 Well welcome everyone. We're incredibly excited to have this important conversation about why we need nature now and what that has to do with investing. For those of you who I haven't met yet, my name is Ahmed Borg. I'm the CEO of the Global Impact Investing Network. I'm very honored to moderate this panel. We have a wonderful panel here representing a variety of perspectives on an incredibly important topic. I'll give a very brief intro to our panelists and set the stage a bit for the conversation before bringing Charlotte in to give some framing comments and we'll dive into the discussion. But first, our panelists, we have a lot of wonderful perspectives that represent very different vantage points on this conversation about the role of nature and how it connects to investing. First we have Charlotte Kaiser, who's Managing Director of the NatureVest Impact Investing Team, which is part of the Nature Conservancy, a very well-known global environmental nonprofit that has more than 4,000 employees. NatureVest has helped us structure and close 12 transactions to date and that represents about $1.3 billion of committed capital. We also have Janie Matthew, who's a Senior Impact Analyst and Earth Pillar Lead at Aviva Investors, which is an insurance company and also a global asset manager that's part of the insurance company. Aviva Investors manages nearly $500 billion in assets and it's part of the UK's largest insurance company. Last but not least, we have Oliver Withers, who is the Biodiversity Lead within the Sustainability Strategy, Advisory, and Finance Group at Credit Suisse. He works to integrate biodiversity considerations into the firm's business activities and decision-making. Now, as we approach this conversation and before we hear from the panelists, I did want to just give a couple of remarks about how important this conversation is on a few different levels. There's obviously a lot of interest in the environment and when it comes to investing, there's growing momentum around the need to focus on environmental considerations and environmental impact. However, much of that attention, the way many people see the role of the environment when it comes to investing is starting with a big picture of the environment, then falling down to climate, and then really focusing on greenhouse gas emissions. Now, that's incredibly important and we don't have enough activity working to reduce greenhouse gas emissions where we stand today and it's very critical that we get more investor engagement on that issue given the nature of the climate crisis that we face. The climate crisis isn't the only environmental crisis that we're contending with. We also have a crisis of ecological loss and in the loss of nature and that's something that we're increasingly seeing coverage of in the news and many people are experiencing viscerally in their own communities, whether it's loss of species, damage to the environment more broadly, disruption of ecosystems, and all kinds of effects and implications of those changes. Now, it's incredibly important for us to address that crisis as well and I think part of what I hope this conversation could be part of is helping to elevate the significance of nature on the radars of investors and also help to demonstrate how some leading actors are incorporating biodiversity into their strategies and approaches. And so I think we're going to have an incredibly important conversation and I want to invite Charlotte just to share from her perspective at The Nature Conservancy some of this kind of like broader framing before we dive into the discussion. Great to be with all of you today. I'm really excited about this conversation and also candidly a little bit dismayed that we're the only panel really talking about investing in biodiversity when we consider the depth of the crisis and the the extent of the impact that that's the severe biodiversity loss that we're facing is going to have on our well-being. The mission of The Nature Conservancy is to conserve the lands and waters on which all life depends and that includes us. The ecological systems which represent the natural capital that we're going to talk about today are really what's required for thriving life on earth, including thriving human life and we learned this year right the impact that nature can have on human well-being through zoonotic pandemics and the advent of the novel coronavirus which has transformed how we live. We learned this year how interconnected all of us are through nature because of that pandemic and we learned this year that the economics of our of our life can transform in an instant because of a natural phenomenon. And so I think you know this conversation has never been more urgent or more critical and while it's definitely the case that we need all hands on deck in this crisis and the investment community is only one player on the field it's a very powerful and important one and I know that my colleagues Oliver and Nijini have a lot of really important insights into how they as an investors are transforming their work and how and we at Nature Vesta are working across the investor spectrum to help others do the same. So thanks for being here everyone. Okay thank you Charlotte and I wanted to really start with that focus on the you know kind of the role of investors and you know in just a level set I think we have some people in the audience who do a lot of work around biodiversity I think we also have some we're coming here to learn so just to help us set the stage you know I'd love to hear each of you just talk a little bit about like how why investors should care about biodiversity you know and but from both sides of the equation how does it impose risks to investors but also where are their opportunities and Charlotte if you could start and then I'll work my way around the group but you know we'd love to hear kind of how you see this as an investment strategy and why you see other investors you know caring about these issues. Yeah that's exactly the frame we think about this Ahmed it's not thinking about biodiversity creates a lot of risk and thinking about it creates a lot of opportunity. There's a group Planet Tracker that does a lot of research around kind of natural capital and economics and I was speaking to one of the partners there a while ago and they were doing some research into the percentage of sovereign GDP that rely on natural capital and the example that the partnership with me is Argentina which doesn't hold a lot of foreign currency reserves issues a lot of sovereign debt and doesn't hold those reserves because of the kind of huge influx of dollars that comes into the country every year from key industries like tourism wine and beef. Do you think for a second about the natural capital underpinning those three sectors you quickly realize that there's a huge amount of risk associated with Argentine sovereign debt and I'm not just picking on Argentina but it's just a good clean example around those natural systems and the absence of safeguards protecting them really really creates risk that investors need to be underwriting a little bit more thoughtfully. On the opportunity side there's we've done a lot of work in forest management with our Cumberland Forest project and we've recently launched a collaboration with BTG, Pactuals, Trimbleland Investment Group kind of amplifying that work. Managing forests for biodiversity impacts and climate resilience really helps to drive a more resilient asset base that can create a lot of co-benefits that have some in some cases have revenues associated with them and in other cases really just underpin a much more resilient local economy. For example, managing for outdoor recreation starts to diversify the economic base of the community out of natural resource extraction which we're doing in the Cumberlands. So there's both downside mitigation and upside generation available and I think we can carefully about these assets. Okay thanks for that Charlotte and I think I'd also love to hear Eugenie how you think about it you know working for a global asset manager how is biodiversity factoring into your work and is it you know how do you make the case to investors whether they're colleagues or external partners about the need and the opportunity. Thanks. I think that the way we're looking at it is that the statistics of the places start and scientists are now saying we're entering the phase of the sixth grade extinction. The last was when the dinosaurs died out and the WWF data shows that globally we've had a 68% drop in species numbers since 1970. That is just massive 68% drop since 1970 and another expression I've been working on on a project I've been working on is if there's no nature there's no business we can't operate without nature. All of nature underpins what business does so the risks are existential. Another example on top of Argentina that also comes from Planet Tracker which I think is a useful recent one is Brazil and the deforestation is changing Brazil's climate. It's making it drier, hotter and less predictable. Brazil is the number two exporter of soil in the world and number three exporter of maize and this huge output depends on its ability to double crop so using the same farmland twice in a year and double cropping depends on a stable climate with consistent rainfall and temperature patterns and deforestation is destabilizing that so there are another lots of other examples like the the Australian Great Barrier Reef and the huge amount of economic contribution that makes the Australian economy every year but NASA has estimated that the coral reefs around Australia will just become non-existent if we have two degrees of warming and if they just disappear what will that do to the Australian economy so the financial risks are massive and as a result of that we're seeing other shifts which pose you know more imminent impacts to business like changing regulation and changing consumer habits and just some examples of some new regulation that's coming through is in the UK we've got new legislation requiring companies to do due diligence to make sure there's no illegal deforestation in their supply chain we've also got a new tax on virgin plastic use in packaging so it's going to be comparatively more expensive to use virgin rather than recycle content in plastic the EU farm to fork strategy has set targets to half pesticide use and reduce fertiliser use by 20% and there's increasing regulation a likelihood of regulation in the US and other countries on PFAS chemicals hazardous chemicals the forever chemicals that accumulate in our environment the dascopter review which is a seminal review in Britain led by the the UK government commission treasury interesting with the treasury and not other departments commissioned a report on the biodiversity and economic impacts and he came up with lots of ideas for new taxes for example for tax on people using the oceans for fishing shipping and cruise ships and if companies like that are all companies take advantage of nature to the degree but some of them their business model is very dependent on taking advantage of nature and it's a free resource and if I think that needs to change and so we I think we'll be seeing more in the way of resource taxes and access to nature taxes so that's obviously risk and opportunity for business thirdly the changing consumer expectations I just give one example of meat and there's been increasing recognition in europe and america that a low reducing our meat consumption is good not only for human health but also for the environment and alternative in in britain meat consumption has dropped 17 per cent per capita in the last decade which is quite a significant drop and so we're seeing huge growth in alternative meat products and although they only take up one percent of the global meat demand today they're expected to see 15 percent growth over the next 10 years to become a 50 billion market by 2030 and people will have heard of beyond meat which has seen its revenues grow 12-fold in the last three years so there are lots of risks and opportunities for companies and another example of the opportunities is I always find it amusing that these figures weren't produced by green NGO but by world economic forum which is behind Davos and sort of all the the big cheeses every year in switzerland and they've said that if we become nature positive there are three sectors where we critical shifts are needed to become nature positive and if we make these shifts there'll be 10 trillion dollars worth of business opportunities and 395 million jobs by 2030 and these shifts include ecosystem restoration more efficient and circular use of resources densification of the urban environment so I think we're seeing these sort of big existential risks plus the response which will be the changes in regulation changes in consumer habits leading to these great opportunities for business. No thanks for that I want to come back to some of that that compelling data that you cited from the World Economic Forum but before I do so you know all of our lovely year take you know working at a major global bank you know how do these you know biodiversity considerations factor into the operations of the bank and then how do you see you know the case being made to investors that you work with. Yeah thanks Sam it's I mean just to you know second everything that Charlotte and Eugenia have said there's that macro risk and the micro risk and the reality is that as a as a global bank we operate across multiple jurisdictions biodiversity is is quite strange and that it is it's very distinct according to geographies which makes standardization quite challenging but it does mean that we know that certain markets are going to have more exposure than others and dependency on biodiversity and Eugenia you know reference the the overall kind of loss in species abundance that we've seen since 1970 and the challenge is is that when we look at at particular sub markets regions we start picking up that there are unfortunately some cases where 64 percent would be a best case or good case if you will so I think for us it's about understanding that the landscape in which we as a financial institution operate in is changing and that means that we need to change with that and you know as much as as we are doing transactions that are short-term in nature the reality is that those transactions are driven by our client base and our client base is long-term in nature and so when the those macro conditions start impacting the micro i.e. our clients that's a long-term challenge and it's not just a long-term challenge for us as a bank it's a long-term challenge for all of banking right so collectively we all have a responsibility here to to drive that change that's necessary but as Charlotte and Eugenia have alluded to I mean that's also you know generates a lot of opportunity we're seeing disruptors right innovation come to market where that is attracting capital and that's really exciting where we're seeing if you will environmental entrepreneurs and we need more of those quite frankly but that's another opportunity and you know as a as a bank that prides itself on backing entrepreneurs that's an exciting opportunity for us going forward but at the end of the day I mean you know we all operate in this global economy and we need both the micro and macro to be stabilized and I think that's why you see the institutions like the IMF coming out now and recognizing the importance of nature there is this this massive role in terms of short-term stabilization but also long-term economic growth and that's why for us you know mainstreaming biodiversity and our decision making is absolutely critical and ensuring first and foremost that we are accounting for the risks to biodiversity but also the risks that biodiversity loss creates for our clients and ultimately for us but you know it's a huge opportunity in that this all of our economies need to transition and that transition needs financing and it needs solutions and ultimately we're a bank interested in doing transactions and financing that transition great knowing and I want to you know I'll come back to you in a moment Eugenia about you know to respond to this but you want to pick up on some of the themes that we've surfaced already so we've talked about macro risk and what this means for the global economy we've talked about micro risk and how you know there's specific industries in the national or local contexts that are reliant upon nature whether it was the examples from Argentina that Charlotte referenced or some of the examples from Brazil and we can see this all around the world around sensitivities of agricultural and food systems you know to reliance upon nature so we've talked about the risk side and Eugenia shared some of the opportunity side that was surfaced by the the nature positive report coming out of the World Economic Forum about a you know 10 trillion dollar opportunity just you know by focusing on three areas certainly a conveniently round number but nonetheless one thing that certainly gets the attention about the magnitude of opportunity that we're looking at and yet we all find that there's not enough attention being paid with this from investors and and that's kind of how we kicked off so can we talk a little bit about what's holding investment back you know as you engage with you know colleagues and your firms or and you know external partners what do you see getting in the way of more investment to help you know to be nature positive or to help you promote biodiversity Eugenia if we can start with you well firstly the slightly negative is that you know if you're an investor and you want to look at investment opportunities to restore nature I'm not aware of a large-scale investment opportunity that generates an income it's as simple as that if you want to restore nature you have to pay to do it you're not going to get an income back from it so I think that's going to change in future I think governments are going to realize that to restore nature that we need to tax the activities that are harmful to nature and spend that revenue that tax revenue on on funding the restoration of nature secondly if you want to look at companies and we've been developing a natural capital strategy this year and we want to we've got three strands we're avoiding companies who are doing significant harm so we're screening out companies that are involved in intensive agriculture over a certain proportion of their their revenues and also companies that got a certain they were a certain proportion of their revenues from pesticides and companies have got strong environmental controversies and they've got high involvement in fossil fuels so first of all avoiding harm secondly solution revenues so companies making products or services that are offering solutions to the the destruction of natural capital so we're looking technologies and approaches and products like regenerative agriculture water treatment alternatives to plastic packaging ways to make to reduce the amount of water used huge different numbers of technologies but they're all fairly nascent and they will do provide very small proportions of overall corporate revenue for the big publicly listed companies that we're looking at and then the third strand is that we look at transition what we call transitioning companies so we're trying to identify leaders and potential leaders companies who are reducing they're doing the most to reduce their impacts and setting ambitious targets and have good strong biodiversity policies policies strong zero deforestation policies to really focus on reducing their deforestation and their supply chain but we have had many challenges in developing the strategy number one is the lack of data there is no equivalent of co2 one fantastic indicator that you can compare all companies you know i'm looking to compare 3 000 companies that's what most is in my spreadsheet if i can do that on co2 i can see who's emitting the most and who's got the strongest targets to reduce those emissions there is no equivalent indicator for nature and that's under development but the problem is is that we have so many different impacts on water, air, soil, land use change and every sector has different impacts so for me if i'm trying to compare a bank to a beverage company a bank i'd be looking probably most importantly at its zero deforestation policy whereas for a beverage company i'd be looking at where is it sourcing its its ingredients from what's its packaging reduction policy and its water use so it's got three completely different impacts from a bank so you couldn't you couldn't ever really compare them on the same indicators and now the only real indicators that we have available to us for 3 000 companies even that this is patchy is water use and amount of waste generated and i would argue that actually those are almost irrelevant indicators to compare 3 000 companies on because the water use depends on where you are and the amount of waste generated depends on how also where you are how it's disposed of and how toxic it is and various different things so we have a big problem with the lack of data and there's a huge amount of initiatives underway to improve that situation to encourage companies to report better about the task force for nature related financial disclosure and the SBTN initiative of the science-based targets for nature so hopefully in two or three years we're going to see better data coming through for companies which will enable investors to make better decisions and finally in terms of barriers i think it's also just the company's attitude is it's also a really big issue because unlike with fossil fuels where if you reduce your fossil fuel use you can save money if you reduce your impacts on nature it does generally tend to cost you more nature is free to destroying it is free in almost all situations so companies are reluctant obviously to increase their costs but luckily with the changing regulations and changing consumer demand there's just not going to be acceptable very much longer to continue the destruction of nature and we've seen this example with the Brazilian meatpacking companies that the the three biggest cattle processing companies in Brazil made a commitment in 2010 to eradicate deforestation from their supply chain by 2020 and they they focused on they can prove that how much deforestation goes in on the supplies they buy directly from but each cow will go through five or six farms before the point it's slotted and the deforestation will occur on those first five farms it may not occur on the sixth farm and that's who the company is buying from so they say oh well you know we have no deforestation because they don't know where it comes from and at the moment they just say oh it's too expensive for us to track the cattle through the farms um and even though Uruguay has a system that does it for all cattle it's too expensive for Brazil because it's bigger and therefore it can't be done whereas I think that this is a small example this would be just becoming big standard cost of doing business in the future that that not knowing traceability and the origins of your products will not be acceptable in future and one example I'd like from my own experience was when I started working with a British clothing retailer that's now the biggest clothing retailer in Britain 15 or 20 years ago they had they just started looking at social issues labour standards in their supply chain and they had employed one person two days a week to look at finding all the child labour and slave labour and forced labour and all the human rights abuses in 2000 factories and we were advising them and said I think that one person two days a week might not be enough and they said oh you don't understand you know we couldn't possibly increase the cost of doing business you know we sell a t-shirt for five pounds where do you think the money is going to come from to do all this checking and now I think it might be 20 years later they have 145 people full-time working on this and that's just the employees of the company and they're still making money they're still making all money than they've ever made before and they're also employing employing legions of armies of verifiers and auditors who go to all the factories to check so I like to think that that parallel will happen with traceability of high high impact commodities too and it will just become integrated into the cost of doing business and what's just generally expected. Thank you for this tonight and Charlotte I'm going to come to you in a moment about this point that Eugenia raised around revenue streams connected to restoring nature but before I do so Oliver I'd love to get your take as well you know what do you see holding investors back why don't we see more capital flowing in a nature positive way. Yeah I mean listen let me just start the data and regulatory comments from Eugenia I second completely huge huge challenges but as she's outlined we are making strides to address those it might not be as quick as some of us would like but there is progress and that's really exciting. I think a practical challenge that we face is is just that sometimes we forget that that biodiversity is complex right we are Eugenia alluded to this we don't have a simple metric we've got eight million species plus we're still finding them unfortunately we're losing them at a pretty rapid rate as we've discussed already and a kind of challenge that emerges is that with that requires some degree of innovation and that doesn't always fit investors mandates or buckets right and so you know ultimately there will be a fund what is that funds mandate what is the particular client looking for does it tick boxes and you know we forget that in many instruments that there's been an opportunity for those instruments to grow over time and really evolve over time and for the market to evolve over time with it right so if we consider how green bonds sustainability link bonds have have emerged as a force that has taken time and you know we're now taking a topic that's really complex and and trying to to mainstream it and fast track it as quickly as possible and sometimes that complexity is difficult to to do that quickly also we've got a responsibility here right that we want this market to be a success this asset class as some people refer to it that means we can't afford failures if you will and I think we're all well aware of of greenwashing allegations and and the severe risk that presents to the market not to individual companies but to the market as well and you know Charlotte rightfully pointed out at the beginning of this it's great to be in this forum discussing biodiversity but it's also a bit concerning that this is the only session really focusing in on this right so you know I do think that complexity makes it difficult to fit with investor mandates sometimes and so you sometimes need brave investors right and we need to applaud those people more as well I think also we've got to manage expectations you know we've alluded to the future possibilities and sizes of the market but again it's going to take time to get there and maybe sometimes in our enthusiasm to try and kind of share the cool aid out we can overestimate the maturity of the market you know and you've got to be careful what you wish for because I think we are at somewhat of a turning point in the market and you know serious institutional investors are starting to knock at the door saying we want to discuss biodiversity and that's what we've all been wanting now we've we've got a soul for these discussions which is really exciting and then just the final point is that I think this question of legality of natural capital right we we know natural capital provides ecosystem services it provides climates mitigation and adaptation and it's creating all these benefits crew owns those benefits is not clear in some instances right which means that the the cash flow is that those those services generate it's not always clear who who should be the beneficiary of those and I think it's really really important I go back to this this comments I had earlier around the geographic nature of of biodiversity in nature we have to acknowledge local communities in many instances have rights to to that natural capital as well and so as much as we look for cookie cutter approaches sometimes those those aren't the solutions that we look for and so how do we solve for that legality question and you know it raises this big question for me where is the balance sheet of natural capital and that's why the you know the work that charlotte and and tnc do around the get swaps for sovereigns is so important because it creates an overarching framework under which we as corporates or our clients all have to operate so you know that legality and that sovereign ownership is a challenge but thankfully we are with these solutions and we're starting to see them deployed and that resonates and I think one thing I am here learn clear that I would have this issue and kind of highlighted more I'm at this venue I think one thing I did want to share is that one of the few trips I've made since we've you know been you know living with pandemic was actually just a few weeks ago to singapore to attend an event and to speak at event hosted by domestic called the ghost parody is a three-day event and then a whole day focused on nature and so one of one was focused on climate action one was nature and then one in more broadly and sustainable finance so I just share that only to underscore the fact that this is I think you know maybe unevenly but this is starting to kind of rise on the agenda of you know investors and financiers we're trying to think about you know how to invest in a sustainable world but I also do think that it kind of underscores one of things that's been raised here that you know for many communities they're recognizing that their economies are very reliant upon nature and so if they don't start to address this crisis it'll have profound effects on broader economic stability beyond just what we directly associate with the kind of parks and forests and other things that we all enjoy but you know there's this question of course any investment needs a revenue model and a business model and and I think I wanted to ask you charlotte about kind of where do you see you know to this point about like you know are the revenue models associated with their storm nature kind of how do you design things that allow this to be investable yeah it's a great question and I'm seeing a comment in the chat uh too from lost it um about that um but uh I fundamentally use Jamie's right there there isn't nobody's going to pay you to kind of not cut down trees at the same time you know and this is the role that nature conservancy and nature vests are playing in our kind of conservation advisory work with partners like UTG and renewable resources group is there are ways of doing business that can deliver biodiversity outcomes in a way that where where financial returns are either enhanced or not impacted um one of the things one of the deals we've done in at nature vests is within the marie darling basement in australia where we are buying and selling water rights but also in years of greater water abundance being a buyer for nature and delivering water back into wetlands that would otherwise not be receiving them because of the engineer nature of the um watershed there at this point and so we're we're basically addressing a market failure where there is no buyer for nature but there is sufficient water in the system in these in these kind of hydrological boom years to really significantly impact wetlands for the good uh so it's it's interventions like that that require some scientific and technical expertise um which the nature conservancy is able to provide and and i'm eugenia your story of the the company that's um gone from two to 150 staff thinking about um you know work conditions i'd like a future where every limited partner is asking a fund manager who's your conservation advisor ensuring biodiversity impacts um because that you know i think there's a real role for that because i to your point all over the complexity uh really can scare investors away and even the bravest of investors are stymied um by by figuring out how to how to price biodiversity risk and value biodiversity returns um you know more more directly right managing fisheries well managing forests well managing other forms of kind of working natural capital well improves their their uh health and therefore increases their value right it's a it's a long term versus a short term perspective um which i think again you know partners like the nature conservancy can help investors uh deliver but we do to Oliver's point really need more brave investors i think one of the other things that's really holding investors back is the novelty of the kinds of structures that are required for this work and the change you know the the thinking that got us here is not going to get us out of here and and investors definitely don't like novelty and impact definitionally requires it um and i know no one believes this more than you uh and so that's a piece that i i'm really you know asking investors to me um can i clarify what i'm what i meant before i'm i'm i meant that there's no income stream from restoration projects there's definitely income to be gained from green companies that are reducing their impacts on nature so sustainable forestry but i meant actual restoration so tree planting when you're not cutting them down and restoring wetlands and restoring peatlands and that's what i was referring to you and also for a large investor like us who invests quite a large amount of money and we don't really do venture capital size investments we're looking for big you know mainly public companies that's what i meant no thanks thanks for clarifying and and just building on this point that that charlotte rays and you know all of her spoke to this as well about you know investors want to see things that they understand at you know i am we at the gin we have over 350 firms that are members they include folks like like the nature conservancy as well as huge global institutions like credit suice and and insurance companies pension funds and others i'll remember a panel back when we had in-person panels um one of the cio one of our members is yeah it's a big global insurance company you manage several hundred billions of dollars and very interested in like committed impact investing they've moved several billion dollars into it and the cio is very clear he was like i like four for fifth time funds you know he was like i'm not looking for the new innovative thing he's like i just like things he's like and he's like nothing against him he's like that's just what we can process and you know he's like so we're looking for opportunities that are that mature um obviously that is um you know a lot of these strategies if they're more innovative models that require going to departures from conventional structures um we need folks like him and others to be you know open to and thinking about you know different ways of deploying capital um and that brings me my last question that will kind of go around we we um are running out of time i'm quickly getting some keeping an eye on and you know how we can bring this to a close while covering such a um you know so much content so much kind of territory but this question of like you know what's needed to scale like where do you see opportunities and what would it you know take to get us from where we are today um to where we need to be and and the one one of the good kind of glimmers of hope that i see um as i you're engaged with our global network um as i actually see this coming up on the radar is a lot more invested than we're talking about it even just a year ago um many of our members that focus on financial inclusion or focus on like you know climate strategies are now talking about the need to be more around nature-based solutions or natural capital strategies and you know there's various terms that are coming up um but i think it's a positive sign and so i think the moment upon us is to figure out how do we channel that interest and momentum um into more activity um so it's all order um but i think a good note for us to finish on um and we'll we'll go quickly around the virtual room um Eugenia if you could start and talk a little where do you see the opportunities and what do you what do you think is essential to getting more skill i think um the companies who are doing exciting things in this area with exciting products and services will see a huge growth just like we've seen in renewable energy companies and that will be that will speak for itself people will be drawn towards it and um that will be one thing i think we'll see um great momentum coming out of initiatives like the TCTC TNFD and the SBTN um that will catalyze action we've got the couldn't main conference next year but we'll draw attention to this whole issue um and i'm hoping that there will be more attention paid to this because this concept of taxing uh resources and it's so that the use of nature the destruction nature is no longer free and that we see um um things like red meat and and and and the oceans and use of free resources um that the the economic model has changed so that um that is what's taxed and not actual employment or other public goods um so that's what i'd like to see now thank you and oliver um from your perspective kind of where you seen client demand and what do you think is needed to to scale i mean i think the client demand at the moment is pretty broad right yeah you've got some some some players that have got very niche requirements but that's driven by their personal connections to nature very often right um i think that the the exciting prospect on the horizon is that when we look at uh at the regulatory environment and improving uh to the benefit of nature uh that's going to increase the valuation of nature and you know the reality is is that if we can look at companies that aren't necessarily generating a profit and we can put a value on their equity for their future profits we can start having similar thoughts and discussions around the future value of biodiversity rights and i think that that opens up a really interesting conversation around how do we start value right by this thing today uh acknowledging that we might actually only be able to extract the value from it in the future just like a lot of companies do um so that for me is that one of the really exciting prospects okay thank you and then charlotte you'll get the um the final word we're from the panel say a couple things to close out but but i know you work on this issue all the time um and it's part of your mandate nature best what do you think is needed to scale i think we're getting there i just worry it's not fast enough uh the the examples that we've been able to develop uh in our in our ocean financing the sec you know team in our in our partnership with renewable resources group in our collaboration with DTG we're showing that you know capital can be deployed at scale and the hundreds of millions of dollars in ways that really deliver the benefits for nature that are measurable and meaningful uh what we need now is for everybody to kind of do the same um and i think it's going to be a combination as Eugenie said of this is the winning strategy i mean that i think is the main takeaway that all of us feel right for for this panel is get on the train because it's leaving the station and you're going to be stuck behind in a sort of desolate world otherwise and so this is the winning strategy and it's really on us um in our role to create examples and pathways for investors uh and for the entrepreneurs and the clients to to offer those opportunities as well great thank you well and you um you brought up this topic too that we didn't really get into but around measurement um and it came up early in the conversation um it's a huge topic and i did want to just let folks know that um the impact to measurement and management systems can support to just launch some initial strategies on biodiversity um i'll i'll put the link in the the chat if you um you want to check it out but it's um open to public comment and we'd love feedback and um your thoughts um but that that is another big topic that's really important this conversation as we close this out though um i do want to thank our panelists for sharing their perspective this is an incredibly important topic um i think this is the big environmental crisis that isn't getting enough attention um but hopefully you know will um but the question is time um and you know making sure that we rise to this occasion and move with sufficient speed um as charlotte said one thing i hope everyone in the audience sees themselves as a role as an advocate and amplify our first conversation we need many more investors thinking about these issues we need a lot of problem solvers working on these topics and ultimately we need to change the way that people think about the relationship between our economy and nature um and to one that is nature positive uh with economy can actually help and investment and help enhance our ecological systems on all around the world so thank you all for joining us um and uh i hope you continue to focus on these issues thanks and take care