 Welcome to another episode of Faces of Diem, the space on Diem TV where you can meet other Diem 25 members and activists. Know what they are up to, what are their causes, what makes them move, and what being an activist in the ground entails. In this episode we welcome Anna from Portugal, Nicos from Sweden and Patricia from the Netherlands, three Diem 25 members and activists who have helped organize and support the Zapatista Strip to several European countries over the last year. Hello Anna, do you want to introduce yourself? Hi everyone, hi Nadja, thank you so much for this invitation to share more about the work we've done with this adventure that has been the Zapatista Tour for Life that has unfolded over the last several months. My name is Anna and I'm an independent curator of contemporary arts and I became a Diem member in May when I came back to Lisbon, the town where I grew up and I was looking for groups or movements that were politically active, vocal, and I had already come across Diem online so I looked for the active groups in Portugal. Nicos, your turn. Hi everybody, I'm Nicos, right now I'm living Stockholm in Sweden. I joined Diem 25, I think almost from the beginning in 2016, after the huge disappointment that we had in Greece with Susan and all this stuff. And right now I am doing like different stuff in Sweden, I came here to do my masters in 2018 in Latin American Studies. And yeah, I mean different also had been participating in different collectives and groups, especially after the Zapatistas, but also before and we are more like here the more everyday life issues are like many different social issues but also migration issues and environmental issues that also participate. Your turn Patricia. Hi, I'm Patricia. I'm from Diem 25 Netherlands specifically I'm in The Hague so I'm from the collective of South Holland. My advocacy generally are around LGBT, feminism, women and children in migration and I've been in Diem for I guess almost two years. I'm actually the coordinator for the Task Force on Feminism for Diem and it has been really great to be part of the organization to be able to reach out to other people who are like minded across Europe so that has been a really nice opportunity and moment for me and experience to be able to find other people as well across Europe and not just in this new home that I am in in the Netherlands. Thank you. So, we would like to know a little bit if you can tell us about the history of Zapatistas why is it so important for us Europeans to meet with them. What is in their history that we should know about for people that don't know that much about it. Can you tell us a little bit about it please Anna. So the Zapatistas are an indigenous group, peasants, anti-capitalist movement in the south of Mexico from Chiapas and they started organizing themselves in the 80s, in 83s and over the course of a decade they were politically organizing trying to gather as many people as possible and in 94 the first of January they decided to do an armed uprising, which was also a bit in response to the fact that the NAFTA was being implemented the North American Free Trade Agreement it was a time where Mexico was saying great we are entering the first world and they were just basically leaving everyone behind or ignoring the fact that these indigenous people even existed. So, there was this uprising, the people of Mexico asked for a cease of fire and after that, so since that time, they've been creating their autonomy and building this autonomy that encompasses their own governmental authorities and organizing. So they have local authorities, municipalities that are called the mares and then also the juntas de buen gobierno, the good governments that are 12 of them that are interconnected. So, and they have their own systems for education for health, food production and distribution. So they are completely autonomous and independent from the Mexican bad government. So it's a consistent work, it's a rebellion that has been ongoing for almost three decades and this is why it's such an inspiration and it's an important reference anywhere in the world for any movements, because they are an example of a stateless democracy which is not something you find so easily. And it comes from hard work, it comes from understanding your past, understanding that there were landlords, there were just exploiting people and enslaving them and they are a liberation movement. Do you have anything to add, Nikos Patrician? I just wanted to quickly add that we also need to see and understand that the Zapatista movement is a movement that is very anti-capitalist but also very rooted in race. It's very rooted in racial struggles because them being mostly indigenous people, the racism in Mexico is very, very strong, which is why it was also even difficult for them to be able to leave the country and be able to do this viaje. So in understanding the struggles of the Zapatistas, we also have to root it very strongly in anti-colonial and race dialogues and struggles. So I think that's something we need to put into mind when we're also reading or hearing about them and hearing about their struggles. And also I would like to add something for the history if I can, that it's very important like the dates in order to come back to why they decided to do this trip, just to make some connections. So in 1996, they made the big invitation to thousands of people all over the world to go to Chiapas and they actually created the new international because more than 3,000 people went there. And they started from then, from that point, actually started the big under-globalization movements throughout the world during the late 90s and the beginning of the new century. Like the Genoa movement, all these Katharine, the Ojipai movements. And after that, many years after, as they continued growing, they made the next big step in 2018 when they decided that they will send a representative, like a candidate from the National Indigenous Congress in order to participate in the elections, the General Elections of Mexico in 2018. And they sent Maria the Jesus Patricio Martinez. And after that, which was a big thing and a big decision for the Sabatistas, they decided to do a next step, which was to come all over the world to visit all over the world. And the first stop was Europe, because the time has come as they believe and as we all know that there is no time left and we need to act all together. We face the same problems, the globalized problems, and they came to talk and they will visit all the other continents as well in order to talk and inspire and share experiences and be inspired by all the people who fight for different alternatives. Thank you, Nikos. As we are discussing this, who are the groups in Europe that the Sabatistas spoke more to? And who do you think they can really relate to if we take in consideration the European context and the European actual problems with democracy, technologicalism, et cetera? Portugal was actually the third zone, so we were the last to be visited together with Spain. But here in Portugal, for example, many of, so first the Sabatistas said they want to come to Europe and they asked the organizers that they want to meet with Europe to the left and from below. So this is also what our task was to find the groups and movements and collectives who wanted to meet with Sabatistas and invited them. And these groups were usually linked to movements that have been ongoing for a while and here in Portugal we had one month of the visit of the two groups of Sabatistas who went from the north to the south and starting with the big anti-mining movement that is happening in the north because of the prospects of lithium mining. And this is a big struggle because of course we know lithium is something that is very sought after now and it will be really difficult to avoid. And this to happen in Portugal, but people are fighting for it and it's a struggle for the lands, for the rights of not polluting, not destroying. And this was a very important meeting, a series of meetings that happened. So also environmental struggles, not only in the north but in the entire country, this was a topic that followed. Another one is anti-racism here in Lisbon, especially in the cities. That was a big topic as well because there are many active groups. So there was even, for example, a Pan-Africanist conference that happened here in Lisbon. There's also trans-seminism. There was two times we had meetings with only women or trans women that happened in Coimbra, one in Lisbon. Those were closed events. Or groups, for example, Casa de here in Lisbon that hosts transgender people and they had a close meeting with them as well. And it was really interesting to see also this idea of inclusiveness that exists in the Sabatista communities because they just don't differentiate people like that in this way. For them, it doesn't even exist. As long as you're in the struggle, you're my good friend. Yes, so it was these topics, trans-seminism, environmental, anti-racism, anti-capitalist groups here in Portugal. Would you like to share your experiences, Nikos and Patricia? You mean the same question with which kind of groups participated? Yeah, exactly. How did the Sabatistas relate to groups in Sweden? So yeah, I think it's quite the same. Also what Anna just said, the same groups. Plus, I think they made also people who represent, like, people from a union, the Hargo Syndicalistic Union and representatives from the labor movements here in Sweden. And yeah, and this is the thing that what Anna said that they made it super clear from the beginning and also in one of their communiques, I think, that they will just meet whoever invited them. And if anyone has a problem with that, they shouldn't meet the Sabatistas. So this is super inclusive thing, which was really amazing, of course, with some small, like, limits. So if there was, for example, someone that was representing the state or had something like this to them, they wouldn't talk with such a group. But yeah, in general, yeah, very inclusive and whoever invited them, they wanted to meet. Do you want to share your own experience, Patricia? Yeah, on top of the groups that met the Sabatistas in Portugal and Sweden, in the Netherlands specifically, we had a lot of artists that was really nice. And it's something very close to the Sabatistas because often when we talk about art, it's something quite separate from us, as human beings. But for Sabatistas, when they were asked a question about art and struggles or resistance, formulating art as something separate from your being was something an interesting conversation that was had. They also met with a lot of housing rights activists here in the Netherlands, as well as anarchists, climate movement migrants, really a lot of migrants, a lot of undocumented people, a lot of people of color coming from the global south, a lot of some refugees and so on. They also met with land and farming rights movements here in the Netherlands. And even were able to see the places of resistance where people were trying to stop building a super highway or something like this. And it was really inspiring when they would tell all of us, all of these people around the Netherlands to continue your fight in your geography, in your time and how it has to be done and was reminding all of us to be in solidarity with each other. And like Nico said, like if there were people who were representing the state, they could be there just in the background, but they were really more interested in meeting the people who were in part of the struggle like the from the left and below here in the global north, so to speak, and for them to hear how people are being part of the struggle in this in this geography. So it was very nice for different groups to meet, not just the Zapatistas, but for all of us also to come together as well and meet each other because it's not very often that there's a reason for people to come together this way. That's great. Actually, we always have this feeling that activists are not communicating with each other right that we are all a little bit apart from each other. So it's really good that somebody for the outside it's even sometimes easier to make the groups come together, right. Just going a little bit back in this conversation, could you tell us a little bit about how did you get involved with the Pan-European collectives and national collectives that were supporting and organizing the trip from Zapatistas to Europe. What exactly does it entail? Do you need what did you have in practical terms? What did you have to do? How did you find or manage to involve DM-25 somehow in this organization? Although we know that Zapatistas wanted to be very independent from any political movements. How was it all this experience with the collectives? As you said Nadid was very challenging. The preparations were very tough and hard and complicated sometimes because of what you said, the fragmentation that we face in Europe and in other parts of the world of course. And the difficulties that we have to communicate, especially if between people who are completely, they have different backgrounds that they came together just for one reason, but they have different backgrounds and also it's very hard if you don't really know the other and you don't have time to meet the other with a different background and also another difficulty was that if you want to act in a horizontal and with a process of consensus in order to organize something, then you need time. And also you need people to know or time to get to know them in order to trust them because of all this structure based on trust. So it was very hard, but nevertheless we managed to finally overcome all these difficulties and all the issues. And we found all the necessary resources for funds and whatever and it was great that we actually there were points that I was thinking that maybe we won't make it at least in Sweden, but finally we made it. So the organization was in, there was an organization, a European level and also in Sweden had in a national level and also in a regional level. So as you can imagine there was like every day, like almost every day stuff to do and meetings and a lot of things and nice and hard and everything. And also the other thing that we started, I think it was in May, we organized with the many comrades from the M25 all around Europe, and actually not only Europe they were also from other parts of the world. Because we created a thematic DSC just for the for this reason for the trick of the so called this in Europe. And we finally had the dozens of members where we were sharing mostly information and contact for whoever wanted to join this initiative of the trip in their own countries. And that is about this as well to visit and we managed also to do some other stuff. And I was very glad for this because I saw how the M25 also worked in this level like having something very challenging and how we all manage in different departments of the M25 to communicate and work together. Like having a very successful fundraising campaign, which was based on the crowdfunding that we did and also we even did the we sold Merz connected to the Sabatistas through our online web shop. So there were many, many different levels that we organized and was really great all this whole thing. And again, arts played a big role on it because we knew we used the arts from the Sabatistas to make these beautiful bags and t-shirts that some people had the chance to buy. Anna, do you want to share your experience in this connection between the Sabatistas and the M25? I know you wrote an article to all of you, right, at some point. Nico's wrote an article in the beginning also when the Sabatistas arrived by boat the first the squad 4-1. This was in June. It was the first seven Sabatistas who came in this in this trip and then afterwards in September, 180 arrived by plane to Vienna. To add to what Nico said, it was it was very similar experience here, this getting to know each other, working with people you had never met before, all of that. And it was very intense periods of intense period because you had to fundraise, you had to organize all the logistics. So there were also different committees also at the European level. There was a legal committee. And when they were not arriving, they were trying to find out ways of getting them to Europe because there were so many issues, passports and then because of COVID restrictions and all that. There was a financial committee and the regions could choose if they wanted to do original finances or national finances or European finances. So all of these different levels were happening and communications. We wanted to be constantly communicating what is happening, but at the same time, you were not allowed to take pictures or videos or you were not allowed to stream the events. So there were, we had three independent media outlets here in Portugal that were accompanying the entire trip. One is Guilherme Dina for info. The other is Jornal Mapa and the third is Petit Revolution. So these three were always accompanying and putting out content in relation to the tour for life here. And not only here, but also in zone one and zone two. Yes, so it was challenging, buying tickets and buses and trains and arrange all the meetings and all the events. And on top of that, to be making sure that you're healthy financially to be able to cover all this. Patricia, do you have anything to add to this experience? Yeah, I think it was very similar to Sweden and Portugal really. And I just wanted to share to add like the actual experience of organizing. I know a lot of people when they think about activism, it's what you see on the streets. It's what you see people protesting, but actually it's really, really a lot and a lot of administrative and coordinating work and communication. And it's really putting in the hard work as Nico said that you have several meetings day in and day out and it's national meetings, city level meetings. They're going to meet each of the committees like the finance, we had finance committee, security team. There's also health team, legal team, the care team, the social media team, the merchandise team. We also had a team for translators. So you have to really think about all of these little things and it's not just something that just happens. People actually have to do the hard work. It's a lot of these organizing, collaborative, coordination and communicating. And it was an experience to be able to find a common ground with people who have different styles of working, who have different styles of collaborating in their own organizations. And I think something that helped the Netherlands was when we came together as different collections, organizations, individuals, activists, whatever background you have. It helped us a lot when we kind of let go, so to speak with the quotation marks of our titles, of our, of these networks and organizations we belong to. And from then on, for that moment, we called ourselves Hira Holanda to be that one United Network, really putting in sharing resources, sharing your network, sharing your time to achieve this bigger picture and bigger goal. And it's beyond just, beyond just receiving the zapatistas, but also the goal of the zapatistas for us to have that solidarity here in the Netherlands, here in Europe and so on. And that really helped us a lot, especially if you want to employ a very horizontal kind of structure. It's difficult because we've been organizing, all of us here in this group have been organizing for at least half a year. It's really months. I think we started like April or May, and to sustain that without knowing when the zapatistas are arriving because the bad governments were making it difficult for them to get to Europe. To sustain that effort, to sustain the momentum for people to find the funds to coordinate at the European level, at national levels, at regional or city levels. It really is a lot of day in, day out. Just doing the work, you know, writing, taking down notes, listening to people, it's really a lot of that. And I think it's one, as one of our compass said, it's an experience in an exercise in organizing for all of us. So that was something really, really good. And I think it was, I would believe it was similar to Ennico's and Anna's experience when we would talk about what's going on in our own countries. When they would have their own meetings and they would have their own groups meeting and planning something. So, yeah, it was, it was really nice. And I think that's something we were not prepared for, even if you have years of organizing experience. This is another level altogether of coming together from a Europe wide and then a national and then just a great experience for organizing for all of us. It's actually really inspiring for any DM 25 member who wants to get active in our movement. And unfortunately, yes, all what we want to do and all what you want to achieve will demand a bit of effort, a bit of time. And, but I think when we managed to organize a little bit like you did. It's a very good example that we can really achieve amazing things. Now I know that Anna was in Madrid to say goodbye to one of the last groups that were in Europe. Can you tell us a little bit about this last experience you had very recently? It was last week, right? Yes, it was very, it was the last, yes, the last day they flew back from Madrid to Mexico on the 6th of December on Monday. So they concentrated all the hundred eighty, all the twenty eight groups of Escuchis Palabras were in Madrid for the last days. And on Saturday there was a football match between Excel Ramona and Independiente de Vallecas, I think. And on Sunday, it was one big event in an auditorium with concerts and poetry and some of the some of the organizers from different countries also said some words. As the Portuguese coordination, we went up to this stage and we sang a version with new lyrics from the Chiquitita by Abba because our group was always listening to this song. They put it in the mornings or they put it in the car. So there was this lyrics that was a bit like telling the anecdotes of what happened during their visit in Portugal. So it was, do you want to sing for us? Thank you, no. And it was an emotional moment. I think there were many tears by everyone. So many people there had really given a lot, you know, like what Patricia was saying, it's every day, it's consistency, it's hard work and people were very tired, but very happy. So this makes where you just cry. And of course seeing them leave after all that they have given us. I think that, yes, their struggle is already an inspiration, but to see them, someone who has been for three months, they were out of their homes preparing and waiting for the time they could come and then for another three months they were every day having meetings or traveling for hours or not knowing where they're going to sleep, what they're going to eat. Just sleeping where they are told to sleep, just eating what they're told to eat. And every day, every meeting they were 100% there. They were giving all their presents. They were taking notes of absolutely everything people were saying and to see that, to understand that, yes, I'm tired, but what are they? They must be so tired and still they are doing it. And they are not only, they're not complaining and they're not, and they're very happy to be doing it. And if you ask them, they will say this is, it's great to see that we can find people here who are also struggling, who also understand the fight and with whom we can have these exchanges. And if you, whenever you ask them, they would be very happy to be here and to be able to do this work. They are delegates. So they are, they will always remind you that what they're saying is not their own words, but it's the words of the thousands of Sabatistas that have stayed back. And they have this sense of responsibility and this sense of collectiveness that is something we can really learn from. And it's tireless, tireless work that they do. I heard the Sabatistas left some really important messages for us Europeans here. Nico, would you like to recall what the Sabatistas wrote to the National Collective in Sweden, if I'm not wrong? The main feedback that they gave us, the delegation that visited Sweden, was that they were very, very happy that they finally met so many people in this part of the world, in the northern Europe, in Sweden, that they were struggling, they're struggling and they participate in different types of struggles, but that we are so many and in so many small groups. But since we fight, even if there's the different struggles, we fight for the same causes. And the main thing that was that that, yes, it's great that you fight and that you participate and you are active, but it would be great if you managed to focus on what really unites all of you and to focus on the common ground that you have and not on the difference that you have, because if we really want to have an impact and to fight for life, we need to be united and create a bigger coalition, which of course is something that also Diem says and also many other organizations and people say, but hearing it from those who have already managed to do this thing and they have said they're so united, it has a much different impact and also the way that they said it, that we are so grateful and we will take this back home from us, that you face the same problems with us and you fight, you haven't surrendered in Europe and in Sweden, but it would be great if you could create something like bigger coalition that you can manage to focus on your similarities in the common cause. Patricia, do you want to say something about this? I already have a question prepared, but I second everything that Nika says, it's really something that they said to us in different occasions is to think that something that we have to remember is to fight in your own time and in your own pace and in your own geographies and to also really look around at what's happening in your places because a lot of the times you don't really see the other struggles that are happening just beside us or just around us or just even within our own circles, within our own relationships, our own organizations and groups. So yeah, that's just something that they really highlighted, it's to fight in your own time and to fight in your geographies and also as Nika was saying to find that solidarity and that common ground and to fight together. And so my question was, what do we need in DM25 to make our activists feel so united and with so much strength and time and dedication to make us fight like the Zapatistas do? What do you think? What are the topics that you think that could move more people right now in Europe to make us feel so united? I think Nika wanted to add something before we move on maybe. Yeah, I can answer also and I'm putting this question, but I just wanted to say that another feedback that we had and I forgot to mention, and maybe this can be connected with your question now, Nadia, about what we can do in DM in order to make the activists be more active and more united. Is that what the Zapatistas said and what they're doing is like to fight, it's good to demonstrate and have, because they saw this thing that we have in Europe, but we demonstrate a lot and they were very excited also about this, but they said it's good to fight against something and demonstrate and march and do everything. But it's also better to fight for something, to create something and maybe this is, for me, this is very like, it inspires me a lot and I think it can inspire a lot of activists that we're always in a mood in Europe, I don't know, probably in other places as well, that we need to fight against capitalism, against this, against that. But we forget to create space for something that can work in parallel with this problematic system that we need to abolish, but before abolishing it, we need to create something. And to create something, we need to be united, we need to be all together and this can create also the basis for what will come next, because of course this system is collapsing by itself, by us it will collapse, but we need to have already created something. And I think this is something that can be done and can inspire the activists also in the M25. Yes, maybe adding to that, I think this difference between revolution or constant rebellion, joyful rebellion is that one is just seizing power, but then you are inside the same house or the other is building a house that is actually outside of it already. So when this one big house collapses, you already have your own. So building this, it takes a lot of creativity, imagination, work of course and consistency and maybe that is something that can motivate people is you can choose what is it that is important for you, what is it that isn't, do you think should we take into our futures? So maybe this motivation to contribute, that you can contribute your own thoughts and values, maybe that's something that can motivate activists. And to add to that, like what Anna was saying a while ago about the sepatistas constantly taking notes, constantly listening and everything, I think that's something that for the first time I really see in practice where people take the time to really listen to each other and they really practice their seven principles, which is when you read it, it seems very difficult or very detached, but to see an actual group practice it every day because they would meet all the time at the end of the day or in the beginning talk about what they did, what they're about to do, and you would hear them self-reflect, give self-criticism and really listen to each other and build that community. And I think that's something we should be able to practice, given that I think at least maybe in the global north here in Europe, we have some more privileges were not really as persecuted as or this is disenfranchised as the sepatistas or other indigenous communities. But to really practice the things that we are fighting for and fighting against, like Nikos was saying, creating what we want, but also understand what it is we are fighting against and for. Because I see with the sepatistas that they know and they truly understand what they are fighting against and what they are fighting for, what they want to build. They understand how deeply rooted the racialized struggle is, the struggle against capitalism, the struggle against patriarchy, they really truly understand it and they see it in what they're fighting for. But then at the same time, they have also created structures within their communities, such as, for example, the revolutionary laws for women in the sepatista community. We know that there are many feminist groups all over the world, but have we as a society created what Nikos was saying, that space and what Anna was saying, that house outside, that we want to achieve once we have burnt down capitalism and fought everything. And also that whole thing where a world where many worlds fit is something that I truly saw in them in practice and something that they were able to create in such a space when they arrived in Europe. It's really, really truly inspiring and I hope all of us here, Anna and Nikos and I were saying that we hope that's more of the DMs around Europe were able to attend or participate in some way or meet the sepatistas because being in that space with them and being really inspired with something, is that kind of hope that we're kind of looking for now with all of these things happening around us with the climate and bad governments all over. So I think it's something that as DMers we just have to really remember to put in the work, but also at the same time listen to everyone. You know, the whole structures and everything we have to just really take the time to listen to check in on everyone to really learn how to listen and to understand each and everyone's fights, their own struggles, their own needs and see that there really is a common struggle there. We should put that in our plate as DM, not just in the Netherlands, but DM as that movement and to really represent all of that. Otherwise, we might fail to achieve what we want to achieve. So it's really something we just need to do. It's really just day in, day out of work, of listening, of taking time and like the snail, you know, it's big and slow in the beginning and then it goes faster and faster and then we're going to get there. But we just really have to go through all these difficult things first. I think we're almost finishing our conversation, but now I would like just to ask you if you're what's your future plans in terms of fights, struggles, activism, do you have any ideas for 2022? Where do you want to get active? So what will you do at DM 25 level or in any other areas of your lives? So for me, this is something that we said before that I think Patricia mentioned it mostly that people don't really understand what how difficult this thing was in order to organize this whole thing. They see some stuff happening and they're like, okay, but it was very hard. But on the other hand, they can also, they don't really realize all the benefits that we have from all this hard work and stuff that. So this is also something like for direct action for the activists that of course you need time and you have to be a bit privileged in order to have all this time to work for stuff like that. So it's hard work, but the benefits are great. And for me, for example, and I think it's also for Rana. But I read so many people for that they were even in a small city in Stockholm. It's not a big city. And I didn't know that they exist and also places that I met and organizations and movements. And all of this now has concluded inside me and I have great. I have become part of some movements as I told you before. And for example, I'm in a group with that is helping and undergmented people and like legal stuff and financial and many different things. I mean, this is it. I think I am around in seven, eight different groups right now. And this happened, of course, before this about this, but from this about this has experienced that we came so close with all these people. It's really bold and and I think that this is what we're trying to do now to focus on how to create new spaces that we can have like liberated spaces that we can all have a network that we have already built to sustain and not be fragmented. And this is my goal now for the next year to manage to to create this network with the different groups that I have met and I I also am a member of and to make it a solid kind of network, not like just being part of this group and that group and the other group and finally fighting for the same cause and eating the same resources in reinventing the wheel every time. No, we need to make like a network that can have can start from a point and to reallocate everything all the resource that we need. I wanted to say that also from the Sepadistas who received the request to evaluate what everything that happened all the events, the encounters, what went well in the organization went went what went wrong. And this evaluation we need to send in until a January, January or February, I think. So this is also another example of this of this work you know it's, it's, I think we are not used to this consistency, you know, it's like, Okay, now they're gone. Okay, we can breathe. But no, you know, you have to continue the work you have to continue these networks that we created we have to sustain them. And this is something I towards the end of the trip I asked. I asked them so what was the highlight you know what in these three months of touring Europe, but they don't fall into these kinds of traps, they will have more more conscious answers. And they told me that, you know, we can we are so happy because we came here with our hands full of seeds to spread around Europe. And we had no idea what if we would find fertile ground but we came anyways and we actually did find it and you're so happy. And now we go back, not with empty hands but with full hands again because of all of your seats that we bring back. So it's this exchange and this inspiration. So we take this inspiration from them and they can take the inspiration from finding us here and hopefully we are fertile ground. So hopefully we we can water the seeds we can nurture them and make them grow. Beautiful image to finish off our episodes. Anna, Nicos, Patricia, thank you so much. We'll be back soon with other examples of activists from GM 25. And I hope you will be one of them next time. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye. Ciao.