 Welcome everybody. I am really excited because today we are here with Deanna Montero and she's going to talk about her unique approach to helping people in their horsemanship journey and the way she starts people on their journey is through understanding the horse through sculpture and and learning how to sculpt the anatomy of the horse as you are as you're learning about the horse and she's able to do this online which I think is really cool and and then in through doing that it makes you a much better rider trainer and partner to your horse because you're actually able to understand how the biomechanics of the horse works and this is such an important thing that's oftentimes missed I feel so welcome Deanna and I'm here with Jack as well. So welcome Deanna. So if you could share just a little bit about your your story. So I got started teaching anatomy I'm a professional sculptor and I started I've had my horse since he was a baby so my story kind of goes back to that time I got him when he was four months old I was 16 and illusion dream you know dream come true that journey lasted a long time he was 15 and I ended up sending him back to the breeder because I have my family now and I'm dedicating more to teaching and really being able to provide for him what he deserves and what he needs at the moment I'm not able so that that he's in a beautiful place right now but I my journey started with him and I learned about anatomy to help him after I had put him in training came back to me and he had some major issues he didn't want to be ridden he didn't want to be groomed and so I started looking into how I might be able to help him and I started you know I had been sculpting for a long time sculpting horses and I started to think well I'd like to learn more anatomy I'd like to know more about it and understand you know more in depth the conversations that I have with my veterinarian and how I might be able to communicate better what I'm trying what I'm seeing and feeling and maybe understand my horse better so I started sculpting the skeletal form the muscular skeletal structures and everything and I actually was able to find a path that led directly to his healing through my understanding of the anatomy building it in the clay which is you know a three-dimensional way of understanding so it's pretty real you know apart from like working with the actual skeletal you know pieces that we can we you know dissecting or whatever perhaps it's not something that everybody would like to do so it's it's a it's a nice option so you can you can build every structure in every form and really understand it at a very you know fine detail level so as I started doing that I I was searching for different methods different training methods different ways to build his muscles and try and help him heal in certain parts of his body because I could tell you know things hurt and I wanted to ride but he wasn't enjoying it so I wanted us both to have in have that enjoyment not just force him to do what I wanted you know or what forced him to give me what I wanted you know I wanted him to enjoy himself as well so when I started to really see results about two and a half years of really studying applying and working with him I was able to start riding him again he was really you know communicating and happy excited to be with me because it's just a completely 360 around and I started to I would before that I was kind of observing other riders and their relationships with their horses and the things that they talked about they struggled with that were just so similar to my struggles and the things that I saw with my horse and things I wanted to you know improve or heal or whatever so then I started thinking well I think this information is just too good to keep to myself and I wanted to try and figure out a way that I could bring it to as many questions as possible and online seemed to be one of the ways that I could do that internationally so I started filming the anatomy in clay so that I could offer it on three courses online and people could start learning you know the skeletal structure the muscular structure and then talk about biomechanics even though a sculpture of course doesn't move but we can understand the biomechanics from the way that things fit together and the consequences of you know perhaps the development in certain under certain patterns that we might have in training or over years so there's lots of different ways that the the student can learn even though they're not directly interacting with the horse through the through the clay and then that's transferred to okay well I can make connections now I understand the back is built you know a certain way and the horse needs to be able to lift his back so that he can support the rider and then just having that mental picture and that understanding of how the muscles are developed can ask the horse to do things that are healthy for his body rather than you know the opposite that causes long-term damage so that that's pretty much the story in terms of what brought me to what I'm doing now so well that's fantastic and I think it's a huge piece of the puzzle I mean understanding the body and how the horse's body and how it works it's it's similar to ours but it's also a very different and and in order for people to really see when they're riding the things that they'd actually like to be seeing and to know the why and the how behind it they've got they've got to get some understanding of how all of these pieces fit together and what a wonderful way to do it because it's so hands-on it's it's aesthetic you know it's you're able to actually work with all of the little pieces and I would imagine you do it do do it in like layers or how do you how do you okay tell us a bit about the process because I think that'd be really interesting yeah for sure okay so the teachings of sculpt the skeleton first right cool and so this is actually a tutorial I'm putting together right now it's going to be available pretty soon okay and I teach them just with nothing we start with a ball of tin foil and then we sculpt the the bones over and I talked about different bones and how they fit together and you know things like you know the jaw for instance how it's sensitive from the horse and if it gets damaged what happens to the body how it might affect the back and all of those those kinds of things so I go into it not in super into a whole lot of detail because it's just a skull but I do talk about that one and then I also do you know the other layers so in this particular one where I talked about the both I use a different colored clay for the different layers right that is so cool it's it's a lot of fun I love it and I think it's a great way to retain the information because like you said it's tactile it's kinesthetic and so because you're building it you have not only the opportunity to you know shape it and feel it but you're you're kind of taking your time you're you're building that it and it takes time to do it so you're you're thinking about that one piece for a while so it kind of ingrains pretty pretty quickly the other part that a lot of people don't realize is that there's a lot of feel that's involved in sculpting to which transfers directly to writing right it's not only about anatomy it's about learning how you're using your hands and how you're using your body as well while you're sculpting so that you can achieve what you want in the clay and if you you know once you internalize that idea and know that those techniques you can transfer that to you know not only your hands how you're using your hands with the reins but also how you're using the rest of your body in the saddle so it's a lot more abstract you know technique that you learn from sculpting but it's a it's definitely applicable yeah go ahead yeah let's so neat because I never I wouldn't have thought that you would be bringing both the the mental mindfulness kind of be present date which is required in this as well as the feel I mean these are all such important things that we need to work on on away from the horse so what a perfect way to do it yeah what a perfect way to do it through sculpture and through understanding the anatomy of the horse and I'm sure people are astonished at how like something small up here at the head clearly is a you know affects all the way back to that last vertebra on the tail and how interconnected that all is and you mentioned you know using feel as well so this is you know a chance for them to sit there I'm sure that people can close their eyes sometimes and feel clay but I mean it's different than just seeing a video or a picture or having somebody say oh look at the horse it's stretching through its back now you're actually like in there yeah and like you said they take time to like process so that's because yeah we're not very patient so by having that that clay there it's like we feel like you know we're doing something right so I love it and right now are more are you finding more and more people are doing this since they're at home how's that going for you yes yes there's a lot of people that are very interested in it maybe it's a great opportunity because we have I don't know what the situation is I'm sure it's different everywhere but we have with COVID-19 going on right now a lot of owners that actually can't see their horses there so the barns are closed today the trainers and the grooms are taking care of the horses so it's a great opportunity for people to stay connected and refine their techniques without actually you know being in the saddle or or being with their horses right so yeah it's been it's been a good thing I think for people yeah for sure for sure and it's so interesting so like like let's delve into you showed the skull and the bones of the skull so can you tell us a little bit because I've heard a lot about how like when you have a noseband on a horse let's say and you put the noseband on real tight and now you're asking the horse to flex and that jaw doesn't have the ability to drop down in the way it needs to to facilitate that you know that flexion can you talk to us just like about things like that I'd be real interested I'm sure the people listening would be real interested in how this all kind of fits together yes and atomically what happens when the horse is you know behind the vertical or he's put in to a position where he's not able to move his head upward that it stretches see one and two and right behind so right at the connection of the head to the neck and you can actually physically see a bulge right there when that stretches out and a lot of people will refer to it as like what is this broken at the third vertebrae yep that's here is what I heard so so yeah that's that's probably one of the most visible things that you can see in terms of you know what when the head is down like that and you can actually see it immediately and if the horse stays in that position it will become permanently you know a permanent bolt and it can heal though depending on you know how severe it is through the stretching and asking the horse to you know lengthen his his spine but what happens is it doesn't of course stay in the pole it causes tension in the mouth and then that causes tension throughout the whole spine and in all the junctions stop body so it you know like you'd mention earlier the connection from the mouth to the last vertebrae tail it it's it's amazing because it can show up in the lumber vertebrae which start to you know bunch together and they start to push up so that's where we will start to see you know the kissing spines in different parts of the back or also affect the position of the pelvis too so depend but of course this it's all multi-factor there's multi factors going on here depending on how the horse is kept how often he's moved what kinds of exercises he does does he jump the dressage whatever and how the rider of course does exercises so everything plays into all of these things but yeah the just going behind the vertical creates a trickle effect throughout the whole body and and that was our major issue for my horse when he came back some horses are it's not I don't think it's a breed thing I think a lot of in a lot of cases it's a temperament thing some horses are more prone to want to be behind the vertical and kind of want their with quotes they're trying to they're trying to find a comfortable position whether that's from away from the hands or away from the tool that's being used and when my horse came back he would only stay behind the vertical with his chin not not pin to his chest but he was holding himself back because he didn't want to feel that tension in his in his mouth but of course then it creates tension elsewhere so getting him to just kind of poke his nose out took a year of you know all sorts of different different techniques and different things that I helped him with but the biggest was walking relaxed with his head lying him to put his head where he wanted it which was down and because that's what the early stages when they're weak they want to put their head down in the natural grazing position and and just poke that nose out but it takes a long time because they get they get nervous they think they're gonna hit something that that hurts right yeah and think about horses and the chewing action of their jaw you know how it comes down and it kind of grinds and there's that slight lateral rotation as they chew and think about a horse chewing and then think about a flash nose band or some people call figure eight or drop nose bands right so you put that on so they can't chew so they don't they can't roll fully relax because licking we always talk about licking and chewing it's not just relaxation that's the stomach juices it's like digestion it's it's that relaxed state and so people will clamp that mouth shots and then their horses perpetually stiff in the pole defensive defensive right and it's like you take that flash off and that nose band off and the horse automatically they start to kind of loosen up and they you get that chewing motion going again but any thoughts on on like the flash nose bands the chewing that type of thing um yeah for sure um I and I agree I'm not against using nose bands or but I am against using certain ones and also it's important not to put them on too tight because like you said it prevents them from chewing and their their dog does move back from side to side it when they because it's natural for them to have that grinding action with their mouth it's the only way that they can move and so for restricting that they end up biting their tongue too so if we put the if we put it on too tight they'll actually pinch their tongue and if and by restricting the tongue it actually you know it causes direct pain or discomfort into the horse's pole which we have already talked about what happens you know if the horse has discomfort in his pole then you know we're back to causing problems throughout the whole horse the whole body part but yes I I ended up with my horse same classic issue you know nose band was too tight didn't want to put it bit in his mouth when I got him back he would you know bob his head up and down when he saw it and you know kind of hold his head up he was tall he was a 16-hand horse and I'm only 411 so it was he was it was pretty easy for him to get get away from me so I was like well this doesn't work so we need to think of something else I completely chucked the nose band and there was no issue it you know I've had people tell me well you have to put the nose band on on otherwise you're gonna grab the bit and run away or you know whatever there's a whole list of possibilities right and I okay well I'll take my chances and so I checked the nose band and of course he at first he experimented right with oh I have freedom now what can I do with this freedom and he I mean he only experimented for maybe a day day too and he found out why he can chew he could relax he could you know when he actually started to feel that relaxation when he would put his head out poke his nose out and then his it wasn't he was a funny horse he has a sort of a sense of humor he not some horses flap their ears right well he would flap his lips when he was relaxed and I just I always thought it was funny because you get this relaxed look in his eyes and then his lips would start relaxed and then you start blowing air but yeah it started with removing the nose band which because it there's a they're really sensitive in their nose the nasal bone is really thin and there's a lot of nerves in there so we put it on really tight then we're not only you know causing discomfort up in the in that area of the nasal bone but also under the chin which also has a lot of nerves too which is just the face is all a very sensitive place you don't probably wouldn't want anybody just drop something you know really tied on to your pace with a bit with a metal bit in your mouth not desirable for anybody yeah what about moving back now you talk about floppy ears and I love it when a horse is soft and they're kind of seeking folks they're sort of coming up and forward in their spot kind of stretching a little bit and you can pick them up and in your hand and you're walking and their ears are flopping they're so so you know obviously they're relaxed but some horses really flop the ears like a mule almost right any thoughts on that the ears and that sort of thing I think it's just by a horse it depends because some horses I like to observe you know just sit and observe horses and regardless of what the rider is doing and just see how they respond and some horses even though they're tense they'll flap their ears so it's not always an indication of relaxation for some of them it is I always tell people well it's it's not one sign it's like it's a combination of 10 or 20 signs that the horse is relaxed so is your horse you know soft in his eyes and flop his ears then probably that's that's an indication for that horse but if another horse is like his heads behind the vertical and his back has dropped but he's flopping his ears it's probably not a not a good indication so I so observations a huge a huge thing not only for you know understanding my horse but also understanding how to sculpt I use you know you take a couple of minutes to observe the living animal it depends on what I'm teaching you sometimes I do live sculpture as well so I teach the students to observe the horse and then choose a composition and and we go through the sculpting process that way too so we're kind of opening their eyes to the communication of the horse how does how does he express his eyes what's he doing when he with his tail when his eyes look like that or you know so connecting the front and the back and through the the observation is is a big big part of it as well you're talking about the whole horse you know you're saying you know and I like that because that's a good point that that some horses might I have a horse that she'll pop her lips a little bit quite a bit she's younger yes so anyway you know I always perceive that to be tension but the rest of her feels really great and her eyes are blinking and she saw and I guess I was like oh it's just that one thing would you know she could just get quite enough but maybe you know maybe that she'll do it without a bit as well yeah maybe maybe you're right that look at the other look at what the rest of the horse is saying and for that individual perhaps that it doesn't mean tension for her it might mean maximum relaxation so it's about yeah observe observing the individual a lot of times you get this idea of you know kind of the idea of a box right this is what correct looks like whereas correct looks different with everybody every horse a little bit different even though we have a baseline of course right it's not going to be like would be that example I don't know it we start with a baseline but then you know we start getting into the details each one is a little bit you know different and that's my 10-month-old the whole and and so now that's something that I think you know every horse is so nuanced and being able to to pull in the entire picture and take a look at it rather than just focusing on one individual thing is important but just the ability to teach people to observe and from the sounds of what you're talking about it sounds like you've got such an amazing way to teach people to observe the whole horse and then they're taking it they're putting it into some work with their hands you know working I feel working on being quiet but then I'm sure you have to have them observe again so there's this constant like back and forth where you're observing you're working with your hands you're creating something and then observing again and that's riding yes and you you say okay now what is my horse saying that I just told it how did that feel to him and then you chained horses writing horses is very much like sculpting it is and even the muscle tone because you know I'll tell students will experiment with muscle tone so I'll say you know sit like Jello so they're they're too loose you know and then I'll say sit like wood and they're too stiff and the horse will go and slow down and then I'll say now sit like clay and so we're finding ways to teach you know muscle tone or to put to describe that and working with clay that would be that would be perfect sense and even somebody grabbing clay and squeezing clay yeah you know what a good teaching aid that that is so I think you're I don't know of anybody else that does this no I don't either not directly related to riding right and then and I that's I when I started you know searching for a healing process for my horse I realized it was me I needed to make the adjustments and my best tool was sculpting right yeah so I have a question for you and it's in regards to I guess you call them horse riding simulators so like at horse fairs you'll have these things and you know I get it it's data for feedback for the rider so if I'm sitting heavy on one set bone versus the other or if I'm pushing on my left stirrup more I get it it's feedback for the rider but to actually make a simulated horse I don't know if they'll ever be able to do that because the way they move and certain muscles stretch and certain muscles contract and it's so dynamic that I don't think riding simulators I think be really hard to make one so as a as an artist and a sculptor and somebody that rides horses what are your thoughts on like the whole riding simulator thing and is it possible to make one that would actually feel like a horse right now I don't know I have never tried to make one so I don't I don't know I think it's pretty cool the data I like data I think it's pretty cool the information that you can collect from it but I don't know how much it helps in terms of applying to your riding if your takes maybe a rider that's completely unaware of their seat bones or you know the way that they're using their body then yeah I think it could be beneficial but there's other ways also that for instance I when I talk about I do clinics and I talk about rider position for instance and we we do a self self-observation as well before starting to sculpt and we do some exercises in terms of the way that you're sitting or no do you have good posture where your seat bones so if you're sitting on a on a hard surface it's pretty easy to feel it's because it's uncomfortable and if you put your hands under your under your bottom or you're sitting you can feel your your seat bones so there's different ways of doing it but I think it's a pretty cool idea I think maybe as it develops it might become more more sophisticated but simulating a horse I think that's pretty complicated because they're very complex animals and I'd be surprised if we could simulate something that was you know equal or at least close to equal because they're they're living creatures each one is a little bit different they respond differently to you know each different person because every person is also different our energy it really affects them too so which is something that a machine won't respond to so yeah I think I mean I think there's some benefit there could be some great benefits to it but I think there's also things that you know benefits to being with the horse that you can never get machine yeah yeah yeah I like I'm kind of going back just a little bit but I like how you said you realize that in order to help your horse it came down to you and I think that's a really important thing for people to understand is we have to be an educated advocate for our horses and to become that we need education right we need to learn more about them and learn about their their body their mind because they're both so interconnected to be able to communicate to the veterinarians like you like you were speaking to earlier you've got to have a general idea of what's going on because they're not going to exhibit the exact things in front of the vet that you're seeing on a day-to-day basis and that sort of thing so what would be some key areas people should kind of key into something that you see come up fairly regularly when assessing horses or when observing horses that that you would encourage people to kind of look at and become real familiar with when working with their own horses so that they can they can see maybe potential problems coming up I would start by observing one's energy personally how are you bridging your horse are you finding some you know do you come away kind of feeling the same every time and if that's a dissatisfaction where that might be coming from I talk about that a lot because usually when we're having a problem it's because we're approaching the issue not in a way that's gonna be helpful to the horse right so it's observing the horse at some of the issues I it looks I would say some of the biggest things that come up right are just general tension with the horse and then there are creatures of habit so we teach them to be tense they're just gonna naturally be that way when we pull them out of their stall and some days are gonna be worse than others and if and it's accumulative too right so if we don't release that tension it eventually just becomes a ball of tension that's eventually gonna so starting from that idea of where can I how can I make myself relax so that I can transfer that to my horse and then I think once you start kind of pointing the finger back at yourself rather than at your horse which is the hard thing to do because you know it takes a lot of it's a lot of work to really kind of fill away the layers and you see yourself as you know it's hard not not that it's not a lack of honesty or whatever but it's it's hard to kind of pinpoint what you need to work on other people are able to see that easier in yourself but kind of having that mental picture or that mental that idea how I'm going to approach my horse so that I can help him relax is is helpful because then you start to create make these connections of how you can kind of prepare yourself or start even start your day with you know more relaxation and and apply that to you know by the time that you get to your horse you're not you know tense or you're not like you don't have the weight of the day on you yeah totally and so I think I mean it's kind of an abstract idea but it's it's just so important to start from that idea of what am I transferring to my horse and how can I what changes can I do to you know be the most positive possible so that I'm not causing you know things that I don't want to cost in my riding or in my interaction I think that's fantastic I mean I think it does really boil down to where we're at emotionally physically to write because that that emotional energy kind of creates what we are physically and then and then understanding how much that affects the horse and how interesting coming from somebody that's teaching you know the biomechanics that how all the pieces fit together understanding the musculature the skeletal skeletal anatomy of the horse and here she is what do we need to work on the most and it's our own energy because it's not about the mechanics really it's it's about understanding the mechanics so that we can understand ourselves but it's true because you know anybody on any I think anybody that works in anything ends up comes to the conclusion that oh I need to work on myself it's not out there it's actually in here and and and a lot of people think oh you're teaching an anatomy but I want to teach feel or I want to teach you know but like I said you know we kind of started a baseline and if we can start at a baseline we teach what we can see or what we can you know build in this case then we can move to the more abstract ideas of feel and energy because we start I think we start directly from feel it's level it's it's it's more difficult because I remember when I was younger being taught to ride and it's like no it's a field understand this and I was a little kid so I'm like okay it feels fine you know I just want to canter around and it feels fine to me but so explaining it through like well these are the structures and the reason you want to work on your feel is because then it affects the horses back like this you know it making it kind of making these connections and of course it I mean they to me it's kind of becomes difficult to explain it through words but when you starting to build it and you you're then you're transferring that and working with your horse you start to go oh so if his back does that that's what it feels like right right and it's not like I can say yeah it feels like X Y and Z because it might feel a little bit it'll feel a little bit different if I'm working with my horses you know my sixteen hundred horse versus you know somebody's 14 hand pony and you know so everything's gonna you know it's all a little bit variable yeah no that that's really cool and and the the slowing down and feel is taught you know through your hands-on kinesthetic approach you're you're you're creating a scenario it's hard when people are just with their horses it's them and their horse spending at an instructor so now they've got this pressure of being on their horse trying to interpret what's going on here trying to listen to the instructor trying to like perform some people feel like that pressure to perform in front of their instructor they want to show their instructor they're doing good and doing right and so there's so much feedback that to develop feel in that space can be a little bit difficult for many so yeah so in the in the environment that you're creating you're really allowing them to slow down it's bringing that energy to the place that they need to have their energy when they're riding and then they're able to develop the feel and then through that you're also I'm sure talking about the understanding and how this all works together and and it's just it's really intriguing it's a really intriguing way of going about doing this and I can see that it would be very effective for people to take one of your courses and go through this and really start to understand how all of these pieces fit together definitely I wonder if you took like high-end riders or whatever equestrian's and if you said okay sculpts a horse that you'd like to see so like let's pick on dressage so you asked the Grand Prix rider you say sculpt the horse that you'd like to be on and then you had them ride and does that horse match their vision does that horse match the horse they sculpted right right now obviously they they're not gonna be able to sculpt that what you know possibly be able to sculpt that well but I'm trying to say like does the product is the horse they're riding is it match their vision or does it look like something completely different as the horse over flexed and gaping or whatever you wouldn't sculpt that right yeah well but you do see that in art I guess you do you do see that you know over flexed horse with the gaping mouth which is really too bad because it's not beautiful I mean it's an expression of truth so unfortunately that's one that's the truth that we have in the question world and it's sad because we do we see it a lot and our artists they don't know what they're sculpting or they're painting they're just doing what they see and unfortunately that kind of comes back to the question world how well are we educating our riders and our students and but yeah it's it's it's a shame you see yeah I'm sorry well you do see the resistance in there and of course a lot of arts is like you know battles and stuff like that so you see horses that are at war in a stressed state or and you're right I guess you know they are sculpting what they see or painting what they see and right the truth is a lot of horses are stressed and you know that that's done and you know in resistance can't be beautiful you know I'm kind of paraphrasing and oh yeah my version of the saying but it's almost like if people could in their mind and vision the softness and a horse that's that's really almost like play her curiosity you know if they could get that in their mind and now go ride yeah I just think that would help that would change things a lot for horses yeah it definitely would I agree and I like that you mentioned playfulness because that's something when I started incorporating that with my horse it really started to see that sparkle where he was just excited he was like I could play I can experiment and and then they you start to get that communication that back and forth communication it's not just me telling him what to do he is saying well let's try this it's could this work and be like well you know let's try it this way and then you start to have that silent communication which is really neat and then and that goes back to learning the feel and learning to slow down yeah right yeah neat so I'm sure we've got a bunch of people listening that would love to learn more about you and your work and what you do so how how can they how can they get more involved with you and learn more about about you well they could look at my website I have two websites Deanna Montero.com is where you can take the online courses for the sculpture anatomy I also have sculpture anatomy.com if you want to learn more about the sculpting of the horse just what it is you know what it means and yeah I also have Facebook page sculpture equine anatomy on Facebook and you also have my Instagram same name okay okay so sculpture equine anatomy is what they want to if they're gonna Google something that would be you're gonna pull up on that would be yeah for the the horse anatomy stuff that would be yeah good do you work with like bits like bits and bidding and like with a clay horse like us like a skull do you do talk about bits at all with at your clinics I I haven't done a whole lot I mean I mentioned that it's important to use a bit that's that is comfortable and I you know you choose to use a bit I I suggest the French link snaffle just the loose ring because I think it fits the mouse the best and it creates the least amount of discomfort on the bars of the mouth and you can get them with a flat link in the middle too so it doesn't poke the mouth doesn't poke the palette making sure that they can fit you know it so I do talk about that a little bit but I don't I haven't done any like sculpting of the clay with a bit I talk about it in some of my videos oh I my YouTube channel also yeah I talk about it in my videos on YouTube a little bit and but it's more about how you know the discomfort or the comfort of a bit can help the horse be more relaxed throughout his body and but I don't go into it a whole lot okay what is your YouTube channel just the name of it the same sculpting quite a now perfect that's yeah I think it's best that way but I have an I have a quite another question do you do sculpts what else do you sculpt what else do you do for because you said you're a professional sculptor I sculpt in bronze those are a couple bronze okay and but it's mostly courses I'm actually right now working on a tutorial of the human figure oh wow um so this is something that's not up yet and I haven't mentioned it publicly but I'm working on tutorials on rider anatomy and so that then we can sculpt the horse and the rider together and see how two figures that are just so different come together so it's yeah I but I don't I don't professionally sculpt humans it's mostly horses okay yeah yeah how cool yeah yeah it's really I can tell you're creative and you use full of ideas and so then do you do you take like chalk or paint and do you mark like a real like a physical horse for people to see like the anatomy so what I like to do it it's actually for my younger students I did a collegiate clinic here at Stanford a question last summer I did three clinics I think for them and they what I did is I just got a bunch of paint I had a big poster of the anatomy of the horse we it was a short it was I think two hour two to three hour clinic so we didn't have a lot of time but we decided to paint the haunches which is you know a vital part of the the movement getting correct movement of the horse and of course they're very focused in competition so we talked about you know the health of so that they're more competitive and and but I took them and I told them to paint it onto the horse so I didn't do it for them so I said okay we're gonna we're gonna paint those the the skeleton of the horse on you know the haunches of the horse on directly onto the horse they're like I'm not artistic I can't do that I've never done that before they're all teenagers right and so it's like it's okay it doesn't have to be perfect just I just want you to give it a try because when we're when we give ourselves that freedom to try things then we're less afraid and we can communicate better with our horses so we get over that fear factor which is a big contributed to injuries when we're riding right yeah right so you know getting over that through expressing themselves in the art and painting the the skeleton on the on the horse it so we talked about that and and they had a lot of fun they were like hey I can actually do it I mean of course you know the cover some things up and fix some things and talk about no if it was if that bone was that shape would the horse be able to move and they're like well no so let's go ahead and fix it so it was really neat because they started to think about you know how the horse is structured and how he moves and then also you know kind of get naturally getting over fear of failing because if they're trying something that they've never tried before right yeah and you would think that people that ride horses we need to be somewhat creative and we need to have a vision of what we want from our horse and what how we want our horse to to go and so by painting it's like you're taking them to sort of the creative side of their mind so that when they ride maybe they're in that place versus like you said the worry that block yeah and pretty much you know all of our you know all of our presenters we talked about that you know slowing down and relaxing and not having fear as a blocker so that's super super interesting and I'm sure with the painting and with the sculpture they're stepping away from it and then feeling empowered as well right yeah a lot of times people are really afraid to try things that are aren't related because I think that there's kind of a this idea of you have to create a masterpiece because you know if you're doing anything art related and you know it's no you actually just have to have fun with it and every time you do it you're gonna get a little better yeah totally and I go back to the energy piece that you talked about earlier right our energy coming to our horses is so important so if we're coming to our horses nervous and stressed and thinking we have to create this masterpiece it's not gonna be fun for either of us but if we just go out and we just want to have fun and that's my kids and horses kids you know exactly right well no that's such a good point though that and it's funny that you know we come we come back to this and and so hearing it from somebody like you that's that creative artist type saying it it's just it's cool it's refreshing yeah we appreciate yeah kids and horses are great right yes they are and I grew up with miniature horses and we had we had a breeding farm we had a little stallion and a bunch of breed mares and the little stallion was funny he was very difficult with my mom but anytime any of us kids would do anything he was perfect because we were just you know doing stuff we were just having fun with him and and and we were relaxed we didn't have any expectations for him and I think maybe that's expectations are kind of what get in the way I think you're right I think you're right his mom had minis as well she bred and she showed minis and so in my teenager teenage years she had a few minis and we had some big horses but then I'd say my 20s she started breeding miniature horses so she's like a Hall of Famer and everything yeah yeah so you ever you hear about artists that they they make like a painting or a sculpture but to them they don't like the way it looks and so they'll put it aside and then they'll come back to it and they'll say like come back to it the next day or come back to it a few days later do you ever look at your own work and like question it or do you have that happen at all yes a lot and actually I incorporate that in the process of sculpting assessing the quality of the work as I'm progressing and I talk about that in the tutorials and the online courses and it actually the more the longer I've been sculpting the better I'm at assessing my work in the moment rather than putting it away covering it up and not looking at it for several days it's I think it's actually you get to the point where you've refined your eye and and you can pinpoint things faster but I think it's just a matter of you know practice and and fixing issues and every every sculptor every artist has to go through that process of fine-tuning you know it's not like you do something perfect the first time every time you do something you have to fine-tune it and it's the same as when you get on your horse you have to warm him up and fine-tune him and then get to put in quote the fun stuff that you know people are excited to do with their horses and put them and put them away and you know yeah and then cool them down yeah the whole process it's the same with the sculptures as I am I keep my sculptures on a lazy Susan so that I can turn them while I'm sculpting so because of course it's a three-dimensional object so you want to be able to put something on look at it from every angle and so I naturally put it on turn it put something on turn it or or smooth it turn it and so it's a constant adjusting there's a constant adjustments that are happening throughout the process and then of course I'll come back the next day and look at angle that elbow is a little bit higher than the other one or you know that the head isn't exactly where I wanted it maybe my proportions are slightly off so I'm gonna fix it and and then you do that all the way through from the beginning to the end and you get to the end and it's the way that you want it right because you're making those adjustments all the way through yeah how do you keep your clay moist it doesn't dry so it can actually reuse it I actually sell kits for my skins and so they can reuse almost all of their materials except the the armature that it's built on which is aluminum you can reuse it a little bit maybe two or three times but in Intel it gets too fleshy and starts to break but everything else yeah it's reusable well good well thank you so much joining us here today is there anything else that you'd like to before we finish and wrap up anything else you'd like to share or leave the viewers or listeners with well I just like to thank everybody for listening and then also for this great opportunity to talk to you guys I think this is it's wonderful to know that there's other questions that have the same kind of vision and you're on a quest to help horses be more calm and relaxed and of course through that we help riders be safer and enjoy their the time they spend with their horses too so you know I want just wanted to say thank you to you and everybody that's listening well thank you and we appreciate all the work you're doing and being here and and it's it's really interesting thank you so much and thank you to everybody who joined in today it's so yeah so all right well we will see you all and have a wonderful day yep