitches, it's arguably the worst version of Ocarina Time you ever got. But to your point, most people aren't even going to know their glitches or know anything's wrong because... To the casual person, they'll just think what's Ocarina Time. I would say Breath of the Wild sold 25 million or something at this point. We don't have the updated figures till tomorrow. But Breath of the Wild sold 23 million, 25 million if we include with you. Bottom line is, there is a crap load of people that have never played any other Zelda game before who are going to play this for their first time. And to them, they're not going to know there's anything wrong. Like this is the point where I say the emulation is what I would say good enough for your average Nintendo Switch consumer who doesn't know any better. I just don't think that's acceptable. We shouldn't just accept Nintendo being good enough for the average consumer when we are paying them for something that other people for free do better. That's always going to be my stance that if people are willing to do it for free better then Nintendo should be doing like one of my major criticisms of Nintendo Switch Online. Voice Chat in an app. Why does Fortnite have better communication both in-game chat and in-game voice chat than any Nintendo game? And I pay for the access to that. Fortnite I don't. And this is because the Nintendo stance of wanting to do things different thinking they knew a better way, wanting to break from the norm, doing what Nintendo does, which by the way helped lead to Switch being a system anyways, helped led to the motion controls with Wii. Well, you could argue the failure of successive consoles and selling less and less might have led to Wii. But either way, whatever drives Nintendo to make the decisions they do, it's frustrating when they're charging you money for something that you could just get elsewhere. And I know a lot of people have told me, by the way, when I've complained, well then just go play the games there. And that's fine, I'm not a subscriber. I'm not giving them money for subpar. It's just not happening. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is if you have a family membership and everybody wants the Animal Crossing DLC. It's legitimately a super cheap way to get everybody the Animal Crossing DLC if they all have the game. It just is. It's a really cheap way to get eight people that DLC because it would take a number of years before you could have bought that DLC individually for each person for you to end up wasting that money. And by the time that you reach that four or five years down the road where it would line up or if you just bought it for everyone individually, you might not be playing the game anymore. So that is kind of a good deal. But for that specific reason, not had nothing to do with N64 or Genesis. Which by the way, I am so thrilled that you and several other people I've talked to are having a blast with these games. Classic games are amazing. And I'm super glad that people are starting to enjoy and play games they've maybe never played before. Especially Nintendo fans. A lot of them skipped a lot of these Genesis games because of the whole console wars back then. So this is really cool to see people enjoying this stuff. And I'm so happy that they are. We're getting excited. But I just, I feel like and maybe a whole huge chunk of the internet feels this way too. By the way, the internet is a small minuscule thing compared to the whole of it's a local minority. There's many people that own switches or whatever. Okay, us making it the most dislike video of all time at like 150,000 dislikes. That's cool. There's 90 plus million people who own Switch. It's nothing to Nintendo. But the thing is, to me, like my kids aren't going to care, right? My kids don't care about this. I mean, it's not a good look because you know, some people are going to look up N64 online and they take a look at the overview of the dislikes. Because of what I do and because of who I am, I hold Nintendo. This is like where people talk about how you're not critical of Nintendo. No, I hold them to higher standards than pretty much everyone who owns a Switch because I expect better. If I'm going to give you money, I expect you to deliver something that's better than something I get for free. That's my biggest problem with the voice chat. That's my biggest problem with how they've handled these online games. Like, all of this stuff, I can go on Amazon right now, spend 40 bucks, get a little Android device sent to me that has better emulation and has 7,000 games across platforms going all the way up to PlayStation 1 that work mostly flawlessly for $40. And I own that. And no one can take that away from me until the system breaks. You can, by the way, you can purchase this legally. Not saying it's legal for that company to be selling that. I guarantee they did not get the rights for all those ROMs, but they're widely available on Amazon. So forget even free emulation. This is, you're paying money for it and you own it and it's better and you get more. And this is where it's like, when you look to who should have the best versions of their games, the company that made them. And when that's not the case, I can't justify spending a dollar on this service. The only reason I even have Nintendo Switch online service at all, the year membership, is just so I can play online matches with people on YouTube and my fan base. Which I don't even do that often, but when I do, it's cool that I have it and I don't have to think about it. Don't have to worry about it. But you get cloud saves. You know. But even then, I don't agree that the thing should be behind a paywall. I think it's ridiculous that it's behind a paywall. But I also think the same thing about Xbox and PlayStation as well. This is a general criticism. The console is charging money for the play games online. I think it's just stupid. I already pay money for online. It's called my internet bill. Thanks. I play games for free online on my PC all the time. You don't have to profit off me. The internet company already gets plenty. I'm paying to access my own internet. It feels kind of dumb. But that's a general complaint and something that, unfortunately, if you want to play these console games, you have to do online. And you could argue if you want to play these N64 games online. Unfortunately, this is something that you have to pay for. And I totally get that. But I also just... It's never going to be okay to me that Nintendo is providing me the worst versions of their own games. It's just not... I can't wrap my mind that Nintendo thinks this is okay. And know why they do, by the way. Nintendo is nobody's friends. None of these companies are, guys. Like, they're all for-profit businesses. They're just trying to make as much money as they can for as cheap as they can. Yeah. Like, that's just the way it is. They didn't delay Breath of the Wild to switch because we was failing to delay Breath of the Wild to switch because it's the most expensive game they've ever made, and there's no way in hell they're going to put it on a platform that nobody bought. Like, they're not dumb. They spent a shitload of money on a game. They're not going to send it out to die. They already tried that with Skyward Sword thinking, oh, there's still enough wheeze in the market, but we didn't matter at that time anymore. They already announced their next-gen system. They sent it out to die. Like I said, we didn't matter. Skyward Sword was an expensive game for them at the time. We at the WV. So I just, I'm never going to be okay with it, and I don't think there's anyone that can convince me otherwise. I think for general consumers, we don't give a shit. They're not watching my channel anyway, so hey, kudos to you guys. The people that watch my channel, I would say are probably the more hardcore Nintendo faithful out there. But I hope, by the way, you guys don't participate in console wars and all that. I know that's a thing. I hate it. But I would hope that all of you guys can sort of agree to a certain extent that, hey, if we're going to give Nintendo our money, they should at least give us something better than... I'm two clicks away from doing it for free. Probably, you could do it on my iPhone too. The best way to... A little more than two clicks, though, to do it on my iPhone. The best way to stop emulation is to make a better version of it. Well, like the number one argument against like Nintendo has a number of things, lawsuits and things going on, and being pissy about emulation and ROMs and all that. And people that love game preservation, and who cares? I bought a copy of Mario Party Superstar, so who cares if I download a little bit of ROM and I'm playing it on an emulator? Look, you guys make your own personal choices. I'm not here to make those choices for you. Everyone's allowed to make your own choices. Free world, free country. Well, not free for everybody, but free at least in the United States. Make your choices. You're probably not going to get in trouble. It is what it is. If you're not distributing, distributors get in trouble a lot. People downloading usually don't. So go ahead and make your choices. And even if I hate some of those choices, like I'm not going to download any new switch game ROM and play it on an emulator. I'm not going to do that. I don't have Mario Party Superstars right now because my bank's locked up, so I'll get it eventually. But I'll wait. My thing is it's like anything. If I give a company money, I don't think it's asking a lot to expect near perfection, especially for games that have been out for like almost 30 years. We're not talking about like, oh, Breath of the Wild came out and we had some on Switch. There were some issues. We talked about the polish before, Kokiri Forest was a problem. It dropped down into the teens in FPS. That's a problem on Switch. They did patch it. But also, this is a brand new experience I've never experienced before. We're talking about games that they've been around for 30 years. They've been sitting on computers forever. The emulators have existed forever. Yeah, Nintendo could use better emulators. They're never going to use publicly available ones. That's just not who they are because they're not going to support that. But if you're going to develop internal ones and you're going to release a limited library, by the way, how many N64 games are there? What, eight? At launch? Nine? It's not even 10. I know it's in the single digits. You can't get those right. And then we're supposed to think, oh, they'll patch it up and fix it later. Well, do you want new games? Because they're not doing both. The team's small. You're getting one or you're getting the other? You either get new games or you're getting fixes to the current. And they're not going to fix the current. They didn't fix them on Wii U. They're not going to fix them now. They don't care. They care that people spend their money. And that's fine. That's what all companies care about. I just, I'm always going to hold them to a standard that maybe some people think is unfair. I don't think it's unfair that the richest company in Japan gives me the best emulation possible for their own video games. I think that's reasonable when I'm going to hand them 30 bucks a year. Can I give me? I think for that specifically, you know, yeah, I agree that it should be better. I hope it gets better. I also still enjoy it for what it is, but I also got the family plan. Yeah, as I said, in general, none of these games are unplayable. And that's fine. Nintendo's never going to release an unplayable game. Most of them are actually fine. It's specifically awkward in time that's the biggest issue. They technically, every single one of them has like a small minor thing. It's just how much do people care about it? Yeah. But I want to kind of just go a little bit back because you mentioned, this is me nitpicking, but you mentioned that like it, you know, Breath of the Wild had the Kokiri Force frame rate issue, which is totally true. But like, I don't, I just think that like, I'm not saying, I know you love Breath of the Wild, right? But like, Yeah, it's my favorite game of all time. Perfection, though, I would argue is unreasonable to expect. Now, let me fully explain, because the reason why is is there's actually no such thing as perfection. Like that's a fact. There's literally nothing out there. I'm pretty sure I can perfectly emulate NHD and 4K and 60 FPS on my computer for free right now, Ocarina of Time. Ocarina of Time, right? And every other N64 game in existence. I'm just talking about games, you know, just as a whole, right? I'm not talking about performance, necessarily alone. I'm just talking about games as a whole. There's no, there's no, there's no, like what I say, Breath of the Wild is my favorite game of all time. It's a 10. It's amazing. I might even throw out the word perfect sometimes. But honestly, oh, I can find things to criticize. Nothing's perfect. Yeah. But that's also be like, Yeah, I can criticize Ocarina of Time. It's not a perfect game of fact. It's not even on my 10-10 Zelda games. I can easily criticize Ocarina of Time. But I'm not criticizing the games. I'm criticizing the emulation. The emulation that is perfect. Not even the emulation. Elsewhere if I put in. Yeah, the effort. I'm criticizing Nintendo's, let's just, I'm gonna throw it out there. Nintendo's laziness and unwillingness to do better. They think this is fine. And as long as people keep shelling out money for it, it's gonna continue to be this way. Like Nintendo doesn't have an incentive to do it better if people not only speak with their wallets, but also make a huge hubbub about it online and be like, hey, we're not okay with this. This is not what you're doing. You need to do better. I'll tell you this. But again, they're not gonna care because again, most people online aren't the people buying it. Two things. Two things. I just wanted to speak about Breath of the Wild. It has a frame rate issue, but Breath of the Wild is still has way more polish than pretty much any open world game that came up before it. Like buy a long shot, right? I don't know about that. Yes, I'll challenge you there. You'll challenge that. So you don't think the Wind Waker had the same amount of polish? The original Wind Waker would say it's an actual open world game. What? It simulated an open world experience, but Breath of the Wild is like an actual massive open world game. Open world games in general. How did the Wind Waker simulate an open world experience when you could sail anywhere? That was a trick. Seriously, you could sail everywhere. It opens up after that little beginning area for Dragon Roost and when does Breath of the Wild open up after you complete the tutorial area in the Four Shines? It's the same thing. It opens up. It's just a different type of open world because a lot of it is sea versus land. Compared to just we're talking, we'll just talk about modern open world games. Glitches and little issues because of so huge there's so much going on in them. Yeah. There are things to be found. Breath of the Wild compared to most other open world games, it's far more polished. Like there's a significant amount of polish in comparison. That's saying, again, there's always things to be on. Give me an example of a game that's not as polished. Any Bethesda game known to man. Okay. Which have huge, huge teams, hundreds of people, half decades of development time, sometimes more like, yeah. Okay. Anything besides Bethesda? That sounds like just a company-wide issue. Which, by the way, Bethesda does have a company-wide issue with their engine they use on everything and bugs they haven't fixed ever for some ungodly reason. I have no idea why. But Bethesda is well known that their engine, I don't know what the hell's, it's been like 20 years Bethesda. Patch your engine already or use something new. I, anyways, that's, I'm frustrated with them too with their games. Because I think you're like, oh, open world games like, okay, yeah. You could say like Cyberpunk 2077. Terrible. Horrid. Worst polish game ever. Like is there even polish in that game? I don't even know. It's not even, it wasn't even a complete video game when it came out. So like, okay, yeah. Perfect example that supports your case. But then I think, yeah, but the Witcher 3 was pretty perfect at launch. Was it? I didn't play it the perfect game to end. But in terms of its polish level and everything. Yeah, it wasn't game-making bugs weren't there. It was very well polished. And then I think about, you know, that's modern open world, right? Like your point with the Winmaker was that's not a modern open world game. And obviously we're talking about a game from the GameCube. Of course, that's not a modern open world game. So Birdman said by saying that that Witcher 3 was worse at release in Breath of War. Is there a way for the Nintendo Switch Online expansion pack to fail? Says Doggy. Thank you, by the way, for re-opening your membership. Is there a way for it to fail? I mean, the only way is people don't buy it. But here's the thing. That actually speaks to me. Here's the problem with, and this is something I know in the back of my mind. Here's the problem. What's Nintendo's messaging going to be if they thought N64 was going to add, let's say, 15 million more subscribers, and instead it only adds a million? Okay, let's say they don't get the number boost they want, which I think they're going to get it anyways. But let's say they don't. So a failure to Nintendo would be, we didn't gain new subscribers. We may be converting some current ones to a higher tier, but we're not growing NSO like we want. The whole point of adding these consoles for Nintendo is to grow NSO. So let's say NSO isn't growing. That's Nintendo's worst case scenario. That would be a failure to them. But what's Nintendo's outlook going to be based on the history of Nintendo when something doesn't sell? Oh, people don't want these things. And then they just won't give it to us anymore. That's how, that's my fear is if like people don't buy it, it's not going to be, oh, let's do it better. It's going to be, oh, people don't care about these games. So we're not, you know, we spent all this money. We got all these licensing rights for all these third party games coming to Sega. And we did all this work and all this legwork and invest a little money thinking we were going to make hand over fist money in return. We didn't, it didn't grow NSO. Man, people really don't care about the, they really only want to buy the nostalgic classic systems so it could sit on a shelf in their house. People don't actually want to play the games. Cool, we're just not going to give you retro games anymore. That's honestly, based on Nintendo's history, how they react when things don't sell. Oh, Federation Forces and not selling. Yeah, we're just not going to make Metroid. Other M-Pan, we're just not going to make Metroid games for a while. Just the way it's going to be, we're just going to be done for a while. We're not, we're not touching the IP for a while. People don't want to buy it. Oh, if Fire Emblem Awakening doesn't sell well, guess what, we're done making Fire Emblem games. Oh, look, it sold well because the fans rallied and it ended up being a really good game and now Fire Emblem's a big staple for Nintendo. But Nintendo has a history of zero. The last F-Zero game, unfortunately, did not sell very well. Notice how we haven't had one since? Yeah, that's true. Like this is what Nintendo does when things don't sell. Federation Forces came out in 2015. There's not really, like when I criticize and say, oh, we just speak with our wallets, I mean, there is that fundamental issue that Nintendo's not going to get the right messaging from it because they just look at pocketbooks and go, fine, it's not worth the effort. Yeah, I'll say that for Metroid though, Federation Forces came out in 2015. Yeah, and then we got Samus Returns a little bit later. In 2017, and they also confirmed, they announced Prime 4 in 2017 as well. So it wasn't, I think when people talk about it, Federation Force, that issue was not with Metroid. I think they understood the issue with Federation Force. So they didn't give up on Metroid because of Federation Force. Well, the problem was, though, here's the issue they said. When Other M flopped, Nintendo didn't really use the word flop, but they used a term that suggested it did not meet expectations. They publicly stated they were going to put Metroid on the shelf. They, that's their own words. Nintendo publicly said for, It wasn't even just Other M though. It was Other Prime 3. And then, on then, they did really put it on the shelf. They came back with Federation Force, which is, okay, if your normal Metroid games aren't selling, you think a spin-off's gonna sell? It was kind of like a baffling decision and really upset a lot of people, which is why that's now their second, most unlike trailer of all time Federation Force. By the way, Federation Force is actually a good game. No one wants to admit it for some reason, but it's actually a good game. Go play it with some friends. If it had good online. Like, play Prime Hunters. Like, these games are fun. I just had a squeeze playing. Clive Force Heroes, it's fun. Get some friends together. These aren't bad games. My problem with Federation Force is that playing online didn't work. Yeah. Every game I played, my friend would crash. People wanted more. It doesn't go up experience, and it just didn't, all my missions would crash. So like, I just couldn't play it. Is there a way to give Nintendo feedback? Says Doggy. The only feedback you can give them, really, is when they ask for it. They don't really pay attention. At least Nintendo's aware of the backlash. Reggie has been on a couple of podcasts, and he's noted that when he worked at Nintendo of America, when he stated publicly that they don't listen to fan feedback, they literally don't listen to fan feed feedback. They only care when it's something Nintendo specifically puts out. Like, the Super Smash Bros poll, to figure out what characters that. They did pay attention to that because they asked for that information. When they send you polls through my Nintendo or surveys, they do, they are looking for feedback. They will consider that feedback. Now, will they consider your individual feedback versus everybody else's? No, it'll have to be like a more general consensus from all of the feedback they get. It won't be one specific message. But Nintendo doesn't really care as long as they're making money. That's kind of the sneaky thing about all businesses. Amazon got a bunch of backlash for the way that they treated employees in warehouses and not letting them have bathroom breaks and factually having news outlets report on poop bags hidden in aisles and stuff like this because they couldn't go to the bathroom. And yet, Amazon stock went down for like a day. People didn't stop using Amazon. Nobody cares as long as you're making money. And that's where Nintendo is right now, most profitable company in all of Japan at the moment. So, let's kind of move on from this. I think we're just going to start going in circles. You got one thing you want to do? One point. With that, I'll tell you that right now, I'm optimistic that the library is going to be something satisfying to me. So, I'm taking advantage of the family plan so it's not really that expensive for me. So I'm good. But I'll tell you also, I am struggling getting people to get onto my family. Not as many people are jumping onto it as much as I thought. So, it's not vibing with a lot of people. So that may mean I may be paying a higher price than I anticipated. But also, if Nintendo fails to continually update the content here, I may drop the expansion pack come next year or the year after. If I'm like, yeah, I don't need to spend this money. I got my fill of these games. I'll just, if I want them back, I'll either just collect them in real life. The actual N64 versions, I get some sort of cool HDMI upscaler for it, which would be expensive. But I'll be getting it for more collector's reason. And then I'll just go down to the normal service. Even though I bought this first year, it's on Nintendo to maintain subscribers for this. And I do feel like they're not doing a great... Like if they want this to become more lucrative in their current setup, I don't think they're headed in a good direction. I think they need to make some serious changes. One, maybe a price cut. And if not a price cut, do something to make it feel more compelling. I announced that more regular DLC patch the emulation. Make it a quality emulation. Give us more options with the app. Like maybe we could change around the... Just that weird sort of like border that has the icon on. You know, just that it needs more quality of life additions. Hopefully it's something that they actually like build on. Like if they're getting this much extra money from a subscription service, hopefully it's something that they're more actively working on to improve. So it gets better. Maybe it's not amazing right now, but they build on it and make it better. That's kind of like the best we can hope for right now. Cool. So our last topic was actually supposed to be you bring a topic to the table. So you got something for us? Pulling it off the top of my head. So like, I don't know which one to pick. There's a lot of good ones that make your own show too this weekend. I got a lot. Well, I'll tell you this. I was sort of talking about this on my podcast last Sunday, but like I could have gone further. We just stopped because of time. But on the note of time and me looking at the Deku Tree, and because we've been talking about Ocarina Time already, I'm kind of curious on your thoughts on what if Nintendo were to go back to Ocarina Time someday, right? Like you look at this emulation and it's not even like a quality. Like yeah, it's not even like a quality emulation, right? And like, I know, I mean, your friends with Game Over Jesse, right? And Game Over Jesse has been talking, he's heard that there's an Ocarina Time HD in the works, right? And I haven't double checked. Maybe it was for this, for this emulation, but maybe it's not, right? Like what if there is something else? And I'm not saying for sure it is, but what if, right? Like what if there is like an Ocarina Time project that they're working on, right? Like what if Nintendo right now is finalizing Breath of the Wild 2? And the next thing is to not remake, re-imagine Ocarina of Time. Like if there's ever a game that Nintendo goes back to and re-imagines it, similar to what they did with Final Fantasy VII Remake. I said similar, not the same, because I know some people have some problems with VII Remake. Nintendo would do it better, I hope. But what if they were to go back, re-assess that game, and modernize it significantly, like restructure it, add more content, tell a slightly different narrative. And some of you may jump at the idea, why would you change the story for Ocarina of Time? Well, actually, because they need to. Because Ocarina of Time causes a three-way timeline split, and it technically only explains two, not the third. There is nothing in Ocarina of Time that explains why there is the fallen hero timeline. Imagine if they were to go back to Ocarina of Time, re-imagine it with modern-day visuals, maybe give us a light temple dungeon because we were just given the light medallion. There's no actual dungeon for that one. What happened? It feels like cut content. Throw us into a new dungeon, add more side quests, maybe fill up the other half of the map that has nothing there, because there's the right side of the map that has towns, and there's the left side that just has a desert. Like, it's just weird. Just to make it a more cohesive world, there's a lot of really cool characters in there. Build that up, and maybe also answer the question to the fallen hero timeline. Put something in there for that. I think it would be amazing. And it could be like a project between major Zelda games. I mean, it would be cool. I mean, Ocarina of Time is the game that may be falling in love with the Zelda series, but for me, personally, it ranks pretty far down the list of the games that I want to see this happen to, but I understand it's important, so I know it's popularity, and with Zelda being more popular than ever, it's kind of a great time to do it. Now, I don't agree that we need to change the story to explain the fallen hero timeline, because the whole point of it is that you're dead, and you can't play the game when you're dead. So that's the explanation. It's a weak explanation, by the way, but that's the official explanation. That's why it's called the Fallen Hero Timeline, because you fell, you died, you failed. It wasn't just that you failed and you lived, you died. You killed you. You died somewhere in your adventure, which by the way, when it comes to the way that, when they brought up the fact that that can create a split, I mean, then you can split off any game, because you can die in any game, so that it was kind of a weird explanation. But also, that's the official explanation, and it does technically make sense. It's just, it also means every game's a split. They just haven't had something happen on the split yet. But it's a messy thing, and I understand wanting a better explanation for it. But also, it's called the Fallen Hero Timeline, because you die. You can't play the game if you die. Now you could say you could play the game. It just changes perspectives. Maybe you become Zelda, or some other character that lives past when Link would die. And then you suddenly have a three-way ending of sorts, which isn't really a three-way ending, because technically there's only one ending, but it's understood because of the time travel mechanics, why there's a split, even though you only ever see the end to one of those splits, sort of, because you also get sent back in time. So you kind of see both endings. It's weird, right? It's a weird thing, but it makes a little bit of sense, because there's so much damn time travel in that game, which you could argue every time you time travel to the past and then back to the present. Yeah, depending on how time works. Right? And every time you die. It's like infinite time loops. So it's like, it's really weird, but whatever. Nintendo chose not to use that explanation and said, nope, Link died, and this is what happens then. Like, okay, well, I mean, technically Link wasn't around for seven years and we saw what happened to that. Okay, I don't, okay, sure. That's what the explanation I want to use. Sure, it's possible. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's kind of weak, but technically it does make sense. I'm not so sure we need more of that. I understand that they don't have to do it. Yeah, they don't have to, yeah, yeah. They're in a position where they can just let it be. To expand upon it and give us more. But the point is that there's material, right? There's material for it. I don't think they're gonna do it, by the way. Like, I think it's possible they could quote-unquote remake the game. Don't know how, don't know what they're gonna do. I think it's plausible then. But it's possible they could remake it. I just don't think they're reimagining anything. Like Final Fantasy VII remake is, it's a remake, but it's almost a reimagined remake. There's additional things that never happened in the original game. The base plot is still there, of course. And I don't like that it's split up over all these things. I understand they added so much to the game and that's why there's, no, they're splitting it up because it makes them the most money. That's just reality. They could literally just wait and take 12 years to make this game like they did with Shadow of the Colossus and call it, or not the sequel, The Last Guardian and just call it a day. But they don't, they want to maximize profits. And so they release it in parts, they release it as they finish sections. It is what it is, right? People seem to be mostly fine with it that are enjoying it. So more power to them. I'm personally going to wait until the whole thing is complete and they end up repackaging it for just 70 bucks on PlayStation 5 at some point because that's going to happen. Yeah. So I'm just going to wait until it's all done and then I'll play Start to Finish and be good. Let me throw an idea out for you. Just with a hundred of time, it's such a classic. And Final Fantasy VII was too. That I feel like the way Nintendo does things, like you look at like the definitive edition of Xenoblade or you look at anything they've done, even like the Wind Waker HD, which I feel like they had real work put into it in comparison to like Twilight Princess HD is more like a texture up res pack that you, you know what I mean? They added, they eliminated some of the Twilight, they added a couple things and they eliminated some of the tedium of it. But people have done that with mods and emulators. So like, it kind of felt like, okay, yeah, almost anyone can kind of throw down that. I always felt like they need that. The Wind Waker had a whole new lighting system. They redid almost the character models. They literally got rid of the tingle tuner and replaced it with a completely different mechanic, which is cool as those tingle bottles are. Dude, you got rid of the story of tingle. Damn it. Come on. We literally had a gamepad. Come on now. You didn't need to get rid of tingle story. Anyways, it is what it is. I wish they would have reincorporated it in a different way if they didn't want it because it was based on a GBA connection. Which by the way, I don't think most people that play Wind Waker even know tingle story because how many of you actually used the tingle tuner and did the tingle tuner side quest? Most people didn't. Anything that involved GBA connectivity, I don't think most people did. We did for some games. But I did for Wind Waker, but most people didn't. Most people didn't have either have a GBA and have it or have the connection cable or care or even know. Like if you don't even go down to tingle's little jail, you don't even know. You just skip the whole thing. So I think that I want Nintendo to do as you describe, and it's fun to dream. It's like a pipe dream. Yeah. But then again, Breath of the Wild was a pipe dream to me. I never thought they'd make a Zelda game like that. I always hoped they would. It was kind of like this that would Zelda could have been if they would have stuck with Open World after Zelda 2, but they didn't. So like, it's fine. Zelda still became something that was great. I mean, if you play Ocarina of Time, you feel like that was their attempt at an Open World with the technology they had at the time, right? Like, could they have done more? There was actual Open World games on the N64, like true Open World. So I don't think that was it. All Ocarina of Time was was A Link to the Past in 3D. People don't want to talk about that or admit to it, but it's literally look at the structure, look at how the world was set up, look at how the story's even set up. It's essentially 3D A Link to the Past. Took me a while to figure that out. Give me an example of an Open World game that Ocarina of Time for happened in. Give me an example of an Open World game in the N64 era that was good. Do you have an example of one? Do you have an example of a good Open World game during the N64 era? Like, my point is, yes, they could have technically created a world that had seamless sort of loading, but there would have been limitations with that. Like, I think they did a pretty good job with Ocarina of Time for the time, right? I think the natural progression for Zelda was always to go up, but at the time, that's kind of what the best approximation that they should have done. Well, I understand this. Just having areas that you load into. If we got Open World games on the NES, I don't think there's an excuse on more powerful hardware to not have Open World games. Well, the difference though is this. When they made A Link to the Past, because the Link to the Past is when they got rid of... The Link to the Past and Link's Awakening kind of like were when they stopped the Open World stuff. They made a more linear, story-based experience. So that's just, that's the way it was. Zelda II, Zelda I, you got most your story in the pamphlets. There wasn't a ton of story in the game, which allowed them to be a heck of a lot of freedom, which some people prefer story, by the way, and that's totally fine. So, Zelda I and Zelda II were more open because they didn't really give you much in the game for the story. You just kind of figured it out as you went. Breath of the Wild, by the way, wasn't the number one complaints about it. Oh, the story is so scattered and this and that. Yeah, because that's how Open World games typically work. They don't necessarily work. Arcade time does have some freedom though. You can use the dungeons a little bit out of order. Not entirely, but you can do them a little bit out of order. Yeah, okay, put it this way. You can do the dungeons out of order in the Link to the Past, but it heavily pushes you to a suggested order. It's not intended to be done out of order. Just like in Arcade of Time, you can do all the dungeons out of order. It's not intended to be done out of order. You can do it. It's not meant to be that way. Zelda 2 and Zelda 1, don't tell you where to go or what to do. You can literally go to the final dungeon right away and not even realize you're at the final dungeon. Like that is how, well, technically, you can't do that in Zelda 1. There's one specific item you need to get there, but anyways, the point is all the other dungeons you can, and it's not because the game told you to go here. This is where such and such happen. There's a guiding that guides you to a certain way to do things. Like in Breath of the Wild, here's the crazy thing about Breath of the Wild. There is guidance, right? It says, go to Kakariko Village, right? But what's the first thing it tells you before that? Go beat that bad guy in the castle. Go, go beat him, go do it. Oh, but by the way, someone wants to talk to you in Kakariko Village, but go beat that guy. And what can you do? You can just literally go to him and beat him. Now, it's difficult. It's a challenge. It can be done. Thousands of people have done it. I don't know if it's been millions, but thousands of people have proven you can just go right to the boss right away, which is what the game tells you to do. Right before it tells you, also by the way, someone wants to talk to you in Kakariko Village. So there's a guiding hand in Breath of the Wild to Kakariko Village. And there's kind of a guiding hand from that point forward where it says, okay, now that you're here, maybe go visit the Zoras. There might be something going on there. Maybe go to Death Mountain. So there's a little guidance there, but it starts with a premise. No, go kill that thing. Now go do it. And then you might find out by going there, oh crap, let me get my ass kicked. Maybe I should go check out this Kakariko Village thing. That's what happened to me my first play through. I literally be lined into the castle, got my ass kicked. I'm like, yeah, man. Yeah, it's fun. Maybe I should go check out Kakariko Village. I know you told me to go kick his ass. I don't think I can kick his ass right now. So going back to my idea though, because you're bringing up the distinction between old and linear Zelda games. Because we do have this open style. If they were to re-imagine Akari of Time after Breath of the Wild 2, as like an in-between between before we get the next big open air Zelda, it could be an opportunity to sort of harken back to more of that linearity. And I'm not saying that if they were to do it, so they should not make it a little bit more open. Like I think it should be an opening of Akari of Time, but still present it in a semi-linear way as it already is. But still add more to it, obviously. Half the map has nothing. Don't you think it's weird? Like when you play Akari of Time, like the entire Northwestern part of the map, there's nothing there. And we know in future Zelda games, that's the Hebrew region, right? Like there's a snow area. What if there was a snow area? And again, the light temple, there's just no dungeon. Like why? You just given a medallion for nothing. It's like, hey, congratulations. You picked up the Akari and you played a song. You're done. Like, you know, it'd be, I feel like there could have been a dungeon there. Like they should have been like, all right, now that you're an adult, let's test out your new powers. Let's test out how strong you are. Let's see if you know your body well. I think it'd be really cool. I just don't think I'm gonna do it. Because I think any original ideas they have like that, they'll just say, we'll put it in the new Zelda game. Yeah. See, the problem Final Fantasy has, and why they kind of got away with what they're doing in Final Fantasy VII, is they haven't exactly had the greatest of sales with their last like five Final Fantasy games. They've all kind of undersold what they wanted at the cell for how much money they put into it. So they went back to their past and said everybody loves Final Fantasy VII. So let's just do that. And let's put our ideas into that. Whereas Zelda's went popular today than ever with Breath of the Wild and Breath of the Wild II, I don't see them thinking, let's go back to Akari out of time and put some of our new white fresh ideas in there versus a game that we could just make a new version of that everybody universally loves, make a third one, and sell 20 million of that on a brand new system. Akari out of time is amazing. But also, it didn't even sell half. Actually, it probably sold less than a third of what Breath of the Wild did. So like, I don't know the interest is there from Nintendo to be like, but let's just rebuild. I think an HD version might exist someday. Maybe, but I think it's going to be more along, you know, they just HDFIed the 3DS version. Like they did with Metopia. More so than like actually, like if you just look at Nintendo's history, they've never done this. And there's no reason to think that they would do this. It's a big money investment for something that they don't know is going to actually sell. They know. They can say we can put 200 million dollars in the Breath of the Wild II, which I don't think they did put 200 million or two, because they already have the engine built. So let's say they can justify whatever budget they want, because Breath of the Wild massively outsold their expectations. So they have a huge budget, they could throw it to knowing, hey, it might not hit 25 million, but it's a pretty safe bet. This thing's going to sell 10 to 15 million copies. So from my perspective, if they were to do this, and again, I agree, like I'm presenting this as a fun idea. Yeah, I know. You know, I don't want this to happen, by the way, I would just have the Majora's Mask as well. I want this to basically happen to every classic Zelda game that's ever existed. Reimagine the shit out of this, and give me my dreams, please. It's just... But it's realistic. Like, I don't allow myself to go to these spaces because it makes me disappointed with what we do get. So I'm not going to bet or predict that it's going to happen anytime soon, but I do think there is a chance. So you're saying there's a chance. Right, there's a chance. How big is that chance? No. Put it in number. 20. 20 out of what? 25%. 20%? 25. 20, yeah, like there's like... You think there's like a 1 in 4 chance that this happens? Maybe 1 in 5. Somewhere 20 to 25% it's a range, but you know, like I think there's a chance that they do do that. But to your point, you know... What makes you think... Beyond your personal desire, what makes you honestly think? Like set aside, set aside, I really want this to happen and go, what logic does Nintendo have to do it? So firstly, to the point about personal desire, I think the fact that the core Nintendo fanbase will pretty much entirely love the idea, like that alone is already a good argument, and let me explain. The reason we buy games is because we want that. Okay? So if we want something, then that's already an indicator that it will make money. You understand my point? It may sound really basic, but my point is is that that alone is already a good reason, because it's something that I think the core Zelda fanbase will really love. That's your point for earlier though. What would make more money to you? Accuracy and time. Like in your dream, Accuracy and time game here, or Breath of the Wild 2? Well Breath of the Wild 2, that's tough. Is it though? Because I don't... I think Breath of the Wild 2 has a potential, depending on how they handle it, to match Breath of the Wild. Yeah. And I think it's going to end up being eventually an up-trended cross-gen game someday too. I think they're going to re-release it. Sure, and that re-release of it probably maybe will push the game over. They're going to stay on Switch forever. They're bringing that to the next platform. The important thing to Breath of the Wild 2 is they have to market it not as a sequel necessarily. Like it is going to be a sequel, but don't call it Breath of the Wild 2. It has to have its own dedicated name. It used to be something that people can just jump into from that one. And because it'll be... Well they've always done that with Zelda though. Exactly. Technically, but you really didn't need to play one to play Zelda. Yeah, but I think doing that and actually mastering the open-air mechanics and style more so, they can make an actual better, more complete game. Totally agree. So it actually... We've spent so much time building that engine. I think now we can do all our dreams. Now you can master. You can really push what you established to another level. We're in the sky. Lots of crazy stuff. We're underground. Like things that they didn't have necessarily the time to do. They spent so much time building it. Well just think about Ocarina of Time though. Like there's some beautiful things about... Like it... I think in terms of the story, like it's pretty well told for what we expected from Zelda at the time. Oh at the time. I mean I can't talk much more than that at the time. Yeah, but it had a very nice atmosphere to it. But also there is a certain darkness to it that it had that was pretty cool as well. And it seems like they're trying to bring in a lot of that darkness into Breath of the Wild 2 which I'm excited about. I do feel like the art style might hold it back a little bit, but still it's pretty cool. But another really cool thing back then were the dungeons. They were set pieces. They had an implicit history there. You look at Breath of the Wild 1, there's a lot of shrines. They're kind of basic by comparison, right? And then you have these unique bosses. They have these epic names like King Dodongo, like prehistoric lava dinosaur, right? You're just like, what is this thing? What? Couldn't they just do that? Right, that's what I'm saying. I think Breath of the Wild 2 should do that, right? I think it will. I mean there are... I want my subterranean lava dragon. Like they just had such cool names that are not created at any time. There was a certain like swag and epicness they had back. I would already think the names were a little bit plain. They were kind of like really on point. Like you said, subterranean lava dragon. Okay, well it's a dragon that's under the earth and in lava. Well, it was cool because it was like Navi identifying it, right? Yeah. Like Domo was like Aristidic Demons writer or something. And that's who was the name's Volvagia and stuff like that, but yeah. The what? The boss you're talking about was Volvagia. The subterranean lava dragon had a name. Yeah, yeah. That was just a descriptor of what it was as a thing. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. But it was just cool. It was cool. So I would love for them to kind of go back to having that too. But anyway, just going back to my point, like making the argument for an octane time reimagining. Octane time sold 7 million back on the N64, which had a pretty small install base. I don't even think it hit 40 million. So, you know, we're talking about like... It was like 35, 36 million. Right. So it was about 20%. Like about 20% of N64 owners had octane. Which is the similar to Breath of the Wild on... Breath of the Wild is a little bit better, I think a little bit better of an install rate, but it's comparable. So it's just selling so much better, right? I think that if they were to reimagine octane time, it would still sell incredibly well. You look at Licks Awakening Remake. That thing sold like 5 million or more. That's just Licks Awakening Remake. Which by the way is only like a small uptick over the original release that sold 4.5 million. Sure, but I'm saying octane time remake, I feel like it definitely will sell more than that. Sure, I think it could hit 10. I don't think it's getting 20. Sure, but I think 10 million... You gotta remember octane of time, incredible sales for at the time, still wasn't even close to the best selling game on the N64. So as much interest as there was in that game, and as much as it grew the fan base, it was the best selling Zelda game for a long time until the Wild of the Princess came along. And then after that it became Breath of the Wild, and obviously we have no idea where Zelda's gonna go from here because we're in uncharted territory. Zelda's never been bigger than it is right now. But my thing is, I look at Licks Awakening and I go, yeah, okay, it's a top down Zelda game, interest wasn't gonna be as high. It did outsell the original release, but not by a significant margin. I look at octane time, it's sure, it'll be a more significant, it's not gonna be $500,000, it'll be 3 million, 5 million. Heck, let's say it doubles in sales to 14. That's incredible. But also, the interest in that game is based on people who already played that game. You talked about the core fan base. Well, the core Zelda fan base is on Switch because this is where the... They've never had Zelda more popular than it is now. So the interest level and what's next after the biggest Zelda game to ever release is so much higher than anything that's ever happened in the Zelda series before. That just bringing something like, the reason Final Fantasy VII is doing so big is because Final Fantasy is dwindling, it's going down. Zelda's skyrocketing right now. Sure. The classic games are why it's skyrocketing. So like bringing back one that feels fresh, feels new, looks amazing. And we might see this, by the way, whenever we make our HD and try the first HD, could be a little proving wrong. If those sell 15 million, I don't know. No, but those aren't... I don't think they're going to, but that's a little insane. But I don't think that's entirely fair to the point I'm making, though. Because you're talking about a straight-up remake with enhanced visuals and quality of life updates, but we're talking about, is effectively a new game, a retelling story, right? That doesn't play anything like Breath of the Wild because it's got to be its own thing. And Breath of the Wild is what makes Zelda popular. I think it will still have... No, no, no. Well, hold on a second. Like, I just don't see a world where... It'll still have open-air elements, right? Like, they'd be reimagining it, and this game would still... Are you going to throw right all of this in Ocarina of Time? Well, I mean, that comes down to... If this is a reimagining, we're talking about overhauled combat mechanics. We're talking about overhauled... Well, what I'm saying is, do you think Breath of the Wild, the game, would basically just use the Breath of the Wild... To an extent, yeah. To an extent. To an extent, yeah. You would probably maybe build Ocarina of Time based off that engine. A different visual style, right? And maybe the world isn't as, like, literally large in terms of volume. I know that Nintendo would do a different visual style. The reason I say that I don't know if they would... No, they will. ...is because Ocarina of Time was, obviously, at the time, like, a more realistic art style. Nintendo doesn't like that. It changes the rating of the game. They want it to be E for everybody, if they possibly could. Well, no, Breath of the Wild is Teen, isn't it? Sure. Or the E10. Now, imagine Ocarina of Time that has actual blood in it, and he's using a real... Like, if you take the Breath of the Wild, and the rating board has shown this, Breath of the Wild, if you give it a realistic, like a hyper realistic, or not even hyper realistic, because Switch can't really even do that, but if you give it a more realistic art style, it won't be rated T. It'll be rated M. Is it T or E10? It'll be rated M for violence, because it's too realistic. The reason Breath of the Wild doesn't get rated that way is because of its art style. It's directly due to the art style. So, Breath of the Princess was a Teen, and that game was the best selling Zelda game in the franchise until Breath of the Wild. Absolutely. And I mean, I think you can have a little blood, but they don't even... You can have blood, like... It has like an entire area that's full of it. So, like, just eliminate that. People would be pretty upset that you just fundamentally changed Bottom of the Well. You just got rid of all these elements in the Bottom of the Well. They did it. There's more to the game in the Bottom of the Well. Like, Ocarina of Time 3D, what is that rated? Like, I'm trying to put it this way. Nintendo doesn't make those kind of games anymore. Metroid is like the closest you get to it. These days. Even Xenoblade, he's heavily into anime. Right. I don't think that it's... I don't know. I don't think it's such a good game. I'm just saying Nintendo doesn't make those kind of games, is what I'm trying to point out. Like, I can't think of a single modern Nintendo game today that Nintendo goes in that art direction. It's gonna be a different art direction. Sure. I personally think, even if... But let's say you get your different art direction. People are gonna look at it as, do I want to play an old game in Breath of the Wild style, or do I want to play a new game in Breath of the Wild style? Now, I'm not saying... It's gonna feel new, of course. Millions of people haven't played it, but... Part of it might have been... It's new to them, though, too. I mean... Like, I'll put it this way. If Final Fantasy, if the last Final Fantasy game that came out was the best-selling by the same margin that Zelda Breath of the Wild is, would Final Fantasy VII even exist? Or would they just be working on the next Final Fantasy game? So, I think... Hold on a second. There's another issue I'm having with the argument, because I'm not framing this as the next big 3D Zelda in place of Nintendo's next big project. I'm talking about this as an image. But it would have to be. This would have to be the core Zelda team making it, and it would take the place of a brand new Zelda game. It wouldn't take as long. Instead of a new game. Because there's no way they do this without putting the full team on it. So you're asking them to do something that takes everybody. They can work on two at once, and it would push up. It would push it up, right? It would push it up, but it wouldn't be... They've never... They've worked on two Zeldas, not two big 3D Zeldas at once. Never happened. It's never happened in the history of Nintendo. So why would it happen now? Keep in mind, they had a staff of over 300 people making Breath of the Wild, and they have a staff of 350 people making Breath of the Wild, too. How the hell do you think they could split that team up to make two Zeldas at once? They could do it. How? Nintendo's at first to spending money. How? How do they do it? They're gonna double the Zeldas team size overnight? The point is, we're not talking about... We're not talking about... It's popular at the current size when I make it bigger. We're not talking about this actually for sure happening, right? I'm talking about this as a possibility. Yeah, I know you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I'm taking the devil's advocate viewpoint of, this doesn't make any financial sense for Nintendo to even do this. But I still disagree with that, though. Like, you... Well, because you think it's gonna sell in almost as well as Save Breath of the Wild, too, Will. You kind of feel like the sales potential is there. But you also have a nostalgic interest in Ocarina of Time that fans today don't. People who bought Breath of the Wild who've never played Zeldas before don't give two shits about Ocarina of Time. No, no, no, no, no. Hear me out, though. If Link's Awakening Remake can sell five million, a Ocarina of Time reimagining, which is more than just a basic remake, will absolutely sell more than double. Okay? Like, the impact of this, in my opinion, in my opinion, and I think a lot of people agree with me here, it's gonna basically have the sales potential of a brand new... If they're reimagining it, giving it modern open-air mechanics, if they're adding more story elements, more characters, more town sidequests, then entirely new visuals. It will have the sales potential of a new Zelda game in comparison to what Zelda games used to be. No. No. Because it'll still have the open-air mechanics. It'll still, and it still will be bringing in a large Zelda fanbase. I don't think it'll necessarily outsell Breath of the Wild. I mean, I don't know. Like, depending on how they market and how it looks, right, because also, the visual style I have in mind for this will look pretty cool. So, remember the Wii U Tech demo for the Twilight Princess art style? Imagine a visual style like that, but obviously with our creative time link. Like, a very surreal, fanciful style that's almost like a Pixar Disney movie quality kind of look. Like, imagine if it looked kind of like a fantasy epic Disney kind of 3D animated movie. Imagine that on not Switch Harbor, but Next Generation Harbor, right? I think something like that. Imagine a teen to immature rating that's going to limit sales, and Nintendo's not going to do it. No, it's not. Well, that style is going to, it's not going to be like inherently mature. Like, it feels like you're almost describing a Witcher style game. I don't know. I mean, it's not like that. I know the style you're talking about. No, no, it's not. It's not. It's not. I'm not. I think that's where, I'm talking about Disney. I'm mentioning Disney and like 3D Pixar movies. As like a comparison. Like, I don't, that's not mature. That's the opposite. Yeah, I was going to be like, that's like not even close to the art style you were describing. Right, but it is. So like, not as chibi of a look, right? But like, if you look at the Wii 11 tech demo, like, it's not realistic. It's not like Witcher at all. It's like the most realistic thing Nintendo's ever created. It's not real. I wouldn't say it's realistic. I would say it's using a lot of advanced techniques, but it's a very surreal look. Like I would say it's, I mean like Metroid Dread for example, it's not real. It looks like Twilight Princess remastered the way Twilight Princess people wanted to be remastered is what. I feel like it has a little bit more of a fanciful slightly. Sure. Right? I'm telling you right now, Nintendo would never do that. There's a reason they didn't do it in the first place, despite the popularity of that tech demo. That tech demo, by the way, was like the most viewed thing for E3 for a long time for them. And they didn't go that direction. And then when they went in there, by the way, Nintendo does different art directions for everything. So I'm not gonna say it's impossible for them to go back to some sort of art direction like that. They'll revisit that art direction, I think at some point maybe. I just don't think it's going to be in remaking a game. I wouldn't be surprised if the next Zelda is like, is far less cell shaded. I think they might, the direction will be a little different. I think it's, I actually think it's kind of weird. I don't know that they're gonna make, see, I think then. And I think I'm not saying it's going to look realistic. I never said it's going to look realistic. What kind of hardware is Nintendo giving us next? Something that'll be more powerful than a PS4. And a handheld. Yeah. Okay. I mean, the Switch is already kind of close to that. It's not that, right? But it like, so we're talking about next generation hardware, like when you factor in an AI upscaler, right? Which is going to go on to like seriously improve performance. Like, yeah, it's going to be more powerful than the PS4. It's going to be able to output visuals that outdo PS4 games. Yeah. Sure. Now, what is Nintendo massively known for with their games, even today? Like, when you play like a Nintendo game on Switch, like, let's not use like, those bad examples. So let's use a good example. Say Breath of the Wild, or Mario Odyssey, or Splatoon 3, Arms, whatever, even Astral Chain, which was even made by Nintendo, Platinum Games. What is something that stands out? Why do these games, even though PS5 and Xbox Series X are out there, gaming PCs have been around this whole time, why do these games still look so damn good, despite having weaker hardware? There's a few different things. A part of it is color design, right? And part of it is they don't go for realistic in general. But I'm not saying that this is going to be a realistic art style. It's one answer. It's art direction. Yeah. They choose an art direction that is timeless. I think what we're just agreeing though is that I'm not arguing that this is going to be a realistic art style. I'm not at all arguing that. Actually, if you look at Ocarina of Time 3D and Mastreaty, they look less realistic in a way than the original. Yeah, they don't look as realistic as the original. But that style, that's what I'm talking about though, something more that. And there are ways to imply dark things without actually increasing them. Sure. Okay. I mean, first of all, Breath of the Wild technically has a really dark style. Okay. And then the trailer is even more gruesome looking. Like there are explicit things being implied. So the idea that the next is not going to have dark themes. I mean, that's bogus. I would say we don't have dark themes. Right. It's not about the themes. No. Now, if you're talking about the well specifically where there's like skeletons and blood there and that's, that's, you know, we'll see there. But again, this is a reimagining. Right. So they are going to reimagine how that would be portrayed. Not only that, dude. You forget about the Redeads. They're like a huge part of the game. And they're literally dead people humping you. Well, they're not humping you, but that's what it looks like. And it wouldn't look like those animations would be different today. But it's still one of those like- I mean, the Redeads still exists in our creative time and more jurism at PD. Those games aren't rated team. Right? 30, 10. Those are using N64 style graphics that have been reimagined in a more cartoony style. What happened? They took it and made it more cartoony. When Redeads came back and Wind Waker, they weren't that scary anymore. So, but this all comes down to art direction though, right? Like they're going to make decisions. I don't think this impacts the likelihood of it. It's just different choices. By the way, I don't think it matters what art direction they go. I don't think there's a world that exists where Ocarina of Time remaster could sell anything close to Breath of the Wild. Literally, we've never seen anything in Zelda sell like Breath of the Wild. So imagine an old game could come back and be reimagined and suddenly do what Breath of the Wild did. Breath of the Wild did this before Switch was a big success. It did this before Switch was a big success. More copies of Breath of the Wild sold than systems existed. That's never happened in Nintendo history. They've never sold more copies of a game at launch than the systems they had available. That's undeniable Breath of the Wild helped make Switch a success out the gate. So because of that, and you think about that for a moment, you go, okay, yeah, well, Zelda only sold, you know, it sold 20% of that. Okay, but why didn't it move more N64s then? Breath of the Wild moved Switches. Why couldn't Zelda move more N64s? Why couldn't Mario 64 move more N64s? Why weren't more copies of Mario 64 sold than systems that existed? There's a number of factors. Is that the game? It's not just the game. Well, the point I'm trying to bring up is that these old games are amazing and I love them. But if you fundamentally make them in the brand new series. Breath of the Wild wouldn't have saved the Wii U. If Breath of the Wild came at the beginning of the Wii U's life cycle, it still wouldn't have saved the Wii U. There's a few things to consider. Like, I can realize people love it. If you completely remake the game, you also risk alienating all the original fans of the game because of all the changes. That has happened, by the way, with Final Fantasy VII. Its success is mostly built on new fans. There's a lot of older fans that are kind of like, I'm going to stick with Final Fantasy VII re-released on the PlayStation 5. I'm good. That's not Final Fantasy VII to me. That's a completely different game that doesn't interest me. Let me ask you a question, though. So, I in general agree with the idea that if you have all these new ideas for the Zelda game, why not just use it for the future Zelda game? Especially considering that every Zelda game takes place in Hyrule anyway. You could argue every new Zelda game is already a re-imagining of the previous Zelda game. So I get that. But, at the same time, if you're re-imagining Arcadia time, compared if there's any... Okay, so excluding obviously Breath of the Wild, any sort of Zelda game you can take to re-imagine what is the one that has the best sales potential. It's occurring at time. There's not really any argument. If you can re-imagine what one has the best sales potential, Twilight Princess. You know, the better-selling game. With the most done in Zelda history. And the most unique boss fights in Zelda history. I do like Twilight Princess. If it wasn't me... I mean, it just factually outsold Arcadia time. And I know we can talk about... Oh, the Wii. Look at the Wii. I totally get the Wii was the biggest big anomaly. But why was the Wii an anomaly? It wasn't because of Twilight Princess. It didn't... So here's the thing though. Twilight Princess did outsell Arcadia time. But how much did it sell? 8 million versus 7? What? How much did the Twilight Princess outsell Arcadia time by? Like, not a significant... It sold like 8 something million. Well, a little more than some GameCube citizen, but... Well, let's look it up. Because like, well, you don't have to look it up. The point is it's like, within a couple million, right? Sure, yep. Maybe even less than that. But that difference, when you factor in that the Wii had over 100 million systems out. The N64 had what, 35? Yeah, but why did the Wii sell? And then... Did the Wii sell because of Twilight Princess or did it sell because of Wii Sports? It sold to an audience that... There's a very small core... There's a small core gaming audience on that. I think we both agree on that. Yeah, but what I'm saying is, I'm saying that some people did pick up a Wii to play Twilight Princess, absolutely. I'm not disputing that. But I'm also saying, okay. So, some people picked it up. You know, 8% of the total Wii's audience picked it up. 20% picked up, obviously, Breath of the Wild. Which one was actually the system seller then? The one that sold 8% of the audience or the one that sold 20% of the audience that outsold the number of systems that existed at the time? Wii Sports sold 80 million or whatever it was whenever they finally unbundled it from Wii's when it kind of stopped selling. I think when Wii Sports Resorts came out is when that started happening. But my thing is, look at all of the major selling games that outsold Zelda. 8 million sold on Wii. But then look at Wii Fit. Look at the games that work bundled them. Look at the games that sold them. The audience for Wii was clearly not hardcore Nintendo faithful buying up hardcore games. That was not the audience on Wii. And yet, despite that being the exact audience N64 was, a carryover of hardcore audience from the NES and SNES. Wii was an entirely new audience for the most part. Obviously, I owned a Wii. I'm sure you owned a Wii. A lot of people owned a Wii that were fans of Nintendo before that. But not everybody did. There's a lot of Nintendo fans that totally skipped Wii. So it's screw motion controls. Screw not being an HD. This is not what I want. I don't want this crap. I can get Twilight Princess on here. I don't want Skyward Sword. It's garbage. I think Twilight Princess sold better than Ocarina of Time because of the circumstances. And the difference is even that significant. It had a much better selling circumstance than Ocarina of Time. What if I were to tell you that Twilight Princess' 8 million sales came in the first two years and then it stopped selling? What difference does that make? Yeah, it hit 8 million in year two and then it just kind of slow crawled from there. It became a classic game eventually. It didn't really lose much of the sales. What I'm trying to point out is, it was essentially people who needed that new hardware right away that bought it. And then that was it. Breath of the Wild has hit like 25 million almost, I'm sure by the end of the year. It's still selling because it's still selling. Switches are still selling. Zelda's never done. I'm trying to explain this to you. Zelda's never been evergreen. It's never been an evergreen game. It's not Mario Kart. It's not Mario Party. That's like, Zelda has never done what Breath of the Wild is doing. So to automatically assume, well, if we bring this old game back but in a brand new way that feels like a brand new game, it's going to suddenly be evergreen. The only Zelda game in history that's ever been evergreen. To me, just by the way, this is all hypothetical. So we're just taking two different sides to the brain. I just look at it as. But when I say, when I put the thing is when it's a reimagining. You have one game that's done something Zelda's never done. So let's bring back an old game and assume it can do what that one game did. I just don't think it's fair to call it an old game because it's going to be a reimagining. It's from 1998, man. Like, yeah, it'll be remade and reimagined to a new thing. But would you say Final Fantasy VII is still Final Fantasy VII? It's a different game. So the story elements in it aren't from Final Fantasy VII? The characters aren't from Final Fantasy VII. It's based off of it, right? But it's not the same thing. It's a different thing. We're talking about a different thing here. Look, I know that it's like the one of the craziest remakes of all time for any classic game. But I can't even think of any other one that's been as crazy as Final Fantasy VII and then the differences and basically rebuilding from the ground up into something different. It's not the same thing. Different combat system, different, you know, added content, expanded story. But it's not a brand new story. It's the same story being retold to you just with expanded universe. Well, that's also not entirely true either. The story is actually different. So the story's different. Yeah, I'll give you one. We don't have the complete story yet, so it's hard to read. Right, but the story is being told in a different way. Sure, sure. If it gets to the same ending, sure. Because they built the game in a different way. But fundamentally, the core elements of the story, the core characters are all there. They all existed. The script is there. They're just expounding upon that script. It's like, here's the rough draft and now take this and do something with it. And I feel like that's what they did with Final Fantasy VII Remake. I just think that if they actually, hypothetically, because again, I don't think that they're going to do this because, well, one, it does make more sense just to put more effort into a brand new Zelda. Right, as opposed to re-imagined. Like, if they're going to redo Ocarina of Time, to your point, it makes more sense just to do a remaster of Ocarina of Time 3D, right? Like, we both agree on that. But what I'm arguing with is hypothetical that's probably not going to happen. By the way, guys, do you see us fashionably disagreeing, guys? We don't care. We're just having fun with the hypothetical debate. The thing is, is just, I think that if it is reimagined, right, based off the same story, but they tell other things like answering to the fallen hero of Time 1, if it has open-air mechanics, new towns, it's basically a new game that just, based off that story, like, and it's marketed with this new art style, people are going to see it. For most people, it's going to be a new Zelda experience. Actually, I mean, it's going to be a new Zelda experience for everyone. That, to me, is basically going to have the same potential as a new 3D Zelda. And you're going to be hampered just somewhat. I just fundamentally disagree. That's all. I mean, we're just kind of going into this course without a hammer. Right, and we also disagree on what's a better game to re-imagine Twilight Prince and the Ocarina of Time. I understand Twilight Prince is sold more, right, but not by much. I don't think either is going to be reimagined. I want them, okay, correction. I want what you want, what you're asking for, I want. I also am more of a realist and realize it ain't happening. They ain't going to make two Zelda games that are this big at once. They spent 120 plus million dollars on Breath of the Wild to make that happen. They're not going to do that again for Ocarina of Time, while also spending another 120 million on a new Zelda game. They're not going to make two at once. They don't have the team to do two at once. And on top of all of that, Zelda's doing something right now that's never been happened before. I don't know why Nintendo would even have the thought in their mind that if we Breath of the Wild, an older game. I'm just using that as like a generalized statement. Basically make it completely fresh and new like it's a brand new experience versus just giving you a brand new experience. That Nintendo thinks that is worthwhile because there's a hardcore initial base. There's no more hardcore of a base than what bought Breath of the Wild. Period. It is the most hardcore base Nintendo's ever had for Zelda. I mean this should just continue doing open air zeldas. Hmm? That's what they're going to do. They just need to continue to open air zeldas. They said they make Ocarina of Time open world. They have the regular physics. It kind of feels like Breath of the Wild but then it feels different. Has it's own art style, it's own feel, it's own dungeons and all. Yeah, obviously. It's a completely different Zelda game. I'm just saying Zelda is most popular today because of a certain way Zelda games are being made. You can't just take that, say this one's now completely open world and expect people to buy it versus hey, like Final Fantasy 7 remake and I made this point earlier. The reason that it's selling so well in my opinion is because Final Fantasy's popularity has been dwindling. Zelda's is going up which means the best thing to do is keep buying into the hype of what people expect and want which is why Breath of the Wild 2 is even happening in the first place is because it's sold so well. Now we'll see. Breath of the Wild 2 sales about there. There's no guarantee this game will sell. Yeah, I mean I think odds are Breath of the Wild 2 is not going to outsell. It could sell 10 million and that would be a disappointment compared to original Breath of the Wild. Even though it'd be the second best selling Zelda game of all time, it'd also be like that ain't it chief. Yeah, but Breath of the Wild 2 probably won't outsell. Oh no, I mean, I think it's going to, it might have a break. I'll tell you this. It's like month one records for best selling game of all time. Like crazy numbers for month one. Sure, like I'll say this. I think Breath of the Wild 2 has a greater chance about selling Breath of the Wild 1 than Ocarina of Time reimagining has to exist, right? Yeah. Like, but I also think Breath of the Wild 2 is not going to outsell. You admit it. Your dream Ocarina of Time it's only like a 20-25% chance it's still greater than not that it's not even going to happen. And I asked you specifically to argue for hey, tell me, you know, setting aside your love of the game, why do you think it'll happen? You brought up 20% of the N64. You brought up having a core fan base there. You brought up obviously a different art direction that might potentially be a more popular art direction or so. Who knows? You know, because that's obviously been untested by Nintendo because as we went through before, they just don't do that. They also did A Link Between Worlds. So there is somewhat of a history. And Open World is a big deal that's really popular. Well, A Link Between Worlds. But we've seen a number of games just being Open World doesn't make them popular. Right. But I just want to mention The Link Between Worlds. Like, that's a reimagining of Link to the Past to an extent. It's like a sequel, but a remake at the same time. It's kind of a weird sort of hybrid there. I've already gone for that, yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, there is some precedent. But yeah, I mean, you know, we've been going on a circle. Well, yeah, The Link Between Worlds is still basically the exact same world with a different story. It's largely like they just said, hey, we haven't done a game like this in a while. Let's do it again. Link Between Worlds. And it's still technically a new game. It's not a remake. It doesn't. I mean, when I played it, I didn't even as a link to the past. And I played a link to the past. Like it just felt like a... Yeah. I mean, it is a brand new game. So if you want to argue, they'll revisit the world of Ocarina of Time and make a new game. Sure. I just don't think they're bringing Ocarina of Time back in that way. I might say Ocarina of Time will never come back, by the way, guys. It's going to at some point. They did it already on the 3DS. So they're going to do something with it. Just like I think they're going to do something. I mean, we got Link's Awakening back. I think all these old Nintendo games are going to come back in some fashion that's more modernized. I just don't see any of them having even close to the sales potential of a brand new Zelda game based around the most popular Zelda game ever made. This would be like saying that GTA 6 is not going to sell or that the GTA remasters are going to... No, granted. These aren't completely reimagined from the ground up. So it's a totally kind of different thing. But GTA is also a much more popular franchise in Zelda. And trying to argue like bringing back older games and like reimagining those older games would suddenly be more popular than GTA 6. When GTA 5 is the most popular GTA has ever been. Yeah. You could also argue Breath of the Wild is a reimagining of the... to an extent it already is. A reimagining of what? The original Legend of Zelda. It is, to an extent. Like that was part of their inspiration for this game. The only inspiration is that it's open world. There's nothing else that's related, liberalatable. And I love the original Zelda, by the way. It's phenomenal. Yeah, sure. You can argue the dungeons out of order thing, but then you can also argue that Breath of the Wild doesn't have dungeons. Really? So... I mean, it does. Not really. Even in the original Legend of Zelda, all the dungeons had themes and were different. That's not really the case here. I mean, there's technically themes, but once you get in the... What makes the dungeons unique, which are the Divine Beast, of course, are the four big dungeons in the game, is the best part about those dungeons is how we get into them. That's fun. That's unique. Then once you get in, they kind of all just feel the same, including the boss fight at the end. That wasn't the case in the original Zelda. The original Zelda's dungeons are more akin to what happened in The Legend of the Vast, Ocarina of Time, Zelda II, and they all were unique. Breath of the Wild's only real resemblance to the original Zelda is that it doesn't always tell you what to do, and it's open world. Yeah, I'll say that Breath of the Wild II is exciting because it's gonna... We're hoping it's gonna have some of those more unique grip. That would be cool. We're hoping... But even Breath of the Wild... Well, thank God. With Breath of the Wild II, it has all that stuff. Every single major Zelda game has a callback in Breath of the Wild. So that's why we all presume it recombined the timeline. It technically hasn't been officially confirmed that that's what it does, but Nintendo's also like, it happens 10,000 years past everything else. Okay, but if it's in one of the three timelines, then it didn't happen 10,000 years past the things in the other timelines because it doesn't exist in those timelines. But I don't know. It's a whole kerfuffle that Nintendo will probably never do anything with because I don't think they really care too much about the timeline. I do think they did use Breath of the Wild to sort of reset things a little bit. Moving forward, that's a whole another topic. I'm actually really curious what they do after Breath of the Wild II. Like, we're obviously... We agree there's gonna be open air, but what direction do they go? Do they go back in the timeline? Do they just continue to move forward? Who knows? Do they do it in high rule again? It's gonna be interesting to see what they do after. I mean, one thing we all agree is that we're really looking forward to Breath of the Wild II. What they're gonna do is they're gonna actually re-imagine our... All three of us. This is like the triforce of Zelda loving Breath of the Wild II. We all want to know what the hell is happening. Yeah, and I do, by the way, I do really love your concept for opening of time. I gotta play Devil's Advocate or it's not really much of a conversation. Gotta have a little debate. I'm already trying to imagine it. Gotta have a little healthy debate. It's gonna happen, right? And it's gonna be like three years from now. Plus, it also doesn't help. By the way, guys, publicly, I have my own bias. Akira in time is not even a top 10 Zelda game for me, so I have almost... Like, of all the games that get remastered, it's not even on my list, so... That's interesting. Despite the fact that it was the game that made me fall in love with Zelda. And I do think it's a really good game. And I think it was the best way to bring Zelda into a 3D plane. But I think... Aren't there any time that Twilight Princess had the best boss designs of the entire time? Twilight Princess had amazing boss fights. I think, next to the Breath of the Wild, Wind Waker had the best... No, I think Wind Waker had the best dungeons, to be honest. There wasn't as many. But I liked the dungeon as well. There wasn't as many. But there was a whole issue with the Wind Waker. The Wind Waker's biggest issue was that so many dungeons got cut out and it had a rushed Twilight Princess. And it didn't add them with the HD remaster. Yeah. I don't know. Um, I had... Can we talk about what's over the powers on this channel? Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. I feel like these conversations make me want to bring back the old... Wow, what I called it. I used to have a show on this channel way back in the very beginning. That was basically a Zelda-based podcast. That literally... It wouldn't happen all the time. Once a month. And we would just... For hours. Like four hours. It would just be like, we're talking about this game, this dungeon, this bit of news, this, that. I'm like, oh my god, these conversations bring me back. I feel like... Guys, would you... Would you guys want me to bring back like a once a month Zelda podcast? That might be something I might be able to pull together. I know so many people that love Zelda. That's a good idea. Like, you know, I don't know. I never got game over with Jesse. I might be able to get Zelda taken on this. And some others. Like, I... Dude, there's so many people that... I miss these... I miss these in-depth hypotheticals. And... Oh my god. I miss this. Yeah, I could also... This used to be one of my different living posts. I used to talk about Zelda for a living. It was crazy. Since you shout out on my art for the entire reimagining, I'm going to shit on Twilight Princess. Twilight Princess is an amazing game, but it could have been like one of the best games ever if it was harder. Like, it was just too easy. Twilight Princess isn't in my top five. So it's not that... Oh, but it isn't your top 10 though. Sure. It's my top 10. I think it's better than Archery of Time. Top 10 Zeldas. I think if you eliminate the impact of Archery of Time back in the 80s... Archery of Time is not in your top 10 Zeldas. No. There's... Like... Okay. List them. You want me to list my top 10 right now? Please. Okay. Like, I want to see everything you put above Archery of Time because there's not even that... Sure. Okay. Here's the controversial one, which... Fine, it's fine. Archery of Time's not number 11 either, so it doesn't matter. Zeldas... In no specific order. Just let me get easy for you. Zeldas is my second favorite, but... Okay. Again, I can agree with most people that Archery of Time is probably better than it, but for me, I prefer Zeldas too. But, again, Archery of Time's not even number 11, so it doesn't matter. Then we got Spirit Tracks. What? Spirit Tracks is fucking amazing, man. Have you played that game? Like, starting to finish? No. No. I played that an hour last, but not Spirit Tracks. Dude, it's amazing. Oh my God, Spirit Tracks is the bomb diggity. By the way, I don't even like Phantom Hourglass. Like, Phantom Hourglass is my least favorite Zeldagame of all time, so it's crazy that Spirit Tracks is so high to me, but it is. Okay. Then we got Wind Waker. That deserves to be in the top 10. If not top 5. Which draws Mask. Sure. Jesus. Okay. Well, I don't have my number 6 up. I'm only at 5, 5. I don't know why I'm holding... Well, because you're... Because I was doing this thing, and I'm like, wait a second. Um, let's see, hold on. I literally had this list written out. So by the way, someone's going to find my old list and be like, you know, this is all right. It's all the top of my head. Okay. This isn't me sitting down and actually debating with myself, but Akron time was not in my top 10. Like, it hasn't been there a long time. Okay. So number 6. Let me see that. I got to imagine that thing for you. Link's Awakening. Okay. I think that might be... Yeah, yeah. Link's Awakening is at number 6. Used to be in my top 5, so but I feel the while came up. Let me see. Number 7. How do people with the remake? Is, uh, Skyward Sword. Is the remake... Skyward Sword. Skyward Sword. Okay. Not even the HD one just in general. I'd love Skyward Sword. But I'm curious about Link's Awakening though. Like, how do you feel about the remake? And Skyward Sword used to again be in my top 10, but then after replaying it, it's like, okay, no, it's not quite. I don't like it quite more or more than my top 5. But, uh, Skyward Sword. But Link's Awakening though. Um, I'll link to some worlds. Let's see here. I'm trying to make sure that I'm not placing any... I want to make sure that my other ones get in here. Doesn't help when I don't have the full list right in front of me. Sort of. I'm holding it for you. Um, and then... Why don't I remember every... Hold on. Question though. Hold on. A Link's Awakening remake. Is that... You do bunch that in with the original or the two separate things for you? Do I... What about a Link's Awakening remake? Link's Awakening remake. You, because you listed Link's Awakening. Like, are you... When you say Link's Awakening, are you thinking... Remake? I'm thinking the original. Or the DX version. Well, I mean, the DX version is the same thing in color with an extra dungeon. To me, I view them as like the same. Okay. Now, the remake... It's cool. It's nice, but that's not... I'm talking about the original. Okay. All right, that's what I wanted to know. Which I can admit, maybe there's some nostalgia there for that. And that's fine. It's cool. But I just enjoy it more than I can return. Um, yeah, Minish Cap. That's the one I was thinking of. I was like, what was that Capcom one? Minish Cap. Minish Cap. And then... Sort of a tie here. I got the Oracle games. I love both of them, but... I mean, I do have one. I prefer more than the other, but whatever. You can put them there. That gets you technically to 11 because it's two different games. And then let's see here. I actually... People... This one's really controversial because it's also not considered a mainline Zelda game. Tingle's Rosie Land. Balloon... Whatever. Shit. Whatever the fuck was called. I haven't played it in so long. It's called Tingle's Rosie Rupee Land. That's the one. Interesting. Not the Balloon Fight one. Rosie Rupee Land specific. Yeah. So what I have to do is... That sounds insane. That sounds crazy. And to that I say, have you played it? And do you even know the story of Tingle? Because it is way more in-depth than anything Zelda has ever told. It is insane. He is... It's such a sad story. The story of Tingle. You're just in this Tingle problem. It feels like the story of my life. I'm not even saying this as a joke. The story of Tingle is so damn sad. Oh, by the way. I also put Triforce Heroes. I had it back during the time. So... I think his brain's gonna explode. You realize after he times technically the highest rated game of all time. Small sample size, old time. I know. It is... Put it this way. Put it this way. Where people bring up, by the way. When people bring up that Ocarina Time is the highest rated game of all time, I go, that's cool. So if it's so great, how come the 3D version's not anywhere near the top 10? When it came out on 3DS, the reviews of it were nowhere near the top 10. Which tells you... For a time. The small sample size is literally the only reason it's the highest rated. I don't agree with that because it's for its time, right? Times are different. For its time there wasn't as many people doing reviews. So you could say for its time, but if it re-released today with modern visual, I don't think it'll be up there. But it's... Sure, I understand what you're saying, but that's not the only factor involved here, right? When Ocarina Time came out, it was revolutionary. When Ocarina Time 3D came out, it did nothing different. It was just a 3D remake. So what you're saying is... Okay, so it did nothing different, which technically it did do some different. It added some things. Nothing different in terms of innovation for the industry. Okay. Okay, so what you're saying is... Ocarina Time was impressive at the time, but it's not impressive today. No. Well, then why didn't it get as good a... Okay, it's fundamentally the same game. Why didn't it get as good a review scores? Which, by the way, a lot of the outlets did give it the same review scores. But the difference is there's more people reviewing now than back then. Gotta remember, back in the 90s, what were the things that were counted? Magazines and like a sparse website. There was hardly anybody reviewing video games back then. This needs to be like reminded, there was not a lot of alternative opinions in video games back then. It was basically if a magazine said a game was great, it's up in the top 10 of all time. Now, some people might go, oh, so then why have some of these other classic games fallen off? That's because something very interesting has happened with Ocarina of Time, compared to other classic games. I don't know if you've seen this. Some of these other classic games that suddenly have like 90 reviews on them and have dropped their rating is because the reviews on Open Critic and the reviews on Metacritic, for some odd reason, they're counting reviews of re-releases into the original reviews. So when it comes back in a classic form on a system and some outlet who's never reviewed it before reviews that game and gives it, say, a seven, they're counting that into the original game score. For some reason, Ocarina of Time, who has also had reviews back when it came out on the Wii Virtual Console, Wii U Virtual Console, and also, now, in the Switch, I haven't seen any reviews yet on the Switch, but I'm presuming they exist somewhere. None of those reviews are counted like they did for the other games, which why does that tell me? There's a little bias happening at Metacritic and Open Critic where they're treating this as nothing's allowed to pass it. We're not going to add any more reviews to it. We're not going to amend reviews to it like we did to other games. I'm just saying, I love Ocarina of Time, by the way, it made me fall in love with Zelda franchise. I also, in my opinion, every Zelda game that's released since Ocarina of Time is better than Ocarina of Time. I don't think Ocarina of Time does anything special besides being the first 3D Zelda game. And that is a big task, by the way, because a lot of franchises failed going to 3D. All right, so, all right, I'm going to actually, I'm going to push back on you there. So, one thing that Ocarina of Time does that I really enjoy, that I would, another reason why I would love it for them to imagine is playing music, right? Because it kind of went away from that with the new Zelda games. It'd be really nice if they actually doubled down on that for... Well, the music stuff? Sure. Yeah, yeah, like... Sure, that's an amazing soundtrack. Right, but you actually can play music, and that was a really cool thing. It was a korma cank to the game that was for progression. Spirit tracks, and it's better. Spirit, I mean, okay, I didn't play Spirit tracks, but I can't really... It's better in Spirit tracks. I didn't play Spirit tracks, but I played every other Zelda game, and Wind Waker's nice, but it's not as good. Well, we have. Majora's Mask is simple. Wind Waker's more about controlling the wind, not really music, isn't it? I mean, you do play music, sort of, but it's not exactly the same. I would say Majora's Mask is better at music than Ocarina of Time for playing it. You have a bunch of different instruments. You can play all the same songs on all those instruments. You get a completely different effect. It's sweet. It is pretty cool. No, obviously you say, well, the credits of the idea goes to Ocarina of Time. Obviously, the credit for a lot of things is Majora's Mask or Ocarina of Time, but... And by the way, the thought process of Majora's Mask is better than Ocarina of Time is not even controversial. A lot of old school Nintendo fans feel that way. So another thing that I think Ocarina of Time handles better than most games, period, is just how it ends. It has one of the strongest endings. This is not... You're making a face, but this is not like an alien opinion. This is a common opinion, okay? That game had a really, really awesome... The whole sort of lead-up to the castle, triumphing the castle, getting to the top, seeing, hearing the build-up of the organ up the steps. Sure. Finally duking it out with Ganondorf, rescuing Zelda. Him having this crazy explosion, you think he's dead, but then the tower starts to crash, you have to race down with Zelda, running with her, fighting through Stalfos, getting attacked by fire and rocks and crashing walls, to get out in time. That's all exhilarating, and then everything just crashes down, and you think you're done. You've just gone through a gauntlet. Because the fight's hard. Like, arcade time was challenging, and even going down the tower was challenging, but then after that, there's one more fight, and he evolves into Ganondorf. That's when he becomes Ganondorf, which is also a crazy thing. It shows when Ganondorf becomes Ganondorf, which is a huge story thing. And you have that fight, and there's this moment where he knocks out the master sword, and you also don't have access to Navi. Like, well, you get Navi during the Ganondorf fight, but you don't have access to Navi. Yeah, yeah. But the point is like, there are these moments that that entire series of battles does, it makes you feel uncomfortable for moments. And how does the game end? And then the final end, you flash the heck out of his head and you stab him in there, which is very satisfying. And, you know, then it has a pretty somber ending, which I think is kind of cool. Most games don't end that strong. So, Breath of the Wild did not end that strong. It took me, when I was a kid, it took me two years to be documenting the thing. This was because I didn't own it. I kept having to rent it from Robbuster, so it was one of those situations where I didn't get to play it as often as I wanted to. I thought everything about that sequence was epic and cool and amazing. I didn't think the actual fights were that difficult, but the escape sequence and all that, that was hard. Like the tennis match was not that difficult. The, you know, going underneath his body and slashing his tail. Again, not that difficult. At that point, I had faced harder things in the game than those fights. However, however, the whole sequence of events is really cool. And the Oregon playing, I agree, that's all really, really cool. And there hasn't really been moments really comparable, necessarily, to that exact thing in other Zelda games. There's been attempts at it that haven't really been as great. I would argue, though none of that's even the ending. The ending is they send you back to being a kid. And when you get sent back to being a kid, I understand in the grand context, it creates a time-lapse, but whatever. But you get sent back to being a kid, and factually, I'm sitting there playing this as a kid, I'm sent back to being a kid and the game just starts all over again. Which made me feel like, one, I'm stuck in a time loop, and two, nothing I did mattered. All this epicness doesn't matter, because I have to do it all over again just to get the same ending. Which, by the way, I did play all the way to the end. Again, thinking that it would be different. And it wasn't. I just got sent back to being a kid again. Which created an infinite time loop, which to me meant, nothing I did mattered. The real story here is I'm stuck in an infinite time loop, and there's no way out. And that's the real story of Ocarina of Time, is there's no way out. No, you find out later, the timeline explains Hyrule's story. I grow up, you find out that's not really what's happening. But as a child, what else am I supposed to think? All I'm sending you back to your childhood so you can have a childhood. I mean, a childhood where my mom is still gone, I'm still abandoned, and everything bad is still about to happen. Because nothing I did happened yet. The game, it felt like the game ripped it from me. It ripped my entire journey from me, and said, here you go, become a kid and do it all over again. That's what it feels like. I know they explain it in some different ways, but factually, you restart the game. That's not how I interpret it. I interpreted as they have already a knowledge of what's to come. To me, it was like the most disappointing ending to a Zelda game I've ever experienced. You go through all this, your whole goal is to save Zelda, and you're trying to be awesome, and you finally get to the end. You're supposed to have this nice happy ending, and you're going to be with Zelda forever, and it's going to be all great. Whether we're boyfriend or girlfriend, it doesn't really matter. The point is, we did this together, and she's like, oh, you lost seven years of your life. Oh, you didn't have your childhood. Oh, we're going to send you back in time. And guess what? Nothing that you did happened or mattered. So I understand that there's alternate explanations, but I'm telling you, if you forget the explanation and just think about that experience, first-time experience playing through the game, you get to the end, you get sent back, and you're like, okay, the game's not over. I'm still playing. And then you start to play, and you realize, oh, shit, I'm just doing what I already did. That's definitely your interpretation, and it may be part of the reason why you hate Zelda a lot. I know you don't want to. No, but the thing is, were you not sent back to being a child where nothing you did happened yet? That's not true, though. Things did happen. There were differences. First of all, Navi dies at the end of the game. Did you play it back through the game? Navi dies at the end of our grand time. Like, your mission's complete. Like, there's a finality to what has occurred. Okay, so your mission's complete. Also, there's an implication again to her physical wound, because she sends you back to be a child again, and then you get Navi again, and you just do the whole adventure all over again. What? Navi dies. You have Navi in the second playthrough. What are you talking about? There's no second playthrough canonically. They send you back in time! They literally send you back to being a Kokiri again! Oh, you're not literally a Kokiri, but they send you back to the very beginning of the game. When you go back in time in the end of the game, Navi dies. She flies up and dies. That's why Majora's Mask happened. No, she doesn't die. Majora's Mask happens because Navi flew away. She didn't die. Your interpretation is that she died. Right. Explain to me this, then. Explain to me this. Point is that happens. The mission's over, and Navi dies. She flies off, and it's supposed to be this sad event, which she doesn't really die. Point is it's not a time loop. That's not really what happened. The fairies don't die. They just, you don't no longer need a fairy, and they just go off and live their life. She died. Where does the game say she dies? Your interpretation is she dies. The game never says Navi dies. She's dead. She flies off! That's not dying! What? Navi's dead. It is a theory, right? To your point, it is a theory. But it... Then why would Majora's Mask happen if she's dead? She's dead! You're not going to find... Majora's Mask happens because you're trying to find her. If she's dead, you're not going to find her. No, Link doesn't know what happened to her. But Majora's Mask is all about reading. So you're imagining something that doesn't actually exist. I've read Hyrule of Story, and Navi didn't die. So I don't know where this is coming from. Navi didn't die in Ocarina of Time. Navi, there is no confirmation... Where is no confirmation that Navi's alive? You're right. There's no confirmation she's dead, and there's no literal mention that she ever died in the first place. It's kind of like going through his dead theory in Majora's Mask, which we already factored on. But that one's de-confirmed. Well, yeah. Oh, A.G., I know what came out and de-confirmed it. But for a long time, he didn't. For a long time, he didn't. I love Zelda theories. But I'm the first person to admit that 99% of Zelda theories are just shit we're making up that literally they never thought of. Like, oh, you want to think Navi's dead and that makes the game more impactful to you? Cool. But that's not really what Nintendo was thinking. So what you're saying is Navi turns into Shortinger's cat. Yes. Basically. We have no clue if she's alive or dead. Basically. Regardless of whether you choose to interpret Navi died or not, that's a whole other argument, right? She does fly away at the end. There is finality there. The events of your childhood adventure come to an end. It's not a time loop. So you don't replay the game? Because I replayed the game? I mean, you replay the game, but it's not a canonical thing. That's like saying Xenoblade loops every time you play through the game again. So it's not a time loop to be sent back to being a child where all the events that you just did are still going to happen? It's different. How is it different? Okay. If I grow up and I'm 90 and I completed my journey life, someone says to me about to be in a child. But when they send me back to being a child, they tell me your sister isn't going to be born anymore. You're no longer going to have a sister. Sure, my life would be different, but I'm still going to be back to being a child again and living my life all over again. And Link has to go back in time or sent back in time. Because remember, Navi leaves after he's sent back in time. Right. And then what happens after that? The game doesn't end. It doesn't turn off. It doesn't give you a credit scene or a game overseeing it. Yeah, this isn't any credit. No, no, no, no, no, no. That happens before you're sent back in time. The credits happen and then when the credits end, boom, you're back in Kokiri Forest as a kid again. And the game just keeps going. It doesn't stop. It just lets you keep playing. And what happens if you keep playing? Yep, no, you don't go back to being a child again. You're doing the storyline all over again. And it just keeps going. That's not true though. The game doesn't save. And you go back to ripe a fight with Ganondorf. No, no, no, no, no. That's 100% how it is. You're right. I know you're right. You're correct in that the game doesn't save. But read what Zelda says and then look where you end up. You end up backing Kokiri when the credits stop rolling. Do you go back to the before the fight? Do you go back to the main menu screen? No, you go back to Kokiri Forest as a kid and you start the adventure all over again. I don't think so. But let's let the memory can be foggy. Let's let's look it up. Occurring a time ending cutscene, right? That's good enough, right? It's not the cutscene. It's what happens when it's all done. When it's all set and over with. Where does the game put you? Does it put you back before the Ganon fight? Does it put you back at the menu? The game actually says the end when Link and Zelda meet. Yeah, but more happens after that. Well, let's look. So, towards the right, Link puts away the sword. You go back to Zelda and they just stare. Yeah, they do that. They do that right before it does do the ending. That's how the game ends. There's no Kokiri Forest. I want you, you're playing Accurate Time right now. When you beat it, let me know when everything's all done. When it's done doing the credits and everything. Where does it put you? Because by the way, this is the key element of the split timeline. This whole thing about going back to Kokiri Forest is a very key element of the timeline split even existing. There is no Kokiri Forest. Like you don't go back to Kokiri Forest. Like that's not a big part of the end of the game. The last thing you see, I just checked it. It's with Zelda. You show up in front of Zelda. Like there may be a cutscene where you go home to Kokiri Forest. Dev Chills. That's where the game begins. Breath of the Wild is not the same. When you beat the final boss, it kicks you out to the menu. It does not kick you back to open your eyes. Accurate Time kicks you back to the very beginning of the game. It doesn't. Which version did you play? I just beat the game last month. It kicks you back to the very beginning of the game. It doesn't kick you out to the menu. All right, I'm going to finish the game in a couple of days and I'll let you know. All right, sounds good. Yeah. I'll stay still with you guys and just give me a Zelda party with all the old Zelda minigames. Bomb Chew Bowling, everything like that. Bomb Chew Bowling was the bomb. I love Bomb Chew Bowling. I wish I never won away. Anyways, I'm looking at the time. I actually got to go clean upstairs. It's been fun. I'm sure some people are probably yelling at me saying I'm an idiot in the chat. It's all cool. There's plenty of them. It's all cool. I just had this happen to me. Maybe there's different versions and different regions that have that did it different. I have no idea. So what you're saying is after Link sees Zelda, which is where the game says the end in text, you're saying right after that, you show up in Kokiri Forest to start the game again when you wake up from the bed to do your adventure. I don't know if it's that exact moment. It was whenever everything got after the credits rolled and everything was done and the game reopened. I was in Kokiri Forest as a child. Now, it didn't save there. When you back out, it doesn't overwrite your save file. You don't play. You're suggesting there's any gameplay? Yeah, game resets. Now, it doesn't overwrite the save file. You still have your save file right before Ganon or Ganondorf at the time. I'm pretty sure it just goes back to the file select screen and that just takes you back to right before the Ganon door. But I'll play through the game? It's been played over 80 million because of emulators. I don't want to get into projects and show how many people have emulated games. We have no actual figures on how many people emulate games. I think actually I can might be right. 80 million is a lot. Once the credits happen, you just go back to the main menu, which then just takes you back to the start. You thought to play the menu music and show the horse run. So it kicks you back to the menu is what you think. Yeah, you're a man of culture. You're a man of culture, Camelot. All right. Well, thanks guys. Maybe I'm an idiot. It's all good if I am. I'm not right about everything. Thanks for listening to our two hours although argument. It's okay. Well, yeah, I mean, this ocular timing at the end wasn't a big huge part of it. I mean, the remaking of it was, but not this ending. This was just kind of a little misrememory, maybe on my part. I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure that was what happened. Now I'm curious and am I really, because I can't, because last time I played it was on an emulator, so I don't want to do that. I should play it on NSO. But I don't want to get NSO. No, I'm not doing it to prove my, no, not happening. I'm going to, you still have an N64 somewhere, don't you? Andres, yes. Yes, I do. Okay. I'm going to play it on the OG N64 then. I was going to say Andres. Go back to the OG. Andres is playing it and it'll be finished probably. Yeah, I know. But it's also on NSO and being emulated. I want to go back to the OG. On the N64, see what happens. God damn it. God damn it. All right. All right, we're going to go. Paul Gale, what's up, man? We're going to head out. You guys had, um, thank you guys for, oh, we had a late $5 from Taker 666. Yeah, Taker 610. Gannon, what did Zelda tell you about your father? Link, she told me you killed him. Gannon, no, I am your father. Wait, wrong franchise. Yes, that's what, anyways. By the way, this ending, by the way, has nothing to do with why Ocarina of Time ranks so low for me. It was more so. I just think that everything Ocarina of Time did was pretty much done better. You did mention a, that that scene, I think that scene was amazing. That ending scene was great. But I mean, like everything else before, it's been done better to me. So to me, personally, like that one thing doesn't suddenly make this thing better than everything. There's two things I love about Ocarina of Time. Well, I'll say three things that I really love, that I give it credit for. I think it has the best time travel. There's been time travel in the other games, but this has the best version of it. I think it has the best soundtrack. The actual soundtrack of the game, classic. Every single one of those songs is classic. Which, yeah, others tell the games of classic music, but I really love Windmaker's soundtrack. But something about the catchiness of the Ocarina of Time one sticks with me. And then there's a couple sequences, Bottom of the Well, the ending sequence leading up to Zelda and Link staring at each other. All of that is phenomenal. I love Ocarina of Time. Arguing that it's not in my top 11 would be arguing which child is my favorite if I had 18 of them. There's only one that I really don't like, and I already sent that one off to be adopted in Phantom Hourglass. So legitimately, I dislike Phantom Hourglass. But thanks for that $5.00. Take your six, Tim. Hey, Phantom Hourglass, the item, please. By the way. You can find me on YouTube and Twitter. Just on dress restart. Which should pop up in the chat in a moment and you can find them on YouTube. R-E-S-T-A-R-T. Yeah, on dress then restart. We'll have to continue this Zelda debate and how wrong I am about everything later. Well, you know what's funny? On Fridays now, I have a segment in my show where I talk about things I got wrong and it's going to be hilarious when I have to revisit this and talk about how wrong it was. I mean, I need to play Spirit Tracks. Like, you're not the first person to tell me that game is awesome. Like, I want to, but how do you, without going back to it? I mean, I guess I could play on a 3DS which just still feels like old ancient technology to me at this point. But once you guys go check out Andres Restart, there's a link by Nightbot in there to go subscribe to him because you should be subscribed. If you're not, what's wrong with you? I think he makes better content than I make. So if you enjoy my content, you'll really enjoy his content. That's my thing. We have different, I'll say, we have different styles, right? Different types of content we do. More news oriented. You're better at covering news more often. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm more, I upload more often and do a lot more news stuff. He does a lot more conversations and what-ifs and speculation and discussion and he does do some news. And he has his own podcast. You guys should absolutely go check out. On Sundays, I would say his podcast right now probably gets more viewership than my podcast does because I got hacked. Oh, well. My viewership right now is literally cut in half. So it is what it is. Yeah, looking at concurrent, yeah. Yeah, it's literally cut in half and it's going to be that way for a while. Talk to YouTube about it. They're like, don't know when it's going to bounce back, man. Have a good day. That's just the way, that's just... Don't get hacked. That's the lesson here. Never turn your computer on and you won't get hacked. Because now he's a computer. Don't go on the internet. Don't go on the internet. Just live in the woods. Just live in the woods. Oh, you're already successful on YouTube. Walk away now. Before you get hacked. Yeah. There we go. All right, guys. You guys are awesome. Thank you everyone for tuning in and all the people calling me idiot. It's all good. I love having a nice little... Nate, you're not an idiot. You know what I'm wrong. I'm wrong. You're not an idiot. Then, you know, I don't know, I'm probably wrong on gaming more often than anybody, any other YouTuber. I'm actually surprised I have the following I do with how wrong I am on so much stuff. Every time I do my corrections now on Friday, it's like, God, I'm such an idiot. Why do people follow me? I clearly don't know what the hell I'm talking about. So I don't know why people... That's not true. I know that people like me and think I'm honest and they like the giveaways, but it's also kind of like... Hypersponsibly. Man, I am wrong a lot. I'm really not good at this YouTube thing. Yeah. Or hypersponsibly, everyone. And go follow on to the restart because he is good at this YouTube thing and deserves the attention. We're both good. All right, guys. Catch you later. Peace, everyone. Thank you. All right, guys. All right, guys. Hey.