 Thank you for joining us everyone. We are going to talk about open source and marketing and how to be authentic and Not feel dirty about your marketing and why you shouldn't feel dirty about marketing anyway in the first place. I'm Emily O'Mere I'm a positioning and messaging consultant and I work with open source startups And I also host the business of open source Which is a podcast about the intersection of business and open source and I'll have the rest of our panelists and reduce themselves Hi, everyone. I'm Nithya Ruff and I run the Ospo at Amazon We support the entirety of Amazon from all the devices and dot-com to WS AWS and before that I used to run other Ospo's like Comcast and Sandisk and Ospo means open source program office Many of us in this room run open source program offices for our companies to help companies Contribute consume distribute open source, you know smoothly in their companies Yeah, and I spoke with Emily about this panel in January of February I think and we said what a great idea because marketing is often considered a dirty word or Not to be done. It's more commercial, but it has a great role to play in open source Thank you Hi, I'm Yana. I've been doing developer marketing community building for 15 years as a hashy corp For almost seven years our open source projects. I saw a metric yesterday They've been downloaded 250 million times Quite wild and then I recently left hashy corp, and I joined a company called planet scale Hi, everybody Matt Yankovic head of open source strategy at Percona So I'm ordered the Haas for short because it's much simpler to say I've been in the open source base for over 20 years Former chief experience officer and chief customer officer at Percona We do open source database software and services so anything around minus Carol Postgres MongoDB and I also have a podcast so and Emily's been a guest so mine is the Haas so that's me talks Foss for you know, but for software and it rhymes which is cool. So there's marketing for you So before we oh please please take a photo and retweet so everybody knows we were here So some people didn't get that we would love my good side So the first topic I thought we would talk about is what is the difference between marketing a product and marketing a project and particularly like what happens if you are an open source company and Your product and your project are Related how do you like where's the line between marketing your company marketing your project marketing your product? I think you too. Oh, wow, okay come all the way. So I think that it's it's an interesting Split because from a project perspective, you're really looking to grow your You know, I like to think of your advocates or your contributor base You're looking for people to use your software that doesn't necessarily mean commercially viable that people are going to pay for it and so It's it's a funny space because a lot of times your free projects can compete with your paid-for offerings And so there is a lot of overlap and you have to be careful because you will always have that kind of constant back-and-forth On you know, like ooh, do we want to make this part of our paid offering? We want it to be part of our free and you know, you'll you'll get some friction there sometimes, but that's often healthy and And your goals are different. Yeah, right so the Tactics that you would use right to grow an open source project versus Trying to build a company right that sustainable revenue for an open source project you're trying to get downloads and you're trying to get usage and and people talking about it and For a product right like you need to show revenue and grow I Just to add to I mean what they've said, which is absolutely spot-on I think an open source project often is the top of the funnel and These are people who have either shown interest in the project and downloaded it and started using it and Then the product becomes more at the bottom of the funnel to me Where after using they say I think I want to use this enterprise wide I want the commercial version of it because It has more features or we want to standardize on this across the company and then so you converted, but you shouldn't go into open source project marketing as A legion device You want to create great experiences which then result in it being adopted By the way out of curiosity from the crowd how many people are familiar with the marketing funnels? The file thing is an interesting and we were talking earlier where I Kind of view from a project perspective There also is a funnel because really a funnel is what do you do to drive someone to the thing? You want them to do and in a project It's often you want them to not only use your product, but then become you know Just absolute fans of it. Yes, where they're going to recommend it to people. They're going to use it. They're going to You know talk at conferences like this and so how you make them feel so welcome as part of the community Helps drive that to become ultimately those kind of super fans if you will of the project And that can also be related to the contributor ladder because sometimes your goals might not just be advocates But actually recruiting more contributors and in fact in order to know Like is your marketing funnel working? You have to know what that goal is It's it's less straightforward for an open source project than a Product that might be like our goal is more profits. Yeah, you bring up a really good point. I Mean once someone starts using it Maybe a tiny faction of them Make a change and want to contribute back and then even smaller fraction of those say I want to become a Constant contributor to this project and be part of this community and then a very very tiny fraction become actually committers and maintainers So there's that funnel as well. Yeah, how many people here are driving like four contributors. That's what their ultimate goal is Okay, at least half that's a pretty sizable amount So, yeah, I was wondering how does marketing look different from an auspice perspective like you don't have a Product that's you know tied. It's not like an open core model. It's not tied to the open source project So how does it look different in that context? It's it's really Communications education awareness building inside the company for open source and open source tools policies You know resources The the mission of a lot of our auspice is to make it dead easy for our developers to work in open source And so we work really hard to educate them on how to work with open source And then a lot of auspice also do outbound marketing to talk about the company's commitment to open source to talk about the company's open source projects and Involvement in different communities For example, we are involved in CNCF. And so we go speak at the conference and And in your two to your point If you're any you if you're a user you should really be advocating Evangelizing and supporting the project in a broad way And that's a great way to actually get involved in open source as a user and speak at a conference about it And I learned that from Don Foster And the biggest challenge we had at Hashi corp was like people knew terraform or vault or Vagrant, but they didn't know like the company behind it, right? So we had kind of this really interesting messaging problem as well of like hey when we as the company Hashi corp Would go out to speak to our users. They're like well, who is Hashi corp? And so that was kind of one shift we had to make and then of course that the transition of like Hey, when you build a successful open source project had you then Right convert that to something like building up a pang, you know to having a legitimate business I think we'd navigated that pretty well, right? We always made sure we were never going to abandon the community Right, and we always made sure we did right by the community and we're always very like deliberate how we communicated and like The choices we made of like what went into let's say terraform open source versus terraform enterprise And we were able to do that pretty well So what about people who say we're just going to do Deverell like we're focusing on Deverell because you know marketing that sounds uncomfortable to us Not a time to my career. I've heard just a great product markets itself. It just makes me laugh. Usually like an engineer will say that Like if you build it they'll come yes You know, I mean if you hire a Deverell person, they still have to go out into the community, right? They still need a Messaging and and how you talk about it and like you still need marketing, right? You still need a way to like synthesize in a cohesive way what it is that you are offering and especially in in today's world of millions and millions and millions of products projects on Github How will people know about your project but but speaking to the Deverell issue? I know you have some great answers on that. He's ready to me You need both Deverell and marketing. You need Deverell where developer to developer guidance and support and demos and documentation and feedback so that the user experience is fantastic Which then they convert into advocates then you also need marketing to create The demand if you will from the enterprise to convert those usages into Wins and successes. Yeah Yeah, I think the biggest concern that I see in the Deverell space now is People who approach Deverell often think it's just about showing other people how to use their software And they don't tell them why so you get a lot of tutorials, right? Like so it's great I can use no JS to do this thing, but why should I right and so they missed that key part of the story and the Storytelling is the lead-in to that technical documentation to the how-to's to the tutorials And if you miss that you just have a whole bunch of documentation, right? And that's cool if you want documentation, you know more enriched documentation But it's often, you know the challenge for a lot of Deverell teams or even marketing teams to say How do we capture more people, you know at the quote-unquote top of the funnel which is a bad term But how do we capture more users? How do we have more people use our stuff be aware of us? And you know, they say, okay, let's do Deverell. Let's just show them how to use with no JS let's show them how to build something cool with rust and They miss why they should do it and why they should use the product the project and you know what what unique Problems and challenges doesn't solve and because of that I think there's a lot of excellent content out there. That's never consumed And that's why you know you go out onto YouTube and you'll see videos with like two views You'll see, you know blogs that you know don't get picked up Hey, they're great if you're really looking to develop this cool application and rust But you have to already know you want to use the technology and that programming language and that stack and then you'll find it Right as opposed to trying to inspire people and I mean Deverell is part of marketing, right? And I think Sometimes people get too caught up on like the tactics. Okay, I'm gonna go speak at this conference Or I'm gonna put out this tutorial, but it like there's like an overarching strategy, right? Which are which are the audiences you're gonna go after which for the audience? What are what would be the most successful ways you can engage with them, right and help build developer trust and then you kind of Community building in Deverell. There's a set of online offline initiatives and programs Right you have in your kind of toolbox just a bunch of different ways, right that you as developer advocates or community builders You can engage with audiences or reach a new audience And it can get overwhelming right because you could try to do all of them But I think if you have like a higher overarching strategy that goes back to what Emily said about having very kind of clear goals for your open-source project and then and then thinking okay, well, these are kind of the set of Tactics that will then help us kind of build that community and reach them, you know What's interesting is you know, you mentioned, you know Deverell is marketing and there's a whole debate on where Deverell should sit It's probably beyond the scope of this Yeah, so like we can talk about that, but what of the interesting things that I have seen especially in the start. Oh, you're ready, okay She's she's ready, you know, so But I think that you know in the startup space the thing that I've started to see people move to is before they hire Anybody in marketing that hire Deverell and then it's like well Deverell is go to the conference Deverell is messaging Deverell is social media Dev and so it's like but aren't those things generally what marketing would do and you're just changing the name now to Deverell because a Lot of users don't want to hear from marketing and if they hear from Deverell then that's better But at the same time I think that and I've heard this at a conference recently It's like oh those are just the Deverell they're just trying to pitch me something and I think it changes the feeling behind it because really what you're looking for out of any Deverell program out of any community building program is an Authentic connection with the users I'm just gonna ask the authenticity question But you you are actually reminding me of the euphemism treadmill like if you are doing marketing that is sleazy It does not matter if you are calling yourself Deverell or not It matters like what your actual actions are So what you're saying is we they marketed Deverell to be marketing well It's a so it's a it's well I guess I'm not even sure if euphemism treadmill is the right word, but But yeah, you know if you if just just because you slap another name on it doesn't it eventually like people Catch on to the fact that Deverell is really just another name for a marketer But Deverell should just have very different goals than like the rest of the market if it does fall under marketing It should have different goals, but so how do you like? How do you be authentic in your your Deverell or marketing or well, you know, whatever else you want to call it? I think to build on what John has said You have to really have very clear goals to me Deverell is about Enabling your user to have the best experience and to build on what you said Understand why they're using it how to use it what use cases to use it for and bring their feedback back to product management and engineering and making sure that there's a product market fit and It is purely that it is not Legion it's not meant to be commercial Because if you build that trust correctly and authentically then it'll odd It'll naturally result in the person saying I want to adopt this and I want to actually pay for it Because we get so much value from it But your goal should not be to convert it into a lead, right? I actually we had I work at plan of scale I lead developer marketing for them and we had our marketing summit last week And I just I had one slide like I had a 20-minute talk and I had one slide and it was does this build developer trust? Exactly, and that was just like I Made I spent 20 minutes kind of diving into that because I think sometimes Marketing right if we go back to authentic marketing right how do you market to developers right? And it's so hard to build developer trust right it takes many touch points to like build that connection And it could be one one moment right then you lose it and then it's impossible to get it back So what I what I have been challenging everyone at a plan of scale is any action that we do right any any Tweet any blog a product change Any way a support white when you reach out to people does this help us build developer trust? I thought that was probably the best message I could get across to our marketing team No, and I think that realistically the discussions between things like gated versus non-gated Content, you know like oh you're going to a conference to talk are you going to scan everyone's badge in the audience? Oh, I didn't do that. Oh, no, I'm not going to yeah But I mean those are the types of things that you start to erode that trust Yeah, right and I think that that has also kind of It's set up a little battle lines between the two teams sometimes right so you do get some friction sometimes healthy But you know you mentioned kind of slapping names and titles and things on you know We do that all the time and I think it detracts us all as you know as a whole you know So right now, you know, we're at an open-source conference, but there's a lot of companies that slap open on things that aren't open So you just got to be very careful about how you reappropriate terms yes, and you know common things that might work in a community space But don't necessarily have a place in the marketing space and if you do take it there It's going to detract from everyone else's activities. I Think another thing that strikes me about like good marketing is that it doesn't People don't have an experience of it as marketing when when you have you know either as a Developer on looking for an open-source project or a product or as a consumer When you see something that really speaks to a pain that you experience you don't think like that's a sleazy piece of marketing You think oh awesome. This is gonna solve my problem And like how do you get that is that magic? So at hashy corp. There were four pillars That we had that we based all of like our community programs on and it was like knowledge sharing Education Trust building and then the fourth one was like designed with empathy and the fourth one was really interesting because it goes along with So it's not doesn't mean just like design right when you like walk around a conference Can you you know can you find the coffee? Can you navigate but it's also? Like hashy corp just launched like their developer platform right and they deeply care about the like the developer experience Or for example when we did our our virtual conferences Hey, can you really easily log in? Can you really easily see the schedule watch the talks right so so thinking like that or and That goes in even from when you send an email right like designing with empathy means being authentic and keeping that There is a human on the other end of that experience that you're creating I said what that actually leads to another question, which is like where does marketing start and where it is an end? I mean, I know I've spoken to some people who say like particularly in an open-source context like DevRel is like everything you do is DevRel or Everything you do is marketing everything you do is like community because you know you have one team member And it doesn't matter if they started last week who is a jerk in your slack room or whatever and Like again the trust it's gone You know from an open-source project perspective The word we coined many many years ago was advocacy instead of marketing because you're advocating on behalf of the project you are helping People on it was a combination of everything marketing and developer relations because you Were helping people understand what the project is How to use it? What are the different use cases for the project? Who's the community? How do you get involved? What are the demos that you can use? Many many years ago. I've worked on the Octo project and we were trying to build awareness for the project because it was really fledgling and It started with all of these things and even writing use cases and data and the objective never was to create a company around it or a Project around it, but just pure awareness of the project and attracting users contributors Sponsors of the project companies that would sponsor and you know become members of the project It was a different level of quote marketing. I think Actually that leads to a really interesting issue, which is you know for those non commercial open source projects like they still need for people to discover them and Like how does an open source project like that? Get people to you know market it And understand like maybe it's not just a code. It's not just contributing code That's a contribution to the project success. So I have a so it's an interesting question because you know You asked, you know, where does marketing stop and and unfortunately people won't like this answer But it doesn't because everything that you do in an open source project reflects on that project and has a potential marketing impact now when I say marketing impact if you have let's say a Bug that doesn't get fixed and it's open for a year Yeah, that is a negative impact and that's going to impact people's view of your project and your ability to maintain If you are rude to people on slack if you shut them down if you you know post something on Twitter That is questionable, right? Like all of these things can have an impact on your project and so When you talk about how do you gain traction? It's starting to build the trust that we talked about with that ecosystem Be very open and welcoming and being very open and honest, right? So when you have challenges Own them, right when you need help ask for help, you know, don't be afraid I think that you know, most projects fail they fail alone because they don't know how to ask for help or ask for input or you know, tell people, you know what they're struggling with and The open source ecosystem is so so vibrant and has so many awesome people who are willing to help They just don't know how or who needs it and so I think that's really important. I Wanted to build on something you said which is You know, many people tend to think of open source projects as coding only and oh, I'm not a coder I'm not technical. I can't contribute to open source. I can't be an open source And that's the furthest from the truth by the very statement you may which is many projects need good marketing help They need good event help. They need logos. They need exactly what you were saying, which is how do you build trust how do you build communities and and it's missing and We need all kinds of people contributing to open source documentation legal and Marketing it's that advocate, right? Yes. If you are writing a blog that helps out the open source project If you do a video of a stream, that's right talk at an event Yeah, if you like tell a friend if you post something on one of the review sites that says, oh, yes I love and use this product. That's right. All that helps. Yeah, Mitch I'm just gonna one of the founders of hashicorp always talked about this like when he launched bagrant his first open source project I had no downloads and he was like, okay, like I built this thing and no one's like no one's downloading it and then he started just speaking at meetups and speaking at conferences and just being more active on Twitter and Like responding on github issues and just like and then and then he just started to see right the downloads increase And it was just he himself was like became a community builder Right and an advocate for a vagrant and that's when he started to see like the download numbers increase And it actually like from that right from his findings from vagrant The community building was ingrained in everything we did at hashicorp, right because that's like I mean, I don't know if any of you follow Mitchell Hashimoto now But it's just like he is responding to people. He is there. He is engaged And even now right like hashicorp is a public company and he's still just like coding and responding and that's community building And I'm really glad that you brought up the community building because I was thinking about it Because the other thing that people say when if they don't say I'm just gonna do Deverell they'll say we're really focused on community building and What is the difference the like the line between community building and marketing and you know, what's the relationship? I mean in a lot of smaller projects. I think it may be one in the same role In fact as you were mentioning Mr. Hashimoto doing, you know, what he did it may be that the maintainer in the beginning does a lot of that community building is attracting users attracting you know contributors Attracting committers and you know people in that Realm to kind of be involved in that project, right and in the beginning it may be the one in the same person Some projects will have a community manager who takes care of those types of things While the maintainer is busy focusing on the technical roadmap and then Deverell is more I've seen it more in the commercial context where If you're selling a developer product product or a developer project Then you are kind of helping your user use the project more effectively. So I think that's the delineation. I see yeah Yeah, so I think for me I kind of see Deverell as the role is to inspire Right, so you're gonna come to a conference and I want to inspire you to do something, right? Like don't care what it is But if you leave and like wow that was really cool I'm gonna try that that's what you want from the Deverell folks community is all about making Everybody feel like they're part of the large organization, right or the larger project feel like they are members of it So there's a lot more logistical side to the community side, right? It's a lot more care and feeding It's more akin to like almost a customer success role if you're familiar with that where it's all about building You know the relationships and making sure that they feel like they're heard and part of the community Whereas Deverell is they do that But it's more about the inspiration and getting people, you know, really excited About what they can do and showing them, you know the cool things and then you know The the contributor side sometimes falls into one of those or the other a lot of times in the Ospo type role So you'll see in a lot of organizations. You'll have three, right? So you'll have Deverell or You know advocacy Then community and then Ospo. Yeah, it's kind of you know, three functions that are the three pillars that kind of make that up I think One thing I think about community to remember is first of all particularly if you have some sort of something That's commercial like they being a member of the community has to be valuable above and beyond like whatever value you get from just using the project Because you're asking somebody, you know Even if they're just giving feedback you're asking somebody for something that's really valuable, which is their time that's exactly right and a good community manager makes you go from a Drive-by person who just drops off feedback every once in a while or just once and disappears To someone who wants to be involved in that project and get deeper and deeper Into being a part of that project right from user to contributor and beyond And I think the biggest Thing we to pay attention to is community building is a long game. Yes. So sometimes when you talk about Marketing right some of the tactics that marketing has to do Are really right to support the sales team And they're kind of like shorter shorter-sighted in some ways But with like community builders like the programs you launch like you're not going to just do one meetup program Or do a podcast for two months and then just cut it, right? Again all the programs you put in place You like you build upon them right and your community grows like the first hashy comp We did at hashy corp was in 2015 and there are 300 people that came to that first hashy comp Capital one was on the first people to talk on stage of how they were using vault open source back Then in production and again those 300 people again six seven years later. They became our largest like Customers core contributors employees, right? I think I think Jackie who's in the audience She's a developer. She was a community member then join hash group full-time, right? So I think over the years your community kind of grows and matures with you And if you kind of do things right that are just a bit short-sighted to that, you know to get a lead to try To convert that lead you can again hurt your developer trust and and hurt the community building efforts Do you think open source in general is a long game? Absolutely, I Think it is a long game and that's one of the reasons why it becomes difficult to convince companies who may be Very short-term focused as you were pointing out from a revenue perspective or from a return on investment perspective to actually invest in Doing upstreaming or being involved in a project because it takes many many months and maybe even years of contributing back to earn the trust of that community and be a part of that community before you can Influence it or have a patch accepted easily because Why should they accept it from you if you haven't been a part of that community or shown that you do good work, right? So it's it's it's one of the hardest tasks actually in in an Ospo and in open source is Convincing your company to invest that time and the money and the people in Communities that you care about Yeah, I mean the ROI for open source is sometimes way out, right? It's the right thing it's a good day But you know when you look at like the you know you talk about like that the turnaround and the expectations in marketing you know six to twelve months you want to convert right and You know you want lifetime users in open source, right? I see some people from Red Hat out here You know when you get a red hat tattoo that's commitment, right? And you know that's what you want out of you know your user base Maybe not you know a tattoo, but if anybody wants a Haas tattoo see me later But you know that level of commitment is something that shows that it's a lifetime thing and that's going to build the world like You mentioned you know Five years down the road all of a sudden. Oh, yes, you know this person's now a CTO at a company when they were a developer right away So it's about building those long lasting relationships So it's definitely a long game and a lot of times when you start you're talking to an empty room and You know this room isn't empty though. No, it's not Yes So speaking of the non empty room does anyone have questions? Yes, Brian Remember you So I'm supposed to repeat the questions for people virtually so the question is in a Part of the company that's like increasingly metrics driven. How do you show that something like trust is increasing? and you know How would what metrics do you have on that? Go go for it. So, you know, we at Percona we've actually focused on growing the advocate side So if we're building trust people are going to recommend this so we'll say we'll track You know people who talk about our products people who do reviews We'll you know try and make them feel like part of the community, but a lot of that's organic And so if you're seeing the number of active quote-a-quote contributors, but I'm not talking code contributors I'm talking contributors who are active in your community and telling other people, you know best practices how to use it They're they're contributing to the overall greatness of the ecosystem As long as the number of active people is increasing you know that you're starting to hit the mark, right? And so that's what you want to see is the growth of the advocates and You know, there's a lot of other metrics that you can measure that are predictive of that But if you think of that funnel, right, you know, you start with probably the top You're looking at how many people are viewing your content, right? That's super top and then from there you go down a little bit further. How many people have downloaded it You know and you know from downloads then you go, okay How many people are using it? How many people are talking about it? How many people are actively contributing and so if you can get down to that lowest level if you're showing growth there That's where I see, you know, probably the most value because I can tell you from everybody that I've talked to everybody tries to do it a Little differently. No one's standardized quite yet on how to make it happen. I think that's a really good way of Calculating it It's how deeply are they engaging with you as a company? Did they participate in a demo did they attend an event that you put together did they give you feedback did they Submit a question, you know more invested that people become the more they kind of get involved And so I think there are some tools these days that are measuring and tracking It's called gravity. I think the company I forget or Orbit orbit is the name of the company which is doing developer advocacy and developer marketing tracking and Orbit because you start with the outside orbit and then those users that keep getting involved keep coming inside and Keep engaging with you more and more and more till as he pointed out They actually have become advocates for you inside the company and outside and they start helping other users and so on and so forth And and in frankly in a open-source project perspective it the funnel becomes I Just saw it on github and I said I'm interested Then I gave it a star because I thought it was interesting. I read the read me and then I Downloaded it. I started using it. I started, you know submitting issues I Occasionally would fix something. I'm in the user groups. I'm in the you know mailing list I'm now a regular contributor I'm actually involved in the community building and road map and Volunteering more and more of my time and then maybe I've become a maintainer a co-maintainer So it becomes deeper and deeper engagement in in whatever field and you can track it. I think Oh So it's it's about redirecting their passion if you can right that's a critical thing Because they're passionate about something and what I found is a lot of people who are contributing or you know posting ideas They just don't know quite where to direct things. So they just think of whatever pops into their head. Yeah You know, I I did a little bit of time at a company called matter most who might be out But you know, I talked to a person who? Wrote a plug-in that really wanted it in the the core product to track the feeding schedule of the snakes It's not a very useful like, you know, it's cool to have it as a plug-in But you know giving them an outlet to put that you know that somewhere as you know, hey, that's great You know we'll support you on that, but if you really want to contribute to the core going somewhere else You know, this is how that that might happen So it's about redirecting a little bit and making sure that you can figure out what they're passionate about and kind of you know help drive into that because Annoying isn't great, but the passion is and so you want to you want to you know jump on that Are you asking about telemetry like repeat the question? Yeah, so just so I can clarify I do mean like how important is it to understand how they're actually using it like after they've downloaded what the heck they're doing Yeah, the telemetry part is really tricky because Telemetry is super negative. I know we have get lab here I know get lab you try to do some telemetry and it didn't go over terribly well, right? And the problem is there's this there's this need from a product perspective to understand how your products are being used Right and you know by by whom and in what space which is why the feedback from the community so valuable and why That probably is the most valuable contribution you can facilitate So it's difficult to embed telemetry. I know there's an open telemetry You know summit here that they were talking about I don't know if you attended that But there there's some ideas that are floating around there, but there are things you can get around The orbit of that so for instance, Abhi's back here from scarf. He does download metrics You know extended download metrics so that can help But really when you're talking about which features are being used a lot of it is you Building the relationships within the community and being able to have kind of almost a customer advisory or user advisory Type board where you can go and talk to them and ask them questions And I've also found that using live streams and bringing on people where they'll walk you through how they do things Oh my gosh, that's super valuable for product people right because then you're getting actual. Oh, why did you click there? I don't understand what you're doing like I would never do that And you see how people are falling into traps. So that's my recommendation. I would say plus one to that I would say absolutely. I mean you will you'll never really know what people are doing unless you ask them Well, I just don't think that's possible to have like telemetry That's gonna replace like asking people open-ended question build trust first. Yes, and then you have the permission to ask them Yeah, thank you I think we need to wrap up