 agree. Okay. So here we are, started recording gentlemen. I'll go through the reading on the policy. Linux meetings involve participation by industry competitors. And it is the intention of the Linux Foundation to conduct all of its activities in accordance with applicable ant trust and competition laws. It is therefore extremely important that attendees did missing attendance and be aware of and not participate in any activities that are prohibited under applicable U.S. state, federal or foreign ant trust and competition laws. All of types of actions that prohibit the Linux Foundation meetings and in connection with Linux Foundation activities are described in Linux Foundation ant trust policies. If you have questions about these matters, please contact your company council or if you are a member of the Linux Foundation feel free to contact Andrea of the Grove of the firm of Gaspinger of the Grove LLP, which provides legal counsel to the Linux Foundation. Hyperledger is committed to creating a safe and welcoming community for all. For more information visit our hyperledger code of conduct. So welcome everybody and welcome to Joel again after his meeting on the 23rd of June. This time they will show us EBL meets EPU what it calls digital made in heaven, digital marriage made in heaven. So Joel, I'll leave the word to you and for one more speech on this straight front seat. Can you hear me, Joel? Joel, you muted. Can you hear me now? Yes, I can. There's a bit of echo. Okay. Have you ever seen my screen? I assume. Yeah, we can see it. It's good. Yeah, perfect. Okay, good. Yeah, so if you call it a marriage Andrea, it's a match actually it's a it's a match made in digital heaven. First of all, thank you Hyperledger and Andrea to to invite me for well probably my last Hyperledger presentation for this year. I'm quite certain of it. The trigger for this presentation was actually an article I wrote and indeed it brings two key documents in trade together an economic bill of lading and an EPU and I will explain more about the EPU. So the agenda for today first we'll set the scene of it. What's the background because EBL meets EPU. It's a bit cryptic so I'll give a bit of background. Also, what is China systems really doing in this area? Then I'll go into the business case itself because that's of course the key part of the presentation. I'll also give some insight into the legal challenges that that exist like with everything that you try to do in digital trade today. The criteria that we've applied when we were defining the solution and then the last part of course is probably the most interesting part is a high level description of the solution because we are of course still developing this. We've written an article about this. We've done the design and the development of the starter. So let me start by setting the scene first because people will probably ask what is China systems really doing before diving into the topic of this digital collection. Let me first position China systems of course. China systems for those people who do not know us, we are one of the leading trade and supply chain finance solution providers. So we provide back office solutions to banks also front-end solutions, electronic banking solutions to the customers of the banks, the SMEs and the corporates. So that's how China systems is traditionally known in the market but for I think just for more than a year now China systems has established a core team of experts on I would call it digital trade because we have of course a history in for 32 years now working in trade. We've probably integrated to about every single system that exists in the context of trade and we've set up a TDS team. It's a trade digitalization services unit which is composed of business and technology experts on optimizing trade. The objective of this unit is to look at all efforts that we can actually have in the collaborative trade space. So whoever is in trade we all provide a piece of the puzzle and it's very important to understand who is left and right of you not just companies but also data-wise. What happens before you start getting involved with this trade transaction and what happens after it because ultimately if you want to optimize trade it's very important to understand the ecosystem you're part of get to get out of your silo as you say. This unit does not only provide services on China system solutions of course we love to do that to provide our services related to only China systems back of some front end solutions but that's not the case. We also provide consultancy and strategic advisory services to advise financial institutions, corporates, consulting firms, strategy advisers and technology companies. So also when no China system software is involved and that's important I think to really have an open mind about what you do in trade you cannot just focus on your offering alone. So we've set up this unit we've got our own blog we're writing quite a number of articles and one of the key drivers of this unit is the course supports a interoperability by design. It sounds like a bit of a marketing statement but it is something which is really very important to us. Just to give you an idea because if it's still too vague for some people we will typically integrate China systems will integrate its solutions with accounting systems with all financial messaging platforms whether that is SWIFT on FIN or MX ISO 2020 or two or whether it's EDI factoring for FCI for factoring business or any other financial messaging that's what we do obviously also integrated effects treasury solutions risk management everything to do its credit line management bank country risk all sorts of risk compliance the obvious one management information systems customization management system digital document technology AIML you see them all listed here and the list goes on and on and on and probably the ones at the bottom are the ones that we are probably now strategically looking at most especially IoT it's still for some parts in trade it's still early days but we we already get a request because we also provide asset-based lending and inventory finance services so if you want to start doing asset-based lending and inventory finance inventory is stored in warehouses IoT devices can be used smart chip smart share shelves smart bins smart containers all of those things become relevant the moment you start taking risks on financing inventory or financing stock or assets so we have a very open mindset in terms of integrating with anything which can use value which can give value to our proposal yeah the the obvious one and it's it sounds like it's a cliche of course but it's quite important before I show you the next slide which is a bit of a scary one perhaps but we look at digitalization as as really understanding all the existing dots that exist within the global trade ecosystem and then efficiently collecting them with a customer-centric mindset because trade has existed for not hundreds but thousands of years the core of trade and the risks involved in trade have not really changed so if people say we have a new solution for this or that well usually it's something which already exists repackage potential different technology platform or maybe by by connecting different dots there are not that many new initiatives really really totally new this is a reference to the article I'm not going into the article right now but this is useful background it's an article on our blog about well we call it a digital B&B that was sort of a have to admit a bit of clickbait but it was the B of course of bill of exchange and the B the other B of bill of lading so a customer-centric mindset and connecting the dots now I won't explain this entire slide and people can look at it afterwards on the YouTube they can get a copy of the presentation but when we look at trade with a customer-centric mindset this is what we are looking at mainly you got importers and exporters buyers and suppliers and their business is not it's not lc's it's not collections it's not supply chain finance though those are all means to an end they are producing stuff they have to manage materials they have to manage inventory they need a warehouse they use all sorts of services whether it's logistical insurance or financial services all in the context of a trade transaction and that's why we look at you know how does this data flow inside an organization and that's why you see you have typically the P2P to purchase to pay processes and on the other side the order to cash processes that are actually from a financial point of view the key flows and trade agreements lead to purchase orders purchase order leads to invoices invoices leads to trade finance instruments lc's collections open account but it's the same data actually flowing through the ecosystem not just inside the corporate but even if you go externally all post shipment services whether it's trade finance post shipment trade finance or whether it's logistical service an SLI shipping instruction whether it's to ask for an airway bill or a bill of lading or an ECMR for which there is a new protocol now they share a lot of their data with an invoice so an invoice is actually I call it the purchase order the invoice are quite important in terms of trade bill of lading is a very important document that it follows actually out of an invoice a lot of the data comes from the imports but anyway that's sort of these are sort of all the dots the dots that we will be looking at in this presentation are just a few because this is about a digital collection so we will be looking at a collection flow linked into a what happens with a bill of lading and an e-bill of lady actually and then of course the settlement because if you if you collect an invoice and if you finance an invoice and you ship the goods around for you ship the goods uh mentioned on that invoice of course you have to pay and you need to reconcile that so we're mainly looking at those dots here now the business case that we've looked at is a product which is actually quite popular but is a little bit in decline it's a documentary collection i'm not going to go into detail this is not a lesson about what a documentary collection is but from a risk perspective a documentary collection can be situated by an open account transaction where you just you ship your goods and you hope that you get paid and on the other side a letter of credit which is more more secure from a supplier point of view but of course it requires the buyer to establish credit with his bank so there's more payment security collection is a little bit in the middle it's a paper based it's a paper based procedure and that's why i think it's it's a very simple product it's a product with high potential that the paper is the one thing which actually is its major disadvantage because banks are being used as mailboxes to collect documents an exporter gives an instruction to his bank which is called the remitting bank to collect a set of documents and as usually it includes an invoice a transport document often a certificate of origin could be a packing list and a bill of exchange typically if it's the documents can be delivered against acceptance because a lot of trade transactions include are not based on payment at the site but payment typically 30 days 60 days 90 days after shipment or after invoice date which leads to a requirement very often for the supplier to get finance and that's sort of the business case we looked at and say how can we make this efficient this instrument more efficient i said i won't go in detail but these are the key things that we're looking at the exporter is the one actually who wants to keep control of his goods and the importer he would like to remain in control of his financial means as long as possible until he secure that there is this quid pro quo takes place i give you money you give me goods now what does a collection look like today i could have put more paper but it's paper paper paper first of all the exporter gives an instruction to his bank typically via a form like this the documentary collection instruction and he gives an instruction to his bank to collect a set of documents a bill of exchange an invoice certificate of origin bill of lady typically now of course we can automate this collection instruction and we have our customer enterprise portal solution provides templates for this that you can automatically generate there those instructions so there's a minimal intervention to pass that instruction to the bank we also support direct collections where even the documents did not have to go not have to flow via the bank but some good customs of the bank they're given a direct collection facility which means that the bank is implementing a way to generate the letter even with the bank's stationary on the front end system what the bank will do of course is they will do a check on all the instructions they will do a compliance check on all the data before the letter is allowed to be generated by the exporter supplier so this is what a paper collection looks like today two main types pay against payment and against acceptance now what are the weaknesses of the process because that's of course has been the driver for us to develop this we call it an e-collection product the first weakness is that in case the buyer is unable to meet his payment obligation there's not that much he can do because he sends the documents and then you know whatever it depends on where he is if he's on the other part of the word he could take two days three days five days seven days depending on times in COVID times even longer for the documents to arrive with his bank before they arrive at his counters and and then you just hope as a supplier that he wants to pay those documents so there's not that much you can do to put pressure on on the buyer the second one which I've already hinted at the delays on the transmission of this paper typical problem let's say if you typically think China and Japan and you have let's say a Chinese exporter Japanese importer or whatever and the goods are shipped it sometimes happens that the ship actually arrives before the documents arrive that can of course lead traditional charges you can have let's say the terminal is not the the container is not allowed to leave the terminal without presenting the bill of lading could lead to marriage charges and you may have to go to your bank as the importer to ask them to issue a shipping guarantee to release so it can get complicated that has been the main reason why an electronic bill of lading has been such a popular instrument and especially lately more popular but we know there's still challenges so a collection often includes those two very important documents a bill of lading which is a document of title which actually allows the owner if it's a negotiable bill of lading you have ownership you can take ownership of the bills you have to physically present this bill of lading the bill of exchange is another transferable negotiable document and it's very important in the financial world because it of course an acceptance of a bill of exchange means that the drawee is making a commitment to pay it maturity and especially if you got a bill of exchange which is accepted by a bank which is called an avow it becomes an even more powerful instrument so depending on the quality of the drawee buyer who's accepted it this is a very powerful instrument not just in the primary market of trade because it's an instrument you can sell so the forfeiting market is typically a secondary market for bills of exchange because you can sell those instruments so you're dealing with very a financial instrument and a logistical instrument which are actually giving a financial commitment and the other one is a commitment on the goods so they are a perfect set of documents to bring into a quid pro quo process but paper is too slow so we said it's pretty obvious yeah why can't we bring those two documents together so how can we optimize this and how can we resolve the weaknesses I'll immediately say before I start describing the solution implementing the technology to solve this is is actually the easiest part and I hope my technical team would agree with that but the biggest challenges that we still have today is that you know you have to be able to legally move from physical to legal documents the context has to be uh I would I say fully supported from an operational procedure from an audit point of view so what about those documents especially with a bill of exchange with an EBL we already know uh s docs bolero wave uh the quarter EBL there's there's a number of initiatives already in this space and the approach is to come up with a rulebook typically to create a framework uh to which the participants to this electronic instrument uh the flows to which they participate to actually make them operate in a closed legal environment by having them sign a rulebook however I think and that's one of the initiatives of of ICC DSI they're looking at the EBL how can we actually move this resolve this problem probably at a higher level to look at uh just like IATA did with the airway bill and they are now reaching 60 or 70% I think of airway bills globally how can the shipping industry take a consolidate those initiatives and actually resolve the challenges at at a higher level still giving the floor actually to the people who provide functionality in EBLs but but but but create interoperability at a higher level than the individual rulebook so this is something we work what we expect to happen how long it will take you'll have to wait and see but we are currently involved actually it's you see the word and on the left there uh it's not an or it's an and story yeah the the first thing is uh with the bill of exchange typically is that the bill of exchange for people who knows the UK or anyone actually who uses UK law because common law UK common law is is is applicable I think in about 40% of the countries globally and the rest is civil law and other formats but UK common law stipulates that a bill of exchange cannot be an intangible asset and that's one of the challenges you cannot possess an intangible or digital asset so that is one of the challenges so the law has to change so we are part of it for it for is discussing this with the UK government with the ICC in the UK as an intermediary to start pushing for law changes and there is a project currently going on in the UK and we're also signed up to this is it's called the digital assets project which goes beyond bills of exchange with bills of exchange the promissory notes are two key targets for this project the second one is uh so number one we have to wait for that this is uh we'll have to see what happens the second one is of course you can provide a contractual solution and that's one thing that's also it has done uh together with Sullivan they've defined an electronic equivalent of the bill of exchange which is compliant with English law and this is the EPU instrument EPU stands for electronic payment undertaking so it is the digital alternative for a promissory note and a bill of exchange according to English law what this file with the contractual wording might be instrument so that's a setting a warning can everyone still hear me because I get a stability problem with my internet everyone can still hear me we can hear you okay perfect okay the third one and that's last but not least yeah uh everyone must have seen those abbreviations at least 10 times the last week I think you and Citrao MLETR MLETR we we have high hopes on this it's it's challenging but it makes sense because this is a supramational approach because of course those documents that we're talking about those digital negotiable instruments are not just they the law can be different from country to country so it makes sense to look at this from an international point of view so United Nations Commission on International Trade Law is involved in this and they've defined the model law and electronic transferable records the good news is what Ifa is doing with their they're called the DDOC specifications digital document specifications they are fully aligning so discussions on going at Luca Castellani from you and Citrao between Ifa also with the ICC and also with Oswald Kerler from ICC BSI so so the DDOC specifications to whom we comply with the solution that we are developing and one that we already developed is is compliant with with this law the key criteria yeah this is just I'm quickly going over this I'm keeping an eye on time the key criteria that we've applied this is not China systems as a software vendor operating on its own and and hoping we will get some no it was a very calculated move we're doing this as part of Ifa we have to be part of a bigger organization who actually for its entire community which consists of many banks and more and more fintechs as well and is actually liaising with the ICC is liaising with the United Nations is liaising with the UK government with with the different ICC entities in the different countries so this is the way that we're going going for adoption by supply by with the community approach so Ifa started this initiative the DNI initiative which is called the digital negotiable instance quite a while back and recently they came to a framework a set of specifications to which Ifa believes technology should comply with so it's fully it's meant to be vendor agnostic it's focusing on interoperability it's developed with an open banking mindset so we immediately I think we I have to say probably together with our partner in Igio we were immediately very active in this space because I was immediately we were immediately convinced about the potential of of of of the nature of those specifications because they leave actually they stay out of the business aspect so it is not the objective is to reuse as much as possible infrastructure that exists today but use new technology in areas where current technology may have challenges so I'll explain it a bit more in detail but we've used distributed legit technology as a digital notary in the trade document space but without getting involved in the business data itself it's mainly a technical security based solution so this is a quote from andrei kasserman who's the chair of it for fit the committee we've implemented a first case already digital guarantees and we're talking uh to at least well we're in advanced stages in one country talking to local chambers of commerce uh on on on a digital guarantee product in a specific market important of course is alignment with u.s.c. trial m.e.t.r. now what other criteria did we define we're almost at the end of before I start explaining in detail what the business case is about what the flows are we defined some criteria for this this is not a solution in fact that only china systems can implement we are reusing our entire operating model that we have today for backups and front-end we are reusing it we support paper collections we support paper of c's we can we can support digital and electronic of c's tomorrow if we have to integrate instead of swift integrate with with the re-trades with the contours for us that's not really relevant there's a lot of infrastructure out there and banks are not just going to change that overnight so we are going to reuse it completely for the customer for the end user it's fully transparent where he goes paper digital or hybrid it should not really matter to him it's driven by by the relationships in the trade transaction same business practices that that that exists today just more efficiently same documents that of course use e versions were applicable and in terms of the icc rules which are very important in terms of in terms of trade processing in the collections normally the uniform rules for collections apply but in this case we we can use the supplement there is already an eurc supplement for electronic collection business so this is going to be an important case on eurc the solution objectives are the obvious one same instrument collection but fully digital no paper we're just removing the paper from the process faster obviously and the key element in all of this is the control the financial control and the control over the goods becomes a real time control and that's what you lose of course if the ownership or the financial commitment is based on a piece of paper which can even get lost that's that's wrong so we're now going to give through digital interaction real kind of control over those bills of lading and bills of a change more cost effective more secure obvious ones now on the next slide now this is don't worry uh don't worry i i it looks complicated but it is not uh this is the case this is one of the three cases that was submitted uh via itfa and via through the icc in the uk as an intermediate to the uk government the uk government is really pushing initiatives in the uk to support to support its exporters um in in in financing trade streams uh with limited with as limited as possible dependency on paper so the uk government is pushing this and that is why itfa presented three cases three business cases and this was the first one actually uh it's it's it's it's the business case is the finance of an exporter based on a bill of exchange being accepted by an importer or the importer's bank but in a fully digital flow the ebl it was actually not part of it originally of the case that's why you see i've added it here number six because that's where we've introduced the quid pro quo i'll briefly explain what happens because i do not know how many people know trade here but the situation is this an exporter ship goods to an importer now he wants to collect the funds for those goods but he wants to retain control as much as possible while getting a financial commitment and he doesn't want to work with an lc because an lc is too complicated the importer does not want to not see because he needs a credit line etc etc so what is have what is the business case here the setup is that the bank is first of all because usually those are term bills let's say 30 60 90 days acceptance or invoice date or even 120 days whatever depending on the parties involved and the bank grants his exporter a bill of exchange a finance facility or a discount facility instead of just collecting invoices the exporter is going to also create an export collection instruction but with a finance request so he's immediately going to ask his bank do you want to finance me for this invoice and this bill of lading because of course the shipment by by by c the documents involved are typically an invoice a bill of lading and a bill of exchange so he's going to request finance the bank is going to check the exporter's facility whether he has a finance facility and that could be tied into specific counterparts because the quality of the importer or the importer's bank if they accept the draft is of course relevant to take the risk if they accept if they say yes we're going to give you got a finance you what will happen here and that's where we'll use digital document technology of our partner inigio and this is where we're using blockchain we will be creating the bank will be creating a digital bill of exchange using trace original is the software provided by our partner inigio so inigio is the the trace original is the other software which is compliant with the detox specification of it so they're creating a digital bill of exchange and they're going to present this bill of exchange for signing but because a bill of exchange needs to be legally signed by the drawer the exporter and they will also ask the exporter to endorse the bill of lading to the bank what does that mean that the bank will become the assignee of the funds it means I'm going to only finance you if I become the beneficiary of this bill of exchange if it gets paid so there is sort of a transfer of ownership and the rights to the funds actually from the exporter to the bank they digitally sign it we're integrating this with digital signature software because we're doing this in Europe at this point we we work with Signicat so we're using digital signatures to actually support digital signing here so the endorsement takes place at that point in time a digital collection will be presented to the importer so this digital instrument will be presented to the importer for acceptance and he can then in it and then this is where the quid pro quo takes place because we're going to send of course additional information that will become clear on the next slide we will present the entire collection with references to the documents not the paper documents but references to the digital documents to the importer and this is where the quid pro quo takes place the product is entirely based and you go back to the first slide ebl against epu what is happening here is the collection is based on the importer has to accept if he accepts the bill of exchange the bank will transfer ownership of the goods they will change the holder of the bill of lading typically from themselves because usually the banks if they take the goods as collateral they could be a pledge this is typically ebl functionality they could take they could take a pledge on the goods and they're then empowered to actually change the holder or change remove the pledge and actually make the important the beneficiary or the owner of the bill of lading so the exchange the quid pro quo is you accept the exchange I give you control of the goods but in a fully digital real-time interaction based flow so when that happens an instruction is given and that's where currently there's many ebl well there's about six seven ebl providers but we started discussions at this point with bolero on this we had a chat with yakko and raymond on this last week we're going to have an api based release of goods by connecting directly to boleros ebl title registry platform so this will be done fully digitally the rest of the flow of courses after that then the moment that this happens of course the bank can provide the finance yeah they could do it pre acceptance but usually banks will not take the risk the moment that the bill of exchange gets accepted by the importer in his bank at that point in time the remitting bank is i'm going to give you money 80 90 95 or even 100 percent depending on the quality of the drawy they're going to provide finance the rest of the flow is actually the presentation for collection and the payment will integrate this also with the payment flow so that we can reconcile this at the end but the key thing here is we use distributed legit technology here as a digital notary because we have to make sure there is no duplication of bills of lading no duplication of bills of exchange the duplication of the bill of lading that's controlled by the ebl provider the duplication of the bill of exchange and the transfer of ownership all the functions on the bill of exchange are managed by us interacting giving instructions to uh to the digital notary the dlt digital notary provided by an ideal persuasion so this is the digital collection flow now the last one is probably where it all comes together and now i yeah this is where you'll have to open your mind here because this is the vision that we have on how we see and probably beyond the collection itself you remember the slide where i showed all the paper on this slide collection order the invoice etc the way that we see trade move and i've always been a very strong believer that electronic invoicing and trade must come together there's a lot of things happening in the e invoicing space i don't know if people who knows pebble most people do not know pebble but if i if i say basware or i speak about tungsten i each country there's now about 30 there's a more than 30 countries in europe uh recently singapore uh australia new zealand canada us they've all signed up to the e invoicing pebble framework and do not underestimate the importance of this because all post shipment trade where it's traditional trade finance every trade transaction includes an invoice so what i'm trying to make clear with this picture is an e collection is actually is first of all of course it's a structure it's an instruction instead of the instruction on a piece of paper we're defining a digital instruction which is erc compliant it's compliant with swift md 400 series because the md 400 series by swift are used to settle our collections to create acceptance under to give uh advice as acknowledgments advice of acceptance etc etc the traces that's all that's that's that's swift based and of course compliant with a standard remittance letter which we have today the rest are the documents now the documents instead of we can actually include if you want we could include copies of a document inside a digital instrument and we may have to do that in some cases still but the reality is what we really believe in is that we will be pointing to dock stores or other access points yeah that's why for the ebl for example instead of us starting to develop anything we just have an api we'll the ebl piece of paper attached with a clip or whatever or attached to a piece of paper is changed by a reference to an ebl and we're just through an api connection the the information of the ebl can be retrieved or or transfer of ownership can be hand this is where we'll fully integrate our workflows with those of an ebl provider and these are typically the known ones for the epu which is the digital bill of exchange that's where we're integrating and there could be more yeah do not misunderstand we're not exclusive on any of those topics here whether it's bills of exchange or electronic invoice or ebls we're not exclusive we believe in an open infrastructure here we're depending on the parties involved we can actually refer to to whatever access point or whatever blockchain or no blockchain solution that the which is used as a processor or repository of those documents but at this point we're integrating with trace original to manage the the integrity the uniqueness the ownership and the transfer of ownership of the bill of exchange of the digital version so we're using this this solution for e-invoices we are at this point looking could be there could be more value added networks but pepo is emerging right now i know india is also looking at it but singapore there's a lot of digital economy agreements being signed right now and pepo pepo most people don't know pepo but look it up look the pepo access points and you will certainly see minus in belgium it's coda box coda box there's many in belgium but there's many pepo access points across the globe so instead of attaching invoices we're just referring using a reference so we believe in in instruments financial instruments being fully interoperable with whatever digital document infrastructure that exists on the outside so and if you have this open approach api based then you could actually like you book uh i would say like i do it for e-invoicing today my accountants uh my invoices i don't see any paper anymore it's all connected my connection to the payments to the settlements of my invoice it's it's a button on on my digital invoice i click the button pay now pay later this is also a trade needs to go that's why it needs to integrate with electronic invoicing to bring trade origination the entire range of financing instruments and the settlement have to come together so this is sort of the idea behind this this vision that i have with this electronic collection but with an open infrastructure mindset linked to ebl as i've not included certificates of origin also a document which is with where there's already an eversion uh so we're creating a fully digital equivalent of an existing paper in this collection today and we can also use if banks say okay we want to process it over swift if you want you can yeah you can use file act uh to actually transmit digital instructions or digital documents over the swift network that was it uh i'm ready for any questions that you may or may not have thanks joel first of all was very inspiring very interesting thank you uh andrea i see there's more participants meanwhile let's i'm happy to see that and some some names are recognized we we we have a good attendance today luckily you know okay okay so yeah if if people have questions here i think the the presentation can be shared the youtube video can be shared you will see our contact details like i said we are we want to work with well everyone sounds like a bit of a cliche but i'll i'll do the last thing a problem i'll say tactically we can work with anyone and and tactically we go where our customers go if our customer asks us i want to work with retrait i want to work with with congo i want to work with with dlt ledgers for us we will do that strategically though and that's why i make a different tactic as to teach you to teach strategically we really believe in in in a mindset that we uh that we have to look at how quickly can solutions be scalable and that's why we're looking at things like pepo because if we can tap into cooperate with e-invoicing providers e-invoicing providers for example they they get their hands on on invoices e-invoicing the moment you start financing invoices and there's a lot of traditional trade finance which actually hooks into invoicing it makes sense to me if you've got a huge network out there which is being increasingly being dropped by singapore and out more than 30 countries in europe canada u.s australia singapore new zealand doesn't it make sense then because every trade transaction includes an invoice you actually look at it at a data strategy where we can bring the logistical world together with the financial world in which the invoice is such a key document i'm a very strong believer of that so i see it as a is an important path through this interoperability not just within a certain industry but an interoperability between the financial supply chain and the physical supply chain end of sermon perfect yeah julien where you see it sound thing no i i had a great great presentation thank you jojo and anyone who's got any questions please ask or put it in the chat and we can ask it um so how how long do you think this is going to take and how can we accelerate it what's the call of action just well that is that is the question i think on every webinar the question we go on every webinar exactly the there's a couple of things yeah it depends on the scope of what you want to achieve how long will this take what is this of course i have to say that the initiative that it foretook with its d-dog specifications which are which aim to be a uncentral m&e tr compliant this is meant as an interim solution that's what we hope at least we hope that either well two things have to give either uh common law or civil law gets adopted but that historically has taken a long time the other approach is you and sit round model law for electronic transferable records gets adopted fast and now only we know modern bacharine is currently the only country other countries are looking at it so that's another approach but i i i think that you cannot wait for these things that's why we decided because i know what icc the aside i should not speak on behalf of of them but if what what we support is i would i say a data and document centric trade strategy not a platform centric trade strategy because a customer the customers the people doing the business all over the world if you take a platform centric approach you raise immediately all sorts of barriers from a competition point of view the strategy that is applied has to be document centric so i am positive i'm hopeful that you know by looking at the ebl for example as an industry looking at the ebl as an industry looking at electronic invoicing at an industry and then those industry meeting i think that can be quite a logical path if you set the target i'm going to change everything overnight at once you will fail so what oswald has as explained in terms of let's let's see what we can do to move from individual rule books maybe try to tackle at a higher level at an industry level by by coming up with the industry coming together on an ebl that's an approach if i understood it correctly that i am in favor of he invoicing the same thing now he invoicing the challenges because taxation policies are different from country to country but if i see the list of countries who currently support who started adopting pebble in the digital economy agreements with singapore i know that india's looking at it as well with canna with us with all those european countries if those countries i think which have a digital agenda and and and those other countries have a digital agenda meet each other all the digital agendas that you have on on electronic invoicing and electronic bills of lading so document centric is fine but then bridging it bringing physical and and financial together that's i think a logical path and at the same time hope that the change in law or adoption of of m&e tr will happen because that will be a major catalyst of course uh drill a question from martin warf he's asking about lc's that this is credit which are you know a little more complex and well and lc if if you dissect if you dissect an lc and lc is in fact a collection plus because what happens with a collection mainly is it's of course initiated or different ends a collection is initiated by the exporter you're collecting post shipment and lc is a pre shipment instrument yeah so it starts but from from a data flow point of view of course they they share a lot of infrastructure the lc of course has the difference with the fact it has credit uh it is tied into credit on the buyer side from the issuing bank so it's a secure instrument but it's it's within the same spectrum it shares the document so in terms of resolving it in in terms of resolving the lc you actually the approach can be the same thing because to make the lc more efficient and i'm going to be saying things which i'm not sure it was it was only but i'm going to be just open and and share what i believe moving an empty 700 today from from a thin network which is swift to blockchain it's not going to resolve the challenges and i will admit the data exchanges can be made more efficient more interactive than on a on a centralized network with met with messaging between different parties and flowing i i have dlt can be much more efficient but the elephant in the room in trade whatever trade where it's an lc or a collection are the documents so porting an instrument or the bpo from from the tsu network to a blockchain network what's up sorry it's not resolving the problem documents are the glue in international trade they enable financial and logistical decisions solve the document problem and you solve everything and lc will you know the e-presentation is the missing component of the bringing the e-presentation together with the trade origination the agreement is is what is going to change things not putting an lc on a blockchain network that is my opinion so so it is more complex why because the flows are more complex a collection as the lifecycle is very simple you present you accept or you pay so in terms of reconciling a flow it's much simpler uh the complexity of lc is mainly about tracking all the shipments keeping track of it versus it's what happened also behind the lc uh the orders the orders need to be updated but also shipments have taken place but if you can move if you can move to digital documents there then you can resolve the lc challenges as well that's my opinion all right gel i hope i've answered martin uh you can ask me more detailed questions i can be contacted on linkedin i'm always it's it's more a challenge to get rid of me if you if you start asking questions like that that actually get me to answer them sorry to break you the spam is asking it how does one consume uh the services been offered by chan systems do we connect or require a license and deploy on uh that's a very good question i've got i've got my i hope i've got some members of my technical team on but i'm first going to before actually giving the technical response uh i'm first going to position china systems correctly because in terms of our technology eggs and bills is our flagship product eggs and bills can be deployed on premise or in the cloud our traditional model of course because eggs and bills is probably one of the most connected systems in a bank why if you remember the list of systems at the beginning a trade transaction generates accounting entries we we we take down limits credit lines uh we post risk we integrate with treasury uh because we we we do payments we finance we need interest rates so it's it's we usually we're integrated between 10 and and 40 different systems in the bank so it is from from from a deployment perspective it can be deployed on premise or in the cloud we provide also microservices uh we have of course a microservices strategy to deploy our functionality but i have to say and that's something which is of course very a hot topic historically of course it has been done and is still mostly done uh on premise because of the heavy integration requirements to other systems which are not in the cloud yet so if there's an overall cloud strategy that banks or anyone or corporates have of course it becomes easier but the more if you if you create an orphan in the cloud especially for a trade system which is so integrate and if you have big volumes you have to consider that that you have of course your integration is very efficient if you don't have high volumes then deployment within the cloud becomes an easier decision uh but but in terms of the question i'm probably giving you the business person response but we can uh i don't know philis let me see where the philippe is still there in terms of consuming services uh you can talk more about that it's really technical question um i i think you you you you explained it pretty well joe so whoever has our existing application they can obviously um have access to this functionality and it is supposed also to our application via api so we we set up as an open api and then you can actually consume these services from any endpoint that can invoke web services if you want to integrate it in some other application or if you're happy you can use our GUI to perform these operations so all the communication is done via apis via web services even with the inigio stack we the bank should operate the node so for this demo who actually the documents they operate an inigio node you inherit technology um the whoever has the documents they don't need to sign up to any network or any specific technology they can just transfer the documents freely on the what we call the open node yeah so only the bank in this in this float needs to operate an inigio node okay thank you phil is that uh i think it was palm who asked that question uh yes it was joe yeah thank you i got most of it it was a it was a little bit um the line went a bit funny on the audio but uh yeah i got the gist thank you yeah so it can be both and like i said all our connectivity uh is is with apis um also with the blockchain networks that we've integrated with it's a seamless it's a fully integrated experience uh it's the way we integrate uh also with others with with the compliance with ai and mel systems for document checking it's all from a single uh window actually and we just we just integrate our service in in both directions uh with with partners to create an integrated experience for the inclusion okay that's excellent i think uh any more questions i think we've come over the time limit actually yep right it's past the hour right um okay yeah andrew are you there still i think we may have lost andrew oh i mean i just i mean julie just me she is right i think are you gonna wrap up now perfect yeah i would say we're going to end up here and you know give you uh goodbye and see you next week time in one week time with uh one more interesting meeting okay okay thank you from from from my second china systems for for attending this session i wish everyone a a happy end of a healthy end of the year and a better 2021 thank you joe thank you everyone right thank you thank you take care bye bye take care take care