 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto here in studio with my co-conspirator Scott Bernstein, partner crime, the intrepid Scott Bernstein. I just want to remind everyone, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. Please subscribe to our audio podcast. You can find it wherever podcasts are found. Please follow us on social media. It's a big help when you comment and like our post and help spread the word. Very excited about today's episode. Very timely episode. Very topical. It's pretty much global news right now. A lot of people are talking about not just guys like us geek who geek out about this stuff. But I mean, it's like the Fox News is having like round the clock coverage. Right. Right. So, so we have a cartel episode today. And we have a very special guest, Leo Silva, who was the special agent in charge of the DEA's office in Monterey. And some of our loyal listeners may remember Leo. He's, this is he's a, this is not his first time. He's, we were very lucky to have him on a couple of years ago. We talked about the cartels and Leo, welcome back. It's a pleasure to be back guys. Yeah. Thank you for your time. And we really appreciate you coming back on. We got the OGs from the street and then we got the OGs with the badge. And that's what we try to get both sides. So I mean, one of the main reasons why we wanted to have you back on and we, and we're grateful that you agreed to come back on is as Scott pointed out, this is, you know, a lot of people in the media are talking about this in terms of more from a public safety perspective. Not so much like, you know, we like to geek out about the organizations and territories and how the structures work and these institutions work. But let's just start off with just a basic public safety perspective. I mean, Scott, you want to remind audiences what happened with the Americans? A couple of weeks ago, you had four Americans that were kidnapped and two of them were killed. There's, I think there's still questions about why they were where they were. And I'm trying to be as sensitive as I can without, you know, victim shaming people. But it, you know, to use a term from, you know, the military that this particular incident, there was a lot of shock and awe from the press or the media in America that you could have seemingly innocent tourists that, according to reports, these people were there for some type of, you know, medical tourism going to look at possibly, you know, sniff out good, you know, low prices for cosmetic cosmetic surgery and just get, you know, caught in the cross hairs of this. I consider it narco-terrorism and I think we're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit on this conversation and we'll get more, you know, deep dive in that. And it's just, it's been really absorbed by the news cycle. And then I think there were some others, more recent situations that I am not as versed on. But this isn't, this is a story that's developing kind of in real time. And there are a lot of people that are, I think, and I don't know if this, and this is a question for Leo. I don't know if looking at these more, these recent incidents are reflective of the entire, you know, culture of Americans going across the border to Mexico. Is this something that is going to be pervasive or is this kind of a, they're isolated incident? Yeah, how at risk. It might depend on how risky. So Leo, what are your thoughts on this, like Americans going, you know, visiting Mexico and getting into trouble with the cartels? Well listen, the State Department puts out travel warnings for a reason. And unfortunately, this incident was highlighted because of the video that came out. I think that's what caused more of this shock and awe among viewers. I mean, because there's, you have four U.S. citizens being kidnapped and it's on video. I mean, in the past, that's very rare. You don't get to see that. You know, and unfortunately in Mexico, this happens every day, every single day throughout the country. People go missing, they get kidnapped, they get killed. And because these are U.S. citizens and because they were caught on video, they just went viral. I mean, because we just never really seen that before. You know, and I think that's what caused all the excitement and all the commotion. But like I say, this happens every day with her. There's nothing new for the citizens of Mexico to see this and to be caught up in this. Yeah, that's a good point. I hadn't thought about that. We made, this has become more respectable because it was actually documented as opposed to some of the other cases. And the fact that they were Americans. I mean, what Leo's saying is that if you're a resident of Mexico, this is as you know, as one of the mill of turning your television on and seeing the score of the local soccer game is seeing a story on their local news of a family being kidnapped and people, you know, innocently falling victims to the craziness that is this cartel violence. Right, correct. And like I say, even when I was in Monterrey back in 2008 up until I retired, this was happening every single day. I mean, entire families being taken. So I mean, for Mexico, this is nothing new. But it was caught on tape. And they were lucky that they had that tape because if not, I don't think they would have found them. Yeah, once the tape came out and became viral, people in Mexico started moving and, you know, and then trying to find these these victims. But if that if it hadn't been for that tape, I don't think I think we still be looking for them right now. Yeah, and Scott brought up something else that's interesting. Like so so the State Department has their warnings. But are some visitors more at risk than others? So like what I'll hear from people that I know, oh, well, no, I'm going to resort town in Cancun. Like I'm not I'm not going to someplace that sketch I'll be okay. What do you make of that, Leo? Like, like that kind of attitude? Well, I think it's correct. I mean, you know, the place like Cancun is just it's really a tourist tourist town. Banco in Puerto Vallarta, you know, coastal Alcapulco. Well, Alcapulco not so much anymore. It's got pretty dangerous. But Baja California, all those towns, they're pretty much safe. Unless you go off the beaten trail, you know, then you might run into some problems just like with any city. But in Mexico, I mean, this has been going on for a long time. You know, even US citizens have been kidnapped over there and just never heard from again. What happens in Mexico is the police don't do anything. They don't care. They really don't. And in this instance, I think somebody way up high in the government got these people to move and do something because otherwise they don't care. They're not going to do anything. Yeah, I was going to say, what do you make of this unusual situation where the cartel actually issued? What would you say? Like a mild apology and trying to like contextualize it? And well, they went into, you know, a CYA mode and, you know, PR damage control mode. Yeah, your business just like any other business. Right. Right. What did you make of that, Leo? That is the first time I ever see something like that. These guys don't apologize for anything to do. You know, so it's very rare. It's my belief that they were told to do that by somebody high up in the government. Yeah. Again, I'm not trying to go down a right wing conspiracy rabbit hole here or victim shaming, but is there any validity to the fact that these four people might have been coming over there for things that were more nefarious than just going to, you know, search out the surgery prices? Well, it's hard to say. And the only people that can tell us that are the surviving victims, you know, so it's hard to say. It is kind of strange that once they cross the bridge, the shooting occurred two hours later. So where were they for those two hours, man? That's something that hasn't been talked about. So, I mean, that's something to think about. I'm not I'm not trying to victim shame, either. It's just the only thing that really tell us that are the two surviving victims. I can't. I don't want to sell myself as an expert on this scenario or situation. So please take everything I'm saying, the audience I'm saying, knowing that I'm not claiming to be an expert. But I think I'm pretty sure that at least one or two of them had, you know, criminal records that involve the drug, either possession or intent to distribute. Not I don't think all four of them, but I think at least one of them did, which then also kind of adds fuel to that speculation. Right. So it's my understanding that three of the four had criminal records to the two deceased and one of the surviving victims had a criminal record. But like I say, unless and I'm sure the FBI and the DEA has already interviewed them, the survivors, and unless they make it public, we're not going to know what really happened there. I think their story is very interesting. Now, I would like to hear what they have to say as well. And even let's just I mean, for argument sake, let's say they were going over there for some nefarious purpose. That doesn't mean they deserve to be kidnapped and murdered. Right. Yeah, of course. They're still victims. Yeah. You know, the cartel is very territorial. So yeah, I mean, or, you know, in drug dealers, sometimes they try to rip each other off. Maybe this was the case. It's all speculation. We don't know. But you know, if you go down there to Mexico and you try to rip off somebody from the cartel, you're not getting, you're not coming back. It's just that simple. And it's my experience also that I guarantee you that the minute those folks, the minute they cross the bridge into matamotos, the cartel got a call from somebody at the bridge and said, hey, we've got some people that are not from here and they're coming into the city. Keep an eye on them. I guarantee you that's what happened. Yeah, they have spotters and so you could be a victim of either kidnapping, you know, robbery, even if it doesn't have anything to do with drugs. Right. The minute they cross the border and if you if you look out of place or something, if you look somehow suspicious to them, they're going to know right away. Yeah. And to his point, people should know that I think crossing the border in a town like that is different than crossing other borders where there are a lot of U.S., you know, vehicle and foot traffic going across borders. I would guess that in a town like that, it's significantly less so. So you'd stand out a little more. There is a lot of vehicle and foot traffic crossing the border, but they're all with Texas tags and, you know, license plates that are familiar to them, you know, people that are from that area, Brownsville, Harlingen, Fort Allen or whatever. But you get out of state tags, you know, somebody from Illinois or California or whatever. It's going to it's a different story and they'll notice it. I mean, I guarantee you they're going to notice it right away. Yeah. I think it's, it's, it's good to contextualize it. As Scott points out, it's not about victim shaming, but certain behaviors are going to put you at more at risk than others. This is what we're saying. So depending on when you go, where you go, and what you're going, what you're doing there, going to spring break in Cancun. I mean, I'm not saying that there's zero risk, sure, but it's a lot less percentage wise than going into some of the nooks and crannies of the country that even might be even big cities, but not cities with a lot of American tourism or like Leo saying, if you're not from Texas, you're probably not coming over there. So yeah, you're probably raising the risk factor. Let me mention something else. There's three women that are from this area from the area that I live in here in South Texas. They're also missing down there and they're US citizens and they went down there for, for business. They went down there to sell used clothing and stuff like that that they sell at these open air markets down in Mexico. It's pretty common, but these three ladies have been missing for over a month and nobody's heard from them or anything. And also there's my understanding there's a US citizen that was living in Colima, Mexico and she was taken from her home. And you know, it's just, it can happen to anybody. Like I say, it happens every day over there, but it can happen to anybody. I mean, there's, you just don't know, you never know what's going to attract their attention to you and want them to take you. Is that, is that story getting more attention with the three ladies? Because that's how I became aware of it was through your Twitter feed. Is there more attention to that in Texas? Because nationally, Yeah, hasn't got anyone near the amount of attention. I hadn't even heard of it, so I heard about from you. Right. Yeah, I've seen a little bit more attention, you know, in the media, but not as much as the other, the prior kidnapping. But I think it's getting a little traction. And especially the lady from Colima also, I've seen her on national news her picture out there. So yeah, it's getting some traction. But I'm saying, I think there's a, there was a figure put out the other day that there's over 550 US citizens that have gone missing in Mexico. Wow. Yes. Wow. And what it's obviously speculative, but if we could just get into the, to the mind of these groups, I know in some cases they might kidnap an American citizen because they have some beef with a family member either in Mexico or the United States. And that family, the person who's kidnapped might not have anything to do with that, but they know this is a way to get at someone they don't like is we're gonna, we're gonna kidnap your family member to send you a message. That can be a reason why something like this happened. Obviously, I don't know if that's what happened with these ladies. I want to be clear. I'm just going through a hypothetical situation. What might be some other scenarios why a criminal group in Mexico would do something like this, kidnap American citizens? Well, if they think you have money, if they think if you, if you show some sort of wealth, they're gonna come, they'll probably come after you to try and extort money out of you and your family. So any appearance of wealth is also a motive for them to come after, you know, one of the victims. So that, like you say, a beef or in my case, I've seen my experience. I've seen them, if they like an attractive woman that's walking down the street, just because they want her, they'll pick her up just for those are several motives that they use. If they feel the money, forget it, man, they're going to find you, they're going to track you down and they will find you. If you lose a load of drugs, they're going to track you down and they will find you or your family or something like that. Yeah, I mean, that's something that I think is underreported and underappreciated is the amount of sexual assault that's that's going on down there, especially near like the macchiadoras, like the factories and things like that. So yeah, it might not even be like something organized crime. It might be just thugs. But I also think there's we're talking about contextualizing. I think at this point, characterizing these individuals as drug dealers or gangsters is just it's no longer accurate. I mean, these are fully formed terrorists. These these would go it's go so far beyond being a professional criminal or being a drug dealer or being a gangster. Oh, I mean, these are this is in what goes on within these cartels is in you is inhuman. I mean, you're talking you're not like El Chapo, who's the you know, the most notorious narco figure in the world. You're not talking about a guy who was a mobster that might have been a really bad mobster might have been responsible for two dozen murders. You're talking about a guy that's responsible for thousands of murders. So I just I think at a certain point, the media has to start letting the public know that this is beyond anything that they can think about from a movie or anything that's romanticized about this type of Robin Hood criminality. It's this is this is as bleak, you know, and just human life means nothing. You know, life is cheap as a is an understatement and and it's it's really it it's beyond like it's it's it's epidemic. Yeah, what do you mean that Leo like the like how we how we frame this? Well, I tell you what, it's going to be interesting these next couple of weeks because because I'm the president of Mexico has been hurting a lot of verbal insults over here towards the United States. And and I heard today that the Secretary of State Blinken made a comment under oath saying that he believed the parts of Mexico were controlled by the by the narcos. And I go so far to say not parts of Mexico. It's the elements. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's it's it's going to come to a head pretty soon between both administrations. And it'll be interesting to see what what steps they take, what the Biden administration takes towards this problem, because it really is a problem, like you said, it's it's this is an epidemic. Well, let's let's revisit the episode that we recorded with you before for those our audience that just just watch our videos. Keep in mind, we have other audio episodes with with other interesting guests that you should consider checking out please. And one of these episodes was with Leo. And we had a conversation about one of the groups that you investigated when you were active in DEA. And that was the Zetas. And and if we talk about terrorism, one one thing in terms of the the point of a terrorist group is to terrorize the local population. So in that sense, I agree with this, that that's what's happening. I think I think the definition of terrorism is is complicated. And and that's only one definition. I'm not so sure the other ones, they meet the standard. But in terms of terrorizing the local population, that's that's what a lot of this is about. And Leo, if you could for some of our audience members who who, you know, didn't hear our last episode with you, could you describe some of like the Zetas tactics to terrorize the local populations? Sure. I mean, when I was in Monterrey, they would torture people and then hang them and throw them off an overpass. I mean, like five bodies at a time, just hanging from an overpass. And it was terrorizing. It was instilling fear throughout the community, not only in Monterrey, but in all of Mexico. I mean, there they were beheading people and videotaping it and put it on YouTube and stuff like that. I mean, I mean, just imagine seeing one of your family members being mutilated like that. I mean, it's instills fear. And even if it's not a family member, you're still going to be scared to walk the streets because you don't know when you're going to be a target or a victim. So the tactics they use were brutal, really brutal. And it was meant to terrorize people. It was it was kind of like you said earlier, shocking all kind of thing. And they did shock and it was pretty awful. Yeah, because traditionally, when this was more of like what we think of as organized crime, if they have a problem with someone, they just whack a guy out, right? Or the old way was you bribe, right? You pay the pay the person off. And the Zeta's really represented the correct me if I'm wrong, Leo, a paradigm shift that we're not going to have just an isolated shooter guy in the street or bribe police officers. We're going to terrorize the local government, the local people into submission into submission. And that was pretty different, wasn't it at that point? Yeah, absolutely. They ruled by fear. And you know, all the policemen in Monterey, I'm not saying all, but most of them were on the take because if you didn't take it, if you didn't take the money, they'll go after your family or go after you. You probably might not go after you, but they'll go after your family, a family member. So you really have no choice, man. I mean, these guys have no choice at times. So it's like the old saying goes, plato o plomo, or leather or gold, or silver, silver or leather. So some of these guys have no choice. And the Zetas did rule by fear. They ruled with an iron fist. And if they executed a rival cartel member, they were going to make an example of him, you know, by brutally torturing him, recording it and putting it out for the world to see. Yeah. And one thing we talked about last time is I think this is this is important to understand why they would use these techniques is the early stages, the Zetas were ex special forces or ex cops or ex military forces, ex military. And so these were, correct me if I'm wrong, Leo, these were counterintelligence strategies that you would implement in wartime to terrorize a population of submission. And they and they exported it into into the drug game into the into the drug game. That's correct. Absolutely. Correct. I mean, you have you said counterintelligence, there's counterinsurgency also counterinsurgency. Yeah, I meant, yeah, thank you. That's what they use to intimidate, you know, the Mexican community, not only Monterey and talking about the whole country. So yeah, you had snipers, you had guys that were, you know, counterintelligence, explosive experts. These were the original Zetas. And yeah, and when they wanted to make an example out of someone, they were really good at that. And then what happened was you had this escalation of violence, because then El Chapo, and and the and the Gulf cartels, or no, well, the Zetas started off as a Gulf cartel enforcement wing, didn't they? They started off as a enforcement wing for Ossi Alcáramas, the leader of the cartel at the time. Okay, okay. So but the the rivals like Sinaloa and Juarez, then they had to start establishing their own paramilitary groups to be able to counter the the the the ferocity, the ferocity of the Zetas. When the Zetas were empowered, they those guys couldn't couldn't match up with a man because these guys pretty much had had had the advantage in recruiting of these soldiers. So by the time these guys wanted to do that, it was too late because these guys had already recruited most of the the good the good special forces operatives. So they had a lot of catching up to do and they and they never really did until until everybody started turning on the Zetas and and eventually they dwindled down to almost nothing. Yeah, I was going to ask you my understanding is that the Zetas at this point are pretty fractured that almost like the individual commandantes, the individual commanders are now all basically just have their own crews. Yeah, they're not part of a larger network. Yeah, is that is that your understanding, Leo? Yeah, you know, and that was a strategy at the time when I was in Monterrey, we wanted to chip away at their leadership structure so that it could we could eventually disband them because once you start chipping away at the leadership structure and they get a replacement, that guy's not going to have as much experience as the guy before him. And you keep chipping away at all that stuff. And pretty soon you're down to somebody just who's never pretty much held a gun in their in their lives until now. So you went from having special forces to just some guy on the street, you know, running around with with the gun and intimidating people. So it's a big huge difference. And that's what pretty much caused the implosion of the sentence. I think in some ways, there's a analogous trend in American organized crime in the last 20, 30 years, where it seems to me that a lot of these families right now in the 2020s, and there aren't a ton of similarities between LCN and the cartels, but just based on what we're talking about of the phenomenon with Los Etas and some of the groups that were similar, that in American OC right now, the loyalty is fractured in a family in the sense that the loyalty appears to me to be more towards the crew that you're in than the overall family structure. And you would literally die for your capo, but for the boss of the whole organization, you don't really care about it all. And I see that happening in other, you know, in patches around the American mafia landscape. And it sounded just the way that you just kind of, you know, bladed out for what happened with Los Etas, that, you know, like you were saying about the, you know, you're more loyal to your commander than the overall paramilitary structure. Right. You know, and you're right. I mean, it happened in Mexico too. I mean, back in the days of Juan Garcia, when he was running the Gulf Cartel, I mean, it's like you said earlier. I mean, if somebody crossed the organization, well, they just dealt with him. They didn't mess with your families or kids or anything like that. And that changed. That changed with Asethos when they came out, you know, because they just totally forgot about that rule and just ignored it. And when after whatever is going to hurt you, whatever was going to help them get their, what they wanted, that's what they care about, you know, and they don't care about rules or being politically correct or nothing. If they're going to hurt your kid, they're going to do it. And they've done it before. And is it true that the Gulf Cartel is basically on the ropes too? Right now, would you say? They're very fractured. They're very fractured. I mean, you have the group in Matamoros, and then you have a group here in Reynosa. And then there's another group in Rio Bravo, which is right in between both cities. So it's fractured. It's not as united as it used to be under Garcia Abrego and Ossial Cardenas. Let me ask you a question about criminal justice policy, Leo. Because my understanding is that with a lot of the cartel, even the Sinaloa are fighting each other right now. His sons, what do they call themselves? Los Tapitos. Yeah, right. They're fighting with the uncle and Ishmael, El Mayo. So even in Sinaloa, there's different factions fighting each other. But like from a perspective of criminal justice, Leo, so in the DEA, in some ways you could argue that it was very successful, your efforts, because you fracture the dominant organizations there, the Zetas, the cartels, they're breaking up. And so in some ways, maybe they're not decentralized, they're decentralized, they're not as cohesive. But is there a blowback situation where when these organizations become more fractured, there's an argument that then actually the violence intensifies, because now it's block by block, the different crews with the different commanders, and there's no shotcalls. There's no boss. There's no old school Don who can say, everyone chill the fuck out here. Now it's almost like gangs warring with each other. What do you think about that, Leo? I mean, does that frustrate you? I mean, how do you approach that as a law enforcement agent when you're strategizing how to contain these groups? I would say you're correct. And what happens is a lot of these guys, like I say, chip away at the leadership and then you get to lesser experienced people that are in the organization. A lot of them are young, younger people that have no life experience or very little life experience. And they lose focus of what the real goal was of becoming an organization in the first place. And for these guys, it was making money. And now these guys, all they care about is like, well, man, you know, I'm going to go kill that guy just to show that I'm on this big shot, right? They've lost focus of what got them there in the first place. You know, and it was about money. It was about making money and becoming rich. Now it just seems like that's out the window. And all they care about is like you say, you know, I'm going to protect my little block here and that's what they're going to do. And their focus is something else. It's not making the mighty dollar, you know, as it used to be. Yeah, it's more about like you're controlling your little fiefdom as opposed to a grander organized criminal. The blood loss seems to be, you know, contagious that if that's the environment, if that's the, you know, that's the territory or the terrain that you're walking on and everybody's, you know, life is so cheap. I mean, it happened. I'm sorry that I keep on making these analogies to LCN, but like, you know, when when LCN was at its peak, the power was at its apex, but the body count was also at its apex in the 60s, 70s and 80s. And it was just like, I think in Goodfellas, they had a line in it. Like at first it was like, you know, there was a reason to kill somebody. Now it's just, you know, the guy bumped into me at a party and I want to, you know, everybody's killing everybody. Yeah, so I mean, how do you approach that though from like, I mean, from law enforcement, I mean, if you're, if the strategies are the kingpin strategy, but then you know that the organization might end up becoming more violent and more flippant about its violence, I mean, how would you approach that as a, you know, you were a high ranking person in law enforcement? I mean, I don't know what the right answer is here. You know, I'm really, you know, asking you in all sincerity, like, I don't have an agenda here. I mean, that must be frustrating because on the one hand, you can't sit there and say, oh, well, let's just give the leadership a pass because things will be more stable. So I mean, walk us through those kinds of conversations with your colleagues. I mean, what do you, what are the priorities? Well, the priorities is pretty much to stop the violence. You know, that's the main priority and protect our priorities always to protect the public, right? As a law enforcement officer. So, you know, there's, there's gang strategies that we use here in the United States and it involves identifying all these guys, you know, pick them up for whatever. If they spit on the street, pick them up. Let's, let's get their prints. Let's, let's photograph them and get their history down, right? And that's, that's one strategy. And it's, you got to take it step by step. But once you know who these guys are, and something happens, you know who you're going to go after. So that's just a small example of, of how gang strategy works here in the United States. And I don't know if you could transfer over into, into Mexico, because things are a lot more difficult over there to work. So, you know, it's, it's really hard. It's really hard, especially in another country. It's, it's, it's not an easy task. Well, as you point out, you don't always have the full cooperation of local law enforcement, right? I mean, that's the understatement of the night. Yeah, they're, they're part of the local police are the eyes and ears for the, for the organizations. So then that's just, there's just no other way to put it. That's, that's how they operate. Law enforcement in Mexico is an entrepreneurial endeavor. It's not necessarily a public service or being a public servant. Yeah. And that's, and it goes back to what we're talking about, the kidnapping victims. As a result of that, these guys are unmotivated to go out and find not only these four, but the thousands of people that go missing every day in Mexico. They're not motivated to do that. Well, they're not getting paid for that. They're getting paid to protect the cartel. So, so there's no, there's no reason for them to go out on the street and look for your relative who's been kidnapped. They just, they don't care because they're trying to help the cartel and protect the cartel. So, So what would you be your strategy from the perspective of law enforcement? Let's say you were invested. I know, I know you're retired now, but if you were investigating the disappearance of these, these women from Texas, how would you go about like developing sources and intel because of the precarious nature of that environment? What do you do in terms of trying to find these women? Well, the first step that I would take as a law enforcement officer is their, their, their phones, the phones were, who were they last seen and start trying to go back and trace their phone, their phone activity. And I mean, that's just the first step. It doesn't mean it's going to be successful. And then, you know, we have to rely on our counterparts. And when I was working in Mexico, we relied heavily on the Mexican Marines. So, once we get them involved and they start asking questions, they're pretty good at getting results, you know, so that that would be a strategy that I would use, you know, because kidnapped anybody, whether Mexican or US citizens, it should be a priority. I mean, you have somebody that's a family member and they're the family, if you don't find them, their whole family is going to be fractured. So it's not just that one victim that's going to hurt. It's everybody, everybody, the friends, the family, it affects a whole bunch of people. So my strategy would be to, to first of all look at their phones, the phone activity, and then get with our counterparts and try to actively, proactively go out there and shake the bushes, as we say in law enforcement. And I know we're jumping all over, but if we can also go back to the conversation about the narco terrorism, and I want to see what you and Scott think about this. So there is a push now among governors and attorney generals in the United States and in some cases, Washington, D.C. to not just conceptually as criminologists, but to actually formally designate them as a terrorist group that the cartels. And I would say, in terms of one criterion of terrorizing the local population, they absolutely meet that standard. Leo, walk us through, I mean, what would be the advantages to law enforcement? I don't know how you feel about this. So you could share it with us if you're comfortable. But what would be the advantages to, instead of approaching this as an organized crime problem, officially designating them terror groups and going after them as such? Well, the first thing that's going to affect them is the money. I mean, once you start affecting the money, that's when you start making inroads. So anyone that's associated with the terrorist organization, whether it's in the United States or whatever other country, their assets are going to be frozen. There's going to be action taken so that they don't do business with anybody here in the United States and in other countries. So those little actions have a ripple effect and it will go back to hurt them. As far as using the military, military strikes in Mexico, that's going to be, I don't think we're going to see that ever. But there's other things that can be done. You can close the border or make restrictions higher. But the main thing that's going to hurt them is money. I mean, how does money flow? You need banks to make money flow and stuff like that. So that's where it's going to hurt them the most. And classifying them as terrorists, you know, it's a double-edged sword, man, because let's say they do, the government does do classifying them as terrorists, then you're going to have, if the immigration problem is tough right now, it's going to be even worse if that happens because it's going to give them an opportunity to apply for asylum because of the terrorism in Mexico. So it's kind of a double-edged sword. Yeah, that's a big one. Like right now, they will not accept you as a refugee under humanitarian circumstances if you're just saying we're fleeing the cartels. They don't consider it because they're not, it's not considered a formal political situation. And some people would argue, well, good, like we should have a more liberal humane immigration. I'm not saying how I feel one way or the other. I'm just saying that's part of the argument. But as Leo points out, that can also create other problems from a law enforcement perspective if you're going to have a whole wave of refugees now who are going to have a legal right to political asylum. Right, absolutely. And even back when I was in Monterrey, you had a lot of folks that had the means leaving Monterrey and moving to parts in Texas, whether it's San Antonio or Houston, or even here in McAllen or Dallas, because of the violence over there. But they had, there were people that had the means to do it, that they could come and buy a house over here. A lot of people don't have the means to do that. So they just have to sit there and take it. So one example though, in terms of a benefit though, would be financial, this would give the government more resources and more leeway to freeze assets. Is that what we're saying? I'm not an expert on money laundering and things like that. So I'm asking, so that would give a lot more ammunition, at least in terms of going after the financial part of it. Right. And even now, even if they're not terrorist organizations, they're not classified yet. Even now, I mean, freezing their assets, it hurts them. And then we have a, in DEA, we work closely with the OFAC, Office of Financial, I don't know the whole definition of it, but if you get put on that OFAC list, it's right away, your assets get frozen. Any company you're doing business with in the United States, you can't anymore. So it hurts them. I've seen the way it works. And people would rather turn themselves in to criminal charges than get put on that OFAC list because it affects not only you, but your whole family. Anybody, any relative of yours is going to be, that we can associate, it's going to affect them too. So I've heard that that's one of the keys with, if you designate them as terrorism, you can really put the screws to them more by going after a family. And basically anybody who's connected to the person can be implicated in terrorism. Yeah. In some ways, at a smaller level, it dovetails with 9-11 when certain people were designated terror threats. There's a whole new ball and you can keep them as long as you want. You can do whatever you want to them. They lose all of their rights as a normal American prisoner. Yeah. Which is, by the way, part of the debate. And again, I'm not trying to take sides here just being descriptive. That's part of the critique of why we shouldn't designate them as terrorists is that then that opens up another set of problems. Are you violating people's civil liberties? Yeah. Just because you're related to a narco person doesn't mean that necessarily you are a narco person. But will that matter if law enforcement's trying to put the screws to a narco kingpin? So it could create more headaches for just like the border situation. It could end up creating more headaches for law enforcement, I suspect. Right. And I really don't see it happening in the near future anyway. I mean, when you had Pablo Escobar blowing up buildings and blowing up airplanes, he was never designated as a terrorist. So I don't see it happening in Mexico. He did many, many more worse things than the set does ever did. So, you know, it didn't happen in Colombia. I don't think it's going to happen in Mexico. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, Pablo literally blew up a civilian passenger check. That doesn't get more terroristic than that, right? And they still didn't designate. I mean, one thing I would say and see what you guys think, just, you know, I'm a criminologist and I like these kind of theoretical discussions is one of the reasons why I think they do not meet the standard of a terrorist group, even though I agree some of their actions are terroristic is traditional definitions of terrorism. And maybe maybe that needs to evolve, right? Maybe maybe I'm sticking to this old fashioned outdated model. But traditional definitions of terrorism are you terrorize the population for political ends. Right. With no political. There's no political. There's no ideological. I would say more having to do with some form of ideology. Yes, whether that was political or not. It was political religion. Right. Yeah. That's the traditional definition. And I don't see that sovereignty. You know what? Yeah. They have nothing to do with what's going on with the cartel. It doesn't seem like. Right. I mean, what do you think about that? No, it's not really. I mean, these guys, the only thing they're loyal to is the dollar, man. You know, they just want to make a dollar and make some money. Even though, like I say, they've kind of lost focus of what got them there in the first place. But bottom line, that's what they're after. They're not, you know, they don't have some, like you say, political motivation or aspirations for as an excuse to do these things. So yeah, I don't see that. Yeah. One thing I think back to a parallel with Italian organized crime is one argument I've made. We'll see if Scott, Leo, whether you agree with this, but in the 1980s and 90s when Cozonostra in Sicily and Sicily were assassinating judges, politicians, cops, civilians. Yes, it was to terrorize the local population, but it wasn't for state capture. It was because they wanted the state to leave them alone. They didn't want to run the state. They didn't want to capture the government. They just wanted to get the government off their back. And I see a parallel with the cartels in Mexico that a lot of these acts of terrorism are terroristic acts. It's not because they want to control Mexico. It's because they want the government, the police to leave them alone and let them leave as many bodies in our wake. Let us rape and pillage traffic as much drugs and just, you know, let us be. Yeah. They don't want to. The cartels don't want to run like the electrical grid and school. So the things like the government's Castro wanted to take over the country and they're not revolutionaries. Right. What do you do? What do you think about that, Leo? No, no. But you know what? The police already leave them alone because they're on their payroll. So they're not worried about the police. That's the least of their worries. They might be worried about, you know, U.S. intervention there. But but they've already got, you know, the mayors and governors and some in some states in their pockets. So they're never really worried about. They already run the government and they kind of have sort of a shadow government. Let's say I pay somebody millions of dollars to run his campaign and he becomes the governor. Now he's in my pocket. Now I can tell him, hey, you know, you look the other way and we're going to do these things and he can't do nothing about it because if he does, you know, his family is going to be exposed and so will he. So that's the way it works. And pretty much there's several states in Mexico that have, I mean, just here across the border from us, they've had two governors arrested, arrested for being in cahoots with the traffickers and receiving money and bribes. So I mean, they pretty much already control the government. You know, imagine having a governor in your pocket and he's not going to do anything against your organization. And, you know, it's that way across many states in Mexico. Yeah. What do you think about this more? I don't want to say conspiracy theory, but this idea back to this having things more stable in making a deal with the devil, that there was an advantage to El Chapo still being in power because and maybe a couple of the other dons from from the the major cartels that they could keep things more stable. And so, you know, okay, I'll just say part of the conspiracy theory is that is that DEA CIA State Department and the Mexican government were favoring El Chapo. We know that El Chapo in the war with the with the other cartels because they felt like at least at least it would be stable. Well, we also know that El Chapo before he became this infamous iconic supervillain back in the early 90s. He was giving him. He was giving he was a an opened and fully functional confidential informant for the DEA. Yeah, what do you what do you make of that? Those conversations, Leo? First of all, you know, this idea that the DEA and other federal agencies were favoring El Chapo is I can tell you right now that there's no truth to that. I mean, in my case in Monterey regionally Monterey is in northeast Mexico. And the people that ruled there were the golf cartel in the set us. So that's what we focused on. Now we have an office in Mazatlan, Sinaloa, but it only has like three agents, three agents, they can't do much over there. I mean, they can gather intelligence, but unless unless the government agency, the Mexican government tries to step in and do something, you know, de agents, three de agents and Sinaloa aren't going to be able to do anything. So we need the cooperation of the Mexican government. And we're fortunate to have the Mexican Marines at the time the chopper was caught. So I mean, that was that was just great. It was a game changer. As a matter of fact, in my book, there's a chapter called game changer. And I speak about how we came came to using the the Marines or interacting with them and giving them intelligence so we can track down some of these high level targets. Yeah, we want to definitely before we wrap up, we want to definitely give you an opportunity to talk about your your projects, your books and other projects you're involved in. But I still have some some other questions. So the the UN's global report on narcotics has come out recently, the State Department put out their report. And let me run some numbers by you guys and see what you think. One of the bits of data that came out is that synthetic labs are rising dramatically in Mexico. They went from like usually maybe finding like a hundred a year to several hundred now. And I'm guessing this is this is fentanyl. I'm not I'm not an expert on this. But I'm and and when we say labs, we don't necessarily mean like a polished industrial. It could be a really a what not trailer or a recreational vehicle, right? Like a camper. Yes, that is as often the woods and has been turned into a math lab. Right. So so we so but but either way, it's still capable of of of manufacturing significant qualities of so is that your understanding, Leo, that the that the the labs are on the rise in Mexico right now? Well, I would say in a way, I think some of those statistics are a little inflated, because like you say, if you if you find a cauldron in the middle of the woods, you know, they consider that lab. So yeah, good point. That's not really a lab, man. But there are bigger lab, the more organized like the capital, the high school, they have, they have huge labs that they and they have a lot of land to put these labs in and hide them. I mean, Jalisco is a huge state. And then you have Michoacan, you know, Colima. And there's endless amounts of acreage where they can set up a lab and nobody's going to find it. You know, so they I think they're ahead of the game. Partly Jalisco and transporting bringing in importing the precursors to make fentanyl in Mexico and then distributed over here. I mean, mass mass production of fentanyl. And as you can see a statistics, man, you know, hundreds and thousands of people are dying from fentanyl each year. So yeah, they're mass producing this stuff and especially Capel Jalisco. I mean, they're producing fentanyl and methamphetamine. And it's got no point that it's scary. You know, I've given some talks here and people say, well, what can we do to protect our kids from this? And it's it's hard, man, because, you know, I have a 10 year old granddaughter and they get blasted every day by, you know, Facebook, TikTok, YouTube and Instagram and all these things, which we didn't have as kids growing up. So they have a lot more exposure to some of these things. And a lot of these traffickers are using the social media platforms to get at that kid that's been the ones that are at most risk. So, you know, it's dangerous out there for a kid. It's not the same as when we were growing up, you know. Yeah, I mean, even now, like, I know, like, even if you were like going to use cocaine or heroin or something recreationally, it might be cut with fentanyl and you don't even know, you don't even know what you're getting. You don't even know what you're taking. Yeah. Right. There was a sad story. I went to see this talk on fentanyl a couple of months ago when this lady, you know, we live right on the border here and her son went across the border to buy some medicine so he could sleep better. And he bought it, took one pill, and he didn't wake up. It was it was laced with fentanyl. And here you have this 18, 19 year old kid, his whole life ahead of him. And you just go there thinking you're buying a prescription drug. He didn't go to a pharmacy or nothing. I think he bought it on the street. But still, I mean, you're going there to buy, you know, an oxy or something and it's laced with fentanyl and the next thing you know, you're dead. You know, so it's really dangerous. You can't take anything that's that's sold on the street. You know, some of these drugs can be purchased online. And like I say, through social media, you know, they're selling stuff through social media now. So it's really hard. And as apparently we got to be aware of these things, you know, that are going on. It's just so much different from when we were growing up. Yeah, I agree. And I my understanding is that some policymakers are, I don't know how successful they will be, are trying to put more pressure on Facebook, Twitter, TikTok to do a better job of regulating, self-regulating to look out for these kinds of things. Because we know that the cartels have a presence online for recruiting. I mean, they don't even, in some cases, they don't try to avail it. Like it's pretty conspicuous. Well, I mean, making their own pages and stuff, making the jump to terrorism. I mean, yeah, the greatest thing that ever happened to terrorist organizations with social media. Yeah. It's a recruiting tool in multiple levels. Yeah. That's actually the more common way that they recruit now. It used to be like the mosque, right? Like a centralized. Now it's, you just, you just recruit people online. You don't even have to be in the same community to recruit someone. Speaking about recruiting, I also read an article a couple of months ago that the cartels are now like at the Jalisco and Sinaloa. They're going to universities in Mexico and recruiting students that are majoring in engineering and chemistry and stuff like that. And professors that are chemistry professors, science professors, stuff like that to help them produce fentanyl in Mexico. And here's the goal that they want is they want them, you want these chemistry students and professors to help them, to help them produce the, the precursors. Yeah. So they don't have to go to China. So they don't have to go to China. So they can keep more profits for themselves. So that's what they're recruiting these, uh, high-intelligent folks to do. So it's just pretty scary. These guys, these guys are, they're not, they're not stupid. You know, they're, they know what they're doing and they know how to, how to cut the bottom line, you know, in this case, expand their profits. Yeah. I'm glad you said I was, I apologize for, for interrupting, but yeah, my understanding is that right now, most of the precursors are coming from China. But as Leo pointed out, I was going to ask him about that is that they're getting close to developing the infrastructure where they don't have to, they don't have to import, they don't have to import anymore, which, which will be make, give them even more of an advantage in terms of escalating production. So yeah, that would be, that would be scary. I want to ask you something else. I'm reading right now, shout out to our friend, Yoan Grillo. We'll try to have him on again soon. A great narco journalist in Mexico City has been on our show. I'm reading his book, Gangster Warlords, right now, which I highly recommend. And he writes a lot about Central America. And my understanding is that there's some evidence that coca production is, there's actually some coca production in Central America. Usually it's Bolivia, Colombia, Peru, but, but some of it's in Central America. And the reason why that's significant is, in terms of the immigration crisis, a lot of people assume it's all about Mexico. It's actually, it's actually Central America is where the immigration crisis is starting. Right. And, and specifically not all of Central America, specifically El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. So if they do shift coca production, the gangs there will be the beneficiaries of it. And the gangs in Central America work with the Mexican cartels. So my understanding Leo is that the Zetas had a presence in Central America. And I was wondering during your times as an investigator, if Central America was like on your radar, what was your sense of what was going on down there? Oh, absolutely. One of the leaders of the Zetas, Miguel Trevino, actually went to Central America. And he had instilled some of his his lieutenants to oversee some of the operations there. And he went down there with a plan. And I don't remember the guy's name right now, but where was in charge in Guatemala, of the narcotics flow into Mexico and the United States. Trevino went over there and arranged the meeting. And once they met up, he killed their whole crew, killed them all, took over just like that. He took over Guatemala and Central America. I mean, these guys were not even prepared for something like that. And you know, so, and once he got control of that market, he left his lieutenants in charge there. So, yeah, these guys were, you know, they were pretty, they were pretty, you know, they had a lot of foresight to see how they could make more money or have more control of the trade. So it wouldn't have to pay the guys in Guatemala or Honduras and like that. So they're just always looking to make more money somehow. And what better way than to have your own guys controlling Guatemala and Honduras that we pay them, you don't pay another guy, you know. So it's very interesting. Again, there's a chapter in my book covering that period where Trevino went in there and took these people out, you know, pretty much with the Sethos and they took control of Guatemala at the time. I don't know if they're still strong there. I don't believe so, but at the time they were definitely. And so in terms of the current situation in Mexico, when I get your expert opinion, and we'll talk about some of the projects you're working on, but so we've already established the Zetas and the golf cartel are on the ropes in a lot of ways. My understanding is that the Knights Templar are sort of have also like on the ropes right now. Is that your understanding that they're still around, but they're not as significant? They pretty much got absorbed by Cartel de Jalisco. So either you come on board or you die. It's that simple. So Cartel de Jalisco pretty much absorbed them into the organization. Okay. That's what I was hearing. And by the way, the Knights Templar, that was a little bit closer to the ideological because they had this whole like kind of, and people said that they were insincere and they were disingenuous, but they had this like propaganda thing of public relations that we're protecting you from the cartels. We're protecting you from corruption. Do you remember that, Leo? That was part of their, again, I don't know how since I'm not an expert, I don't know how sincere or genuine they were, but that was definitely part of their PR. I think it was part of their ideal. They actually had an ideal that they were trying to uphold. So, you know, I didn't really work that organization that much though. Our folks in Mexico City were more focused on them. You know, I had my hands full with the SEPTAs, but And then Juarez Cartel is still pretty significant. Is that correct? Well, back when I was in the DEA, the Juarez Cartel was very strong, you know, and and it still is. I mean, we still have a huge Juarez Cartel present, you know, from right across the border from El Paso, and sure, you know, Amado Carrillo Fuentes, he was the one that started the Juarez faction there. So, and then we had Ramíner Reynos Félix up in Tijuana. So, we had all those people, all those cartels at the same time. You know, so it was pretty interesting, you know, those people are not in charge anymore, but I think remnants of that cartel still exist. Yeah. And something we talked about with you last time, and this actually does bring it back to more traditional organized crime, something we talked about with Leo last time is something I think is really interesting, is that the cartel groups are diversifying and they realize that it can't be just always about drugs. And a lot of these cartel groups are getting into human trafficking, extortion, owning casinos, illegal mining, poaching, digital piracy. Women. Yeah. Besides human trafficking. Sex trafficking prostitution. So, what do you what do you make of those trends? It seems like they're diversifying. Well, yeah, it's nothing new. I mean, I saw that in Monterrey, you know, they're extorting business owners, like you say, sex trafficking, human trafficking. I even went to see there was this flea market down there. And these guys even have bootleg whiskey, you know, other alcohol. And if you're a vendor and you're in that flea market and a set of member goes in there and doesn't see the logo on your bottle that you're selling, you're going to be in trouble because they're the ones that had control of all the liquor in Monterrey, you know. So it's funny, but it's just another way of making money. Yeah, that's some old school mafia shit. There was a there's an incident one time we with the Marines, the Marines, they execute a search warrant on the warehouse and it was packed to the gills with liquor, you know, and it was it was a set of processing plant where they would put the logos on the bottles and go ahead and sell them to the vendors. So and then after the vendors sell their portion, well, they got to give a portion to the set of us. And that's that's how it works. So it's funny, but that's that's one of their business interests. Yeah, and I was reading where some some, you know, because it's becoming more factional, that some of the factions are actually making a decision to scale back their drug trafficking because it's so violent and so dangerous, and that in some ways it's safer to just focus on some of these more traditional rackets. I don't know if you've seen that too, Leo. Well, I think they're at least they've scaled back, but on some particular types of drugs, for instance, cocaine, you still see a lot of cocaine coming in, they're still but I think they're focusing more on the fentanyl and the methamphetamine because it's more profitable. So I mean, they're gonna pretty much marijuana you hardly see it anymore, you know, I'm not here in bulk quantities, we used to see thousands and thousands of pounds, you know, the tons and tons, you know, so, but you don't see that anymore, you see more, oh, we see 400 kilos of meth at the bridge the other day. Wow. I mean, in my day, if you see one pound of meth, you were a hero. Now you're seeing 400 kilos at a time. You know, so it's mind boggling pretty much, you know, so I think they've changed their focus from the traditional type drugs like heroin and marijuana. And now they're focusing on the synthetic drugs, the opioids and the fentanyl and methamphetamine. Yeah, I was also reading something the other day that we're talking about labs, even if they're crude, like, you know, in someone's apartment or something, one bedroom apartment or something, but that the cartels were trying to get their hands on some of the local producers in the United States because they have the advantage of them not having to sneak it across the border. If they control a lab already here in the United States, that gives you a significant advantage. You don't have to worry about it getting intercepted by Leo's agents or hijacked by a rival cartel. Have you been hearing anything about that, Leo? Yeah, you hardly see any more labs here in the United States. I mean, at least not here or in my area, in my region, but Mexico is a go-to place for those super labs. I'm talking about huge warehouses where they produce them in mass quantities, you know, so yeah, it's very common down there. And again, it's all about profit. The more they produce, the more money they make. Yeah, it makes sense. Well, Leo, tell us about, I know the last time we talked to you, you were working on a book. Tell us about some of your projects and what you have going on. Right, I'm still not finished. I was going to wrap it up, but I got to ask so many questions on other interviews and podcasts about this one certain incident that I had when I was an agent here in McAllen. And I decided to include it in my book, so it's taking a little longer than I expected, but I'll give it to you in a nutshell. I was running a task force here in McAllen before I got sent to Monterrey, and we targeted this guy named Carlos Landín Martinez, El Puma. And after like two or three years of investigating him and his whole organization, we could never find him. I mean, we ran operations with our state troopers here. We had helicopters in the sky. We had airplanes and all this, you know, high tech electronic equipment to try and track him down and we never could. So one day, I'm having a family barbecue. And my wife says, Hey, you know, you didn't buy corn for the barbecue. I said, Oh, shit, let me go to store and get some corn out, get some ice for the beer too, right? So I'm in the produce section looking at the corn and who walks by me? Carlos Landín Martinez. We locked eyes, man. We locked eyes. And I said, can't be him. It convinced me that it was him, was there was two, two light bodyguards taking care of him. They were kind of like protecting him. So when I'm looking at the corn and I'm in shock because I see him just pass by me. He goes to the watermelon section and buys a watermelon, selects a watermelon, looks at it and buys a watermelon. My wife sent me for corn and probably his wife sent him for watermelon. So I started following him. And at the time, well, you know, DA policy says you can't use your official government vehicle for personal errands. So I took my wife's car, which was a Ford escort with a yellow kiddie sticker on the back. And I started following him in my wife's car. And I said, man, if these guys see me following them, they're going to make Swiss cheese out of me. And it turns out that I got on the radio and called my task force officer from the Cali PD and he sent me a unit and they were able to stop him. And it was him, Carlos Landín Martinez. And he went to jail and never got out. He got life in prison. And he went to trial and got life in prison. So I'm always asked about that incident, you know, on some of these shows and podcasts. And I decided to include that in my book. So that's where I'm at right now with that. That's a movie. You can make a whole movie out of that day in your life. That's like a scene in a movie where you're watching it and you'd be like, well, that would never happen. That's obviously a movie that would never happen in real life. It did happen, man. It's Carlos Landín and to make things even funnier, I was wearing my DEA shirt. Houston Field Division and it has the eagle right here in my shirt and everything. He didn't touch onto it, man. So. Wow, that's great. That's great. Anyway, so that's the delay. That's the reason for the delay. I'm adding that chapter. I feel like I owe it to the people that are missing some of these shows that they put it in there. So, you know, it's a great story. And I think I had to put it in that book. So that's where we are right now. No, for sure. And I don't know if you're at liberty to say yet or if you want to discuss, but do you have a book deal yet or are you going to shop it around or what stage are you at? No, I did sign with a publishing company out of California. So I'm on board with them and they're just waiting for me, man, to finish it up. So I got to get going and get cracking to finish that story. And did Hollywood buy the rights to this yet? I hope they do not yet. I mean, so we'll see. We'll see what happens in the future. Yeah, well, we wish you well. And we hope that, you know, when the book is ready, you know, you'll come back on again and give us an update on things. Definitely. Absolutely. And so anything else, did you want to promote Leo? I mean, I know you're on social media, but you're just doing your thing. Just keeping my ear to the ground and, you know, keeping tabs on what's happening down there in Mexico, especially with all these kidnappings. So, you know, that's pretty much it. Well, we appreciate your insight, Leo. We appreciate your time and we look forward to reading your book. And thanks again for coming on and talking about this really important topic. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate you guys asking me to be on the show. Thank you, Leo. You've done it all. You've said it all. You've literally, I say this to so many guests, but it's true. You've lived a movie script and we're lucky to have you as a guest to share little bits and pieces of your life with us in our audience. The story that you just told, I feel like we could put that into a five minute little bit and put it out on the internet in just that five minutes would go viral. That is a great story. Yeah. Well, anyway, we did get to eat the corn that day, but he didn't get any water. Exactly. Well, thanks again, Leo. Good luck with everything and I'll stay in touch. And we'll, especially during the NFL season, you and I will talk. Okay. All right. Thanks, Leo. Thanks everyone for listening. Please follow us on social media and subscribe and original Dancers podcast, Jimmy B. Scott Bernstein. Scott Bernstein, we're out.