 And welcome to Cooper Union, what's happening with human rights around the world. Today we'll be looking at the four freedoms address, then in today, and we'll be focusing on FDR's address for new action. I'm very fortunate to welcome Kirk Boyd, founder of Eleanor Lives. Kirk, welcome and thank you so much for coming today. Well, thank you, Joshua. I'm glad to be here. It's been a real pleasure to work with you for all these years and I've seen you in so many meeting rooms there at the United Nations. I don't know if you know every mechanism, you know every room. It's really good to be able to meet and definitely on this auspicious holiday in a way. It's a holiday for human rights because tomorrow will be the 80th anniversary of Franklin Dona Roosevelt's State of the Union, his address to Congress on January 6th, 1941 that's been now dubbed historically as the four freedom speech. Those four freedoms as we all know that we should all cherish our freedom of speech, freedom of worship and freedom from fear and freedom from one. Kirk, what was some of the ideas behind deciding on these four pillars that really promote peace and how those were intended to be accepted or in the United States and around the world? Well, first, I'd like to really commend you for having an episode or one of your shows about this particular topic because it really is right at the very core of this transition that are the beginning of the human rights period where we have this enforcement that the idea that there are certain rights that have been emerging over time is put into this brilliant formula. And I just want to start by saying that these four freedoms to me are the equivalent of E equals MC squared in physics except only in the social sciences. And if we can look at the way to try to get these four freedoms to apply genuinely in all countries for all people will achieve similar great results. So that's a bit of the background. Do you want me to talk a bit about that particular moment when he was preparing to speak on them? I mean, it was historic, right? It was the 77th Congress. He just got elected to his third term as president. And so, you know, it's quite a time. It's right on the precipice. There are wars going on all around. And he kind of was making a call to the conscience of the country to really understand how in many ways these four freedoms are really in a way universal freedoms that all people around the planet possess. And so maybe you could share a bit about that inspiration and what, you know, Roosevelt was dealing with on the domestic front, but also globally. And then maybe elaborate a bit on those four freedoms, what those entail. The freedom. I'll take that in smaller pieces because I always like having discussions with you. That first piece that I'd like to have to talk about is when he was actually giving the speech and the lead up to that moment because you're quite right that he had a universal vision and he can see that already wars were raging with Japan, against China and Germany and Europe. And so at this point, he was already thinking beyond war and trying to figure out how humanity could come together universally, which is quite remarkable. So there was a sense of going at this point that he was trying to prepare a mindset for the type of world that he wanted to have. So you're right, it's quite universal. And the story that I'd like to give that I think you and I have talked about in the past is when he was getting prepared to tell his poor, give his poor freedom speech there before Congress. And so it's a joint session of Congress and they brought him the speech and he's got it there in front of him and the four freedoms are built right there into the speech. And so you can see, he could see all four of them and he got out his pen and after each of them, after freedom of speech, he wrote for everywhere in the world, right? And then after freedom of religion, everywhere in the world, same for freedom of want and freedom from fear. And when his aid saw that he had handwritten this, they said, hey, wait a minute, Mr. President, the people in America don't care about what's happening with the people in Java. And I love this because FDR, his response was, they better, those were his words, they better because we're all in this together and he refused to take out that addition and he actually read each of those four freedoms with that addition, everywhere in the world attached to them. So you're quite right about the universality and if it's one of the key things, it's one of the reasons why I started off by saying it's such an important formula because the way that he did it, it truly is a formula. And it is exciting when you look at it because I think it ended being a seven draft speech. So as we all know, state unions go through many drafts, but it was only in the fourth draft that then he asked his assistants at state department as when we had presidents that worked with state and appreciated the wisdom of people who have been diplomats for decades. And he said, I've got an idea and it was this idea for a peroration, the final closing section. And then they said he actually just said it from the top of his head, the same way that Martin Luther King came up with I have a dream certain parts, it just resonated with him. And he sat back in his swivel chair and he said, these four freedoms. And I think what's exciting about these four freedoms is they're civil and political and they're economic, social and cultural. And definitely it's something we can look at as we're going through this portal of the pandemic and hoping 2021 is worth, you know, in a way moving forward in a positive way in solidarity with everyone, realizing how interconnected all of our lives are not only in each community in each city across the country but around the world when we face this pandemic in a way when he talked about it, he said, you know, these are the four freedoms, that freedom of speech that everyone has to be able to be able to share and share and give their values that they were able to then have freedom of worship to be able to be practicing those religions of respect. And then the freedom from fear, talking about it in many ways that I know you addressed in one of your publications how much we spend on the military and how much it goes into the budget in a way that freedom from fear and then also freedom from want, all those economic, social and cultural rights that we're dealing with today in 2021, with we look at the right to housing, the right to water, the right to healthcare, education, we can see how it's all connected. Yeah, I think that's really true, that it was all connected and that was in his mind. And so you're talking about the universality of rights as well as logistically with all countries. And he really, and Eleanor too, who was a big influence on this particular speech and on him really saw those freedom from want and an equal status with the freedom of religion and freedom of speech. And so that's really a quite significant thing as they were given similar importance. I think that's a great transition as well because unfortunately he did pass away before the UN Charter was created but Eleanor Roosevelt did go as a delegate. And she remembered his words about fighting fascist regimes and rallying public support for that. But then also the idea of a universal declaration of human rights and putting human rights in the UN Charter which of course was established where you're based there in San Francisco and really having that spirit of San Francisco where we just celebrated last year the 75th anniversary and that she pushed to have those important words, those seven mentions of human rights. And maybe you could share a little bit about what happened in San Francisco in 1945 and how she continued and built on those four freedoms in his speech that also then went into the Atlantic Charter that Churchill also worked on with Roosevelt but as she worked in the Charter to make sure that these ideas became inspiration that then became an initiative and built this international institutions. Yes, there are two things in San Francisco that I'd like to focus on in particular. One of them is that outside the building with these bold colors, they had four columns that they identified as the four freedoms. And so as you had these delegates from all over the world coming together and streaming into the War Memorial Opera House which we've been to together before, they went by these four pillars. And so the four freedoms were very much a core piece as they began. Now the second part I'd like to also mention is that something that you're well familiar with is at the closing ceremony of the United Nations Charter then having thought about the four freedoms throughout this process, you have President Truman stand up in front of the entire packed opera house or the closing ceremony and tell them the first thing we're going to do is prepare an international bill of rights. So that in that way they were really envisioning not just those four freedoms as declarations or aspirational things, but the rights that were truly enforceable and then after that Truman went so far as to say and these rights, they'll have the same forces our bill of rights does in the United States meaning we're thinking about making them our former, our past friend Frank Newman, making them juridical, making them enforceable. And so those are the two things that those four freedoms at the beginning and making them enforceable at the end. And it was exciting to see U.S. leadership at that time because you then see a president and first lady then go to the world and say, this is part of our founding principles, but more importantly for everyone. And she then would continue as she became the chair of the commission on human rights organizing and negotiating this important universal declaration of human rights which was adopted December 10th in Paris. And I think you also could maybe build on as well. She would always advocate for the passage of the universal declaration of human rights and then talk about the importance and refer to the four freedoms when advocating during those negotiations with all the countries that no country opposed and it was adopted unanimously with some countries just abstaining but the diplomacy and the leadership of an American at that point to then make sure that we move forward to once again really, in a way put those words never again to be a reality. Right, right. And those words never again were broad and that there were a lot of things that they were given for most everyone's mind of course are the terrible concentration camps but also it was fascism in general and Eleanor all the way back the moral basis for democracy when she was writing back in 1936 these four freedoms and so when she came to be the chair of this commission it was almost like the fulfillment I have been reading these biographies and you can see how now through the thirties she was out there at the forefront against segregation going around the south and having the KKK put a bounty on her head $25,000 and so she and then when it came to housing, healthcare and all these other things that freedom from watt pieces and she was really active with Franklin on those as well. So what I'm getting at here is this UDHR was something that I think was really a coming to fruition moment for her. She was a great leader but she had also built on that for all those years. And so then when she went and used the four freedoms as that basis I just think she carried a gravitas with her that really that's what made her the first lady for the world. Yeah, I think that's a really a great point because she really started on all three levels that you have to advocate for human rights. She did at the community level like you said, focusing on housing as a human right. Really demanding that as a fundamental freedom that it's required and that the government not only has civil and political rights but must recognize the economic, social and cultural rights and how imperative they are. And then besides that, you know when she was then negotiating and building it out she realized in a way this was the moral architecture for how humanity should move forward together because then this would be in a way the way that we'll then at the country level adopt public policy but then also inform policy and multilateralism pointing out how multilateralism really matters. And that was brought up very much so in San Francisco saying that if anyone's rights are violated we all have a duty and a responsibility to stand in solidarity with them but then the idea of her coming up with the declaration to be able to have 30 articles looking at so many that you've been very involved with even at the Supreme Court to fight for those as well as the environmental rights that you've been working on with the forest and also realizing what human rights is it's a floorboard that no one should ever fall below but it's also what we aspire to it's the horizon we aim for. And maybe you can share a bit about some of those important struggles that you've been involved with as we lead up to some of the cool campaigns that Eleanor lives is currently engaged with. Sure, I'd like to but just first I'd like to highlight for all the viewers that it's always just a limited amount that you can take out of a discussion like this but I hope they carry with them those two words that you just use moral architecture because it's really a profound encapsulation of what they were up to. They really did feel that the recognition of these economic and social rights on a par with civil and political that was a moral architecture. Creating that well-being made for well-being on a planet and not just for humans but also for species. They didn't talk about the environment as much as we do today but still it was part of an earth community. So I think that's a great itch mark for us. And then to move into the segue of to what we're doing today and how that's why I like this conversation so much is because the trick here is someone that we both knew David Karen when he was a professor at Berkeley Law School talked about looking back in order to go forward. And I really liked that that's what we're doing in this show too is that we look back in order to go forward and figure out how we can continue this moral architecture because we're in such dire need of it right now that it's really an exciting time to try to do that. Yeah, I mean, when you look at what she was calling for and pushing for that it was in a way saying that each individual can be a catalyst for social change looking at her life and the issue she was involved with at the community, country and then global civil society level eventually and then also that what type of systems can be created that then ensure societal justice. And I think that gets into the aspect you talked about enforceability of equality. And so when she was looking at that the idea that Eleanor had that still lives today and resonates with all of us is that each person can be a spark for social justice that each person can be a life for rights. And maybe you can share how Eleanor lives is mobilizing today to make sure that before freedom speech is alive and well but also the 30 articles of the UDH aren't working towards making sure that everyone has rights as Franklin said, everywhere on earth. You know that for this transition of looking back to go forward, one of the main things with our Eleanor lives and what the lights for rights campaign is to get people to all focus together. To actually regain because Eleanor was a movement builder. Okay, this is really clear in her biographies where she was determined that she was going to build an international movement behind rights. She didn't just want to have the governments because she knew how difficult it would be to get the governments to do anything unless there was a movement behind them. So this is what we're doing with the Eleanor lives. We've got the spinning globe. I know that you've seen it. You're on it that when an individual that we hope some of the viewers here today will do this they go to the Eleanor lives.org, right? And there's a spinning globe you put in your name and your country and wherever you are is spark of light goes off. And that's our lights for rights campaign. And it's not just individuals because now one of the things and she actually interesting, she understood this too. It just wasn't talked about so much but it's really important that the organizations, I know you know this from even at the United Nations how important all the NGOs were. And now today the business organizations as well. So on the globe, we have the green sparks or organizations, nonprofits and we have blue sparks for businesses. So that this movement that we're trying to further really we don't have any at all. But we're trying to further a movement that was all that's already been set in motion. And so we encourage everyone, individuals to become white sparks on there. And it's a part of an organization to encourage organization to become a green light on there and same for the for-profits because they play an important role. There are a lot of for-profits that are trying to make a difference for rights these days. They also want to be in a market where rights are recognized and protected. That's how we're going about furthering the movement. That's an excellent point because even in San Francisco, the United States was the country that brought 42 NGOs or civil society participate. And it was of course to make sure that they would then hold the governments accountable. And the best part is once they of course got there they know how important human rights are and they just kept demanding them. And we can see that's the role of civil society today to make those sparks. And as you pointed out, it is important that we do have an international bill of rights that exists that's theoretical in every country around the world that people no matter where you live in this wonderful world of ours would be able to exercise those four freedoms that if you're living now in Indonesia and you're fighting for these fundamental freedoms that you would be able to be able to take them to court if those rights were denied. And if you're living in South Africa which of course was some of the most that was really why the commission on human rights started to get involved with special procedures and special rapporteurs also as well as in Latin America. In a way, we need an international bill of rights but it's also exciting how the regional commissions and courts have been able to evolve. And maybe you can share a bit about why those regional mechanisms are also important. I'd be glad to. And Philly, it's great to have this conversation, Joshua because I know I've seen your participation in all of the human rights mechanisms. And those successes of those mechanisms are crucial because it brought us to the point now where we can start to make this transition to having greater enforcement. It's not that we're not gonna continue that it's that we're meshing these things together because enforcement really does become an important thing. When you talk about wherever if people aren't in Indonesia or wherever it is the police come and break down your door and come into your house and take you away because they don't like what you were saying about the government. It doesn't matter where you are the whole idea of Eleanor and all the rest is that you get to go to court you get to have a court order to stop them from doing that. And you can extrapolate that into the freedom from want too. If there are people without the healthcare then you should be able to go to court and there should be requirements that as part of the quid pro quo for the governments wherever you live after governments that help each other to make sure that all of humanity has things like healthcare because they're so inextricably intertwined. So I really it's good to talk with you about the enforcement and the linkage between what's already been existing in all of the human rights mechanisms with things like the regional courts that you mentioned where you can foresee and you can actually witness today because these regional courts are growing as you well know how rights can become enforceable in all countries. Yeah, and in a way it's a guide to the gaps. We're just trying to eliminate the gaps that exist. So we see the international it's good that they have the core human rights treaty bodies the committees that review those conventions and covenants but there's definitely a gap. That's why the regional bodies of course are working to make sure to add their perspective and you have ASEAN and you have the Pacific Island Forum looking at those in the future because they don't have one yet. And then even you see human rights cities coming alive based out of Rosario, Argentina was the first one that tried to say we have these rights and it was a dirty war at the time but they wanted to make sure that they never forget what happens when a fascist regime is in power and that the will of the people must always be respected. And I think that gets to the last part that we're gonna look at and that's that idea of in today's world we've seen a lot of amazing things. I know we can see that the humanitarian law has evolved with the Rome Treaty we can see a lot happening around the Paris Agreement with now nationally determined contributions and then that one gap that you're trying to guide governments towards now is an international Bill of Rights. Can you say how the drafting committee will be moving forward and maybe some of the ways that people around the world can participate because now we have it's no longer people in an isolated room writing and drafting but everyone can have a voice. Sure and I'd be glad to say that you're well-familiar since you're on that happy committee and you know that what we do is the value of this suggestion. So on the website, in addition to people going and becoming a light as I mentioned earlier, they can also give a suggestion on a draft international Bill of Rights that we have. And as you know, because you've participated in this process over the years, we've had 13 different versions. And so when people make suggestions as to better language in this international Bill of Rights then the drafting committee reviews those suggestions and votes on it and make changes accordingly each year with the new version coming out. So it's not steadily better and better but it's still not a completed document in that way, whether it's students today that may be listening to this show or it's professors, either way, the suggestions are given the same review process and they are incorporated. And so the idea is that over these next three years between the 75th anniversary of the UN Charter and the 75th anniversary of the UDHR, we're putting together this drafting committee and doing three more drafts until in 2023 on the table there at the Human Rights Council and before the International Law Commission, we can put an international Bill of Rights that not only is it carefully thought out and well worded but it has a movement behind it. Not sure that's the key because as you well know from being and traveling all those hallways in the UN, if there's not public pressure and behind a movement behind the work then the government's just chew it up and water it down and we don't get the protections that we need. Yeah, so as we go into 2021, it's that important part that it's building a movement with the Lights for Rights campaign but then also bringing all the wisdom together from everyone as anyone anywhere can draft and put language in of any of the articles that are prepared and also be able to participate and we have a three-year process, as you said until it'll be the 75th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to be able to collect the information to be able to have people share because what is important is I think as you mentioned, it's directly impacted people people whose rights have been violated know what's wrong and know what language must be included to make sure that it never again would those rights be violated. So it's an exciting time to see this moral architecture having action behind it and to see the advocacy campaigns with the Lights for Rights but also the drafting committee bringing in all the language and mobilizing together to make sure that we have a movement for human rights that respects everyone and where we can have a new sense a culture in a way of respect for one another and I know we're getting close to the end but I'd like to thank you Kirk very much for coming and sharing about the spirit of San Francisco and also that really dream of Eleanor but more probably the doing that Eleanor did and the work that we continue to do today. That's a great way to finish Joshua is on the doing and I do hope that the viewers will go to the website we spent a lot of time constructing that so that very genuinely people can not only become alive but they can participate as you said to create that moral architecture. Thank you very much. No, thank you. And we want to thank everyone for joining Cooper Union for the first show of the year commemorating that 80th anniversary of Franklin Donal Roosevelt's four freedom speech and one of the most important parts is if we know these rights then as Kirk says, we can demand these rights and we thank everyone for participating today and Mahalo Kirk, thank you so much. Mahalo Joshua. Thanks for all that you do for the daily basis. Aloha. Here we go.