 of it and initially it was more along the lines of techniques and then the last two or three years I've had some huge big changes in how I view things and so now I can actually tell people how I made those mental changes as well because I had to you know the thing about say let's say like Tom Dorrance okay he didn't meditate he didn't have mindfulness practices he didn't go to yoga he didn't do any of those things that a lot of people these do these days to kind of get that inner peace thing going on he just had that he just had it I don't think they knew to even tell people about it because they didn't even know they had it because it was part of who they were you know what I mean and that's a lot of talented people of that way too they can do things without knowing how they do them but this is not so much the doing this is the who you are on the inside thing which I really think is probably the biggest part of the whole getting along with horses but those guys were you know Tom Dorrance was like Buddha or Jesus Christ or whatever I mean like they were kind of like enlightened beings but they didn't they didn't like I said he didn't read Eastern philosophy and you know any of that sort of stuff but at a core that's what it was and so what I found these days is like clinics and stuff I start out I do a big old two hour long talk before even going anywhere near the horses about that whole I don't know the inner landscape of yourself you know like working on different things like you know like judgmental thoughts and just a lot of stuff like that and it's really made a huge difference with people as yeah how they get along with their horses because it's less about techniques and it's more about changing just how you view the world you know it really is and I love how you say inner landscape because it is a landscape and I also love how you say Tom Dorrance was just a being you know that and that's what he was he was just he was just pure more just I don't want to say pure because none of us are pure but pure being you know he just he was there he was present he was grounded he was he was coming from this joyful inner spirit I've never met him but I just I've you know I've studied him ever since I was a kid you know and and it's this it's this pure energy that makes sense to the horse it's so easy for them to understand and then it's just it's it's beauty moving forward but he then said um I I you know I don't want to kind of jumble it too much but he said as he got older he realized even more how much less it needed to be or how little it could actually take and I don't remember where I where I had read that but I thought that was interesting that even for him it was a journey you know it's not just just a journey for each and every one of us that isn't perfect and isn't good but even for the true masters it's it's a journey yeah which is inspiring because that means there's always room to improve which means we get to learn all the time which is awesome yeah the other good thing about understanding it's a journey is you can slow down yeah because there is no end it's not like oh if I could just get to because there is no end and so it kind of it kind of makes you and that's I think that's a big part of it it makes you happy to what's going on you don't feel the need to get to the next thing you know it's very process oriented oriented versus versus results oriented and people that I've met that were around Bill and Tom they said especially Bill very very process oriented and I'll get back to the whole enlightenment thing here the most spiritual the ancient Hindu practices was something called karma yoga and karma yoga is applying yourself to a task with no thought as to the outcome of that task that's what he did totally I mean it's just doing it you know it's just doing it with not doing it because this is going to get me this you you are just doing it and a friend of mine from New Zealand and I'm Jane Pike she's a horse riding mental coach oh you posted something recently so she was our mental coach we went to the world of question games last year but she posted something recently and she said if you're doing the work if you're doing the work with your eye on the outcome you're not actually doing the work yeah that's good but yeah so it's yeah it's it's that it's just that whole like you said it's it's just being present and if you're present you're not thinking about the outcome because there is no outcome if you're present you just whatever's in front of you is what you're what you're working with right yeah you know I've got two kids one six and the other's 11 and right out the front door or front door but my window up here I'm seeing her graze her pony and you know that and they'll they'll come up to the back door with the ponies and they will just leave them there not tied or anything come in the house do stuff the horse waits there no problem you know there's this kids have it so naturally and so so easily it's not it's just it's they're just being with the horse and yeah I call I call that 10-year-old girl training yeah no and I've had to you know I did that as a kid but I've had to get back to that because I was a professional horse trainer for a long time where I bring you the horse do you get it out you work whether you put it back you're training it to do something and I you know I kind of got away from that whole you know just being with them stuff and it wasn't till I actually stopped you know I stopped training horses for the public a few years ago and it wasn't till I stopped doing that then they really started connecting with the horses a lot more because we had our horses at home you know we bought a place we've got our horses at home they're outside the kitchen window here I can see them right now and yeah that's a you know is that a horse expo in New Zealand a couple of years ago and I'm just leaving this Friday to go back to the same expo and I had to do a demo one afternoon and it was problem-solving under saddle was the name of the demo okay and so I turned up for the demo and I'm waiting for the horse to come in and this lady leads in this little pony looking sort of a horse with a halter okay it's got no saddle on it and I'm like what's going on here she goes oh this is a Kamanoa which is like the mustang of New Zealand it's the wild horse of New Zealand okay and she said this horse is you know five years old it's been out of the wild for a year or something or other and I said can you ride it because all these people have come to see a problem-solving under saddle demonstration right can you ride him and she said oh yeah my my 10 year old daughter rides him like I said this I said does she ever ride him bareback and she said yeah and I said oh good well I'm just going to throw the lead rope over he tied off hop on bareback in the halter and I'll do a problem-solving under saddle yeah and see whatever pops up so I threw the rope over tied it up hopped on and as I hopped on this horse took off bucking down the arena some rotten horse bareback bucking down the arena it's a pony nonetheless which right now is easiest you know they're probably they're probably about 13 2 13 3 kind of slight sort of horses and I just this horse bucked down the arena and I just reached down to the left and just kind of put a bit of a bend at him to the left and he kind of circled around that went away and we got stopped and said okay well there seems to be the problem this is my pony buck's under saddle and I think the pony walked off at this point in time and I went to just steer the pony to the right so I just kind of reached down the lead rope went to steer to the right and this pony shook his head twice and I didn't let go I didn't pull harder I didn't let go I just stayed there he shook his head twice and I didn't let go so he stopped pulled the ground twice I didn't let go he reared up twice I didn't let go and then his head moved very slightly to the right and I let go and I said okay that seems to be what we're going to work on here this horse doesn't have to turn right asking to turn right he says no so for the next 45 minutes or whatever I just walk along I just touched that right right and he'd stop I mean shake his head twice then he'd stop pulled the ground twice rare up twice and he moved his head and by the end of the session I could steer him to the right big deal but I could steer him to the right yeah okay yeah so that was the session so then I got done and they have a night show at this horse expo and so I had to go inside for the night show and they asked me to judge they had this thing called New Zealand's Got Talent and so Vicky Wilson who won the road to the horse the last couple years ago New Zealand girl she's judging you with me and Dan Steers from Australia I don't know if you know who Dan Steers is he's Dan James is in the double Dan's thing he's the he's the other partner from Australia okay he's judging it too and so we sit there and the first was the kids thing what they do is they bring in some obstacles and it's like a freestyle to music some of them are at liberty or whatever anyway at one point time this girl comes in on this little pony she's riding it around and all of a sudden I looked at it and I'm like that's that pony I rode this afternoon that doesn't know anything okay like as far as you asking to do something he doesn't know anything but she's riding in bareback in a halter and he's going wherever she wants and at one point in time she was going to come around in a right turn and there was a walk the plank type thing on the ground so it was very narrow it was probably 10 inches wide and probably about 12 feet long it looks like she's going to have to walk in my longer and as he was coming around it's a right turn I'm alone this horse doesn't turn right I said to Vicki Wilson I said I bet you 10 bucks he doesn't go across this she goes okay so she comes around this right turn rides up to it and this horse goes like this all the way across there's some other obstacles and then she gets off takes the halter off and when this horse was on the ground it was a little bit pushy and pulling on the lead rope and stuff and she takes the halter off so now it's at liberty beside her and she's heads towards that thing again and I said to Vicki Wilson watch this I bet he won't I bet you another 10 bucks he won't go across of course went across this thing I'm thinking that this horse doesn't know anything he is not trained to do anything the aids don't work why why is why is he doing this and I'm like oh I get it connection and actual girl stuff she spent all her time in this horse she hasn't trained him to do anything but whatever she wants him to do he'll do because of the connection I'm like ah that's what I'm missing I've been missing that for 30 years you know I got away from that when you get into being a horse trainer you get away from doing that as a kid you know what I mean I do and so yeah because she was 10 years old I call it 10 year old girl training but she could get this horse to do things that it's not trained to do I can ask it to do that doesn't do it it's just that connection so yeah that's I really got into like yeah that's something you need to do more of these 10 year old girl training well that's so cool because I think that empowers people as well because you don't have to be a good trainer and we all have to be good communicators so that's something people could work on interpersonally as well as with horses but it comes back to which is it's hard I think initially in the thought process but once you realize it it makes it easier it's all about working on ourself and then when we turn it around and realize we're the only one that has to change that actually is a lot easier than us trying to change everything else yes yeah which is which is cool and I but I love that story it's hilarious but it completely illustrates that point about it's the connection yeah it's that intention it's it's where you're coming from that matters to the horse which is like it clinics like they've been telling people you know you it's all about controlling what you think about where your mind is and also you know and then your physiology from that you know and I I tell people you know if you cannot control you know like I recommend everybody takes up some sort of a meditation practice I say because if you meditation is just about controlling what your mind thinks about a lot of people think it's about not thinking about something it's just about you know you may have your mind focused on your breathing or sensation seeing in the chair whatever but it's controlling what your mind thinks about and I tell people if you can't control what your mind thinks about when you're sitting comfortably in a chair in your living room then you're out trowel riding it's a windy day your horse's head goes up his ears pop up there and you look up there and there's a plastic bag and a bush and you've got to go past it if you can't control it when nothing is going on right then I guarantee you're going to go to worst-case scenario type things your butt cheeks are going to climb up and your leg is going to crawl up and you can just mentally see yourself falling off and then you're like is it a helicopter or an ambulance going to come here and which hospital am I going to go to I hope I go to this hospital because there's a good back surgeon there and I know I'm going to probably bake my back when my horse spooks and and and on and on and on that's too funny yeah and you know people I've become aware of I've met people and become aware of people in the last few years who can mentally picture what they want their horse to do and I always tell people if if those people can mentally picture what they want them to do you mentally picturing that out on a trowel ride is just as good as asking for the spook you know meaning so you're going to be able to control what you want to think about you need to be able to control what you want to happen versus what you what you don't want to happen right right and there's that whole kind of thought of you might know what at the back of your mind but what are you putting out there really at the front of your mind and because that that is the horse you know the horse is going to pick up on on those pieces but a lot of times we're all living up here in the front of our mind and and if we're if if the bad things at the back of the mind are all sitting up here too that that can get us in into some big trouble yeah have you ever heard of um deniel barbie I have yeah so his book the ultimate of lightness he talks about have you ever read that book I have it's been years um but I have yeah he talks about your front mind and your back mind and that's probably where I got it yep that's probably where I got it yeah that's a very cool book because it you know the subtitle is the molecular connection between horse and rider and it's all about thoughts and energy and quantum physicsy type stuff you know which I'm really into these days yeah yeah so it's so interesting this is the other part I really like about horsemanship is when you get to this place in horsemanship it's so much about your life and these things that you read about and that the people that you learn from they completely they become a part of who you are and they become a way that just it facilitates so much growth in your life and and you don't even know where it all comes from you know but but you you know when it's right and and it it just it it's it's lifemanship you know it changes the way you are in your in your life and I think it's one of the greatest gifts horses can give us because I don't know that there are many animals out there that I don't even know how to express it but that can facilitate us learning that about ourselves yeah I actually think that's why they're here yeah I think I think you're probably right and I think that's why they are why they can seem to be difficult yeah all the difficult goes away when you really change your thought process about what they're actually doing and you know for a while now I've been quoting one dire when he says when you change the way you look at things the things you look at change I like that I've heard that and you know and it's just a thing with you know I really think there are no difficult horses um you know they may be having some you know people may be having difficulty with them but they're not really difficult that's they've been their last option because people haven't been listening to all the little things you know right definitely definitely and I think you know it's it's like what you're talking about initially that us judging that behavior you know so that's another part of us that we're saying that's bad behavior but really the horse is just surviving and he's surviving because of all of the information that he's gathered throughout his life to that point and unfortunately some horses have been not so good situations and sometimes that means we need to take a huge step back though from what our expectations are from the relationship and take a look at what the horse what the horse needs no yeah that's that's the big part is is not having that expectation because if you're having an expectation you're not listening you are like okay this is what I want to do yeah I really think it's about first thing is like I'm not going to ask for anything I'm not going to do anything I just want you to tell me where you're at you know like wait for them to tell you what needs to be done next as opposed to telling them what you're going to have them do next right right and sometimes it means you just go out and you be that 10 year old girl and you go watch your new pony in the same pasture with them but you sit and you just sit there and you watch them and you learn about them and you let them get curious about you but I think you know we're on a time frame we're checking your watch where your phone is beeping you know we're we're just rushing and we've only got 10 minutes and we feel like we need to get x y and z done and what's your recommendation for people that are struggling with that sort of thing